Re: and Ann

[Guest guest]

noooo it is not all your fault.. people just seem to have to be negative and

critical lately on this board .. stick with it and it will pass i feel.. just

like life, it will have its ups and downs.ann

Subject: and Ann

To: " wtoadultchildren1 " <WTOAdultChildren1 >

Date: Monday, November 22, 2010, 12:50 AM

 

I'm trying to figure out why and Ann don't feel safe here. Did

something happen that I missed.

I'm sorry. Of course, being a KO I assume that it is 100 percent my fault.

[Guest guest]

noooo it is not all your fault.. people just seem to have to be negative and

critical lately on this board .. stick with it and it will pass i feel.. just

like life, it will have its ups and downs.ann

Subject: and Ann

To: " wtoadultchildren1 " <WTOAdultChildren1 >

Date: Monday, November 22, 2010, 12:50 AM

 

I'm trying to figure out why and Ann don't feel safe here. Did

something happen that I missed.

I'm sorry. Of course, being a KO I assume that it is 100 percent my fault.

[Guest guest]

noooo it is not all your fault.. people just seem to have to be negative and

critical lately on this board .. stick with it and it will pass i feel.. just

like life, it will have its ups and downs.ann

Subject: and Ann

To: " wtoadultchildren1 " <WTOAdultChildren1 >

Date: Monday, November 22, 2010, 12:50 AM

 

I'm trying to figure out why and Ann don't feel safe here. Did

something happen that I missed.

I'm sorry. Of course, being a KO I assume that it is 100 percent my fault.

[Guest guest]

Girlscout, you slay me!

ME TOO!! That's exactly how I felt. Even though I never had any contact with

them, I figured it was because I didn't speak up.

>

> I'm trying to figure out why and Ann don't feel safe here. Did

> something happen that I missed.

>

> I'm sorry. Of course, being a KO I assume that it is 100 percent my fault.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm still puzzled; I think posted that she was leaving our group

because at one of the *other* Welcome To Oz groups she belongs to, a member at

that Group insulted her (correct?)

But... maybe she meant that someone who belongs to both our Group and the other

WTO Group insulted her at that Group, perhaps? If that's the case then I

understand wanting to leave our Group, if that same person is at both Groups.

But I'm not sure I'm understanding her post correctly, and I'm just guessing.

-Annie

> >

> > I'm trying to figure out why and Ann don't feel safe here. Did

> > something happen that I missed.

> >

> > I'm sorry. Of course, being a KO I assume that it is 100 percent my fault.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I admit I don't read every post because too much hits close to home and I don't

handle it well. I want to run away and hibernate. But so far, everything I have

read has been either shared feelings and experiences (which is a helpful thing

to do) or encouraging, understanding responses. I'm glad I missed the negative,

grumpy comments then.

irene

>

>

> Subject: and Ann

> To: " wtoadultchildren1 " <WTOAdultChildren1 >

> Date: Monday, November 22, 2010, 12:50 AM

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>  

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> I'm trying to figure out why and Ann don't feel safe here. Did

>

> something happen that I missed.

>

>

>

> I'm sorry. Of course, being a KO I assume that it is 100 percent my fault.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I've been lurking again a little the past few days, so I don't know that I know

those two, but I did log on just in time to see the last person announce her

departure.

I don't know the specific circumstances in those two examples, but I've been a

member of this board long enough to have seen this behavior from people before.

It usually has to do with someone's need to feel completely validated.

Sometimes, it's fleas. Every time, it feels somehow manipulative to me. It

leaves people scratching their heads, wondering " What do I do? Oh no, I feel so

guilty! " You're right that KOs instinctively respond with guilt.

I can remember once or twice, someone wrote something along the lines of, " OMG,

you are all such snobs and have such a clique, every time I post something

NOBODY responds, but when other people post, they get TONS of responses. I'm

leaving! " These people had a need to feel heard (quite understandable!), and

they also had expectations that the other members of the board were supposed to

read AND reply to every single message (not entirely reasonable). These people

got lots of apology-responses from the guilt-ridden KOs, but still felt injured.

There was a similar instance that happened to me. I had replied to another

member, who was upset with her therapist, had already gotten a lot of positive,

affirming responses. As nicely as I could, I told her that I could understand

her therapists point of view. She was triggered by something I said, and

snapped a snarky reply back at me. I wrote back one more time, short and sweet,

even apologizing if my tone had offended her, but she remained ostensibly angry

that I would do what she had actually asked (which was to offer advice about the

letter she sent her therapist) without telling her that she was totally right.

A lot of that interaction reminded me of how my mother would have behaved. At

first I was stunned, and a little offended myself, but I realized that this

other human being, like myself, had a lot of other issues to deal with. I

decided not to interact with her anymore, so that she would not feel criticized

further by me, and because she clearly did not find my style of response

helpful. It was shortly after this that she announced she was leaving because

we were so mean and this board just wasn't what she thought it was.

Now, I have to admit, it's also (rarely!) happened that sometimes people get out

of control here and start really criticizing or stalking or fighting. If names

are called, or guidelines are not followed, the inappropriate message should

always be forwarded to the moderator. Most of the time, though, at least from

what I observe, nothing really all that bad has happened when people make their

dramatic exit announcement. They have perceived that their needs aren't met,

and respond in the way they have been trained to respond.

So, unless you've actually broken the WTO covenant or said something really mean

or offensive, or failed to intervene when you've seen someone else do it, you

have no reason to feel guilty. KOs sometimes have unresolved issues that make

them react the way they learned to react from their BPD parent. And that, in

turn, can trigger those feelings we learned from trying to interact with our BPD

parents. Take a step back when this happens and evaluate whether you really

did something wrong, or whether the other person might be using a little FOG.

KT

>

> I'm trying to figure out why and Ann don't feel safe here. Did

> something happen that I missed.

>

> I'm sorry. Of course, being a KO I assume that it is 100 percent my fault.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Attention seeking behavior turns me off, and I tend to ignore it so I have no

idea what happened and why the dramatic exit was necessary. If they didn't feel

safe/validated/worshipped/whatever they could have just left without saying

anything. To me, even having a post like that is attention seeking. Reminds me

of my mothers antics too much.

I read the posts where people are looking for help, or are sharing experiences,

thats what interests me.

I have learned a LOT from this newsgroup that has helped me come to terms with

my life and has helped me in the growing process. But I also recognise that many

people are not in the same place I am. I see them as I was a good 20 years ago.

Still raw. But also still acting a lot like my own NADA, not quite recognizing

my own fleas that I need to deal with.

>

> I'm trying to figure out why and Ann don't feel safe here. Did

> something happen that I missed.

>

> I'm sorry. Of course, being a KO I assume that it is 100 percent my fault.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Attention seeking behavior turns me off, and I tend to ignore it so I have no

idea what happened and why the dramatic exit was necessary. If they didn't feel

safe/validated/worshipped/whatever they could have just left without saying

anything. To me, even having a post like that is attention seeking. Reminds me

of my mothers antics too much.

I read the posts where people are looking for help, or are sharing experiences,

thats what interests me.

I have learned a LOT from this newsgroup that has helped me come to terms with

my life and has helped me in the growing process. But I also recognise that many

people are not in the same place I am. I see them as I was a good 20 years ago.

Still raw. But also still acting a lot like my own NADA, not quite recognizing

my own fleas that I need to deal with.

>

> I'm trying to figure out why and Ann don't feel safe here. Did

> something happen that I missed.

>

> I'm sorry. Of course, being a KO I assume that it is 100 percent my fault.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Attention seeking behavior turns me off, and I tend to ignore it so I have no

idea what happened and why the dramatic exit was necessary. If they didn't feel

safe/validated/worshipped/whatever they could have just left without saying

anything. To me, even having a post like that is attention seeking. Reminds me

of my mothers antics too much.

I read the posts where people are looking for help, or are sharing experiences,

thats what interests me.

I have learned a LOT from this newsgroup that has helped me come to terms with

my life and has helped me in the growing process. But I also recognise that many

people are not in the same place I am. I see them as I was a good 20 years ago.

Still raw. But also still acting a lot like my own NADA, not quite recognizing

my own fleas that I need to deal with.

>

> I'm trying to figure out why and Ann don't feel safe here. Did

> something happen that I missed.

>

> I'm sorry. Of course, being a KO I assume that it is 100 percent my fault.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say, only much more succinct ;-)

" Attention-seeking " for sure!

KT

>

> Attention seeking behavior turns me off, and I tend to ignore it so I have no

idea what happened and why the dramatic exit was necessary. If they didn't feel

safe/validated/worshipped/whatever they could have just left without saying

anything. To me, even having a post like that is attention seeking. Reminds me

of my mothers antics too much.

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Ann and WTO group,

I have not been following these threads closely, but I presume you are the Ann

in this subject line?

If so (and even if not), I would like to request that we stop commenting with

these names in the subject line. It seems a bit unkind at this point to me.

(I believe no harm was intended with the original subject line and responses;

just trying to identify the question and understand the situation.)

p.s. I, too, am concerned when people feel hurt, especially here, of all places.

I was nervous as a school girl when I saw the subject line: " To Our New

Members " . I was a very new member then and afraid I was " in trouble " again.

Definitely a flea/trigger for me. ;-)

-Coal Miner's Daughter

>

> noooo it is not all your fault.. people just seem to have to be negative and

critical lately on this board .. stick with it and it will pass i feel.. just

like life, it will have its ups and downs.ann

>

[Guest guest]

I think you are right about that...thanks for speaking up.

KT

>

I would like to request that we stop commenting with these names in the subject

line. It seems a bit unkind at this point to me.

>

> (I believe no harm was intended with the original subject line and responses;

just trying to identify the question and understand the situation.)

[Guest guest]

I think you are right about that...thanks for speaking up.

KT

>

I would like to request that we stop commenting with these names in the subject

line. It seems a bit unkind at this point to me.

>

> (I believe no harm was intended with the original subject line and responses;

just trying to identify the question and understand the situation.)

[Guest guest]

Just a couple of things to keep in mind folks.

1. We sometimes get BP s and drama queens in here.

2. KO s are often covered with fleas, and thus mimic some of the overly

dramatic behaviors of their nadas.

3. You are not responsible for other people, whether a nada, or a group

member. You are responsible for your own cordiality and politeness as

you express your views.

4. People will get pissed. You can t change it. Deal with it.

5. You are a KO. The FOG is always there. Never forget it. Take a

breath.

May we all heal.

Doug

> >

> > Attention seeking behavior turns me off, and I tend to ignore it so

I have no idea what happened and why the dramatic exit was necessary. If

they didn't feel safe/validated/worshipped/whatever they could have just

left without saying anything. To me, even having a post like that is

attention seeking. Reminds me of my mothers antics too much.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Just a couple of things to keep in mind folks.

1. We sometimes get BP s and drama queens in here.

2. KO s are often covered with fleas, and thus mimic some of the overly

dramatic behaviors of their nadas.

3. You are not responsible for other people, whether a nada, or a group

member. You are responsible for your own cordiality and politeness as

you express your views.

4. People will get pissed. You can t change it. Deal with it.

5. You are a KO. The FOG is always there. Never forget it. Take a

breath.

May we all heal.

Doug

> >

> > Attention seeking behavior turns me off, and I tend to ignore it so

I have no idea what happened and why the dramatic exit was necessary. If

they didn't feel safe/validated/worshipped/whatever they could have just

left without saying anything. To me, even having a post like that is

attention seeking. Reminds me of my mothers antics too much.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Girlscout, didnt your Momma warn you about hugging sailors?

But, oh, of course not. She was a nada.

Doug

>

> >

> >

> > Just a couple of things to keep in mind folks.

> >

> > 1. We sometimes get BP s and drama queens in here.

> > 2. KO s are often covered with fleas, and thus mimic some of the

overly

> > dramatic behaviors of their nadas.

> > 3. You are not responsible for other people, whether a nada, or a

group

> > member. You are responsible for your own cordiality and politeness

as

> > you express your views.

> > 4. People will get pissed. You can t change it. Deal with it.

> >

> > 5. You are a KO. The FOG is always there. Never forget it. Take a

> > breath.

> >

> > May we all heal.

> >

> > Doug

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Coal Miner's Daughter,I second your motion that it is time to stop commenting

with these two names in the subject line.

I am also absolutely certain that no harm whatsoever was intended with the

original subject line--in fact,the total opposite: the original poster was

sincerely concerned about the people here feeling upset.

I am sorry that my thread " A Message To Our Newer Members " was distressing

to you.That was a tough call for me to make,in deciding to post it to the

board,but I feel strongly that this message board needs to be a safe space where

the members can find acceptance for the working out of issues without undue

judgement.I tried to confine my comments to three issues I have seen come up

again and again during my time here: infant abuse,sexual abuse,how both relate

to having had a BPD parent--as well as what a sore spot it is for many of us to

be told *by others not from our own personal analysis* that our issues as nons

and our experiences as nons are the same as exhibiting the symptoms of BPD or

that those experiences would have automatically doomed us to " having " BPD.

This is a message board for people who self identify as NON BPD.Often the

members here are struggling with BPD fleas or questioning whether they

themselves might have acquired BPD or the traits of BPD from having been raised

and abused by a BPD parent.The choice to post those kinds of questions and

comments to the board is,I think,something that is best left to the individual

judgement of participating members.However,for another member to suggest that

someone here " has " (or would have) BPD because of certain abusive experiences in

childhood,is in my opinion,unhelpful and invalidating.We don't " accuse " other

members here of having BPD.None of us here are qualified to diagnose other

members.I would hope that if a member here posted about *their own* concerns of

possibly having BPD or having BPD traits or fleas that their concerns would be

met with compassion but that is very very different from having one member infer

from another member's post that they " seem like " a BPD or that the other

member's abuse issues/experiences would have " given " them BPD.

I hesitated to respond directly to the messages from a couple of newer

members who had globally linked sexual abuse and abuse in infancy with having

BPD because I honestly didn't--and don't now-- believe that either of them had

any malicious intent.I was concerned because often this message board is the one

place where people can go who either can't afford therapy or who haven't been

able to find a therapist who really " gets it " .I have been participating here for

a while and I have seen arguments start or people hurt because of posts that

were perceived as condemning judgement calls and although this message board

isn't about sexual abuse or abuse in infancy in particular because I know that

many members here have suffered such abuse as a direct result of having had a

BPD parent,I was concerned that those members would feel that this board isn't a

safe place to voice their experiences and pain if other members continued to

link sexual abuse/infant abuse with " having " BPD or with something negative.So I

felt the need to nip that in the bud before it resulted in an argument or hurt

feelings.

We share our personal experiences and stories here and we offer advice

based on what has worked for us in dealing with our BPD family members.If a

member here chooses *of their own volition* to post about concerns they

personally have about *their own* possible BPD or traits or fleas,that is like I

said a personal decision that I hope would be received here with compassion and

respect.But what we don't do here is make unqualified assumptions or global

generalizations about another member " having " BPD in any way shape or form.Nor

do we suggest that having issues such as sexual abuse or infant abuse make an

individual a priori dysfunctional or put a dooming/condemning spin on it.

My intention in starting that thread wasn't for new members to feel

unwelcome but to ensure that all of us here feel safe.We are kind of winging it

here since this group doesn't have an active facilitator.I guess the best way to

" police " ourselves here is to follow the golden rule: " If that was my

experience,how would I want to be treated? " Which I think you have adhered to

quite admirably in your posts and again I apologize for any unintended distress

caused by my thread.

>

> Dear Ann and WTO group,

>

> I have not been following these threads closely, but I presume you are the Ann

in this subject line?

>

> If so (and even if not), I would like to request that we stop commenting with

these names in the subject line. It seems a bit unkind at this point to me.

>

> (I believe no harm was intended with the original subject line and responses;

just trying to identify the question and understand the situation.)

>

> p.s. I, too, am concerned when people feel hurt, especially here, of all

places. I was nervous as a school girl when I saw the subject line: " To Our New

Members " . I was a very new member then and afraid I was " in trouble " again.

Definitely a flea/trigger for me. ;-)

>

> -Coal Miner's Daughter

[Guest guest]

Well, I m left handed too, so hug at your own risk Girl!

Left handed women? Inconcievable. You keep using that word. I do not

think it means what you think it means.

Doug

> > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Just a couple of things to keep in mind folks.

> > > >

> > > > 1. We sometimes get BP s and drama queens in here.

> > > > 2. KO s are often covered with fleas, and thus mimic some of the

> > overly

> > > > dramatic behaviors of their nadas.

> > > > 3. You are not responsible for other people, whether a nada, or

a

> > group

> > > > member. You are responsible for your own cordiality and

politeness

> > as

> > > > you express your views.

> > > > 4. People will get pissed. You can t change it. Deal with it.

> > > >

> > > > 5. You are a KO. The FOG is always there. Never forget it. Take

a

> > > > breath.

> > > >

> > > > May we all heal.

> > > >

> > > > Doug

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

Thank you for your post and explanation. I never thought of the possibility of

causing concern to the author of the post to newer members. I was using this as

an illustration of my reactivity and response to a personal trigger for me. At

home, I was always trying to keep from " getting in trouble, " so-to-speak.

I actually found your post helpful and informative; just the title was a trigger

for me. This helped me understand what everyone was talking about when they

said there are triggers in life or even in this group that might cause an

unexpected emotional reaction.

I don't have training or experience regarding infant abuse and neglect aside

from basic psychological concepts. Your points were well-made and appropriate

in my opinion.

Thank You,

Coal Miner's Daughter

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

Thank you for your post and explanation. I never thought of the possibility of

causing concern to the author of the post to newer members. I was using this as

an illustration of my reactivity and response to a personal trigger for me. At

home, I was always trying to keep from " getting in trouble, " so-to-speak.

I actually found your post helpful and informative; just the title was a trigger

for me. This helped me understand what everyone was talking about when they

said there are triggers in life or even in this group that might cause an

unexpected emotional reaction.

I don't have training or experience regarding infant abuse and neglect aside

from basic psychological concepts. Your points were well-made and appropriate

in my opinion.

Thank You,

Coal Miner's Daughter