New Labs and Ferritin Question

[Guest guest]

Okay, so Kaiser wouldn't order everything, so I've posted both Kaiser and other

lab results (some overlap). Basically, as I suspected, very low Ferritin and

low T3/RT3 ratio. 24 Hour cortisol test still pending.

My question is, why would Ferritin matter more than circulating iron for one's

tolerance of T3? Seems like circulating/available iron would be the important

thing. Are there research findings related to the Ferritin recommendations

here, or is this clinical experience talking?

Symptoms: weight gain, exercise/stress intolerance, sleepy (dry?) eyes,

fatigue, waking around 3am (but can go back to sleep)

Kaiser Results, 8am:

Vit D 15 [30-100] ng/ml

Vit B12 >1000 [>200] pg/mL

Potassium 4.6 [3.5-5.3] mEq/L

Note: results after 1week of iron supplements, stopped a day before test

Ferritin 14 [22-291] ng/ml

TIBC 353 [228-428] ug/dL

Iron 65 [35-160] ug/dL

UIBC 288 [92-365] ug/dL

Trans Sat% 18 [15-55] %

TSH 2.68 [.10-5.5] uIU/ml

Free T4 1.0 [.8-1.7] ng/ml

Serum Cortisol @8am = 18.7 (24 hour cortisol pending)

Private Lab Results (30 minutes later)

Ferritin 11 [10-291] ng/mL

Free T4 1.28 [.82-1.77] ng/dL

Free T3 2.2 [2.0-4.4] pg/mL

Rev T3 318 [90-350] pg/mL - Ratio = 6.3

Insulin 14.3 [0-24.9] uIU/mL

Thanks,

Sydney

[Guest guest]

Also, forgot to mention, basal temps around 97.5 plus or minus 1. Max temp

around 98.5. Have been as low as 95.something after weight lifting - which is

why I suspect adrenals.

>

> Okay, so Kaiser wouldn't order everything, so I've posted both Kaiser and

other lab results (some overlap). Basically, as I suspected, very low Ferritin

and low T3/RT3 ratio. 24 Hour cortisol test still pending.

>

> My question is, why would Ferritin matter more than circulating iron for one's

tolerance of T3? Seems like circulating/available iron would be the important

thing. Are there research findings related to the Ferritin recommendations

here, or is this clinical experience talking?

>

> Symptoms: weight gain, exercise/stress intolerance, sleepy (dry?) eyes,

fatigue, waking around 3am (but can go back to sleep)

>

> Kaiser Results, 8am:

> Vit D 15 [30-100] ng/ml

> Vit B12 >1000 [>200] pg/mL

> Potassium 4.6 [3.5-5.3] mEq/L

>

> Note: results after 1week of iron supplements, stopped a day before test

> Ferritin 14 [22-291] ng/ml

> TIBC 353 [228-428] ug/dL

> Iron 65 [35-160] ug/dL

> UIBC 288 [92-365] ug/dL

> Trans Sat% 18 [15-55] %

>

> TSH 2.68 [.10-5.5] uIU/ml

> Free T4 1.0 [.8-1.7] ng/ml

> Serum Cortisol @8am = 18.7 (24 hour cortisol pending)

>

>

> Private Lab Results (30 minutes later)

> Ferritin 11 [10-291] ng/mL

> Free T4 1.28 [.82-1.77] ng/dL

> Free T3 2.2 [2.0-4.4] pg/mL

> Rev T3 318 [90-350] pg/mL - Ratio = 6.3

> Insulin 14.3 [0-24.9] uIU/mL

>

> Thanks,

>

> Sydney

>

[Guest guest]

>

>Also, forgot to mention, basal temps around 97.5 plus or minus 1. Max temp

around 98.5. Have been as low as 95.something after weight lifting - which is

why I suspect adrenals.

Plus or minus 1 is screaming adrenals at me

Nick

[Guest guest]

>

>My question is, why would Ferritin matter more than circulating iron for one's

tolerance of T3? Seems like circulating/available iron would be the important

thing. Are there research findings related to the Ferritin recommendations

here, or is this clinical experience talking?

This is the Ferritin page on the STTM site

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ferritin/

Nick

[Guest guest]

Oh, Nick - really sorry - meant plus or minus .1. Ack.

>

> >

> >Also, forgot to mention, basal temps around 97.5 plus or minus 1. Max temp

around 98.5. Have been as low as 95.something after weight lifting - which is

why I suspect adrenals.

>

> Plus or minus 1 is screaming adrenals at me

>

> Nick

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah - I've read that several times and it doesn't really answer the question.

It seems to be taking Ferritin as a marker of iron, but insofar as an

interaction w/thyroid, I only see mention of iron, so it would seem like,

logically, that as long as I have enough circulating iron, I'd be able to start

taking T3.

" Biologically, insufficient iron levels may be affecting the first two of three

steps of thyroid hormone synthesis by reducing the activity of the enzyme

" thyroid peroxidase " , which is dependent on iron. Thyroid peroxidaxe brings

about the chemical reactions of adding iodine to tyrosine (amino acid), which

then produces T4 and T3. Insufficient iron levels, which low ferritin reveals,

alters and reduces the conversion of T4 to T3, besides binding T3.

Additionally, low iron levels can increase circulating concentrations of TSH

(thyroid stimulating hormone).

Iron, in addition to iodine, selenium and zinc, are essential for normal thyroid

hormone metabolism. "

>

> >

> >My question is, why would Ferritin matter more than circulating iron for

one's tolerance of T3? Seems like circulating/available iron would be the

important thing. Are there research findings related to the Ferritin

recommendations here, or is this clinical experience talking?

>

> This is the Ferritin page on the STTM site

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ferritin/

>

> Nick

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, that's a good hypothesis - I was just wondering if there's any research

data and/or if clinical experience has clearly delineated that low ferritin *in

the presence of normal levels of iron* is problematic when taking thyroid.

>

> I suspect that low ferritin puts the body into an " low iron emergency mode " ,

.... It makes sense to me that with low ferritin, the body perceives iron as

inadequate and compensates, possibly by reserving iron for " survival " or

" emergency " processes such as making red blood cells, leaving little or no iron

available for healthy thyroid function.

[Guest guest]

I suspect that low ferritin puts the body into a " low iron emergency mode " ,

similar to how an extremely low-calorie diet can put the body into a " famine "

mode. " Famine " mode was crucial for survival at one time, but it is very

different from good health.

The body allocates resources perceived as scarce very differently than it does

resources perceived as abundant. Calcium, for example:

" If blood calcium levels fall as may occur with inadequate calcium intake in the

diet, the body will compensate for this by drawing calcium out of bones "

http://www.bonehealthforlife.org.au/content/view/18/480/

It makes sense to me that with low ferritin, the body perceives iron as

inadequate and compensates, possibly by reserving iron for " survival " or

" emergency " processes such as making red blood cells, leaving little or no iron

available for healthy thyroid function.

> >

> > >

> > >My question is, why would Ferritin matter more than circulating iron for

one's tolerance of T3? Seems like circulating/available iron would be the

important thing. Are there research findings related to the Ferritin

recommendations here, or is this clinical experience talking?

> >

> > This is the Ferritin page on the STTM site

> >

> > http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ferritin/

> >

> > Nick

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Don't know about research, just know many folks whose difficulties with taking

T3 were resolved when low ferritin levels were raised.

I wish I could find some research data supporting this. It would make it a lot

easier to educate doctors about it!

The May 2003 British Medical Journal published a study which showed that

patients with low ferritin, but normal hemoglobin and hematocrit, had fatigue

that was reversed by iron treatment. What the study didn't show was the exact

mechanism by which this fatigue was reversed; it could well have been

partly/wholly improved thyroid functioning.

> >

> > I suspect that low ferritin puts the body into an " low iron emergency mode " ,

.... It makes sense to me that with low ferritin, the body perceives iron as

inadequate and compensates, possibly by reserving iron for " survival " or

" emergency " processes such as making red blood cells, leaving little or no iron

available for healthy thyroid function.

>

[Guest guest]

/I would ask that question on the NTH main group as there are 5000+

members there many of whom have sealt qwith lwo ferritin issues. Perhaps

enough to convince oyu it is real. I have not EVER found the studies to

backj up much of what we know but when it si true for several thousand

people, do the studies relly matter?/

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HypoPets/

[Guest guest]

>Yeah - I've read that several times and it doesn't really answer the question.

It seems to be taking Ferritin as a marker of iron, but insofar as an

interaction w/thyroid, I only see mention of iron, so it would seem like,

logically, that as long as I have enough circulating iron, I'd be able to start

taking T3.

Yes, the " conversion and productions " issues don't stop you taking T3.

There is another mechanism happening there, it may be to do with the

deiodisation of T3 down to T3 and T1 and this process may need

iron/ferritin. This would explain T3 pooling when there is a lack of

ferritin because the T3 can't be metabolized.

When it pools some cells get enough and others don't so you get the

mix of hyper/hypo symptoms. FT3 will also be higher than you would

expect for the dose you are on under those circumstances.

Just thinking out loud here but that feels right

Nick

--

for more information on RT3 and Thyroid Resistance go to

www.thyroid-rt3.com

[Guest guest]

>Yeah - I've read that several times and it doesn't really answer the question.

It seems to be taking Ferritin as a marker of iron, but insofar as an

interaction w/thyroid, I only see mention of iron, so it would seem like,

logically, that as long as I have enough circulating iron, I'd be able to start

taking T3.

Yes, the " conversion and productions " issues don't stop you taking T3.

There is another mechanism happening there, it may be to do with the

deiodisation of T3 down to T3 and T1 and this process may need

iron/ferritin. This would explain T3 pooling when there is a lack of

ferritin because the T3 can't be metabolized.

When it pools some cells get enough and others don't so you get the

mix of hyper/hypo symptoms. FT3 will also be higher than you would

expect for the dose you are on under those circumstances.

Just thinking out loud here but that feels right

Nick

--

for more information on RT3 and Thyroid Resistance go to

www.thyroid-rt3.com

[Guest guest]

Yes - but conversely, have we ruled out, based on clinical observation, that

getting iron levels up, even before ferritin levels are normalized, is

inadequate to support T3. We have these data points (excluding adrenals, for

the time being):

1. Low Ferritin, Low Iron - T3 intolerance

2. Low Ferritin, Normal Iron - ????

3. Normal Ferritin, Low Iron - ????

4. Normal Feritin, Normal Iron - T3 tolerance

We have such a wealth of clinical data in this group, I'm just wondering if

these variables are being tracked in any systematic way. For instance, when

people report their labs and symptoms, if they are logged in an excel

spreadsheet or anything - would be a great dataset for a phd student's

dissertation or something.

Not that moderators don't have enough to do alredy, but as a

clinician/researcher, I'd want to be collecting these data somewhere other than

just in my head.

>

> Don't know about research, just know many folks whose difficulties with taking

T3 were resolved when low ferritin levels were raised.

>

[Guest guest]

Yes - but conversely, have we ruled out, based on clinical observation, that

getting iron levels up, even before ferritin levels are normalized, is

inadequate to support T3. We have these data points (excluding adrenals, for

the time being):

1. Low Ferritin, Low Iron - T3 intolerance

2. Low Ferritin, Normal Iron - ????

3. Normal Ferritin, Low Iron - ????

4. Normal Feritin, Normal Iron - T3 tolerance

We have such a wealth of clinical data in this group, I'm just wondering if

these variables are being tracked in any systematic way. For instance, when

people report their labs and symptoms, if they are logged in an excel

spreadsheet or anything - would be a great dataset for a phd student's

dissertation or something.

Not that moderators don't have enough to do alredy, but as a

clinician/researcher, I'd want to be collecting these data somewhere other than

just in my head.

>

> Don't know about research, just know many folks whose difficulties with taking

T3 were resolved when low ferritin levels were raised.

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry but that is the problem the mods DSO already have way to much to

do this is not my only group so I leave this one alot top Nick. I also

own the NTH Adrenals group wiht over 200 emails daily and sometimes

more. Now if member would liek ot compile date I am sure we could put

it both in the files and Nick on his bebsite for al lto use, but Iam

simply stretched too thin to do this.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HypoPets/

[Guest guest]

Sorry but that is the problem the mods DSO already have way to much to

do this is not my only group so I leave this one alot top Nick. I also

own the NTH Adrenals group wiht over 200 emails daily and sometimes

more. Now if member would liek ot compile date I am sure we could put

it both in the files and Nick on his bebsite for al lto use, but Iam

simply stretched too thin to do this.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HypoPets/

[Guest guest]

>

>Not that moderators don't have enough to do alredy, but as a

clinician/researcher, I'd want to be collecting these data somewhere other than

just in my head.

>

We don't have anything like enough time for that. They are all

archived in the yahoo group web portal though so if you have a LOT of

time on your hands the information is there but spread across many

threads.

I look at the messages by individual e-mails and when I see an

interesting message I flag it.

When I have any spare time I will visit those flagged messages and put

some more on the RT3 web site but I haven't done anything methodical

with labs yet.

Some people keep their own lab data in a diary and if you wanted to

collect some then they might be able to help you.

There is a phd thesis or two in the data that is around in this group

and many of the other thyroid/adrenal groups, the collected knowledge

of people like Val and Janie is so far ahead of most Drs that it's

scary.

Nick

--

for more information on RT3 and Thyroid Resistance go to

www.thyroid-rt3.com

[Guest guest]

>

>Not that moderators don't have enough to do alredy, but as a

clinician/researcher, I'd want to be collecting these data somewhere other than

just in my head.

>

We don't have anything like enough time for that. They are all

archived in the yahoo group web portal though so if you have a LOT of

time on your hands the information is there but spread across many

threads.

I look at the messages by individual e-mails and when I see an

interesting message I flag it.

When I have any spare time I will visit those flagged messages and put

some more on the RT3 web site but I haven't done anything methodical

with labs yet.

Some people keep their own lab data in a diary and if you wanted to

collect some then they might be able to help you.

There is a phd thesis or two in the data that is around in this group

and many of the other thyroid/adrenal groups, the collected knowledge

of people like Val and Janie is so far ahead of most Drs that it's

scary.

Nick

--

for more information on RT3 and Thyroid Resistance go to

www.thyroid-rt3.com

[Guest guest]

Not sure if/how info here is tracked. There is a repeating pattern of " Low

Ferritin, Normal Iron = T3 intolerance " . This can come to light after the " but

my doctor said my iron was fine " post.

If we could find a way to make this profitable for Big Pharma, then we'd have

confirming studies coming out the wazoo.

I obviously have way too much personal experience fighting the

iron/anemia/ferritin battle.

> >

> > Don't know about research, just know many folks whose difficulties with

taking T3 were resolved when low ferritin levels were raised.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry to butt in here. I would love to know the answer to the low

ferritin/normal-high iron question.

My ferritin is 28 but iron is high-normal. I don't know how much to supplement

or how this effects my T3 treatment. I do know that I seem to be one of these

strange cases that needs lots of HC and has all sorts of other conditions that

complicates the treatment.

I don't know if the iron stuff figures into that.

Ferritin and iron issues are still hard to figure out for me

Liz

[Guest guest]

Sorry to butt in here. I would love to know the answer to the low

ferritin/normal-high iron question.

My ferritin is 28 but iron is high-normal. I don't know how much to supplement

or how this effects my T3 treatment. I do know that I seem to be one of these

strange cases that needs lots of HC and has all sorts of other conditions that

complicates the treatment.

I don't know if the iron stuff figures into that.

Ferritin and iron issues are still hard to figure out for me

Liz

[Guest guest]

Ah, okay - that does answer my question. Thanks!

> > >

> > > Don't know about research, just know many folks whose difficulties with

taking T3 were resolved when low ferritin levels were raised.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Ah, okay - that does answer my question. Thanks!

> > >

> > > Don't know about research, just know many folks whose difficulties with

taking T3 were resolved when low ferritin levels were raised.

> > >

> >

>