Re: Sinking in at last: my nada is a psychopath

[Guest guest]

(((((((())))))))

Wow. That is a huge and devastating concept to take in, I can understand why it

would take a long time to truly absorb it: that your mother is actually a

psychopath who has also had psychotic episodes (breaks with reality) and the

emotional dysregulation of bpd.

Truly, from all the various horrific behaviors and interactions with her that

you have endured and survived, it makes sense to me that she truly falls into

that most severe category of personality disorder: psychopathy. And truly, it

is so tragic that you had to grow up in the " care " of such a person and that her

" mask " was so firmly in place that no other adult was willing to see past it and

rescue you.

You must have a core of steel to have survived at all.

That complete lack of empathy for the feelings of others and that complete lack

of remorse (lack of a " conscience " ) and caring *only* for their own self is

truly chilling. Seems I'm remembering reading in " The Mask Of Sanity " that

those qualities are what make us fully human. The author described it as empty

holes where those parts of the mind/brain normally exist. But psychopaths do

have very tender feelings and care deeply RE their own safety and security; they

can be moved to tears over their own losses and hurts.

I've long thought of psychopaths as being human-shaped sharks, who only live to

feed and reproduce and who view other human beings only as potential meals.

Very, very chilling to think of a normal, innocent, tender-hearted little child

in the care of such an individual.

Thanks for the links to the sociopath blog. I think its important, for me,

anyway, to understand how such individuals think and feel, from their own

mouths. Very enlightening.

-Annie

>

> Ok,well...The other day I happened across this (to me) mind blowing

website/blog that is written by an acknowledged sociopath with copious

commentary by other sociopaths,psychopaths,diagnosed ASPDs...the author of the

blog makes these distinctions on the continuum:

>

> --Sociopaths are the types who engage in petty crime (or not so petty,such as

corporate theft/exploitation); they have no remorse for what they do but are

self aware and controlled enough to elude detection/imprisonment...for the most

part...They wear the " mask of sanity " /normacly in public and they *know* it.They

get their jollies off of manipulating people/lying to them/seducing them--it's

all a game to relieve the sociopath's boredom and inner emptiness.

>

> --Psychopaths are the types who either didn't properly control their impulses

to do mortal harm and got caught or are simply extremely violent and deadly

predators who fly under the radar.

>

> --ASPDs are what they are: people who as children were diagnosed with ODD

and/or ADHD;who tortured and killed animals; who started fires or fights; who as

adults live a predatory existence with zero regard for the rights of others.

>

> An individual can be at all of these points on the continuum during

their lifespan or can switch between them or remain at one end,such as the

sociopath who never veers into outright psychopathy.

>

> It's a complicated subject but as I was reading the posts on this blog

my jaw kept dropping.My own nada fits with Ann Lawson's descriptions

of the BPD " Witch " in " Understanding The Borderline Mother " but this blog has

really helped me to get a feel for what " motivated " my nada's behavior with

me.Reading it was like going beyond just knowing she split me all bad to almost

stepping inside her mind.The " why " I discovered wasn't quite what I expected but

as I was reading it made sense.

>

> For example,a blog post about guilt:

>

> " I'm still learning a lot about myself. For instance, I was prompted

recently to think about " guilt. " A reader writes:

>

> Sometimes I feel what I think may be guilt, but there's always a metaphorical

voice in the back of my head telling me, " No, you only feel that way because

your image was tarnished. " That " voice " is incredibly difficult to pay attention

to, by the way. I feel a horrible feeling whenever I do something that hurts

someone and it can be linked back to me. If there is no link to me, I don't feel

anything. It's very hard for me to differentiate between this and guilt, and

I've frequently used it to justify my own humanity. But why don't I feel such

things if nobody knows who caused it? It can't be guilt. I only care when there

are consequences for me.

> I reply:

>

> That is interesting how you feel bad only when you are caught, essentially. I

mean, it's a trite phrase -- " he's only sorry he got caught " -- but it is so

true for me. I can actually feel really really badly about things that I got

caught for, for whatever reason. But the phrase doesn't fit exactly. It's not

like I feel disappointed that I couldn't get away with it. I just feel ... out

of sorts. I feel like the world is an ugly place where I don't belong. That is

what makes me feel bad. Definitely not, " oh, poor person I hurt. " It's more

like, " poor me for having to live in this ugly world and deal with this. " This

happened to me very recently when I stole/borrowed something from my neighbor,

hoping she would never find out before I returned it. She did find out, though,

and confronted me about it. Or she at least asked me about it and I didn't know

what she knew so I just came clean, but spun a story of emergency, etc.,

figuring that would be better for me than to be caught in a lie. But she

wouldn't have it. She threatened to call the authorities. Now that seemed like

an overreaction by anyone's standards, but for some reason it deeply disturbed

me. I think I realized how vulnerable I am, how hated I am just by virtue of

what I am. I didn't really think about it at the time, but what you wrote really

made sense to me. I wouldn't have felt the least tinge of guilt if I had never

been caught, but being caught made me feel all sorts of guilt, or what felt like

guilt at least. Maybe it was just regret. "

>

> link: http://www.sociopathworld.com/2009/06/guilt.html

>

> This was interesting to me because I recall that what " upset " nada and

made her go into suicidal meltdowns was losing control--she'd then lament that

the world is an " ugly place where she doesn't belong " .And then how the blogger

calls his neighbor's outraged reaction to having her property stolen " an

overreaction by anyone's standards " (!!!) that for some reason " deeply

disturbed " him.He realized how vulnerable he was,how hated he was just by virtue

of what he is--but--he " didn't really think about it at the time " .

>

> How can you be " deeply disturbed " and know that you are hated,but not

really think about it????

>

> In the comments to this blog post,a reader shares how she was victimized

and damaged by a sociopathic boyfriend and says that as someone who feels

empathy for others what bothers her the most is how her boyfriend could have

done such evil by her and feel no guilt about it.She then asks the sociopaths

for feedback.

>

> One of them cannot understand why she even wants to know why.What's the

point? She's just making herself miserable worrying about what made her

boyfriend tick--she should focus on herself and her own needs and just forget

about him.

>

> Another sociopath suggests that her boyfriend must have done what he did

because he didn't really value her--not by way of saying: You deserve

better,with someone who does value you...but by way of saying: Look,here's the

deal,he just didn't care about you.Stop being an emotional fool and just move

on.

>

> The gist of their responses being: " I don't see why you're being so

ridiculously sensitive about this and why in the world you'd bother with wanting

to understand him. "

>

> In another blog the author talks about how he dumped a " friend " when her

father had terminal cancer and her depression was too much for him to take:

>

> " M.E.: Exactly! You can't indefinitely wear a mask that is so foreign to

the way you typically are, a mask of extreme compassion or selflessness. So the

costs of the relationship go up, and the benefits go down because she is

depressed all the time and you're not getting what you used to get, very

interesting conversations, a check on your own bad behavior, superior advice in

all things including fashion. You run many months into the red and there still

seems to be no improvement. It will tear you up inside. It's too much, too much

force to try to put on your psyche.

>

> Reader: And is there a way to talk about what used to be good about the

relationship so that you two can go back to that?

>

> M.E.: Yeah, there are always ways to go back, sunk costs, right? They're

ignored.

>

> Reader: So will you get back in touch with your friend eventually?

>

> M.E.: Ah, we're friends now. She picks all of my best clothing items. We

didn't speak for a while, though. I was the one who asked for that, not

speaking, that is. I think that hurt her a lot. She has a fear of being

abandoned.

>

> Reader: Of course it hurt her.

>

> M.E.: Which is why I postponed it for so long, but it was literally making me

crazy. I mean, I don't really have any boundaries. It's really hard to be put in

a situation in which boundaries are necessary.

>

> Reader: You probably did the right thing, by taking space.

>

> M.E.: Yeah, maybe. It was really hard. I think it bothered me more that I had

failed than that I had failed her, you know? I have such a healthy self-image,

then something like this comes along. That's when you start feeling like you

really are defective, like something is seriously wrong with you. You start

believing that no matter how hard you try to do better in the future, this will

keep happening over and over in your life like some sort of sick déjà vu. That's

when life really starts to seem meaningless. "

>

> link: http://www.sociopathworld.com/search/label/relationships

>

> It bothered him more that he had failed than that he had failed her.It

made *him* feel defective.

>

> BPD is supposed to be about self hatred but I have to say,my nada had a

" healthy " (feeling good,I guess) self image like this guy and what really got

her goat was anyone making her feel like " something was seriously wrong " with

her.That person she would dump in a heartbeat,including her own child,me.Dumping

me by splitting me all bad seems like the same thing,to me.Which also functions

as a restoration of " meaning " .

>

> I've had to come to this acceptance,that my nada is a cold hearted

sociopath along with her BPD dysregulations,in slow stages.Being " raised " by

someone like this is like a living death and is just the absolute antithesis of

having a mother--and a grave insult/assault to the natural empathy of a

" neurotypical " child,to the degree of soul rape.

>

> When I turned six nada bought me a present for my birthday that I didn't

like.My displeasure was obvious when I opened the package because it wasn't what

I had asked for.I saw her give me a look of pure hatred when I frowned at the

present,yet later I sought her out to apologize for my insensitivity.I told her

that on reflection I really did like the present and said, " I'm sorry if I hurt

your feelings. "

>

> Coldly,emotionlessly,she said, " You didn't hurt my feelings.I don't

care. "

>

> I was devastated because I knew she meant it.I couldn't make it right or

make it better because there was nothing to make right or better: she simply did

not care; she had no feelings to be " hurt " ,only hatred to inflict on me.That was

like agony to me because if I had been in the place of the gift giver whose gift

was not well received and the person I'd given it to apologized to me,I would

have been so happy for us to make amends and it was just utterly foreign to how

I am for nada to simply not care and for there to be no possible amends to be

made.It was like being in an abyss.

>

> I'm taking this in.But it's actually taking this time.If anyone wants to

check out the website,a good place to start is with the FAQ section:

>

> http://www.sociopathworld.com/p/frequently-asked-questions.html

>

> But I have to issue a warning that the content of this website could be

exceptionally triggering to some.I have found what I'm reading there fascinating

but some of the posts are quite disturbing-having said that there is also a

wealth of information about how these people think if you can stomach it.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Holy Freaking Cow! I read some of the entries at the blog you found, ,

and its truly chilling to the marrow.

The psychopaths who write and respond there are just writing about what they

think and how they feel. They're just being their natural selves, I believe.

Some of them have questions about what " guilt " feels like: they're not sure if

they've ever felt " guilt " , and they're not sure about what having a " conscience "

feels like, but they're quite open about the fact that they do not feel badly

for the people they've hurt. The frankness is all just rather staggering.

Its like those born blind discussing among themselves what a " sunset " must be

and what they've heard it is, but they have no means of experiencing it

themselves or comprehending it.

One of the psychopaths wrote that intellectually he understands what *stealing*

is, taking something that does not belong to you without permission, and he

wrote that he took some item from his neighbor without asking, intending to use

it and put it back again (he saw nothing " wrong " about that) but his neighbor

caught him. The psychopath wrote that when he was caught all he felt was a kind

of irritation that he wasn't smart enough to avoid getting caught, and he felt

worried that his neighbor might file charges against him, but, there was NO

sense of guilt or remorse.

He felt bad for himself: he didn't like feeling stupid, but he had absolutely no

feelings at all about having wronged his neighbor or for doing something wrong.

No shame. No guilt. No remorse. His only feelings were, " Poor me, how sad

that I got caught. What a bother. "

The part of the brain that is our human conscience.. just isn't there.

Various psychopaths posted that they also have no real sense of *time* as a

continuum, they just live in the present moment, which they speculate probably

influences their inability to learn from past mistakes, or grasp how antisocial

behavior committed today might have a negative impact on their future. The only

thing that is important to the psychopath is " What I want, right now. "

A chilling admission is that they frequently if not constantly feel both angry,

and bored. They have no inner life, no core self, and the boredom and emptiness

eats them alive. The psychopaths who write at this blog would (apparently)

rather cause pain and chaos and destruction to those around them than feel

bored.

Seeing how far they can go with using other people (such as one psychopath who

seduced a young girl who was very religious just to see if he could) is a kind

of amusing game for them. He didn't care that this young girl could wind up

pregnant, or persecuted/rejected/harmed by her very religious family and

culture. He just wanted to see if he could seduce her, and he did, and then the

game was over; he'd won. On to the next game.

One of the psychopaths wrote that having total and complete power over another

person, the power to make another feel pain, or joy, or the power to kill them

or let them live, is just another way to fill the time and stave off boredom. A

way to feel alive.

Truly, it is bone-chilling to think of a child being raised by such an inhuman

creature, who finds tormenting their own child simply a kind of

boredom-relieving activity, in exactly the same way that a cat will catch a

mouse, cripple it, and then " play " with it until it dies.

It does sound like something out of a nightmare fairy-tale, and unbelievable,

except that many of us here experienced just such treatment from our own

personality-disordered ( " psychopath lite " ?) parents to one degree or another.

Very, very chilling.

-Annie

..... If anyone wants to check out the website,a good place to start is with the

FAQ section:

>

> http://www.sociopathworld.com/p/frequently-asked-questions.html

>

> But I have to issue a warning that the content of this website could be

exceptionally triggering to some.I have found what I'm reading there fascinating

but some of the posts are quite disturbing-having said that there is also a

wealth of information about how these people think if you can stomach it.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks,Annie.I'm glad you found the blog posts enlightening.It's important to me

too to know how these people feel and think from their own points of view.I was

really poring over this site and over and over again I was gobsmacked to be

hearing my own nada's voice speaking.I think what was most galling to me is that

most of them seemed to fully believe that they are superior to and smarter than

those of us who actually give a damn about how our behavior impacts on other

people.They equate empathy and caring with " having a lazy mind " and being

weak--which is my nada to a T.One of the posters on there started to say he had

hurt someone then immediately qualified it with " they allowed me to hurt

them " .Nada used to say that to me all the time: You hurt *yourself* and " it's a

shame you feel things so deeply " like that was some kind of deformity--she just

did not get it.

It's hard to apprehend how one person can be a few disorders rolled into

one but I agree with you that at the core of it is psychopathy and her behavior

with me bears that out.She didn't bother to wear her mask with me and I wonder

how much of that was her perceiving me as an extension of herself BPD style (as

in,one wouldn't need to wear the mask of sanity to oneself) and how much of that

was her knowing that even if I " knew " ,I had no power to do anything about it.

Another thing that struck me about the posts on that site was how very

aware they are all of what they are.I know that my nada also had such awareness

because she even told me once that I was the only one who knew her and that

everyone else,even fada,only knew her by her " act " : that she *pretended* to be

nice but only I knew the real her.

Something that I simply cannot comprehend is cold bloodedly taking

pleasure in hurting others,like a small child.Intellectually I can sort of

imagine the thrill of having power over another but for everything to be so

sickeningly relative to the degree of even enjoying having power over someone as

helpless as a child would be personally shameful and would debase me.But these

types seem to find even that amusing.When nada boasted to me of how she'd abused

me as an infant she was *proud* of herself--and I kept picking up that sick

" pride " in the posts on that website when they were writing about torturing

animals,for example.These people just get drunk on their own " power " and

anything is fair game.They have no appreciation of true honor--everything

amounts to putting something over on someone or having power for its own

sake,even with a baby or a little animal.It's truly base.

Being " raised " by someone like this it was impossible to mediate any

kind of common ground.I was constantly approaching nada from the standpoint of

someone who has empathy and she was constantly sneering at me for being such a

fool in that way.I kept trying and trying to " humanize " her and that was never

going to happen.

Bearing the burden of knowing how she really is...last Christmas my

uncle called me to invite to the New Year's party he always throws since nada

wasn't attending and he knows we are NC.He's a nice guy,normal.He puts on a

great party every year.He tries to keep the family together,at least to have

them gather round once a year.He told me that my brother had never responded to

his invitation and then he said that my mother has always been his " favorite

cousin " .As soon as he said that,I recalled how nada derided the Christmas

newsletter he sent every year,laughing at it and making fun of him.Yet there he

was feeling this touching loyalty for her because they are near in age and had

been " pals " as kids.As a matter of fact,he was nada's *only* friend until middle

school--and I wondered how hurt he would feel if he knew what nada really thinks

of him: that he is a fool.For caring enough to send that newsletter out every

Christmas,for going out of his way to put that New Year's party together.All he

really is,is a nice guy.

I didn't know what to say about nada being his " favorite cousin " because

I knew that for her it's all a sham and that made me feel sick,because he's a

nice guy.If I disabused him of his illusions that would make *me* cruel,it

seemed to me.Although I doubted he'd believe me anyway--he'd be more likely to

view me as being nasty to him and then I'd be like nada's tool somehow.She

played me like that again and again when I was a child,having *me* come off as

the one with the grudge or the negative mindset or the nastiness while she

laughed behind her hand at the succesful deception she was pulling off whenever

I tried to tell someone the truth.

So I gave my uncle an excuse for not being able to attend his party and

felt really bad about it.But I could not go to that party and pretend...I seem

to carry the burden of nada's lack of a conscience along with my own because one

of the reasons why I didn't want to go to that party was because I couldn't look

at my uncle after he said nada is his " favorite cousin " for sentimental reasons

and *not* feel sad for him.He was telling me during that phone conversation his

fond memories of how close he and nada were as kids.Something that means NOTHING

to nada now and I believe only " meant " anything to her at the time because my

uncle is three years younger than her and must have been her willing little

lackey in childhood,someone she had power over like a queen.But his enduring

fondness for her means NOTHING to her.In her mind,he is a fool to be derided.

For me,that makes me ache.It makes me hurt for my uncle,that his

affection is so misplaced and yet to tell him so seems even more cruel.I mean,if

he could actually take that in and actually understand and believe that nada

only sneers at and mocks his genuine regard for her--that his tender feelings

are wasted on her--to think of how much that would hurt *him* hurts *me*.Because

the poor guy is sincere.

I don't know if I do have a core of steel,you know.I have a core of

compassion and I suppose that is what helped me to keep myself somewhat intact

but I have a " flea " from trying to love someone (nada) who is so many light

years removed from *love* that I struggle with feeling as if everything is just

meaningless.I was a tender hearted child who was bloodied by an inhuman

shark--and the difference between me and my uncle is that I KNOW it.

I'm rambling...thank you so much for your support and understanding.It

truly helps.This really is hard to take in because it's so contrary to my own

conception of LIFE,of being alive and being human.But it is what it is--and this

*thing*,this reptilian creature,is my own mother...it really does feel as if I

was hatched from an egg and stumbled off on my own to survive,with every

predator in the vicinity having at me (including the creature who hatched

me).It's almost too bizarre,it's like some pre-historic nightmare.

>

> (((((((())))))))

>

> Wow. That is a huge and devastating concept to take in, I can understand why

it would take a long time to truly absorb it: that your mother is actually a

psychopath who has also had psychotic episodes (breaks with reality) and the

emotional dysregulation of bpd.

>

> Truly, from all the various horrific behaviors and interactions with her that

you have endured and survived, it makes sense to me that she truly falls into

that most severe category of personality disorder: psychopathy. And truly, it

is so tragic that you had to grow up in the " care " of such a person and that her

" mask " was so firmly in place that no other adult was willing to see past it and

rescue you.

> You must have a core of steel to have survived at all.

>

> That complete lack of empathy for the feelings of others and that complete

lack of remorse (lack of a " conscience " ) and caring *only* for their own self is

truly chilling. Seems I'm remembering reading in " The Mask Of Sanity " that

those qualities are what make us fully human. The author described it as empty

holes where those parts of the mind/brain normally exist. But psychopaths do

have very tender feelings and care deeply RE their own safety and security; they

can be moved to tears over their own losses and hurts.

>

> I've long thought of psychopaths as being human-shaped sharks, who only live

to feed and reproduce and who view other human beings only as potential meals.

>

> Very, very chilling to think of a normal, innocent, tender-hearted little

child in the care of such an individual.

>

> Thanks for the links to the sociopath blog. I think its important, for me,

anyway, to understand how such individuals think and feel, from their own

mouths. Very enlightening.

>

> -Annie