Re: Biopsy or not to Biopsy

[Guest guest]

Dave,Remember being beset by the same questions and concerns. Haven't a -like solution. But, take strength, you're NOT alone; all of us on the mail list have been there, and we're pulling for you.tdr To: ProstateCancerSupport Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 6:13 AM Subject: Biopsy or not to Biopsy

I'm scheduled for my first prostate biopsy on Tuesday and I'm afraid to start down the path. When my PSA started rising a few years ago I started reading about Prostate cancer. There is so much information out there and I know I haven't scratched the surface. I continue to see a lot of conflicting info. Who do you believe? When it comes to conventional treatment options there are life changing side effects with all of them. Those side effects don't just change your life but the life of most everyone close to you as well. There is the financial impact to the family and the negative emotional impact to everyone close to you. I know there are two kinds of stress, one good and one bad. This one is bad and it's not going to make me or anyone else healthier. I see the biopsy as the first big event in my life as a cancer patient. As Tuesday draws near the stress & fear are building for me and my loved ones. I've watched many others go down this path and cried for them. The biopsy always seems to be followed by a rapid cascade of more exams, more trips, more doctors to meet with, more high stress decisions to make and more treatments. I know that there are a few people who walk this path and go on to live a relatively normal life but it's not a high percentage. We would all like to think that we are tough enough to be in the winning group but the statistics argue that idea. From the time we were kids we have been taught or conditioned to accept the idea that if we are sick or injured you go to a doctor. Only the doctor knows how to make you well and you take the medicine no matter how bad it tastes. I think that for most things our faith in doctors and medicine is absolutely justified but I'm not so sure about cancer. Doctors have been looking for the answer to cancer for a heck of a long time and the cancer treatment statistics don't show that they have found it. Their basic tools are still cut, burn & poison. It seems to me that the focus is still to treat the symptoms and not the cause. Today my instincts are screaming that there should be a big sign on the path I am about to take that says "Danger, Bridge Out Ahead". In the final analysis I always try to trust my instincts. I believe that instinct is a basic survival mechanism we are all created with. My instincts are telling me to look for another path and the big question in my mind today is: would a biopsy lab analysis be of any value to me if I take another path?

Dave

[Guest guest]

Hi Dave.

I say to myself: "It is what it is" and get on with it. Do not let stress run your life. You do not have a diagnosis yet. Take it one step at a time. It is what it is and no amount of stress wiil change it.

My best wishes to you and yours.

"Il faut d'abord durer" Hemingway

Biopsy or not to Biopsy

I'm scheduled for my first prostate biopsy on Tuesday and I'm afraid to start down the path.

When my PSA started rising a few years ago I started reading about Prostate cancer. There is so much information out there and I know I haven't scratched the surface. I continue to see a lot of conflicting info. Who do you believe? When it comes to conventional treatment options there are life changing side effects with all of them. Those side effects don't just change your life but the life of most everyone close to you as well. There is the financial impact to the family and the negative emotional impact to everyone close to you. I know there are two kinds of stress, one good and one bad. This one is bad and it's not going to make me or anyone else healthier.

I see the biopsy as the first big event in my life as a cancer patient. As Tuesday draws near the stress & fear are building for me and my loved ones. I've watched many others go down this path and cried for them. The biopsy always seems to be followed by a rapid cascade of more exams, more trips, more doctors to meet with, more high stress decisions to make and more treatments. I know that there are a few people who walk this path and go on to live a relatively normal life but it's not a high percentage. We would all like to think that we are tough enough to be in the winning group but the statistics argue that idea.

From the time we were kids we have been taught or conditioned to accept the idea that if we are sick or injured you go to a doctor. Only the doctor knows how to make you well and you take the medicine no matter how bad it tastes. I think that for most things our faith in doctors and medicine is absolutely justified but I'm not so sure about cancer. Doctors have been looking for the answer to cancer for a heck of a long time and the cancer treatment statistics don't show that they have found it. Their basic tools are still cut, burn & poison. It seems to me that the focus is still to treat the symptoms and not the cause.

Today my instincts are screaming that there should be a big sign on the path I am about to take that says "Danger, Bridge Out Ahead". In the final analysis I always try to trust my instincts. I believe that instinct is a basic survival mechanism we are all created with. My instincts are telling me to look for another path and the big question in my mind today is: would a biopsy lab analysis be of any value to me if I take another path?

Dave

[Guest guest]

My initial reaction to your posting is that a biopsy is necessary to enable you to assess your situation as realistically as is possible.  You do have rising PSA. Denial won't change that.

Whatever the results of your biopsy may be,  try to use them beneficially.  Leverage it into a meaningful conversation with your physicians. Have written questions. Take notes. Bring someone with you to help you with other questions and with their listening.

I'm pretty open to talking with people about my cancer. I'm coming up on 4 years since my surgery.  So far, all is good for me. My life is very normal (well, at least for me :-)  ). I continue to be amazed at the number of men whom I have known for years who come forward and tell me they are prostate cancer survivors,  once they find out I have the same malady. Their lives are very normal and happy as well. It is my sense that there are more of these folks out there than you might think.

Have confidience and don't presuppose that you will have problems.  Only time will tell where this path leads you.

Coy

, Michigan USA

 

    I'm scheduled for my first prostate biopsy on Tuesday and I'm afraid to start down the path.

When my PSA started rising a few years ago I started reading about Prostate cancer.  There is so much information out there and I know I haven't scratched the surface.  I continue to see a lot of conflicting info.  Who do you believe?  When it comes to conventional treatment options there are life changing side effects with all of them.  Those side effects don't just change your life but the life of most everyone close to you as well.  There is the financial impact to the family and the negative emotional impact to everyone close to you.  I know there are two kinds of stress, one good and one bad.  This one is bad and it's not going to make me or anyone else healthier.

    I see the biopsy as the first big event in my life as a cancer patient.  As Tuesday draws near the stress & fear are building for me and my loved ones.  I've watched many others go down this path and cried for them.  The biopsy always seems to be followed by a rapid cascade of more exams, more trips, more doctors to meet with, more high stress decisions to make and more treatments.  I know that there are a few people who walk this path and go on to live a relatively normal life but it's not a high percentage.  We would all like to think that we are tough enough to be in the winning group but the statistics argue that idea. 

    From the time we were kids we have been taught or conditioned to accept the idea that if we are sick or injured you go to a doctor.  Only the doctor knows how to make you well and you take the medicine no matter how bad it tastes.  I think that for most things our faith in doctors and medicine is absolutely justified but I'm not so sure about cancer.  Doctors have been looking for the answer to cancer for a heck of a long time and the cancer treatment statistics don't show that they have found it.  Their basic tools are still cut, burn & poison.  It seems to me that the focus is still to treat the symptoms and not the cause.

    Today my instincts are screaming that there should be a big sign on the path I am about to take that says " Danger, Bridge Out Ahead " .  In the final analysis I always try to trust my instincts.  I believe that instinct is a basic survival mechanism we are all created with.  My instincts are telling me to look for another path and the big question in my mind today is: would a biopsy lab analysis be of any value to me if I take another path?

Dave

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ginny and Dave,

Apparently the only thing you have so far are some PSA readings and one

or more

digital exam results. Your biopsy should do much to clarify your

situation to determine the level of prostate cancer (PCa) you may or

may not have. If your Gleason is 3+3 and if your age and health are

not a factor you will have numerous treatment options you can

consider. If not, most men will still have a number of possible

treatment

options. More information for thinking people is usually a good thing

although it is difficult to think clearly at the moment someone is

being diagnosed with PCa. This is why it is important to learn about

the

disease, various treatments, average disease free results and average

side effect results as much as possible before your doctor tells you

the results of your biopsy (this should give you and your wife at least

a week from now to get further prepared for your diagnosis).

In fact, you may just want to self diagnose yourself today as

having (both

early and advanced) PCa so it won't be such a shock when/if you doctor

tells you either of those diagnosis - or some where in-between. If you

do not have PCa you will at least be in a better position to help

out friends and family on how they could deal with a future PCa

diagnosis. You will, of course, need to continue studying various

treatment options if your doctor confirms your self diagnosis; but

the information you already learned should help prevent you from making

a snap treatment decision at your biopsy doctor's office. By the way,

nearly all PCa treatment doctors that you meet have a great bedside

manner, and although important eventually, you would be getting

the "cart before the horse" if you made a treatment decision based on

bedside manner way before you become more fully informed on alternate

PCa

treatments.

I usually respond privately to your type of email so I don't stir up a

lot of pro and con chatter; however, it's been at least a year so I

thought I would not only try to give you some suggestions on how to

"manage your concerns" but also to try to address the concerns of

others who may be

going down the same path as you. About 8 years ago some other PCa

patients

and I decided we wanted to try to share what we learned with others so

we generated a web site that we occasional update.

About a year ago we made the last update after reviewing and comparing

about twice as many applicable medical journal publications; however,

the

same basic information is summarized in the attached paper. Even so,

it is still way

too much information for someone who has just been diagnosed but it was

designed so those individuals could look at the first few pages and get

a

pretty good idea of how different treatments stack up (based on

published treatment failure rates and serious side effect rates).

Those that want to dig deeper will find information backing

up the numbers that are summarized up front. There is no PCa silver

bullet yet, but

regardless of what some people say not all treatments, and certainly

not all treatment centers performing the "same" treatment, get the

same results. In addition, not all treatments use the same

measurements so we

attempted to normalize all long term disease free results to a PSA of

0.2 ng/ml

or less. This does make the paper and the website

(www.rcogpatients.com) an opinion but both sets of information are

presented so the reader can see what was actually published.

Carl

Ginny & Dave wrote:

I'm scheduled for my first prostate biopsy on Tuesday and I'm afraid to

start down the path.

When

my PSA started rising a few years ago I started reading about Prostate

cancer. There is so much information out there and I know I haven't

scratched the surface. I continue to see a lot of conflicting info.

Who do you believe? When it comes to conventional treatment options

there are life changing side effects with all of them. Those side

effects don't just change your life but the life of most everyone close

to you as well. There is the financial impact to the family and the

negative emotional impact to everyone close to you. I know there are

two kinds of stress, one good and one bad. This one is bad and it's

not going to make me or anyone else healthier.

I see the biopsy as the first big event in my life as a cancer

patient. As Tuesday draws near the stress & fear are building for

me and my loved ones. I've watched many others go down this path and

cried for them. The biopsy always seems to be followed by a rapid

cascade of more exams, more trips, more doctors to meet with, more high

stress decisions to make and more treatments. I know that there are a

few people who walk this path and go on to live a relatively normal

life but it's not a high percentage. We would all like to think that

we are tough enough to be in the winning group but the statistics argue

that idea.

>From the time we were kids we have been taught or conditioned to

accept the idea that if we are sick or injured you go to a doctor.

Only the doctor knows how to make you well and you take the medicine no

matter how bad it tastes. I think that for most things our faith in

doctors and medicine is absolutely justified but I'm not so sure about

cancer. Doctors have been looking for the answer to cancer for a heck

of a long time and the cancer treatment statistics don't show that they

have found it. Their basic tools are still cut, burn & poison. It

seems to me that the focus is still to treat the symptoms and not the

cause.

Today my instincts are screaming that there should be a big sign on the

path I am about to take that says "Danger, Bridge Out Ahead". In the

final analysis I always try to trust my instincts. I believe that

instinct is a basic survival mechanism we are all created with. My

instincts are telling me to look for another path and the big question

in my mind today is: would a biopsy lab analysis be of any value to me

if I take another path?

Dave

1 of 1 File(s)

M15 Comparison Report.doc

[Guest guest]

Didn't see any mention of your age, general health, or PSa test results. But

keep in mind that the biopsy is just another test, rather unpleasant one but so

are a lot of exams we have as we age. After biopsy you can get a good picture of

your actual condition, make choices that you can live (a long time) with. And

you've come to the right place for answers and info, some real sharp people on

here that are willing to help - without all the usual internet bickering.

[Guest guest]

DaveI understand your delima. It appears that your doctor cannot determine the cause of your rising PSA without a biopsy. I was in the same boat 3 years ago. I choose the biopsy and was diagnosed with cancer. I elected surgery, ADT and subsequent radiation therapy. I had capsular penetration so it was not contained in the prostate. This agressive cancer required agressive treatment. So far my PSA readings which I have done every 3. months have been steady at <.008 which is undetectable I believe that had I not undergone this treatmentI would be in an advanced state or dying by now. I was not able to have nerve sparing to retain erectile function but other

than that my life goes on at a reasonably normal state. The biopsy does not hurt it is a bit uncomfortable but there is no other way to tell what is going on in there. Other things such as BPH can cause a rise in your PSA. I am not a doctor but it seems to me that you will be taking a big risk by not following your physians recommendations. Best of luck to you,Harry To: ProstateCancerSupport Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 9:13 AM Subject: Biopsy or not to Biopsy

I'm scheduled for my first prostate biopsy on Tuesday and I'm afraid to start down the path. When my PSA started rising a few years ago I started reading about Prostate cancer. There is so much information out there and I know I haven't scratched the surface. I continue to see a lot of conflicting info. Who do you believe? When it comes to conventional treatment options there are life changing side effects with all of them. Those side effects don't just change your life but the life of most everyone close to you as well. There is the financial impact to the family and the negative emotional impact to everyone close to you. I know there are two kinds of stress, one good and one bad. This one is bad and it's not going to make me or anyone else healthier. I see the biopsy as the first big event in my life as a cancer patient. As Tuesday draws near the stress & fear are building for me and my loved ones. I've watched many others go down this path and cried for them. The biopsy always seems to be followed by a rapid cascade of more exams, more trips, more doctors to meet with, more high stress decisions to make and more treatments. I know that there are a few people who walk this path and go on to live a relatively normal life but it's not a high percentage. We would all like to think that we are tough enough to be in the winning group but the statistics argue that idea. From the time we were kids we have been taught or conditioned to accept the idea that if we are sick or injured you go to a doctor. Only the doctor knows how to make you well and you take the medicine no matter how bad it tastes. I think that for most things our faith in doctors and medicine is absolutely justified but I'm not so sure about cancer. Doctors have been looking for the answer to cancer for a heck of a long time and the cancer treatment statistics don't show that they have found it. Their basic tools are still cut, burn & poison. It seems to me that the focus is still to treat the symptoms and not the cause. Today my instincts are screaming that there should be a big sign on the path I am about to take that says "Danger, Bridge Out Ahead". In the final analysis I always try to trust my instincts. I believe that instinct is a basic survival mechanism we are all created with. My instincts are telling me to look for another path and the big question in my mind today is: would a biopsy lab analysis be of any value to me if I take another path?

Dave

[Guest guest]

DaveIt has been a little over a year since I began the journey that you have begun and I understand the stress factor very well. You will be faced with decisions all along the way. My only advice is to gather all the information that you can, take your time and make an informed decisions. There is nothing that is 100 percent certain, only statistical probabilities. The health professionals that I have dealt with have exhibited a high degree of professionalism. I understand that this is not always the case and I feel lucky in this matter. Good LuckR.Owings

[Guest guest]

My

biopsy was only slightly uncomfortable. I was numbed up and only felt some pressure. There was a little bleeding and a little soreness for a day. It was no big deal.

Unless

your PSA is sky high, the odds of having a high grade cancer are small.

If you have an aggressive cancer make sure to get a second opinion from

a pathologist who specializes in prostate cancer. My Gleason went from a

7 to 6.

My doctor told of a patient with lower back pain who had not seen a doctor in over 20 years. His PSA

was over 1200. Even with such an advance case, there are treatment options to extend his life.

Hang in there and just take it one step at a time

Charlie D.

To: ProstateCancerSupport Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 9:13 AM Subject: Biopsy or not to Biopsy

I'm scheduled for my first prostate biopsy on Tuesday and I'm afraid to start down the path. When my PSA started rising a few years ago I started reading about Prostate cancer. There is so much information out there and I know I haven't scratched the surface. I continue to see a lot of conflicting info. Who do you believe? When it comes to conventional treatment options there are life changing side effects with all of them. Those side effects don't just change your life but the life of most everyone close to you as well. There is the financial impact to the family and the negative emotional impact to everyone close to you. I know there are two kinds of stress, one good and one bad. This one is bad and it's not going to make me or anyone else healthier. I see the biopsy as the first big event in my life as a cancer patient. As Tuesday draws near the stress & fear are building for me and my loved ones. I've watched many others go down this path and cried for them. The biopsy always seems to be followed by a rapid cascade of more exams, more trips, more doctors to meet with, more high stress decisions to make and more treatments. I know that there are a few people who walk this path and go on to live a relatively normal life but it's not a high percentage. We would all like to think that we are tough enough to be in the winning group but the statistics argue that idea. From the time we were kids we have been taught or conditioned to accept the idea that if we are sick or injured you go to a doctor. Only the doctor knows how to make you well and you take the medicine no matter how bad it tastes. I think that for most things our faith in doctors and medicine is absolutely justified but I'm not so sure about cancer. Doctors have been looking for the answer to cancer for a heck of a long time and the cancer treatment statistics don't show that they have found it. Their basic tools are still cut, burn & poison. It seems to me that the focus is still to treat the symptoms and not the cause. Today my instincts are screaming that there should be a big sign on the path I am about to take that says "Danger, Bridge Out Ahead". In the final analysis I always try to trust my instincts. I believe that instinct is a basic survival mechanism we are all created with. My instincts are telling me to look for another path and the big question in my mind today is: would a biopsy lab analysis be of any value to me if I take another path?

Dave

[Guest guest]

Dave, when you say:

" The biopsy always seems to be followed by a rapid cascade of more exams, more

trips, more doctors to meet with, more high stress decisions to make and more

treatments. I know that there are a few people who walk this path and go on to

live a relatively normal life but it's not a high percentage. We would all like

to think that we are tough enough to be in the winning group but the statistics

argue that idea. , "

It seems to me that you have failed to learn much from your readings until now.

Most men who have a biopsy because of a rising PSA are NOT diagnosed with

prostate cancer.

Most of the men who ARE diagnosed with prostate cancer go on to live a full life

for many years

The statistics show clearly that less than 3% of male deaths are due to PCa so

we men have a 97% chance of dying from something else.

I was in your position when I was diagnosed in 1996 and here I am 16 years

later, and I am not alone. Can I suggest you go along to my website at

www.yananow.org and go through the information there. And then read the one

thousand plus stories of men who have shared their experiences. There are some

bad ones, but most are good.

All the best,

Terry

Sent from my iPad

> The biopsy always seems to be followed by a rapid cascade of more exams, more

trips, more doctors to meet with, more high stress decisions to make and more

treatments. I know that there are a few people who walk this path and go on to

live a relatively normal life but it's not a high percentage. We would all like

to think that we are tough enough to be in the winning group but the statistics

argue that idea.

[Guest guest]

Well said, Charlie. It was my experience.tdr To: "ProstateCancerSupport " <ProstateCancerSupport > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 1:05 PM Subject: Re: Biopsy or not to Biopsy

My

biopsy was only slightly uncomfortable. I was numbed up and only felt some pressure. There was a little bleeding and a little soreness for a day. It was no big deal.

Unless

your PSA is sky high, the odds of having a high grade cancer are small.

If you have an aggressive cancer make sure to get a second opinion from

a pathologist who specializes in prostate cancer. My Gleason went from a

7 to 6.

My doctor told of a patient with lower back pain who had not seen a doctor in over 20 years. His PSA

was over 1200. Even with such an advance case, there are treatment options to extend his life.

Hang in there and just take it one step at a time

Charlie D.

To: ProstateCancerSupport Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 9:13 AM Subject: Biopsy or not to Biopsy

I'm scheduled for my first prostate biopsy on Tuesday and I'm afraid to start down the path. When my PSA started rising a few years ago I started reading about Prostate cancer. There is so much information out there and I know I haven't scratched the surface. I continue to see a lot of conflicting info. Who do you believe? When it comes to conventional treatment options there are life changing side effects with all of them. Those side effects don't just change your life but the life of most everyone close to you as well. There is the financial impact to the family and the negative emotional impact to everyone close to you. I know there are two kinds of stress, one good and one bad. This one is bad and it's not going to make me or anyone else healthier. I see the biopsy as the first big event in my life as a cancer patient. As Tuesday draws near the stress & fear are building for me and my loved ones. I've watched many others go down this path and cried for them. The biopsy always seems to be followed by a rapid cascade of more exams, more trips, more doctors to meet with, more high stress decisions to make and more treatments. I know that there are a few people who walk this path and go on to live a relatively normal life but it's not a high percentage. We would all like to think that we are tough enough to be in the winning group but the statistics argue that idea. From the time we were kids we have been taught or conditioned to accept the idea that if we are sick or injured you go to a doctor. Only the doctor knows how to make you well and you take the medicine no matter how bad it tastes. I think that for most things our faith in doctors and medicine is absolutely justified but I'm not so sure about cancer. Doctors have been looking for the answer to cancer for a heck of a long time and the cancer treatment statistics don't show that they have found it. Their basic tools are still cut, burn & poison. It seems to me that the focus is still to treat the symptoms and not the cause. Today my instincts are screaming that there should be a big sign on the path I am about to take that says "Danger, Bridge Out Ahead". In the final analysis I always try to trust my instincts. I believe that instinct is a basic survival mechanism we are all created with. My instincts are telling me to look for another path and the big question in my mind today is: would a biopsy lab analysis be of any value to me if I take another path?

Dave

[Guest guest]

Unless your PSA is sky high, the odds of having a high grade cancer are small. Are you sure about this?  From what I have seen here is there really doesn’t seem to be a correlation between your PSA and the grade of your cancer. A elevated PSA shows a chance for having the cancer and I would agree that a very high PSA read would certainly indicate a higher chance of cancer but I don’t think it indicates how aggressive your cancer is.  I have seen several people post here that they had an aggressive form of the cancer (gleason 8 or higher) and there PSA is relatively low.  My own story includes a Gleason score of 9 (5+4), T3C and my PSA never went above 4.6 before treatment.  As scary as that sounds 3 years latter I am still looking at a PSA of 0.02

[Guest guest]

Did you have treatment to get a lower psa?

Sent from my iPhone

[Guest guest]

The only paper I know which looks at the

incidence of prostate cancer and high grade PSA for low PSA readings is here on

my site http://www.yananow.org/PSAunder4.pdf

This is one of the papers which shows so clearly

why PSA is such a poor marker for prostate cancer because it is not prostate

cancer specific. In this study, 15% of men with a PSA that never exceeded 4.0

ng/mml underwent biopsy procedures. 15% were diagnosed with prostate cancer. Of

the 15% diagnosed, 85% had tumours with a Gleason Score under 7 while 15% had a

Gleason Score of 7 or over. To put some figures on this, since some people aren’t

too comfortable with percentages, in the study

·

2950 men

(age range, 62 to 91 years who had never had a PSA result greater than 4.0

ng/ml) underwent a biopsy procedure

·

prostate

cancer was diagnosed in 449 of the men (15.2 percent);

·

67 of

these men diagnosed with prostate cancer had a Gleason score of 7 or higher.

·

The

prevalence of prostate cancer was 6.6 percent among men with a PSA level of up

to 0.5 ng per milliliter,

·

10.1

percent among those with values of 0.6 to 1.0 ng per milliliter,

·

17.0

percent among those with values of 1.1 to 2.0 ng per milliliter,

·

23.9

percent among those with values of 2.1 to 3.0 ng per milliliter, and

·

26.9

percent among those with values of 3.1 to 4.0 ng per milliliter.

·

The

prevalence of high-grade cancers (i.e. in this study defined as GS 7 or higher)

increased from 12.5 percent of cancers associated with a PSA level of 0.5 ng

per milliliter or less to 25.0 percent of cancers associated with a PSA level

of 3.1 to 4.0 ng per milliliter.

But here’s a kicker. Most men do not

have en elevated PSA . Roughly speaking in a 1,000 men over 50

·

about

150 will have an elevated PSA – usually defined as over 4.00 ng/ml although

there are other definitions, some age related

·

if these

150 men undergo a biopsy procedure up to 35% of them – 53 might be

diagnosed with prostate cancer

·

of the

53 men diagnosed about 45 will have low grade – Gleason Score 6 disease

·

of the

850 men in this example who do not have an elevated PSA

·

if they

were to undergo a biopsy procedure despite the low PSA about 15% - 128 men –

would be diagnosed with prostate cancer

·

of the

128 men diagnosed with prostate cancer about 108 would have tumours with

a Gleason Score lower than 7

Presented like this it is clear that more

men would be diagnosed with prostate cancer, as we defined it now, 128 from the

under 4.00 ng/ml group v 53 from the over 4.00 ng/ml group. As I say this demonstrates

for me why there should be little reliance placed on PSA tests and indicates

more clearly than anything just why a more reliable test, one that is prostate

cancer specific should be developed.

All the best

Prostate men need enlightening, not

frightening

Terry Herbert - diagnosed in 1996 and

still going strong

Read A

Strange Place for unbiased information at http://www.yananow.org/StrangePlace/index.html

From:

ProstateCancerSupport

[mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of Larry Helber

Sent: Saturday, 26 May 2012 8:32

AM

To:

ProstateCancerSupport

Subject: RE:

Biopsy or not to Biopsy

Unless your PSA is sky high, the odds of having a high grade

cancer are small.

Are you sure about this? From what I have seen here is

there really doesn’t seem to be a correlation between your PSA and the

grade of your cancer. A elevated PSA shows a chance for having the cancer and I

would agree that a very high PSA read would certainly indicate a higher chance

of cancer but I don’t think it indicates how aggressive your cancer

is. I have seen several people post here that they had an aggressive form

of the cancer (gleason 8 or higher) and there PSA is relatively low. My

own story includes a Gleason score of 9 (5+4), T3C and my PSA never went above

4.6 before treatment. As scary as that sounds 3 years latter I am still

looking at a PSA of 0.02

[Guest guest]



Larry

I would guess that the odds of PCa are higher with high PSA, but agree that assumptions cannot be made.

The quirk is that some agressive PCas do not express themselves with high PSA levels.

PSA tells us some things but is just an indicator not a proof.

Oh! for a confirmed and in use test that is more positive in sorting out cancer from non cancer and pussy cat from tiger

RE: Biopsy or not to Biopsy

Unless your PSA is sky high, the odds of having a high grade cancer are small.

Are you sure about this? From what I have seen here is there really doesn’t seem to be a correlation between your PSA and the grade of your cancer. A elevated PSA shows a chance for having the cancer and I would agree that a very high PSA read would certainly indicate a higher chance of cancer but I don’t think it indicates how aggressive your cancer is. I have seen several people post here that they had an aggressive form of the cancer (gleason 8 or higher) and there PSA is relatively low. My own story includes a Gleason score of 9 (5+4), T3C and my PSA never went above 4.6 before treatment. As scary as that sounds 3 years latter I am still looking at a PSA of 0.02

[Guest guest]

..

My thanks to everyone who responded to my post. I see now that several of my impressions about PC were wrong. Terry Herbert was right when he said; "It seems to me that you have failed to learn much from your readings until now."

I have learned more in the past 24 hours than I had in the past year or more. I feel a bit embarrassed at being the class dummy but I'm glad I found the guts to post my thoughts. I'll bet there are a few other silent readers out there who learned something too. I'm 68 years old, the second oldest of seven kids. I see now that my impressions about PC have been clouded by what I've been watching up close around me for a long time. My youngest brother died from some rare thyroid cancer seven years ago. My youngest sister is fighting lung & brain cancer. My two younger brothers are fighting kidney cancer and pancreatic cancer. Don had one kidney removed and now mets are everywhere. Bob has had the pancreas removed and we hold our breath.

[Guest guest]

Dave.

From what I have read, PSA Density is the

best non-invasive test for determining the

chance of having PCa and predicting the severity

of PCa. There are of course exceptions where

it does not work.

PSA Density is simply PSA score divided by

size of Prostate. From what I have read, below .07

is excellent, .1 or below is good, .1 to .2 is questionable,

and over .2 is a reason for concern.

Duke Bahn, who is probably the top Color Doppler

guy in the U.S., says he expects a PSA Density of about

..1 as normal.

You can do PSA and get a prostate size estimate ( by DRE,

ultrasound, or MRI), before deciding on a biopsy.

I am not a doctor, just my opinion. Discuss with your doctor,

and make sure you have a good one.

Again, there are some cases of serious PCa with a very low PSA.

Doug

[Guest guest]

Get the biopsy!

THEN, get the biopsy report from the pathologist. THEN, return here with the

data. Try to get an 18 core biopsy if you can.

Do not react until you have had time to research whatever results that you get.

There is time to evaluate whatever arises.

There are excellent resources here and other sites that can be found in the

links and files area. Do NOT fear the path to information! Once you have

reliable information, then and only then, can you make an informed decision.

Rich Luxton

>

> I'm scheduled for my first prostate biopsy on Tuesday and I'm afraid to

start down the path.

>

> When my PSA started rising a few years ago I started reading about Prostate

cancer. There is so much information out there and I know I haven't scratched

the surface. I continue to see a lot of conflicting info. Who do you believe?

When it comes to conventional treatment options there are life changing side

effects with all of them. Those side effects don't just change your life but

the life of most everyone close to you as well. There is the financial impact

to the family and the negative emotional impact to everyone close to you. I

know there are two kinds of stress, one good and one bad. This one is bad and

it's not going to make me or anyone else healthier.

>

> I see the biopsy as the first big event in my life as a cancer patient.

As Tuesday draws near the stress & fear are building for me and my loved ones.

I've watched many others go down this path and cried for them. The biopsy

always seems to be followed by a rapid cascade of more exams, more trips, more

doctors to meet with, more high stress decisions to make and more treatments. I

know that there are a few people who walk this path and go on to live a

relatively normal life but it's not a high percentage. We would all like to

think that we are tough enough to be in the winning group but the statistics

argue that idea.

>

> From the time we were kids we have been taught or conditioned to accept

the idea that if we are sick or injured you go to a doctor. Only the doctor

knows how to make you well and you take the medicine no matter how bad it

tastes. I think that for most things our faith in doctors and medicine is

absolutely justified but I'm not so sure about cancer. Doctors have been

looking for the answer to cancer for a heck of a long time and the cancer

treatment statistics don't show that they have found it. Their basic tools are

still cut, burn & poison. It seems to me that the focus is still to treat the

symptoms and not the cause.

>

> Today my instincts are screaming that there should be a big sign on the

path I am about to take that says " Danger, Bridge Out Ahead " . In the final

analysis I always try to trust my instincts. I believe that instinct is a basic

survival mechanism we are all created with. My instincts are telling me to look

for another path and the big question in my mind today is: would a biopsy lab

analysis be of any value to me if I take another path?

>

> Dave

>

[Guest guest]

You are not the class dummy.but you are now a class member and a friend.

To: ProstateCancerSupport Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2012 7:48 AMSubject: Re: Biopsy or not to Biopsy

.. My thanks to everyone who responded to my post. I see now that several of my impressions about PC were wrong. Terry Herbert was right when he said; "It seems to me that you have failed to learn much from your readings until now."

I have learned more in the past 24 hours than I had in the past year or more. I feel a bit embarrassed at being the class dummy but I'm glad I found the guts to post my thoughts. I'll bet there are a few other silent readers out there who learned something too. I'm 68 years old, the second oldest of seven kids. I see now that my impressions about PC have been clouded by what I've been watching up close around me for a long time. My youngest brother died from some rare thyroid cancer seven years ago. My youngest sister is fighting lung & brain cancer. My two younger brothers are fighting kidney cancer and pancreatic cancer. Don had one kidney removed and now mets are everywhere. Bob has had the pancreas removed and we hold our breath.

[Guest guest]

Dave,

When you meet with your urologist to get the results of the biopsy (hopefully the results will be negative), take a recorder and record what he says and his answers to your questions. If the biopsy is positive for cancer you will probably forget most of what you hear after that, but you can review later if you record him. I recorded all conversations after my biopsy and then I transcribed them an d was amazed at what I had missed. After listening to the recording I had lots of questions.

Mike

To: ProstateCancerSupport Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2012 8:48 AMSubject: Re: Biopsy or not to Biopsy

.. My thanks to everyone who responded to my post. I see now that several of my impressions about PC were wrong. Terry Herbert was right when he said; "It seems to me that you have failed to learn much from your readings until now."

I have learned more in the past 24 hours than I had in the past year or more. I feel a bit embarrassed at being the class dummy but I'm glad I found the guts to post my thoughts. I'll bet there are a few other silent readers out there who learned something too. I'm 68 years old, the second oldest of seven kids. I see now that my impressions about PC have been clouded by what I've been watching up close around me for a long time. My youngest brother died from some rare thyroid cancer seven years ago. My youngest sister is fighting lung & brain cancer. My two younger brothers are fighting kidney cancer and pancreatic cancer. Don had one kidney removed and now mets are everywhere. Bob has had the pancreas removed and we

hold our breath.

[Guest guest]

Mike,Time stood still when I was DXd GL8 in '07. Couldn't hear -- was paralyzed. Without my wife keeping her head, confirming every point and asking pivotal questions, I'd still be standing there in a daze.tdr To: "ProstateCancerSupport " <ProstateCancerSupport >

Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2012 11:21 AM Subject: Re: Biopsy or not to Biopsy

Dave,

When you meet with your urologist to get the results of the biopsy (hopefully the results will be negative), take a recorder and record what he says and his answers to your questions. If the biopsy is positive for cancer you will probably forget most of what you hear after that, but you can review later if you record him. I recorded all conversations after my biopsy and then I transcribed them an d was amazed at what I had missed. After listening to the recording I had lots of questions.

Mike

To: ProstateCancerSupport Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2012 8:48 AMSubject: Re: Biopsy or not to Biopsy

.. My thanks to everyone who responded to my post. I see now that several of my impressions about PC were wrong. Terry Herbert was right when he said; "It seems to me that you have failed to learn much from your readings until now."

I have learned more in the past 24 hours than I had in the past year or more. I feel a bit embarrassed at being the class dummy but I'm glad I found the guts to post my thoughts. I'll bet there are a few other silent readers out there who learned something too. I'm 68 years old, the second oldest of seven kids. I see now that my impressions about PC have been clouded by what I've been watching up close around me for a long time. My youngest brother died from some rare thyroid cancer seven years ago. My youngest sister is fighting lung & brain cancer. My two younger brothers are fighting kidney cancer and pancreatic cancer. Don had one kidney removed and now mets are everywhere. Bob has had the pancreas removed and we

hold our breath.

[Guest guest]

HI GUYS MY NAME IS DENNIS AKA MR BASEBALL, I NEED ALL OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND EVEN PRAYERS FOR MY CURRENT SITUATION.

IN DEC 2010 I WAS DIAGNOSED WITH STAGE 4 METASTIC PC WITH A GLEASON SCORE OF 7. THE CANCER HAD SPREAD TO THE BONES.

I INITIALLY TOOK A PILL CALLED CASODEX WHICH BROUGHT MY SCORE DOWN TO 1.6 IN THE 1ST YEAR. IN APRIL 2012 I HAD A FOLLOW

UP PSA SCORE OF 17.4. THE LESIONS ON MY BONES HAD INCREASED. MY ONCOLOGIST DR COLUZZI IN IRVINE CA SUGGESTED A LOW

DOSE 3X OF CHEMOTHERAPY, OTHER THAN LOSING SOME HAIR WHAT IS THE NEGATIVES OF THIS TREATMENT.

SINCERELY DENNIS VELTZ

Re: Biopsy or not to Biopsy

.. My thanks to everyone who responded to my post. I see now that several of my impressions about PC were wrong. Terry Herbert was right when he said; "It seems to me that you have failed to learn much from your readings until now."

I have learned more in the past 24 hours than I had in the past year or more. I feel a bit embarrassed at being the class dummy but I'm glad I found the guts to post my thoughts. I'll bet there are a few other silent readers out there who learned something too. I'm 68 years old, the second oldest of seven kids. I see now that my impressions about PC have been clouded by what I've been watching up close around me for a long time. My youngest brother died from some rare thyroid cancer seven years ago. My youngest sister is fighting lung & brain cancer. My two younger brothers are fighting kidney cancer and pancreatic cancer. Don had one kidney removed and now mets are everywhere. Bob has had the pancreas removed and we hold our breath.

[Guest guest]

" kmgdv@... " wrote:

> HI GUYS MY NAME IS DENNIS AKA MR BASEBALL, I NEED ALL OF YOUR

> KNOWLEDGE AND EVEN PRAYERS FOR MY CURRENT SITUATION.

> IN DEC 2010 I WAS DIAGNOSED WITH STAGE 4 METASTIC PC WITH A

> GLEASON SCORE OF 7.  THE CANCER HAD SPREAD TO THE BONES.

> I INITIALLY TOOK A PILL CALLED CASODEX WHICH BROUGHT MY SCORE

> DOWN TO 1.6 IN THE 1ST YEAR.  IN APRIL 2012 I HAD A FOLLOW UP

> PSA SCORE OF 17.4.  THE LESIONS ON MY BONES HAD INCREASED.  MY

> ONCOLOGIST DR COLUZZI IN IRVINE CA SUGGESTED A LOW DOSE 3X OF

> CHEMOTHERAPY, OTHER THAN LOSING SOME HAIR WHAT IS THE NEGATIVES

> OF THIS TREATMENT.

Dennis,

There are many other unpleasant side effects besides hair loss.

Some patients experience a lot of them.  Some experience very

few.

The National Cancer Institute has a number of non-technical,

patient oriented pamphlets available online about chemotherapy.

See for example:

  http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/coping/chemotherapy-and-you

  http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/coping/chemo-side-effects

The second booklet listed above has a long list of side effects,

focusing especially on what is most important to notice about

each one and what you should report to your doctor or try to take

care of yourself.  These booklets are not prostate cancer

specific but they contain information that will be helpful for

prostate cancer chemo patients.

I have not had chemotherapy myself.  My impression from talking

to men who have had it is that nobody finds it pleasant, but some

found it quite bearable and continued working throughout a course

of chemo, while a few got so sick in the very first infusion that

they could not continue without risk of dying from the

chemotherapy itself.

Was Casodex the only treatment you have had?  Have you also had

injections of Lupron or one of the similar drugs to suppress

testosterone production?

If you have already been on Lupron and your PSA never got below

1.6, the doctor may think that you're not going to respond to any

hormone therapy.  That may be why he's recommending chemotherapy.

He might be right (at any rate, he knows a lot more than I do.)

Assuming that you really have exhausted hormone therapies, then

if I were you I believe that I would want to try the chemo.  It

might do nothing for you.  It might cause you a lot of problems.

But on the other hand it might help you a lot and be quite

bearable.

Different people have different reactions to the drugs.  You

won't know how much it helps or how easy it is to take until you

try it.  You can always stop taking it if you really don't like

and would rather do without it.

If you do get chemo, read the NCI booklets.  Find out what drugs

and what adjuvant treatments are desirable with the chemo.  For

example some doctors give their patients ice chips to suck on and

ice water to put their finger in while the chemo is infusing in

order to reduce neuropathies.  Many give prednisone along with

the chemo to reduce side effects.  Some give anti-nausea drugs.

Ideally you want a doctor who cares about these issues and tries

hard to help you with them.

Best of luck.

    Alan

[Guest guest]

Mr. Baseball,My DX in '07 is almost a mirror-image of yours, but my PSA was 124. Stage 4. GL 8 (4+4), with mets on bones and pelvic lymph nodes. Aside from going on HT immediately. Like you, among the meds I took was Casodex. Now take Avodart.After doing numerous protocols -- including phase 3 trials -- to keep my PSA down, Nilutamide did the trick for 13 months, only to discover I'd been taking a placebo. My wife and I didn't look a gift horse in the mouth.Unlike you, the Onc's suggestion to start Taxotere came much later, when my PSA was spiking and it was back over 100.After my 21st Taxotere infusion, it's down

to 17 (after briefly dropping to 9). Lost most of my body hair (not on my head) in the years I've been on HT, nothing more on chemo. Have some lower-foot edema, but nothing debilitating.And thanks to my wife insisting I get something for sleep apnea (though I look like Hannible Lector wearing it), I have boundless energy.Hope there's something of help, and allays some of your concerns.best,tdr From: "kmgdv@..."

To: ProstateCancerSupport Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 12:44 PM Subject: Re: Biopsy or not to Biopsy

HI GUYS MY NAME IS DENNIS AKA MR BASEBALL, I NEED ALL OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND EVEN PRAYERS FOR MY CURRENT SITUATION.

IN DEC 2010 I WAS DIAGNOSED WITH STAGE 4 METASTIC PC WITH A GLEASON SCORE OF 7. THE CANCER HAD SPREAD TO THE BONES.

I INITIALLY TOOK A PILL CALLED CASODEX WHICH BROUGHT MY SCORE DOWN TO 1.6 IN THE 1ST YEAR. IN APRIL 2012 I HAD A FOLLOW

UP PSA SCORE OF 17.4. THE LESIONS ON MY BONES HAD INCREASED. MY ONCOLOGIST DR COLUZZI IN IRVINE CA SUGGESTED A LOW

DOSE 3X OF CHEMOTHERAPY, OTHER THAN LOSING SOME HAIR WHAT IS THE NEGATIVES OF THIS TREATMENT.

SINCERELY DENNIS VELTZ

Re: Biopsy or not to Biopsy

.. My thanks to everyone who responded to my post. I see now that several of my impressions about PC were wrong. Terry Herbert was right when he said; "It seems to me that you have failed to learn much from your readings until now."

I have learned more in the past 24 hours than I had in the past year or more. I feel a bit embarrassed at being the class dummy but I'm glad I found the guts to post my thoughts. I'll bet there are a few other silent readers out there who learned something too. I'm 68 years old, the second oldest of seven kids. I see now that my impressions about PC have been clouded by what I've been watching up close around me for a long time. My youngest brother died from some rare thyroid cancer seven years ago. My youngest sister is fighting lung & brain cancer. My two younger brothers are fighting kidney cancer and pancreatic cancer. Don had one kidney removed and now mets are everywhere. Bob has had the pancreas removed and we hold our breath.