Re: Either Called Chemobrain or Chemofog, the Long-Term Chemotherapy-Induced Cognitive Decline in Cancer Survivors Is Real

[Guest guest]

Chuck Maack wrote:

> Well, finally more recognition...but how long before a

> medication will be determined to counter?

>

> Either Called " Chemobrain " or " Chemofog, " the Long-Term

> Chemotherapy-Induced Cognitive Decline in Cancer Survivors Is

> Real

> http://tinyurl.com/4te6mlx

Here's an easier link to the abstract that won't require anyone

to login to OncologySTAT to see it. All you can find there is

the same abstract that's on PubMed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=20832978

Working at NIH, I can get access to the full text of many medical

journals and I was able to look at the full text of this one.

The article is a survey and summary of existing studies rather

than a report on original research. My impression based on

skimming the article is as follows:

1. Many studies have shown cognitive decline in chemotherapy

patients. The effect appears to be real.

2. There is little hard data on the causes, however it appears

that there may be more than one. A number of researchers have

proposed hypotheses for different causes, including

- brain damage due to chemotherapy drugs

- genetic predispositions to brain damage from chemo

- hormonal effects in prostate or breast cancer that magnify the

effect

- DNA damage caused by oxidative stress induced by chemo

- damage caused by anemia caused by chemo

- immune system dysregulation

- the effect of psychological factors related to cancer and/or

treatment

However it appears that no one yet has definitive proof and there

is not yet a way to predict who will suffer the effects and who

won't.

One good thing I note in the article is that it appears that most

chemotherapy agents are unable to cross the " blood brain

barrier " , i.e., they don't get into the brain. Some drugs DO

cross the barrier. Ones named in the article as either crossing

the barrier or damaging central nervous system cells include:

5-fluorouracil, carmustine, cisplatin, cytarabine

Taxanes (presumably including docetaxel/Taxotere and cabizitaxel)

do NOT cross the blood brain barrier - which is good news for us

PCa patients. However there is speculation that some patients

have a genetic makeup that might allow these drugs to cross the

barrier. But this has not been proven.

Alan

[Guest guest]

Alan,

This stresses quality of life issues. Just taking Lupron my friends and relatives have noticed I am slower in my cognitive and physical responses (with no ambition). I am curious if there is anything out there to counter act this. I found what little I have been on just lupron (what will I be like on real chemo-will anyone know me cognitively) that if I take Sam e I am much more cognitive than on anti depressants (although I needed the anti d's related to my anxiety and security). I amazed at you guys clarity and ability to do research when on much stronger stuff (and admire you as well).

Sorry for this bit of fluff and do any of you have recommendations where I can find cheap, quality, multi esoteric coated vitamins and minerals? I take everything I can find that has some scientific evidence it might hurt cancer cells. There are a lot of vit and minerals and my stomach with my hyatil(sp) hernia are not getting along coupled with my budget.

I read Chuck's last email on cancers ability to eat themselves to survive. So I looked up Anti H-ras and found many things being researched at the level of small animals. All of interest and Vit E seems to affect H-ras in cancer cells prompting this email about my ability to take and absorb all those vitamins and ... without major indigestion and hurting my budget.

Thanks,

Tom W.

To: ProstateCancerSupport Sent: Tue, February 15, 2011 7:16:00 AMSubject: Re: Either Called "Chemobrain" or "Chemofog," the Long-Term Chemotherapy-Induced Cognitive Decline in Cancer Survivors Is Real

Chuck Maack wrote:> Well, finally more recognition...but how long before a> medication will be determined to counter?> > Either Called "Chemobrain" or "Chemofog," the Long-Term> Chemotherapy-Induced Cognitive Decline in Cancer Survivors Is> Real> http://tinyurl.com/4te6mlx Here's an easier link to the abstract that won't require anyoneto login to OncologySTAT to see it. All you can find there isthe same abstract that's on PubMed.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=20832978Working at NIH, I can get access to the full text of many medicaljournals and I was able to look at the full

text of this one.The article is a survey and summary of existing studies ratherthan a report on original research. My impression based onskimming the article is as follows:1. Many studies have shown cognitive decline in chemotherapypatients. The effect appears to be real.2. There is little hard data on the causes, however it appearsthat there may be more than one. A number of researchers haveproposed hypotheses for different causes, including - brain damage due to chemotherapy drugs- genetic predispositions to brain damage from chemo- hormonal effects in prostate or breast cancer that magnify theeffect- DNA damage caused by oxidative stress induced by chemo- damage caused by anemia caused by chemo- immune system dysregulation- the effect of psychological factors related to cancer and/ortreatmentHowever it appears that no one yet has

definitive proof and thereis not yet a way to predict who will suffer the effects and whowon't.One good thing I note in the article is that it appears that mostchemotherapy agents are unable to cross the "blood brainbarrier", i.e., they don't get into the brain. Some drugs DOcross the barrier. Ones named in the article as either crossingthe barrier or damaging central nervous system cells include:5-fluorouracil, carmustine, cisplatin, cytarabineTaxanes (presumably including docetaxel/Taxotere and cabizitaxel)do NOT cross the blood brain barrier - which is good news for usPCa patients. However there is speculation that some patientshave a genetic makeup that might allow these drugs to cross thebarrier. But this has not been proven.Alan

[Guest guest]

Chuck Maack wrote:

....

> Much of combating androgen deprivation therapy is the will to

> do so. If you just lay back and let life go on and the

> medication do its " thing, " in my opinion that is when men run

> into trouble. On the other hand, if you set yourself to

> combating this danged disease with at least what you do have at

> your disposal, you will get through what can otherwise be an

> ordeal much easier. Though I am aware of other men who claim

> to have a problem with cognitive functioning while on ADT

> medications, I know of many more who, through personal efforts,

> have done so with much less problem. I have been

> on/off/on/off, and more recently on, ADT medications for the

> past over 14 years, and if you note my posts to the support

> lists, I apparently still have reasonable cognitive

> functioning. I still recall most everything though admittedly

> have lapses where I have to give some thought...but I’m in my

> 79th year of life, so I certainly have to chalk up some

> " issues " to the aging process.

....

I agree with this 100%. I think that when a person experiences

cognitive decline the best thing he or she can do is to work

harder at it, concentrate harder, think harder, stay mentally

active, pay more attention.

There was a famous study of Alzheimer's disease conducted in a

convent. All of the nuns agreed to allow the researchers to

perform autopsies after they died. The nuns were pretty elderly

and many died during the period of the study.

The results of the autopsies were surprising. Some nuns

obviously had Alzheimer's disease and their autopsies showed it.

But the surprising thing was that there were also some nuns whose

autopsies showed significant amounts of Alzheimer's disease but

nobody knew. Everyone who knew them thought they were perfectly

intelligent and alert.

The researchers speculated that the women who did not show their

Alzheimer's were people who worked very hard at thinking and who

managed to overcome their deficits, working around memory lapses

or confusions by trying harder and finding alternative ways to

come up with what they needed.

I know that brain damage is real and that it can be difficult to

overcome, but what else can we do but try? And if we do try, we

can surprise ourselves with how well we can do. The brain is a

pretty flexible instrument, capable of working around problems

and engaging alternative pathways when it needs to.

So my feeling is, don't despair. Keep at it. Work hard. Don't

give in to resignation and depression. Even if you don't fully

succeed, you'll do a lot better than you thought you could.

Alan

[Guest guest]

Guys,

I should not have coupled what I said with this article. I am a former psychotherapist and what I am talking is cognitive response time, motivation to do anything, mental alertness, driving for distances and cannot keep awake no matter what I put in, a sharp sense of humour and ......

No matter what mental tricks I used or tools and I know a few I could not overcome those things. My friends would look at me like I had stroke or something. As you guys did I will have to figure alternative ways to deal with but to tell I have to work harder when I could not find the motivation to get off the couch. I respect you guys a lot! I have never been mentally and emotionally effected as I was on that stuff so I guess it is just me and my unique response to it..

Does anyone have cheap but good website or source for vitamins?

You guys have really educated me on the physicall medical knowledge and I soo appreciate that!

Tom

To: ProstateCancerSupport Sent: Tue, February 15, 2011 11:19:20 PMSubject: Re: Either Called "Chemobrain" or "Chemofog," the Long-Term Chemotherapy-Induced Cognitive Decline in Cancer Survivors Is Real

Chuck Maack wrote:...> Much of combating androgen deprivation therapy is the will to> do so. If you just lay back and let life go on and the> medication do its "thing," in my opinion that is when men run> into trouble. On the other hand, if you set yourself to> combating this danged disease with at least what you do have at> your disposal, you will get through what can otherwise be an> ordeal much easier. Though I am aware of other men who claim> to have a problem with cognitive functioning while on ADT> medications, I know of many more who, through personal efforts,> have done so with much less problem. I have been> on/off/on/off, and more recently on, ADT medications for the> past over 14 years, and if you note my posts to the

support> lists, I apparently still have reasonable cognitive> functioning. I still recall most everything though admittedly> have lapses where I have to give some thought...but I’m in my> 79th year of life, so I certainly have to chalk up some> "issues" to the aging process....I agree with this 100%. I think that when a person experiencescognitive decline the best thing he or she can do is to workharder at it, concentrate harder, think harder, stay mentallyactive, pay more attention.There was a famous study of Alzheimer's disease conducted in aconvent. All of the nuns agreed to allow the researchers toperform autopsies after they died. The nuns were pretty elderlyand many died during the period of the study.The results of the autopsies were surprising. Some nunsobviously had Alzheimer's disease and their autopsies showed it.But the surprising thing was that

there were also some nuns whoseautopsies showed significant amounts of Alzheimer's disease butnobody knew. Everyone who knew them thought they were perfectlyintelligent and alert.The researchers speculated that the women who did not show theirAlzheimer's were people who worked very hard at thinking and whomanaged to overcome their deficits, working around memory lapsesor confusions by trying harder and finding alternative ways tocome up with what they needed.I know that brain damage is real and that it can be difficult toovercome, but what else can we do but try? And if we do try, wecan surprise ourselves with how well we can do. The brain is apretty flexible instrument, capable of working around problemsand engaging alternative pathways when it needs to.So my feeling is, don't despair. Keep at it. Work hard. Don'tgive in to resignation and depression. Even if you don't

fullysucceed, you'll do a lot better than you thought you could.Alan