Talking to (or really, being talked at by) my brother

December 5, 2010

I don't think my brother has BPD.

I've posted about him here before and when I've described his behavior, others

have mentioned he might have Asperger's syndrome, which helps me when I deal

with him.

Today, though, I was soooo mad at him.

We were talking on the phone because my mother and I were talking and she said,

" oh your brother's here. want to talk to him? " I think she does that b/c she

knows how much I loathe talking with him. It is an exercise in extreme patience

and longsuffering. He tells mercilessly long stories, he quotes from all of his

favorite tv shows.

i was mad at him b/c i told him I was getting my daughter an iTouch for

Christmas but realized after I bought it that she would have unlimited access to

the Internet.

My brother is almost 50.

He has never been married or been in any long term relationship.

He has very few close friends.

He does not have anything to care for, pet or otherwise.

But he started, for about 15 minutes, doling out the parenting advice. " Well,

you're going to have to talk to her like a friend....blah blah blah. You can't

watch over her...blah blah blah.... "

And then started telling me about a heroic incident he'd had where he had given

anti-drug advice to the daughter of a friend and she came back to him months

later to say how his advice was helpful.

Which is great, really. But why does he have to act like an authority on

something he knows NOTHING about? He doesn't know what it's like to raise a kid,

and he assumes his advice is something I've never thought of or do already.

Duh! You mean if I TALK to my kid respectfully, it'll help me develop a solid

relationship with them?? Thanks Dr. Phil!!

And I can't say, " , I know you mean well, but I don't think you fully

understand what it's like to raise kids. " Because, then, he gets super offended

and that's that.

He's older than me and I still feel at times that " well, he's older, so I have

to listen to him " pull.

I just hate talking to him. And i feel really guilty about that. He's a nice

guy, loves chatting, and cares about people. But he will talk like I'm not even

there, and if I say I have to go, he'll go on ANOTHER 20 minutes.

I'm just venting and appreciate any feedback if any one has someone like this in

their life. I do love my brother but it saddens me that we really don't know

each other and that I don't like being around him.

December 5, 2010

Hi Fiona,

If I were in his position, I would simply say something like, " Wow, that's

great. She is going to love that gift, " and then be done with it. But he's

obviously not like that.

There's always more than one way to look at things, and here's what I see:

He's a 50 year old man who is probably lonely because he is unmarried. Maybe he

wanted to marry and have children (and maybe he just TOLD everyone he didn't).

As he is middle aged, he is probably thinking a lot about his life and what it

has meant, and has he made a difference. Since he hasn't started a family of

his own, he might feel like a failure, or like he doesn't matter, or like he

does not have enough love in his life.

The one thing he feels he can offer is some advice, and maybe he has been

watching shows & reading books about childrearing because he hopes one day to be

a father and he thinks it would be good to prepare. He may feel that way, even

if he tells everyone otherwise.

Men have a great need to feel helpful, I think, and it sounds like he is trying

to help you. It may be annoying, but it may come from a really nice place. I

don't know if this would help you to sort of reframe your experiences with him?

And I DO get it about the older sibling treating you like they know better no

matter how freakin old you get. That is frustrating!

Deanna

>

> I don't think my brother has BPD.

>

> I've posted about him here before and when I've described his behavior, others

have mentioned he might have Asperger's syndrome, which helps me when I deal

with him.

>

> Today, though, I was soooo mad at him.

>

> We were talking on the phone because my mother and I were talking and she

said, " oh your brother's here. want to talk to him? " I think she does that b/c

she knows how much I loathe talking with him. It is an exercise in extreme

patience and longsuffering. He tells mercilessly long stories, he quotes from

all of his favorite tv shows.

>

> i was mad at him b/c i told him I was getting my daughter an iTouch for

Christmas but realized after I bought it that she would have unlimited access to

the Internet.

>

> My brother is almost 50.

> He has never been married or been in any long term relationship.

> He has very few close friends.

> He does not have anything to care for, pet or otherwise.

>

> But he started, for about 15 minutes, doling out the parenting advice. " Well,

you're going to have to talk to her like a friend....blah blah blah. You can't

watch over her...blah blah blah.... "

>

> And then started telling me about a heroic incident he'd had where he had

given anti-drug advice to the daughter of a friend and she came back to him

months later to say how his advice was helpful.

>

> Which is great, really. But why does he have to act like an authority on

something he knows NOTHING about? He doesn't know what it's like to raise a kid,

and he assumes his advice is something I've never thought of or do already.

Duh! You mean if I TALK to my kid respectfully, it'll help me develop a solid

relationship with them?? Thanks Dr. Phil!!

>

> And I can't say, " , I know you mean well, but I don't think you fully

understand what it's like to raise kids. " Because, then, he gets super offended

and that's that.

>

> He's older than me and I still feel at times that " well, he's older, so I have

to listen to him " pull.

>

> I just hate talking to him. And i feel really guilty about that. He's a nice

guy, loves chatting, and cares about people. But he will talk like I'm not even

there, and if I say I have to go, he'll go on ANOTHER 20 minutes.

>

> I'm just venting and appreciate any feedback if any one has someone like this

in their life. I do love my brother but it saddens me that we really don't know

each other and that I don't like being around him.

>

December 5, 2010

What he did is almost a textbook example of an marker for Asperger's; he was

having a one-sided conversation without being able to pick up on social cues

that you did not want his opinion. You said ``And I can't say, " , I know you

mean well, but I don't think you fully understand what it's like to raise kids. "

Because, then, he gets super offended and that's that.`` which, from how I read

it, shows another marker since he is over-reacting emotionally to a statement

that is quite polite in comparison to something like ``Mind your own business!``

I obviously don`t know him personally, but I have known a couple people who had

Asperger`s Syndrome due to affiliation with the different charities/groups. To

be honest, if he does have Asperger's then his actions makes a lot of sense... I

guess the next question is, did he always behave this way? If not, then it's

more than likely not Asperger's (onset is in infancy).

If he has these personality traits that you find irritating/bothersome, is it

possible for you to talk to him about why he does it? If not, then I'd try to

distance yourself from the situation.

My sister (who has no disorder of any kind, except one or two traits of BPD) can

be like this and sometimes it's hard to get her to stop talking or get to the

point of her story. I will tell her point blank that what she's talking about is

irrelevant and that she needs to get to the point. I know my behaviour is kind

of rude, but keeping her focused is my main objective. She can be a great

person, but when she wants attention she wants it now and that is not something

I am always capable of (I live with our parents and she does not).

My older sister is mentally/physically handicapped and there are times when she

pushes my buttons, but I remind myself that if I start getting tense/angry, even

if it's just in body language or tone of voice, then I will ultimately make the

situation worse.

So I guess my advice is this... A) if he fits the definition of Asperger's then

try to remember that a lot of his actions/behaviour are innately programmed

(kind of like auto-pilot) If he's just being rude/invasive then tell him

where to go and how to get there... if you keep putting up with a behaviour from

someone then they'll keep doing it (not like everyone on this site doesn't know

that, lol) or C) Try to keep as little contact as possible. I hope this helps

and I didn't sound like a snob... if I did, I apologise... I hope this helped

you!

Here's the link to the Aspergers Society of Ontario:

http://www.aspergers.ca/index.php?option=com_content & task=view & id=20 & Itemid=34

>

> I don't think my brother has BPD.

>

> I've posted about him here before and when I've described his behavior, others

have mentioned he might have Asperger's syndrome, which helps me when I deal

with him.

>

> Today, though, I was soooo mad at him.

>

> We were talking on the phone because my mother and I were talking and she

said, " oh your brother's here. want to talk to him? " I think she does that b/c

she knows how much I loathe talking with him. It is an exercise in extreme

patience and longsuffering. He tells mercilessly long stories, he quotes from

all of his favorite tv shows.

>

> i was mad at him b/c i told him I was getting my daughter an iTouch for

Christmas but realized after I bought it that she would have unlimited access to

the Internet.

>

> My brother is almost 50.

> He has never been married or been in any long term relationship.

> He has very few close friends.

> He does not have anything to care for, pet or otherwise.

>

> But he started, for about 15 minutes, doling out the parenting advice. " Well,

you're going to have to talk to her like a friend....blah blah blah. You can't

watch over her...blah blah blah.... "

>

> And then started telling me about a heroic incident he'd had where he had

given anti-drug advice to the daughter of a friend and she came back to him

months later to say how his advice was helpful.

>

> Which is great, really. But why does he have to act like an authority on

something he knows NOTHING about? He doesn't know what it's like to raise a kid,

and he assumes his advice is something I've never thought of or do already.

Duh! You mean if I TALK to my kid respectfully, it'll help me develop a solid

relationship with them?? Thanks Dr. Phil!!

>

> And I can't say, " , I know you mean well, but I don't think you fully

understand what it's like to raise kids. " Because, then, he gets super offended

and that's that.

>

> He's older than me and I still feel at times that " well, he's older, so I have

to listen to him " pull.

>

> I just hate talking to him. And i feel really guilty about that. He's a nice

guy, loves chatting, and cares about people. But he will talk like I'm not even

there, and if I say I have to go, he'll go on ANOTHER 20 minutes.

>

> I'm just venting and appreciate any feedback if any one has someone like this

in their life. I do love my brother but it saddens me that we really don't know

each other and that I don't like being around him.

>

December 5, 2010

Maybe if you can get yourself to set a boundary with your brother regarding the

length of the conversations with him, you will feel less aggravated with him. I

agree that talking to know-it-alls and to those who monopolize the conversation

and talk at you instead of with you is very annoying and exasperating. I

personally think that is a narcissistic trait, myself.

My suggestion is to put a timer near you and start it running when your brother

starts talking to you. Let's say you're OK with being talked at for 10 minutes,

and that's it.

When the timer dings, you just interrupt your brother in a kindly tone, and say

how much you have enjoyed talking to him, its good to hear from him, but that

you have to hang up now, you have an appointment. *He will probably not hear

you and talk over you* but you just plow ahead anyway. YOu talk over him.

" Great talking to you, brother darling, but I have to go now. Talk to you again

soon! Love you! I'm hanging up now! 'Bye " .

Yes, it is rude to talk over someone, but those who talk continuously without

letting others have a turn ( " monopolizing the conversation " ) are being quite

rude themselves; they force us to interrupt them, unless we don't mind being

held hostage for (what seems like) huge blocks of time.

This one woman I know talks constantly; without even seeming to take a breath

(!!) she can seque from topic to topic without allowing any back-and-forth

dialogue.

The only way I discovered to get a word in edgewise was to directly address her

boyfriend. At at party we were attending and Jane were standing next to

each other, and after several nonstop minutes of Jane talking I turned to her

boyfriend and said, " , when you get a chance, please ask Jane if she prefers

this date or that date for the charity event? " Then Jane interrupted herself to

answer my question. After another several-minute monologue of Jane answering my

question, I gently and politely talked over her and said, " Thanks, Jane, that's

what I needed to know. I'll get back to you later on that " and walked away with

a smile and a wave.

I don't like being rude, but I don't like being held " hostage " even more, so, I

do it.

-Annie

>

> I don't think my brother has BPD.

>

> I've posted about him here before and when I've described his behavior, others

have mentioned he might have Asperger's syndrome, which helps me when I deal

with him.

>

> Today, though, I was soooo mad at him.

>

> We were talking on the phone because my mother and I were talking and she

said, " oh your brother's here. want to talk to him? " I think she does that b/c

she knows how much I loathe talking with him. It is an exercise in extreme

patience and longsuffering. He tells mercilessly long stories, he quotes from

all of his favorite tv shows.

>

> i was mad at him b/c i told him I was getting my daughter an iTouch for

Christmas but realized after I bought it that she would have unlimited access to

the Internet.

>

> My brother is almost 50.

> He has never been married or been in any long term relationship.

> He has very few close friends.

> He does not have anything to care for, pet or otherwise.

>

> But he started, for about 15 minutes, doling out the parenting advice. " Well,

you're going to have to talk to her like a friend....blah blah blah. You can't

watch over her...blah blah blah.... "

>

> And then started telling me about a heroic incident he'd had where he had

given anti-drug advice to the daughter of a friend and she came back to him

months later to say how his advice was helpful.

>

> Which is great, really. But why does he have to act like an authority on

something he knows NOTHING about? He doesn't know what it's like to raise a kid,

and he assumes his advice is something I've never thought of or do already.

Duh! You mean if I TALK to my kid respectfully, it'll help me develop a solid

relationship with them?? Thanks Dr. Phil!!

>

> And I can't say, " , I know you mean well, but I don't think you fully

understand what it's like to raise kids. " Because, then, he gets super offended

and that's that.

>

> He's older than me and I still feel at times that " well, he's older, so I have

to listen to him " pull.

>

> I just hate talking to him. And i feel really guilty about that. He's a nice

guy, loves chatting, and cares about people. But he will talk like I'm not even

there, and if I say I have to go, he'll go on ANOTHER 20 minutes.

>

> I'm just venting and appreciate any feedback if any one has someone like this

in their life. I do love my brother but it saddens me that we really don't know

each other and that I don't like being around him.

>

December 5, 2010

I don't blame you for not wanting to talk to your brother, it's like your time

has been hijacked. And you mother is a jerk for setting you up. My nada is like

that also. She can talk circles around the best of them, I call it a

" Donnalogue " it's quite amazing actually.

A few strategies I use is that I mention my cell battery will die very soon and

that way when it's time, I can cut it short, and if I am forced to hang up she

thinks it's the battery. Sometimes I ring the doorbell myself and pretend

somebody is at the door, I hit the ringer button on somebody elses cell phone

and say I have another call I need to answer. (She is 70 and technologically

challenged so she buys it) Yikes! I know this might sound cruel but it's just

easier than trying to get a word in and end the conversation, she speaks over

me, interrupts and ignores me anyway.

We can also say " NO " this is especially hard for us KO's since we've been

trained to never assert ourselves or have boundaries. But next time your mother

asks if you want to speak with him, try saying " no' however difficult this may

be. It's probably easier than getting off the phone with him yes? I often

screen my nadas calls until I am mentally prepared to speak with her. I also

limit our conversations to email, where there's more control for me. Would any

of these strategies help with your brother?

Try not to take the unsolicited (if not obnoxious) parenting advice personally.

Sounds like your brother doles it out to other people also.... I know it's

easier said than done for sure. Is there any parent who is completely immune to

obnoxious advice from family or even strangers??? I hear you , I too have two

older brothers (They are both BPD) who seem to think it their god given right to

tell me how to live, act, think, and be. I went NC and LC with them, but I

understand the older sibling dynamic, it's bull considering our older brothers

are not 'normal' lets say.

Anyway, your feelings are valid and this is a frustrating situation indeed. I

hope you can overcome it somehow, and please don't buy into the FOG, because

it's not your fault.

Hugs from HF

December 5, 2010

I don't blame you for not wanting to talk to your brother, it's like your time

has been hijacked. And you mother is a jerk for setting you up. My nada is like

that also. She can talk circles around the best of them, I call it a

" Donnalogue " it's quite amazing actually.

A few strategies I use is that I mention my cell battery will die very soon and

that way when it's time, I can cut it short, and if I am forced to hang up she

thinks it's the battery. Sometimes I ring the doorbell myself and pretend

somebody is at the door, I hit the ringer button on somebody elses cell phone

and say I have another call I need to answer. (She is 70 and technologically

challenged so she buys it) Yikes! I know this might sound cruel but it's just

easier than trying to get a word in and end the conversation, she speaks over

me, interrupts and ignores me anyway.

We can also say " NO " this is especially hard for us KO's since we've been

trained to never assert ourselves or have boundaries. But next time your mother

asks if you want to speak with him, try saying " no' however difficult this may

be. It's probably easier than getting off the phone with him yes? I often

screen my nadas calls until I am mentally prepared to speak with her. I also

limit our conversations to email, where there's more control for me. Would any

of these strategies help with your brother?

Try not to take the unsolicited (if not obnoxious) parenting advice personally.

Sounds like your brother doles it out to other people also.... I know it's

easier said than done for sure. Is there any parent who is completely immune to

obnoxious advice from family or even strangers??? I hear you , I too have two

older brothers (They are both BPD) who seem to think it their god given right to

tell me how to live, act, think, and be. I went NC and LC with them, but I

understand the older sibling dynamic, it's bull considering our older brothers

are not 'normal' lets say.

Anyway, your feelings are valid and this is a frustrating situation indeed. I

hope you can overcome it somehow, and please don't buy into the FOG, because

it's not your fault.

Hugs from HF

December 6, 2010

Deanna, Annie and HF,

Thanks so much for your words. That's what I love about this board, is the

perspective I get on situations that I feel much too close to.

HF, I loooove your tactics to get off the phone!! They had me guffawing! My

brother talks SO much and is so unaware of social cues (or maybe he just doesn't

give a rat's ass if I have to get off the phone) that I had to tell him I had to

go #2 badly. EVEN THEN, he kept talking. It really is auditory masturbation. I

finally got off the phone by saying " omigosh, I'm gonna burst. Bye! " And hung

up.

And screening, yes yes yes, I do it all the time with him. He'll say things like

" it's easier to get the Pope/President/etc than getting you. " Because I do NOT

pick up when he calls or email back. If I email him, he'll start calling me on

every # of mine he has b/c he thinks I'm at my desk/home. And I've even tried

being honest with him. Once I wrote him a brutally honest letter about his

behaviors that I find inconsiderate, etc. He thanked me for it...and never

changed a bit.

Deanna, thank you so much for helping me see him a bit differently. If I were

someone else and not his sister, I think I would be much more compassionate with

him. But I get so impatient with him. He needs an infinite amount of validation

and I feel like he clings to me for it. It's a weird codependent relationship

that I've cut waaaaay back on and I know he feels abandoned, whatever, but it

can't go on. Before I got married, I was his therapist/bank/sounding board.

And he wanted this to continue after I married. In fact, after my wedding

reception, he came up to me and said, " Ready? We're leaving. " He expected me to

go home with him and my parents. I felt SO guilty for leaving on my honeymoon.

It's too sick!! I think this is why it's hard for me to be compassionate. I'm

afraid it's going to just lead to being asked to be/do thing I can't and don't

want to.

Annie, thanks for the timer idea. I'm going to try it, just to build up my

" saying no " muscle. I know he won't like it. He's said stuff like " you always

get to say goodbye first! " when I say I have to go. And I've felt uncomfortable

with his disapproval. I guess I just have to get used to the disapproval.

Thanks again,

Fiona

>

> I don't blame you for not wanting to talk to your brother, it's like your time

has been hijacked. And you mother is a jerk for setting you up. My nada is like

that also. She can talk circles around the best of them, I call it a

" Donnalogue " it's quite amazing actually.

>

> A few strategies I use is that I mention my cell battery will die very soon

and that way when it's time, I can cut it short, and if I am forced to hang up

she thinks it's the battery. Sometimes I ring the doorbell myself and pretend

somebody is at the door, I hit the ringer button on somebody elses cell phone

and say I have another call I need to answer. (She is 70 and technologically

challenged so she buys it) Yikes! I know this might sound cruel but it's just

easier than trying to get a word in and end the conversation, she speaks over

me, interrupts and ignores me anyway.

>

> We can also say " NO " this is especially hard for us KO's since we've been

trained to never assert ourselves or have boundaries. But next time your mother

asks if you want to speak with him, try saying " no' however difficult this may

be. It's probably easier than getting off the phone with him yes? I often

screen my nadas calls until I am mentally prepared to speak with her. I also

limit our conversations to email, where there's more control for me. Would any

of these strategies help with your brother?

>

> Try not to take the unsolicited (if not obnoxious) parenting advice

personally. Sounds like your brother doles it out to other people also.... I

know it's easier said than done for sure. Is there any parent who is completely

immune to obnoxious advice from family or even strangers??? I hear you , I too

have two older brothers (They are both BPD) who seem to think it their god given

right to tell me how to live, act, think, and be. I went NC and LC with them,

but I understand the older sibling dynamic, it's bull considering our older

brothers are not 'normal' lets say.

>

> Anyway, your feelings are valid and this is a frustrating situation indeed. I

hope you can overcome it somehow, and please don't buy into the FOG, because

it's not your fault.

>

> Hugs from HF

>

December 6, 2010