Re: sexual intrusiveness// on the telephone, thirty years later

[Guest guest]

My nada likes doing my sexual inventory. Her latest thing, that I set a limit

to, was her focusing on how lucky I am not to have become a prostitute when I

was in my 20's. She is convinced it was " luck " .

My nada probably had relations with my father three times. To get pregnant for

me, and then for a miscarriage when I was four and then for my brother, who was

born the winter of my ninth year.

In my nada's book she is a good woman because she didn't have sex before

marriage. She was aghast when she learned I used tampons as a teenager. I guess

an intact hymen is proof of worthiness.

When a person says, " You make me feel mad.... " they are not taking

responsibility for their feelings. My nada won't say it out loud, but could she

be thinking, " Your behavior in your womanhood makes me feel ashamed of myself? "

Nada might be obsessed with my young adult sexuality because my having had sex

when she thought I was supposed to be a virgin, actually turns her

obsessive-compulsive:. On one hand her story " makes her feel bad about

herself " , but because she cannot admit that truth, since she can't allow herself

to look at it, much less take responsibility for it, she acts it out on me. The

part that keeps her hooked, like an addict, is that it makes her feel " better

than " me, and that somehow I have no moral ground to stand on.

I strongly feel that nada feels bad about herself all the time, and that to

avoid facing that she uses me as a take off point, just like a pooping pigeon,

when they land or take off..leaves THEIR crap behind on me. When I get mad at

nada for pooping on me, it confirms for her that (AKA, little Vicki,

problem child) I am to blame for her mess.

I get it now, the best thing I can do for myself is to speak my truth with love,

and realize that anger is not my friend. When I matter of factly tell her, " I

have that taken care of, mom. " Or tell her, when she tells me I am lucky I am

not a prostitute, I could utter a generality that is true for something else I

am thinking. " I think we are both lucky, mom. " (And I can be finishing my

sentence, in my head, with these words, " Yes, we're Lucky that this made up

story is about something thirty years too old. It is time we composted this

one! " )

When I set boundaries on what I will accept from her, I find ways to redirect

the conversation back to her emotions. And I no longer spare her my honesty. I

find kindness and honesty to be a real winning combination.

NOW, my only Catch-22 is this: I can't get out of hanging up the phone on

her. She can't seem to get past being angry at me for ending conversations

BEFORE damage is done and before I get mad (and leave her with me to blame for

my own anger!)

And, when it comes to sex, I find I have to exit the conversation pretty

quickly. I have no interest in talking about this topic with a nada. Wonder if

that is why she keeps bringing it up. So she can blame me when I bow out and

leave her free of " release " ?

[Guest guest]

Your growth RE how you handle your interactions with your nada, is so

remarkable. Your posts, or the tone of your posts comes across as so much more

empowered than they used to.

I'm still getting the impression that you are (a) still hoping she will change

(that she will no longer feel this need to hurt you with her sexual inventory of

you, so that she can feel superior to you, etc), and ( that you're still

feeling responsible for her feelings (such as when she gets angry when you cut

the calls short on her, not allowing her to abuse you.)

Its possible that real insight and real change may never be possible for your

nada, but you are certainly changing in a very positive way, seems to me. You

are only setting reasonable and rational boundaries with your nada and holding

to them: your boundary is simply " you're not allowed to say those things to me,

those subjects are off limits. "

You are not succumbing to the " talionic impulse " , the desire for revenge, to

hurt her back in kind for the hurt she continues to attempt to inflict on you,

and that in itself shows that your emotional maturity and emotional health far

exceeds hers.

So, its possible that this may be as good as it ever gets.

If your mother gets pissed off at you *because you won't hold still and let her

abuse you* then, you'll just have to accept that she will get angry each and

every time she's thwarted. This (to me) highlights in bold headline type just

how severely mentally ill she is. She's not learning, she's not changing, she

thinks she's justified and entitled to try and " get you back " with the next

phone call, or the next, or the one after that.

And I think you're being more compassionate and caring with your nada that I can

ever hope to be with mine. I am in awe of you; many kudos.

-Annie

>

> My nada likes doing my sexual inventory. Her latest thing, that I set a limit

to, was her focusing on how lucky I am not to have become a prostitute when I

was in my 20's. She is convinced it was " luck " .

>

> My nada probably had relations with my father three times. To get pregnant

for me, and then for a miscarriage when I was four and then for my brother, who

was born the winter of my ninth year.

>

> In my nada's book she is a good woman because she didn't have sex before

marriage. She was aghast when she learned I used tampons as a teenager. I guess

an intact hymen is proof of worthiness.

>

> When a person says, " You make me feel mad.... " they are not taking

responsibility for their feelings. My nada won't say it out loud, but could she

be thinking, " Your behavior in your womanhood makes me feel ashamed of myself? "

>

> Nada might be obsessed with my young adult sexuality because my having had sex

when she thought I was supposed to be a virgin, actually turns her

obsessive-compulsive:. On one hand her story " makes her feel bad about

herself " , but because she cannot admit that truth, since she can't allow herself

to look at it, much less take responsibility for it, she acts it out on me. The

part that keeps her hooked, like an addict, is that it makes her feel " better

than " me, and that somehow I have no moral ground to stand on.

>

> I strongly feel that nada feels bad about herself all the time, and that to

avoid facing that she uses me as a take off point, just like a pooping pigeon,

when they land or take off..leaves THEIR crap behind on me. When I get mad at

nada for pooping on me, it confirms for her that (AKA, little Vicki,

problem child) I am to blame for her mess.

>

> I get it now, the best thing I can do for myself is to speak my truth with

love, and realize that anger is not my friend. When I matter of factly tell her,

" I have that taken care of, mom. " Or tell her, when she tells me I am lucky I am

not a prostitute, I could utter a generality that is true for something else I

am thinking. " I think we are both lucky, mom. " (And I can be finishing my

sentence, in my head, with these words, " Yes, we're Lucky that this made up

story is about something thirty years too old. It is time we composted this

one! " )

>

> When I set boundaries on what I will accept from her, I find ways to redirect

the conversation back to her emotions. And I no longer spare her my honesty. I

find kindness and honesty to be a real winning combination.

>

> NOW, my only Catch-22 is this: I can't get out of hanging up the phone on

her. She can't seem to get past being angry at me for ending conversations

BEFORE damage is done and before I get mad (and leave her with me to blame for

my own anger!)

>

> And, when it comes to sex, I find I have to exit the conversation pretty

quickly. I have no interest in talking about this topic with a nada. Wonder if

that is why she keeps bringing it up. So she can blame me when I bow out and

leave her free of " release " ?

>

[Guest guest]

I really think what you're describing by your nada is sexual abuse. Especially

forcing you to be naked in front of her and bathing you, etc. My nada also told

me only SHE could love me because of whatever bullshit reason. Despite me

thinking logically she's actually the only one who CAN'T, and knowing I do have

many who love me for real, it's still inside of me there, that I'm unlovable.

Ugh, it's amazing any of us could be sexual at all after the crap they put us

through. Sorry you had to deal with all that.

Casey

>

> Oh my, sexual intrusiveness by nada?

> Mine was incredibly sexually intrusive.

> When I was 11 or 12, and becoming interested in boys and sex, and writing

> about them in my diary (pure fantasies ), she'd read my diary and then

> scream at me about being dirty and nasty. She'd go through all my things

> constantly to find anything sexually related. The time she usually picked to

> scream and yell at me about my nastiness was when she gave me my bath. Yes,

> she insisted on bathing me up till I was about 14. If I locked the bathroom

> door, she'd either threaten me with dire consequences, or get my father to

> break down the door. I was forced to be naked in front of her at her will,

> and she would tell me how fat and ugly and disgusting I was. Yes, I was

> overweight (when I wasn't anorexic) and physically awkward, and no, I didn't

> have a pretty face - it was true that boys weren't interested in me all

> through my teen years - but, wow, if I had a daughter who was considered by

> society as being not conventionally attractive, I would build her up as best

> as I could, and I would NEVER NEVER NEVER tell her that no one would ever

> love her but me, her mother. I guess if a boy I liked had actually been

> attracted to me, and I would have been dating like the other kids were, that

> would have mitigated the awfulness my mother put me through.

> When I was 19 and moved out of the house, she would call me daily (if I told

> her not to call me every day, she'd go ballistic) and ask me about my sexual

> life, of which I had none, and then tell me I had none because I was, of

> course, ugly, disgusting and dirty and nobody but my mother would ever love

> me or want to touch me. I believed her, and it was horrible, because no one

> but my mother ever HAD touched me, and I would feel unbelievably disgusted

> when she did.

> When I actually started a sexual relationship, it drove her bananas in a

> weird, icky way. Every time I saw her, she'd get this GLEAM in her eye and

> she'd start asking me about my sexual practices. And she'd ask my partner

> too, and even call him and ask him, which freaked him out big time. She'd

> tell other people about what she'd read about when she used to read the

> " sexy parts " of my early teenage diaries - and she'd tell them this in front

> of me - and she'd say stuff to them (them being, for instance, her male

> boss) like, " Rub her back - she LIKES that. " It was disgusting and freaky

> and made me feel so sick inside.

> This continued into my 40s, even though I went NC with her when I was 40.

> She would somehow find out where I was living (I have NO idea how - this was

> before widespread use of the Internet) and call my roommate or my

> significant other and grill them about totally inappropriate things related

> to me. Once she got my fiance on the phone and started asking him about our

> sex life. I happened to be in the room at the time, and his face was turning

> redder than red. He'd been raised as a Catholic, and also respected his

> elders to a high degree, and believed sex lives were highly private. My

> mother kept on and on at him, and he finally blurted out, " We're not having

> sex! " My mother's response was, " Are you gay? " (he wasn't). At this point,

> he realized the conversation was too toxic to continue, so he ended it.

> Sexual intrusiveness - wow - I went through it, all right.

>

>

>