Fw: Garth Nicholson(radio show with Dr Mazlen)

[Guest guest]

> Dr. Mazlen

> Today we have a very important show from both the medical and research

> standpoints, this is a highlight. We're going to be talking live in just a

> minute with Dr. Garth L. Nicolson, Chief Scientific Officer and Research

> Professor, Professor of Internal Medicine and Chief of the Institute for

> Molecular Medicine which is in Huntington Beach, California. With no

> reservation, Dr. Nicolson, in my opinion, is one of the foremost

authorities in

> the world on the mycoplasmas and related infections. Welcome to our show,

Dr.

> Nicolson.

> Prof. Nicolson

> Thanks for having me on board.

>

> Dr. Mazlen

> We're delighted to have you on board. It's an exciting thing for us

because a

> lot of people's health and lives may hang in the balance on the work that

> you're doing and publishing. Could you tell our listening audience some of

the

> advances in this area of mycoplasma disease causation, since you were a

guest

> in the year?

>

> Prof. Nicolson

> Well, I think what we've done in the intervening period of time is that

we've

> really nailed down the fact that chronic infections are a very important

aspect

> of a variety of different chronic illnesses, from rheumatoid arthritis,

chronic

> fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia syndrome, inflammatory bowel disease, a lot

of

> respiratory diseases, chronic asthma, and so on and not only mycoplasma

but a

> variety of other chronic infections as well and people, I think, in the

past

> did not realize the extent, or the involvement of these types of

infections in

> these chronic disorders and the fact that these disorders can be either

> causative or they can a cofactor in the disease, that is be an important

> element in the disease or it can even be operative if the infections after

the

> disease are triggered by something else and they're involved in the

progression

> of the disease and making it worse.

>

> Dr. Mazlen

> How many years can you have a mycoplasma infection without being aware of

it by

> a diagnostic procedure?

>

> Prof. Nicolson

> Well, it's not really well known. We do know, for example, from the Gulf

War

> that it took some patients as long as three years before they started

> exhibiting signs and symptoms of infection that we felt occur in 1991 and

their

> family members, when they came down there was often a delay anywhere from

6

> months to 2 years before they showed signs and symptoms. So, there's a

> significant delay.

>

> Dr. Mazlen

> How long can it stay in your body if you don't treat it?

>

> Prof. Nicolson

> Well, we don't know. This is one of the important questions to which we'd

like

> the answer. We do know that some people in the general population will

test

> positive, a few percent, for example, and we don't know if these are

people

> that will ultimately become sick because of the long latency of this type

of

> infection or whether they're just carriers.

>

> Dr. Mazlen

> Of course, and you make the point, in many of your papers that this is a

slow

> growing organism.

>

> Prof. Nicolson

> It's very slow growing and I think that's why these problems show up only

after

> a very long latency period.

>

> Dr. Mazlen

> Now, you mentioned in the letter that you wrote to me recently, that

you've

> learned that as of 1994 over 6,000 U.S. soldiers have died of infectious,

> chemical exposures and other causes from operation Desert Storm and that

the

> numbers are much higher. What's going on there in your opinion?

>

> Prof. Nicolson

> Well we don't know the actual numbers, because the actual numbers are

> classified. We've heard everything from 15,000 to more than 20,000 of our

> veterans have died of a variety of different illnesses including these

very

> unusual chronic infections that can progress.

>

> Dr. Mazlen

> And, of course, I want to congratulate you on your efforts to bring this

to the

> attention of Congress where you have testified. Now, you mention also that

> there is a study ongoing, a multi-center clinical trial based on your work

on

> treatment with the VA. What's that about?

>

> Prof. Nicolson

> Well, that 6 million dollar trial is really to diagnose and treat Gulf War

> Veterans who have mycoplasma illnesses and it's taking place at over 30 VA

and

> DoD institutions around the country and we hope within a year, a year and

a

> half that we'll get information about the antibiotic treatment that we've,

of

> course, developed to treat these types of infections.

>

> Dr. Mazlen

> We're going to get back to that in a few minutes, but maybe you could just

tell

> us very briefly... you mentioned that you're now using a forensic PCR or

> polymerase chain reaction technique for diagnosing this disease and I know

it's

> going to be available because you're opening up a new center, you have a

new

> international diagnostic lab which is now open. What does this forensic

PCR

> test mean?

>

> Prof. Nicolson

> Well the forensic PCR test is simply using some of the tools of forensic

> pathology where you can isolate very small amounts of blood, blood cells

like

> white blood cells that have DNA and then couple that with an amplification

> technique, polymerase chain reaction, you have a very sensitive tool to

find

> these infections inside the blood of a patient, and up until just a few

years

> ago when we first started using this it was very difficult to find these

types

> of infections and that's why you didn't hear very much about it.

>

> Dr. Mazlen

> Well, I've noticed that already in my practice, because I've been applying

the

> variety of tests to patients based on your early work, I've been finding

that

> the standard antibody testing which is typical IgG and IgM for mycoplasma

> pneumoniae, for example, is not at all a valid test compared to PCR. Just

how

> bad is it in terms of making the diagnosis? How inaccurate?

>

> Prof. Nicolson

> Well, I think it's very inaccurate and the reason for that is that these

> infections are intracellular, that is, they get inside the cells in your

> tissues and because they reside inside the cells they don't stimulate much

of

> an immune response. There's been some very interesting animal studies that

were

> published by the army, the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, that shows

that

> if you take these types of infectious agents like mycoplasma fermentans

and

> inject them into monkeys, they don't show any antibody response until

years

> later and only a few months before they die. So these can cause a fatal

> progressive disease, so they can be dangerous and antibodies won't really

pick

> this up until a person has very well progressed in the disease process.

>

> Dr. Mazlen

> Well that, of course, is alarming and it also points out the opportunity

to use

> the new testing in order to be able to offer therapy to patients early

before

> this type of progression and for that, we thank you for bringing that to

the

> attention of the medical community at large and to Congress as well. Now,

what

> about Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, what's happening with the patients there

who

> might have mycoplasma infections?

>

> Prof. Nicolson

> We're finding about 60% of these patients do have these types of

infections and

> we're also looking at other types of chronic infections like chlamydial

> infections. There are a very high percentage that have those. And we just

have

> a study coming out in a European microbiology journal showing that with

time,

> Chronic Fatigue Syndrome patients tend to collect these infections and so

> patients who've been sick a decade or more tend to have multiple

infections and

> they also tend to have worsening signs and symptoms, that is patients that

have

> the multiple infections, there signs and symptoms slowly become worse, so

we

> can actually tag the number of infectious agents, the number of different

> types, the severity of the disease and also the length of the disease

process.

> So this explains why so few patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome ever

recover

> from their illness. With time their immune systems are compromised, they

can

> collect these opportunistic infections and they will make them worse or

keep

> them just as sick as they were before and they can't seem to recover.

>

> Dr. Mazlen

> That's certainly true from what I've seen over 20 years. In addition to

that I

> have patients that you've diagnosed with your laboratory testing who have

> multiple infections of mycoplasma and the ones with m.hominus, in

particular,

> are pretty sick and they have that in combination with others which you

mention

> in your paper and the paper entitled " Multiple Mycoplasma Infections

Detected

> in Blood of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia Syndrome Patients "

and

> that's in the European Journal of Clinical Microbiology and Infectious

> Diseases. I'll give you the number where you can reach the Institute for

> Molecular Medicine and, of course, Dr. Nicolson which is 714-903-2900.

Also you

> may fax your messages to them at 714-379-2082. Garth, tell me about some

> progress in the area of treatment. What have you been seeing and what are

you

> recommending. I know that doxycycline is one of the staples, but what else

are

> you using.

>

> Prof. Nicolson

> Actually, we're using several different antibiotics, sometimes these have

to be

> cycled in. And in some patients that are really severely sick we often

have to

> combine different antibiotics. I'll be glad to send people information on

that

> if they write to me at the Institute for Molecular Medicine or they could

go to

> our website at www.immed.org and find information about treatment, but the

> antibiotics I think are very useful in suppressing the infections but as

you

> know, this is not the whole story, most people that have these infections

have

> compromised immune systems and so we have to worry about building them

back up.

> Proper nutrition is very important, proper vitamins and minerals are

important.

> A lot of these patients have poor absorptions so they're not getting the

proper

> B vitamins and other essential materials that they need to overcome these

> illnesses so we have to attend to a lot of different problems with these

> people, not just a matter of suppressing the infection.

>

> Dr. Mazlen

> Also, one interesting thing, because we know that these patients tend to

have

> relapses when there's low oxygen tension like in air travel, for example,

which

> you pointed out in an earlier show, and we're going to get back to that in

> terms of treatment with hyperbaric oxygenation in a minute, but what does

the

> mycoplasma do to the oxygen delivery system in the blood?

>

> Prof. Nicolson

> Well, we're not exactly sure what the mycoplasma does to that in these

patients

> but we do know that it does infect the endothelium, the cell lining the

> vascular systems and causes changes, we think, possibly in the exchange of

> oxygen in the tissues. We do know that higher oxygen will suppress these

types

> of infections because basically they're what you call borderline anerobic

> infections, so we know that the people that take long flights often in

> pressurized aircrafts at high altitudes, often have relapses after they

land if

> they have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome or fibromyalgia or other chronic

illnesses.

> We often see this is air crews and airline pilots and we're working with a

> number airline pilots on this. We just established near our institute a

> hyperbaric center, it's called Molecular Hyperbaric Medicine and this is

headed

> by Dr. Irwin, he's actually the son of the former Deputy Surgeon

General

> of the Navy and he's very interested in hyperbaric medicine, so we'll be

> offering that to patients along with some of the other therapies that

we've

> been trying to develop to treat these chronic illnesses.

>

> Dr. Mazlen

> So you see that as an adjunctive therapy along with antibiotics.

>

> Prof. Nicolson

> Yes, we do, and particularly people that have acute episodes, I think it's

> quite useful. It's not in itself going to help people overcome these types

of

> infections, because the generally high oxygen will suppress these

infections

> but will not eliminate them. It will suppress the growth of them and some

of

> the signs and symptoms will be temporarily alleviated but they eventually

come

> back again, so we have to really get at these infections and that just

requires

> long term antibiotics and nutritional support.

>

> Dr. Mazlen

> OK. That's all very important and people can write to you for that

information.

> I have an important question to ask you. It's a leading question. You may

not

> be able to answer it. But can these chronic mycoplasma infections, in some

way,

> maybe not yet known, contribute to the causation of cancer?

>

> Prof. Nicolson

> Well, this is a hot topic right now because we know that these

microorganisms

> give off genotoxic substances, that is substances that can modify our

genes and

> actually mutate them. Some of these are activated oxygen species that will

> attack DNA. We do know that if you take these types of mycoplasmas that we

> found in patients and put them into cell cultures that they will result in

> spontaneous transformation of those cells eventually and lower their

threshold

> to chemicals thousands of fold, so in effect, what they may be doing is

> lowering the threshhold of carcinogenesis. You if you have these

infections, it

> might make you more prone to have cancer. We just don't know, there's not

> enough information on this right now, but it's certainly a troubling sign.

>

> Dr. Mazlen

> Well, that's exactly why I asked you and I appreciate your candid answer

about

> it. What about the actual damage to chromosones themselves because some

people

> have reported, and this is Urnovitz's work with others, that there's been

> nucleic acid or pieces resulting from chromosomal damage found in Gulf War

> patients. What about that?

>

> Prof. Nicolson

> Right now we don't know if the damage that they're looking at is the

damage

> caused by mycoplasmas or not because they only find it in one half of the

> specimens that they look at that's about the same percentage that we find

are

> infected with mycoplasma and we know that the mycoplasma gives out

substances

> which can cause the same kind of chromosome damage that they're looking

at. The

> chromosome damage is not a new thing. This has been seen for years. In

fact,

> there's about a 20 year literature history on this, and what's been found

is

> even if you look at smokers compared to non-smokers, there's an increase

in

> chromosome fragility or chromosome damage, so this is something that you

see

> quite often in people that have been exposed to toxic materials of any

type, be

> it biological or chemical or radiological.

>

> Dr. Mazlen

> OK, now that's fair and that's certainly in the literature. There's no

question

> about the fact that that's been shown. What about, however, the possible

> connection from this genotoxic stuff that's put out by mycoplasma and the

birth

> defects noted in the children of the Gulf War veterans?

>

> Prof. Nicolson

> Well, again, we just don't know. There's just not enough research on this

to

> know whether this contributed to, in fact, the birth defects that are

found in

> Gulf War famililes, particularly in their offspring, or whether that was

caused

> primarily by chemicals or both. It's just a very very difficult area to

work in

> because of the multiple toxic exposures that occurred during the Gulf War.

>

> Dr. Mazlen

> Well, of course, I knew it was a difficult question. But I wanted to ask

you

> because we needed to get even your theoretical thinking about it and how

other

> people start looking at it and thinking about it also and for that I

appreciate

> even mentioning even a tentative possibility of it's connection because it

> needs to be explored. Garth, I have a question for you about the

mycoplasma's

> effect on the host immune system. You've had papers published on this and

you

> call it a stealth type of response. Talk to the audience about this

mycoplasma

> stealth activity is.

>

> Prof. Nicolson

> Well, these types of microorganisms, as I mentioned, penetrate into cells

and

> tissues and they can virtually go into any organ or tissue in the body. We

find

> some patients, for example, that have coronary problems because of these

> infections. My own father has this, by the way, when he had a mycoplasma

> pneumoniae infection and he had endocarditis, and was really headed for a

major

> heart attack. We were able to diagnose it and turn that around and now

he's

> made a full recovery. We just don't know how many people are in this

situation

> that might have liver failure, lung problems with chronic pneumonia, heart

> problems, coronary problems, renal problems, problems with their kidneys

> because of infections. These types of infections are insidious because

when

> they hide inside the cells they can really escape from the immune system,

but

> these types of infections also have another property that also helps them

> escape from the immune system and that is that they can suppress the

immune

> system. They can actually attack the immune system, just like they attack

other

> cells in our body, and this ends up in some cases resulting in a

suppression of

> immunity in general. And so we can have patients whose immune systems are

> compromised and this leaves them wide open to a variety of other

opportunistic

> infections. And these patients, which are the worst, I think, to deal

with,

> they have a variety of different infections. They yeast infections, they

have

> other bacterial infections, viruses, and so on and it's extremely

difficult

> dealing with these patients, because building back their immune systems is

very

> very difficult.

>

> Dr. Mazlen

> I certainly can second that because I've seen that, and I'm dealing with

it

> currently in my practice. And I want to say that Dr. Nicolson has helped

me

> greatly by his work and by his advice over time and he has protocols which

you

> can also get for your treating physicians and healthcare personnel. Once

again

> his phone number at the Institute for Molecular Medicine is 714-903-2900

and

> can you give your website again?

>

> Prof. Nicolson

> Yes, it's www.immed.org. If you remember " immediately " you can remember

the

> website.

>

> Dr. Mazlen

> I think, Garth, and I'm extending an information to you to come to New

York and

> we'll organize a symposium on mycoplasma illnesses. I want to help put it

> together with you so, let's work on that or something like it in the

future

> because your work is just extremely important. A lot of people's health is

> slipping by the boards, or as they say, slipping through the cracks, so to

> speak, and they're not being treated adequately and not enough serious

> attention is being paid to these problems. I've actually had infectious

disease

> specialists call me to ask me about things like this looking for advise

with

> Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, for example, in terms of what type of multiple

> infections may be present and this really is pandora's box. Almost

anything is

> possible, as you pointed out. And as you mentioned about your father with

the

> infected endocarditis, people could even go on to die, I've seen it

happen. We

> can't work fast enough or do too much in this area. I urge you to support

the

> Institute for Molecular Medicine. This is my personal appeal to you and I

want

> to say that we're delighted. We're going to want to have you back again

but

> we're going to want to do some other things to get this information out

and

> we're going to try to work it out in the future. How contagious is it,

Garth?

>

> Prof. Nicolson

> Well, it's only moderately contagious. It does seem to require some time

to

> pass it. The most at risk are immediate family members because they make

the

> closest contact with an individual who is sick.

>

> Dr. Mazlen

> What about children?

>

> Prof. Nicolson

> Well, children can pick this up. We have a lot of family members who have

> gotten sick because of it. Children's immune systems are a little bit

stronger

> and some of them are able to withstand it, but we have a lot of children

in

> Gulf War Illness families who are sick because of this.

>

> Transcribed by

>

> Carolyn Viviani

> carolynv@...

>

> Permission is given to repost, copy and distribute this transcript as long

as

> my name is not removed from it.

>

> © 1999 G. Mazlen, M.D.

>