RE: Expected response to ADT

[Guest guest]

Bob,A post treatment PSA over 10 is a very clear sign that your cancer had left the gland and is probably at the minimum circulating as micro-metasteses. The proper treatment is ADT, so you are on the right track. I can not answer your specific question what a reasonable drop in PSA would be as each man's cancer is very different. You want to see an eventual drop in 2 to 3 months to ideally undetectable. You also should have your testosterone level monitored with the goal of being castrate (no testosterone being generated). According to researchers they use the number of 50 and under as the measurement of being castrate, but most of us want to see a number under 20. You want to measure your testosterone level to insure that the ADT drugs are doing what you want, making you castrate. As far as using a 5-AR Inhibitor ( dutasteride as an example) I am not a fan, but many people do advocate its use. My bias is against it as I think it primarily masks the PSA. There is a very recent study that hints that their use might make the cancer more aggressive.As far as your hip pain to know if it is the cancer you will need to have a scan. It could be the cancer, or it also could be arthritis or An effect of the radiation therapy.You also mint want to consider going to the Malecare web page where you should follow the link to the Advanced Prostate Cancer Programs (upper left purple link). On the is page you will be able join the very active on-line support group for men with advanced disease, listen to our pod castes on advanced disease (on Monday we will be discussing Provenge you can still sign on by viewing the instructions after my sign off) and download our free "Guide to Advanced Prostate Cancer. T Nowak, M.A., M.S.W.Director of Advocacy & Advanced Prostate Cancer ProgramsMalecarewww.malecare.comwww.advancedprostatecancer.net

I am now three months into ADT (bicalutamide followed by triptorelin). I had RPP in November 2009 after which my PSA remained between 2 and 3 and then EBRT in 2010 which also failed to reduce PSA to undetectable levels. When my PSA reached 10.3 with a PSADT of about 4 months I insisted on starting ADT. Tomorrow I get the result of my first blood-test since starting ADT.

Can anyone tell me:

1. What change would be reasonable in the PSA level at this stage. Some studies talk about the PSA nadir after 8 months so is too early to get stressed about it?

2. Whether I am right in requesting the oncologist to prescribe dutasteride in addition to the triptorelin. She is not keen but my GP and urologist think it would a good idea.

Currently I have no obvious cancer symptoms although my lower abdomen remains sore and my left hip is beginning to give me a bit of trouble - OK walking but painful to lie on or when rotated sideways. So question 3 is:

3. Is the hip problem a likely side effect of EBRT or is it more likely to be sign of cancer in the bone?

Any help with these questions would be much appreciated.

Best regards to all of you out there.

Bob

[Guest guest]

I don’t have much to add with the first

two questions, although my PSA didn’t change much when I started

ADT. Your situation is most likely different than mine since I had an

aggressive case (Gleason 9) with a low PSA (never when above 4.0).

Hopefully others will chime in.

I do have left hip problems. It

started getting uncomfortable while I was being diagnosed. I noticed it

most of the time during long rides on my motorcycle and would get to be a

problem with I would need to shift. Never much problem walking but

standing or if I twist it just right (wrong). It still bothers me 2 years

later. During this time I have had a bone scan and a couple of x-rays,

EBRT, and then a x-ray of that area to view the pain sight specifically and

nothing noteworthy has shown up (yet). I don’t know if this is a

comfort or not that that is the situation I am sitting at now. I don’t

have an answer but the doctors are not worried about it and they say it must be

muscular. I just continue on and will keep an eye on it and will

speak up if it gets worse.

From: ProstateCancerSupport

[mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of Crozier Data Consultancy

Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 6:44

AM

To:

ProstateCancerSupport

Subject:

Expected response to ADT

I am now three months into ADT

(bicalutamide followed by triptorelin). I had RPP in November 2009 after which

my PSA remained between 2 and 3 and then EBRT in 2010 which also failed to

reduce PSA to undetectable levels. When my PSA reached 10.3 with a PSADT of

about 4 months I insisted on starting ADT. Tomorrow I get the result of my

first blood-test since starting ADT.

Can anyone tell me:

1. What change would be reasonable in the PSA level at this

stage. Some studies talk about the PSA nadir after 8 months so is too early to

get stressed about it?

2. Whether I am right in requesting the oncologist to

prescribe dutasteride in addition to the triptorelin. She is not keen but my GP

and urologist think it would a good idea.

Currently I have no obvious cancer symptoms although my

lower abdomen remains sore and my left hip is beginning to give me a bit of

trouble - OK walking but painful to lie on or when rotated sideways. So

question 3 is:

3. Is the hip problem a likely side effect of EBRT or is it

more likely to be sign of cancer in the bone?

Any help with these questions would be much appreciated.

Best regards to all of you out there.

Bob

[Guest guest]

I also had a low PSA with a Gleason of 8 (December of 2007). Surgery was attempted, 43 radiation treatments and ADT. And, I have left hip problems which just started a couple of months ago. Bone and Cat scans haven’t shown any problems as of yet although my PSA as risen above 4. My son has given me a small machine that produces an electrical shock and that helps somewhat, but riding for any distance is a pain. BTW, I am on Lupron presently but had one Eligard shot. It caused a bout of depression that was absolutely horrible for both me and my wife.Dave From: ProstateCancerSupport [mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of Larry HelberSent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 11:17 AMTo: ProstateCancerSupport Subject: RE: Expected response to ADT I don’t have much to add with the first two questions, although my PSA didn’t change much when I started ADT. Your situation is most likely different than mine since I had an aggressive case (Gleason 9) with a low PSA (never when above 4.0). Hopefully others will chime in. I do have left hip problems. It started getting uncomfortable while I was being diagnosed. I noticed it most of the time during long rides on my motorcycle and would get to be a problem with I would need to shift. Never much problem walking but standing or if I twist it just right (wrong). It still bothers me 2 years later. During this time I have had a bone scan and a couple of x-rays, EBRT, and then a x-ray of that area to view the pain sight specifically and nothing noteworthy has shown up (yet). I don’t know if this is a comfort or not that that is the situation I am sitting at now. I don’t have an answer but the doctors are not worried about it and they say it must be muscular. I just continue on and will keep an eye on it and will speak up if it gets worse. From: ProstateCancerSupport [mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of Crozier Data ConsultancySent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 6:44 AMTo: ProstateCancerSupport Subject: Expected response to ADT I am now three months into ADT (bicalutamide followed by triptorelin). I had RPP in November 2009 after which my PSA remained between 2 and 3 and then EBRT in 2010 which also failed to reduce PSA to undetectable levels. When my PSA reached 10.3 with a PSADT of about 4 months I insisted on starting ADT. Tomorrow I get the result of my first blood-test since starting ADT. Can anyone tell me:1. What change would be reasonable in the PSA level at this stage. Some studies talk about the PSA nadir after 8 months so is too early to get stressed about it?2. Whether I am right in requesting the oncologist to prescribe dutasteride in addition to the triptorelin. She is not keen but my GP and urologist think it would a good idea. Currently I have no obvious cancer symptoms although my lower abdomen remains sore and my left hip is beginning to give me a bit of trouble - OK walking but painful to lie on or when rotated sideways. So question 3 is:3. Is the hip problem a likely side effect of EBRT or is it more likely to be sign of cancer in the bone? Any help with these questions would be much appreciated. Best regards to all of you out there. Bob

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> ... there is a potential problem with Dutasteride and other 5

> alpha reductase drugs. There was a 7 year trial to determine if

> Finasteride could be used as a preventative for PCa. On the 5th

> year there was evidence that although Finasteride showed an

> overall 25 pct reduction in cases of PCa, it also was showing

> evidence that those in the study who did develop PCa had a much

> more aggressive form of the disease. ...

,

Please do read Chuck's article. He addresses this point

directly. Also, he notes that some of the leading prostate

cancer medical oncologists are prescribing dutasteride for their

patients. So it isn't just Chuck's opinion but also that of some

heavy hitters (though Chuck seems to be no lightweight himself

....

> What made me and many others suspicious was that instead of

> carrying on the study for another 2 years as planned to

> determine if this were actually the case, the manufacturer of

> Finasteride halted the trial immediately upon receiving this

> information. Then they spent the next 18 months attempting to

> create plausable explanations for the results without ever

> explaining why they stopped the trial.

....

I think anyone who is not suspicious of drug companies is living

in a dream world. I don't doubt for a minute that if drug

companies could get big profits from dubious drugs most of them

wouldn't hesitate to do so.

But that doesn't by itself prove that the drugs are bad.

If I have a recurrence (it's possible that I do since my PSA is

up a little in the last year) I'll probably ask for dutasteride

as part of my treatment. The argument for it seem very sound

and very strong. The argument against it is a very small

statistical association that is easily explained by another

mechanism as described in Chuck's paper. To my knowledge, no

mechanism has been proposed for how dutasteride could cause a

real rise in Gleason score.

However, even if the association were real, and we have good

reason to believe it's not, I might still want the dutasteride on

the grounds that the potential benefit might outweigh the

potential risk.

Unfortunately, these are all tough questions. We don't yet have

a complete picture of prostate cancer biology. It will probably

be decades, if not centuries, before we do. So we have to base

our decisions now on statistical associations and theories

derived from imperfect evidence. It's something of a crap shoot

and, since we all die in the end anyway, our success is measured

in extra time leading to death from something else.

Ah well. Life is what it is. In my view, it's way better than

never having lived at all :^)

Alan

[Guest guest]

> Please do read Chuck's article. He addresses this point

> directly. Also, he notes that some of the leading prostate

> cancer medical oncologists are prescribing dutasteride for their

> patients. So it isn't just Chuck's opinion but also that of some

> heavy hitters (though Chuck seems to be no lightweight himself

>

As a supplement to Alan's post, I'll add this:

Some months ago, we went through this same foofaraw.

It was well-demonstrated that the apparent rise in advanced PCa

was an artifact of the reduction in size of the gland caused by

the drug. Reduction is, after all, the reason for their approval.

Less gland, more likelihood of encountering PCa. Simple and

logical, but not profitable to some " researchers. "

Regards,

Steve J

" A man's most valuable trait is a judicious sense of what not to

believe. "

-- Euripides

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your response, . In fact my latest results are the first

encouraging signs I've had. My PSA was down from 10.3 to 0.43 after 3 months of

ADT. My testosterone level was 0.5 nmol/l which I think translates to 14.4 in US

measurements. The one worry was my Vit D level which was 31 although I have been

taking cod liver oil capsules for ages and get out walking quite a lot. I'm

being sent for a DEXA scan to see what's going on with my bones. I shall be

increasing my Vit D supplements.

I asked again about dutasteride and my oncologist said definitely not. Her

husband works in pharmaceuticals and the word there (not for publication) is

that dutasteride sucks.

Bob

________________________________

From: ProstateCancerSupport on behalf of TNowak

Sent: Sun 12/06/2011 16:59

To: ProstateCancerSupport

Subject: Re: Expected response to ADT

Bob,

A post treatment PSA over 10 is a very clear sign that your cancer had left the

gland and is probably at the minimum circulating as micro-metasteses. The proper

treatment is ADT, so you are on the right track.

I can not answer your specific question what a reasonable drop in PSA would be

as each man's cancer is very different. You want to see an eventual drop in 2

to 3 months to ideally undetectable.

You also should have your testosterone level monitored with the goal of being

castrate (no testosterone being generated). According to researchers they use

the number of 50 and under as the measurement of being castrate, but most of us

want to see a number under 20. You want to measure your testosterone level to

insure that the ADT drugs are doing what you want, making you castrate.

As far as using a 5-AR Inhibitor ( dutasteride as an example) I am not a fan,

but many people do advocate its use. My bias is against it as I think it

primarily masks the PSA. There is a very recent study that hints that their use

might make the cancer more aggressive.

As far as your hip pain to know if it is the cancer you will need to have a

scan. It could be the cancer, or it also could be arthritis or An effect of the

radiation therapy.

You also mint want to consider going to the Malecare web page where you should

follow the link to the Advanced Prostate Cancer Programs (upper left purple

link). On the is page you will be able join the very active on-line support

group for men with advanced disease, listen to our pod castes on advanced

disease (on Monday we will be discussing Provenge you can still sign on by

viewing the instructions after my sign off) and download our free " Guide to

Advanced Prostate Cancer.

Jo el

T Nowak, M.A., M.S.W.

Director of Advocacy & Advanced Prostate Cancer Programs

Malecare

www.malecare.com <http://www.malecare.com/>

www.advancedprostatecancer.net <http://www.advancedprostatecancer.net/>

On Jun 12, 2011, at 6:44 AM, " Crozier Data Consultancy "

wrote:

I am now three months into ADT (bicalutamide followed by triptorelin). I had

RPP in November 2009 after which my PSA remained between 2 and 3 and then EBRT

in 2010 which also failed to reduce PSA to undetectable levels. When my PSA

reached 10.3 with a PSADT of about 4 months I insisted on starting ADT. Tomorrow

I get the result of my first blood-test since starting ADT.

Can anyone tell me:

1. What change would be reasonable in the PSA level at this stage. Some studies

talk about the PSA nadir after 8 months so is too early to get stressed about

it?

2. Whether I am right in requesting the oncologist to prescribe dutasteride in

addition to the triptorelin. She is not keen but my GP and urologist think it

would a good idea.

Currently I have no obvious cancer symptoms although my lower abdomen remains

sore and my left hip is beginning to give me a bit of trouble - OK walking but

painful to lie on or when rotated sideways. So question 3 is:

3. Is the hip problem a likely side effect of EBRT or is it more likely to be

sign of cancer in the bone?

Any help with these questions would be much appreciated.

Best regards to all of you out there.

Bob

[Guest guest]

Bob,I too had low vit D so I was put on very high dose, 100,000 iud per day for about 4 weeks. The goal was to build up the numbers. Once I reached a high normal range I cut back to 2,000 units per day which has stabilized. T NowakTypos by IPhone

Thanks for your response, . In fact my latest results are the first encouraging signs I've had. My PSA was down from 10.3 to 0.43 after 3 months of ADT. My testosterone level was 0.5 nmol/l which I think translates to 14.4 in US measurements. The one worry was my Vit D level which was 31 although I have been taking cod liver oil capsules for ages and get out walking quite a lot. I'm being sent for a DEXA scan to see what's going on with my bones. I shall be increasing my Vit D supplements.

I asked again about dutasteride and my oncologist said definitely not. Her husband works in pharmaceuticals and the word there (not for publication) is that dutasteride sucks.

Bob

________________________________

From: ProstateCancerSupport on behalf of TNowak

Sent: Sun 12/06/2011 16:59

To: ProstateCancerSupport

Subject: Re: Expected response to ADT

Bob,

A post treatment PSA over 10 is a very clear sign that your cancer had left the gland and is probably at the minimum circulating as micro-metasteses. The proper treatment is ADT, so you are on the right track.

I can not answer your specific question what a reasonable drop in PSA would be as each man's cancer is very different. You want to see an eventual drop in 2 to 3 months to ideally undetectable.

You also should have your testosterone level monitored with the goal of being castrate (no testosterone being generated). According to researchers they use the number of 50 and under as the measurement of being castrate, but most of us want to see a number under 20. You want to measure your testosterone level to insure that the ADT drugs are doing what you want, making you castrate.

As far as using a 5-AR Inhibitor ( dutasteride as an example) I am not a fan, but many people do advocate its use. My bias is against it as I think it primarily masks the PSA. There is a very recent study that hints that their use might make the cancer more aggressive.

As far as your hip pain to know if it is the cancer you will need to have a scan. It could be the cancer, or it also could be arthritis or An effect of the radiation therapy.

You also mint want to consider going to the Malecare web page where you should follow the link to the Advanced Prostate Cancer Programs (upper left purple link). On the is page you will be able join the very active on-line support group for men with advanced disease, listen to our pod castes on advanced disease (on Monday we will be discussing Provenge you can still sign on by viewing the instructions after my sign off) and download our free "Guide to Advanced Prostate Cancer.

Jo el

T Nowak, M.A., M.S.W.

Director of Advocacy & Advanced Prostate Cancer Programs

Malecare

www.malecare.com <http://www.malecare.com/>

www.advancedprostatecancer.net <http://www.advancedprostatecancer.net/>

I am now three months into ADT (bicalutamide followed by triptorelin). I had RPP in November 2009 after which my PSA remained between 2 and 3 and then EBRT in 2010 which also failed to reduce PSA to undetectable levels. When my PSA reached 10.3 with a PSADT of about 4 months I insisted on starting ADT. Tomorrow I get the result of my first blood-test since starting ADT.

Can anyone tell me:

1. What change would be reasonable in the PSA level at this stage. Some studies talk about the PSA nadir after 8 months so is too early to get stressed about it?

2. Whether I am right in requesting the oncologist to prescribe dutasteride in addition to the triptorelin. She is not keen but my GP and urologist think it would a good idea.

Currently I have no obvious cancer symptoms although my lower abdomen remains sore and my left hip is beginning to give me a bit of trouble - OK walking but painful to lie on or when rotated sideways. So question 3 is:

3. Is the hip problem a likely side effect of EBRT or is it more likely to be sign of cancer in the bone?

Any help with these questions would be much appreciated.

Best regards to all of you out there.

Bob

<winmail.dat>

[Guest guest]

Bob,I too had low vit D so I was put on very high dose, 100,000 iud per day for about 4 weeks. The goal was to build up the numbers. Once I reached a high normal range I cut back to 2,000 units per day which has stabilized. T NowakTypos by IPhone

Thanks for your response, . In fact my latest results are the first encouraging signs I've had. My PSA was down from 10.3 to 0.43 after 3 months of ADT. My testosterone level was 0.5 nmol/l which I think translates to 14.4 in US measurements. The one worry was my Vit D level which was 31 although I have been taking cod liver oil capsules for ages and get out walking quite a lot. I'm being sent for a DEXA scan to see what's going on with my bones. I shall be increasing my Vit D supplements.

I asked again about dutasteride and my oncologist said definitely not. Her husband works in pharmaceuticals and the word there (not for publication) is that dutasteride sucks.

Bob

________________________________

From: ProstateCancerSupport on behalf of TNowak

Sent: Sun 12/06/2011 16:59

To: ProstateCancerSupport

Subject: Re: Expected response to ADT

Bob,

A post treatment PSA over 10 is a very clear sign that your cancer had left the gland and is probably at the minimum circulating as micro-metasteses. The proper treatment is ADT, so you are on the right track.

I can not answer your specific question what a reasonable drop in PSA would be as each man's cancer is very different. You want to see an eventual drop in 2 to 3 months to ideally undetectable.

You also should have your testosterone level monitored with the goal of being castrate (no testosterone being generated). According to researchers they use the number of 50 and under as the measurement of being castrate, but most of us want to see a number under 20. You want to measure your testosterone level to insure that the ADT drugs are doing what you want, making you castrate.

As far as using a 5-AR Inhibitor ( dutasteride as an example) I am not a fan, but many people do advocate its use. My bias is against it as I think it primarily masks the PSA. There is a very recent study that hints that their use might make the cancer more aggressive.

As far as your hip pain to know if it is the cancer you will need to have a scan. It could be the cancer, or it also could be arthritis or An effect of the radiation therapy.

You also mint want to consider going to the Malecare web page where you should follow the link to the Advanced Prostate Cancer Programs (upper left purple link). On the is page you will be able join the very active on-line support group for men with advanced disease, listen to our pod castes on advanced disease (on Monday we will be discussing Provenge you can still sign on by viewing the instructions after my sign off) and download our free "Guide to Advanced Prostate Cancer.

Jo el

T Nowak, M.A., M.S.W.

Director of Advocacy & Advanced Prostate Cancer Programs

Malecare

www.malecare.com <http://www.malecare.com/>

www.advancedprostatecancer.net <http://www.advancedprostatecancer.net/>

I am now three months into ADT (bicalutamide followed by triptorelin). I had RPP in November 2009 after which my PSA remained between 2 and 3 and then EBRT in 2010 which also failed to reduce PSA to undetectable levels. When my PSA reached 10.3 with a PSADT of about 4 months I insisted on starting ADT. Tomorrow I get the result of my first blood-test since starting ADT.

Can anyone tell me:

1. What change would be reasonable in the PSA level at this stage. Some studies talk about the PSA nadir after 8 months so is too early to get stressed about it?

2. Whether I am right in requesting the oncologist to prescribe dutasteride in addition to the triptorelin. She is not keen but my GP and urologist think it would a good idea.

Currently I have no obvious cancer symptoms although my lower abdomen remains sore and my left hip is beginning to give me a bit of trouble - OK walking but painful to lie on or when rotated sideways. So question 3 is:

3. Is the hip problem a likely side effect of EBRT or is it more likely to be sign of cancer in the bone?

Any help with these questions would be much appreciated.

Best regards to all of you out there.

Bob

<winmail.dat>

[Guest guest]

Just a warning for Aanyone who may have taken softgel vitamin D by NOW vitamin company or natural made. They had a recall on them...way TOO much vitamin D in each tablet, to the point of being TOXIC. My friend was on them for only 3 months, and is in the toxic level...so go on line and check this out.To: "ProstateCancerSupport "

<ProstateCancerSupport >Sent: Tue, June 14, 2011 9:26:31 AMSubject: Re: Expected response to ADT

Bob,I too had low vit D so I was put on very high dose, 100,000 iud per day for about 4 weeks. The goal was to build up the numbers. Once I reached a high normal range I cut back to 2,000 units per day which has stabilized. T NowakTypos by IPhone

Thanks for your response, . In fact my latest results are the first encouraging signs I've had. My PSA was down from 10.3 to 0.43 after 3 months of ADT. My testosterone level was 0.5 nmol/l which I think translates to 14.4 in US measurements. The one worry was my Vit D level which was 31 although I have been taking cod liver oil capsules for ages and get out walking quite a lot. I'm being sent for a DEXA scan to see what's going on with my bones. I shall be increasing my Vit D supplements.

I asked again about dutasteride and my oncologist said definitely not. Her husband works in pharmaceuticals and the word there (not for publication) is that dutasteride sucks.

Bob

________________________________

From: ProstateCancerSupport on behalf of TNowak

Sent: Sun 12/06/2011 16:59

To: ProstateCancerSupport

Subject: Re: Expected response to ADT

Bob,

A post treatment PSA over 10 is a very clear sign that your cancer had left the gland and is probably at the minimum circulating as micro-metasteses. The proper treatment is ADT, so you are on the right track.

I can not answer your specific question what a reasonable drop in PSA would be as each man's cancer is very different. You want to see an eventual drop in 2 to 3 months to ideally undetectable.

You also should have your testosterone level monitored with the goal of being castrate (no testosterone being generated). According to researchers they use the number of 50 and under as the measurement of being castrate, but most of us want to see a number under 20. You want to measure your testosterone level to insure that the ADT drugs are doing what you want, making you castrate.

As far as using a 5-AR Inhibitor ( dutasteride as an example) I am not a fan, but many people do advocate its use. My bias is against it as I think it primarily masks the PSA. There is a very recent study that hints that their use might make the cancer more aggressive.

As far as your hip pain to know if it is the cancer you will need to have a scan. It could be the cancer, or it also could be arthritis or An effect of the radiation therapy.

You also mint want to consider going to the Malecare web page where you should follow the link to the Advanced Prostate Cancer Programs (upper left purple link). On the is page you will be able join the very active on-line support group for men with advanced disease, listen to our pod castes on advanced disease (on Monday we will be discussing Provenge you can still sign on by viewing the instructions after my sign off) and download our free "Guide to Advanced Prostate Cancer.

Jo el

T Nowak, M.A., M.S.W.

Director of Advocacy & Advanced Prostate Cancer Programs

Malecare

www.malecare.com <http://www.malecare.com/>

www.advancedprostatecancer.net <http://www.advancedprostatecancer.net/>

I am now three months into ADT (bicalutamide followed by triptorelin). I had RPP in November 2009 after which my PSA remained between 2 and 3 and then EBRT in 2010 which also failed to reduce PSA to undetectable levels. When my PSA reached 10.3 with a PSADT of about 4 months I insisted on starting ADT. Tomorrow I get the result of my first blood-test since starting ADT.

Can anyone tell me:

1. What change would be reasonable in the PSA level at this stage. Some studies talk about the PSA nadir after 8 months so is too early to get stressed about it?

2. Whether I am right in requesting the oncologist to prescribe dutasteride in addition to the triptorelin. She is not keen but my GP and urologist think it would a good idea.

Currently I have no obvious cancer symptoms although my lower abdomen remains sore and my left hip is beginning to give me a bit of trouble - OK walking but painful to lie on or when rotated sideways. So question 3 is:

3. Is the hip problem a likely side effect of EBRT or is it more likely to be sign of cancer in the bone?

Any help with these questions would be much appreciated.

Best regards to all of you out there.

Bob

<winmail.dat>

[Guest guest]

Crozier Data Consultancy wrote:

> ... and my oncologist said definitely not. Her husband works in

> pharmaceuticals and the word there (not for publication) is

> that dutasteride sucks. ...

This needs to be posted as a textbook example of what not to

consider as scientific evidence.

It's a good thing that your oncologist's husband's workplace

opinion (not for publication) doesn't hold that olives suck. I'd

hate to have to put a twist of lemon in my martini. :^)

Alan

[Guest guest]

> Crozier Data Consultancy <bob.bishop@...

> <mailto:bob.bishop%40crozierdc.co.uk>> wrote:

>

> > ... and my oncologist said definitely not. Her husband works in

> > pharmaceuticals and the word there (not for publication) is

> > that dutasteride sucks. ...

>

> This needs to be posted as a textbook example of what not to

> consider as scientific evidence.

>

> It's a good thing that your oncologist's husband's workplace

> opinion (not for publication) doesn't hold that olives suck. I'd

> hate to have to put a twist of lemon in my martini. :^)

Thanks, Alan.

This sort of anonymous third- or fourth-hand rumor is utterly

unreliable. It should not have been posted because it has the

potential to cause undue upset among patients who use it.

Regards,

Steve J

PS: Whew! Got through it without resort to even one cuss word.

[Guest guest]

Hmmmm...

I'm a bit surprised by the reaction to bob's statement. I must have been wrong when I perceived this group to consist of persons in the same (PCa) boat that were willing to express their opinions and perceptions without being berated. There seem to be some among us that expect every statement to be followed by a collection of Pub-Med references and reports from some medical journal.

If I say that half the people on ADT in the Man 2 Man group I go to are like zombies that is hearsay ?? -- but when my "T: was below 20 for a year I was one of them. If someone told me that the group at the clinic has seen some bad results from taking a certain drug and I relayed this to "a friend" I would be giving that "friend" a reason to check into the situation be for he went down that road. After all that is part of a support group's function to inspire persons to do more research into their own situation.

Is it possible that this group has an elderly mind set that has followed the doctor's orders so long that they perceive doctors as GODs?? I wont be 78 for another six months so when can I expect that mind set to kick in on me ??

Henry

To: ProstateCancerSupport From: mycroftscj1@...Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 14:24:01 -0700Subject: Re: Expected response to ADT

> Crozier Data Consultancy <mailto:bob.bishop%40crozierdc.co.uk>> wrote:>> > ... and my oncologist said definitely not. Her husband works in> > pharmaceuticals and the word there (not for publication) is> > that dutasteride sucks. ...>> This needs to be posted as a textbook example of what not to> consider as scientific evidence.>> It's a good thing that your oncologist's husband's workplace> opinion (not for publication) doesn't hold that olives suck. I'd> hate to have to put a twist of lemon in my martini. :^)Thanks, Alan.This sort of anonymous third- or fourth-hand rumor is utterly unreliable. It should not have been posted because it has the potential to cause undue upset among patients who use it.Regards,Steve JPS: Whew! Got through it without resort to even one cuss word.

[Guest guest]

I suggest that you do a few searches on Vit D when taken with lots of Vit A. You may get some answers. There is some , but not a whole lot of Vit D in Cod Liver oil but there is a lot of Vit A. Also, if you have not already, you may want to go to the Vit D council website of Dr. Cannell and read there.

BOBI am now three months into ADT (bicalutamide followed by triptorelin). I had RPP in

November 2009 after which my PSA remained between 2 and 3 and then EBRT in 2010 which also failed to reduce PSA to undetectable levels. When my PSA reached 10.3 with a PSADT of about 4 months I insisted on starting ADT. Tomorrow I get the result of my first blood-test since starting ADT.Can anyone tell me:1. What change would be reasonable in the PSA level at this stage. Some studies talk about the PSA nadir after 8 months so is too early to get stressed about it?2. Whether I am right in requesting the oncologist to prescribe dutasteride in addition to the triptorelin. She is not keen but my GP and urologist think it would a good idea.Currently I have no obvious cancer symptoms although my lower abdomen remains sore and my left hip is beginning to give me a bit of trouble - OK walking but painful to lie on or when rotated sideways. So question 3 is:3. Is the hip problem a likely side effect of EBRT or is it more likely to be

sign of cancer in the bone?Any help with these questions would be much appreciated.Best regards to all of you out there.Bob

[Guest guest]

> Is it possible that this group has an elderly mind set that has

> followed the doctor's orders so long that they perceive doctors

> as GODs??

God, no.

Regards,

Steve J

" The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data.' "

--Al Bothe, Jr., MD, University of Chicago

[Guest guest]

Henry wrote:

> Hmmmm...

>

> I'm a bit surprised by the reaction to bob's statement. I must

> have been wrong when I perceived this group to consist of

> persons in the same (PCa) boat that were willing to express

> their opinions and perceptions without being berated. There

> seem to be some among us that expect every statement to be

> followed by a collection of Pub-Med references and reports from

> some medical journal.

>

> If I say that half the people on ADT in the Man 2 Man group I

> go to are like zombies that is hearsay ?? -- but when my " T:

> was below 20 for a year I was one of them. If someone told

> me that the group at the clinic has seen some bad results from

> taking a certain drug and I relayed this to " a friend " I would

> be giving that " friend " a reason to check into the situation be

> for he went down that road. After all that is part of a support

> group's function to inspire persons to do more research into

> their own situation.

>

> Is it possible that this group has an elderly mind set that has

> followed the doctor's orders so long that they perceive doctors

> as GODs?? I wont be 78 for another six months so when can I

> expect that mind set to kick in on me ??

I apologize if I gave any offense. I meant to be funny but

perhaps I was a little too flip.

Sorry.

However I do think there is a danger in basing decisions on

unverified data.

Unfortunately, the real problem for us is that we have so little

verified data to go on. We're way better off than we were 50 or

100 years ago, but we're still in the very early stages of having

a scientific understanding of cancer. I expect that 100 years

from now our great grandchildren will shudder with horror at the

crude treatments and partial knowledge that we have to live with.

Alan

[Guest guest]

Steve:

The cure for many diseases in the past(small pox, polio etc ) were not accomplished by a "formally conducted, double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial." to collect "data" So what is your point ?? If I swing a hatchet at my hand and only cut off one finger that is an anecdote but if I cut off four fingers, that is data ?? No !! that would just be stupid.

henry --- over & out ---

(from MedicalNet.com medical dictionary)

What is an anecdote in medicine?

In medicine, an anecdote is a treatment response observed on a single person or a number of people. The observations are made outside of a formally conducted, double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial.

Data: Facts, statistics, and the like. In medicine and the health sciences, people often speak of "the data" erroneously in the singular. "Data" is a plural noun and takes a plural verb, as in "the data are very convincing." It comes from the Latin "datum", meaning "a thing given."

To: ProstateCancerSupport From: mycroftscj1@...Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 16:08:25 -0700Subject: Re: Expected response to ADT

> Is it possible that this group has an elderly mind set that has> followed the doctor's orders so long that they perceive doctors> as GODs??God, no.Regards,Steve J"The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data.'"--Al Bothe, Jr., MD, University of Chicago