Re: Spreading Cancer

[Guest guest]

Quill,

One way to deal with the low probability of locally spreading prostate

cancer (PCa) should your biopsy turn out to be positive, is to chose

the type of PCa treatment that effectively deals with microscopic

cancer that may have already escaped your prostate. You can look up

your likelihood of already having PCa outside your prostate even before

you have your biopsy by just assuming different Gleason values to go

along with your PSA level and your digital rectal exam (DRE) staging

estimate. Just search the internet for s Hopkins Partin Tables and

find one of the references with a look up table. About 20%-30% of men

with a PSA of 6-10 and a Gleason of 3+3 will have some PCa outside

their prostate so you would need to deal with that any ways (of course

that also means 70% to 80% don't have PCa outside their prostate).

Carl

P.S. If you can't find the look up table just send me your PSA and

Staging numbers and I will look it up for you. If you don't know your

Staging estimate just use T1c as a starting point.

Quill wrote:

Hi Folks here I wanted again to thank you for all your

support in helping me deal with having this Biopsy next month. What I

am really concerned with is if the Biopsy could cause cancer or if I do

have it could it spread it to other places of my body by having the

biopsy. I booked it for March 8th. At any rate, still major scared but

will do it. Thanks again.

[Guest guest]

Hmmm I am lost a touch now as I have to say I am not up on these things but I

also should say I am learning. My PSA a year ago was 2.19 this year it us to

2.79 then just three months later it is now up to 3.01. Not sure if me being on

a new diet might have changed the last one or not. I don't know what my staging

unit is though or what that is even about. Sorry for not knowing these things.

They did find a hardness on one side the specialist said and that is the reason

for the biopsy. For most parts there is not much one can do without having the

biopsy I suppose. So that is why it is booked along with help here from the

group. Just a touch scared I guess. Hard for me even saying that as I was

raised not to show my emotions sign of weakness. Did me well for a good number

of years I have to say that and still does to some extent but now this came

along has me a bit worried. Well rambled on here enough, get back to my shop

work keeps my mind on the straight and narrow. Cold here today down to minus 10

and snowing. Thanks

>

> >

> >

> > Hi Folks here I wanted again to thank you for all your support

> > in helping me deal with having this Biopsy next month. What I am

> > really concerned with is if the Biopsy could cause cancer or if I do

> > have it could it spread it to other places of my body by having the

> > biopsy. I booked it for March 8th. At any rate, still major scared but

> > will do it. Thanks again.

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

There may not be a reason to worry. Many things can affect the PSA including having sex or exercising up to 48 hours ahead of the test or even if he did a DRE BEFORE the blood work up. Know a man who had a rising PSA and I asked him what type of exercise he did the day before. Turns out that he rode his bike 20 miles and had sex that morning. The next test had a drastic drop! The mass is a concern but it could be something as simple as atrophy in the prostate. Don't worry yourself sick about it.Steve Snna, AR

[Guest guest]

Quill wrote:

> Hi Folks here I wanted again to thank you for all your

> support in helping me deal with having this Biopsy next month.

> What I am really concerned with is if the Biopsy could cause

> cancer or if I do have it could it spread it to other places of

> my body by having the biopsy. I booked it for March 8th. At

> any rate, still major scared but will do it. Thanks again.

>

,

Studies have been done about the possibility of spreading cancer

by " needle tracking " . I did a search for these once on PubMed

and read the abstracts. It turns out that, although the

possibility of cancer cells being pulled out of the prostate by

biopsy needles is not zero, it is very, very small. If you

search the web for " needle tracking " you'll find thousands of

postings by alarmists who quote each other and build up some

hysteria about this, but the scientific studies do not support

them.

Furthermore, although it is slightly possible for cancer cells to

be pulled out of the prostate in this way, I'm not sure that

anyone has documented a case of such cells establishing

themselves outside the prostate and surviving as metastatic

cancer. For that to happen, as I understand it, the cells would

already have to have metastatic characteristics, in which case

you would probably already have micrometastases.

I must qualify all of the above by saying that I am not a doctor

or scientist and my understanding of the situation could well be

wrong. But in my layman's opinion (and obviously also in the

opinion of your doctors) I think you would place yourself at far

greater risk by avoiding the biopsy than by having it.

Alan

[Guest guest]

This subject has been raised many times

over the years since I took a personal interest in such issues, but it is some

time since I looked into it at any depth, mainly because I came to a conclusion

and decided that unless I came across further evidence, I would not waste more

time on the subject. My main reason for

coming to this conclusion is simple (like me!). Every year there are more than a

million prostate biopsy procedures carried out in the US. If this procedure

led to the development of more cancers or spread the disease then we would

e xpect to see more and more cases being diagnosed and more and more of them

would have metastasized disease. But precisely the opposite has happened the incidence

of prostate cancer has been steadily falling for years and the majority of diagnoses

are for early stage disease. As I say, that’s my personal take, nt based on

any studies on the subject, but just applying a bit of common sense.

If you are interested in the more ‘scientific’

approach, read on:

The first study I saw on this subject was done in 1991 and concluded that

cancer cells might well be deposited in the needle tracks – and circulate

in the bloodstream afterwards (1). The general view in discussions was that

these cells would not ‘take root’ so to speak and develop into

metastasised disease. As far as I know the study has never been repeated and

there have never been any follow up studies that indicates this is a problem.

Dr Walsh, who was a participant in this study, refutes the implications of the

study in his book and writings. In " Dr. Walsh's Guide to Surviving

Prostate Cancer " he responds to the question " If I have cancer, will

the biopsy spread it? " by saying " ...the good news is that there is

no evidence that this is has ever happened. " He emphasizes his response by

putting it in italics. He clearly doesn't want to convey the idea that there's

a problem, but you have to be careful in understanding that like the well known

quote “I did not have sex with this woman” words can be very

carefully chosen – and the lack of ‘evidence’ may simply mean

that no one has looked for it.

So, while it's true that this is the only study to show spread of cancer along

biopsy tracks after transrectal biopsy, scattered reports of tumor seeding

along transperineal biopsy tracks have appeared for more than 25 years (2-9 ),

including a report of tumor recurrence along such a track 14 years after a

prostatectomy (10 ).

(1) J Urol 1991 May;145(5):1003-7 Needle biopsy associated tumor tracking of

adenocarcinoma of the prostate. Bastacky SS, Walsh PC, Epstein JI. Department

of Urology, s Hopkins University

School of Medicine, Baltimore, land.

We reviewed 350 previously biopsied completely submitted clinical stage B

radical prostatectomy specimens resected between January 1, 1987 and December

31, 1988 in an attempt to identify the incidence of needle biopsy associated

tumor tracking into periprostatic soft tissue. We identified 7 cases (2.0%) of

needle biopsy associated tumor tracking, 3 in which the only tumor penetration

in the gland was limited to the needle track. The maximal soft tissue extension

from the biopsy site ranged from 0.1 to 1.2 cm. and approached the nearest soft

tissue margin to within 0.5 mm. in 4 cases. In contrast to prior reports

showing clinically evident tracking only with transperineal biopsies from high

grade tumors, 6 of our 7 cases were of intermediate grade (in the glandular and

tracking components) and 6 had transrectal biopsies. Needle biopsy associated

tumor tracking occurred with core (14 gauge) and biopsy gun needles (18 gauge).

An additional 13 cases (3.7%) showed some features of needle biopsy associated

tumor tracking but they were equivocal. These findings have significant

implications in light of recent proposals advocating serial mapping of prostate

cancer using the biopsy gun with potential conservative observation of smaller

tumors.

(2)Urology 1976 Nov;8(5):513-5 Perineal seeding of prostatic carcinoma after

needle biopsy. Addonizio JC, Kapoor SN. " We recommend that a sterilizing

dose of radiotherapy be given to the perineum after perineal needle

biopsy. "

(3) Urology 1986 Jun;27(6):548-9 Extension of carcinoma of prostate along

perineal needle biopsy tract. Emtage JB, -Marrero R.

(4)J Surg Oncol 1987 Jul;35(3):184-91 Seeding and perineal implantation of

prostatic cancer in the track of the biopsy needle: three case reports and a

review of the literature. Haddad FS, Somsin AA. (subcutanous tumor nodule after

0.34% of biopsies)

(5)Urology 1989 Jan;33(1):59-60 Late appearance of perineal implantation of

prostatic carcinoma after perineal needle biopsy. Greenstein A, et al. Tel Aviv University, Israel.

(6)J Urol 1989 Jul;142(1):86-8 Risk factors for perineal seeding of prostate

cancer after needle biopsy. Moul JW, et al. Walter Army Medical Center, Washington,

D.C. (perineal seeding in 1% of positive biopsies)

(7)Eur Urol 1990;17(2):189-92 Perineal prostatic tumour seedling after

'Tru-Cut' needle biopsy: case report and review of the literature. PG,

Peeling WB. Newport, UK.

(8)Urol Int 1990;45(6):370-1 Perineal seeding of prostatic carcinoma after

Trucut biopsy. Baech J, et al. Copenhagen,

Denmark.

(9)Int Urol Nephrol 1996;28(1):87-90 Perineal prostatic cancer seeding

following Urocut needle biopsy. Szentgyorgyi E. Vac, Hungary.

(10)Urology 1998 Jan;51(1):158-60 Perineal seeding of prostate cancer as the

only evidence of clinical recurrence 14 years after needle biopsy and radical

prostatectomy: molecular correlation. Moul JW, et al. Walter

Army Medical Center, Washington,

DC, USA

Hope this helps and doesn’t confuseJ

All the best

Prostate men need enlightening, not

frightening

Terry Herbert - diagnosed in 1996 and

still going strong

Read A Strange Place for unbiased information at http://www.yananow.org/StrangePlace/index.html

From: ProstateCancerSupport [mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of Quill

Sent: Tuesday, 8 February 2011

1:37 AM

To: ProstateCancerSupport

Subject:

Spreading Cancer

Hi Folks here I wanted again to thank you for

all your support in helping me deal with having this Biopsy next month. What I

am really concerned with is if the Biopsy could cause cancer or if I do have it

could it spread it to other places of my body by having the biopsy. I booked it

for March 8th. At any rate, still major scared but will do it. Thanks again.