Nazis stole my dictionary! Re: Brainwashing

[Guest guest]

,

If you weren't so defensive, you would have noticed that I was just

saying that it didn't matter what someone else thought about you or

your opinions.

When I made mention of the Marque de Sade, and the movie " Quil " , I

was trying to change the subject. Your S & M comment as it relates

to me wasn't very nice. You claimed that M called you lazy and you

obviously are upset, hurt, whatever. Didn't you just do the same to

me?

, if you were confused about what I was saying, why didn't you

just ask instead of assuming that I was trying to flame you?

Now I remember why I have been a lurker for six months. Geez.

CAG

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 'Brainwashing' is a political term, not a valid

> > psychological

> > > > > > concept.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The idea was originally formulated in an attempt to

> > explain

> > > > > > away the embarassing behavior of some U.S. P.O.W.s

during

> > the

> > > > > > Korean conflict. In short order, though, it was strongly

> > > > > > criticized. Few, maybe no, academic psychologists would

> > employ

> > > > the

> > > > > > concept today.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Human beings are suggestible, of course. But the

> > processes

> > > > by

> > > > > > which people come to affiliate with new groups and adopt

a new

> > > > > > ideology, or by which they are led to do surprising things

> > under

> > > > the

> > > > > > direction of authority figures, are much more complex that

> > > > > > the 'brainwashing' concept implies.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > People are dynamic actors. They make choices in new

> > > > situations

> > > > > > based upon THEIR values. If you look at the most cited

> > classical

> > > > > > studies in this area - Milgram, Zimbardo, etc. - you do

NOT

> > find

> > > > > > brainwashing.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What you do find is that some people do terrible

things

> > when

> > > > > > encouraged by a group, or by an authority figure. But

other

> > > > people

> > > > > > resist tremendous pressure without bending. The make-up

of

> > the

> > > > > > individual, the nature of the group or authority figure

> > providing

> > > > the

> > > > > > social influence, and the specific new behavior that is

being

> > > > > > encouraged all play into the process. The result is both

> > dynamic

> > > > and

> > > > > > complex. The simplistic idea of 'brainwashing' is flat-

out

> > > > wrong..

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Remember, at My Lai, most of the troops joined in the

> > killing.

> > > > > > But several American soldiers risked their OWN lives to

try to

> > > > stop

> > > > > > what was going on.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You get the same pattern in the Nazi extermination

camp

> > > > > > literature. Some prisoners - even some who were highly

> > respected

> > > > > > as " humanists " before being arrested by the Nazis - ended

up

> > > > behaving

> > > > > > very badly in the camps. Other prisoners behaved with

great

> > > > courage

> > > > > > and humanism under the same set of pressures. (Jehovah's

> > > > Witnesses,

> > > > > > for reasons I can't explain, seem to have behaved

particularly

> > > > nobly

> > > > > > in the death camps).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The story is the same in the modern 'new religions'

> > literature

> > > > > > (the 'cult' concept is sort of out of vogue). The

specifics

> > of

> > > > the

> > > > > > situation, the values and personality of the potential

> > recruit,

> > > > and

> > > > > > the make-up and ideology of the 'new religion' all have

to be

> > > > taken

> > > > > > into account. The idea of 'brainwashing' is hopelessly

> > > > > > oversimplistic.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The Moonies (Unification Church) are a well-studied

new

> > > > > > religion. 'Brainwashing' does NOT apply to them (but,

then,

> > it

> > > > > > applies nowhere).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > See Marc Galanter's 1983 article in the Amer. Jour.

of

> > > > > > Psychiatry on the Unification Church. The group is also

> > > > discussed in

> > > > > > his book, Cults, Faith Healing, and Coercion, 1989,

Oxford.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Two facts about the Moonies are particularly salient:

> > > > > > > 1) many recruits into the movement drop a harmful

> > alcohol

> > > > or

> > > > > > drug habit, and,

> > > > > > > 2) the movement has strong political overtones

of an

> > > > > > extreme, right-wing nature. Both of these

characteristics -

> > > > > > 'abstinence' ideology and extreme right-wing political

> > ideas -

> > > > are

> > > > > > common in many of the 'new religions' popping up in the

> > West. ----

> > > > -

> > > > > > Original Message -----

> > > > > > > From: MonaHolland@a...

> > > > > > > To: 12-step-free@y...

> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 9:11 PM

> > > > > > > Subject: Re: To Mike re insensitivity

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In a message dated 5/18/01 5:28:21 PM Pacific Daylight

> > Time,

> > > > > > > malgeo@m... writes:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic

> > > > brainwashing

> > > > > > > tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild

> > labeling.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I really have to question that, since " brainwashing "

is a

> > term

> > > > > > coined to

> > > > > > > describe what the Communist Chinese did to some

people in

> > the

> > > > > > 1950s. It was

> > > > > > > a total immersion process of controlling and depriving

> > them of

> > > > > > food, sleep,

> > > > > > > and sensory stimulation. Even tho the term is

frequently

> > > > applied

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > so-called cults, the fact is, that very few of them

> > actually

> > > > > > practice true

> > > > > > > brainwashing techniques, with a few isolated

exceptions,

> > such

> > > > as

> > > > > > fringe

> > > > > > > groups of the Moonies.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What most people actually mean when they charge AA or

> > other

> > > > > > religious

> > > > > > > movements with brainwashing, is heavy-handed

> > indoctrination.

> > > > > > THAT AA

> > > > > > > certainly does, as do many rehabs.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > --Mona--

> > > > > > >