Re: Supervised visits with nada and foo (for me!)

[Guest guest]

>

> When my husband is around, the pointed comments and baiting just don't happen

at all. Is this because of some " weakness " in me or just the fact that I am the

target? How can I be stronger?

>

I don't think this is because you are somehow " weak " or " flawed. " It is because

BPD parents like to corner people alone when they turn on their negative

behaviors full-force.

My mother has rarely misbehaved in front of my husband. She is too afraid that

he will think badly of her. Me, she already thinks I have a low opinion of her,

so she is totally okay with showing me her bad side.

She rarely does abusive things in front of other adults. Sometimes, my father

has been present when she acted up, but he is in denial that she could ever do

anythign wrong, so he doesn't really count as another adult.

If you show your mother that you are not willing to sit there and take her abuse

anymore by hanging up or walking away when she starts, she will eventually learn

that she can't get away with it anymore. Communicate your personal limit: " Mom,

I'm not going to discuss that with you. " or " I'm not for calling names. " or " I

want you to stop making comments about [fill in the blank]. " and then end the

interaction if she continues. That will go a long way in helping you feel

stronger.

The other thing that might help you would be to start challenging your negative

thoughts. If you catch yourself thinking, " I'm weak, " or, " I must have done

something to deserve being treated like this, " stop and challenge that thought,

and replace it with, " I'm strong. I can do this. " or " I deserve to be treated

with respect and dignity. " If you have trouble believing that right away, just

keep practicing until you do. There's a lot of power in the way we think.

KT

[Guest guest]

>

> When my husband is around, the pointed comments and baiting just don't happen

at all. Is this because of some " weakness " in me or just the fact that I am the

target? How can I be stronger?

>

I don't think this is because you are somehow " weak " or " flawed. " It is because

BPD parents like to corner people alone when they turn on their negative

behaviors full-force.

My mother has rarely misbehaved in front of my husband. She is too afraid that

he will think badly of her. Me, she already thinks I have a low opinion of her,

so she is totally okay with showing me her bad side.

She rarely does abusive things in front of other adults. Sometimes, my father

has been present when she acted up, but he is in denial that she could ever do

anythign wrong, so he doesn't really count as another adult.

If you show your mother that you are not willing to sit there and take her abuse

anymore by hanging up or walking away when she starts, she will eventually learn

that she can't get away with it anymore. Communicate your personal limit: " Mom,

I'm not going to discuss that with you. " or " I'm not for calling names. " or " I

want you to stop making comments about [fill in the blank]. " and then end the

interaction if she continues. That will go a long way in helping you feel

stronger.

The other thing that might help you would be to start challenging your negative

thoughts. If you catch yourself thinking, " I'm weak, " or, " I must have done

something to deserve being treated like this, " stop and challenge that thought,

and replace it with, " I'm strong. I can do this. " or " I deserve to be treated

with respect and dignity. " If you have trouble believing that right away, just

keep practicing until you do. There's a lot of power in the way we think.

KT

[Guest guest]

Then write this down, so you won t forget it, CMD.

I won t be coming to visit because ( your words)

I just don't want to visit them because they attack me and my kids.

You do not have to justify doing what makes you comfortable. They will

no doubt attack that statement, in which case you hang up the f ing

phone. Do NOT take bs and abuse from nada or flying monkeys or foos.

If any of them shows an interest in making it better, be open to it, but

be direct. XYZ is what I do not appreciate, and that will have to be

absent for any contact. If you want to try to heal the wounds, you can

make the first move and visit us without the former bs.

Otherwise, my kids and Iwill stay where we feel safe.

You are not a bad person for being honest.

BP s teach us that we can never be honest and open or they will use it

against us.

You can show them a whole new Coal Miners Daughter. Remember the scene

from that movie where Loretta says to some bimbo with dew, girl if you

want to keep that arm, you better get it off my husband?

There s your model, dear.

Go for it.

Doug

>

> Dear Annie and WTO members,

>

> I have read advice from Annie before saying that we could have a

friend along during visits with nada or foo. I find visits with nada or

foo with my husband in attendance turn out fun and are not threatening.

Alone, I can get cornered and tormented for entertainment(feeling like

the proverbial mouse toyed with by the cat).

>

> Does this mean I am weak or unable to handle my own boundaries?

Lately, I don't give in or get in dogfights. I also say what I think

and don't squelch my feelings, but it feels like a battleground. I am

exhausted from these encounters at worst and annoyed at best.

>

> When my husband is around, the pointed comments and baiting just don't

happen at all. Is this because of some " weakness " in me or just the

fact that I am the target? How can I be stronger?

>

> I would like to be able to go out of state to visit family, but it

isolates me and causes tremendous stress. (Husband can't get time off

to come and we have financial issues. Otherwise, I would get a hotel

room and just have some fun on the trip. But I don't travel or stay

alone well either because of residual PTSD from time overseas.)

> I feel like a walking basketcase on these trips and have not been to

see family for 1 1/2 years. Should I just stay home forever? (Okay by

me.) We have a lot of fun activities and hobbies and go to parks, play

outside, etc. They are welcome to come see me.

>

> p.s. What do I tell them? Just cite travel issues and play the role

of poor depressed me? I hate that! I'm not sick or weak! I just don't

want to visit them because they attack me and my kids.

>

> -Coal Miner's Daughter

>

[Guest guest]

All good points, Doug, especially this one:

> You do not have to justify doing what makes you comfortable. They will

> no doubt attack that statement, in which case you hang up the f ing

> phone. Do NOT take bs and abuse from nada or flying monkeys or foos.

They do try to trap you in an argument about justification.

Recently, I asked my mother to stop sending me money and gifts. They make me

uncomfortable. She wanted to know: why, and whether I don't want any gifts from

anyone ever or just from her. Here's what I told her:

" I don't need to justify my feelings to you. I have told you that it makes me

uncomfortable when you send me gifts and money, and I am asking you to stop. "

She agreed at that point. If she had persisted, I would have moved on to the

next boundary or hung up on her.

kt

[Guest guest]

My nada's very long-standing pattern of behavior was to appear rational, normal

and gracious around other adults, but she felt safe to express/project her real

feelings: her inner rage, her self-loathing, her frustration, her jealousy, her

narcissistic injury, her humiliation, (whatever) on me and my little Sister and

attack us (as form of self-soothing?) when we were alone with her. Nada did this

because we were too little to fight back, and too dependent on her to even try,

and too innocent to realize we even had a right to protect ourselves.

Attacking someone who is alone and vulnerable is the behavior of a bully. The

bully only attacks from a safe place. The bully makes a point of picking on

someone smaller or weaker, makes a point of getting the victim alone, or, makes

a point of surrounding the victim with his or her " gang " and cutting off any

means of escape or defense.

So, if your nada evidences bullying behaviors toward you, its just smart to

out-strategize her by bringing along a friend or a spouse as protection. It's

smart to recognize your weak or vulnerable areas and protect them, it doesn't

mean you are inferior or cowardly, it means you are a good planner. Does it

mean you are weak if you hold an umbrella to protect you from the rain? Nope.

It means you are intelligent.

I find that in late middle age I no longer have the desire to engage in

strained, defensive, stressful personal interaction with my nada. My whole life

was about walking on eggshells around her because confrontation or just being

assertive would result in a battle. And I no longer have the stamina for

battles. I'm like the shell-shocked soldier who startles at the backfiring of a

car, I can't take the stress anymore, so I am choosing to not have contact with

my nada and if I must have face-to-face contact with her, it's never going to be

alone, again. Ever.

I'm not going to walk through the dark alley by myself any more because I know

the bully is in there waiting to beat me up; I'm walking home some other way,

and I'm walking with a friend.

But each one of us has to figure out what he or she can live with, can or can't

tolerate, and feel good about afterward. Its an individual choice that has no

" good " or " bad " attached to it, its just your choice.

-Annie

>

> >

> > When my husband is around, the pointed comments and baiting just don't

happen at all. Is this because of some " weakness " in me or just the fact that I

am the target? How can I be stronger?

> >

>

>

> I don't think this is because you are somehow " weak " or " flawed. " It is

because BPD parents like to corner people alone when they turn on their negative

behaviors full-force.

>

> My mother has rarely misbehaved in front of my husband. She is too afraid

that he will think badly of her. Me, she already thinks I have a low opinion of

her, so she is totally okay with showing me her bad side.

>

> She rarely does abusive things in front of other adults. Sometimes, my father

has been present when she acted up, but he is in denial that she could ever do

anythign wrong, so he doesn't really count as another adult.

>

> If you show your mother that you are not willing to sit there and take her

abuse anymore by hanging up or walking away when she starts, she will eventually

learn that she can't get away with it anymore. Communicate your personal

limit: " Mom, I'm not going to discuss that with you. " or " I'm not for calling

names. " or " I want you to stop making comments about [fill in the blank]. " and

then end the interaction if she continues. That will go a long way in helping

you feel stronger.

>

> The other thing that might help you would be to start challenging your

negative thoughts. If you catch yourself thinking, " I'm weak, " or, " I must have

done something to deserve being treated like this, " stop and challenge that

thought, and replace it with, " I'm strong. I can do this. " or " I deserve to be

treated with respect and dignity. " If you have trouble believing that right

away, just keep practicing until you do. There's a lot of power in the way we

think.

>

> KT

>

[Guest guest]

what's a flying monkey??

Re: Supervised visits with nada and foo (for me!)

All good points, Doug, especially this one:

> You do not have to justify doing what makes you comfortable. They will

> no doubt attack that statement, in which case you hang up the f ing

> phone. Do NOT take bs and abuse from nada or flying monkeys or foos.

They do try to trap you in an argument about justification.

Recently, I asked my mother to stop sending me money and gifts. They make me

uncomfortable. She wanted to know: why, and whether I don't want any gifts from

anyone ever or just from her. Here's what I told her:

" I don't need to justify my feelings to you. I have told you that it makes me

uncomfortable when you send me gifts and money, and I am asking you to stop. "

She agreed at that point. If she had persisted, I would have moved on to the

next boundary or hung up on her.

kt

[Guest guest]

>

> what's a flying monkey??

>

Someone whom a nada uses to triangulate. (Triangulating is when someone goes

through one person to get to another person, rather than communicating

directly.) In " The Wizard of OZ, " the Wicked Witch of the West is served by an

army of winged monkeys. She sends them out to do her bidding.

Say a KO sets a boundary or goes NC with a nada. Nada calls someone else to get

them to call the KO and guilt them into calling Nada to apologize. That third

party is her winged monkey.

kt

[Guest guest]

>

> So, if your nada evidences bullying behaviors toward you, its just smart to

out-strategize her by bringing along a friend or a spouse as protection. It's

smart to recognize your weak or vulnerable areas and protect them, it doesn't

mean you are inferior or cowardly, it means you are a good planner. Does it

mean you are weak if you hold an umbrella to protect you from the rain? Nope.

It means you are intelligent.

>

>

> I'm not going to walk through the dark alley by myself any more because I know

the bully is in there waiting to beat me up; I'm walking home some other way,

and I'm walking with a friend.

>

Well said, Annie.

[Guest guest]

yikes, i live in a family of flying monkeys

Re: Supervised visits with nada and foo (for me!)

>

> what's a flying monkey??

>

Someone whom a nada uses to triangulate. (Triangulating is when someone goes

through one person to get to another person, rather than communicating

directly.) In " The Wizard of OZ, " the Wicked Witch of the West is served by an

army of winged monkeys. She sends them out to do her bidding.

Say a KO sets a boundary or goes NC with a nada. Nada calls someone else to get

them to call the KO and guilt them into calling Nada to apologize. That third

party is her winged monkey.

kt

[Guest guest]

FOOs ( families of origen ) of KO s ( kids of, BPs, ie, US) are

frequently filled with flying monkeys.

The KO who catches the brunt of the shit, ( can I say shit here) come to

understand all to well the craziness. FM s will try to do anything to

make the BP happy. They will of course, fail..

Doug

>

> yikes, i live in a family of flying monkeys

>

>

[Guest guest]

Your observations are correct, nada behaves better when others are present. This

is a very common BPD trait, and it's not becuase you're weak either. You are

very strong and astute in fact!

I think the reason their behaviour improves around others is because they have

some degree of control over their nastiness. They are adept at appearing

charming to those who they wish to fool, to you however, they need you to be a

receptacle for their toxic emotional sludge. So kudos for saying " No thanks! "

Bravo!

I use this trick with my nada too, I try to have as many friends and bystanders

available to offset the bad behaviour. This drives nada nuts so it's a bonus for

me.

Oh, and not wanting your family near you and your kids is a good thing. This

boundary is necessary and will make you stronger. I always try to remember that

I don't have to explain my reasoning for my boundaries, the fact theat I have

the boundary is enough information for anybody. That way nasty nada can't try to

dismiss my reasoning, she has only the boundary issue to deal with. No excuses

or explanations necessary.

[Guest guest]

Dear KT, Annie, Doug, Amy, HF, and the Group,

This is the BEST group! My sister always talks about how much she loves to hang

out with her friends, visit family, talk on the phone. I just could not relate

to that before. For me, social interactions like these were so painful or

uncomfortable that it just wasn't worth it - especially with family, of course.

For the first time in my life, since like middle school, I actually have

something I'd rather do than work. I love spending time with my husband, but

sometimes I am so overwrought worrying that I've done something wrong or so busy

criticizing him that I ruin the fun. (I'm working on that, by the way.)

There is this strange kind of thing about me where people seem to like me and

respond well to me, but I prefer to be left alone. I don't know if being a bit

standoffish helps keep me safe or what. I function well in groups or in a

professional capacity. Also, I've been singing and playing guitar since I was

7, so I can perform or share music. But there's always this distance between me

and the other people, you know?

Doug, I don't know who you are in your " real " life, but you have a gift with

words. Thanks for the image of Loretta Lynn (Sissy Spacek in the movie, I

think). That picture in my mind will help me because I can call it up as a

concrete image of where I need to be. I have read your posts about depression

and the one you wrote to the lady trying to decide whether or not to let her

kids stay with nada alone. That helped me make my child care decision as well.

(NO Nada alone with a helpless child. EVER.)

I know depression can have many causes and have struggled with it and suicide

myself. But I want to make sure you know that you are helping people here and

that you have a powerful voice. Don't let the depression monster kill that in

you.

Sincerely,

Coal Miner's Daughter

[Guest guest]

The flying monkey thing is hilarious - and SO TRUE!!! I love the Wizard of Oz

movie anyway. I watched it over and over at my Grandma's house as a kid, along

with country music specials she recorded for me.

Man, that flying monkey image is so perfect. And shows how mindless we are when

we function under nada's control. I've been a monkey a time or two myself. :-)

Where can I find these references to Oz? I thought I read the recommended

material and looked through intro information on the web-site. What am I

missing? (I read SWOES, the workbook, Surviving a Borderline Parent, I hate you

don't leave me, and Get Me Out of Here.) p.s. Randi Kreger is a genius. I love

how she found a way to get this info out and join people together for healing.

I can only hope that I will be able to do likewise in some small measure in my

own life.

p.s. Is it ironic that Dorothy had a pet doggie that the witch targeted? We

have noticed on here before that pets don't fare too well with nadas... " I'll

get you my pretty, and your little dog too! "

-Coal Miner's Daughter

>

>

> >

> > what's a flying monkey??

> >

>

> Someone whom a nada uses to triangulate. (Triangulating is when someone goes

through one person to get to another person, rather than communicating

directly.) In " The Wizard of OZ, " the Wicked Witch of the West is served by an

army of winged monkeys. She sends them out to do her bidding.

>

> Say a KO sets a boundary or goes NC with a nada. Nada calls someone else to

get them to call the KO and guilt them into calling Nada to apologize. That

third party is her winged monkey.

>

> kt

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I m just a man. A broken kid inside, dealing with what we all deal with

after life with nada; the pain, the FOG, the shame. If my life has any

meaning it is where my pain and experience is able to help another take

a step forward.

Thanks for your kind thought about my gift. I have a book in the works

about life with nada, but it has been on hold. The depression monster

sucks out the juices for creative work. But I m trying to heal.

Indeed, my theme in this group, is and ever shall be

May we all heal.

Doug

>

> Dear KT, Annie, Doug, Amy, HF, and the Group,

> Doug, I don't know who you are in your " real " life, but you have a

gift with words. Thanks for the image of Loretta Lynn (Sissy Spacek in

the movie, I think). That picture in my mind will help me because I can

call it up as a concrete image of where I need to be. I have read your

posts about depression and the one you wrote to the lady trying to

decide whether or not to let her kids stay with nada alone. That helped

me make my child care decision as well. (NO Nada alone with a helpless

child. EVER.)

>

> I know depression can have many causes and have struggled with it and

suicide myself. But I want to make sure you know that you are helping

people here and that you have a powerful voice. Don't let the

depression monster kill that in you.

>

> Sincerely,

> Coal Miner's Daughter

>