Guest guest Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 I think it's a great question! (¯`v´¯).`·.¸.·´ ¸.·´¸.·´¨) ¸.·*¨)(¸.·´ (¸.·´ .·´ ¸ JackieTo: ProstateCancerSupport From: ffioreaz@...Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 21:46:02 +0000Subject: Supressed PSA and PC Hi all, This is probably a dumb questions but I'm still learning. I read a lot about PC people using drugs and treatment to suppress or reduce their PSA. Does this strategy suppress the prostate cancer or just lower the PSA number. I know it doesn't cure it. You can have a low PSA and still have PC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Hi wuppins. PSA is a natural substance that occurs in the body to liquify the semen so that it can swim better. It is produced by the Prostate gland. When the amount of PSA in the blood starts to rise it indicates something is wrong with the mechanism. It is akin to the gauge on a steam boiler. It communicates what is going on in the boiler. PSA when it elevates is like a gauge of prostate activity. As it rises above nominal levels it communicates some kind of activity is taking place in the prostate. There are some rare strains of PCa that do not produce PSA but they are uncommon. The drugs and treatments are directed at the cancer and the PSA becomes the gauge (dipstick) of the success ot those efforts. Probably an oversimplification but my understanding of it. Prostate Cancer grows by feeding on PSA and if we reduce the supply and prevent the tumors from uptaking it we can force a remission of sorts. Rising PSA signals prostatic tumor activity somewhere in the body that must be evaluated and treated if possible. It seems as with all things prostate, there are no easy answers. I hope this helped. " Il faut d'abord durer " Hemingway Supressed PSA and PC > Hi all, > > This is probably a dumb questions but I'm still learning. I read a lot > about PC people using drugs and treatment to suppress or reduce their PSA. > Does this strategy suppress the prostate cancer or just lower the PSA > number. I know it doesn't cure it. You can have a low PSA and still have > PC. > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > There are just two rules for this group > 1 No Spam > 2 Be kind to others > > Please recognise that Prostate Cancerhas different guises and needs > different levels of treatment and in some cases no treatment at all. Some > men even with all options offered chose radical options that you would not > choose. We only ask that people be informed before choice is made, we > cannot and should not tell other members what to do, other than look at > other options. > > Try to delete old material that is no longer applying when clicking reply > Try to change the title if the content requires it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 It sure does. Thank you. (¯`v´¯).`·.¸.·´ ¸.·´¸.·´¨) ¸.·*¨)(¸.·´ (¸.·´ .·´ ¸ JackieTo: ProstateCancerSupport From: ikennedy2@...Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 17:30:20 -0700Subject: Re: Supressed PSA and PC Hi wuppins. PSA is a natural substance that occurs in the body to liquify the semen so that it can swim better. It is produced by the Prostate gland. When the amount of PSA in the blood starts to rise it indicates something is wrong with the mechanism. It is akin to the gauge on a steam boiler. It communicates what is going on in the boiler. PSA when it elevates is like a gauge of prostate activity. As it rises above nominal levels it communicates some kind of activity is taking place in the prostate. There are some rare strains of PCa that do not produce PSA but they are uncommon. The drugs and treatments are directed at the cancer and the PSA becomes the gauge (dipstick) of the success ot those efforts. Probably an oversimplification but my understanding of it. Prostate Cancer grows by feeding on PSA and if we reduce the supply and prevent the tumors from uptaking it we can force a remission of sorts. Rising PSA signals prostatic tumor activity somewhere in the body that must be evaluated and treated if possible. It seems as with all things prostate, there are no easy answers. I hope this helped. "Il faut d'abord durer" Hemingway Supressed PSA and PC > Hi all, > > This is probably a dumb questions but I'm still learning. I read a lot > about PC people using drugs and treatment to suppress or reduce their PSA. > Does this strategy suppress the prostate cancer or just lower the PSA > number. I know it doesn't cure it. You can have a low PSA and still have > PC. > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > There are just two rules for this group > 1 No Spam > 2 Be kind to others > > Please recognise that Prostate Cancerhas different guises and needs > different levels of treatment and in some cases no treatment at all. Some > men even with all options offered chose radical options that you would not > choose. We only ask that people be informed before choice is made, we > cannot and should not tell other members what to do, other than look at > other options. > > Try to delete old material that is no longer applying when clicking reply > Try to change the title if the content requires it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Not sure I’d agree with everything says, if only because he does not make the point clearly that PSA is NOT prostate cancer specific. Most changes in PSA level are from something other than prostate cancer. I wrote up a small piece – PSA 101 (see http://www.yananow.org/PSA101.shtml ) which has helped newcomers to start to understand the value and dangers of using PSA solely to identify and measure any progress in prostate cancer so I won’t go over all those issues here. The PSA test was originally developed to establish if the surgical removal of the prostate gland had been successful. In broad terms, at that time it was thought that ONLY the prostate gland produced PSA and therefore if the gland was removed there should be no PSA measurable by the standard PSA tests in the studies. As time went by, two things happened – the PSA test was used for diagnosis, although there is no direct correlation between PSA levels and prostate cancer being diagnosed and the PSA test was used for checking on the efficacy of other therapies, where the gland was NOT removed or even totally destroyed and was therefore capable of generating levels of PSA. Further ultra-sensitive PSA tests were developed which claimed to measure PSA levels more accurately to more decimal places and these were again applied to all therapies – there is another piece on Ultra-Sensitive PSA at http://www.yananow.org/UltraPSA.htm It was also found that PSA was NOT prostate GLAND specific, as initial thought, but was also produced by other parts of the body (women for example can have measurable PSA levels but they do not have a prostate gland). Apart from the issue of therapies other than surgery leaving behind prostate gland tissue capable of generating PSA, changed modern surgery techniques aimed at saving nerves and reducing the probability of erectile dysfunction can also result in prostate gland tissue being left behind and this can also generate measurable levels of PSA. So taking all this into account PSA levels on their own cannot be guaranteed to be associated with prostate cancer either before therapy or after therapy although such levels may be useful pointers, more aspects need to be considered before action is taken. asserts that “Prostate Cancer grows by feeding on PSA……”. He may be right, but in my sixteen years since diagnosis I have never seen this put forward as a theory or demonstrated by studies. There may well have been studies that I have overlooked, but the general view at present is that it is Testosterone and specifically DHT – dihydrotestosterone that ‘feeds’ tumours. So the principle forms of what are frequently termed ‘hormone therapies’ but more correctly are termed ADT (Androgen Deprivation Therapy) are aimed at reducing the amount of Testosterone produced or the amount taken up into the gland by the receptors on the cell formations being blocked. In this context some, or in rare circumstances all, of the prostate cancer cells die off and cease to produce PSA. These treatments are therefore not directly suppressing the production of PSA but lead to the death of cells that might be producing PSA. There are some therapies and natural supplements which can reduce the size of a prostate gland. Since a very large prostate gland – especially one resulting from the common BPH (Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia) which is not life threatening – can produce large levels of PSA with no prostate cancer being present, anything that reduces the size of the gland can also reduce the PSA levels generated by the gland. Complex? You bet. No simple answers anywhere. All the best Prostate men need enlightening, not frightening Terry Herbert - diagnosed in 1996 and still going strong Read A Strange Place for unbiased information at http://www.yananow.org/StrangePlace/index.html From: ProstateCancerSupport [mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of Kennedy Sent: Thursday, 17 May 2012 10:30 AM To: ProstateCancerSupport Subject: Re: Supressed PSA and PC Hi wuppins. PSA is a natural substance that occurs in the body to liquify the semen so that it can swim better. It is produced by the Prostate gland. When the amount of PSA in the blood starts to rise it indicates something is wrong with the mechanism. It is akin to the gauge on a steam boiler. It communicates what is going on in the boiler. PSA when it elevates is like a gauge of prostate activity. As it rises above nominal levels it communicates some kind of activity is taking place in the prostate. There are some rare strains of PCa that do not produce PSA but they are uncommon. The drugs and treatments are directed at the cancer and the PSA becomes the gauge (dipstick) of the success ot those efforts. Probably an oversimplification but my understanding of it. Prostate Cancer grows by feeding on PSA and if we reduce the supply and prevent the tumors from uptaking it we can force a remission of sorts. Rising PSA signals prostatic tumor activity somewhere in the body that must be evaluated and treated if possible. It seems as with all things prostate, there are no easy answers. I hope this helped. " Il faut d'abord durer " Hemingway Supressed PSA and PC > Hi all, > > This is probably a dumb questions but I'm still learning. I read a lot > about PC people using drugs and treatment to suppress or reduce their PSA. > Does this strategy suppress the prostate cancer or just lower the PSA > number. I know it doesn't cure it. You can have a low PSA and still have > PC. > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > There are just two rules for this group > 1 No Spam > 2 Be kind to others > > Please recognise that Prostate Cancerhas different guises and needs > different levels of treatment and in some cases no treatment at all. Some > men even with all options offered chose radical options that you would not > choose. We only ask that people be informed before choice is made, we > cannot and should not tell other members what to do, other than look at > other options. > > Try to delete old material that is no longer applying when clicking reply > Try to change the title if the content requires it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Thank you Terry. (¯`v´¯).`·.¸.·´ ¸.·´¸.·´¨) ¸.·*¨)(¸.·´ (¸.·´ .·´ ¸ JackieTo: ProstateCancerSupport From: ghenesh_49@...Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 11:40:25 +1000Subject: RE: Supressed PSA and PC Not sure I’d agree with everything says, if only because he does not make the point clearly that PSA is NOT prostate cancer specific. Most changes in PSA level are from something other than prostate cancer. I wrote up a small piece – PSA 101 (see http://www.yananow.org/PSA101.shtml ) which has helped newcomers to start to understand the value and dangers of using PSA solely to identify and measure any progress in prostate cancer so I won’t go over all those issues here. The PSA test was originally developed to establish if the surgical removal of the prostate gland had been successful. In broad terms, at that time it was thought that ONLY the prostate gland produced PSA and therefore if the gland was removed there should be no PSA measurable by the standard PSA tests in the studies. As time went by, two things happened – the PSA test was used for diagnosis, although there is no direct correlation between PSA levels and prostate cancer being diagnosed and the PSA test was used for checking on the efficacy of other therapies, where the gland was NOT removed or even totally destroyed and was therefore capable of generating levels of PSA. Further ultra-sensitive PSA tests were developed which claimed to measure PSA levels more accurately to more decimal places and these were again applied to all therapies – there is another piece on Ultra-Sensitive PSA at http://www.yananow.org/UltraPSA.htm It was also found that PSA was NOT prostate GLAND specific, as initial thought, but was also produced by other parts of the body (women for example can have measurable PSA levels but they do not have a prostate gland). Apart from the issue of therapies other than surgery leaving behind prostate gland tissue capable of generating PSA, changed modern surgery techniques aimed at saving nerves and reducing the probability of erectile dysfunction can also result in prostate gland tissue being left behind and this can also generate measurable levels of PSA. So taking all this into account PSA levels on their own cannot be guaranteed to be associated with prostate cancer either before therapy or after therapy although such levels may be useful pointers, more aspects need to be considered before action is taken. asserts that “Prostate Cancer grows by feeding on PSA……”. He may be right, but in my sixteen years since diagnosis I have never seen this put forward as a theory or demonstrated by studies. There may well have been studies that I have overlooked, but the general view at present is that it is Testosterone and specifically DHT – dihydrotestosterone that ‘feeds’ tumours. So the principle forms of what are frequently termed ‘hormone therapies’ but more correctly are termed ADT (Androgen Deprivation Therapy) are aimed at reducing the amount of Testosterone produced or the amount taken up into the gland by the receptors on the cell formations being blocked. In this context some, or in rare circumstances all, of the prostate cancer cells die off and cease to produce PSA. These treatments are therefore not directly suppressing the production of PSA but lead to the death of cells that might be producing PSA. There are some therapies and natural supplements which can reduce the size of a prostate gland. Since a very large prostate gland – especially one resulting from the common BPH (Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia) which is not life threatening – can produce large levels of PSA with no prostate cancer being present, anything that reduces the size of the gland can also reduce the PSA levels generated by the gland. Complex? You bet. No simple answers anywhere. All the best Prostate men need enlightening, not frightening Terry Herbert - diagnosed in 1996 and still going strong Read A Strange Place for unbiased information at http://www.yananow.org/StrangePlace/index.html From: ProstateCancerSupport [mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of Kennedy Sent: Thursday, 17 May 2012 10:30 AM To: ProstateCancerSupport Subject: Re: Supressed PSA and PC Hi wuppins. PSA is a natural substance that occurs in the body to liquify the semen so that it can swim better. It is produced by the Prostate gland. When the amount of PSA in the blood starts to rise it indicates something is wrong with the mechanism. It is akin to the gauge on a steam boiler. It communicates what is going on in the boiler. PSA when it elevates is like a gauge of prostate activity. As it rises above nominal levels it communicates some kind of activity is taking place in the prostate. There are some rare strains of PCa that do not produce PSA but they are uncommon. The drugs and treatments are directed at the cancer and the PSA becomes the gauge (dipstick) of the success ot those efforts. Probably an oversimplification but my understanding of it. Prostate Cancer grows by feeding on PSA and if we reduce the supply and prevent the tumors from uptaking it we can force a remission of sorts. Rising PSA signals prostatic tumor activity somewhere in the body that must be evaluated and treated if possible. It seems as with all things prostate, there are no easy answers. I hope this helped. "Il faut d'abord durer" Hemingway Supressed PSA and PC > Hi all, > > This is probably a dumb questions but I'm still learning. I read a lot > about PC people using drugs and treatment to suppress or reduce their PSA. > Does this strategy suppress the prostate cancer or just lower the PSA > number. I know it doesn't cure it. You can have a low PSA and still have > PC. > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > There are just two rules for this group > 1 No Spam > 2 Be kind to others > > Please recognise that Prostate Cancerhas different guises and needs > different levels of treatment and in some cases no treatment at all. Some > men even with all options offered chose radical options that you would not > choose. We only ask that people be informed before choice is made, we > cannot and should not tell other members what to do, other than look at > other options. > > Try to delete old material that is no longer applying when clicking reply > Try to change the title if the content requires it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Terry said " asserts that “Prostate Cancer grows by feeding on PSA." Oops. I meant to say testosterone. But that brings me to think what does it feed on when someone who has lost testicular function becomes adt naive and his disease increases? Dratted affliction! "Il faut d'abord durer" Hemingway Supressed PSA and PC> Hi all,>> This is probably a dumb questions but I'm still learning. I read a lot > about PC people using drugs and treatment to suppress or reduce their PSA. > Does this strategy suppress the prostate cancer or just lower the PSA > number. I know it doesn't cure it. You can have a low PSA and still have > PC.>>>>>> ------------------------------------>> There are just two rules for this group> 1 No Spam> 2 Be kind to others>> Please recognise that Prostate Cancerhas different guises and needs > different levels of treatment and in some cases no treatment at all. Some > men even with all options offered chose radical options that you would not > choose. We only ask that people be informed before choice is made, we > cannot and should not tell other members what to do, other than look at > other options.>> Try to delete old material that is no longer applying when clicking reply> Try to change the title if the content requires it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 The theory has two horns: Either the cancer cells have found a way to grow and multiply without DHT – dihydrotestosterone OR the other organs in the body which can produce DHT have upped production levels and are still feeding the cells. But….. the latter theory tends to be discarded when PSA levels increase and symptoms develop despite very low Testosterone counts Who knows, really. Many theories, many examples of cases falling outside of current theories and studies. All the best Terry From: ProstateCancerSupport [mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of Kennedy Sent: Thursday, 17 May 2012 12:33 PM To: ProstateCancerSupport Subject: Re: Supressed PSA and PC Terry said " asserts that “Prostate Cancer grows by feeding on PSA. " Oops. I meant to say testosterone. But that brings me to think what does it feed on when someone who has lost testicular function becomes adt naive and his disease increases? Dratted affliction! " Il faut d'abord durer " Hemingway Supressed PSA and PC > Hi all, > > This is probably a dumb questions but I'm still learning. I read a lot > about PC people using drugs and treatment to suppress or reduce their PSA. > Does this strategy suppress the prostate cancer or just lower the PSA > number. I know it doesn't cure it. You can have a low PSA and still have > PC. > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > There are just two rules for this group > 1 No Spam > 2 Be kind to others > > Please recognise that Prostate Cancerhas different guises and needs > different levels of treatment and in some cases no treatment at all. Some > men even with all options offered chose radical options that you would not > choose. We only ask that people be informed before choice is made, we > cannot and should not tell other members what to do, other than look at > other options. > > Try to delete old material that is no longer applying when clicking reply > Try to change the title if the content requires it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Thank you all for some very interesting comments. Lot's of made good sense. > > The theory has two horns: Either the cancer cells have found a way to grow > and multiply without DHT - dihydrotestosterone OR the other organs in the > body which can produce DHT have upped production levels and are still > feeding the cells. But... the latter theory tends to be discarded when PSA > levels increase and symptoms develop despite very low Testosterone counts > > > > Who knows, really. Many theories, many examples of cases falling outside of > current theories and studies. > > > > > > All the best > > > > Terry > > _____ > > From: ProstateCancerSupport > [mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of Kennedy > Sent: Thursday, 17 May 2012 12:33 PM > To: ProstateCancerSupport > Subject: Re: Supressed PSA and PC > > > > > > Terry said " asserts that " Prostate Cancer grows by feeding on PSA. " > > > > Oops. I meant to say testosterone. But that brings me to think what does it > feed on when someone who has lost testicular function becomes adt naive and > his disease increases? > > > > Dratted affliction! > > > > > > > > " Il faut d'abord durer " Hemingway > > Supressed PSA and PC > > > Hi all, > > > > This is probably a dumb questions but I'm still learning. I read a lot > > about PC people using drugs and treatment to suppress or reduce their PSA. > > > Does this strategy suppress the prostate cancer or just lower the PSA > > number. I know it doesn't cure it. You can have a low PSA and still have > > PC. > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > There are just two rules for this group > > 1 No Spam > > 2 Be kind to others > > > > Please recognise that Prostate Cancerhas different guises and needs > > different levels of treatment and in some cases no treatment at all. Some > > men even with all options offered chose radical options that you would not > > > choose. We only ask that people be informed before choice is made, we > > cannot and should not tell other members what to do, other than look at > > other options. > > > > Try to delete old material that is no longer applying when clicking reply > > Try to change the title if the content requires it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 wuppins wrote: > This is probably a dumb questions but I'm still learning. I > read a lot about PC people using drugs and treatment to > suppress or reduce their PSA. Does this strategy suppress the > prostate cancer or just lower the PSA number. I know it doesn't > cure it. You can have a low PSA and still have PC. We've had enough answers, with enough differences, that I thought I'd weigh in on this and see if I can confuse the issue even more. Here is a very long winded dissertation on my understanding of the PSA and testosterone issues. I'm not an expert and could have some of this wrong, but I hope I've got it right and that my explanations make sense to whoever can stand to read them. About PSA --------- As I understand it, prostate cells are the primary producer of the protein known as PSA, or " prostate specific antigen " . There are other cells in the body that can produce it (the technical term is " express " it), but only in tiny amounts compared to what prostate cells can do. Prostate cancer tumor cells are mutated prostate cells. The mutations they have cause them to divide and replicate when they should not and, if they become metastatic, to grow in places in the body outside the prostate where they should not. But these tumor cells are still prostate cells and they still, usually, produce PSA. So PSA acts as a good measure of the total number of prostate cells in the body. If that number is larger than can be accounted for by the size of the prostate itself, then there is a good chance that there are too many prostate cells around. The extras could be benign (called " benign prostate hyperplasia " or " BPH " ) or they could be out of control, i.e., tumor cells. There are some things that can cause prostate cells to produce more PSA than usual. A prostate inflammation will often do that. An inflammation might be caused by an infection, by mineral deposits that accumulate (like kidney stones in the ureters), by radiation (which is a possible cause of PSA " bounce " after radiation treatment) or possibly by other causes that are not yet understood by medical science. That's the background. Now to your actual question: Does lowering PSA suppress the prostate cancer? As far as I know, the answer is No, it does not. As far as I know, there are two ways to lower PSA. One way is to change the prostate cells to get them to produce less PSA. This might be done if there is a prostate inflammation by using antibiotics to cure an infection or by using anti-inflammatories. The other way is to damage or kill off prostate cells. This is what the hormone therapies and chemotherapies do. They reduce the total amount of cancer cells by killing a lot of them. It may be the case that these therapies can make some of the cancer cells less active, i.e., make them stop dividing and spreading, without killing them. I don't know. But in general I think that we can say that if the PSA goes down it's because there is less cancer in the body, not the other way around (i.e., it is NOT that the cancer goes down because the PSA goes down.) About Testosterone ------------------ Testosterone is a small molecule that acts as a signaling molecule in the body. It is largely produced in the testicles but can also be produced in small amounts elsewhere. It circulates in the blood stream. Prostate calls contain testosterone " receptors " on their surfaces. When a testosterone molecule floats by in the blood stream and collides with a receptor, the receptor grabs it ( " binds " to it) and imports the testosterone molecule into the cell, where various chemical reactions occur that result in the prostate cells continuing their healthy (or in the case of tumor cells unhealthy) activity. For a very rough analogy, we might think of a tumor cell as being like a flashlight. The light has a battery and a switch. Testosterone isn't like the battery. It doesn't " feed " the cancer in that sense. It's more like the finger on the switch. The presence of testosterone switches on the activity, including unhealthy activity, of the tumor cells. About Hormone Therapy --------------------- Currently used hormone therapies can work in one of three ways: 1. Reduce the amount of testosterone produced in the body. That's done (in an amazingly indirect way) by Lupron, Zoladex, and similar drugs. 2. Block the ability of the testosterone receptors on the surface of the prostate cells to bind to testosterone. That's done by bicalutamide (Casodex) and nilutamide. I think it's also done by Zytiga and MDV 3100. 3. Stop or reduce the reactions inside the cells that occur after testosterone is taken in. That's done by finasteride (Proscar) and dutasteride (Avodart). " ADT2 " uses some combination of two of these. " ADT3 " , also known as " triple hormone blockade " , uses all three. About " castration resistance " ----------------------------- Hormone therapy works for a while. In some men it can work for many years. In some men it works for a few months or years. In some men it hardly works at all. Whether it works well or not has to do with the specific mutations involved in an individual man's cancer. These are different for different men. As far as anyone knows, hormone therapy never kills every single prostate cancer cell in the body. Some continue to live in spite of it. We don't really know that for absolute certain because some of the most powerful hormone therapies, e.g., Zytiga, are brand new and haven't been tested on men whose cancers are very small and just starting out. But the current medical assumption is that hormone therapy is never a complete cure. Some cells seem to become " castration resistant " . They continue to divide and multiply even when testosterone levels are extremely low. If so, they will eventually re-populate the body and the patient will have a big load of cells like this that don't respond to hormone manipulation. These tumor cells will eventually kill him if he doesn't die of something else first. I know of three theories that have been proposed for castration resistance: 1. Tumor cells manufacture more testosterone receptors. When a testosterone molecule in the blood stream collides with a receptor, the molecule is imported into the cell. If the number of molecules circulating in the blood is reduced, a tumor cell can keep up its supply by increasing the number of receptors. An analogy for this is a cup out in the rain. In a heavy rain, the cup will fill with water but in a light rain it may not. However if we put a big funnel over the cup then even a light rain may funnel down enough water to fill the cup. There is a lot of evidence that this actually happens. 2. Tumor cells manufacture their own testosterone. Some researchers claim that some tumor cells can actually evolve to be able manufacture testosterone without needing it from outside. I don't know how good the evidence is for this. It sounds dubious to me but, who knows? 3. Tumor cells may be able to perform the same chemical reactions without the presence of testosterone that they formerly only performed in the presence of testosterone. If we can think of testosterone as a signal that turns on a switch, we can imagine a switch that gets stuck in the " on " position even without the signal. I believe that the efficacy of Zytiga and MDV 3100 after other hormone therapy has failed is evidence in favor of theory number 1. It is possible that, because Zytiga and MDV 3100 also eventually fail, that theory number 2 or 3, or both 2 and 3, are also true, or that there is some other explanations 4, 5, etc. that I don't know about or that haven't yet been discovered. I hope that is all accurate and helps. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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