Re: Sleep training

[Guest guest]

>Have you read 'Three in a Bed' by Deborah ? I only read it

recently,

>but was impressed. I actually felt it was about so much more that

>co-sleeping and it is very well researched.

>

>Kind of the antithesis to Toddler Taming. I wish I'd read it years ago

now.

>If you'd like to borrow my copy email me and I'll put it in the post.

Yes I have.....

Have mixed feelings about this. I felt pleased that this book had " given me

permission " to bed share, which was a solution for a few months, but I

*personally* don't want to continue doing this. Deborah

" demonising " the cot makes me feel a little guilty about the fact that I now

actually *want* Caitlin in her own bed in her own room and not disturbing me

through the night. If I were to believe everything she has to say on the

subject, I would now be worrying that she'd grow up insecure and lacking in

confidence due to the fact that I " banished " her to her own bed at the age

of 6 months.

However I know that extended co-sleeping is something that works well for

many of you, so I am not entirely dismissive.

McVeigh

Newsletter Editor & Secretary, Leighton Buzzard & District

SAHM to (AKA Tiff Toff) DOB 19/9/97

& Caitlin (AKA Cake Tin), DOB 12/1/00

Photo Album:

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=697874 & a=5085964

[Guest guest]

>,

>

>Have you got access to Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems by Ferber?

>If not I can lend you it should you need it.

Thanks I'll look out for it

[Guest guest]

Hi , I take it you don't like the book recommended!!

>>Have said before that I

>>rather like snuggling up in bed with a sleep suckly baby, but she's 6

months

>>now, and I've been increasingly feeling like I want to reclaim night time

>>for myself.

>

>Excuse me while I laugh. You won't have night time to yourself for

>a looong time. ;-)

, I know, I know. Caitlin is actually my second child - I'm often up

in the night 2-3 times for (aged 2 3/4) as well, but I omitted

to mention this fact! We have had our share of sleep problems with him too,

but as a very young baby we discovered he responded well to the " Babysoothe "

tape, and hence by the time he was Caitlin's age we were having largely

undisturbed nights. Mind you everyone thought we were utterly crazy that

every time we went anywhere where he was likely to need to sleep, we had to

lug this enormous ghetto blaster around with us (we didn't have a small tape

player)! We continued to use this until he was about 18 months I think.

Initially Caitlin responded to it as well, until we went away for the w/e in

March, and didn't have room to take the ghetto blaster with us. Two nights

without it, and the " Babysoothe " tape never worked for her again!

>I got the same talk from my HV, and barely managed to control myself

>from having a go at her.

I think I would have felt the same except for the fact that I *asked* for

suggestions, and this was offered as a *suggestion* only. She's a good

health visitor (I think anyway) as I mentioned before, and made the point

that many mums found it just as easy to continue night feeds and bed sharing

until baby chose to stop. In fact she proudly told me her own daughter has

only just stopped feeding her 3 1/2 year old at night - so that's where

she's coming from.

>Apart from anything, stopping night feeds will affect your milk

>supply. Your babe will stop night feeds when she's ready to.

Think she might have decided she's ready to anyway! She has been teething

BTW.

>Perhaps, but if she starts waking again, please reconsider " sleep

>training " . It's bloody cruel.

Ooooh I'm not a cruel mum, but when I'm screaming at my older child during

the day for no fault of his own, just due to the fact that I am dreadfully,

horribly appallingly tired, I begin to wonder. When there is more than one

little treasure depending on you, it's a question of priorities, and

is at a far more impressionable age IMHO!

>There is a supposed alternative which I read about in an article

>recently, running along similar lines but gentler and not involving

>reducing the child to crying and separation anxieties. I can type

>up the article if you would like me to.

Think I know the one, where you keep busy in and out of baby's room and baby

is reassured that you're still there. This one appeals to me far more - as

I said I don't like the idea of sleep training as it's really breaking the

child's will.

McVeigh

Newsletter Editor & Secretary, Leighton Buzzard & District

SAHM to (AKA Tiff Toff) DOB 19/9/97

& Caitlin (AKA Cake Tin), DOB 12/1/00

Photo Album:

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=697874 & a=5085964

[Guest guest]

This is where I confidently expect to be called a facist Mummy, but here goes,

and it worked for both mine.

We have always had a strict bedtime routine. From the day I came out of

hospitalthey had a bath at about 6pm, followed by last feed (now milk and story

for , feed and story for Kitty) and then they went to bed. Lights off,

door closed etc.

If they woke after that I went into them, fed them etc. but I did not turn

lights

on, take them out of the room, or make being awake at that time a fun thing. By

6 weeks they were both sleeping from about 7pm to 7am, and still do, unless they

are ill. Infact seems to need even more sleep - we start the bedtime

routine at 6pm and often be doesn't wake until 8 or 8.30am.

I know that this sounds like parenting from the dark ages, but if I hadn't had

my

sleep, and my evenings to myself I'd have gone totally loopy.

> >Last week saw me at the end of my tether with sleepless nights. Caitlin had

> >been in a pattern of waking 2-3 hourly at night since about 8 weeks old, and

> >I had not had a decent nights sleep for months.

>

--

Dick,

SAHM to (7/4/97) and Kitty (22/7/99)

and wife of (26/9/66)

Newsletter Editor, Advertising manager

MSLC Rep - Alton, Bordon and District

See pictures of us all at:

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=848605

Password: Wisley

[Guest guest]

Would you like to elaborate???

Carr

SAHM to four boys

Sunbury & Shepperton Branch

Trainee ANT & Mem Sec

Re: Sleep training

On Mon, 10 Jul 2000 22:15:14 +0100, " Carr "

wrote:

>Have you got access to Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems by Ferber?

Oh god. :-(

--

Clare Lusher.

www.yum.org/clare

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[Guest guest]

You took the words right out of my mouth (or out of my keyboard?), Clare.

People do have a lot of success with 'Ferberizing' their babies, but I

don't think I could handle it and am pretty sure it wouldn't work for

Calvin. It just seems sort of cruel to go to a crying baby and pat them

and say go to sleep, instead of picking them up, which is all they're

asking for. The few times that I thought I was going to strangle Calvin if

he cried one more time and then he cried, I did let him cry for a few

minutes, went in to calm him a few times, let him cry again, and all he

did was get louder and more frantic and it broke my heart.

That said, it does work for lots of babies and parents. Ferber himself,

has said that it does NOT work for all children and if your baby does not

settle down fairly quickly with his method to NOT use it. (see the New

Yorker article below)

Here are a few links that I have been given over the past few months:

http://www.pathfinder.com/ParentTime/sears/qas/sears021400.html (the

Sears' take on family bed, crying, etc. They're very pro co-sleeping. They

also have a book called 'Nighttime Parenting' which helped me get through

those first few sleepless months and made me feel comfortable having

Calvin in our bed. They say to keep the baby there unless one or more of

you doesn't like it anymore, but fail to give advice on how to move the

baby to its own bed...)

http://boards.parentsplace.com/messages/get/ppsleep16/38.html (an article

from the New Yorker, with comments on family bed and the author's meeting

with Ferber)

http://www.babycenter.com/essay/8039.html (One mother's diary on how they

got their 15 month old to sleep through. It involved a lot of crying,

apparently, but they didn't leave the child alone)

http://boards.parentsplace.com/messages/get/ppsleep20/8.html(lots of links

on several different methods, plus you can read any of te other

ParentsPlace Sleep board archives and ask any questions, etc.)

Hope some of these help.

Phyllis (co-sleeping mother of Calvin, 6 months, but I'd like him to not

hate his cot so much...)

On Mon, 10 Jul 2000 22:15:14 +0100, " Carr "

wrote:

>Have you got access to Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems by

Ferber?

Oh god. :-(

--

Clare Lusher.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I think Ferberizing is hated in the attachment parenting circles, although I

think it is very much misrepresented.

Joyce

============

http://clik.to/ourphotos

> Would you like to elaborate???

>

> >Have you got access to Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems by

Ferber?

>

> Oh god. :-(

> --

[Guest guest]

I'm not very good in the martyr role, especially when deprived of sleep! I

found an approach that worked for me and we were all happier for it.

Obviously don't do it if you don't feel like it, but it certainly wasn't a

quick fix for my children: DS1 is now 8 1/2 and I only had to go through

three nights of getting up and checking every few minutes. I found he was so

much better for not being so tired during the day too. Overall, I don't

think that was being too cruel.

Carr

SAHM to four boys

Sunbury & Shepperton Branch

Trainee ANT & Mem Sec

[Guest guest]

Just for the record

This isn't what I was considering doing...

From :

>I think of it this way: it goes against every instinct I have to

>leave my child alone in a room, crying and screaming his heart out,

>until he reaches the point where he can cry no longer and gives in

>to sleep. It is abandonment in the child's eyes.

This is...!!

From ina:

> slept in our

>bed and fed at night until 14 months. Then he went into his own room and

>cot. We didn't treat him cruelly - my husband would get up with him when

he

>cried, cuddle him, put on his tape etc and even lie down with him on the

>spare bed. He got all the love and attention he needed and soon started

>sleeping better.

McVeigh

Newsletter Editor & Secretary, Leighton Buzzard & District

SAHM to (AKA Tiff Toff) DOB 19/9/97

& Caitlin (AKA Cake Tin), DOB 12/1/00

Photo Album:

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=697874 & a=5085964

[Guest guest]

Hannah,

aha! Okay, further to everyone's help on this subject a few

months back when my Verity (don't we have good taste in girl baby

names :-) moved out of her moses basket and into her cot. You

said:

> We have a large cot-bed with the side taken off butted up

against our double

> to give us a bit of extra room,

okay, so do we. But (and this is where you all burst out

laughing and realise that I really am as dizzy as I sound) Verity

is head to toe with me! I couldn't figure out how I could have

her in the 'feet to foot' position any other way. So her little

feet are in line with my pillow and when she wakes to feed, I sit

up, grab her and feed her.

My question is, if I am to turn her around so she doesn't think

she's a bat or a vampire (!), how do I solve the quilt issue? Do

you not use a quilt? Does your little one have her own sheet?

Am I being incredibly thick? (!!)

(clueless)

[Guest guest]

ina said

> Hope this helps. PS got a lot of this stuff from a Sears

> book, who is very good about doing what is working for you as a

family, not

> leaving to cry but providing alternative care, i.e. dh. I

think it's called

> " The Baby Book " .

I got this from Amazon a while back. I expected the Sears book

to be very prescriptive and didactic, in line with a lot of what

I'd read (on newsgroups/bulletin boards/websites) about what did

and didn't constitute 'AP'. In fact I found it to be pretty

balanced and as you say focused on what works for you as a

family.

[Guest guest]

May I quote one of my favourite links on the subject :-

www.naturalchild.org/research/harvard_attention.html

I have co-slept with Verity since birth and it works very well for us. I lay

down with her at around 7pm and feed her to sleep, she usually sleeps until

around midnight when I go to bed, (so I get evenings to myself) and I think

she still wakes and feeds a few times but I am so used to it that I don't

even notice anymore.

We have a large cot-bed with the side taken off butted up against our double

to give us a bit of extra room, but when the new baby arrives I intend to

get rid of the base and get another double mattress and sew some double

sheets together and voila! Huge family bed.

I felt the opposite to some of you with older children, co-sleeping was the

only way to manage to get enough sleep and still be sane for the others. I

never had to get up at night and have only suffered from lack of sleep a

couple of times in the last two years.

I know everyone is different but it works for us.

Hannah, 26

Mum to Bethany 6, Lawrence 4 1/2, Verity 2 and Baby No.4 due Feb 2001

>

> Ooh, you got there before me with the links ! ;-) Excellent stuff.

>

> [...]

> >Hope some of these help.

> >

> >Phyllis (co-sleeping mother of Calvin, 6 months, but I'd like him to not

> >hate his cot so much...)

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

ina, thanks for sharing in your recent post, it sounds exactly like my

situation. Harry is 20 months old and *needs* me to go to sleep, well he

likes a booby to go to sleep with. I then creep out of the room and have

some time with my DH. However, if he wakes and finds I am not there,

there's hell to pay. He wakes me sometimes three times a night for a feed,

but recently not so much. DH has given up sleeping with us now, esp. due to

his work commitments. Unfortunately I feel like poo most of the time and

this has a knock-on effect on the relationships in our household.

I would like to forward your reply to my husband to read at work (if you

permit) and we'll discuss it further. I think I shall also have a nose

around for " The Baby Book " .

Personally sleep training isn't for me and I have tried, but I put this down

to my own background and bad childhood. I know that most of my friends have

used sleep trained their babes successfully and have the most delightful

children, especially our Carr whose little is a dream.

Many thanks,

[Guest guest]

,

Took me a few minutes to work out what you meant! How old is Verity? 6

months? I wouldn't worry about the feet-to-foot thing at all. I think it is

a very good idea for very young babies sleeping in a cot away from their

parents where they are likely to become covered and overheated and no one

will know, but Verity is right by you , you would know and see if she got

covered over, and she is also old enough to kick off covers if she got too

hot.

My Verity (yes we do have good taste in names!) does have her own sheets and

blankets and when I lay down with her to feed her off to sleep I lay half in

the cot with her (our mattress and hers are exactly the same height). In the

night she justs shifts over to me when she's thirsty and fairly recently

she's started rolling back again when she's finished . Occasionally I'll

wake up with her feet in my ribs and I just shift her back over a bit. She

never really seems to get covered with our quilt much and as co-sleeping

helps keep the baby's temperature regulated I don't think it's as much of a

worry anyway as I said before.

One thing I did find a bit problematic when my Verity was your Verity's age

was a safe place to sleep for daytime naps as I would be forever checking

that she wasn't about to roll off the bed. I think I used to put her in the

travel cot for a while until she learned how to get off the bed.

Hannah, 26

Mum to Bethany 6, Lawrence 4 1/2, Verity 2 and Baby No.4 due Feb 2001

> Hannah,

>

> aha! Okay, further to everyone's help on this subject a few

> months back when my Verity (don't we have good taste in girl baby

> names :-) moved out of her moses basket and into her cot. You

> said:

>

> > We have a large cot-bed with the side taken off butted up

> against our double

> > to give us a bit of extra room,

>

> okay, so do we. But (and this is where you all burst out

> laughing and realise that I really am as dizzy as I sound) Verity

> is head to toe with me! I couldn't figure out how I could have

> her in the 'feet to foot' position any other way. So her little

> feet are in line with my pillow and when she wakes to feed, I sit

> up, grab her and feed her.

>

> My question is, if I am to turn her around so she doesn't think

> she's a bat or a vampire (!), how do I solve the quilt issue? Do

> you not use a quilt? Does your little one have her own sheet?

> Am I being incredibly thick? (!!)

>

> (clueless)

[Guest guest]

>

> >We have a large cot-bed with the side taken off butted up against our

> double

> >to give us a bit of extra room, but when the new baby arrives I intend to

> >get rid of the base and get another double mattress and sew some double

> >sheets together and voila! Huge family bed.

>

>

> You obviously have a far bigger bedroom than we have!

>

>

Only a small room really, it will entail taking off the bedroom door and

rehanging so that it opens outwards rather than inwards. Most of the floor

space will be mattress but it's not like we use the room for anything else

so I think it should work.

Hannah, 26

Mum to Bethany 6, Lawrence 4 1/2, Verity 2 and Baby No.4 due Feb 2001

[Guest guest]

......Hannah writes: get another double mattress and sew some double

>sheets together and voila! Huge family bed.

Wow, Hannah, this is wonderful, a real 'bed' room.

Barbara

[Guest guest]

following this message I wrote last night:

> Oh hooray, thanks for all this, I feel much better! I'm off to

> bed now to turn her the right way round and feed her lying down

> when she wakes up tonight!

pleased to report that we had a lovely night's sleep...she woke

at 5ish, fed lying down while I snoozed and now here I am feeling

I've had a really good sleep! Thanks for your help, Hannah

:-))))

[Guest guest]

> Wow, Hannah, this is wonderful, a real 'bed' room.

Like those wet room bathrooms.

[Guest guest]

Apparently there's an article about leaving babies to cry in todays Daily

Mail. Haven't read it though.

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:35:35 +0100, " Lynda Garland "

wrote:

>OK I'm probably being really stupid here, but how do you put a baby to bed

>when they co-sleep? Do you keep the baby up until you go to bed, put them

>in your bed at their bedtime and join them later, both go to bed

>early......?

I finally realised at week 6 that Dan wasn't going to sleep in his

moses basket any longer. I learned to nurse him to sleep in bed and

then position him on my tummy where he would happily sleep for up to

9 hours (at 6 weeks, didn't last). My poor back. I then learned to

get Dan from my tummy to a position lying on his side in the bed

next to me without waking him - simply slipped him gently down to my

side. That was the only way I was going to get any sleep in the

first 4-5 months. Still is.

I can now put him in the bed in this way and get out quietly, close

the bedroom door and leave him there until I'm ready to go to bed

myself. He's only stopped waking when I get out of bed in the last

month, so time to myself (or time with SO) at night is still a

novelty at the moment !

>I put DS4 in his cot next to my bed at about 9ish and get on with jobs and

>do email until midnight or so before I go to bed. When DS4 wakes for a feed

>he comes in with me and generally stays there for the rest of the night

>feeding when he wants. Is this co-sleeping?

I would say yes.

Cheers,

--

Clare Lusher.

www.yum.org/clare

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 11 Jul 2000 20:33:01 +0100, " McVeigh "

wrote:

>Just for the record

>This isn't what I was considering doing...

I realise that - you stated as much anyway.

That was my take on what sleep training ( " controlled crying " ,

" crying it out " ) is and does. Sorry if I offended you or anyone

else.

ina's account of how she got her sleeping in his cot

through the night was an example of a much gentler way of doing so,

plus it was done at 14 months, which is an age where I would

consider it to be much less traumatic for a child to learn to sleep

in his/her own room alone. It wasn't what I would call " sleep

training " anyway. If only I had such a wonderful DH as ina

does !

--

Clare Lusher.

www.yum.org/clare

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:45:58 +0100, " Hannah Hamer "

wrote:

>One thing I did find a bit problematic when my Verity was your Verity's age

>was a safe place to sleep for daytime naps as I would be forever checking

>that she wasn't about to roll off the bed. I think I used to put her in the

>travel cot for a while until she learned how to get off the bed.

Once Dan started rolling, and then crawling (he did fall out twice,

in one week), we got a bed guard for one side. The Brio cot is on

the other side of the bed. He hasn't fallen out since. :-)

As a matter of interest, at what age did Verity learn how to get off

the bed herself ?

--

Clare Lusher.

www.yum.org/clare