Guest guest Posted November 23, 2010 Report Share Posted November 23, 2010 , I have that problem as well my mother. It finally got to me so much as an adult that I summoned up the strength to tell her not to touch me casually anymore because I irrationally didn't like people touching me. So I made it out that *I'm* crazy as the reason. She still expects a hello and goodbye hug related to a long trip, but before that she'd always find a reason have a hand linger on top of my head or shoulder. It would look loving, but to me it felt like you describe clingy, pulling, lingering. My skin would just crawl and I felt so guilty for having that reaction. My guess is it just reflected what was going on emotionally between us. And was the one who mentioned the sociopath soul stealer kissing guy. > > I can't remember which of you posted the quote recently from the sociopath who said when he kissed someone he tried to suck out their soul, or which thread it was in. But it really struck a chord with me. > > I hate my mother's hugs. I have often said that when she hugs me, it feels like she is trying to suck the life out of me. Some people " give " hugs; she " steals " them, they linger too long, and it just feels desperate and gross. Like a leech, she latches on and won't stop until she's full. > > I can remember others saying similar things about their mothers here a long time ago. > > So, whoever you are that shared that, thanks. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2010 Report Share Posted November 23, 2010 I was reading (an excerpt from a study, I think) RE how mothers with bpd respond to, relate to, and interact with their infants and toddlers, as compared to a control group of mentally healthy mothers. The personality-disordered mothers were described as being " intrusively insensitive " to their infant's emotional cues. It would appear that the personality-disordered mothers could not or would not (a) be alert to their child's signals (b)interpret the signals correctly, or © respond appropriately. Possibly the personality-disordered mothers were either too self-absorbed, too bored, too uncaring/depressed, too controlling and rigid, or too lacking in empathy, i.e.: " I'll tell you when you're hungry! " sort of thing. So, playful bids for attention, distress sounds, hunger sounds, etc., from the babies were ignored or dismissed and instead the bpd moms would, for example, handle the infant and try to get the baby to mirror her and play with her when her baby was clearly sleepy. So the little child ends up learning and responding to her mother's emotional cues and mirroring mommy, instead of the proper way 'round. I believe I actually witnessed " intrusive insensitivity " in person once, on a late-night plane flight. All us passengers were attempting to sleep except (apparently) this one young woman seated in front of me. Her 4-year-old was curled up and snoozing, but mommy was wide awake and every time her 18-month-old started nodding off, mommy would jiggle her toddler awake again, play energetic bouncy or tickling games with her (at full vocal volume, oblivious to the rest of us trying to sleep) then after a few minutes the little one would start to nod off again, and momsie would start jouncing her awake again. After three repetitions of this shrieking and giggling game, I leaned forward, said how cute her children are, and asked her if she would mind switching to some quieter games, like, maybe she could just read softly to her child or something? This woman's eyes flew open as though I'd said something shocking to her, but she did quiet down and let her baby go to sleep. Later at the luggage carousel, I noticed her pointing me out to her rather large husband. I just smiled at them pleasantly. Fortunately nothing further occurred. Its just so sad to think of little ones in the hands of some " intrusively insensitive " jerk who just doesn't give a fig if the baby is distressed, or needs to be fed or needs to sleep or needs attention. Seems to me that " intrusive insensitivity " is just another way of saying, " it's always all about nada. " -Annie > > , I have that problem as well my mother. It finally got to me so much as an adult that I summoned up the strength to tell her not to touch me casually anymore because I irrationally didn't like people touching me. So I made it out that *I'm* crazy as the reason. She still expects a hello and goodbye hug related to a long trip, but before that she'd always find a reason have a hand linger on top of my head or shoulder. It would look loving, but to me it felt like you describe clingy, pulling, lingering. My skin would just crawl and I felt so guilty for having that reaction. My guess is it just reflected what was going on emotionally between us. > > And was the one who mentioned the sociopath soul stealer kissing guy. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2010 Report Share Posted November 23, 2010 this chills my bones Re: the soul-sucker I was reading (an excerpt from a study, I think) RE how mothers with bpd respond to, relate to, and interact with their infants and toddlers, as compared to a control group of mentally healthy mothers. The personality-disordered mothers were described as being " intrusively insensitive " to their infant's emotional cues. It would appear that the personality-disordered mothers could not or would not (a) be alert to their child's signals (b)interpret the signals correctly, or © respond appropriately. Possibly the personality-disordered mothers were either too self-absorbed, too bored, too uncaring/depressed, too controlling and rigid, or too lacking in empathy, i.e.: " I'll tell you when you're hungry! " sort of thing. So, playful bids for attention, distress sounds, hunger sounds, etc., from the babies were ignored or dismissed and instead the bpd moms would, for example, handle the infant and try to get the baby to mirror her and play with her when her baby was clearly sleepy. So the little child ends up learning and responding to her mother's emotional cues and mirroring mommy, instead of the proper way 'round. I believe I actually witnessed " intrusive insensitivity " in person once, on a late-night plane flight. All us passengers were attempting to sleep except (apparently) this one young woman seated in front of me. Her 4-year-old was curled up and snoozing, but mommy was wide awake and every time her 18-month-old started nodding off, mommy would jiggle her toddler awake again, play energetic bouncy or tickling games with her (at full vocal volume, oblivious to the rest of us trying to sleep) then after a few minutes the little one would start to nod off again, and momsie would start jouncing her awake again. After three repetitions of this shrieking and giggling game, I leaned forward, said how cute her children are, and asked her if she would mind switching to some quieter games, like, maybe she could just read softly to her child or something? This woman's eyes flew open as though I'd said something shocking to her, but she did quiet down and let her baby go to sleep. Later at the luggage carousel, I noticed her pointing me out to her rather large husband. I just smiled at them pleasantly. Fortunately nothing further occurred. Its just so sad to think of little ones in the hands of some " intrusively insensitive " jerk who just doesn't give a fig if the baby is distressed, or needs to be fed or needs to sleep or needs attention. Seems to me that " intrusive insensitivity " is just another way of saying, " it's always all about nada. " -Annie > > , I have that problem as well my mother. It finally got to me so much as an adult that I summoned up the strength to tell her not to touch me casually anymore because I irrationally didn't like people touching me. So I made it out that *I'm* crazy as the reason. She still expects a hello and goodbye hug related to a long trip, but before that she'd always find a reason have a hand linger on top of my head or shoulder. It would look loving, but to me it felt like you describe clingy, pulling, lingering. My skin would just crawl and I felt so guilty for having that reaction. My guess is it just reflected what was going on emotionally between us. > > And was the one who mentioned the sociopath soul stealer kissing guy. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2010 Report Share Posted November 23, 2010 Ive seen this a lot in my own family - ranging from minor things to quite major ones. One sister would put her baby for a nap every afternoon by wrapping him in a blanket. Didnt matter if it was over 40 degrees in summer, that was " the way to do it " . He would wake drenched in sweat and very unhappy. She didnt seem to notice, and any suggestion that it was too hot for him was taken offence to. Another sister would stop feeding her child if there was something interesting on the TV. She would be holding the food just out of the toddlers reach, and zone out at the TV. The child learned quickly that the only way to get fed was to scream her knickers off as soon as her mother looked at the tv. Even that didnt work a lot of the time, she would just ignore her - it didnt register that the kid was upset or why. It was disturbing to watch a child who cant talk yet having to go to such lengths to keep her mother feeding her each mealtime. I shudder to think what nada was like, having seen my sister behaviour - they arent as bad as her. Very scary. > > I was reading (an excerpt from a study, I think) RE how mothers with bpd respond to, relate to, and interact with their infants and toddlers, as compared to a control group of mentally healthy mothers. > > The personality-disordered mothers were described as being " intrusively insensitive " to their infant's emotional cues. > > It would appear that the personality-disordered mothers could not or would not (a) be alert to their child's signals (b)interpret the signals correctly, or © respond appropriately. Possibly the personality-disordered mothers were either too self-absorbed, too bored, too uncaring/depressed, too controlling and rigid, or too lacking in empathy, i.e.: " I'll tell you when you're hungry! " sort of thing. So, playful bids for attention, distress sounds, hunger sounds, etc., from the babies were ignored or dismissed and instead the bpd moms would, for example, handle the infant and try to get the baby to mirror her and play with her when her baby was clearly sleepy. > > So the little child ends up learning and responding to her mother's emotional cues and mirroring mommy, instead of the proper way 'round. > > I believe I actually witnessed " intrusive insensitivity " in person once, on a late-night plane flight. All us passengers were attempting to sleep except (apparently) this one young woman seated in front of me. Her 4-year-old was curled up and snoozing, but mommy was wide awake and every time her 18-month-old started nodding off, mommy would jiggle her toddler awake again, play energetic bouncy or tickling games with her (at full vocal volume, oblivious to the rest of us trying to sleep) then after a few minutes the little one would start to nod off again, and momsie would start jouncing her awake again. After three repetitions of this shrieking and giggling game, I leaned forward, said how cute her children are, and asked her if she would mind switching to some quieter games, like, maybe she could just read softly to her child or something? > > This woman's eyes flew open as though I'd said something shocking to her, but she did quiet down and let her baby go to sleep. > > Later at the luggage carousel, I noticed her pointing me out to her rather large husband. I just smiled at them pleasantly. Fortunately nothing further occurred. > > Its just so sad to think of little ones in the hands of some " intrusively insensitive " jerk who just doesn't give a fig if the baby is distressed, or needs to be fed or needs to sleep or needs attention. Seems to me that " intrusive insensitivity " is just another way of saying, " it's always all about nada. " > > -Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2010 Report Share Posted November 23, 2010 Very scary indeed Annie. Do you remember where you saw this? It sounds vaguely familiar to me - some book I read had a study where they observed the mothers interacting with their infants through a one-way mirror and the scientific observers got very upset themselves - just by seeing this. I feel it in my bones that my nada was this way with me. She said I never wanted to be held as an infant and there's literally only one picture of me that I've ever seen with *anyone* holding me and it was my grandfather. I can imagine if she did this " intrusive insensitive " interaction from the beginning that may be why I got that way. It sure makes me realize why healing from all this and trying to find a healthy and safe way to deal with her is so hard. Stealing someone else's line, but May we all HEAL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2010 Report Share Posted November 23, 2010 I have the same problem. I can not stand her touching me. It makes me sick and I felt deep disgust.. I even have problem if she is too close to me ( 1 meter) YUCK. I was thinking why but I never found out why. It feels like she would like to go into me with that touch. I never allowed her to touch me. I said that to her if she tried and she move back. If she would not I would probably start screaming hysterically ...:-)) > > I can't remember which of you posted the quote recently from the sociopath who said when he kissed someone he tried to suck out their soul, or which thread it was in. But it really struck a chord with me. > > I hate my mother's hugs. I have often said that when she hugs me, it feels like she is trying to suck the life out of me. Some people " give " hugs; she " steals " them, they linger too long, and it just feels desperate and gross. Like a leech, she latches on and won't stop until she's full. > > I can remember others saying similar things about their mothers here a long time ago. > > So, whoever you are that shared that, thanks. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2010 Report Share Posted November 24, 2010 I've got just dozens of bookmarks now RE bpd studies and related articles and materials (this may be under " attachment disorders " ) so I'll look but it may take a while. Yes, it is scary. -Annie > > Very scary indeed Annie. Do you remember where you saw this? It sounds vaguely familiar to me - some book I read had a study where they observed the mothers interacting with their infants through a one-way mirror and the scientific observers got very upset themselves - just by seeing this. I feel it in my bones that my nada was this way with me. She said I never wanted to be held as an infant and there's literally only one picture of me that I've ever seen with *anyone* holding me and it was my grandfather. I can imagine if she did this " intrusive insensitive " interaction from the beginning that may be why I got that way. > > It sure makes me realize why healing from all this and trying to find a healthy and safe way to deal with her is so hard. > > Stealing someone else's line, but > > May we all HEAL! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2010 Report Share Posted November 24, 2010 Wow! this is an interesting subject to say the least! I hadn't thought about or studied anything about this before, but it sure makes sense. My nada always said " you were such a quiet baby " ...... " never cried " , blah blah blah......I think it was baby depression. Plus I was so sickly.....which brings up another point.......I was a sickly baby from the get go.....don't sick babies cry? I have a brother and sister that cried, were not sickly...hummmmm. Anyway, I too, can't stand for nada to touch me. She, as a rule, does not want to be touched by anyone, ever, but she always has either tried to pick a speck off you, or pointed out a mole or a freckle on you, or pointed out she doesn't like your outfit.........Seems to me she has always tried to get the attention off of her and in doing so, points out your (or whoever's) flaws, openly, in front of anyone and everyone. Interesting subject. Wish I had nothing to offer, but, unfortunately, I think we can all relate to something here. Laurie In a message dated 11/24/2010 12:08:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, anuria-67854@... writes: I was reading (an excerpt from a study, I think) RE how mothers with bpd respond to, relate to, and interact with their infants and toddlers, as compared to a control group of mentally healthy mothers. The personality-disordered mothers were described as being " intrusively insensitive " to their infant's emotional cues. It would appear that the personality-disordered mothers could not or would not (a) be alert to their child's signals (b)interpret the signals correctly, or © respond appropriately. Possibly the personality-disordered mothers were either too self-absorbed, too bored, too uncaring/depressed, too controlling and rigid, or too lacking in empathy, i.e.: " I'll tell you when you're hungry! " sort of thing. So, playful bids for attention, distress sounds, hunger sounds, etc., from the babies were ignored or dismissed and instead the bpd moms would, for example, handle the infant and try to get the baby to mirror her and play with her when her baby was clearly sleepy. So the little child ends up learning and responding to her mother's emotional cues and mirroring mommy, instead of the proper way 'round. I believe I actually witnessed " intrusive insensitivity " in person once, on a late-night plane flight. All us passengers were attempting to sleep except (apparently) this one young woman seated in front of me. Her 4-year-old was curled up and snoozing, but mommy was wide awake and every time her 18-month-old started nodding off, mommy would jiggle her toddler awake again, play energetic bouncy or tickling games with her (at full vocal volume, oblivious to the rest of us trying to sleep) then after a few minutes the little one would start to nod off again, and momsie would start jouncing her awake again. After three repetitions of this shrieking and giggling game, I leaned forward, said how cute her children are, and asked her if she would mind switching to some quieter games, like, maybe she could just read softly to her child or something? This woman's eyes flew open as though I'd said something shocking to her, but she did quiet down and let her baby go to sleep. Later at the luggage carousel, I noticed her pointing me out to her rather large husband. I just smiled at them pleasantly. Fortunately nothing further occurred. Its just so sad to think of little ones in the hands of some " intrusively insensitive " jerk who just doesn't give a fig if the baby is distressed, or needs to be fed or needs to sleep or needs attention. Seems to me that " intrusive insensitivity " is just another way of saying, " it's always all about nada. " -Annie > > , I have that problem as well my mother. It finally got to me so much as an adult that I summoned up the strength to tell her not to touch me casually anymore because I irrationally didn't like people touching me. So I made it out that *I'm* crazy as the reason. She still expects a hello and goodbye hug related to a long trip, but before that she'd always find a reason have a hand linger on top of my head or shoulder. It would look loving, but to me it felt like you describe clingy, pulling, lingering. My skin would just crawl and I felt so guilty for having that reaction. My guess is it just reflected what was going on emotionally between us. > > And was the one who mentioned the sociopath soul stealer kissing guy. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2010 Report Share Posted November 24, 2010 Wow! this is an interesting subject to say the least! I hadn't thought about or studied anything about this before, but it sure makes sense. My nada always said " you were such a quiet baby " ...... " never cried " , blah blah blah......I think it was baby depression. Plus I was so sickly.....which brings up another point.......I was a sickly baby from the get go.....don't sick babies cry? I have a brother and sister that cried, were not sickly...hummmmm. Anyway, I too, can't stand for nada to touch me. She, as a rule, does not want to be touched by anyone, ever, but she always has either tried to pick a speck off you, or pointed out a mole or a freckle on you, or pointed out she doesn't like your outfit.........Seems to me she has always tried to get the attention off of her and in doing so, points out your (or whoever's) flaws, openly, in front of anyone and everyone. Interesting subject. Wish I had nothing to offer, but, unfortunately, I think we can all relate to something here. Laurie In a message dated 11/24/2010 12:08:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, anuria-67854@... writes: I was reading (an excerpt from a study, I think) RE how mothers with bpd respond to, relate to, and interact with their infants and toddlers, as compared to a control group of mentally healthy mothers. The personality-disordered mothers were described as being " intrusively insensitive " to their infant's emotional cues. It would appear that the personality-disordered mothers could not or would not (a) be alert to their child's signals (b)interpret the signals correctly, or © respond appropriately. Possibly the personality-disordered mothers were either too self-absorbed, too bored, too uncaring/depressed, too controlling and rigid, or too lacking in empathy, i.e.: " I'll tell you when you're hungry! " sort of thing. So, playful bids for attention, distress sounds, hunger sounds, etc., from the babies were ignored or dismissed and instead the bpd moms would, for example, handle the infant and try to get the baby to mirror her and play with her when her baby was clearly sleepy. So the little child ends up learning and responding to her mother's emotional cues and mirroring mommy, instead of the proper way 'round. I believe I actually witnessed " intrusive insensitivity " in person once, on a late-night plane flight. All us passengers were attempting to sleep except (apparently) this one young woman seated in front of me. Her 4-year-old was curled up and snoozing, but mommy was wide awake and every time her 18-month-old started nodding off, mommy would jiggle her toddler awake again, play energetic bouncy or tickling games with her (at full vocal volume, oblivious to the rest of us trying to sleep) then after a few minutes the little one would start to nod off again, and momsie would start jouncing her awake again. After three repetitions of this shrieking and giggling game, I leaned forward, said how cute her children are, and asked her if she would mind switching to some quieter games, like, maybe she could just read softly to her child or something? This woman's eyes flew open as though I'd said something shocking to her, but she did quiet down and let her baby go to sleep. Later at the luggage carousel, I noticed her pointing me out to her rather large husband. I just smiled at them pleasantly. Fortunately nothing further occurred. Its just so sad to think of little ones in the hands of some " intrusively insensitive " jerk who just doesn't give a fig if the baby is distressed, or needs to be fed or needs to sleep or needs attention. Seems to me that " intrusive insensitivity " is just another way of saying, " it's always all about nada. " -Annie > > , I have that problem as well my mother. It finally got to me so much as an adult that I summoned up the strength to tell her not to touch me casually anymore because I irrationally didn't like people touching me. So I made it out that *I'm* crazy as the reason. She still expects a hello and goodbye hug related to a long trip, but before that she'd always find a reason have a hand linger on top of my head or shoulder. It would look loving, but to me it felt like you describe clingy, pulling, lingering. My skin would just crawl and I felt so guilty for having that reaction. My guess is it just reflected what was going on emotionally between us. > > And was the one who mentioned the sociopath soul stealer kissing guy. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2010 Report Share Posted November 24, 2010 My nada said the exact same thing - " you kids never cried " . It certainly seemed odd to me. I did a google search for " intrusive mothers and infants " and there are many studies that might explain why - one called " Intrusive and Withdrawn Behaviours of Mothers Interacting with their Infants and Boyfriends " . REALLY INTERESTING!!!! BPD mothers are considered to be " intrusive " . Here are a few excepts from it (Ive deleted all the referencing to make it easier to read): During face-to-face, mother±infant interactions, withdrawn mothers demonstrate affectively restricted behaviours. They appear expressionless and verbalize in a flat tone of voice and spend less time touching their infants and more time turning away. In contrast, intrusive mothers demonstrate greater affectivity and overstimulation, which may interfere with their infants' goal-directed activities. Intrusive mothers exhibit anger, hostility, high levels of irritability, and even overt physical intrusiveness. Mothers were classified as intrusive if they demonstrated physical contacts such as: rough tickling, poking, pulling, shaking, looming, and using brisk movements, during at least 50%of the interaction. Mothers could also be classified as intrusive if they were physically intrusive during somewhat smaller proportions of time but demonstrated loud, noncontingent speech and exaggerated, fake, facial expressions. In contrast, mothers who had demonstrated intrusiveness with their infants were verbally sharp and interfering with their boyfriends' efforts to solve a puzzle. Their controlling behaviour emerged over the project of ``working together'' on the puzzle. A few never released the puzzle, monopolizing it for 100% of the time and turning the interaction into a ``tug-of-war'', suggesting an inability to play appropriately and impeding goaldirected activities with boyfriends as with infants. Yet, mothers were not directly aggressive toward their boyfriends. As Weissman and Paykel (1974) observed, mothers targeted infants more than husbands, perhaps because infants are more vulnerable. A google book called Social and Emotional Devlopment in Infancy and Early Childhood (Pg 434) says: As a striking demonstration of the sensitivity of the infant to these differernt maternal ways of being with their infants, infants of intrusive mothers reacted one way, wheras infants of withdrawn mothers reacted another way. Infants of intrusive mothers spent most of their time looking away from the mother, and seldom looked at objects. They infrequently cried. Infants of withdrawn mothers were more likely to protest and be distressed than the infants of intrusive mothers... The infants of hostile intrusive mothers must cope with a different regulatory problem (than those with a withdrawn mother)... These infants initially experience anger, turn away from the mother, push her away, or screen her out. However, unlike the failure experience of the infnats of withdrawn mothers, these coping behaviours are occasionally successful in fending off the mother, these infants eventually internalise an angry and protective style of coping which is deployed defensively in anticipation of the mothers intrusiveness. I think this may explain why so many BPD mothers say that their baby " rejects " them, or the flip-side, that they were perfect for the sole reason that they didnt cry much. I feel this may explain a lot for me! And the part about " fake exaggerated facila expressions " , oh lord, thats a CHARACTERISTIC of this kind of mothering!!! I never knew that, and it makes so much sense. > > Wow! this is an interesting subject to say the least! I hadn't thought > about or studied anything about this before, but it sure makes sense. > > My nada always said " you were such a quiet baby " ...... " never cried " , blah > blah blah......I think it was baby depression. Plus I was so > sickly.....which brings up another point.......I was a sickly baby from the get > go.....don't sick babies cry? I have a brother and sister that cried, > were not sickly...hummmmm. Anyway, I too, can't stand for nada to touch me. > She, as a rule, does not want to be touched by anyone, ever, but she > always has either tried to pick a speck off you, or pointed out a mole or a > freckle on you, or pointed out she doesn't like your outfit.........Seems to me > she has always tried to get the attention off of her and in doing so, > points out your (or whoever's) flaws, openly, in front of anyone and everyone. > > Interesting subject. Wish I had nothing to offer, but, unfortunately, I > think we can all relate to something here. > > Laurie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2010 Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 Wow, wonderful, facinating thread. Yes my nada = intrusive And ditto, nada touch = soul sucking yuck feeling of Ghostbuster's ectoplasm splattering across your face. Happy Thanksgiving! On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 12:21 AM, crazy150345 wrote: > > > My nada said the exact same thing - " you kids never cried " . It certainly > seemed odd to me. > > I did a google search for " intrusive mothers and infants " and there are > many studies that might explain why - one called " Intrusive and Withdrawn > Behaviours of Mothers Interacting with their Infants and Boyfriends " . REALLY > INTERESTING!!!! BPD mothers are considered to be " intrusive " . > > Here are a few excepts from it (Ive deleted all the referencing to make it > easier to read): > > During face-to-face, mother±infant interactions, > withdrawn mothers demonstrate affectively restricted > behaviours. They appear expressionless and verbalize in a > flat tone of voice and spend less time touching their > infants and more time turning away. In contrast, intrusive mothers > demonstrate greater affectivity and overstimulation, which may interfere > with their infants' > goal-directed activities. Intrusive mothers exhibit > anger, hostility, high levels of irritability, and even overt > physical intrusiveness. > > Mothers were classified as intrusive if they > demonstrated physical contacts such as: rough tickling, poking, > pulling, shaking, looming, and using brisk movements, during > at least 50%of the interaction. Mothers could also be classified > as intrusive if they were physically intrusive during somewhat > smaller proportions of time but demonstrated loud, noncontingent > speech and exaggerated, fake, facial expressions. > > In contrast, mothers who had demonstrated intrusiveness > with their infants were verbally sharp and > interfering with their boyfriends' efforts to solve a puzzle. > Their controlling behaviour emerged over the project of > ``working together'' on the puzzle. A few never released > the puzzle, monopolizing it for 100% of the time and > turning the interaction into a ``tug-of-war'', suggesting > an inability to play appropriately and impeding goaldirected > activities with boyfriends as with infants. Yet, mothers were not directly > aggressive toward their boyfriends. As Weissman and Paykel (1974) observed, > mothers targeted infants more than husbands, > perhaps because infants are more vulnerable. > > A google book called Social and Emotional Devlopment in Infancy and Early > Childhood (Pg 434) says: > > As a striking demonstration of the sensitivity of the infant to these > differernt maternal ways of being with their infants, infants of intrusive > mothers reacted one way, wheras infants of withdrawn mothers reacted another > way. > Infants of intrusive mothers spent most of their time looking away from the > mother, and seldom looked at objects. They infrequently cried. Infants of > withdrawn mothers were more likely to protest and be distressed than the > infants of intrusive mothers... > > The infants of hostile intrusive mothers must cope with a different > regulatory problem (than those with a withdrawn mother)... These infants > initially experience anger, turn away from the mother, push her away, or > screen her out. However, unlike the failure experience of the infnats of > withdrawn mothers, these coping behaviours are occasionally successful in > fending off the mother, these infants eventually internalise an angry and > protective style of coping which is deployed defensively in anticipation of > the mothers intrusiveness. > > I think this may explain why so many BPD mothers say that their baby > " rejects " them, or the flip-side, that they were perfect for the sole reason > that they didnt cry much. I feel this may explain a lot for me! And the part > about " fake exaggerated facila expressions " , oh lord, thats a CHARACTERISTIC > of this kind of mothering!!! I never knew that, and it makes so much sense. > > > > > > > Wow! this is an interesting subject to say the least! I hadn't thought > > about or studied anything about this before, but it sure makes sense. > > > > My nada always said " you were such a quiet baby " ...... " never cried " , blah > > > blah blah......I think it was baby depression. Plus I was so > > sickly.....which brings up another point.......I was a sickly baby from > the get > > go.....don't sick babies cry? I have a brother and sister that cried, > > were not sickly...hummmmm. Anyway, I too, can't stand for nada to touch > me. > > She, as a rule, does not want to be touched by anyone, ever, but she > > always has either tried to pick a speck off you, or pointed out a mole or > a > > freckle on you, or pointed out she doesn't like your outfit.........Seems > to me > > she has always tried to get the attention off of her and in doing so, > > points out your (or whoever's) flaws, openly, in front of anyone and > everyone. > > > > Interesting subject. Wish I had nothing to offer, but, unfortunately, I > > think we can all relate to something here. > > > > Laurie > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2010 Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 This topic is HUGE. It's our beginning. God help us. Laurie In a message dated 11/24/2010 1:06:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, crazy150345@... writes: Ive seen this a lot in my own family - ranging from minor things to quite major ones. One sister would put her baby for a nap every afternoon by wrapping him in a blanket. Didnt matter if it was over 40 degrees in summer, that was " the way to do it " . He would wake drenched in sweat and very unhappy. She didnt seem to notice, and any suggestion that it was too hot for him was taken offence to. Another sister would stop feeding her child if there was something interesting on the TV. She would be holding the food just out of the toddlers reach, and zone out at the TV. The child learned quickly that the only way to get fed was to scream her knickers off as soon as her mother looked at the tv. Even that didnt work a lot of the time, she would just ignore her - it didnt register that the kid was upset or why. It was disturbing to watch a child who cant talk yet having to go to such lengths to keep her mother feeding her each mealtime. I shudder to think what nada was like, having seen my sister behaviour - they arent as bad as her. Very scary. > > I was reading (an excerpt from a study, I think) RE how mothers with bpd respond to, relate to, and interact with their infants and toddlers, as compared to a control group of mentally healthy mothers. > > The personality-disordered mothers were described as being " intrusively insensitive " to their infant's emotional cues. > > It would appear that the personality-disordered mothers could not or would not (a) be alert to their child's signals (b)interpret the signals correctly, or © respond appropriately. Possibly the personality-disordered mothers were either too self-absorbed, too bored, too uncaring/depressed, too controlling and rigid, or too lacking in empathy, i.e.: " I'll tell you when you're hungry! " sort of thing. So, playful bids for attention, distress sounds, hunger sounds, etc., from the babies were ignored or dismissed and instead the bpd moms would, for example, handle the infant and try to get the baby to mirror her and play with her when her baby was clearly sleepy. > > So the little child ends up learning and responding to her mother's emotional cues and mirroring mommy, instead of the proper way 'round. > > I believe I actually witnessed " intrusive insensitivity " in person once, on a late-night plane flight. All us passengers were attempting to sleep except (apparently) this one young woman seated in front of me. Her 4-year-old was curled up and snoozing, but mommy was wide awake and every time her 18-month-old started nodding off, mommy would jiggle her toddler awake again, play energetic bouncy or tickling games with her (at full vocal volume, oblivious to the rest of us trying to sleep) then after a few minutes the little one would start to nod off again, and momsie would start jouncing her awake again. After three repetitions of this shrieking and giggling game, I leaned forward, said how cute her children are, and asked her if she would mind switching to some quieter games, like, maybe she could just read softly to her child or something? > > This woman's eyes flew open as though I'd said something shocking to her, but she did quiet down and let her baby go to sleep. > > Later at the luggage carousel, I noticed her pointing me out to her rather large husband. I just smiled at them pleasantly. Fortunately nothing further occurred. > > Its just so sad to think of little ones in the hands of some " intrusively insensitive " jerk who just doesn't give a fig if the baby is distressed, or needs to be fed or needs to sleep or needs attention. Seems to me that " intrusive insensitivity " is just another way of saying, " it's always all about nada. " > > -Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2010 Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 This topic is HUGE. It's our beginning. God help us. Laurie In a message dated 11/24/2010 1:06:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, crazy150345@... writes: Ive seen this a lot in my own family - ranging from minor things to quite major ones. One sister would put her baby for a nap every afternoon by wrapping him in a blanket. Didnt matter if it was over 40 degrees in summer, that was " the way to do it " . He would wake drenched in sweat and very unhappy. She didnt seem to notice, and any suggestion that it was too hot for him was taken offence to. Another sister would stop feeding her child if there was something interesting on the TV. She would be holding the food just out of the toddlers reach, and zone out at the TV. The child learned quickly that the only way to get fed was to scream her knickers off as soon as her mother looked at the tv. Even that didnt work a lot of the time, she would just ignore her - it didnt register that the kid was upset or why. It was disturbing to watch a child who cant talk yet having to go to such lengths to keep her mother feeding her each mealtime. I shudder to think what nada was like, having seen my sister behaviour - they arent as bad as her. Very scary. > > I was reading (an excerpt from a study, I think) RE how mothers with bpd respond to, relate to, and interact with their infants and toddlers, as compared to a control group of mentally healthy mothers. > > The personality-disordered mothers were described as being " intrusively insensitive " to their infant's emotional cues. > > It would appear that the personality-disordered mothers could not or would not (a) be alert to their child's signals (b)interpret the signals correctly, or © respond appropriately. Possibly the personality-disordered mothers were either too self-absorbed, too bored, too uncaring/depressed, too controlling and rigid, or too lacking in empathy, i.e.: " I'll tell you when you're hungry! " sort of thing. So, playful bids for attention, distress sounds, hunger sounds, etc., from the babies were ignored or dismissed and instead the bpd moms would, for example, handle the infant and try to get the baby to mirror her and play with her when her baby was clearly sleepy. > > So the little child ends up learning and responding to her mother's emotional cues and mirroring mommy, instead of the proper way 'round. > > I believe I actually witnessed " intrusive insensitivity " in person once, on a late-night plane flight. All us passengers were attempting to sleep except (apparently) this one young woman seated in front of me. Her 4-year-old was curled up and snoozing, but mommy was wide awake and every time her 18-month-old started nodding off, mommy would jiggle her toddler awake again, play energetic bouncy or tickling games with her (at full vocal volume, oblivious to the rest of us trying to sleep) then after a few minutes the little one would start to nod off again, and momsie would start jouncing her awake again. After three repetitions of this shrieking and giggling game, I leaned forward, said how cute her children are, and asked her if she would mind switching to some quieter games, like, maybe she could just read softly to her child or something? > > This woman's eyes flew open as though I'd said something shocking to her, but she did quiet down and let her baby go to sleep. > > Later at the luggage carousel, I noticed her pointing me out to her rather large husband. I just smiled at them pleasantly. Fortunately nothing further occurred. > > Its just so sad to think of little ones in the hands of some " intrusively insensitive " jerk who just doesn't give a fig if the baby is distressed, or needs to be fed or needs to sleep or needs attention. Seems to me that " intrusive insensitivity " is just another way of saying, " it's always all about nada. " > > -Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2010 Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 I didn't post that comment but I also refer to my nada as a soul sucker. I feel guilty about that because it seems so mean but it describes the feeling so well. Sad isn't it? > > I can't remember which of you posted the quote recently from the sociopath who said when he kissed someone he tried to suck out their soul, or which thread it was in. But it really struck a chord with me. > > I hate my mother's hugs. I have often said that when she hugs me, it feels like she is trying to suck the life out of me. Some people " give " hugs; she " steals " them, they linger too long, and it just feels desperate and gross. Like a leech, she latches on and won't stop until she's full. > > I can remember others saying similar things about their mothers here a long time ago. > > So, whoever you are that shared that, thanks. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2010 Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 Do you ever wonder how our own nadas treated us when we were infants? It's probably best that we don't remember. I keep asking myself this question: when I was very young, around 4 years old, and my nada would tell me to sit on the couch and don't move until she got back from shopping, what did she do to me to instill such fear that I would obey her every time? A normal 4 year old would certainly get off the couch and get into mischief. I remember being afraid to move. What the he** happened in those first few years? > > > > I was reading (an excerpt from a study, I think) RE how mothers with bpd respond to, relate to, and interact with their infants and toddlers, as compared to a control group of mentally healthy mothers. > > > > The personality-disordered mothers were described as being " intrusively insensitive " to their infant's emotional cues. > > > > It would appear that the personality-disordered mothers could not or would not (a) be alert to their child's signals (b)interpret the signals correctly, or © respond appropriately. Possibly the personality-disordered mothers were either too self-absorbed, too bored, too uncaring/depressed, too controlling and rigid, or too lacking in empathy, i.e.: " I'll tell you when you're hungry! " sort of thing. So, playful bids for attention, distress sounds, hunger sounds, etc., from the babies were ignored or dismissed and instead the bpd moms would, for example, handle the infant and try to get the baby to mirror her and play with her when her baby was clearly sleepy. > > > > So the little child ends up learning and responding to her mother's emotional cues and mirroring mommy, instead of the proper way 'round. > > > > I believe I actually witnessed " intrusive insensitivity " in person once, on a late-night plane flight. All us passengers were attempting to sleep except (apparently) this one young woman seated in front of me. Her 4-year-old was curled up and snoozing, but mommy was wide awake and every time her 18-month-old started nodding off, mommy would jiggle her toddler awake again, play energetic bouncy or tickling games with her (at full vocal volume, oblivious to the rest of us trying to sleep) then after a few minutes the little one would start to nod off again, and momsie would start jouncing her awake again. After three repetitions of this shrieking and giggling game, I leaned forward, said how cute her children are, and asked her if she would mind switching to some quieter games, like, maybe she could just read softly to her child or something? > > > > This woman's eyes flew open as though I'd said something shocking to her, but she did quiet down and let her baby go to sleep. > > > > Later at the luggage carousel, I noticed her pointing me out to her rather large husband. I just smiled at them pleasantly. Fortunately nothing further occurred. > > > > Its just so sad to think of little ones in the hands of some " intrusively insensitive " jerk who just doesn't give a fig if the baby is distressed, or needs to be fed or needs to sleep or needs attention. Seems to me that " intrusive insensitivity " is just another way of saying, " it's always all about nada. " > > > > -Annie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2010 Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 Are there any relatives or neighbors who were around your nada and you enough to have seen her interacting with you as an infant and toddler over time, and are they available to ask? And if you asked, do you think they would tell you the truth if they witnessed abuse or would they protect your nada? Also, do you think they ever saw your nada being her true self? My nada didn't live close enough to her foo for them to drop over easily, and she and her sisters didn't just " hang out " together at all, really. Neighbors didn't " drop in " at our house unexpectedly, either. It wasn't something my nada did herself and I don't think she encouraged it with her friends and neighbors. Everything with nada had to be planned in advance; she has never liked surprises. There were regular Sunday dinners with granny and grandpa (nada's foo), like, every other Sunday but nada was on her best behavior around everyone but her older sister, for the most part. So, even if nada became angry at me at granny's house, she'd save up acting on it for when we were driving back home or once we got home. She'd never unleash her full tantrum-rage at me around dad, either. The abuse Sister and I received was fairly covert. Dad saw some of it, such as the nearly constant stream of criticism, but the worst of nada's terrifying rage-tantrums and physical batterings happened when we were alone with her. -Annie > > > > > > I was reading (an excerpt from a study, I think) RE how mothers with bpd respond to, relate to, and interact with their infants and toddlers, as compared to a control group of mentally healthy mothers. > > > > > > The personality-disordered mothers were described as being " intrusively insensitive " to their infant's emotional cues. > > > > > > It would appear that the personality-disordered mothers could not or would not (a) be alert to their child's signals (b)interpret the signals correctly, or © respond appropriately. Possibly the personality-disordered mothers were either too self-absorbed, too bored, too uncaring/depressed, too controlling and rigid, or too lacking in empathy, i.e.: " I'll tell you when you're hungry! " sort of thing. So, playful bids for attention, distress sounds, hunger sounds, etc., from the babies were ignored or dismissed and instead the bpd moms would, for example, handle the infant and try to get the baby to mirror her and play with her when her baby was clearly sleepy. > > > > > > So the little child ends up learning and responding to her mother's emotional cues and mirroring mommy, instead of the proper way 'round. > > > > > > I believe I actually witnessed " intrusive insensitivity " in person once, on a late-night plane flight. All us passengers were attempting to sleep except (apparently) this one young woman seated in front of me. Her 4-year-old was curled up and snoozing, but mommy was wide awake and every time her 18-month-old started nodding off, mommy would jiggle her toddler awake again, play energetic bouncy or tickling games with her (at full vocal volume, oblivious to the rest of us trying to sleep) then after a few minutes the little one would start to nod off again, and momsie would start jouncing her awake again. After three repetitions of this shrieking and giggling game, I leaned forward, said how cute her children are, and asked her if she would mind switching to some quieter games, like, maybe she could just read softly to her child or something? > > > > > > This woman's eyes flew open as though I'd said something shocking to her, but she did quiet down and let her baby go to sleep. > > > > > > Later at the luggage carousel, I noticed her pointing me out to her rather large husband. I just smiled at them pleasantly. Fortunately nothing further occurred. > > > > > > Its just so sad to think of little ones in the hands of some " intrusively insensitive " jerk who just doesn't give a fig if the baby is distressed, or needs to be fed or needs to sleep or needs attention. Seems to me that " intrusive insensitivity " is just another way of saying, " it's always all about nada. " > > > > > > -Annie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2010 Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 Are there any relatives or neighbors who were around your nada and you enough to have seen her interacting with you as an infant and toddler over time, and are they available to ask? And if you asked, do you think they would tell you the truth if they witnessed abuse or would they protect your nada? Also, do you think they ever saw your nada being her true self? My nada didn't live close enough to her foo for them to drop over easily, and she and her sisters didn't just " hang out " together at all, really. Neighbors didn't " drop in " at our house unexpectedly, either. It wasn't something my nada did herself and I don't think she encouraged it with her friends and neighbors. Everything with nada had to be planned in advance; she has never liked surprises. There were regular Sunday dinners with granny and grandpa (nada's foo), like, every other Sunday but nada was on her best behavior around everyone but her older sister, for the most part. So, even if nada became angry at me at granny's house, she'd save up acting on it for when we were driving back home or once we got home. She'd never unleash her full tantrum-rage at me around dad, either. The abuse Sister and I received was fairly covert. Dad saw some of it, such as the nearly constant stream of criticism, but the worst of nada's terrifying rage-tantrums and physical batterings happened when we were alone with her. -Annie > > > > > > I was reading (an excerpt from a study, I think) RE how mothers with bpd respond to, relate to, and interact with their infants and toddlers, as compared to a control group of mentally healthy mothers. > > > > > > The personality-disordered mothers were described as being " intrusively insensitive " to their infant's emotional cues. > > > > > > It would appear that the personality-disordered mothers could not or would not (a) be alert to their child's signals (b)interpret the signals correctly, or © respond appropriately. Possibly the personality-disordered mothers were either too self-absorbed, too bored, too uncaring/depressed, too controlling and rigid, or too lacking in empathy, i.e.: " I'll tell you when you're hungry! " sort of thing. So, playful bids for attention, distress sounds, hunger sounds, etc., from the babies were ignored or dismissed and instead the bpd moms would, for example, handle the infant and try to get the baby to mirror her and play with her when her baby was clearly sleepy. > > > > > > So the little child ends up learning and responding to her mother's emotional cues and mirroring mommy, instead of the proper way 'round. > > > > > > I believe I actually witnessed " intrusive insensitivity " in person once, on a late-night plane flight. All us passengers were attempting to sleep except (apparently) this one young woman seated in front of me. Her 4-year-old was curled up and snoozing, but mommy was wide awake and every time her 18-month-old started nodding off, mommy would jiggle her toddler awake again, play energetic bouncy or tickling games with her (at full vocal volume, oblivious to the rest of us trying to sleep) then after a few minutes the little one would start to nod off again, and momsie would start jouncing her awake again. After three repetitions of this shrieking and giggling game, I leaned forward, said how cute her children are, and asked her if she would mind switching to some quieter games, like, maybe she could just read softly to her child or something? > > > > > > This woman's eyes flew open as though I'd said something shocking to her, but she did quiet down and let her baby go to sleep. > > > > > > Later at the luggage carousel, I noticed her pointing me out to her rather large husband. I just smiled at them pleasantly. Fortunately nothing further occurred. > > > > > > Its just so sad to think of little ones in the hands of some " intrusively insensitive " jerk who just doesn't give a fig if the baby is distressed, or needs to be fed or needs to sleep or needs attention. Seems to me that " intrusive insensitivity " is just another way of saying, " it's always all about nada. " > > > > > > -Annie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2010 Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 Are there any relatives or neighbors who were around your nada and you enough to have seen her interacting with you as an infant and toddler over time, and are they available to ask? And if you asked, do you think they would tell you the truth if they witnessed abuse or would they protect your nada? Also, do you think they ever saw your nada being her true self? My nada didn't live close enough to her foo for them to drop over easily, and she and her sisters didn't just " hang out " together at all, really. Neighbors didn't " drop in " at our house unexpectedly, either. It wasn't something my nada did herself and I don't think she encouraged it with her friends and neighbors. Everything with nada had to be planned in advance; she has never liked surprises. There were regular Sunday dinners with granny and grandpa (nada's foo), like, every other Sunday but nada was on her best behavior around everyone but her older sister, for the most part. So, even if nada became angry at me at granny's house, she'd save up acting on it for when we were driving back home or once we got home. She'd never unleash her full tantrum-rage at me around dad, either. The abuse Sister and I received was fairly covert. Dad saw some of it, such as the nearly constant stream of criticism, but the worst of nada's terrifying rage-tantrums and physical batterings happened when we were alone with her. -Annie > > > > > > I was reading (an excerpt from a study, I think) RE how mothers with bpd respond to, relate to, and interact with their infants and toddlers, as compared to a control group of mentally healthy mothers. > > > > > > The personality-disordered mothers were described as being " intrusively insensitive " to their infant's emotional cues. > > > > > > It would appear that the personality-disordered mothers could not or would not (a) be alert to their child's signals (b)interpret the signals correctly, or © respond appropriately. Possibly the personality-disordered mothers were either too self-absorbed, too bored, too uncaring/depressed, too controlling and rigid, or too lacking in empathy, i.e.: " I'll tell you when you're hungry! " sort of thing. So, playful bids for attention, distress sounds, hunger sounds, etc., from the babies were ignored or dismissed and instead the bpd moms would, for example, handle the infant and try to get the baby to mirror her and play with her when her baby was clearly sleepy. > > > > > > So the little child ends up learning and responding to her mother's emotional cues and mirroring mommy, instead of the proper way 'round. > > > > > > I believe I actually witnessed " intrusive insensitivity " in person once, on a late-night plane flight. All us passengers were attempting to sleep except (apparently) this one young woman seated in front of me. Her 4-year-old was curled up and snoozing, but mommy was wide awake and every time her 18-month-old started nodding off, mommy would jiggle her toddler awake again, play energetic bouncy or tickling games with her (at full vocal volume, oblivious to the rest of us trying to sleep) then after a few minutes the little one would start to nod off again, and momsie would start jouncing her awake again. After three repetitions of this shrieking and giggling game, I leaned forward, said how cute her children are, and asked her if she would mind switching to some quieter games, like, maybe she could just read softly to her child or something? > > > > > > This woman's eyes flew open as though I'd said something shocking to her, but she did quiet down and let her baby go to sleep. > > > > > > Later at the luggage carousel, I noticed her pointing me out to her rather large husband. I just smiled at them pleasantly. Fortunately nothing further occurred. > > > > > > Its just so sad to think of little ones in the hands of some " intrusively insensitive " jerk who just doesn't give a fig if the baby is distressed, or needs to be fed or needs to sleep or needs attention. Seems to me that " intrusive insensitivity " is just another way of saying, " it's always all about nada. " > > > > > > -Annie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2010 Report Share Posted November 26, 2010 I hear you Annie. Fada heard some of the critical stuff, but the worst always occurred when he was not there. As time went on, years, she stopped curving her tongue; fada did nothing anyway, so it really never mattered whether he heard it or not. However, physical harm......that was for my eyes (and ass) only. The only one I have to ask is my fada's bro's 4th wife! She's in her 90's. Don't really think she was around when I was that little. My fada's sister, however, before she died, had made some comments to me about how mother treated us...........didn't know about BPD at the time so I didn't pursue it. Your story sounds similar to mine. Laurie In a message dated 11/25/2010 11:52:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, anuria-67854@... writes: Are there any relatives or neighbors who were around your nada and you enough to have seen her interacting with you as an infant and toddler over time, and are they available to ask? And if you asked, do you think they would tell you the truth if they witnessed abuse or would they protect your nada? Also, do you think they ever saw your nada being her true self? My nada didn't live close enough to her foo for them to drop over easily, and she and her sisters didn't just " hang out " together at all, really. Neighbors didn't " drop in " at our house unexpectedly, either. It wasn't something my nada did herself and I don't think she encouraged it with her friends and neighbors. Everything with nada had to be planned in advance; she has never liked surprises. There were regular Sunday dinners with granny and grandpa (nada's foo), like, every other Sunday but nada was on her best behavior around everyone but her older sister, for the most part. So, even if nada became angry at me at granny's house, she'd save up acting on it for when we were driving back home or once we got home. She'd never unleash her full tantrum-rage at me around dad, either. The abuse Sister and I received was fairly covert. Dad saw some of it, such as the nearly constant stream of criticism, but the worst of nada's terrifying rage-tantrums and physical batterings happened when we were alone with her. -Annie > > > > > > I was reading (an excerpt from a study, I think) RE how mothers with bpd respond to, relate to, and interact with their infants and toddlers, as compared to a control group of mentally healthy mothers. > > > > > > The personality-disordered mothers were described as being " intrusively insensitive " to their infant's emotional cues. > > > > > > It would appear that the personality-disordered mothers could not or would not (a) be alert to their child's signals (b)interpret the signals correctly, or © respond appropriately. Possibly the personality-disordered mothers were either too self-absorbed, too bored, too uncaring/depressed, too controlling and rigid, or too lacking in empathy, i.e.: " I'll tell you when you're hungry! " sort of thing. So, playful bids for attention, distress sounds, hunger sounds, etc., from the babies were ignored or dismissed and instead the bpd moms would, for example, handle the infant and try to get the baby to mirror her and play with her when her baby was clearly sleepy. > > > > > > So the little child ends up learning and responding to her mother's emotional cues and mirroring mommy, instead of the proper way 'round. > > > > > > I believe I actually witnessed " intrusive insensitivity " in person once, on a late-night plane flight. All us passengers were attempting to sleep except (apparently) this one young woman seated in front of me. Her 4-year-old was curled up and snoozing, but mommy was wide awake and every time her 18-month-old started nodding off, mommy would jiggle her toddler awake again, play energetic bouncy or tickling games with her (at full vocal volume, oblivious to the rest of us trying to sleep) then after a few minutes the little one would start to nod off again, and momsie would start jouncing her awake again. After three repetitions of this shrieking and giggling game, I leaned forward, said how cute her children are, and asked her if she would mind switching to some quieter games, like, maybe she could just read softly to her child or something? > > > > > > This woman's eyes flew open as though I'd said something shocking to her, but she did quiet down and let her baby go to sleep. > > > > > > Later at the luggage carousel, I noticed her pointing me out to her rather large husband. I just smiled at them pleasantly. Fortunately nothing further occurred. > > > > > > Its just so sad to think of little ones in the hands of some " intrusively insensitive " jerk who just doesn't give a fig if the baby is distressed, or needs to be fed or needs to sleep or needs attention. Seems to me that " intrusive insensitivity " is just another way of saying, " it's always all about nada. " > > > > > > -Annie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2010 Report Share Posted November 26, 2010 I hear you Annie. Fada heard some of the critical stuff, but the worst always occurred when he was not there. As time went on, years, she stopped curving her tongue; fada did nothing anyway, so it really never mattered whether he heard it or not. However, physical harm......that was for my eyes (and ass) only. The only one I have to ask is my fada's bro's 4th wife! She's in her 90's. Don't really think she was around when I was that little. My fada's sister, however, before she died, had made some comments to me about how mother treated us...........didn't know about BPD at the time so I didn't pursue it. Your story sounds similar to mine. Laurie In a message dated 11/25/2010 11:52:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, anuria-67854@... writes: Are there any relatives or neighbors who were around your nada and you enough to have seen her interacting with you as an infant and toddler over time, and are they available to ask? And if you asked, do you think they would tell you the truth if they witnessed abuse or would they protect your nada? Also, do you think they ever saw your nada being her true self? My nada didn't live close enough to her foo for them to drop over easily, and she and her sisters didn't just " hang out " together at all, really. Neighbors didn't " drop in " at our house unexpectedly, either. It wasn't something my nada did herself and I don't think she encouraged it with her friends and neighbors. Everything with nada had to be planned in advance; she has never liked surprises. There were regular Sunday dinners with granny and grandpa (nada's foo), like, every other Sunday but nada was on her best behavior around everyone but her older sister, for the most part. So, even if nada became angry at me at granny's house, she'd save up acting on it for when we were driving back home or once we got home. She'd never unleash her full tantrum-rage at me around dad, either. The abuse Sister and I received was fairly covert. Dad saw some of it, such as the nearly constant stream of criticism, but the worst of nada's terrifying rage-tantrums and physical batterings happened when we were alone with her. -Annie > > > > > > I was reading (an excerpt from a study, I think) RE how mothers with bpd respond to, relate to, and interact with their infants and toddlers, as compared to a control group of mentally healthy mothers. > > > > > > The personality-disordered mothers were described as being " intrusively insensitive " to their infant's emotional cues. > > > > > > It would appear that the personality-disordered mothers could not or would not (a) be alert to their child's signals (b)interpret the signals correctly, or © respond appropriately. Possibly the personality-disordered mothers were either too self-absorbed, too bored, too uncaring/depressed, too controlling and rigid, or too lacking in empathy, i.e.: " I'll tell you when you're hungry! " sort of thing. So, playful bids for attention, distress sounds, hunger sounds, etc., from the babies were ignored or dismissed and instead the bpd moms would, for example, handle the infant and try to get the baby to mirror her and play with her when her baby was clearly sleepy. > > > > > > So the little child ends up learning and responding to her mother's emotional cues and mirroring mommy, instead of the proper way 'round. > > > > > > I believe I actually witnessed " intrusive insensitivity " in person once, on a late-night plane flight. All us passengers were attempting to sleep except (apparently) this one young woman seated in front of me. Her 4-year-old was curled up and snoozing, but mommy was wide awake and every time her 18-month-old started nodding off, mommy would jiggle her toddler awake again, play energetic bouncy or tickling games with her (at full vocal volume, oblivious to the rest of us trying to sleep) then after a few minutes the little one would start to nod off again, and momsie would start jouncing her awake again. After three repetitions of this shrieking and giggling game, I leaned forward, said how cute her children are, and asked her if she would mind switching to some quieter games, like, maybe she could just read softly to her child or something? > > > > > > This woman's eyes flew open as though I'd said something shocking to her, but she did quiet down and let her baby go to sleep. > > > > > > Later at the luggage carousel, I noticed her pointing me out to her rather large husband. I just smiled at them pleasantly. Fortunately nothing further occurred. > > > > > > Its just so sad to think of little ones in the hands of some " intrusively insensitive " jerk who just doesn't give a fig if the baby is distressed, or needs to be fed or needs to sleep or needs attention. Seems to me that " intrusive insensitivity " is just another way of saying, " it's always all about nada. " > > > > > > -Annie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2010 Report Share Posted November 26, 2010 I hear you Annie. Fada heard some of the critical stuff, but the worst always occurred when he was not there. As time went on, years, she stopped curving her tongue; fada did nothing anyway, so it really never mattered whether he heard it or not. However, physical harm......that was for my eyes (and ass) only. The only one I have to ask is my fada's bro's 4th wife! She's in her 90's. Don't really think she was around when I was that little. My fada's sister, however, before she died, had made some comments to me about how mother treated us...........didn't know about BPD at the time so I didn't pursue it. Your story sounds similar to mine. Laurie In a message dated 11/25/2010 11:52:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, anuria-67854@... writes: Are there any relatives or neighbors who were around your nada and you enough to have seen her interacting with you as an infant and toddler over time, and are they available to ask? And if you asked, do you think they would tell you the truth if they witnessed abuse or would they protect your nada? Also, do you think they ever saw your nada being her true self? My nada didn't live close enough to her foo for them to drop over easily, and she and her sisters didn't just " hang out " together at all, really. Neighbors didn't " drop in " at our house unexpectedly, either. It wasn't something my nada did herself and I don't think she encouraged it with her friends and neighbors. Everything with nada had to be planned in advance; she has never liked surprises. There were regular Sunday dinners with granny and grandpa (nada's foo), like, every other Sunday but nada was on her best behavior around everyone but her older sister, for the most part. So, even if nada became angry at me at granny's house, she'd save up acting on it for when we were driving back home or once we got home. She'd never unleash her full tantrum-rage at me around dad, either. The abuse Sister and I received was fairly covert. Dad saw some of it, such as the nearly constant stream of criticism, but the worst of nada's terrifying rage-tantrums and physical batterings happened when we were alone with her. -Annie > > > > > > I was reading (an excerpt from a study, I think) RE how mothers with bpd respond to, relate to, and interact with their infants and toddlers, as compared to a control group of mentally healthy mothers. > > > > > > The personality-disordered mothers were described as being " intrusively insensitive " to their infant's emotional cues. > > > > > > It would appear that the personality-disordered mothers could not or would not (a) be alert to their child's signals (b)interpret the signals correctly, or © respond appropriately. Possibly the personality-disordered mothers were either too self-absorbed, too bored, too uncaring/depressed, too controlling and rigid, or too lacking in empathy, i.e.: " I'll tell you when you're hungry! " sort of thing. So, playful bids for attention, distress sounds, hunger sounds, etc., from the babies were ignored or dismissed and instead the bpd moms would, for example, handle the infant and try to get the baby to mirror her and play with her when her baby was clearly sleepy. > > > > > > So the little child ends up learning and responding to her mother's emotional cues and mirroring mommy, instead of the proper way 'round. > > > > > > I believe I actually witnessed " intrusive insensitivity " in person once, on a late-night plane flight. All us passengers were attempting to sleep except (apparently) this one young woman seated in front of me. Her 4-year-old was curled up and snoozing, but mommy was wide awake and every time her 18-month-old started nodding off, mommy would jiggle her toddler awake again, play energetic bouncy or tickling games with her (at full vocal volume, oblivious to the rest of us trying to sleep) then after a few minutes the little one would start to nod off again, and momsie would start jouncing her awake again. After three repetitions of this shrieking and giggling game, I leaned forward, said how cute her children are, and asked her if she would mind switching to some quieter games, like, maybe she could just read softly to her child or something? > > > > > > This woman's eyes flew open as though I'd said something shocking to her, but she did quiet down and let her baby go to sleep. > > > > > > Later at the luggage carousel, I noticed her pointing me out to her rather large husband. I just smiled at them pleasantly. Fortunately nothing further occurred. > > > > > > Its just so sad to think of little ones in the hands of some " intrusively insensitive " jerk who just doesn't give a fig if the baby is distressed, or needs to be fed or needs to sleep or needs attention. Seems to me that " intrusive insensitivity " is just another way of saying, " it's always all about nada. " > > > > > > -Annie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2010 Report Share Posted November 26, 2010 Crazy,thank you for taking the time to post this.Very interesting indeed. Reading this,I think my nada must have been both intrusive AND withdrawn when I was an infant.Probably more withdrawn up to about the age of ten months and then when I became mobile she was much more intrusive.When there is too much going on--too many people talking or too many things to multi-task--I feel overwhelmed and frustrated,like I can't take it all in...as if my brain wants to but can't to compute an *intrusion* of information which seems to fit with having had an intrusive nada at the stage of development when I would have been learning how to manipulate my environment (age ten months to two years?) I remember reading an article a while back from a research study involving withdrawn mothers in which there was a line about withdrawn mothers needing to learn how to " speed up " their interactions with their infants.I often feel like I am really slow in responding to others.Well,I am often slow in my responses,like a few beats or a few paces behind.I'm not " right there " with a conversation or an interaction.I am pretty sure my nada was withdrawn with me as an infant based on what she has told me plus the fact that I feel much much more gutted than the situation warrants whenever someone seems to withdraw or turn away from me.My gutted reaction does feel infantile and too much. I think it was Annie who was saying in an earlier post in this thread that the infants of a nada learn to mirror *nada's* feelings rather than how it should be,the mother mirroring her infant.I know that I also have a strange reaction whenever I discover that I was the " only one " who felt a certain way about something,like say I'm with a group of people and there's a glorious sunset and I'm the only one in the group tripping on how beautiful it is and everyone else has barely noticed and instead they're all discussing where we're going to go for dinner...I suddenly feel really really alone,like I'm utterly alone in some solitary void or like I'm some alien from another planet.It *feels* like I was never taught to experience my own mood as my own mood; my own perceptions as my own perceptions--that feeling my own mood or having my own perceptions is the same as being all alone and it's a sort of nothingness. Can anyone else relate to that? > > My nada said the exact same thing - " you kids never cried " . It certainly seemed odd to me. > > I did a google search for " intrusive mothers and infants " and there are many studies that might explain why - one called " Intrusive and Withdrawn Behaviours of Mothers Interacting with their Infants and Boyfriends " . REALLY INTERESTING!!!! BPD mothers are considered to be " intrusive " . > > Here are a few excepts from it (Ive deleted all the referencing to make it easier to read): > > During face-to-face, mother±infant interactions, > withdrawn mothers demonstrate affectively restricted > behaviours. They appear expressionless and verbalize in a > flat tone of voice and spend less time touching their > infants and more time turning away. In contrast, intrusive mothers > demonstrate greater affectivity and overstimulation, which may interfere with their infants' > goal-directed activities. Intrusive mothers exhibit > anger, hostility, high levels of irritability, and even overt > physical intrusiveness. > > > Mothers were classified as intrusive if they > demonstrated physical contacts such as: rough tickling, poking, > pulling, shaking, looming, and using brisk movements, during > at least 50%of the interaction. Mothers could also be classified > as intrusive if they were physically intrusive during somewhat > smaller proportions of time but demonstrated loud, noncontingent > speech and exaggerated, fake, facial expressions. > > In contrast, mothers who had demonstrated intrusiveness > with their infants were verbally sharp and > interfering with their boyfriends' efforts to solve a puzzle. > Their controlling behaviour emerged over the project of > ``working together'' on the puzzle. A few never released > the puzzle, monopolizing it for 100% of the time and > turning the interaction into a ``tug-of-war'', suggesting > an inability to play appropriately and impeding goaldirected > activities with boyfriends as with infants. Yet, mothers were not directly aggressive toward their boyfriends. As Weissman and Paykel (1974) observed, mothers targeted infants more than husbands, > perhaps because infants are more vulnerable. > > A google book called Social and Emotional Devlopment in Infancy and Early Childhood (Pg 434) says: > > As a striking demonstration of the sensitivity of the infant to these differernt maternal ways of being with their infants, infants of intrusive mothers reacted one way, wheras infants of withdrawn mothers reacted another way. > Infants of intrusive mothers spent most of their time looking away from the mother, and seldom looked at objects. They infrequently cried. Infants of withdrawn mothers were more likely to protest and be distressed than the infants of intrusive mothers... > > > The infants of hostile intrusive mothers must cope with a different regulatory problem (than those with a withdrawn mother)... These infants initially experience anger, turn away from the mother, push her away, or screen her out. However, unlike the failure experience of the infnats of withdrawn mothers, these coping behaviours are occasionally successful in fending off the mother, these infants eventually internalise an angry and protective style of coping which is deployed defensively in anticipation of the mothers intrusiveness. > > > > I think this may explain why so many BPD mothers say that their baby " rejects " them, or the flip-side, that they were perfect for the sole reason that they didnt cry much. I feel this may explain a lot for me! And the part about " fake exaggerated facila expressions " , oh lord, thats a CHARACTERISTIC of this kind of mothering!!! I never knew that, and it makes so much sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2010 Report Share Posted November 26, 2010 Crazy,thank you for taking the time to post this.Very interesting indeed. Reading this,I think my nada must have been both intrusive AND withdrawn when I was an infant.Probably more withdrawn up to about the age of ten months and then when I became mobile she was much more intrusive.When there is too much going on--too many people talking or too many things to multi-task--I feel overwhelmed and frustrated,like I can't take it all in...as if my brain wants to but can't to compute an *intrusion* of information which seems to fit with having had an intrusive nada at the stage of development when I would have been learning how to manipulate my environment (age ten months to two years?) I remember reading an article a while back from a research study involving withdrawn mothers in which there was a line about withdrawn mothers needing to learn how to " speed up " their interactions with their infants.I often feel like I am really slow in responding to others.Well,I am often slow in my responses,like a few beats or a few paces behind.I'm not " right there " with a conversation or an interaction.I am pretty sure my nada was withdrawn with me as an infant based on what she has told me plus the fact that I feel much much more gutted than the situation warrants whenever someone seems to withdraw or turn away from me.My gutted reaction does feel infantile and too much. I think it was Annie who was saying in an earlier post in this thread that the infants of a nada learn to mirror *nada's* feelings rather than how it should be,the mother mirroring her infant.I know that I also have a strange reaction whenever I discover that I was the " only one " who felt a certain way about something,like say I'm with a group of people and there's a glorious sunset and I'm the only one in the group tripping on how beautiful it is and everyone else has barely noticed and instead they're all discussing where we're going to go for dinner...I suddenly feel really really alone,like I'm utterly alone in some solitary void or like I'm some alien from another planet.It *feels* like I was never taught to experience my own mood as my own mood; my own perceptions as my own perceptions--that feeling my own mood or having my own perceptions is the same as being all alone and it's a sort of nothingness. Can anyone else relate to that? > > My nada said the exact same thing - " you kids never cried " . It certainly seemed odd to me. > > I did a google search for " intrusive mothers and infants " and there are many studies that might explain why - one called " Intrusive and Withdrawn Behaviours of Mothers Interacting with their Infants and Boyfriends " . REALLY INTERESTING!!!! BPD mothers are considered to be " intrusive " . > > Here are a few excepts from it (Ive deleted all the referencing to make it easier to read): > > During face-to-face, mother±infant interactions, > withdrawn mothers demonstrate affectively restricted > behaviours. They appear expressionless and verbalize in a > flat tone of voice and spend less time touching their > infants and more time turning away. In contrast, intrusive mothers > demonstrate greater affectivity and overstimulation, which may interfere with their infants' > goal-directed activities. Intrusive mothers exhibit > anger, hostility, high levels of irritability, and even overt > physical intrusiveness. > > > Mothers were classified as intrusive if they > demonstrated physical contacts such as: rough tickling, poking, > pulling, shaking, looming, and using brisk movements, during > at least 50%of the interaction. Mothers could also be classified > as intrusive if they were physically intrusive during somewhat > smaller proportions of time but demonstrated loud, noncontingent > speech and exaggerated, fake, facial expressions. > > In contrast, mothers who had demonstrated intrusiveness > with their infants were verbally sharp and > interfering with their boyfriends' efforts to solve a puzzle. > Their controlling behaviour emerged over the project of > ``working together'' on the puzzle. A few never released > the puzzle, monopolizing it for 100% of the time and > turning the interaction into a ``tug-of-war'', suggesting > an inability to play appropriately and impeding goaldirected > activities with boyfriends as with infants. Yet, mothers were not directly aggressive toward their boyfriends. As Weissman and Paykel (1974) observed, mothers targeted infants more than husbands, > perhaps because infants are more vulnerable. > > A google book called Social and Emotional Devlopment in Infancy and Early Childhood (Pg 434) says: > > As a striking demonstration of the sensitivity of the infant to these differernt maternal ways of being with their infants, infants of intrusive mothers reacted one way, wheras infants of withdrawn mothers reacted another way. > Infants of intrusive mothers spent most of their time looking away from the mother, and seldom looked at objects. They infrequently cried. Infants of withdrawn mothers were more likely to protest and be distressed than the infants of intrusive mothers... > > > The infants of hostile intrusive mothers must cope with a different regulatory problem (than those with a withdrawn mother)... These infants initially experience anger, turn away from the mother, push her away, or screen her out. However, unlike the failure experience of the infnats of withdrawn mothers, these coping behaviours are occasionally successful in fending off the mother, these infants eventually internalise an angry and protective style of coping which is deployed defensively in anticipation of the mothers intrusiveness. > > > > I think this may explain why so many BPD mothers say that their baby " rejects " them, or the flip-side, that they were perfect for the sole reason that they didnt cry much. I feel this may explain a lot for me! And the part about " fake exaggerated facila expressions " , oh lord, thats a CHARACTERISTIC of this kind of mothering!!! I never knew that, and it makes so much sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2010 Report Share Posted November 26, 2010 Crazy,thank you for taking the time to post this.Very interesting indeed. Reading this,I think my nada must have been both intrusive AND withdrawn when I was an infant.Probably more withdrawn up to about the age of ten months and then when I became mobile she was much more intrusive.When there is too much going on--too many people talking or too many things to multi-task--I feel overwhelmed and frustrated,like I can't take it all in...as if my brain wants to but can't to compute an *intrusion* of information which seems to fit with having had an intrusive nada at the stage of development when I would have been learning how to manipulate my environment (age ten months to two years?) I remember reading an article a while back from a research study involving withdrawn mothers in which there was a line about withdrawn mothers needing to learn how to " speed up " their interactions with their infants.I often feel like I am really slow in responding to others.Well,I am often slow in my responses,like a few beats or a few paces behind.I'm not " right there " with a conversation or an interaction.I am pretty sure my nada was withdrawn with me as an infant based on what she has told me plus the fact that I feel much much more gutted than the situation warrants whenever someone seems to withdraw or turn away from me.My gutted reaction does feel infantile and too much. I think it was Annie who was saying in an earlier post in this thread that the infants of a nada learn to mirror *nada's* feelings rather than how it should be,the mother mirroring her infant.I know that I also have a strange reaction whenever I discover that I was the " only one " who felt a certain way about something,like say I'm with a group of people and there's a glorious sunset and I'm the only one in the group tripping on how beautiful it is and everyone else has barely noticed and instead they're all discussing where we're going to go for dinner...I suddenly feel really really alone,like I'm utterly alone in some solitary void or like I'm some alien from another planet.It *feels* like I was never taught to experience my own mood as my own mood; my own perceptions as my own perceptions--that feeling my own mood or having my own perceptions is the same as being all alone and it's a sort of nothingness. Can anyone else relate to that? > > My nada said the exact same thing - " you kids never cried " . It certainly seemed odd to me. > > I did a google search for " intrusive mothers and infants " and there are many studies that might explain why - one called " Intrusive and Withdrawn Behaviours of Mothers Interacting with their Infants and Boyfriends " . REALLY INTERESTING!!!! BPD mothers are considered to be " intrusive " . > > Here are a few excepts from it (Ive deleted all the referencing to make it easier to read): > > During face-to-face, mother±infant interactions, > withdrawn mothers demonstrate affectively restricted > behaviours. They appear expressionless and verbalize in a > flat tone of voice and spend less time touching their > infants and more time turning away. In contrast, intrusive mothers > demonstrate greater affectivity and overstimulation, which may interfere with their infants' > goal-directed activities. Intrusive mothers exhibit > anger, hostility, high levels of irritability, and even overt > physical intrusiveness. > > > Mothers were classified as intrusive if they > demonstrated physical contacts such as: rough tickling, poking, > pulling, shaking, looming, and using brisk movements, during > at least 50%of the interaction. Mothers could also be classified > as intrusive if they were physically intrusive during somewhat > smaller proportions of time but demonstrated loud, noncontingent > speech and exaggerated, fake, facial expressions. > > In contrast, mothers who had demonstrated intrusiveness > with their infants were verbally sharp and > interfering with their boyfriends' efforts to solve a puzzle. > Their controlling behaviour emerged over the project of > ``working together'' on the puzzle. A few never released > the puzzle, monopolizing it for 100% of the time and > turning the interaction into a ``tug-of-war'', suggesting > an inability to play appropriately and impeding goaldirected > activities with boyfriends as with infants. Yet, mothers were not directly aggressive toward their boyfriends. As Weissman and Paykel (1974) observed, mothers targeted infants more than husbands, > perhaps because infants are more vulnerable. > > A google book called Social and Emotional Devlopment in Infancy and Early Childhood (Pg 434) says: > > As a striking demonstration of the sensitivity of the infant to these differernt maternal ways of being with their infants, infants of intrusive mothers reacted one way, wheras infants of withdrawn mothers reacted another way. > Infants of intrusive mothers spent most of their time looking away from the mother, and seldom looked at objects. They infrequently cried. Infants of withdrawn mothers were more likely to protest and be distressed than the infants of intrusive mothers... > > > The infants of hostile intrusive mothers must cope with a different regulatory problem (than those with a withdrawn mother)... These infants initially experience anger, turn away from the mother, push her away, or screen her out. However, unlike the failure experience of the infnats of withdrawn mothers, these coping behaviours are occasionally successful in fending off the mother, these infants eventually internalise an angry and protective style of coping which is deployed defensively in anticipation of the mothers intrusiveness. > > > > I think this may explain why so many BPD mothers say that their baby " rejects " them, or the flip-side, that they were perfect for the sole reason that they didnt cry much. I feel this may explain a lot for me! And the part about " fake exaggerated facila expressions " , oh lord, thats a CHARACTERISTIC of this kind of mothering!!! I never knew that, and it makes so much sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2010 Report Share Posted November 27, 2010 Nada's treatment of our dogs was always disturbing. She'd say " come here " or " give me a kiss " to one that was sleeping; the dog wouldn't come, and she'd scream " stupid dog " , Pretty darn sure she did the same thing to me. Laurie In a message dated 11/27/2010 1:31:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, coalminersdotter@... writes: Great study. This does make so much sense for me too. My mother always talks about how easy me and my sister were to care for. She mentions how we didn't cry. Watching her with my children and her dog, interestingly, has helped illuminate things for me. She put my 2 year-old in " nap " time for 4 hours during her babysitting time. When I arrived, he was in the back room crying and yelling trying to get out of the crib. (She doesn't watch them alone EVER now.) I notice that she grabs this small dog and pulls him on her lap. She is oblivious when he yelps or tries to get away. It is hard to watch, but helps me understand why I'm so f***ed up. -Coal Miner's Daughter > > My nada said the exact same thing - " you kids never cried " . It certainly seemed odd to me. > > I did a google search for " intrusive mothers and infants " and there are many studies that might explain why - one called " Intrusive and Withdrawn Behaviours of Mothers Interacting with their Infants and Boyfriends " . REALLY INTERESTING!!!! BPD mothers are considered to be " intrusive " . > > Here are a few excepts from it (Ive deleted all the referencing to make it easier to read): > > During face-to-face, mother±infant interactions, > withdrawn mothers demonstrate affectively restricted > behaviours. They appear expressionless and verbalize in a > flat tone of voice and spend less time touching their > infants and more time turning away. In contrast, intrusive mothers > demonstrate greater affectivity and overstimulation, which may interfere with their infants' > goal-directed activities. Intrusive mothers exhibit > anger, hostility, high levels of irritability, and even overt > physical intrusiveness. > > > Mothers were classified as intrusive if they > demonstrated physical contacts such as: rough tickling, poking, > pulling, shaking, looming, and using brisk movements, during > at least 50%of the interaction. Mothers could also be classified > as intrusive if they were physically intrusive during somewhat > smaller proportions of time but demonstrated loud, noncontingent > speech and exaggerated, fake, facial expressions. > > In contrast, mothers who had demonstrated intrusiveness > with their infants were verbally sharp and > interfering with their boyfriends' efforts to solve a puzzle. > Their controlling behaviour emerged over the project of > ``working together'' on the puzzle. A few never released > the puzzle, monopolizing it for 100% of the time and > turning the interaction into a ``tug-of-war'', suggesting > an inability to play appropriately and impeding goaldirected > activities with boyfriends as with infants. Yet, mothers were not directly aggressive toward their boyfriends. As Weissman and Paykel (1974) observed, mothers targeted infants more than husbands, > perhaps because infants are more vulnerable. > > A google book called Social and Emotional Devlopment in Infancy and Early Childhood (Pg 434) says: > > As a striking demonstration of the sensitivity of the infant to these differernt maternal ways of being with their infants, infants of intrusive mothers reacted one way, wheras infants of withdrawn mothers reacted another way. > Infants of intrusive mothers spent most of their time looking away from the mother, and seldom looked at objects. They infrequently cried. Infants of withdrawn mothers were more likely to protest and be distressed than the infants of intrusive mothers... > > > The infants of hostile intrusive mothers must cope with a different regulatory problem (than those with a withdrawn mother)... These infants initially experience anger, turn away from the mother, push her away, or screen her out. However, unlike the failure experience of the infnats of withdrawn mothers, these coping behaviours are occasionally successful in fending off the mother, these infants eventually internalise an angry and protective style of coping which is deployed defensively in anticipation of the mothers intrusiveness. > > > > I think this may explain why so many BPD mothers say that their baby " rejects " them, or the flip-side, that they were perfect for the sole reason that they didnt cry much. I feel this may explain a lot for me! And the part about " fake exaggerated facila expressions " , oh lord, thats a CHARACTERISTIC of this kind of mothering!!! I never knew that, and it makes so much sense. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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