Re: my mother is very sick

[Guest guest]

((((Joe)))) so sorry for all that you've endured within your FOO. I can only

imagine the helplessness of seeing your past reflected now in the reality of

these children. Is there any way you can intervene or take some action if only

speaking your truth somehow? maybe a direct way to help the children maybe

offering to babysit them sometimes? My nada goes blank too at critical moments

and has huge denial about certain subjects. I think this is the point that is

so hard to accept that they really do have a mental illness, it's not just a

seriously maladaptive personality. The only advice I can give is to remember

that her behavior never ever were about you and say nothing about your value as

a human being.

>

> I havent' been posting in a while because I feel like what I am dealing with

specifically isn't really a good fit for this board right now. But I wanted to

throw this out, just to see if it is anyone else's experience here and how

people think it fits in with BPD. I have been reliving my childhood watching my

mother (not) deal with the borderline (my sister in law) that is living in her

house. I have seen her go more and more into denial, placate the bpd more and

more, refuse to confront her on the cleaning issues, the neglect issues with the

children, etc. She rationalizes, she makes excuses and more and more she

disengages and flat out denies. She is the adult child of a compulsive

gambler/alcoholic/pedophile, her mother died when she was ten.

>

> My mother has a job and is well-liked. She functions in society and no one

would ever call her 'crazy'. She is in no way histrionic, EVER. She is rarely

emotionally demonstrative in a negative way. But she did not protect me from her

father, in fact she packed up both my sister and I and sent us to stay with him

for a week, knowing he would be drunk the whole time and knowing we would be

sleeping in his bed with him (I went one summer and sister went the next, he

lived with his own sister). His sister was aware of the abuse and did not

intervene.

>

> My father was abusive of me also and my mother did not intervene, except when

he physically attacked me, she would get between us. Watching her not protect

these kids (or intervene on their behalf to the mom about cleaning and

supervision, they aren't being beaten or anything) has really put me back in

childhood in an almost paralyzing way. I feel like I am in an abyss, and being

crushed, watching her concede territory daily to this BPD in the household and

actually prop her up. It is like a nightmare because it is living a current

nightmare and going through memories of the past one at the same time. She had

no empathy and would not validate any abuse of me that occurred. If I told her,

like I did after I had my first gynecological appointment, that it was apparent

to the obgyn that I had serious internal scarring, she literally looked down and

did not acknowledge it. She had zero curiosity about what might have happened to

me and when. WHAT KIND OF MOTHER DOES THIS? When my sister and I compared notes

and told her we'd been abused by her father, she dismissed it, continued to

allow him to babysit and visit all the time, and even sent my brother to stay

with him for a week the following summer. She still has his photos up everywhere

and talks about him fondly.

>

> Can anyone relate to this very specific behavior of refusing to protect

children from predators, refusing to validate or acknowledge abuse that has

occurred, refusing to ever give credence to anything an insane person is doing

that points to mental instability? I swear to god, she just 'goes away'. It's

literally like she is no longer in her body. I don't know what to call it other

than a dissociative disorder, denial is not nearly strong enough a word for what

this is. it made me crazy growing up. So many times she 'checked out' when I

needed her in one way or another. She is like a robot going through the motions.

But don't expect her to ever acknowledge ANY abuse that happened or is happening

to you.

>

> Another story from my childhood, actually I was in my teens and visiting my

grandmother (on the other side of the family). My uncle came home with a two

year old girl whose mother he had met on the bus to somewhere, rumors later on

were that a 'trade' had taken place for drugs, I don't know why he had her but

apparently he had a history with the mother. At some point during the visit, she

went up to my grandmother and and said " when X (my uncle) sleeps with me, he

plays with my behind " . NO ONE stepped in to help this child. I don't even

remember when the mother showed up to get her...I remember asking my grandmother

about it, and she got the meanest look on her face when I repeated what the

little girl said, and she said, in a very severe and hateful tone, " Children

LIE. " This is the story of my family. Over and over again it is one story after

another just like this. Stepford mothers who walk around like zombies protecting

themselves from seeing the children in their midst being mistreated. Actually

<<that sentence sums up this whole post. The stepford behavior is literally

making me sick to my stomach lately. What causes this robotic denial? I mean, I

know it is abuse, but if the person is not a histrionic witch or queen, they can

literally go through life with everyone loving them, eating them up, calling

them things like 'sweet and kind' meanwhile they are committing the most hideous

dereliction of duty as a parent, or as a human, the refusal to see abuse right

in front of them, or act in any way to stop it. It's NOT THAT HARD. All my

mother would have had to do was not send us to the grandfather, not allow him to

babysit. But she didn't. And even today, with all that has been said and thrown

into the light of day by me about his abuse, she still talks of him fondly.

Maybe I am the one that is crazy.

>

> Sorry to once again run on so long, I have been feeling extremely nuts lately.

I need therapy and can't afford it I guess. Any light anyone might be able to

shed on this would be very much appreciated.

>

[Guest guest]

((((Joe)))) so sorry for all that you've endured within your FOO. I can only

imagine the helplessness of seeing your past reflected now in the reality of

these children. Is there any way you can intervene or take some action if only

speaking your truth somehow? maybe a direct way to help the children maybe

offering to babysit them sometimes? My nada goes blank too at critical moments

and has huge denial about certain subjects. I think this is the point that is

so hard to accept that they really do have a mental illness, it's not just a

seriously maladaptive personality. The only advice I can give is to remember

that her behavior never ever were about you and say nothing about your value as

a human being.

>

> I havent' been posting in a while because I feel like what I am dealing with

specifically isn't really a good fit for this board right now. But I wanted to

throw this out, just to see if it is anyone else's experience here and how

people think it fits in with BPD. I have been reliving my childhood watching my

mother (not) deal with the borderline (my sister in law) that is living in her

house. I have seen her go more and more into denial, placate the bpd more and

more, refuse to confront her on the cleaning issues, the neglect issues with the

children, etc. She rationalizes, she makes excuses and more and more she

disengages and flat out denies. She is the adult child of a compulsive

gambler/alcoholic/pedophile, her mother died when she was ten.

>

> My mother has a job and is well-liked. She functions in society and no one

would ever call her 'crazy'. She is in no way histrionic, EVER. She is rarely

emotionally demonstrative in a negative way. But she did not protect me from her

father, in fact she packed up both my sister and I and sent us to stay with him

for a week, knowing he would be drunk the whole time and knowing we would be

sleeping in his bed with him (I went one summer and sister went the next, he

lived with his own sister). His sister was aware of the abuse and did not

intervene.

>

> My father was abusive of me also and my mother did not intervene, except when

he physically attacked me, she would get between us. Watching her not protect

these kids (or intervene on their behalf to the mom about cleaning and

supervision, they aren't being beaten or anything) has really put me back in

childhood in an almost paralyzing way. I feel like I am in an abyss, and being

crushed, watching her concede territory daily to this BPD in the household and

actually prop her up. It is like a nightmare because it is living a current

nightmare and going through memories of the past one at the same time. She had

no empathy and would not validate any abuse of me that occurred. If I told her,

like I did after I had my first gynecological appointment, that it was apparent

to the obgyn that I had serious internal scarring, she literally looked down and

did not acknowledge it. She had zero curiosity about what might have happened to

me and when. WHAT KIND OF MOTHER DOES THIS? When my sister and I compared notes

and told her we'd been abused by her father, she dismissed it, continued to

allow him to babysit and visit all the time, and even sent my brother to stay

with him for a week the following summer. She still has his photos up everywhere

and talks about him fondly.

>

> Can anyone relate to this very specific behavior of refusing to protect

children from predators, refusing to validate or acknowledge abuse that has

occurred, refusing to ever give credence to anything an insane person is doing

that points to mental instability? I swear to god, she just 'goes away'. It's

literally like she is no longer in her body. I don't know what to call it other

than a dissociative disorder, denial is not nearly strong enough a word for what

this is. it made me crazy growing up. So many times she 'checked out' when I

needed her in one way or another. She is like a robot going through the motions.

But don't expect her to ever acknowledge ANY abuse that happened or is happening

to you.

>

> Another story from my childhood, actually I was in my teens and visiting my

grandmother (on the other side of the family). My uncle came home with a two

year old girl whose mother he had met on the bus to somewhere, rumors later on

were that a 'trade' had taken place for drugs, I don't know why he had her but

apparently he had a history with the mother. At some point during the visit, she

went up to my grandmother and and said " when X (my uncle) sleeps with me, he

plays with my behind " . NO ONE stepped in to help this child. I don't even

remember when the mother showed up to get her...I remember asking my grandmother

about it, and she got the meanest look on her face when I repeated what the

little girl said, and she said, in a very severe and hateful tone, " Children

LIE. " This is the story of my family. Over and over again it is one story after

another just like this. Stepford mothers who walk around like zombies protecting

themselves from seeing the children in their midst being mistreated. Actually

<<that sentence sums up this whole post. The stepford behavior is literally

making me sick to my stomach lately. What causes this robotic denial? I mean, I

know it is abuse, but if the person is not a histrionic witch or queen, they can

literally go through life with everyone loving them, eating them up, calling

them things like 'sweet and kind' meanwhile they are committing the most hideous

dereliction of duty as a parent, or as a human, the refusal to see abuse right

in front of them, or act in any way to stop it. It's NOT THAT HARD. All my

mother would have had to do was not send us to the grandfather, not allow him to

babysit. But she didn't. And even today, with all that has been said and thrown

into the light of day by me about his abuse, she still talks of him fondly.

Maybe I am the one that is crazy.

>

> Sorry to once again run on so long, I have been feeling extremely nuts lately.

I need therapy and can't afford it I guess. Any light anyone might be able to

shed on this would be very much appreciated.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Joe,

No, you are not the crazy one; not at all.

I've heard of such things before: entire extended families in which sexual abuse

and exploitation of children by related adults and by other related

children/teens is accepted and enabled and hidden from the public generation

after generation. (It also seems to happen in extreme offshoot religious cults

of various denominations among non-biologically related individuals, and has

been called " ritual abuse. " )

Multi-generational/cross-generational bio-familial sexual victimization of

children apparently happens frequently enough that there is even a clinic that

deals with it specifically: The Aetna Foundation's Children's Center's

" Multi-generational Sexual Abuse Family Therapy Program " .

Here is an excerpt from " Helping Abused and Traumatized Children " Integrating

Directive and Non-directive Approaches by Eliana Gil.

Excerpt:

" In-home child sexual abuse tends to occur in families where secrecy contributes

greatly to the establishment and maintenance of dysfunctional family dynamics.

In order for such abuse to occur, as Finkelhor (1984) noted , family

disinhibitors have to be overcome. The person who is abusing a child manages to

secure the child's secrecy; the non-offending parent does not recognize or

respond to cues of family danger, and other family members remain unaware of

what is occurring.... "

Not surprisingly, many parents of abused children have their own painful

histories of childhood abuse. In some families, maltreatment in general or

sexual abuse in particular has actually become " the norm, " due to a lack of

acknowledgment, disclosure, protective intervention or any specific action on

behalf of children by their parents or caretakers. The web spun by denial and

silence can be intense and all-encompassing... "

My own personal opinion is that this must happen when there is a

multi-generational history of psychopathy. It seems to me that the lack of a

conscience (a sense of right and wrong), lack of empathy (the ability to feel

another person's pain), lack of remorse, inability to consider other human

beings anything more than mere objects, and malignant self-absorption (a sense

of entitlement to take or do or say whatever you feel like taking or doing or

saying; that other human beings exist merely for your own use) would lend itself

to such behaviors, meaning that rampant psychopathy is the root cause.

But that's just my own theory, so take it as such and not as the result of a

professional study.

I'm so sorry you and your siblings had to endure such an environment. I wish

that you all could have been removed from such " care " for your own safety. It

seems to me that in spite of your sadly horrific abuse you yourself have no

psychopathic traits, and instead have normal, healthy human empathy, which is

wonderful.

-Annie

>

> I havent' been posting in a while because I feel like what I am dealing with

specifically isn't really a good fit for this board right now. But I wanted to

throw this out, just to see if it is anyone else's experience here and how

people think it fits in with BPD. I have been reliving my childhood watching my

mother (not) deal with the borderline (my sister in law) that is living in her

house. I have seen her go more and more into denial, placate the bpd more and

more, refuse to confront her on the cleaning issues, the neglect issues with the

children, etc. She rationalizes, she makes excuses and more and more she

disengages and flat out denies. She is the adult child of a compulsive

gambler/alcoholic/pedophile, her mother died when she was ten.

>

> My mother has a job and is well-liked. She functions in society and no one

would ever call her 'crazy'. She is in no way histrionic, EVER. She is rarely

emotionally demonstrative in a negative way. But she did not protect me from her

father, in fact she packed up both my sister and I and sent us to stay with him

for a week, knowing he would be drunk the whole time and knowing we would be

sleeping in his bed with him (I went one summer and sister went the next, he

lived with his own sister). His sister was aware of the abuse and did not

intervene.

>

> My father was abusive of me also and my mother did not intervene, except when

he physically attacked me, she would get between us. Watching her not protect

these kids (or intervene on their behalf to the mom about cleaning and

supervision, they aren't being beaten or anything) has really put me back in

childhood in an almost paralyzing way. I feel like I am in an abyss, and being

crushed, watching her concede territory daily to this BPD in the household and

actually prop her up. It is like a nightmare because it is living a current

nightmare and going through memories of the past one at the same time. She had

no empathy and would not validate any abuse of me that occurred. If I told her,

like I did after I had my first gynecological appointment, that it was apparent

to the obgyn that I had serious internal scarring, she literally looked down and

did not acknowledge it. She had zero curiosity about what might have happened to

me and when. WHAT KIND OF MOTHER DOES THIS? When my sister and I compared notes

and told her we'd been abused by her father, she dismissed it, continued to

allow him to babysit and visit all the time, and even sent my brother to stay

with him for a week the following summer. She still has his photos up everywhere

and talks about him fondly.

>

> Can anyone relate to this very specific behavior of refusing to protect

children from predators, refusing to validate or acknowledge abuse that has

occurred, refusing to ever give credence to anything an insane person is doing

that points to mental instability? I swear to god, she just 'goes away'. It's

literally like she is no longer in her body. I don't know what to call it other

than a dissociative disorder, denial is not nearly strong enough a word for what

this is. it made me crazy growing up. So many times she 'checked out' when I

needed her in one way or another. She is like a robot going through the motions.

But don't expect her to ever acknowledge ANY abuse that happened or is happening

to you.

>

> Another story from my childhood, actually I was in my teens and visiting my

grandmother (on the other side of the family). My uncle came home with a two

year old girl whose mother he had met on the bus to somewhere, rumors later on

were that a 'trade' had taken place for drugs, I don't know why he had her but

apparently he had a history with the mother. At some point during the visit, she

went up to my grandmother and and said " when X (my uncle) sleeps with me, he

plays with my behind " . NO ONE stepped in to help this child. I don't even

remember when the mother showed up to get her...I remember asking my grandmother

about it, and she got the meanest look on her face when I repeated what the

little girl said, and she said, in a very severe and hateful tone, " Children

LIE. " This is the story of my family. Over and over again it is one story after

another just like this. Stepford mothers who walk around like zombies protecting

themselves from seeing the children in their midst being mistreated. Actually

<<that sentence sums up this whole post. The stepford behavior is literally

making me sick to my stomach lately. What causes this robotic denial? I mean, I

know it is abuse, but if the person is not a histrionic witch or queen, they can

literally go through life with everyone loving them, eating them up, calling

them things like 'sweet and kind' meanwhile they are committing the most hideous

dereliction of duty as a parent, or as a human, the refusal to see abuse right

in front of them, or act in any way to stop it. It's NOT THAT HARD. All my

mother would have had to do was not send us to the grandfather, not allow him to

babysit. But she didn't. And even today, with all that has been said and thrown

into the light of day by me about his abuse, she still talks of him fondly.

Maybe I am the one that is crazy.

>

> Sorry to once again run on so long, I have been feeling extremely nuts lately.

I need therapy and can't afford it I guess. Any light anyone might be able to

shed on this would be very much appreciated.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Joe,

I can relate very profoundly to much of what you have written in this

post.

First of all,no!,you are not the crazy one.Although having such acute

awareness of such a sordid,sick reality would feel very crazy making.You are

also in a completely invalidating environment.Add rational awareness to complete

invalidation of same and what you get is a psychologically untenable

situation--it's no wonder you feel as if you are in an abyss/living a

nightmare.Any sane individual would have the same reaction: what you have

experienced/are experiencing is dysfunction extrapolated to the extreme of a

black hole that sucks into itself all the light of awareness along with any

sentient being who gets too close to the event horizon.That sense of being

crushed by it isn't insane at all--it's rational and cognitively accurate.

I agree with Annie that " rampant pyschopathy " is likely to be the root

cause of your FOO's inter-generational dysfunction--yet it sounds like what

perpetuates that psychopathy is the denial of its very presence.*Why* would a

mother allow this to be? *How* could a mother's instinct to protect her young to

ensure the survival of the " clan " become inoperative to such a pathological

degree? The following is just my own opinion to take or leave and I hope none of

it offends...

It sounds to me like a lethal combination of conditioning and biology.That

is,apparently your nada was conditioned from infancy not to be able to see

family reality at all.Which is what happened to all of us here on this board,but

it sounds like your nada has over time linked her own psychological survival to

her ability to be blind--her condition of being crippled she now misconstrues as

healthy since it has enabled her to " survive " .Her " worldview " is in objective

fact the inverse of healthy but because it has always been functional to her

survival (in her own mind) it is no longer perceived as blindness but as sight;

no longer perceived as halt but as haleness.And,strange as this sounds having

said that this is what *works* for her,I don't think that it cancels out the

probability of her being miserable at times.Because she would have also been

conditioned to be miserable in order to play her part in the perpetuation of the

sick cycle in the same way that children in healthy families are conditioned to

be happy/to have access to their own vitality in order to perpetuate their

healthy family's *successful* functioning: your nada's misery helps to

perpetuate your FOO's dysfunction.Like,you've said before that your nada will

come to you wanting your commiseration but when you offer it,she later turns on

you and lashes out at you/demonizes you/denies the validity of your

counsel--which I think she does because she has been conditioned to believe that

while it is permissable to gripe and whine (be miserable the way healthy people

are happy),it is not permissable to actually *do* anything to improve the

situation since to do so would be the opposite of continuing to perpetuate it

and since her survival is dysfunctionally linked to perpetuating the FOO

situation itself anyone who would suggest improvement or action must seem like a

threat to the " clan " .

Don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to justify your nada's behavior.What

she is doing is insane.

This kind of insane allowance of extremely dysfunctional inter

generational abuse,when it's the mother who is doing it,also has a biological

basis.Again,it's sick,but think about what a mother's base biological function

is: to pass on her genes; to perpetuate the family line.A mother will invest

more in her offspring who have a chance of survival and most especially in the

offspring who have the best chance of passing on the healthy genes.That is why

say an animal mother would let an unhealthy newborn die rather than take extra

measures to ensure its survival.It would seem that most human communities have

evolved beyond that but there is still a point (that is mainly unconscious)

where base biology and cultural psychology intersect and that is on the level of

survival of the clan.

So talking about inter generationally abusive families,the continuing

survival of the clan requires perpetuating the same kinds of genes that spawned

it in the first place like in the way the rich marry the rich to keep the money

" in the family " .Again,this isn't conscious,but could explain why say a BPD

mother would invest more in enabling the behavior of her dysfunctional offspring

while shunning her healthy children--or invest more in ensuring that her

offspring will manifest her own traits by encouraging dysfunctional behavior and

dismissing healthy behavior.By doing so,she is perpetuating her own genes on a

biological level--of course in reality what she is doing is ensuring the

family's eventual doom,but biologically she is perpetuating the clan *as it is*

so that it will survive.Does that make sense? A mother in an abusive clan has a

biological imperative to reproduce those dysfunctional genes simply because they

are *clan* genes.She will caretake the expression of those genes in her

offspring.

Encouraging dysfunctional behavior in her offspring is a way of allowing

those dysfunction producing genes to express themselves.In a healthy family an

example of this would be an educated mother fully supporting a young son who is

studying medicine so that he can achieve his goal,prosper,and then marry a

similarly educated (like mom) prospering spouse and perpetuate the clan line of

functional prosperity.The mother in that example would feel biologically

repulsed if this son then chose to marry a drug addicted prostitute since that

would undo the perpetuation of the gene line she had nurtured into

expression.Maybe not a great example but I can't think of a better one right

now.

The mother in the dysfunctional family would encourage the expression of

her clan's gene line by allowing her children to be abused because by doing so

she is perpetuating the clan's function,which is to be abusive.I mean,on the

unconscious biological level if the abuse has been inter generational of some

duration and she was herself born in to it,once abuse had already been " set " as

the clan function the family members no longer even perceive it as " abuse " .

In order for her *not* to encourage the genetic expression of clan

dysfunction she would have to be aware herself that the clan itself is sick and

that those sick genes should not be passed on.She would need to feel impelled to

seek out healthy genes for her own offspring and/or to feel impelled to

encourage expression of *healthy* genes in her offspring.

It seems to me that what your nada is doing with your BPD SIL is enabling

her as a carrier of the dysfunctional clan genes,even though she isn't her own

daughter.But by mating with her son she has produced clan members and since she

is herself dysfunctional she is perpetuating the genetic function of the clan

line; she has the " right stuff " genetically for the clan--your SIL has your

nada's biological approval.So she props her up.

Sending you to your grandfather was encouraging expression of the clan

genes--a very sick sort of anti-nurture since the gene expression she was

encouraging was for you to be made sick if you were abused.Because this maternal

biological imperative is unconscious and because your nada isn't psychologically

cognizant of the fact that your FOO is abusive and dysfunctional,her anti

nurture would be perceived by her as " nothing is wrong and all is fine " --she

would not even have been aware of how she was forcefully conditioning you or

forcing expression of " sick genes " .

On a psychological level she was conditioning you to eventually mate with

a similar clan line and to produce offspring that would " fit " with the line and

go on to perpetuate it.Since blindess is an essential component of your FOO's

" functionality " ,when you told her that you could see (and knew exactly what had

been done to you,like telling her about what the OBGYN had said),she literally

looked down/wouldn't even *look* at you.She had zero curiosity because she had

no idea why she behaved as she did,it must be as normal as breathing to her,and

she doesn't realize she is a psychological cripple or as you called her,a

zombie.

I do think that your thread title is very accurate as well: she is very

sick.Because if she had a modicum of actual health,she would also have enough of

an inkling that all of this is so hideously wrong that it would occur to her to

question it.Or your telling her what her father did to you would have woken her

up as a mother.Instead she reflexively sacrifices her own children to the black

hole of her FOO.I think her robotic denial is caused by her own sickness wanting

to perpetuate itself since it is certainly not sound health that she is

encouraging in her children with her denial.It sounds to me that she is able to

function in society because she is ok with how her family functions and how she

functions within it.To you observing her it's clear she " checks out " or becomes

a zombie but to her being a stepford wife with no will of her own is " normal " .

That she keeps photos of her father around the house and speaks of him

fondly shows that she has no conception of him as a predator--and that is the

height of dysfunction since he *is* a predator.It sounds like a general theme in

your FOO on both sides is suppression of any awareness of wrong doing even if

that amounts to a dereliction of duty as parents or even as moral beings--but it

also seems that,to them,even *acknowledging* wrong doing in the FOO is

tantamount to shirking their duty to the clan itself,which is to uphold it as it

is and to perpetuate it as it is.

You're absolutely right: It's not that hard to prevent child abuse.That

is a frustration--and at times rage--that I continue to have about my own

abuse.The dynamics that drove her are different from what happened in your

FOO,but I told my second grade teacher that I was being gang raped and she

laughed at me.ALL she had to do was pick up the effing phone and just call CPS

and let them investigate whether or not my allegations had any merit.One simple

phone call that would have cost her nothing.I had enough physical evidence on me

that day that it would have been obvious I was telling the truth.Her

inaction/ridicule/indiference/rejection that day caused mental health

repurcussions for me that continued *for years* afterward--and also doomed me to

another year and a half of gang rape.

You're not crazy,Joe,to see your FOO situation for what it really is.Being

the lone voice of sanity can *make* you feel crazy,though.Your FOO has its own

enclosed " culture " of severe dysfunction.Your nada's handing you and your sister

over to a pedophile is horrifying.Perhaps your nada does have a dissociative

disorder but if she does,it is co-morbid with some other disorder that has

robbed her of the ability to empathize.I have a dissociative disorder but even

back when I was younger and had not only a total block out on *all* of my

memories before age thirteen but also didn't even believe I *was* ,any

time I heard about child sexual abuse or rape in general I felt very distressed

and very sorry for the victim--and would never ever have dismissed or ignored

someone else's sexual victimization even though I was unable at the time to

think directly about my own.I could still empathize with others who had been

sexually assaulted even though I had dissociated myself from my own experiences.

It sounds like the members of your family should have been made to

stand trial for both their direct perpetration (your grandfather and uncle) as

well as their enabling (your grandmother and mother).There was a case like that

in France over a decade ago now where an entire family was put on trial for

child sexual abuse: grandparents,parents,uncles,cousins.The country was shocked

as it was revealed during the trial how the abuse had just spanned across the

generations--and the family on trial was shocked to find itself in the docket

because they believed that nothing wrong was going on.

I also wish that you could have been rescued from that awful

environment.I'm sorry you're having such a hard time with it right now too.You

*can* get through this--and please don't apologize for the length of a post.This

is the place to vent.

>

> I havent' been posting in a while because I feel like what I am dealing with

specifically isn't really a good fit for this board right now. But I wanted to

throw this out, just to see if it is anyone else's experience here and how

people think it fits in with BPD. I have been reliving my childhood watching my

mother (not) deal with the borderline (my sister in law) that is living in her

house. I have seen her go more and more into denial, placate the bpd more and

more, refuse to confront her on the cleaning issues, the neglect issues with the

children, etc. She rationalizes, she makes excuses and more and more she

disengages and flat out denies. She is the adult child of a compulsive

gambler/alcoholic/pedophile, her mother died when she was ten.

>

> My mother has a job and is well-liked. She functions in society and no one

would ever call her 'crazy'. She is in no way histrionic, EVER. She is rarely

emotionally demonstrative in a negative way. But she did not protect me from her

father, in fact she packed up both my sister and I and sent us to stay with him

for a week, knowing he would be drunk the whole time and knowing we would be

sleeping in his bed with him (I went one summer and sister went the next, he

lived with his own sister). His sister was aware of the abuse and did not

intervene.

>

> My father was abusive of me also and my mother did not intervene, except when

he physically attacked me, she would get between us. Watching her not protect

these kids (or intervene on their behalf to the mom about cleaning and

supervision, they aren't being beaten or anything) has really put me back in

childhood in an almost paralyzing way. I feel like I am in an abyss, and being

crushed, watching her concede territory daily to this BPD in the household and

actually prop her up. It is like a nightmare because it is living a current

nightmare and going through memories of the past one at the same time. She had

no empathy and would not validate any abuse of me that occurred. If I told her,

like I did after I had my first gynecological appointment, that it was apparent

to the obgyn that I had serious internal scarring, she literally looked down and

did not acknowledge it. She had zero curiosity about what might have happened to

me and when. WHAT KIND OF MOTHER DOES THIS? When my sister and I compared notes

and told her we'd been abused by her father, she dismissed it, continued to

allow him to babysit and visit all the time, and even sent my brother to stay

with him for a week the following summer. She still has his photos up everywhere

and talks about him fondly.

>

> Can anyone relate to this very specific behavior of refusing to protect

children from predators, refusing to validate or acknowledge abuse that has

occurred, refusing to ever give credence to anything an insane person is doing

that points to mental instability? I swear to god, she just 'goes away'. It's

literally like she is no longer in her body. I don't know what to call it other

than a dissociative disorder, denial is not nearly strong enough a word for what

this is. it made me crazy growing up. So many times she 'checked out' when I

needed her in one way or another. She is like a robot going through the motions.

But don't expect her to ever acknowledge ANY abuse that happened or is happening

to you.

>

> Another story from my childhood, actually I was in my teens and visiting my

grandmother (on the other side of the family). My uncle came home with a two

year old girl whose mother he had met on the bus to somewhere, rumors later on

were that a 'trade' had taken place for drugs, I don't know why he had her but

apparently he had a history with the mother. At some point during the visit, she

went up to my grandmother and and said " when X (my uncle) sleeps with me, he

plays with my behind " . NO ONE stepped in to help this child. I don't even

remember when the mother showed up to get her...I remember asking my grandmother

about it, and she got the meanest look on her face when I repeated what the

little girl said, and she said, in a very severe and hateful tone, " Children

LIE. " This is the story of my family. Over and over again it is one story after

another just like this. Stepford mothers who walk around like zombies protecting

themselves from seeing the children in their midst being mistreated. Actually

<<that sentence sums up this whole post. The stepford behavior is literally

making me sick to my stomach lately. What causes this robotic denial? I mean, I

know it is abuse, but if the person is not a histrionic witch or queen, they can

literally go through life with everyone loving them, eating them up, calling

them things like 'sweet and kind' meanwhile they are committing the most hideous

dereliction of duty as a parent, or as a human, the refusal to see abuse right

in front of them, or act in any way to stop it. It's NOT THAT HARD. All my

mother would have had to do was not send us to the grandfather, not allow him to

babysit. But she didn't. And even today, with all that has been said and thrown

into the light of day by me about his abuse, she still talks of him fondly.

Maybe I am the one that is crazy.

>

> Sorry to once again run on so long, I have been feeling extremely nuts lately.

I need therapy and can't afford it I guess. Any light anyone might be able to

shed on this would be very much appreciated.

>

[Guest guest]

thanks so much for this very helpful and well thought out post.

It means alot to me that you went to such lengths to break down and analyze my

situation and try to explain my mother's behavior in a way that makes sense.

Because of course, the alternative to it making sense is that there is no need

for explanation and I was abused because I am worthless and expendable.

I am so sorry to hear about what you went through as a child, your recounting

was horrifying to me and the thought that this teacher did nothing is absolutely

unbelievable. I wonder if the teacher is still alive and could be confronted,

because it might be healing if you could confront again, as an adult. I am so

sorry that this happened to you, it is heartbreaking to me that you went through

this.

Thanks also for explaining why I am feeling this maddening feeling. I realized

tonight at work that what I have been feeling lately is not even anger, it is

pure rage. I broke some things the other day. It feels like an incredibly heavy

weight on me, this black rage...it will dissipate and then it will come back

again.

There is more than that too it too. It's realizing that I literally was never

safe as a child. That there were two hard-core pedophiles that were allowed to

babysit me, and two other people that I probably was not safe with and was

mistreated by. I think because I watch the 2 year old every day that I am really

keyed in on how vulnerable this child is, and it's bringing up memories of my

own being this age and being this vulnerable. This child is not being harmed in

this manner, it's just that his mother is bpd and he is already the 'painted

black' child. And it's that my mother has decided the way to deal with the bpd

is to just walk on eggshells around her and never confront them about anything,

ever, and she expects me to do the same thing, and I am pretty devastated at

this sea change because I had encouraged her, as had my brother, to seek therapy

and support and to assert boundaries around cleaning and the children's

supervision. For a year she whined and cried and pretended she would. But I have

slowly watched her do a complete about face and just sink back into complete

passivity, with my father following her. So I have lost all sense of hope about

them reasserting their rights within their home in the midst of having this

extremely low-functioning BPD planted in their living room all day every day.

Thanks for remembering about my mother seeking my counsel and then stabbing me

in the back...I had forgotten I shared about that at length and this is the

exact situation, once again, that I am in. It is unreal to me that I find myself

there again, after all the stupid times I have done this before only to be

betrayed. I put my safety and my record on the line this time, because the SIL

threatened me and I told her to go ahead. I filed a 'communicating threats'

incident report against her and she could find out at any time and retaliate

since it's a matter of public record. (I have been battered in the past and I

promised myself that if those incidences ever arose again in my life I would

involve law enforcement from the beginning, so I am keeping that promise to

myself).

I appreciate your response beyond words, because I know you really understand

what it means to so desperately crave understanding of something like this, and

I really am grateful for the time and thought you put into explaining it. I am

like this as well, I HAVE to break things down to an elemental level to make

sense of them. I believe my mother compartmentalized for the sake of her own

survival, and it might be a knee-jerk thing she can barely control at this

point...but as a child I am feeling this almost murderous rage at having to

watch her do this in this particular situation. I can't thank you enough for the

depth and accuracy of your response to my post.

> >

> > I havent' been posting in a while because I feel like what I am dealing with

specifically isn't really a good fit for this board right now. But I wanted to

throw this out, just to see if it is anyone else's experience here and how

people think it fits in with BPD. I have been reliving my childhood watching my

mother (not) deal with the borderline (my sister in law) that is living in her

house. I have seen her go more and more into denial, placate the bpd more and

more, refuse to confront her on the cleaning issues, the neglect issues with the

children, etc. She rationalizes, she makes excuses and more and more she

disengages and flat out denies. She is the adult child of a compulsive

gambler/alcoholic/pedophile, her mother died when she was ten.

> >

> > My mother has a job and is well-liked. She functions in society and no one

would ever call her 'crazy'. She is in no way histrionic, EVER. She is rarely

emotionally demonstrative in a negative way. But she did not protect me from her

father, in fact she packed up both my sister and I and sent us to stay with him

for a week, knowing he would be drunk the whole time and knowing we would be

sleeping in his bed with him (I went one summer and sister went the next, he

lived with his own sister). His sister was aware of the abuse and did not

intervene.

> >

> > My father was abusive of me also and my mother did not intervene, except

when he physically attacked me, she would get between us. Watching her not

protect these kids (or intervene on their behalf to the mom about cleaning and

supervision, they aren't being beaten or anything) has really put me back in

childhood in an almost paralyzing way. I feel like I am in an abyss, and being

crushed, watching her concede territory daily to this BPD in the household and

actually prop her up. It is like a nightmare because it is living a current

nightmare and going through memories of the past one at the same time. She had

no empathy and would not validate any abuse of me that occurred. If I told her,

like I did after I had my first gynecological appointment, that it was apparent

to the obgyn that I had serious internal scarring, she literally looked down and

did not acknowledge it. She had zero curiosity about what might have happened to

me and when. WHAT KIND OF MOTHER DOES THIS? When my sister and I compared notes

and told her we'd been abused by her father, she dismissed it, continued to

allow him to babysit and visit all the time, and even sent my brother to stay

with him for a week the following summer. She still has his photos up everywhere

and talks about him fondly.

> >

> > Can anyone relate to this very specific behavior of refusing to protect

children from predators, refusing to validate or acknowledge abuse that has

occurred, refusing to ever give credence to anything an insane person is doing

that points to mental instability? I swear to god, she just 'goes away'. It's

literally like she is no longer in her body. I don't know what to call it other

than a dissociative disorder, denial is not nearly strong enough a word for what

this is. it made me crazy growing up. So many times she 'checked out' when I

needed her in one way or another. She is like a robot going through the motions.

But don't expect her to ever acknowledge ANY abuse that happened or is happening

to you.

> >

> > Another story from my childhood, actually I was in my teens and visiting my

grandmother (on the other side of the family). My uncle came home with a two

year old girl whose mother he had met on the bus to somewhere, rumors later on

were that a 'trade' had taken place for drugs, I don't know why he had her but

apparently he had a history with the mother. At some point during the visit, she

went up to my grandmother and and said " when X (my uncle) sleeps with me, he

plays with my behind " . NO ONE stepped in to help this child. I don't even

remember when the mother showed up to get her...I remember asking my grandmother

about it, and she got the meanest look on her face when I repeated what the

little girl said, and she said, in a very severe and hateful tone, " Children

LIE. " This is the story of my family. Over and over again it is one story after

another just like this. Stepford mothers who walk around like zombies protecting

themselves from seeing the children in their midst being mistreated. Actually

<<that sentence sums up this whole post. The stepford behavior is literally

making me sick to my stomach lately. What causes this robotic denial? I mean, I

know it is abuse, but if the person is not a histrionic witch or queen, they can

literally go through life with everyone loving them, eating them up, calling

them things like 'sweet and kind' meanwhile they are committing the most hideous

dereliction of duty as a parent, or as a human, the refusal to see abuse right

in front of them, or act in any way to stop it. It's NOT THAT HARD. All my

mother would have had to do was not send us to the grandfather, not allow him to

babysit. But she didn't. And even today, with all that has been said and thrown

into the light of day by me about his abuse, she still talks of him fondly.

Maybe I am the one that is crazy.

> >

> > Sorry to once again run on so long, I have been feeling extremely nuts

lately. I need therapy and can't afford it I guess. Any light anyone might be

able to shed on this would be very much appreciated.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Joe,I know that for me feeling like I was raped because I must be worthless and

expendable is something I have struggled with.But that cannot possibly be true

for either of us,you know.We were *children*.

I can appreciate how all of what you are experiencing right

now,remembering,and going through would cause a huge black rage.When it first

really truly hit me just how vulnerable and helpless I was as a child (two years

ago,more or less),I felt that murderous rage.It's understandable.I've noticed in

general if I have to deal too long with extremely destructive,pointlessly

destructive,PD people with no recourse to ameliorating their negativity and

wholly needless destructiveness,I start to feel VERY enraged.Even more so if I

did try to find a workable solution and was strung along by them.The last time

that happened was with a coworker (while I was in the phase of having the full

reality of my abuse really hitting me) and there were many days I couldn't even

look at her without just wanting to strangle her.It was like all the

righteous,natural pure rage I needed to be able to express over my abuse as a

child came boiling up as it would have been when the abuse actually

happened,triggered by a person and a situation that was so damned evocative of

my abuse that I could practically feel it/re-experience it all over again.

Plus PD people are just incredibly ANNOYING anyway!

I'm so glad my post was helpful to you.You're going to make it through this.

>

>

> thanks so much for this very helpful and well thought out post.

>

> It means alot to me that you went to such lengths to break down and analyze my

situation and try to explain my mother's behavior in a way that makes sense.

Because of course, the alternative to it making sense is that there is no need

for explanation and I was abused because I am worthless and expendable.

>

> I am so sorry to hear about what you went through as a child, your recounting

was horrifying to me and the thought that this teacher did nothing is absolutely

unbelievable. I wonder if the teacher is still alive and could be confronted,

because it might be healing if you could confront again, as an adult. I am so

sorry that this happened to you, it is heartbreaking to me that you went through

this.

>

> Thanks also for explaining why I am feeling this maddening feeling. I realized

tonight at work that what I have been feeling lately is not even anger, it is

pure rage. I broke some things the other day. It feels like an incredibly heavy

weight on me, this black rage...it will dissipate and then it will come back

again.

>

> There is more than that too it too. It's realizing that I literally was never

safe as a child. That there were two hard-core pedophiles that were allowed to

babysit me, and two other people that I probably was not safe with and was

mistreated by. I think because I watch the 2 year old every day that I am really

keyed in on how vulnerable this child is, and it's bringing up memories of my

own being this age and being this vulnerable. This child is not being harmed in

this manner, it's just that his mother is bpd and he is already the 'painted

black' child. And it's that my mother has decided the way to deal with the bpd

is to just walk on eggshells around her and never confront them about anything,

ever, and she expects me to do the same thing, and I am pretty devastated at

this sea change because I had encouraged her, as had my brother, to seek therapy

and support and to assert boundaries around cleaning and the children's

supervision. For a year she whined and cried and pretended she would. But I have

slowly watched her do a complete about face and just sink back into complete

passivity, with my father following her. So I have lost all sense of hope about

them reasserting their rights within their home in the midst of having this

extremely low-functioning BPD planted in their living room all day every day.

>

> Thanks for remembering about my mother seeking my counsel and then stabbing me

in the back...I had forgotten I shared about that at length and this is the

exact situation, once again, that I am in. It is unreal to me that I find myself

there again, after all the stupid times I have done this before only to be

betrayed. I put my safety and my record on the line this time, because the SIL

threatened me and I told her to go ahead. I filed a 'communicating threats'

incident report against her and she could find out at any time and retaliate

since it's a matter of public record. (I have been battered in the past and I

promised myself that if those incidences ever arose again in my life I would

involve law enforcement from the beginning, so I am keeping that promise to

myself).

>

> I appreciate your response beyond words, because I know you really understand

what it means to so desperately crave understanding of something like this, and

I really am grateful for the time and thought you put into explaining it. I am

like this as well, I HAVE to break things down to an elemental level to make

sense of them. I believe my mother compartmentalized for the sake of her own

survival, and it might be a knee-jerk thing she can barely control at this

point...but as a child I am feeling this almost murderous rage at having to

watch her do this in this particular situation. I can't thank you enough for the

depth and accuracy of your response to my post.

[Guest guest]

I am so sorry for all of you. It's been said 1,000 times before, but it still

stands true: It's amazing that any of us are still standing!

" Again,this isn't conscious,but could explain why say a BPD

mother would invest more in enabling the behavior of her dysfunctional offspring

while shunning her healthy children--or invest more in ensuring that her

offspring will manifest her own traits by encouraging dysfunctional behavior and

dismissing healthy behavior "

Wow-this totally hit me in the face. Nada has always HATED me and ADORES my

weirdo sis and supports her in any freaky, dangerous, or anti-social thing she

does.

Thank you for your whole post. It clarifies so much of what we all went thru.

In the last 3 days, I have been pondering my own " abuse " altho it is very minor.

There is a weird spin on it that I can't seem to wrap my brain around...

Nada hired a 14 year old male babysitter. He was AWESOME. He played games, ran

around with us, was kind, and funny. I felt very safe with him and we loved it

when he got to babysit us. One day, when I was about 6-8 yo (I may have been as

young as 5?), Nada was getting ready to go out. The routine was that I would get

completely ready for bed before she left. I came out of my room in my long

winter nightgown. Nada told me to go change because " I don't want to find the

two of you making out on the couch when I get home. "

I immediately felt sick to my stomach. I felt dirty and ashamed. She seemed to

think I was trying to seduce him?

The weirdest part is next. She didn't invite him back after that night and

instead hired another male babysitter from across the street. This creep used to

put us to bed, then come to get me when my little sis fell asleep. He would lead

me out to the living room and he would lie on the couch. He would put me sitting

on his chest, and make me place my hand over his pants and force me to move my

hand(with his hand over mine) while he while he watched TV. He would do this

till he saw the lights of Nada's car pull in.

To me, there seems to be some kind of " knowing " on Nada's part. I KNOW she

didn't KNOW flat out, but she got rid of the good guy and hired a pervert...and

in my mind, it seems almost....intentional...

> >

> > I havent' been posting in a while because I feel like what I am dealing with

specifically isn't really a good fit for this board right now. But I wanted to

throw this out, just to see if it is anyone else's experience here and how

people think it fits in with BPD. I have been reliving my childhood watching my

mother (not) deal with the borderline (my sister in law) that is living in her

house. I have seen her go more and more into denial, placate the bpd more and

more, refuse to confront her on the cleaning issues, the neglect issues with the

children, etc. She rationalizes, she makes excuses and more and more she

disengages and flat out denies. She is the adult child of a compulsive

gambler/alcoholic/pedophile, her mother died when she was ten.

> >

> > My mother has a job and is well-liked. She functions in society and no one

would ever call her 'crazy'. She is in no way histrionic, EVER. She is rarely

emotionally demonstrative in a negative way. But she did not protect me from her

father, in fact she packed up both my sister and I and sent us to stay with him

for a week, knowing he would be drunk the whole time and knowing we would be

sleeping in his bed with him (I went one summer and sister went the next, he

lived with his own sister). His sister was aware of the abuse and did not

intervene.

> >

> > My father was abusive of me also and my mother did not intervene, except

when he physically attacked me, she would get between us. Watching her not

protect these kids (or intervene on their behalf to the mom about cleaning and

supervision, they aren't being beaten or anything) has really put me back in

childhood in an almost paralyzing way. I feel like I am in an abyss, and being

crushed, watching her concede territory daily to this BPD in the household and

actually prop her up. It is like a nightmare because it is living a current

nightmare and going through memories of the past one at the same time. She had

no empathy and would not validate any abuse of me that occurred. If I told her,

like I did after I had my first gynecological appointment, that it was apparent

to the obgyn that I had serious internal scarring, she literally looked down and

did not acknowledge it. She had zero curiosity about what might have happened to

me and when. WHAT KIND OF MOTHER DOES THIS? When my sister and I compared notes

and told her we'd been abused by her father, she dismissed it, continued to

allow him to babysit and visit all the time, and even sent my brother to stay

with him for a week the following summer. She still has his photos up everywhere

and talks about him fondly.

> >

> > Can anyone relate to this very specific behavior of refusing to protect

children from predators, refusing to validate or acknowledge abuse that has

occurred, refusing to ever give credence to anything an insane person is doing

that points to mental instability? I swear to god, she just 'goes away'. It's

literally like she is no longer in her body. I don't know what to call it other

than a dissociative disorder, denial is not nearly strong enough a word for what

this is. it made me crazy growing up. So many times she 'checked out' when I

needed her in one way or another. She is like a robot going through the motions.

But don't expect her to ever acknowledge ANY abuse that happened or is happening

to you.

> >

> > Another story from my childhood, actually I was in my teens and visiting my

grandmother (on the other side of the family). My uncle came home with a two

year old girl whose mother he had met on the bus to somewhere, rumors later on

were that a 'trade' had taken place for drugs, I don't know why he had her but

apparently he had a history with the mother. At some point during the visit, she

went up to my grandmother and and said " when X (my uncle) sleeps with me, he

plays with my behind " . NO ONE stepped in to help this child. I don't even

remember when the mother showed up to get her...I remember asking my grandmother

about it, and she got the meanest look on her face when I repeated what the

little girl said, and she said, in a very severe and hateful tone, " Children

LIE. " This is the story of my family. Over and over again it is one story after

another just like this. Stepford mothers who walk around like zombies protecting

themselves from seeing the children in their midst being mistreated. Actually

<<that sentence sums up this whole post. The stepford behavior is literally

making me sick to my stomach lately. What causes this robotic denial? I mean, I

know it is abuse, but if the person is not a histrionic witch or queen, they can

literally go through life with everyone loving them, eating them up, calling

them things like 'sweet and kind' meanwhile they are committing the most hideous

dereliction of duty as a parent, or as a human, the refusal to see abuse right

in front of them, or act in any way to stop it. It's NOT THAT HARD. All my

mother would have had to do was not send us to the grandfather, not allow him to

babysit. But she didn't. And even today, with all that has been said and thrown

into the light of day by me about his abuse, she still talks of him fondly.

Maybe I am the one that is crazy.

> >

> > Sorry to once again run on so long, I have been feeling extremely nuts

lately. I need therapy and can't afford it I guess. Any light anyone might be

able to shed on this would be very much appreciated.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I am so sorry for all of you. It's been said 1,000 times before, but it still

stands true: It's amazing that any of us are still standing!

" Again,this isn't conscious,but could explain why say a BPD

mother would invest more in enabling the behavior of her dysfunctional offspring

while shunning her healthy children--or invest more in ensuring that her

offspring will manifest her own traits by encouraging dysfunctional behavior and

dismissing healthy behavior "

Wow-this totally hit me in the face. Nada has always HATED me and ADORES my

weirdo sis and supports her in any freaky, dangerous, or anti-social thing she

does.

Thank you for your whole post. It clarifies so much of what we all went thru.

In the last 3 days, I have been pondering my own " abuse " altho it is very minor.

There is a weird spin on it that I can't seem to wrap my brain around...

Nada hired a 14 year old male babysitter. He was AWESOME. He played games, ran

around with us, was kind, and funny. I felt very safe with him and we loved it

when he got to babysit us. One day, when I was about 6-8 yo (I may have been as

young as 5?), Nada was getting ready to go out. The routine was that I would get

completely ready for bed before she left. I came out of my room in my long

winter nightgown. Nada told me to go change because " I don't want to find the

two of you making out on the couch when I get home. "

I immediately felt sick to my stomach. I felt dirty and ashamed. She seemed to

think I was trying to seduce him?

The weirdest part is next. She didn't invite him back after that night and

instead hired another male babysitter from across the street. This creep used to

put us to bed, then come to get me when my little sis fell asleep. He would lead

me out to the living room and he would lie on the couch. He would put me sitting

on his chest, and make me place my hand over his pants and force me to move my

hand(with his hand over mine) while he while he watched TV. He would do this

till he saw the lights of Nada's car pull in.

To me, there seems to be some kind of " knowing " on Nada's part. I KNOW she

didn't KNOW flat out, but she got rid of the good guy and hired a pervert...and

in my mind, it seems almost....intentional...

> >

> > I havent' been posting in a while because I feel like what I am dealing with

specifically isn't really a good fit for this board right now. But I wanted to

throw this out, just to see if it is anyone else's experience here and how

people think it fits in with BPD. I have been reliving my childhood watching my

mother (not) deal with the borderline (my sister in law) that is living in her

house. I have seen her go more and more into denial, placate the bpd more and

more, refuse to confront her on the cleaning issues, the neglect issues with the

children, etc. She rationalizes, she makes excuses and more and more she

disengages and flat out denies. She is the adult child of a compulsive

gambler/alcoholic/pedophile, her mother died when she was ten.

> >

> > My mother has a job and is well-liked. She functions in society and no one

would ever call her 'crazy'. She is in no way histrionic, EVER. She is rarely

emotionally demonstrative in a negative way. But she did not protect me from her

father, in fact she packed up both my sister and I and sent us to stay with him

for a week, knowing he would be drunk the whole time and knowing we would be

sleeping in his bed with him (I went one summer and sister went the next, he

lived with his own sister). His sister was aware of the abuse and did not

intervene.

> >

> > My father was abusive of me also and my mother did not intervene, except

when he physically attacked me, she would get between us. Watching her not

protect these kids (or intervene on their behalf to the mom about cleaning and

supervision, they aren't being beaten or anything) has really put me back in

childhood in an almost paralyzing way. I feel like I am in an abyss, and being

crushed, watching her concede territory daily to this BPD in the household and

actually prop her up. It is like a nightmare because it is living a current

nightmare and going through memories of the past one at the same time. She had

no empathy and would not validate any abuse of me that occurred. If I told her,

like I did after I had my first gynecological appointment, that it was apparent

to the obgyn that I had serious internal scarring, she literally looked down and

did not acknowledge it. She had zero curiosity about what might have happened to

me and when. WHAT KIND OF MOTHER DOES THIS? When my sister and I compared notes

and told her we'd been abused by her father, she dismissed it, continued to

allow him to babysit and visit all the time, and even sent my brother to stay

with him for a week the following summer. She still has his photos up everywhere

and talks about him fondly.

> >

> > Can anyone relate to this very specific behavior of refusing to protect

children from predators, refusing to validate or acknowledge abuse that has

occurred, refusing to ever give credence to anything an insane person is doing

that points to mental instability? I swear to god, she just 'goes away'. It's

literally like she is no longer in her body. I don't know what to call it other

than a dissociative disorder, denial is not nearly strong enough a word for what

this is. it made me crazy growing up. So many times she 'checked out' when I

needed her in one way or another. She is like a robot going through the motions.

But don't expect her to ever acknowledge ANY abuse that happened or is happening

to you.

> >

> > Another story from my childhood, actually I was in my teens and visiting my

grandmother (on the other side of the family). My uncle came home with a two

year old girl whose mother he had met on the bus to somewhere, rumors later on

were that a 'trade' had taken place for drugs, I don't know why he had her but

apparently he had a history with the mother. At some point during the visit, she

went up to my grandmother and and said " when X (my uncle) sleeps with me, he

plays with my behind " . NO ONE stepped in to help this child. I don't even

remember when the mother showed up to get her...I remember asking my grandmother

about it, and she got the meanest look on her face when I repeated what the

little girl said, and she said, in a very severe and hateful tone, " Children

LIE. " This is the story of my family. Over and over again it is one story after

another just like this. Stepford mothers who walk around like zombies protecting

themselves from seeing the children in their midst being mistreated. Actually

<<that sentence sums up this whole post. The stepford behavior is literally

making me sick to my stomach lately. What causes this robotic denial? I mean, I

know it is abuse, but if the person is not a histrionic witch or queen, they can

literally go through life with everyone loving them, eating them up, calling

them things like 'sweet and kind' meanwhile they are committing the most hideous

dereliction of duty as a parent, or as a human, the refusal to see abuse right

in front of them, or act in any way to stop it. It's NOT THAT HARD. All my

mother would have had to do was not send us to the grandfather, not allow him to

babysit. But she didn't. And even today, with all that has been said and thrown

into the light of day by me about his abuse, she still talks of him fondly.

Maybe I am the one that is crazy.

> >

> > Sorry to once again run on so long, I have been feeling extremely nuts

lately. I need therapy and can't afford it I guess. Any light anyone might be

able to shed on this would be very much appreciated.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

These behaviors of deliberately exposing their own child to dangerous people and

dangerous situations does seem so foreign to normal sensibilities as to be

incomprehensible.

Could it be a form of Munchausen's-by-Proxy? The nada *wants* her child to be

injured so that nada gets to play nurse and receive sympathy and attention

from... whoever (the medical community, the police, the justice system?)

Or maybe nada feels flawed/degraded/worthless because she committed sexual

indiscretions herself, or experienced sexual abuse herself, and resents her

child being " pure " because in nada's mind that creates an inequality: her child

is " better " than nada. Nada needs to feel superior to her child or at least

equal, so, she sets it up for her child to be sexually exploited and " degraded "

too.

Whatever the reason, its a total perversion and inversion of the mothering

instinct to *protect* one's child from harm and I just can't wrap my brain

around this. Its inhuman.

-Annie

> > >

> > > I havent' been posting in a while because I feel like what I am dealing

with specifically isn't really a good fit for this board right now. But I wanted

to throw this out, just to see if it is anyone else's experience here and how

people think it fits in with BPD. I have been reliving my childhood watching my

mother (not) deal with the borderline (my sister in law) that is living in her

house. I have seen her go more and more into denial, placate the bpd more and

more, refuse to confront her on the cleaning issues, the neglect issues with the

children, etc. She rationalizes, she makes excuses and more and more she

disengages and flat out denies. She is the adult child of a compulsive

gambler/alcoholic/pedophile, her mother died when she was ten.

> > >

> > > My mother has a job and is well-liked. She functions in society and no one

would ever call her 'crazy'. She is in no way histrionic, EVER. She is rarely

emotionally demonstrative in a negative way. But she did not protect me from her

father, in fact she packed up both my sister and I and sent us to stay with him

for a week, knowing he would be drunk the whole time and knowing we would be

sleeping in his bed with him (I went one summer and sister went the next, he

lived with his own sister). His sister was aware of the abuse and did not

intervene.

> > >

> > > My father was abusive of me also and my mother did not intervene, except

when he physically attacked me, she would get between us. Watching her not

protect these kids (or intervene on their behalf to the mom about cleaning and

supervision, they aren't being beaten or anything) has really put me back in

childhood in an almost paralyzing way. I feel like I am in an abyss, and being

crushed, watching her concede territory daily to this BPD in the household and

actually prop her up. It is like a nightmare because it is living a current

nightmare and going through memories of the past one at the same time. She had

no empathy and would not validate any abuse of me that occurred. If I told her,

like I did after I had my first gynecological appointment, that it was apparent

to the obgyn that I had serious internal scarring, she literally looked down and

did not acknowledge it. She had zero curiosity about what might have happened to

me and when. WHAT KIND OF MOTHER DOES THIS? When my sister and I compared notes

and told her we'd been abused by her father, she dismissed it, continued to

allow him to babysit and visit all the time, and even sent my brother to stay

with him for a week the following summer. She still has his photos up everywhere

and talks about him fondly.

> > >

> > > Can anyone relate to this very specific behavior of refusing to protect

children from predators, refusing to validate or acknowledge abuse that has

occurred, refusing to ever give credence to anything an insane person is doing

that points to mental instability? I swear to god, she just 'goes away'. It's

literally like she is no longer in her body. I don't know what to call it other

than a dissociative disorder, denial is not nearly strong enough a word for what

this is. it made me crazy growing up. So many times she 'checked out' when I

needed her in one way or another. She is like a robot going through the motions.

But don't expect her to ever acknowledge ANY abuse that happened or is happening

to you.

> > >

> > > Another story from my childhood, actually I was in my teens and visiting

my grandmother (on the other side of the family). My uncle came home with a two

year old girl whose mother he had met on the bus to somewhere, rumors later on

were that a 'trade' had taken place for drugs, I don't know why he had her but

apparently he had a history with the mother. At some point during the visit, she

went up to my grandmother and and said " when X (my uncle) sleeps with me, he

plays with my behind " . NO ONE stepped in to help this child. I don't even

remember when the mother showed up to get her...I remember asking my grandmother

about it, and she got the meanest look on her face when I repeated what the

little girl said, and she said, in a very severe and hateful tone, " Children

LIE. " This is the story of my family. Over and over again it is one story after

another just like this. Stepford mothers who walk around like zombies protecting

themselves from seeing the children in their midst being mistreated. Actually

<<that sentence sums up this whole post. The stepford behavior is literally

making me sick to my stomach lately. What causes this robotic denial? I mean, I

know it is abuse, but if the person is not a histrionic witch or queen, they can

literally go through life with everyone loving them, eating them up, calling

them things like 'sweet and kind' meanwhile they are committing the most hideous

dereliction of duty as a parent, or as a human, the refusal to see abuse right

in front of them, or act in any way to stop it. It's NOT THAT HARD. All my

mother would have had to do was not send us to the grandfather, not allow him to

babysit. But she didn't. And even today, with all that has been said and thrown

into the light of day by me about his abuse, she still talks of him fondly.

Maybe I am the one that is crazy.

> > >

> > > Sorry to once again run on so long, I have been feeling extremely nuts

lately. I need therapy and can't afford it I guess. Any light anyone might be

able to shed on this would be very much appreciated.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

These behaviors of deliberately exposing their own child to dangerous people and

dangerous situations does seem so foreign to normal sensibilities as to be

incomprehensible.

Could it be a form of Munchausen's-by-Proxy? The nada *wants* her child to be

injured so that nada gets to play nurse and receive sympathy and attention

from... whoever (the medical community, the police, the justice system?)

Or maybe nada feels flawed/degraded/worthless because she committed sexual

indiscretions herself, or experienced sexual abuse herself, and resents her

child being " pure " because in nada's mind that creates an inequality: her child

is " better " than nada. Nada needs to feel superior to her child or at least

equal, so, she sets it up for her child to be sexually exploited and " degraded "

too.

Whatever the reason, its a total perversion and inversion of the mothering

instinct to *protect* one's child from harm and I just can't wrap my brain

around this. Its inhuman.

-Annie

> > >

> > > I havent' been posting in a while because I feel like what I am dealing

with specifically isn't really a good fit for this board right now. But I wanted

to throw this out, just to see if it is anyone else's experience here and how

people think it fits in with BPD. I have been reliving my childhood watching my

mother (not) deal with the borderline (my sister in law) that is living in her

house. I have seen her go more and more into denial, placate the bpd more and

more, refuse to confront her on the cleaning issues, the neglect issues with the

children, etc. She rationalizes, she makes excuses and more and more she

disengages and flat out denies. She is the adult child of a compulsive

gambler/alcoholic/pedophile, her mother died when she was ten.

> > >

> > > My mother has a job and is well-liked. She functions in society and no one

would ever call her 'crazy'. She is in no way histrionic, EVER. She is rarely

emotionally demonstrative in a negative way. But she did not protect me from her

father, in fact she packed up both my sister and I and sent us to stay with him

for a week, knowing he would be drunk the whole time and knowing we would be

sleeping in his bed with him (I went one summer and sister went the next, he

lived with his own sister). His sister was aware of the abuse and did not

intervene.

> > >

> > > My father was abusive of me also and my mother did not intervene, except

when he physically attacked me, she would get between us. Watching her not

protect these kids (or intervene on their behalf to the mom about cleaning and

supervision, they aren't being beaten or anything) has really put me back in

childhood in an almost paralyzing way. I feel like I am in an abyss, and being

crushed, watching her concede territory daily to this BPD in the household and

actually prop her up. It is like a nightmare because it is living a current

nightmare and going through memories of the past one at the same time. She had

no empathy and would not validate any abuse of me that occurred. If I told her,

like I did after I had my first gynecological appointment, that it was apparent

to the obgyn that I had serious internal scarring, she literally looked down and

did not acknowledge it. She had zero curiosity about what might have happened to

me and when. WHAT KIND OF MOTHER DOES THIS? When my sister and I compared notes

and told her we'd been abused by her father, she dismissed it, continued to

allow him to babysit and visit all the time, and even sent my brother to stay

with him for a week the following summer. She still has his photos up everywhere

and talks about him fondly.

> > >

> > > Can anyone relate to this very specific behavior of refusing to protect

children from predators, refusing to validate or acknowledge abuse that has

occurred, refusing to ever give credence to anything an insane person is doing

that points to mental instability? I swear to god, she just 'goes away'. It's

literally like she is no longer in her body. I don't know what to call it other

than a dissociative disorder, denial is not nearly strong enough a word for what

this is. it made me crazy growing up. So many times she 'checked out' when I

needed her in one way or another. She is like a robot going through the motions.

But don't expect her to ever acknowledge ANY abuse that happened or is happening

to you.

> > >

> > > Another story from my childhood, actually I was in my teens and visiting

my grandmother (on the other side of the family). My uncle came home with a two

year old girl whose mother he had met on the bus to somewhere, rumors later on

were that a 'trade' had taken place for drugs, I don't know why he had her but

apparently he had a history with the mother. At some point during the visit, she

went up to my grandmother and and said " when X (my uncle) sleeps with me, he

plays with my behind " . NO ONE stepped in to help this child. I don't even

remember when the mother showed up to get her...I remember asking my grandmother

about it, and she got the meanest look on her face when I repeated what the

little girl said, and she said, in a very severe and hateful tone, " Children

LIE. " This is the story of my family. Over and over again it is one story after

another just like this. Stepford mothers who walk around like zombies protecting

themselves from seeing the children in their midst being mistreated. Actually

<<that sentence sums up this whole post. The stepford behavior is literally

making me sick to my stomach lately. What causes this robotic denial? I mean, I

know it is abuse, but if the person is not a histrionic witch or queen, they can

literally go through life with everyone loving them, eating them up, calling

them things like 'sweet and kind' meanwhile they are committing the most hideous

dereliction of duty as a parent, or as a human, the refusal to see abuse right

in front of them, or act in any way to stop it. It's NOT THAT HARD. All my

mother would have had to do was not send us to the grandfather, not allow him to

babysit. But she didn't. And even today, with all that has been said and thrown

into the light of day by me about his abuse, she still talks of him fondly.

Maybe I am the one that is crazy.

> > >

> > > Sorry to once again run on so long, I have been feeling extremely nuts

lately. I need therapy and can't afford it I guess. Any light anyone might be

able to shed on this would be very much appreciated.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

What a great discussion that given me so much help! I am so sorry for the horror

you and experienced. I have a picture that helps me. I am running

around screaming Please help me! You've got to help me! OMG! And everyone is on

the floor sleeping, completely unconscious. No one except me gets the

emergency!

Isn't that our horror?; no one sees,hears,acknowledges or reacts to our

emergency.

I am completely by myself.

My nada was a raging alcoholic but only in the house. My role in the family

was scapegoat and truthsayer. No one in a dysfunctional family tolerates the

truth. The Chinese have a saying. " Its the quacking duck who gets shot. "

I think 's social anthropology was terrifically enlightening. It is so

good to utilize other forum members learned perspectives. I never would have

gained such a distant educated insight. I am so enmeshed. Even though I have

been nc and across the continent for most of my life.

Annie's BPD adult feeling threatened by and therefore leveling one of her

children has been played outin my life by both my parents. I think it could

happen to the alternative spouse also.

Sue

[Guest guest]

I find that whole scenario very strange.

That is talking about leaving young female children with a teenage male. I have

only in the last few years thanks to gross out movies that have become so

popular even become acquainted with the fact that many teenage males sexualize

EVERYTHING, even food, animals, furniture, etc. So it may sound incredibly

sexist but it is literally INSANE in my book deliberately seek out pubescent

male babysitters for female children. It's like pouring gasoline on a fire. I

have a friend who was raped by her sixteen year old brother as a five year old,

and she had to have surgery to repair damage to her kidneys. I think you are

right in suspecting that there was deliberate sickness on your mother's part.

> > >

> > > I havent' been posting in a while because I feel like what I am dealing

with specifically isn't really a good fit for this board right now. But I wanted

to throw this out, just to see if it is anyone else's experience here and how

people think it fits in with BPD. I have been reliving my childhood watching my

mother (not) deal with the borderline (my sister in law) that is living in her

house. I have seen her go more and more into denial, placate the bpd more and

more, refuse to confront her on the cleaning issues, the neglect issues with the

children, etc. She rationalizes, she makes excuses and more and more she

disengages and flat out denies. She is the adult child of a compulsive

gambler/alcoholic/pedophile, her mother died when she was ten.

> > >

> > > My mother has a job and is well-liked. She functions in society and no one

would ever call her 'crazy'. She is in no way histrionic, EVER. She is rarely

emotionally demonstrative in a negative way. But she did not protect me from her

father, in fact she packed up both my sister and I and sent us to stay with him

for a week, knowing he would be drunk the whole time and knowing we would be

sleeping in his bed with him (I went one summer and sister went the next, he

lived with his own sister). His sister was aware of the abuse and did not

intervene.

> > >

> > > My father was abusive of me also and my mother did not intervene, except

when he physically attacked me, she would get between us. Watching her not

protect these kids (or intervene on their behalf to the mom about cleaning and

supervision, they aren't being beaten or anything) has really put me back in

childhood in an almost paralyzing way. I feel like I am in an abyss, and being

crushed, watching her concede territory daily to this BPD in the household and

actually prop her up. It is like a nightmare because it is living a current

nightmare and going through memories of the past one at the same time. She had

no empathy and would not validate any abuse of me that occurred. If I told her,

like I did after I had my first gynecological appointment, that it was apparent

to the obgyn that I had serious internal scarring, she literally looked down and

did not acknowledge it. She had zero curiosity about what might have happened to

me and when. WHAT KIND OF MOTHER DOES THIS? When my sister and I compared notes

and told her we'd been abused by her father, she dismissed it, continued to

allow him to babysit and visit all the time, and even sent my brother to stay

with him for a week the following summer. She still has his photos up everywhere

and talks about him fondly.

> > >

> > > Can anyone relate to this very specific behavior of refusing to protect

children from predators, refusing to validate or acknowledge abuse that has

occurred, refusing to ever give credence to anything an insane person is doing

that points to mental instability? I swear to god, she just 'goes away'. It's

literally like she is no longer in her body. I don't know what to call it other

than a dissociative disorder, denial is not nearly strong enough a word for what

this is. it made me crazy growing up. So many times she 'checked out' when I

needed her in one way or another. She is like a robot going through the motions.

But don't expect her to ever acknowledge ANY abuse that happened or is happening

to you.

> > >

> > > Another story from my childhood, actually I was in my teens and visiting

my grandmother (on the other side of the family). My uncle came home with a two

year old girl whose mother he had met on the bus to somewhere, rumors later on

were that a 'trade' had taken place for drugs, I don't know why he had her but

apparently he had a history with the mother. At some point during the visit, she

went up to my grandmother and and said " when X (my uncle) sleeps with me, he

plays with my behind " . NO ONE stepped in to help this child. I don't even

remember when the mother showed up to get her...I remember asking my grandmother

about it, and she got the meanest look on her face when I repeated what the

little girl said, and she said, in a very severe and hateful tone, " Children

LIE. " This is the story of my family. Over and over again it is one story after

another just like this. Stepford mothers who walk around like zombies protecting

themselves from seeing the children in their midst being mistreated. Actually

<<that sentence sums up this whole post. The stepford behavior is literally

making me sick to my stomach lately. What causes this robotic denial? I mean, I

know it is abuse, but if the person is not a histrionic witch or queen, they can

literally go through life with everyone loving them, eating them up, calling

them things like 'sweet and kind' meanwhile they are committing the most hideous

dereliction of duty as a parent, or as a human, the refusal to see abuse right

in front of them, or act in any way to stop it. It's NOT THAT HARD. All my

mother would have had to do was not send us to the grandfather, not allow him to

babysit. But she didn't. And even today, with all that has been said and thrown

into the light of day by me about his abuse, she still talks of him fondly.

Maybe I am the one that is crazy.

> > >

> > > Sorry to once again run on so long, I have been feeling extremely nuts

lately. I need therapy and can't afford it I guess. Any light anyone might be

able to shed on this would be very much appreciated.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> These behaviors of deliberately exposing their own child to dangerous people

and dangerous situations does seem so foreign to normal sensibilities as to be

incomprehensible.

>

> Could it be a form of Munchausen's-by-Proxy? The nada *wants* her child to be

injured so that nada gets to play nurse and receive sympathy and attention

from... whoever (the medical community, the police, the justice system?)

that is a really interesting thought. I think it is possible it is a form of

Munchausen, I think it is some kind of 'telling' that I feel I see on this board

alot.

It is as if the bpd mother sees her children as marionettes or dolls through

which she gets to act out and express her unresolved trauma. They are never

their own people. They never become 'real' in her eyes. They are always there to

be dangled by strings, and tell, in one way or another HER story. It almost

makes me wonder if some degree of trauma and isolation for some people

absolutely ceases development, brings it to a grinding halt. So that even though

the person continues to develop physically, mentally they are still grinding in

that crevasse of the trauma. Or, to use another metaphor, they received a

serious wound on their body and it is a permanent scar and the skin around it is

mishapen and creased and wrinkled. it healed, but quite obviously there was

trauma. In the bpd the scar is in the psyche, the brain, it's a gaping hole.

[Guest guest]

you are right on target. the feeling of being alone is terrifying. As a child I

could literally feel my mother's energy drawing away from me and into herself,

like she became a different person, and i found it very upsetting. I believe the

child can't tolerate that feeling in any way because for a child, abandonment,

in the wild, means death, there is no hope for survival. I felt that abandonment

over and over. I don't think it's an accident that my mother 'acts right' and is

careful not to 'get emotional' and raise her voice. I think she is careful to

fall within certain parameters so people won't be able to call her 'crazy' or

what have you. In her world the person that gets 'upset' is the unstable

one...not that that person might have a legimate grievance.

I appreciate the imagery about the quacking duck, that is so true. I too am the

truth teller in my family. and I tend to get exploited as a 'shoulder to cry on'

because I have always wanted to move my family toward healing. what I realize,

finally, is that they have no desire for change, they just want someone to dump

on when it's convenient. not only that but my mother can use me as a shoulder,

and many times I have stood up and expressed for her what she was unwilling to,

only to have her turn around and 'disown' me, and our whole relationships. It is

extremely crazy making. and like said, it is like a black hole. I love

astronomy and I know well that not even light escapes from a black hole so it

seems foolish to me to think I continue to go up against their event horizon

again and again.

>

> What a great discussion that given me so much help! I am so sorry for the

horror you and experienced. I have a picture that helps me. I am

running around screaming Please help me! You've got to help me! OMG! And

everyone is on the floor sleeping, completely unconscious. No one except me

gets the emergency!

> Isn't that our horror?; no one sees,hears,acknowledges or reacts to our

emergency.

> I am completely by myself.

> My nada was a raging alcoholic but only in the house. My role in the family

was scapegoat and truthsayer. No one in a dysfunctional family tolerates the

truth. The Chinese have a saying. " Its the quacking duck who gets shot. "

>

> I think 's social anthropology was terrifically enlightening. It is

so good to utilize other forum members learned perspectives. I never would have

gained such a distant educated insight. I am so enmeshed. Even though I have

been nc and across the continent for most of my life.

> Annie's BPD adult feeling threatened by and therefore leveling one of her

children has been played outin my life by both my parents. I think it could

happen to the alternative spouse also.

> Sue

>

[Guest guest]

thanks so much for this thought provoking post. It resonated tremendously with

me when I read it last night, and I have been thinking about it today,

especially the part about the multi-generational abuse. This is definitely what

went on in both sides of my family. Something I have to admit is that part of me

wants to ask 'are not all families like this'? But I know many if not most are

not.

I feel that whatever this 'thing' is that my mother has, whatever this

dissociative trait and lack of empathy combined can be called, this is *THE* key

to understanding the multi-generational abuse. This glob of sickness, whatever

the official name of it is, is what keeps the abuse continuing. I have seen this

in my paternal grandmother, an aunt, my maternal grandmother, my mother, a great

aunt on my mother's side, etc in terms of abuse they knew was going on and

should have stepped in and put a stop to and did nothing, looked the other way,

blamed the child, or whatever else. It's rife on both sides of my family. Time

after time after time, these women turned a blind eye when it was right there in

front of them, or they were told by the child, or whatever. A history of

psychopathology makes sense too, in that this kind of trauma causes all sorts

and degrees of mental illness. I believe in repetition compulsion and I believe

that the men who were pedophiles were also victimized as children. I know there

is debate about this but I think the lack of empathy and the relation to the

child in general wrongly as a sexual being are learned behaviors that come from

being thusly victimized and also not supported or comforted. Men are far less

likely to confess their sexual victimization because of the ridiculous and

ill-concieved stigmas about homosexuality and 'manhood'. I remember having an

HIV test and the health care worker telling me that she was stunned when she

first started doing the testing and having to get sexual histories of the test

subjects and learning just how pervasive sexual abuse of boys really is in

comparision with society's perception of it, because it is not something men

talk about as freely as women do (which isn't that freely at all, either).

I really appreciate so much the intelligent feedback on this post. Also, thanks

for saying I don't seem to have psychopathology myself, I really needed to hear

that today, because lately I feel like I am going nuts all the time.

> >

> > I havent' been posting in a while because I feel like what I am dealing with

specifically isn't really a good fit for this board right now. But I wanted to

throw this out, just to see if it is anyone else's experience here and how

people think it fits in with BPD. I have been reliving my childhood watching my

mother (not) deal with the borderline (my sister in law) that is living in her

house. I have seen her go more and more into denial, placate the bpd more and

more, refuse to confront her on the cleaning issues, the neglect issues with the

children, etc. She rationalizes, she makes excuses and more and more she

disengages and flat out denies. She is the adult child of a compulsive

gambler/alcoholic/pedophile, her mother died when she was ten.

> >

> > My mother has a job and is well-liked. She functions in society and no one

would ever call her 'crazy'. She is in no way histrionic, EVER. She is rarely

emotionally demonstrative in a negative way. But she did not protect me from her

father, in fact she packed up both my sister and I and sent us to stay with him

for a week, knowing he would be drunk the whole time and knowing we would be

sleeping in his bed with him (I went one summer and sister went the next, he

lived with his own sister). His sister was aware of the abuse and did not

intervene.

> >

> > My father was abusive of me also and my mother did not intervene, except

when he physically attacked me, she would get between us. Watching her not

protect these kids (or intervene on their behalf to the mom about cleaning and

supervision, they aren't being beaten or anything) has really put me back in

childhood in an almost paralyzing way. I feel like I am in an abyss, and being

crushed, watching her concede territory daily to this BPD in the household and

actually prop her up. It is like a nightmare because it is living a current

nightmare and going through memories of the past one at the same time. She had

no empathy and would not validate any abuse of me that occurred. If I told her,

like I did after I had my first gynecological appointment, that it was apparent

to the obgyn that I had serious internal scarring, she literally looked down and

did not acknowledge it. She had zero curiosity about what might have happened to

me and when. WHAT KIND OF MOTHER DOES THIS? When my sister and I compared notes

and told her we'd been abused by her father, she dismissed it, continued to

allow him to babysit and visit all the time, and even sent my brother to stay

with him for a week the following summer. She still has his photos up everywhere

and talks about him fondly.

> >

> > Can anyone relate to this very specific behavior of refusing to protect

children from predators, refusing to validate or acknowledge abuse that has

occurred, refusing to ever give credence to anything an insane person is doing

that points to mental instability? I swear to god, she just 'goes away'. It's

literally like she is no longer in her body. I don't know what to call it other

than a dissociative disorder, denial is not nearly strong enough a word for what

this is. it made me crazy growing up. So many times she 'checked out' when I

needed her in one way or another. She is like a robot going through the motions.

But don't expect her to ever acknowledge ANY abuse that happened or is happening

to you.

> >

> > Another story from my childhood, actually I was in my teens and visiting my

grandmother (on the other side of the family). My uncle came home with a two

year old girl whose mother he had met on the bus to somewhere, rumors later on

were that a 'trade' had taken place for drugs, I don't know why he had her but

apparently he had a history with the mother. At some point during the visit, she

went up to my grandmother and and said " when X (my uncle) sleeps with me, he

plays with my behind " . NO ONE stepped in to help this child. I don't even

remember when the mother showed up to get her...I remember asking my grandmother

about it, and she got the meanest look on her face when I repeated what the

little girl said, and she said, in a very severe and hateful tone, " Children

LIE. " This is the story of my family. Over and over again it is one story after

another just like this. Stepford mothers who walk around like zombies protecting

themselves from seeing the children in their midst being mistreated. Actually

<<that sentence sums up this whole post. The stepford behavior is literally

making me sick to my stomach lately. What causes this robotic denial? I mean, I

know it is abuse, but if the person is not a histrionic witch or queen, they can

literally go through life with everyone loving them, eating them up, calling

them things like 'sweet and kind' meanwhile they are committing the most hideous

dereliction of duty as a parent, or as a human, the refusal to see abuse right

in front of them, or act in any way to stop it. It's NOT THAT HARD. All my

mother would have had to do was not send us to the grandfather, not allow him to

babysit. But she didn't. And even today, with all that has been said and thrown

into the light of day by me about his abuse, she still talks of him fondly.

Maybe I am the one that is crazy.

> >

> > Sorry to once again run on so long, I have been feeling extremely nuts

lately. I need therapy and can't afford it I guess. Any light anyone might be

able to shed on this would be very much appreciated.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

thanks climber, i watch the 2 year old 5 days a week in the afternoon. I have

talked to two people about the current situation and 'not cleaning' isn't

grounds for them to do anything about the kids, besides the mom, there is me and

my dad during the day and my mom at night, and their dad comes home at night.

honestly they are, right now, in the best place they could possibly be. My

mother is afraid of confrontation because she does truly love these kids and not

want them to leave, where they will be unsupervised around the bpd all day,

which, she is correct, would be the worst possible scenario. But I personally

feel the bpd a) has nowhere to go because her family is well aware of how she is

and knows full well she has it made there and isn't going to leave, she is

just holding my family hostage with threats that she might. So my mother and I

strongly disagree on how to handle her. I say set strong boundaries and

confront, confront, confront, whereas my mother believes in letting her do

whatever she wants and trash their house. It's a painful situation to watch and

to be involved in. I pretty much climbed her frame in a confrontation at the end

of august, during which she threatened to hit me and I told her to bring it on,

that I would relish the opportunity to put her in jail...she was already

'leaving' at that point because of a confrontation between my dad and her, but

even after we had our confrontation she still came back the next day. But my

mother doesn't want to risk ANY confrontation with her so she is letting the bpd

run roughshod over our entire family. It's just bringing up all sorts of issues

for me about early childhood, because there ARE legitimate issues my mother

needs to confront about the children's care and what is going on in her home.

And I'm disgusted, and have told her so, that she is hiding behind the excuse of

the bpd's threats to leave, when in reality any confrontation makes her

uncomfortable, to an unbearable degree, because it reminds her of her own

victimization as a child and how powerless she was to 'stand up' to the people

who wronged her. I know this for a fact, that this is her REAL issue with

confronting the SIL. And that is what is triggering me, that she is putting her

own comfort level first in front of being a grownup and stepping in and forcing

the SIL to maintain a sanitary environment for the kids, and forcing her to

supervise BOTH children, instead of just the one that looks like her, and giving

the care of the other one to my dad and I all day. OR, which I have repeatedly

brought up, putting up video to record this woman's negligence when it comes to

her children so there is no way in HELL she can possibly gain custody in the

event of a divorce. Or if the transgressions were bad enough, to get enough

evidence to have her lose parental rights. Initially she was open to this but

more and more it became about how I was 'stressing her out' by continuing to

talk about and acknowledge the dysfunction in her house. It became more and more

about her needs, and her emotional state. I am pretty disgusted at this point.

and I know for certain that this is the same mental state of hers that allowed

her to pack up her daughters and send them off to a pedophile, without even so

much as a 'please, if you don't mind, don't rape my daughters' when we were

young. She WILL NOT endure past a certain level of discomfort, NO MATTER WHAT IS

AT STAKE. And, to be perfectly honest, right now I pretty much despise her for

it.

> >

> > I havent' been posting in a while because I feel like what I am dealing with

specifically isn't really a good fit for this board right now. But I wanted to

throw this out, just to see if it is anyone else's experience here and how

people think it fits in with BPD. I have been reliving my childhood watching my

mother (not) deal with the borderline (my sister in law) that is living in her

house. I have seen her go more and more into denial, placate the bpd more and

more, refuse to confront her on the cleaning issues, the neglect issues with the

children, etc. She rationalizes, she makes excuses and more and more she

disengages and flat out denies. She is the adult child of a compulsive

gambler/alcoholic/pedophile, her mother died when she was ten.

> >

> > My mother has a job and is well-liked. She functions in society and no one

would ever call her 'crazy'. She is in no way histrionic, EVER. She is rarely

emotionally demonstrative in a negative way. But she did not protect me from her

father, in fact she packed up both my sister and I and sent us to stay with him

for a week, knowing he would be drunk the whole time and knowing we would be

sleeping in his bed with him (I went one summer and sister went the next, he

lived with his own sister). His sister was aware of the abuse and did not

intervene.

> >

> > My father was abusive of me also and my mother did not intervene, except

when he physically attacked me, she would get between us. Watching her not

protect these kids (or intervene on their behalf to the mom about cleaning and

supervision, they aren't being beaten or anything) has really put me back in

childhood in an almost paralyzing way. I feel like I am in an abyss, and being

crushed, watching her concede territory daily to this BPD in the household and

actually prop her up. It is like a nightmare because it is living a current

nightmare and going through memories of the past one at the same time. She had

no empathy and would not validate any abuse of me that occurred. If I told her,

like I did after I had my first gynecological appointment, that it was apparent

to the obgyn that I had serious internal scarring, she literally looked down and

did not acknowledge it. She had zero curiosity about what might have happened to

me and when. WHAT KIND OF MOTHER DOES THIS? When my sister and I compared notes

and told her we'd been abused by her father, she dismissed it, continued to

allow him to babysit and visit all the time, and even sent my brother to stay

with him for a week the following summer. She still has his photos up everywhere

and talks about him fondly.

> >

> > Can anyone relate to this very specific behavior of refusing to protect

children from predators, refusing to validate or acknowledge abuse that has

occurred, refusing to ever give credence to anything an insane person is doing

that points to mental instability? I swear to god, she just 'goes away'. It's

literally like she is no longer in her body. I don't know what to call it other

than a dissociative disorder, denial is not nearly strong enough a word for what

this is. it made me crazy growing up. So many times she 'checked out' when I

needed her in one way or another. She is like a robot going through the motions.

But don't expect her to ever acknowledge ANY abuse that happened or is happening

to you.

> >

> > Another story from my childhood, actually I was in my teens and visiting my

grandmother (on the other side of the family). My uncle came home with a two

year old girl whose mother he had met on the bus to somewhere, rumors later on

were that a 'trade' had taken place for drugs, I don't know why he had her but

apparently he had a history with the mother. At some point during the visit, she

went up to my grandmother and and said " when X (my uncle) sleeps with me, he

plays with my behind " . NO ONE stepped in to help this child. I don't even

remember when the mother showed up to get her...I remember asking my grandmother

about it, and she got the meanest look on her face when I repeated what the

little girl said, and she said, in a very severe and hateful tone, " Children

LIE. " This is the story of my family. Over and over again it is one story after

another just like this. Stepford mothers who walk around like zombies protecting

themselves from seeing the children in their midst being mistreated. Actually

<<that sentence sums up this whole post. The stepford behavior is literally

making me sick to my stomach lately. What causes this robotic denial? I mean, I

know it is abuse, but if the person is not a histrionic witch or queen, they can

literally go through life with everyone loving them, eating them up, calling

them things like 'sweet and kind' meanwhile they are committing the most hideous

dereliction of duty as a parent, or as a human, the refusal to see abuse right

in front of them, or act in any way to stop it. It's NOT THAT HARD. All my

mother would have had to do was not send us to the grandfather, not allow him to

babysit. But she didn't. And even today, with all that has been said and thrown

into the light of day by me about his abuse, she still talks of him fondly.

Maybe I am the one that is crazy.

> >

> > Sorry to once again run on so long, I have been feeling extremely nuts

lately. I need therapy and can't afford it I guess. Any light anyone might be

able to shed on this would be very much appreciated.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

it's really hard to understand how your own mother didn't protected you from

obvious abuse. Years ago nada told me a story that shockme - she didn't find

anything wrong with that. Me and my sister where only few years old when my

nada hired a babysitter. Once she came home and find my sister tied up on her

bed and I was in the living room lying on the couch with babysitter teenage son

who is mentally ill. I asked her what did she do? She said she didn't hire her

because it was so hard to find some babysitter in those days. The babysitter

stayed in our house for another half a year. And then she said: " You know, I

didn't tell anything to your father. He would be so mad " and she giggled!!!!??

WTF? She still don't see anything strange in that.

When my sister was older and in other town visiting a faculty some guy was

stalking her. She literally help him to find her, because she rather believes

his lies than her sister urging to help her.

All this and other things she did become kind of " normal " to me - that is her,

that is how she behave - and you help me a lot to find out ( again) how veird is

that. Even when I told somebody what was happening I had a feeling that they

thought that I may over exaggerate or they didn't really understand what I'm

telling them.

> > >

> > > I havent' been posting in a while because I feel like what I am dealing

with specifically isn't really a good fit for this board right now. But I wanted

to throw this out, just to see if it is anyone else's experience here and how

people think it fits in with BPD. I have been reliving my childhood watching my

mother (not) deal with the borderline (my sister in law) that is living in her

house. I have seen her go more and more into denial, placate the bpd more and

more, refuse to confront her on the cleaning issues, the neglect issues with the

children, etc. She rationalizes, she makes excuses and more and more she

disengages and flat out denies. She is the adult child of a compulsive

gambler/alcoholic/pedophile, her mother died when she was ten.

> > >

> > > My mother has a job and is well-liked. She functions in society and no one

would ever call her 'crazy'. She is in no way histrionic, EVER. She is rarely

emotionally demonstrative in a negative way. But she did not protect me from her

father, in fact she packed up both my sister and I and sent us to stay with him

for a week, knowing he would be drunk the whole time and knowing we would be

sleeping in his bed with him (I went one summer and sister went the next, he

lived with his own sister). His sister was aware of the abuse and did not

intervene.

> > >

> > > My father was abusive of me also and my mother did not intervene, except

when he physically attacked me, she would get between us. Watching her not

protect these kids (or intervene on their behalf to the mom about cleaning and

supervision, they aren't being beaten or anything) has really put me back in

childhood in an almost paralyzing way. I feel like I am in an abyss, and being

crushed, watching her concede territory daily to this BPD in the household and

actually prop her up. It is like a nightmare because it is living a current

nightmare and going through memories of the past one at the same time. She had

no empathy and would not validate any abuse of me that occurred. If I told her,

like I did after I had my first gynecological appointment, that it was apparent

to the obgyn that I had serious internal scarring, she literally looked down and

did not acknowledge it. She had zero curiosity about what might have happened to

me and when. WHAT KIND OF MOTHER DOES THIS? When my sister and I compared notes

and told her we'd been abused by her father, she dismissed it, continued to

allow him to babysit and visit all the time, and even sent my brother to stay

with him for a week the following summer. She still has his photos up everywhere

and talks about him fondly.

> > >

> > > Can anyone relate to this very specific behavior of refusing to protect

children from predators, refusing to validate or acknowledge abuse that has

occurred, refusing to ever give credence to anything an insane person is doing

that points to mental instability? I swear to god, she just 'goes away'. It's

literally like she is no longer in her body. I don't know what to call it other

than a dissociative disorder, denial is not nearly strong enough a word for what

this is. it made me crazy growing up. So many times she 'checked out' when I

needed her in one way or another. She is like a robot going through the motions.

But don't expect her to ever acknowledge ANY abuse that happened or is happening

to you.

> > >

> > > Another story from my childhood, actually I was in my teens and visiting

my grandmother (on the other side of the family). My uncle came home with a two

year old girl whose mother he had met on the bus to somewhere, rumors later on

were that a 'trade' had taken place for drugs, I don't know why he had her but

apparently he had a history with the mother. At some point during the visit, she

went up to my grandmother and and said " when X (my uncle) sleeps with me, he

plays with my behind " . NO ONE stepped in to help this child. I don't even

remember when the mother showed up to get her...I remember asking my grandmother

about it, and she got the meanest look on her face when I repeated what the

little girl said, and she said, in a very severe and hateful tone, " Children

LIE. " This is the story of my family. Over and over again it is one story after

another just like this. Stepford mothers who walk around like zombies protecting

themselves from seeing the children in their midst being mistreated. Actually

<<that sentence sums up this whole post. The stepford behavior is literally

making me sick to my stomach lately. What causes this robotic denial? I mean, I

know it is abuse, but if the person is not a histrionic witch or queen, they can

literally go through life with everyone loving them, eating them up, calling

them things like 'sweet and kind' meanwhile they are committing the most hideous

dereliction of duty as a parent, or as a human, the refusal to see abuse right

in front of them, or act in any way to stop it. It's NOT THAT HARD. All my

mother would have had to do was not send us to the grandfather, not allow him to

babysit. But she didn't. And even today, with all that has been said and thrown

into the light of day by me about his abuse, she still talks of him fondly.

Maybe I am the one that is crazy.

> > >

> > > Sorry to once again run on so long, I have been feeling extremely nuts

lately. I need therapy and can't afford it I guess. Any light anyone might be

able to shed on this would be very much appreciated.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Joe, , Sue, Annie, and others,

I have been reading this discussion and am floored. I would like to express my

sympathies for those of you who were abused so horribly. I appreciate your

great courage to heal and share on this board. We have history of severe sexual

abuse in our family, but I have no memories of sexual abuse myself. Still,

there are some odd things I cannot understand. At the very least, the pervasive

patterns of unhealthy behavior and mental illness run rampant throughout the

genetic lines.

Could someone direct me to Annie's post that discusses a BPD adult feeling

threatened by one of her children and leveling them? I cannot find that

information, but have often wondered why my parents, sister, aunts and uncles

seemed to target me. I was the quacking duck, singing holding a guitar. Not

that hard to find... ha ha

-Coal Miner's Daughter

>> I think 's social anthropology was terrifically enlightening. It is

so good to utilize other forum members learned perspectives. I never would have

gained such a distant educated insight. I am so enmeshed. Even though I have

been nc and across the continent for most of my life.

> Annie's BPD adult feeling threatened by and therefore leveling one of her

children has been played outin my life by both my parents. I think it could

happen to the alternative spouse also.

> Sue

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Joe, , Sue, Annie, and others,

I have been reading this discussion and am floored. I would like to express my

sympathies for those of you who were abused so horribly. I appreciate your

great courage to heal and share on this board. We have history of severe sexual

abuse in our family, but I have no memories of sexual abuse myself. Still,

there are some odd things I cannot understand. At the very least, the pervasive

patterns of unhealthy behavior and mental illness run rampant throughout the

genetic lines.

Could someone direct me to Annie's post that discusses a BPD adult feeling

threatened by one of her children and leveling them? I cannot find that

information, but have often wondered why my parents, sister, aunts and uncles

seemed to target me. I was the quacking duck, singing holding a guitar. Not

that hard to find... ha ha

-Coal Miner's Daughter

>> I think 's social anthropology was terrifically enlightening. It is

so good to utilize other forum members learned perspectives. I never would have

gained such a distant educated insight. I am so enmeshed. Even though I have

been nc and across the continent for most of my life.

> Annie's BPD adult feeling threatened by and therefore leveling one of her

children has been played outin my life by both my parents. I think it could

happen to the alternative spouse also.

> Sue

>

[Guest guest]

Hi yenaine,

I know what you mean about people not understanding. They look at you with a

blank kind of stare. The worst part is that they seem to think I'm the crazy

one - either for making this stuff up or coming from such insanity. People just

can't relate to the whole - my mother transchanneled spirits from the other side

thing. She made me her cult guide and I spent most of my high school years

talking to dead people (or to nada's overactive imagination, as my husband

believes).

I just stopped telling people a long time ago.

-Coal Miner's Daughter

p.s. I don't even bother explaining stuff to my sis anymore that is going on now

- she always minimizes it or defends nada.

>> All this and other things she did become kind of " normal " to me - that is

her, that is how she behave - and you help me a lot to find out ( again) how

veird is that. Even when I told somebody what was happening I had a feeling that

they thought that I may over exaggerate or they didn't really understand what

I'm telling them.

>

[Guest guest]

That was a good post that used the quacking duck analogy, but it wasn't mine;

I'd direct you to it but I can't remember who did post it. I'm sure someone

will know and direct us to it; it wasn't too far back. From Monday?

-Annie

> Could someone direct me to Annie's post that discusses a BPD adult feeling

threatened by one of her children and leveling them? I cannot find that

information, but have often wondered why my parents, sister, aunts and uncles

seemed to target me. I was the quacking duck, singing holding a guitar. Not

that hard to find... ha ha

>

> -Coal Miner's Daughter

[Guest guest]

Hi Coal miner daughter!

From all the abuses for me the spiritual abuse is almost the worst one. At least

for me.I consider myself deeply spiritual but I'm completely allergic on this

kind of abuse. It is easier to heal body and mind than to heal your spirit.

I'm a journalist and I met some children who where similar (or even worst) used

by their parents or other adults. It was deeply touched when I see how much

problems this kids have later in their live. I made some articles about that and

I fought some battles for this kids. It always shocked me that society don't

see any real problem in that or how much they are afraid to interfere

sometimes.

> >> All this and other things she did become kind of " normal " to me - that is

her, that is how she behave - and you help me a lot to find out ( again) how

veird is that. Even when I told somebody what was happening I had a feeling that

they thought that I may over exaggerate or they didn't really understand what

I'm telling them.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I had some problems feeling this way about 15 years ago when a girl was murdered

in my hometown. It was in a very popular scenic spot, I had friends that were in

her circle of friends, it was a small town, and full of a lot of very

enlightened people, who settled in the town from the 80's onward. Prior to that,

there were mainly natives because the town hadn't been discovered so much to

that degree, and it was populated mainly by appalachians. I was in recovery, in

AA, and friends with the people who were not native to the area who were all

hoping for the girl to be found alive, she was missing a month. She was a jogger

and a local college student, a very accomplished athlete, she disappeared

running on the Blue Ridge Parkway.

I never so sharply felt the divide between families like mine and the 'good'

people that I had befriended in recovery, when her body was found and the

murderer ended up being related to me by marriage. I tried to express the shame

I felt and I was met with no understanding at all. I felt this way because of

the pervasisve sickness running through my family; the girl the murderer married

was a cousin and an extremely messed up person who no doubt was a victim of the

same things I'd been a victim of in childhood, though probably much worse. The

couple had children. I just remember being so awash with shame after the girl

was found, I felt like the devil, the enemy, etc. And no one I talked to

understood. They found her duct taped to a tree and shot in the head, she had

been raped. I felt like, who am I trying to fool, I am from people who do things

like this, not these nice people with nice jobs and college degrees and nice

cars that I sit next to in AA meetings, some of whom ran the parkway with her

and knew her...I haven't thought about this in a long time.

> >> All this and other things she did become kind of " normal " to me - that is

her, that is how she behave - and you help me a lot to find out ( again) how

veird is that. Even when I told somebody what was happening I had a feeling that

they thought that I may over exaggerate or they didn't really understand what

I'm telling them.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

It must be horrible experience and you didn't have nothing to do with that

murder, except to be a victim too - a victim of your crazy family and relatives.

I remember too being ashamed or sad because I live in " crazy " family. And I was

dreaming of having " nice and normal " one. But later I felt just anger for this

" nice and normal " people. If they would be so Nice and Normal they would see

what was happening and they would do something. They probably did see and didn't

do anything. They rather live their so called normal life and pretend nothing

was happening around them. And this is not Nice and Normal form me. Not anymore

now when I know there is a lot of things you can do if you see others children

or adults suffering.

> > >> All this and other things she did become kind of " normal " to me - that

is her, that is how she behave - and you help me a lot to find out ( again) how

veird is that. Even when I told somebody what was happening I had a feeling that

they thought that I may over exaggerate or they didn't really understand what

I'm telling them.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

It must be horrible experience and you didn't have nothing to do with that

murder, except to be a victim too - a victim of your crazy family and relatives.

I remember too being ashamed or sad because I live in " crazy " family. And I was

dreaming of having " nice and normal " one. But later I felt just anger for this

" nice and normal " people. If they would be so Nice and Normal they would see

what was happening and they would do something. They probably did see and didn't

do anything. They rather live their so called normal life and pretend nothing

was happening around them. And this is not Nice and Normal form me. Not anymore

now when I know there is a lot of things you can do if you see others children

or adults suffering.

> > >> All this and other things she did become kind of " normal " to me - that

is her, that is how she behave - and you help me a lot to find out ( again) how

veird is that. Even when I told somebody what was happening I had a feeling that

they thought that I may over exaggerate or they didn't really understand what

I'm telling them.

> > >

> >

>