Re: Are nada's conscious of their actions??

[Guest guest]

My nada is the same.

She sometimes triggers into a rage, and when Sister and I were little I think

she might even have dissociated in her rages. She has definitely had more than

a couple of stress-related paranoid episodes and hysterical (crying upset)

episodes also, since I've been an adult. I think the bpd portion of my mother's

disorder lends itself to rages, cognitive distortion (skewed perception of what

others have said or done, tending to interpret things negatively) and emotional

dysregulation (no emotional rheostat, responding with inappropriate and extreme

levels of rage or hysteria to ordinary, everyday stressors) and I think these

things are due to a misfiring brain: an actual organic brain issue of some kind.

On the other hand, my nada *also* can wait, and plan to say and do hurtful

things. Waiting and planning require active reasoning thought, sort of the

opposite of the mood swings and cognitive distortion of bpd. I think her stewing

about things and planning and executing revenge-type behaviors, manipulative

behaviors, and insulting behaviors are due to narcissistic pd or even antisocial

pd traits. Being manipulative and being revengeful are calculated and

deliberate, not an " oops! " triggered reaction.

So, its a conundrum. I don't have an answer.

-Annie

>

> Do our nada's aware of how they treat others and how its so hurtful or are

they totoally blind to it. do what degree does their disorder affect them to do

things uncontrollably and what extent do they know exactly what they doing?

there are times its easier to get over her hurtful words and actions cos i think

to myself she suffers mentally from an illness, but other times it seems like

she is conscious of everything she does and says...and at times very calculated.

>

[Guest guest]

With my nada, I think she is very aware of what she does. It is deliberate, and

she has a purpose in everything she says and does, even though a lot of it is

driven by paranoid delusions. She knows people think she is crazy, she knows

people think she is a bad parent, but to her that only proves that they are

evil, stupid people who deserve to get yelled at.

However, I dont think she understands the concept of hurting others. Its simply

something that " doesnt compute " with her.

Children crying = disobedient and not listening.

adults getting mad = they are being mean and must be horrible people.

adults saying they are hurt = they are trying to manipulate me and are evil.

adult pushed to crying by my screaming = they finally got the point.

The concept of actually hurting someone elses feelings doesnt seem to occur to

her. She is the only one capable of being offended by anything. My sister is

exactly the same in this respect - from a young age I have noticed how she is

incapable of putting herself in someone elses shoes - she just isnt capable of

it.

>

> Do our nada's aware of how they treat others and how its so hurtful or are

they totoally blind to it. do what degree does their disorder affect them to do

things uncontrollably and what extent do they know exactly what they doing?

there are times its easier to get over her hurtful words and actions cos i think

to myself she suffers mentally from an illness, but other times it seems like

she is conscious of everything she does and says...and at times very calculated.

>

[Guest guest]

With my nada, I think she is very aware of what she does. It is deliberate, and

she has a purpose in everything she says and does, even though a lot of it is

driven by paranoid delusions. She knows people think she is crazy, she knows

people think she is a bad parent, but to her that only proves that they are

evil, stupid people who deserve to get yelled at.

However, I dont think she understands the concept of hurting others. Its simply

something that " doesnt compute " with her.

Children crying = disobedient and not listening.

adults getting mad = they are being mean and must be horrible people.

adults saying they are hurt = they are trying to manipulate me and are evil.

adult pushed to crying by my screaming = they finally got the point.

The concept of actually hurting someone elses feelings doesnt seem to occur to

her. She is the only one capable of being offended by anything. My sister is

exactly the same in this respect - from a young age I have noticed how she is

incapable of putting herself in someone elses shoes - she just isnt capable of

it.

>

> Do our nada's aware of how they treat others and how its so hurtful or are

they totoally blind to it. do what degree does their disorder affect them to do

things uncontrollably and what extent do they know exactly what they doing?

there are times its easier to get over her hurtful words and actions cos i think

to myself she suffers mentally from an illness, but other times it seems like

she is conscious of everything she does and says...and at times very calculated.

>

[Guest guest]

I think their behavior is a combination of intended and

unintended results, at least that seems to be the case with my

nada. A lot of the damage she's done has happened as a side

effect of her trying to get what she wants without paying

attention to what other consequences her actions might cause.

She's also done plenty of damage that seemed to be intended

though. Doing things like kicking my sister out of her house at

2 AM with just the clothes on her back and her purse and no

means of transportation other than her feet wasn't just

collateral damage. That being said, I don't think she rationally

thinks through a lot of the bad stuff she does. Her emotions get

out of control and she snaps and does evil things. I think our

nadas can control their actions but I don't think they can

control the thought patterns that lead them to take those

actions. I think their decision-making abilities are broken by

their inability to regulate their emotions. They feel attacked

by things that no rational person would think twice about, so

they lash out at times and in ways that no rational person would

lash out.

At 08:38 PM 11/16/2010 haleh wrote:

>Do our nada's aware of how they treat others and how its so

>hurtful or are they totoally blind to it. do what degree does

>their disorder affect them to do things uncontrollably and what

>extent do they know exactly what they doing? there are times

>its easier to get over her hurtful words and actions cos i

>think to myself she suffers mentally from an illness, but other

>times it seems like she is conscious of everything she does and

>says...and at times very calculated.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

My mother is certainly aware when she is being hurtful, but I don't think she

understands how really egregious her behavior is. She has no standard for

" normal " . For her, the world is assaulting her non-stop. So, yeah, she does see

that she's hurting people, but to her, that's just how people communicate and

behave when they're angry. I'm pretty sure that to her, my saying, " No, Mom, I

can't come to the baby shower of someone I barely know/talk on the phone six

times a day/take a vacation with you in the middle of the semester, " sounds a

lot like, " Go fuck yourself, you worthless piece of shit. " So responding with

manipulation/threats/other horrible stuff is just giving the person back what

she sees them as giving her.

What she's definitely NOT aware of is the fact that her thinking is disordered.

She has NO awareness of the fact that nobody else in our family fights with each

other the way she fights with them, that she blames everyone for her problems,

but none of us ever blame her for anything. She has no awareness that in fact,

we aren't all constantly neglecting or abusing her. She truly does not realize

that she never takes responsibility for her actions, or that there is a pattern

to her behavior.

>

> Do our nada's aware of how they treat others and how its so hurtful or are

they totoally blind to it. do what degree does their disorder affect them to do

things uncontrollably and what extent do they know exactly what they doing?

there are times its easier to get over her hurtful words and actions cos i think

to myself she suffers mentally from an illness, but other times it seems like

she is conscious of everything she does and says...and at times very calculated.

>

[Guest guest]

Wow! Extremely well-said.

I appreciated the " translation " . This actually makes a lot of sense to me and

would explain some things.

>

> My mother is certainly aware when she is being hurtful, but I don't think she

understands how really egregious her behavior is. She has no standard for

" normal " . For her, the world is assaulting her non-stop. So, yeah, she does see

that she's hurting people, but to her, that's just how people communicate and

behave when they're angry. I'm pretty sure that to her, my saying, " No, Mom, I

can't come to the baby shower of someone I barely know/talk on the phone six

times a day/take a vacation with you in the middle of the semester, " sounds a

lot like, " Go fuck yourself, you worthless piece of shit. " So responding with

manipulation/threats/other horrible stuff is just giving the person back what

she sees them as giving her.

>

> What she's definitely NOT aware of is the fact that her thinking is

disordered. She has NO awareness of the fact that nobody else in our family

fights with each other the way she fights with them, that she blames everyone

for her problems, but none of us ever blame her for anything. She has no

awareness that in fact, we aren't all constantly neglecting or abusing her. She

truly does not realize that she never takes responsibility for her actions, or

that there is a pattern to her behavior.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wow! Extremely well-said.

I appreciated the " translation " . This actually makes a lot of sense to me and

would explain some things.

>

> My mother is certainly aware when she is being hurtful, but I don't think she

understands how really egregious her behavior is. She has no standard for

" normal " . For her, the world is assaulting her non-stop. So, yeah, she does see

that she's hurting people, but to her, that's just how people communicate and

behave when they're angry. I'm pretty sure that to her, my saying, " No, Mom, I

can't come to the baby shower of someone I barely know/talk on the phone six

times a day/take a vacation with you in the middle of the semester, " sounds a

lot like, " Go fuck yourself, you worthless piece of shit. " So responding with

manipulation/threats/other horrible stuff is just giving the person back what

she sees them as giving her.

>

> What she's definitely NOT aware of is the fact that her thinking is

disordered. She has NO awareness of the fact that nobody else in our family

fights with each other the way she fights with them, that she blames everyone

for her problems, but none of us ever blame her for anything. She has no

awareness that in fact, we aren't all constantly neglecting or abusing her. She

truly does not realize that she never takes responsibility for her actions, or

that there is a pattern to her behavior.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree, I too think you wrote a very accurate assessment of how a lot of bpd

people view the world: as a constant assault, so the person with bpd is just

giving back as good as they're getting.

What you wrote demonstrates what " cognitive distortion " is: a skewed way of

perceiving incoming information that puts a negative, rejecting spin on things.

In a non-emergency situation, a simple, " Sorry but I can't come over right now;

how about tomorrow afternoon? " is perceived by the bpd person as: " Fuck off, you

worthless piece of shit. " So that insulting rejection triggers the bpd person

into a rage, or a crying jag, or hysteria or some other emotionally dysregulated

reaction.

That dysfunctional system: perceiving the world negatively (cognitive

distortion) plus reacting extremely (emotional dysregulation) seems to be a core

facet of bpd.

Thing is, with my nada, even if things were going along relatively smoothly, she

would actually *create* drama. When I was growing up, it seemed to me that she

would deliberately pick fights with my dad, and he'd eventually speak up and

defend himself, and then the fight was on! Then when I was becoming a teen and

young adult, she started doing that to me, too. Pick, pick, pick, pick, pick...

until I had to say something to defend myself, which then gave her the excuse to

have a full-blown rage at me.

As though having horrible, ugly, soul-crushing fights with your loved ones was

" communicating " with them, and " normal. " Growing up with that gave me an ulcer.

But anyway, back to the main point: I think their brains are messed up in the

areas specifically involving perceiving and expressing emotion, and in many

cases to such a degree that their dysfunction ends up doing real damage to the

unfortunate children in their care.

Makes me wonder: bpd is almost like having severe pms constantly or going

through severe menopause symptoms constantly. I wonder if the bpd brain has a

constant tidal wave of pms/menopause hormones flooding it? Could that be the

problem?

-Annie

> >

> > My mother is certainly aware when she is being hurtful, but I don't think

she understands how really egregious her behavior is. She has no standard for

" normal " . For her, the world is assaulting her non-stop. So, yeah, she does see

that she's hurting people, but to her, that's just how people communicate and

behave when they're angry. I'm pretty sure that to her, my saying, " No, Mom, I

can't come to the baby shower of someone I barely know/talk on the phone six

times a day/take a vacation with you in the middle of the semester, " sounds a

lot like, " Go fuck yourself, you worthless piece of shit. " So responding with

manipulation/threats/other horrible stuff is just giving the person back what

she sees them as giving her.

> >

> > What she's definitely NOT aware of is the fact that her thinking is

disordered. She has NO awareness of the fact that nobody else in our family

fights with each other the way she fights with them, that she blames everyone

for her problems, but none of us ever blame her for anything. She has no

awareness that in fact, we aren't all constantly neglecting or abusing her. She

truly does not realize that she never takes responsibility for her actions, or

that there is a pattern to her behavior.

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the kind words, Ladies!

" Thing is, with my nada, even if things were going along relatively smoothly,

she

would actually *create* drama. "

Annie, this is true of mine as well. I think this is most likely because she

never trusts good times, and creating drama is my mom's way of exerting some

control over a situation; after all, if the good times are definitely going to

end eventually, she can decide when instead of waiting for someone else to

sabotage her. And since, as you've eloquently pointed out, they feel " empty "

inside, no period of peace is ever fulfilling enough for more than a short time,

and she needs to " test " us all again.

I can't speak to your question about hormones, although if the medical community

paid the attention to this disease that it needs to, it should be easy enough to

conduct some kind of study. I know that even in my worst bouts of PMS, I have

never rivaled one of Mom's rages! And I'm AWARE that I'm being irrational. I

tell my husband, " I'll be fine tomorrow; just ignore me today! "

> > >

> > > My mother is certainly aware when she is being hurtful, but I don't think

she understands how really egregious her behavior is. She has no standard for

" normal " . For her, the world is assaulting her non-stop. So, yeah, she does see

that she's hurting people, but to her, that's just how people communicate and

behave when they're angry. I'm pretty sure that to her, my saying, " No, Mom, I

can't come to the baby shower of someone I barely know/talk on the phone six

times a day/take a vacation with you in the middle of the semester, " sounds a

lot like, " Go fuck yourself, you worthless piece of shit. " So responding with

manipulation/threats/other horrible stuff is just giving the person back what

she sees them as giving her.

> > >

> > > What she's definitely NOT aware of is the fact that her thinking is

disordered. She has NO awareness of the fact that nobody else in our family

fights with each other the way she fights with them, that she blames everyone

for her problems, but none of us ever blame her for anything. She has no

awareness that in fact, we aren't all constantly neglecting or abusing her. She

truly does not realize that she never takes responsibility for her actions, or

that there is a pattern to her behavior.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the kind words, Ladies!

" Thing is, with my nada, even if things were going along relatively smoothly,

she

would actually *create* drama. "

Annie, this is true of mine as well. I think this is most likely because she

never trusts good times, and creating drama is my mom's way of exerting some

control over a situation; after all, if the good times are definitely going to

end eventually, she can decide when instead of waiting for someone else to

sabotage her. And since, as you've eloquently pointed out, they feel " empty "

inside, no period of peace is ever fulfilling enough for more than a short time,

and she needs to " test " us all again.

I can't speak to your question about hormones, although if the medical community

paid the attention to this disease that it needs to, it should be easy enough to

conduct some kind of study. I know that even in my worst bouts of PMS, I have

never rivaled one of Mom's rages! And I'm AWARE that I'm being irrational. I

tell my husband, " I'll be fine tomorrow; just ignore me today! "

> > >

> > > My mother is certainly aware when she is being hurtful, but I don't think

she understands how really egregious her behavior is. She has no standard for

" normal " . For her, the world is assaulting her non-stop. So, yeah, she does see

that she's hurting people, but to her, that's just how people communicate and

behave when they're angry. I'm pretty sure that to her, my saying, " No, Mom, I

can't come to the baby shower of someone I barely know/talk on the phone six

times a day/take a vacation with you in the middle of the semester, " sounds a

lot like, " Go fuck yourself, you worthless piece of shit. " So responding with

manipulation/threats/other horrible stuff is just giving the person back what

she sees them as giving her.

> > >

> > > What she's definitely NOT aware of is the fact that her thinking is

disordered. She has NO awareness of the fact that nobody else in our family

fights with each other the way she fights with them, that she blames everyone

for her problems, but none of us ever blame her for anything. She has no

awareness that in fact, we aren't all constantly neglecting or abusing her. She

truly does not realize that she never takes responsibility for her actions, or

that there is a pattern to her behavior.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

My nada is totally aware of what she's doing but she feels completely justified.

How people feel is just not important. If she chooses to stop talking to us for

days, we're supposed to just ignore it. We try but it's hard when it falls on

Christmas or the day after we've had a fairly normal visit with her. She

randomly decides she doesn't want to talk to us for a week. Sometimes it's

because she's gotten upset over some imagined thing and sometimes it's just

because she doesn't want to be around us. Example: one day at lunch she insisted

on paying for lunch then wanted to give me all the change. I politely declined,

said she already paid for lunch, she didn't need to give me the leftover money

too. A few days later she was mad at me because " all you mentioned was how I

paid for lunch. What about all the other things I do for you? Don't they count? "

When she complained about us taking advantage of her financially, she never

thought of the consequences (that we would have to deal with Adult Protection

Services). She was just griping because she couldn't understand her own bank

accounts no matter how many times we explained them to her and made up charts

for her. She still blames us. Then she got mad when she found out we had to deal

with APS. Blamed it on other people. She never made the connection that her

complaints started the ball rolling.

>

> Do our nada's aware of how they treat others and how its so hurtful or are

they totoally blind to it. do what degree does their disorder affect them to do

things uncontrollably and what extent do they know exactly what they doing?

there are times its easier to get over her hurtful words and actions cos i think

to myself she suffers mentally from an illness, but other times it seems like

she is conscious of everything she does and says...and at times very calculated.

>

[Guest guest]

My nada is totally aware of what she's doing but she feels completely justified.

How people feel is just not important. If she chooses to stop talking to us for

days, we're supposed to just ignore it. We try but it's hard when it falls on

Christmas or the day after we've had a fairly normal visit with her. She

randomly decides she doesn't want to talk to us for a week. Sometimes it's

because she's gotten upset over some imagined thing and sometimes it's just

because she doesn't want to be around us. Example: one day at lunch she insisted

on paying for lunch then wanted to give me all the change. I politely declined,

said she already paid for lunch, she didn't need to give me the leftover money

too. A few days later she was mad at me because " all you mentioned was how I

paid for lunch. What about all the other things I do for you? Don't they count? "

When she complained about us taking advantage of her financially, she never

thought of the consequences (that we would have to deal with Adult Protection

Services). She was just griping because she couldn't understand her own bank

accounts no matter how many times we explained them to her and made up charts

for her. She still blames us. Then she got mad when she found out we had to deal

with APS. Blamed it on other people. She never made the connection that her

complaints started the ball rolling.

>

> Do our nada's aware of how they treat others and how its so hurtful or are

they totoally blind to it. do what degree does their disorder affect them to do

things uncontrollably and what extent do they know exactly what they doing?

there are times its easier to get over her hurtful words and actions cos i think

to myself she suffers mentally from an illness, but other times it seems like

she is conscious of everything she does and says...and at times very calculated.

>

[Guest guest]

That's true: a relatively mentally healthy person has the self-awareness and

ability to perceive that sudden mood swings and irritability *aren't normal* and

are coming from some condition like pms or menopause.

When I was about 25, after a few months I (apparently) developed an allergy to a

diet smoothie I'd started using. The allergic reaction took the form of

swelling up (water retention), so much so that I could barely bend my fingers

and my throat started closing up, but the very first symptom, as it turned out,

was overwhelming sadness *for no reason*. I called my best friend and said,

while crying, " This is so weird! I have nothing at all to be upset about, but I

can't stop crying! I don't know what's wrong with me! " Then when my hands and

throat (really, all of me) started swelling up, I took myself to the emergency

room and they treated me with antihistamines and diuretics; when I started

losing the excess water, my inexplicable sadness went away too.

So, just having too much water retention that *presses on the brain* can cause

uncharacteristic, bizarre mood swings!!

Makes me wonder again: is it possible that bpd brains are being affected by too

much water retention that causes fear, anxiety, apprehension, sadness or

irritability (I notice that all the moods listed as symptoms of moderate or

severe allergic reaction are *negative*)??

Studies!! We need studies on these theories!! Even ruling out what *isn't*

related to or causing personality disorder is useful!!

-Annie

> I can't speak to your question about hormones, although if the medical

community paid the attention to this disease that it needs to, it should be easy

enough to conduct some kind of study. I know that even in my worst bouts of PMS,

I have never rivaled one of Mom's rages! And I'm AWARE that I'm being

irrational. I tell my husband, " I'll be fine tomorrow; just ignore me today! "

[Guest guest]

That's true: a relatively mentally healthy person has the self-awareness and

ability to perceive that sudden mood swings and irritability *aren't normal* and

are coming from some condition like pms or menopause.

When I was about 25, after a few months I (apparently) developed an allergy to a

diet smoothie I'd started using. The allergic reaction took the form of

swelling up (water retention), so much so that I could barely bend my fingers

and my throat started closing up, but the very first symptom, as it turned out,

was overwhelming sadness *for no reason*. I called my best friend and said,

while crying, " This is so weird! I have nothing at all to be upset about, but I

can't stop crying! I don't know what's wrong with me! " Then when my hands and

throat (really, all of me) started swelling up, I took myself to the emergency

room and they treated me with antihistamines and diuretics; when I started

losing the excess water, my inexplicable sadness went away too.

So, just having too much water retention that *presses on the brain* can cause

uncharacteristic, bizarre mood swings!!

Makes me wonder again: is it possible that bpd brains are being affected by too

much water retention that causes fear, anxiety, apprehension, sadness or

irritability (I notice that all the moods listed as symptoms of moderate or

severe allergic reaction are *negative*)??

Studies!! We need studies on these theories!! Even ruling out what *isn't*

related to or causing personality disorder is useful!!

-Annie

> I can't speak to your question about hormones, although if the medical

community paid the attention to this disease that it needs to, it should be easy

enough to conduct some kind of study. I know that even in my worst bouts of PMS,

I have never rivaled one of Mom's rages! And I'm AWARE that I'm being

irrational. I tell my husband, " I'll be fine tomorrow; just ignore me today! "

[Guest guest]

That's true: a relatively mentally healthy person has the self-awareness and

ability to perceive that sudden mood swings and irritability *aren't normal* and

are coming from some condition like pms or menopause.

When I was about 25, after a few months I (apparently) developed an allergy to a

diet smoothie I'd started using. The allergic reaction took the form of

swelling up (water retention), so much so that I could barely bend my fingers

and my throat started closing up, but the very first symptom, as it turned out,

was overwhelming sadness *for no reason*. I called my best friend and said,

while crying, " This is so weird! I have nothing at all to be upset about, but I

can't stop crying! I don't know what's wrong with me! " Then when my hands and

throat (really, all of me) started swelling up, I took myself to the emergency

room and they treated me with antihistamines and diuretics; when I started

losing the excess water, my inexplicable sadness went away too.

So, just having too much water retention that *presses on the brain* can cause

uncharacteristic, bizarre mood swings!!

Makes me wonder again: is it possible that bpd brains are being affected by too

much water retention that causes fear, anxiety, apprehension, sadness or

irritability (I notice that all the moods listed as symptoms of moderate or

severe allergic reaction are *negative*)??

Studies!! We need studies on these theories!! Even ruling out what *isn't*

related to or causing personality disorder is useful!!

-Annie

> I can't speak to your question about hormones, although if the medical

community paid the attention to this disease that it needs to, it should be easy

enough to conduct some kind of study. I know that even in my worst bouts of PMS,

I have never rivaled one of Mom's rages! And I'm AWARE that I'm being

irrational. I tell my husband, " I'll be fine tomorrow; just ignore me today! "