Re: ?OT-Autism vs. autistic traits =autism vs. apraxia

[Guest guest]

Hi Bibi and all!

How do you know if your child is autistic? (Deborah, will we be on

dodgy ground together with this too or what?!)

I used to love to spin and spin around in a circle when I was a

little girl -back then I guess it wasn't considered to be a sign of

autism and nobody worried about it. My mom used to tell me to be

careful though because she was afraid when I spinned so much I would

get dizzy and fall into things. I recall my sister and friends used

to spin too. When they saw me spinning around they also started to

spin. Could I have just been doing that for fun? I also love rides

for example. Did I spin only after drinking milk? It's hard to say,

my daddy was a manager at Tuscan Dairy and I drank tons of milk

growing up.

What you asked is an excellent open ended question that raises many

more. The only way we will know the answer is when we understand the

definite signs, causes and treatments of all neurologically based

communication impairments such as autism... and apraxia too. But

wait -I threw the word apraxia in there -and we were " only " talking

about autism! How dare I when that appears to be not allowed!

(smack smack to me!)

If apraxia and autism share so much in common in today's definition

of autism, then why is apraxia almost never mentioned? Sensory

integration dysfunction can be found in children that are not

autistic, but it's typically mentioned as a symptom of autism. Right

now how come some of the very same signs of autism can be found in

children that are diagnosed apraxic who are clearly not fitting all

the signs of autism. In dealing with a nonverbal child, do all know

if the behavior signs such as a child that lashes out or a child that

withdraws is from autism, or from frustration?

Is apraxia mostly not mentioned because many believe that we, the

parents of apraxic children and the professionals that work with

them, are in denial...really working with children on the autistic

spectrum? Or is the reverse true? That many parents of children now

diagnosed as autistic (or PDD, PDD NOS) may in addition, or even

instead, be dealing with apraxia, but due to virtually no (or none)

publicity, celebrity spokespersons, fundraisers for large clinical

research trials, or government, medical, insurance and educational

guidelines, that some of these parents of autistic children don't

even know what apraxia is?

At 11 months old my son Tanner regressed and lost language, became

lethargic and unresponsive, and for the most part seemed to go into a

shell after 2 weeks of very high fevers. He was diagnosed with oral

apraxia -which explained to me why he had no voluntary facial

movements, and not very much expression in general. He was then

diagnosed as also having hypotonia and sensory integration

dysfunction which explained many other strange signs he suddenly

developed at that time. Because I knew (or was told) he understood

everything and probably wanted to smile and talk, but just couldn't -

I treated him like he understood everything and went out of my way to

give him nonverbal ways of being involved, which in Tanner's case

helped him to flourish.

At six years old now, Tanner clearly is not a child that anyone would

say is autistic today -but what about then? If I lived in another

state and saw a different group of doctors, teachers and therapists?

Would the answer have been the same? And another question-would the

results of how he is today be the same if we didn't treat him as

apraxic and provided only autism therapies instead? If a nonverbal

apraxic child in general is diagnosed as, treated as, and schooled

with autistic (or MR) children, what happens then? Are there any

stats on that? Why does the new division of the CDC

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/programs.htm only mention autism with again

no mention of apraxia?

On the other hand, how do we know if the umbrella of autism spectrum

doesn't embrace apraxia too since it's symptoms are so broad and

overlap so much at this point? There is no argument that apraxia is

found in many autistic children. Zimmerman MD from Kennedy

Krieger who is known for his great work in the field of autism has

said that he now is spotting apraxia in many of his autistic

patients. There's no doubt that many of the same therapies

(including fish oil) that first helped verbal apraxic children show

the same benefits to those children diagnosed autistic -especially

those autistic children diagnosed PDD. Most children diagnosed PDD

once on the right formula of Omega 3 and Omega 6 oils are then

thought to have been misdiagnosed a few months later. What makes

everyone assume they were misdiagnosed? Where would they have been

and for how much longer without the fish oil therapy that changed

most of them in a few days to three weeks?

I do have my own theory. I believe that much of the dramatic rise in

neurologically based communication disorders (a much broader

definition that clearly does embrace not only autism and apraxia in

the current definitions, but dyslexia and ADD as well) out there

today is due to the rise in certain pollutants in our world that

caused some type of environmental damage (I believe neurologically)

to us as a species that will continue to grow generation through

generation unless we find out how to stop or treat it. As I've said

before -I suspect this environmental damage is somehow suppressing or

damaging the myelin in us -for lack of a better word, a new

neurological mutation that somehow the EFAs play a part in helping

(EFAs have remylenating properties for example). Then again the EFAs

also play a part in the genes...

The reason I have it narrowed it down that much to something that

EFAs help with, is how else can you explain why the simple, easy

addition of literally a few drops of certain amounts of Omega 3 and

Omega 6, basically fish oil, can so dramatically change almost all

the children diagnosed with apraxia or PDD overnight -within a few

days to three weeks? Maybe those (in most cases severe autistic)

children that EFAs doesn't " work " for have a different form of autism

than those who have an environmentally based autism or apraxia (or

neurological communication impairment -can I suggest NCI or is that

taken?) As an inventor (perhaps scientists look for answers the

same way) -cause and effect is a big clue. If you understand why

something is helping -or perhaps curing -isn't that a clue to better

understand the cause?

Are the new FDA regulations allowing the EFAs (Omega 3 and I hope small amounts

of Omega 6 too) in baby formula and

baby foods going to lower the amounts of children we see presenting

with autistic or apraxic tendencies going ahead? I believe so. It's

sad however that the rest of the world won't know what we do until

some pharmacy figures out how to create Omega 3/6 oils in a powder

that is odorless and tasteless so it can be patented, sold, and put

into all our foods as they are now trying

http://www.preparedfoods.com/archives/2000/2000_10/0010droc.htm (face it

-there's no money

in telling the public to eat more fish -and the added problem is that

many of the fish out there are polluted with mercury that's in the

water...and if mercury is in the water...what else is mercury in. Has

anyone checked the coast line plants for example? I would believe

that to be an easy enough study -so much so perhaps someone will take

this idea and run with it)

Again either way however -whether apraxia stands alone or is part of

the spectrum. The children diagnosed as apraxic have many

overlapping traits to the 2002 definition of autism and apraxic

tendencies are found in many nonverbal autistic children. So why,

again, is apraxia almost never mentioned (even look at the original

subject name that I changed) and yet appears to be more wide spread

and has and can be found co existing with other disorders (such as

CP) and syndromes (such as Kabuki) and can also stand alone as in the

rare case of those children with " pure " apraxia and no other

issues. Is it due to lack of money behind it as I was told by an

attorney at a large University hospital in NJ before he left to work for a

hospital in CA? Anything is possible -and

I'm open to learning more and hearing how all of you feel.

I love Liz's newsletters -and here is another great one. As you can

see however when you read on...no mention of (ssssshhhh, apraxia)

" Hi everyone!

One of the topics that comes up regularly in chat, through emails and

on our message board is the experience of confusing diagnoses. Top

offenders on this list include PDD, ASD, high functioning autism,

Asperger's Syndrome and PDD-NOS. Once you have an understanding on

autism spectrum disorders, you can sort it out, but most of us are

unfamiliar with autism when we get that first assessment. When the

assessing clinician asks us if we have any questions, we don't know

what questions to ask based on our inexperience so (in most cases;

frozen with numbness) we say `no'. It is then assumed that we

understand the whole thing and we are sent on our merry way.

When we get home, confusion sets in. Does my son/daughter have

autism or PDD? Are they different? Is one milder than the other? ...

To access this month's fascinating issue of the E-News, click here:

http://www.bbbautism.com/vol_6_iss_2_autism_pdd_pddnos.htm

To access the PDF format of this issue, click here:

http://www.bbbautism.com/pdf/vol_6_iss_2_autism_pdd_pddnos.pdf

To access our NEW plain text version, click here:

http://www.bbbautism.com/vol_6_iss_2_autism_pdd_pddnos_plaintext.htm "

=====

[Guest guest]

Hey ,

Don't post this stuff on a day when I have SO much to do - how can I

bore everyone rigid with my favourite , endless theorizing about this

when I just don't have the time !!! LOL !!!!

MY theory!!!

In twenty years time we will know that there is Kanners autism which

has now moved a jot in terms of diagnosis and treatment ( ie therapy

will help but bio-meds won't ) . We will have a percentage of

children who have varying degrees of apraxia some of whom will have

other issues as a result of this ...

But then we will have a whole army ( mostly the increase in the last

fifteen-years) who we will have to find a whole new name for but who

will ultimately be the victims of a syatemic assault . Their symptoms

will cover a spectrum of asd , pdd , apraxia , dyslexia , add , sids

etc etc and each will have a unique blend of these symptoms .

It will be like cancer - that each type is different in location ,

in severity and in effectiveness of treatment ..but the similarities

in causation etc will outweigh the differences .

I believe our children are the yellow canaries of our generation -

you know they used to take a canary down the mine and if it dies it

warned the miners that they had to get out . Our children are the

living , breathing evidence that you cannot use 17 different

pesticides on food without problem , that you cannot inject mercury

into a newborns body without effect and that you can't make children

drink diet coke with excito - toxins in it without doing harm .

Prof Shattock has shown that many of kids like mine do not have a

strong sulphation system - they cannot pee out these toxins like the

rest of the population . They have compromised digestive systems

almost from birth and everything evolves from the gut . It just

happens that my son has this damage and is autistic and

apraxic ...your child may have apraxia with sensory issues BUT I

THINK THEIR SYMPTOMS ARE OFTEN DERIVED FROM THE SAME CAUSE ...damaged

gut leading to intolerance of gluten, casein and additives and

resulting damage to areas of the brain when these substances are

consumed !!!

THAT is why the umbrella is getting bigger and the definitions are

merging - and why what helps my sons autism also helps your childs

apraxia !! And the genetic link - upon which 97% of all research

money goes to is ONLY that my hubby and I have eczema and asthma and

should have realized that avoiding milk was vital for my family !! If

a food makes you do stuff it is not behaving as a food but as a

chemical which is reaching the brain so get it out of the diet !!

OK = gf bread to make, and a whole house to clean so you guys get

off lightly !!

Loved the parents job description!! Especially the

indispensible/embaressment bit - that's my 9 year old !!

Regards

Deborah

I'd rather be on dodgy ground with you than on a firm footing with

most of the medical establishment !!

" kiddietalk " <kiddietalk@y...> wrote:

> Again either way however -whether apraxia stands alone or is part

of

> the spectrum. The children diagnosed as apraxic have many

> overlapping traits to the 2002 definition of autism and apraxic

> tendencies are found in many nonverbal autistic children. So why,

> again, is apraxia almost never mentioned (even look at the

original

> subject name that I changed) and yet appears to be more wide spread

> and has and can be found co existing with other disorders (such as

> CP) and syndromes (such as Kabuki) and can also stand alone as in

the

> rare case of those children with " pure " apraxia and no other

> issues. Is it due to lack of money behind it as I was told by an

> attorney at a large University hospital in NJ before he left to

work for a hospital in CA? Anything is possible -and

> I'm open to learning more and hearing how all of you feel.

[Guest guest]

I just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents worth on why we have lots of

kids with learning problems.

1) I think that parents are more aware of issues, and with the

internet parents have more information and it also keeps us out of

the vacuum. We actually do know people like our children, just

those parents may live across the country or even in another

country. In the past, it must have been very isolating to have a

special needs child.

2) Children are being born and surviving that twenty/thirty years

ago they would not have survived. Women with miscarriages can now

have babies. Older women and women with fertility problems can now

have babies. Premature infants that survive are getting younger and

younger. My daughters would have died if they were born thirty

years ago. They didn't have infant ventilators back then, and that

is how my daughters survived RSV.

3) This really saddens me, but there also a lot more drug babies

then there were in the past.

Even with drugs babies, etc, the other thing to remember is that we

are actually much healthier than we were. People are living much

longer than they use to. I remember my grandmother talking about

how common it was for children to die at the beginning of the

twentieth century. According to her, almost every family lost at

least one child. Nowadays, I only know of one family that has lost

a young child.

With all of that said, we don't know the reasons/treatments/cures

for different learning problems, autism, etc. The medical community

definitely needs to continue to do research into those areas so that

we can better identify who is at risk and treat them. Personally, I

would love for someone to figure out how to correct brain damage.

[Guest guest]

There is an explanation of Autism vs. apraxia at the following link:

http://www.wiautism.com/apraxia.htm

As a Mom whose little guy was originally diagnosed with PDD-NOS, I

lean towards agreeing with what is said within. His diagnosis has

since been removed. As his speech started to come in, the social

behaviours contributing to the autism dx actually disappeared -

mostly coping mechanisms for his frustration at not being able to

communicate.

His overall " symptoms " actually DID fall within the characteristics

required for an autism spectrum diagnosis, so it certainly looked

that way. Once the characteristics started to drop off, we

questioned the dx and it was found to be a misdiagnosis.

Just my two cents....

[Guest guest]

This article pretty much gives out what my sense of how apraxia is

differentitated from autism, but it is funny how things suddenly start

overlapping at the end of it - makes Deborah's statements make better sense

too in a way. Things do seem difficult to separate out. Matching symptoms

and disorders vs. colors and shapes...

Betsy

>From: " apraxiaontario " <apraxiaontario@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: [ ] Re: ?OT-Autism vs. autistic traits =autism

>vs. apraxia

>Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:05:42 -0000

>

>There is an explanation of Autism vs. apraxia at the following link:

>

>http://www.wiautism.com/apraxia.htm

>

>As a Mom whose little guy was originally diagnosed with PDD-NOS, I

>lean towards agreeing with what is said within. His diagnosis has

>since been removed. As his speech started to come in, the social

>behaviours contributing to the autism dx actually disappeared -

>mostly coping mechanisms for his frustration at not being able to

>communicate.

>

>His overall " symptoms " actually DID fall within the characteristics

>required for an autism spectrum diagnosis, so it certainly looked

>that way. Once the characteristics started to drop off, we

>questioned the dx and it was found to be a misdiagnosis.

>

>Just my two cents....

>

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Just a quick question if anybody can answer this for me....

Do any of the fish oils improve any of the outcome measurements (Speech or gross

motor) in Down's syndrome children or other related genetic conditions (e.g.

Di syndrome). Has anyone tried using Pro-EFA or related products in this

group with success?

Thanks, I have a couple of friends interested in trying Pro-EFA in their kids

who have Down's or associated disorders.

Debbie

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I know a lady called Marilyn Le Breton who has written a book about

dietary intervention ( gluten and casein free diet ) for children

with autism and associated disorders ( including apraxia) She had

HUGE success with the diet , so much so that she put her whole family

on it . The biggest change was in her oldest son who has Downs . She

has used EFA's with great effect ( although actually now uses hemp

oil which seems to sit with the diet more comfortably ).

From what she has told me I would say it was worth trying , yes.

Regards -

Deborah

-- In @y..., " Debbie Pietsch " <dpietsch@3...>

wrote:

> Hi,

>

> Just a quick question if anybody can answer this for me....

> Do any of the fish oils improve any of the outcome measurements

(Speech or gross motor) in Down's syndrome children or other related

genetic conditions (e.g. Di syndrome). Has anyone tried using

Pro-EFA or related products in this group with success?

> Thanks, I have a couple of friends interested in trying Pro-EFA in

their kids who have Down's or associated disorders.

> Debbie