Re: BPDs and Hoarding?

[Guest guest]

You know, I never really considered it before! But yes, my nada would collect

hobby items. Way beyond what would be normal.

They all would be hidden in guest rooms or dens or attics. The outward

appearance of her home in uncluttered--but open a door and there it is, all

hidden away.

She also spends like crazy, on some of the weirdest junk. Or she buys in twos

(bread machines, blenders, etc.)

>

> I'm sorry if there's already a thread on this somewhere, but I looked around

and didn't see any.

>

> I'm wondering if anyone else's BPD parent(s) had a problem with hoarding. I

figure, at its extremes, this behavior definitely qualifies as a " potentially

self-harming behavior " listing in the DSM criteria.

>

> In my mother's case, I've always assumed her hoarding was a dysfunctional

reaction to having been very poor as a child, and seeing things she loved get

taken away from her. Interestingly, she rationalizes her spending by almost

always buying second-hand or on sale. But then, she spends so much money that

she might as well have bought one or two full price, brand new items rather than

5 or 6 kind of crappy tag sale or clearance items! Her house is always dark,

cluttered, and messy; my non-BPD father enabled her by buying two 8X8X20

shipping containers and putting them in the backyard. They are full of junk.

>

> As a child, my brother and I were always blamed for how messy the house was,

but now I see that no one could have kept such a cluttered house clean. To clean

properly, you have to be able to throw at least some things away once in a

while!

>

> Any one else? Bueller?

>

[Guest guest]

My nada (a very high-functioning bpd) also likes to buy large amounts of

secondhand stuff, sale items, bargains, and go " treasure hunting " at garage

sales, but because she is also obsessively neat, clean and organized all her

" stuff " is neatly organized and labeled in storage boxes. Her closets are full

of season-coordinated and color-coordinated clothes.

How many different pair of pink slacks and pink shoes can one woman possibly

need, I ask you? Last time I looked it seemed my nada had about a dozen pair of

pink slacks in varying shades, and shoes to go with them. Her jewelry " box " is

the size of a small refrigerator and its full of color-coordinated costume

jewelry, most of which she never wears.

I read somewhere that hoarding is a symptom of obsessive-compulsive personality

disorder; I'll see if I can find the link to that article.

Its not uncommon for an individual to have more than one personality disorder at

the same time. I'm pretty sure my nada has both bpd and narcissistic pd, and

now I'm leaning towards her having obsessive-compulsive personality disorder as

well: that's where the perfectionism, rigidity, dominating/controlling behaviors

and obsession with being hyper-clean and hyper-organized comes from, I think.

I'm no psychologist, its just me speculating " out loud " .

If you've watched the TV show " Hoarders " , some of them hoard as a replacement

for having relationships with people. ( " My kids aren't here all the time, but my

stuff is " said one woman.) Some do it because the walls and mountains of

" stuff " makes them feel safe, as though they are accumulating " wealth. " Some do

it because its all under their own control, its " their " stuff. One woman

hoarded spoiled, rotten food because she didn't want to be dependent on others

for anything. One woman hoarded cats because " they needed her " , yet the

clean-up crew founds dozens of dead cat carcasses in her home and on her

property that she never even knew she had. Its pretty sad, the hoarding

behavior.

-Annie

>

> I'm sorry if there's already a thread on this somewhere, but I looked around

and didn't see any.

>

> I'm wondering if anyone else's BPD parent(s) had a problem with hoarding. I

figure, at its extremes, this behavior definitely qualifies as a " potentially

self-harming behavior " listing in the DSM criteria.

>

> In my mother's case, I've always assumed her hoarding was a dysfunctional

reaction to having been very poor as a child, and seeing things she loved get

taken away from her. Interestingly, she rationalizes her spending by almost

always buying second-hand or on sale. But then, she spends so much money that

she might as well have bought one or two full price, brand new items rather than

5 or 6 kind of crappy tag sale or clearance items! Her house is always dark,

cluttered, and messy; my non-BPD father enabled her by buying two 8X8X20

shipping containers and putting them in the backyard. They are full of junk.

>

> As a child, my brother and I were always blamed for how messy the house was,

but now I see that no one could have kept such a cluttered house clean. To clean

properly, you have to be able to throw at least some things away once in a

while!

>

> Any one else? Bueller?

>

[Guest guest]

My nada (a very high-functioning bpd) also likes to buy large amounts of

secondhand stuff, sale items, bargains, and go " treasure hunting " at garage

sales, but because she is also obsessively neat, clean and organized all her

" stuff " is neatly organized and labeled in storage boxes. Her closets are full

of season-coordinated and color-coordinated clothes.

How many different pair of pink slacks and pink shoes can one woman possibly

need, I ask you? Last time I looked it seemed my nada had about a dozen pair of

pink slacks in varying shades, and shoes to go with them. Her jewelry " box " is

the size of a small refrigerator and its full of color-coordinated costume

jewelry, most of which she never wears.

I read somewhere that hoarding is a symptom of obsessive-compulsive personality

disorder; I'll see if I can find the link to that article.

Its not uncommon for an individual to have more than one personality disorder at

the same time. I'm pretty sure my nada has both bpd and narcissistic pd, and

now I'm leaning towards her having obsessive-compulsive personality disorder as

well: that's where the perfectionism, rigidity, dominating/controlling behaviors

and obsession with being hyper-clean and hyper-organized comes from, I think.

I'm no psychologist, its just me speculating " out loud " .

If you've watched the TV show " Hoarders " , some of them hoard as a replacement

for having relationships with people. ( " My kids aren't here all the time, but my

stuff is " said one woman.) Some do it because the walls and mountains of

" stuff " makes them feel safe, as though they are accumulating " wealth. " Some do

it because its all under their own control, its " their " stuff. One woman

hoarded spoiled, rotten food because she didn't want to be dependent on others

for anything. One woman hoarded cats because " they needed her " , yet the

clean-up crew founds dozens of dead cat carcasses in her home and on her

property that she never even knew she had. Its pretty sad, the hoarding

behavior.

-Annie

>

> I'm sorry if there's already a thread on this somewhere, but I looked around

and didn't see any.

>

> I'm wondering if anyone else's BPD parent(s) had a problem with hoarding. I

figure, at its extremes, this behavior definitely qualifies as a " potentially

self-harming behavior " listing in the DSM criteria.

>

> In my mother's case, I've always assumed her hoarding was a dysfunctional

reaction to having been very poor as a child, and seeing things she loved get

taken away from her. Interestingly, she rationalizes her spending by almost

always buying second-hand or on sale. But then, she spends so much money that

she might as well have bought one or two full price, brand new items rather than

5 or 6 kind of crappy tag sale or clearance items! Her house is always dark,

cluttered, and messy; my non-BPD father enabled her by buying two 8X8X20

shipping containers and putting them in the backyard. They are full of junk.

>

> As a child, my brother and I were always blamed for how messy the house was,

but now I see that no one could have kept such a cluttered house clean. To clean

properly, you have to be able to throw at least some things away once in a

while!

>

> Any one else? Bueller?

>

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure, when something is 'frugal' and when it's 'hoarding'. Mine

definitely is on the way extreme side of frugal. Except that she's not frugal,

she just buys cheap things and never throws them out. But she's always cash poor

because she's always spending money. There's a whole other tangent there.

So - yes to holding on to things (40 yr old christmas placemats anyone?) and a

dirty house full of stuff.

-tre

PS I love the image of two shipping containers full of stuff in the backyard.

Eeek!

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure, when something is 'frugal' and when it's 'hoarding'. Mine

definitely is on the way extreme side of frugal. Except that she's not frugal,

she just buys cheap things and never throws them out. But she's always cash poor

because she's always spending money. There's a whole other tangent there.

So - yes to holding on to things (40 yr old christmas placemats anyone?) and a

dirty house full of stuff.

-tre

PS I love the image of two shipping containers full of stuff in the backyard.

Eeek!

[Guest guest]

Yes, yes, yes!

Can hardly move around for all the junk.

Almost everything bought in pairs or sets. 2 of the exact same pants, the same

shirt in red, blue, and green, etc.

>

> You know, I never really considered it before! But yes, my nada would collect

hobby items. Way beyond what would be normal.

>

> They all would be hidden in guest rooms or dens or attics. The outward

appearance of her home in uncluttered--but open a door and there it is, all

hidden away.

>

> She also spends like crazy, on some of the weirdest junk. Or she buys in twos

(bread machines, blenders, etc.)

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nada was , before her death, a hoarder in the extreme. Frugality

means not wasting that which you need, and not buying that which you don

t. My grandmother, who lived thru the depression, would never throw

away bread wrappers or plastic food containers.

Mom/nada on the other hand, was at an entirely different level.

As I was growing up there was always a mess and way too much " stuff "

around. Boxes never got unpacked, and we had enough dishes and pans for

3 or 4 families.

After she was living alone and a pastor, she moved frequently to

different churches. There was always entire rooms filled with stuff,

furniture, clothes, books, papers, magazines, yard sale treasure,

collectibles, just whatever she put her hands on.

She would collect free stuff, buy stuff and yard sales and flea markets,

buy whatever she took a notion she needed. If owls were her obsession,

she would have not a couple owls, but hundreds. When I cleaned out her

house after her death, I would find dozens of identical baskets, or

holders for things, none of which had ever been used. She kept things

for the sake of having the things. But as my wife noted as I was

dealing with this after mom s death, for all this stuff she had

nothing.

When she retired, it had reached epic proportions. She had 3 storage

buildings, full, and her home was not livable. At one point during a

hospitalization, we managed to get permission for my cousin and me to go

and clean. It was horrible.

There was no room in the house which did not have garbage bags of stuff

stacked 2 or 3 deep from wall to wall. The smell was nauseating. We

rented a U haul trailer and carried a ton, ( literally, 2000 lbs, ) of

stuff, not furniture, just bags of shit, to the dump. We found pans

filled with rotting food that had been packed and shipped dirty. We

found mildewed clothing, packed wet, and not even her clothes, just

clothing she would pick up from anywhere. Once , a landlord had a

family skip out in the middle of the night. He put their stuff in the

yard. Nada came by and got all the clothing and took it home.

We found dried dog feces all over. I was just beyond description. She

had reached the point where she was sleeping in her car outside her door

because her apartment was so nasty. She tried to FOG me into letting

her stay with me. Awful guilt! I let her stay a month, after agreeing

to 2 weeks. She began to bring her hoarding stuff into my house and

stack it up here. So I got to be the bad guy , having to say you have

to leave.

Ahhhh! Shit. No one should ever have to say to their mother, you can t

stay with me, you have to get out! But that is the God awful position

she put me in. That, my dear friends, is what it means to us to have ,

or to have had, a nada. We ARE placed in situations we never should

have to face with our own mothers.

And that is why we are so F....ed up!

( Sorry I havent posted for a bit , friends. Keeping an eye on some

great threads and posts, but work and remodeling and depression have

been taking thier toll. )

May we all heal,

Doug

[Guest guest]

((((Doug))))

You have hit the nail on the head. Here we are, feeling guilty for just

defending ourselves from abuse. Its like feeling guilty for raising your arm

over your face to deflect a blow.

That is the legacy of having a mentally ill, abusive parent: misplaced,

inappropriate guilt for just wanting a normal life.

But our own parents put us in that no-win situation: " Sacrifice yourself for ME,

your mother, and I will absolve you of guilt; or choose to have your own,

separate, normal adult life and torment yourself with guilt forever. "

Its an unfair choice they force us to make.

The only way to deal with it is to accept that they, as adults, *always* had the

choice to seek psychiatric help *and chose not to* over and over again, during

our growing-up years and into our adulthood. It was always their choice to

avoid self-examination, avoid responsibility for their own behaviors, and avoid

therapy.

Instead, they chose to blame other people for their problems and *demanded* to

be rescued, over and over. That's the equivalent of latching onto a rescuer and

drowning the rescuer in order to avoid drowning themselves, instead of any

number of other choices: don't go in the water, learn to swim, wear a life-vest,

grab the life-preserver thrown to you, etc., etc.

When we can shift the heavy load of guilt and blame back onto the shoulders of

the person it rightfully belongs to, I think we can start to heal.

-Annie

Awful guilt! I let her stay a month, after agreeing

> to 2 weeks. She began to bring her hoarding stuff into my house and

> stack it up here. So I got to be the bad guy , having to say you have

> to leave.

>

> Ahhhh! Shit. No one should ever have to say to their mother, you can t

> stay with me, you have to get out! But that is the God awful position

> she put me in. That, my dear friends, is what it means to us to have ,

> or to have had, a nada. We ARE placed in situations we never should

> have to face with our own mothers.

>

> And that is why we are so F....ed up!

>

[Guest guest]

((((Doug))))

You have hit the nail on the head. Here we are, feeling guilty for just

defending ourselves from abuse. Its like feeling guilty for raising your arm

over your face to deflect a blow.

That is the legacy of having a mentally ill, abusive parent: misplaced,

inappropriate guilt for just wanting a normal life.

But our own parents put us in that no-win situation: " Sacrifice yourself for ME,

your mother, and I will absolve you of guilt; or choose to have your own,

separate, normal adult life and torment yourself with guilt forever. "

Its an unfair choice they force us to make.

The only way to deal with it is to accept that they, as adults, *always* had the

choice to seek psychiatric help *and chose not to* over and over again, during

our growing-up years and into our adulthood. It was always their choice to

avoid self-examination, avoid responsibility for their own behaviors, and avoid

therapy.

Instead, they chose to blame other people for their problems and *demanded* to

be rescued, over and over. That's the equivalent of latching onto a rescuer and

drowning the rescuer in order to avoid drowning themselves, instead of any

number of other choices: don't go in the water, learn to swim, wear a life-vest,

grab the life-preserver thrown to you, etc., etc.

When we can shift the heavy load of guilt and blame back onto the shoulders of

the person it rightfully belongs to, I think we can start to heal.

-Annie

Awful guilt! I let her stay a month, after agreeing

> to 2 weeks. She began to bring her hoarding stuff into my house and

> stack it up here. So I got to be the bad guy , having to say you have

> to leave.

>

> Ahhhh! Shit. No one should ever have to say to their mother, you can t

> stay with me, you have to get out! But that is the God awful position

> she put me in. That, my dear friends, is what it means to us to have ,

> or to have had, a nada. We ARE placed in situations we never should

> have to face with our own mothers.

>

> And that is why we are so F....ed up!

>

[Guest guest]

((((Doug))))

You have hit the nail on the head. Here we are, feeling guilty for just

defending ourselves from abuse. Its like feeling guilty for raising your arm

over your face to deflect a blow.

That is the legacy of having a mentally ill, abusive parent: misplaced,

inappropriate guilt for just wanting a normal life.

But our own parents put us in that no-win situation: " Sacrifice yourself for ME,

your mother, and I will absolve you of guilt; or choose to have your own,

separate, normal adult life and torment yourself with guilt forever. "

Its an unfair choice they force us to make.

The only way to deal with it is to accept that they, as adults, *always* had the

choice to seek psychiatric help *and chose not to* over and over again, during

our growing-up years and into our adulthood. It was always their choice to

avoid self-examination, avoid responsibility for their own behaviors, and avoid

therapy.

Instead, they chose to blame other people for their problems and *demanded* to

be rescued, over and over. That's the equivalent of latching onto a rescuer and

drowning the rescuer in order to avoid drowning themselves, instead of any

number of other choices: don't go in the water, learn to swim, wear a life-vest,

grab the life-preserver thrown to you, etc., etc.

When we can shift the heavy load of guilt and blame back onto the shoulders of

the person it rightfully belongs to, I think we can start to heal.

-Annie

Awful guilt! I let her stay a month, after agreeing

> to 2 weeks. She began to bring her hoarding stuff into my house and

> stack it up here. So I got to be the bad guy , having to say you have

> to leave.

>

> Ahhhh! Shit. No one should ever have to say to their mother, you can t

> stay with me, you have to get out! But that is the God awful position

> she put me in. That, my dear friends, is what it means to us to have ,

> or to have had, a nada. We ARE placed in situations we never should

> have to face with our own mothers.

>

> And that is why we are so F....ed up!

>

[Guest guest]

Since I'm weighing in on a crapload of other threads recently, I thought I'd put

my two cents in here, too.

CHECK. My mother is definitely a hoarder. She was almost nitpicky clean when I

was young, but when my brother and I moved out, she started hoarding.

I've decided that when she dies, I'm hiring an auction company to come in and

take care of all her crap. It makes me so depressed to go over to her house and

see the physical manifestation of her mental illnesses.

>

> I'm sorry if there's already a thread on this somewhere, but I looked around

and didn't see any.

>

> I'm wondering if anyone else's BPD parent(s) had a problem with hoarding. I

figure, at its extremes, this behavior definitely qualifies as a " potentially

self-harming behavior " listing in the DSM criteria.

>

> In my mother's case, I've always assumed her hoarding was a dysfunctional

reaction to having been very poor as a child, and seeing things she loved get

taken away from her. Interestingly, she rationalizes her spending by almost

always buying second-hand or on sale. But then, she spends so much money that

she might as well have bought one or two full price, brand new items rather than

5 or 6 kind of crappy tag sale or clearance items! Her house is always dark,

cluttered, and messy; my non-BPD father enabled her by buying two 8X8X20

shipping containers and putting them in the backyard. They are full of junk.

>

> As a child, my brother and I were always blamed for how messy the house was,

but now I see that no one could have kept such a cluttered house clean. To clean

properly, you have to be able to throw at least some things away once in a

while!

>

> Any one else? Bueller?

>

[Guest guest]

Since I'm weighing in on a crapload of other threads recently, I thought I'd put

my two cents in here, too.

CHECK. My mother is definitely a hoarder. She was almost nitpicky clean when I

was young, but when my brother and I moved out, she started hoarding.

I've decided that when she dies, I'm hiring an auction company to come in and

take care of all her crap. It makes me so depressed to go over to her house and

see the physical manifestation of her mental illnesses.

>

> I'm sorry if there's already a thread on this somewhere, but I looked around

and didn't see any.

>

> I'm wondering if anyone else's BPD parent(s) had a problem with hoarding. I

figure, at its extremes, this behavior definitely qualifies as a " potentially

self-harming behavior " listing in the DSM criteria.

>

> In my mother's case, I've always assumed her hoarding was a dysfunctional

reaction to having been very poor as a child, and seeing things she loved get

taken away from her. Interestingly, she rationalizes her spending by almost

always buying second-hand or on sale. But then, she spends so much money that

she might as well have bought one or two full price, brand new items rather than

5 or 6 kind of crappy tag sale or clearance items! Her house is always dark,

cluttered, and messy; my non-BPD father enabled her by buying two 8X8X20

shipping containers and putting them in the backyard. They are full of junk.

>

> As a child, my brother and I were always blamed for how messy the house was,

but now I see that no one could have kept such a cluttered house clean. To clean

properly, you have to be able to throw at least some things away once in a

while!

>

> Any one else? Bueller?

>

[Guest guest]

Since I'm weighing in on a crapload of other threads recently, I thought I'd put

my two cents in here, too.

CHECK. My mother is definitely a hoarder. She was almost nitpicky clean when I

was young, but when my brother and I moved out, she started hoarding.

I've decided that when she dies, I'm hiring an auction company to come in and

take care of all her crap. It makes me so depressed to go over to her house and

see the physical manifestation of her mental illnesses.

>

> I'm sorry if there's already a thread on this somewhere, but I looked around

and didn't see any.

>

> I'm wondering if anyone else's BPD parent(s) had a problem with hoarding. I

figure, at its extremes, this behavior definitely qualifies as a " potentially

self-harming behavior " listing in the DSM criteria.

>

> In my mother's case, I've always assumed her hoarding was a dysfunctional

reaction to having been very poor as a child, and seeing things she loved get

taken away from her. Interestingly, she rationalizes her spending by almost

always buying second-hand or on sale. But then, she spends so much money that

she might as well have bought one or two full price, brand new items rather than

5 or 6 kind of crappy tag sale or clearance items! Her house is always dark,

cluttered, and messy; my non-BPD father enabled her by buying two 8X8X20

shipping containers and putting them in the backyard. They are full of junk.

>

> As a child, my brother and I were always blamed for how messy the house was,

but now I see that no one could have kept such a cluttered house clean. To clean

properly, you have to be able to throw at least some things away once in a

while!

>

> Any one else? Bueller?

>

[Guest guest]

Doug and Annie, wow. My mom was nowhere near as bad a hoarder as Doug's, but the

guilt seems to be common to all of us non BPD kids.

" Sacrifice yourself for ME,your mother, and I will absolve you of guilt; or

choose to have your own,separate, normal adult life and torment yourself with

guilt forever. "

That really resonated with me.

But helping her only counts until the next time she wants/needs something; then

it's as if you've never done anything for her.

My mother lives in a terrifying, hard world where no one she loves ever loves

her back enough, and though I'm sorry for her, I can't save her or make her feel

loved enough.

> Awful guilt! I let her stay a month, after agreeing

> > to 2 weeks. She began to bring her hoarding stuff into my house and

> > stack it up here. So I got to be the bad guy , having to say you have

> > to leave.

> >

> > Ahhhh! Shit. No one should ever have to say to their mother, you can t

> > stay with me, you have to get out! But that is the God awful position

> > she put me in. That, my dear friends, is what it means to us to have ,

> > or to have had, a nada. We ARE placed in situations we never should

> > have to face with our own mothers.

> >

> > And that is why we are so F....ed up!

>

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Doug and Annie, wow. My mom was nowhere near as bad a hoarder as Doug's, but the

guilt seems to be common to all of us non BPD kids.

" Sacrifice yourself for ME,your mother, and I will absolve you of guilt; or

choose to have your own,separate, normal adult life and torment yourself with

guilt forever. "

That really resonated with me.

But helping her only counts until the next time she wants/needs something; then

it's as if you've never done anything for her.

My mother lives in a terrifying, hard world where no one she loves ever loves

her back enough, and though I'm sorry for her, I can't save her or make her feel

loved enough.

> Awful guilt! I let her stay a month, after agreeing

> > to 2 weeks. She began to bring her hoarding stuff into my house and

> > stack it up here. So I got to be the bad guy , having to say you have

> > to leave.

> >

> > Ahhhh! Shit. No one should ever have to say to their mother, you can t

> > stay with me, you have to get out! But that is the God awful position

> > she put me in. That, my dear friends, is what it means to us to have ,

> > or to have had, a nada. We ARE placed in situations we never should

> > have to face with our own mothers.

> >

> > And that is why we are so F....ed up!

>

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Doug and Annie, wow. My mom was nowhere near as bad a hoarder as Doug's, but the

guilt seems to be common to all of us non BPD kids.

" Sacrifice yourself for ME,your mother, and I will absolve you of guilt; or

choose to have your own,separate, normal adult life and torment yourself with

guilt forever. "

That really resonated with me.

But helping her only counts until the next time she wants/needs something; then

it's as if you've never done anything for her.

My mother lives in a terrifying, hard world where no one she loves ever loves

her back enough, and though I'm sorry for her, I can't save her or make her feel

loved enough.

> Awful guilt! I let her stay a month, after agreeing

> > to 2 weeks. She began to bring her hoarding stuff into my house and

> > stack it up here. So I got to be the bad guy , having to say you have

> > to leave.

> >

> > Ahhhh! Shit. No one should ever have to say to their mother, you can t

> > stay with me, you have to get out! But that is the God awful position

> > she put me in. That, my dear friends, is what it means to us to have ,

> > or to have had, a nada. We ARE placed in situations we never should

> > have to face with our own mothers.

> >

> > And that is why we are so F....ed up!

>

> >

>

[Guest guest]

ha! I've always said the moment she dies, I'm opening the door to the house (and

the two shipping containers full of junk), lighting a match, and walking away.

> >

> > I'm sorry if there's already a thread on this somewhere, but I looked around

and didn't see any.

> >

> > I'm wondering if anyone else's BPD parent(s) had a problem with hoarding. I

figure, at its extremes, this behavior definitely qualifies as a " potentially

self-harming behavior " listing in the DSM criteria.

> >

> > In my mother's case, I've always assumed her hoarding was a dysfunctional

reaction to having been very poor as a child, and seeing things she loved get

taken away from her. Interestingly, she rationalizes her spending by almost

always buying second-hand or on sale. But then, she spends so much money that

she might as well have bought one or two full price, brand new items rather than

5 or 6 kind of crappy tag sale or clearance items! Her house is always dark,

cluttered, and messy; my non-BPD father enabled her by buying two 8X8X20

shipping containers and putting them in the backyard. They are full of junk.

> >

> > As a child, my brother and I were always blamed for how messy the house was,

but now I see that no one could have kept such a cluttered house clean. To clean

properly, you have to be able to throw at least some things away once in a

while!

> >

> > Any one else? Bueller?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

ha! I've always said the moment she dies, I'm opening the door to the house (and

the two shipping containers full of junk), lighting a match, and walking away.

> >

> > I'm sorry if there's already a thread on this somewhere, but I looked around

and didn't see any.

> >

> > I'm wondering if anyone else's BPD parent(s) had a problem with hoarding. I

figure, at its extremes, this behavior definitely qualifies as a " potentially

self-harming behavior " listing in the DSM criteria.

> >

> > In my mother's case, I've always assumed her hoarding was a dysfunctional

reaction to having been very poor as a child, and seeing things she loved get

taken away from her. Interestingly, she rationalizes her spending by almost

always buying second-hand or on sale. But then, she spends so much money that

she might as well have bought one or two full price, brand new items rather than

5 or 6 kind of crappy tag sale or clearance items! Her house is always dark,

cluttered, and messy; my non-BPD father enabled her by buying two 8X8X20

shipping containers and putting them in the backyard. They are full of junk.

> >

> > As a child, my brother and I were always blamed for how messy the house was,

but now I see that no one could have kept such a cluttered house clean. To clean

properly, you have to be able to throw at least some things away once in a

while!

> >

> > Any one else? Bueller?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

ha! I've always said the moment she dies, I'm opening the door to the house (and

the two shipping containers full of junk), lighting a match, and walking away.

> >

> > I'm sorry if there's already a thread on this somewhere, but I looked around

and didn't see any.

> >

> > I'm wondering if anyone else's BPD parent(s) had a problem with hoarding. I

figure, at its extremes, this behavior definitely qualifies as a " potentially

self-harming behavior " listing in the DSM criteria.

> >

> > In my mother's case, I've always assumed her hoarding was a dysfunctional

reaction to having been very poor as a child, and seeing things she loved get

taken away from her. Interestingly, she rationalizes her spending by almost

always buying second-hand or on sale. But then, she spends so much money that

she might as well have bought one or two full price, brand new items rather than

5 or 6 kind of crappy tag sale or clearance items! Her house is always dark,

cluttered, and messy; my non-BPD father enabled her by buying two 8X8X20

shipping containers and putting them in the backyard. They are full of junk.

> >

> > As a child, my brother and I were always blamed for how messy the house was,

but now I see that no one could have kept such a cluttered house clean. To clean

properly, you have to be able to throw at least some things away once in a

while!

> >

> > Any one else? Bueller?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

That is one of the key issues of bpd: no matter how much you do give to your bpd

parent (your time, particularly) or how often, its never enough.

If I'm remembering what I've read correctly, the person with a Cluster B

personality disorder has no " self " at their innermost core; its empty. Instead

there is an un-fillable black hole of need where a " self " is supposed to be.

In order to become more normalized, first the person with bpd has to comprehend

that they have a disorder and they have to want to go into therapy to learn how

to help themselves.

The conundrum is that personality disorder is an " ego syntonic " condition,

meaning the person with pd is not distressed by their own behaviors. Pd

individuals believe that their own way of thinking and doing things and treating

people is normal and OK, and the problems are all coming from outside of their

own self, always. They are never even part of the problem, they're always just

the victim.

Without personal insight and awareness/acceptance that they even have a

personality disorder (a dysfunctional way of relating to other people) they will

continue to just heap blame on everyone else for their problems & how they

feel, and continue to scream for rescue instead of learning to self-soothe and

problem-solve at a more mature level.

Children are so easy to influence and train and brainwash when they're little.

So our bpd parents trained us from birth to become their parents, companions and

rescuers instead of working on becoming responsible, mature, rational adults

themselves. Its SO much easier to pressure, bribe, punish, or manipulate a

loving, trusting child to do your bidding than it is to work on your own issues.

That's the unfair, no-win situation they've put us in.

Just grasping this dynamic is a step in the direction of healing and freedom

from misplaced and inappropriate guilt.

-Annie

> > Awful guilt! I let her stay a month, after agreeing

> > > to 2 weeks. She began to bring her hoarding stuff into my house and

> > > stack it up here. So I got to be the bad guy , having to say you have

> > > to leave.

> > >

> > > Ahhhh! Shit. No one should ever have to say to their mother, you can t

> > > stay with me, you have to get out! But that is the God awful position

> > > she put me in. That, my dear friends, is what it means to us to have ,

> > > or to have had, a nada. We ARE placed in situations we never should

> > > have to face with our own mothers.

> > >

> > > And that is why we are so F....ed up!

> >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

That is one of the key issues of bpd: no matter how much you do give to your bpd

parent (your time, particularly) or how often, its never enough.

If I'm remembering what I've read correctly, the person with a Cluster B

personality disorder has no " self " at their innermost core; its empty. Instead

there is an un-fillable black hole of need where a " self " is supposed to be.

In order to become more normalized, first the person with bpd has to comprehend

that they have a disorder and they have to want to go into therapy to learn how

to help themselves.

The conundrum is that personality disorder is an " ego syntonic " condition,

meaning the person with pd is not distressed by their own behaviors. Pd

individuals believe that their own way of thinking and doing things and treating

people is normal and OK, and the problems are all coming from outside of their

own self, always. They are never even part of the problem, they're always just

the victim.

Without personal insight and awareness/acceptance that they even have a

personality disorder (a dysfunctional way of relating to other people) they will

continue to just heap blame on everyone else for their problems & how they

feel, and continue to scream for rescue instead of learning to self-soothe and

problem-solve at a more mature level.

Children are so easy to influence and train and brainwash when they're little.

So our bpd parents trained us from birth to become their parents, companions and

rescuers instead of working on becoming responsible, mature, rational adults

themselves. Its SO much easier to pressure, bribe, punish, or manipulate a

loving, trusting child to do your bidding than it is to work on your own issues.

That's the unfair, no-win situation they've put us in.

Just grasping this dynamic is a step in the direction of healing and freedom

from misplaced and inappropriate guilt.

-Annie

> > Awful guilt! I let her stay a month, after agreeing

> > > to 2 weeks. She began to bring her hoarding stuff into my house and

> > > stack it up here. So I got to be the bad guy , having to say you have

> > > to leave.

> > >

> > > Ahhhh! Shit. No one should ever have to say to their mother, you can t

> > > stay with me, you have to get out! But that is the God awful position

> > > she put me in. That, my dear friends, is what it means to us to have ,

> > > or to have had, a nada. We ARE placed in situations we never should

> > > have to face with our own mothers.

> > >

> > > And that is why we are so F....ed up!

> >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

<<<Ahhhh! Shit. No one should ever have to say to their mother, you can t

stay with me, you have to get out! But that is the God awful position

she put me in. That, my dear friends, is what it means to us to have ,

or to have had, a nada. We ARE placed in situations we never should

have to face with our own mothers.>>

and

>>When we can shift the heavy load of guilt and blame back onto the

shoulders of the person it rightfully belongs to, I think we can start to

heal.>>>

Aghh, this is all hitting me in the gut... I find myself avoiding reading

the posts for a week or so at a time because it's almost too much

sometimes. I want to pretent things are fine or something, but in reality it's

that

I am falling back into some new different kind of FOG... or, at other

times, I find myself depressed and angry at the situation I'm recognizing in

recent behaviors by my BPD mother. It's hard for me to say she's a nada. I

tend to be a pollyanna, and I try SO HARD not to be negative like she is

that it spills over into even accepting the current situation with our

relationship. (It SUCKS.) It's absolutely exhausting to be pathologically

non

confrontational like I am ... yet wanting to question and argue just about

everything she says. We are not only not NC or LC, but HC!! (high

contact) because she lives here at the moment.

I have no idea what I'm trying to say right now. I guess just that this

all just sucks, and I don't feel like I am equipped to handle it. The only

thing I know how to do is try to make everyone happy and not feel awkward

or bad about anything... graayyyt.

Star

[Guest guest]

<<<Ahhhh! Shit. No one should ever have to say to their mother, you can t

stay with me, you have to get out! But that is the God awful position

she put me in. That, my dear friends, is what it means to us to have ,

or to have had, a nada. We ARE placed in situations we never should

have to face with our own mothers.>>

and

>>When we can shift the heavy load of guilt and blame back onto the

shoulders of the person it rightfully belongs to, I think we can start to

heal.>>>

Aghh, this is all hitting me in the gut... I find myself avoiding reading

the posts for a week or so at a time because it's almost too much

sometimes. I want to pretent things are fine or something, but in reality it's

that

I am falling back into some new different kind of FOG... or, at other

times, I find myself depressed and angry at the situation I'm recognizing in

recent behaviors by my BPD mother. It's hard for me to say she's a nada. I

tend to be a pollyanna, and I try SO HARD not to be negative like she is

that it spills over into even accepting the current situation with our

relationship. (It SUCKS.) It's absolutely exhausting to be pathologically

non

confrontational like I am ... yet wanting to question and argue just about

everything she says. We are not only not NC or LC, but HC!! (high

contact) because she lives here at the moment.

I have no idea what I'm trying to say right now. I guess just that this

all just sucks, and I don't feel like I am equipped to handle it. The only

thing I know how to do is try to make everyone happy and not feel awkward

or bad about anything... graayyyt.

Star

[Guest guest]

>

> Star, if you feel that way, I would guess your nada is a waif or maybe

> hermit, the original miss needy pants. Is it true? I think its easier to say

> " Shut the Front Door " on your way out to the Witch/queen nada like mine,

> thought she acts like all the options

Yes! She's a bit of both of those! I thought 100% waif but when I finally got

the book and read it, there was definite elements of both in there.

It's SO MUCH easier for me to create boundaries when someone is blatantly being

an ass. In this scenario I end up just being mad at myself as I do / say

whatever 'necessary' to keep the 'peace' (which is false). Right now the most

aggressive I can get is not saying anything at all. My silence screams at me,

but I am certain to the one that it is pointed at, it is just ... well,

passivity?