Re: How much sympathy should I feel for my Dad?

[Guest guest]

Thanks everyone. I haven't been on here for a while--it seems that I only end

up here after I've had some sort of contact with Nada. (My most recent contact

will be the topic of another post.)

I do want to let people know that my dad doesn't have BPD or NPD traits. He's a

genuinely nice guy, who seems to have some weird hero complex where he feels has

to be my mom's protector (I don't know what that diagnoses would be). Also, I

do remember a several times when I was younger when Dad stood up to mom on our

behalf. This usually resulted in my mom threatening divorce. I also clearly

remember coming home from college once (I'm the oldest child in a large family)

and witnessing Nada " blow up " and having my dad say to me, " I'm not sure how

much longer I can hold this together " . It was the only time I ever heard my

father say anything remotely negative about his marriage or my mother. After

that day, I feel he stopped trying to advocate for his children. I guess I'm

angry at him for ceasing to fight for us, but I also feel that if he had

continued to " fight " for my siblings they would have been in a worse situation

because mom would have had custody of them in a divorce (I don't include myself,

because I was an adult by this point).

It would be easier to not feel sympathy if he had been crazy like my mom, or

left us completely unprotected, but that isn't quite the way it was. Does it

make sense at all? Did he accept the status quo because fighting got too hard

on him, or was he worried about what would happen to his kids if he left? I

guess that is what it boils down to for me--and I'm afraid to to know the

answer.

[Guest guest]

Thanks everyone. I haven't been on here for a while--it seems that I only end

up here after I've had some sort of contact with Nada. (My most recent contact

will be the topic of another post.)

I do want to let people know that my dad doesn't have BPD or NPD traits. He's a

genuinely nice guy, who seems to have some weird hero complex where he feels has

to be my mom's protector (I don't know what that diagnoses would be). Also, I

do remember a several times when I was younger when Dad stood up to mom on our

behalf. This usually resulted in my mom threatening divorce. I also clearly

remember coming home from college once (I'm the oldest child in a large family)

and witnessing Nada " blow up " and having my dad say to me, " I'm not sure how

much longer I can hold this together " . It was the only time I ever heard my

father say anything remotely negative about his marriage or my mother. After

that day, I feel he stopped trying to advocate for his children. I guess I'm

angry at him for ceasing to fight for us, but I also feel that if he had

continued to " fight " for my siblings they would have been in a worse situation

because mom would have had custody of them in a divorce (I don't include myself,

because I was an adult by this point).

It would be easier to not feel sympathy if he had been crazy like my mom, or

left us completely unprotected, but that isn't quite the way it was. Does it

make sense at all? Did he accept the status quo because fighting got too hard

on him, or was he worried about what would happen to his kids if he left? I

guess that is what it boils down to for me--and I'm afraid to to know the

answer.

[Guest guest]

Thanks everyone. I haven't been on here for a while--it seems that I only end

up here after I've had some sort of contact with Nada. (My most recent contact

will be the topic of another post.)

I do want to let people know that my dad doesn't have BPD or NPD traits. He's a

genuinely nice guy, who seems to have some weird hero complex where he feels has

to be my mom's protector (I don't know what that diagnoses would be). Also, I

do remember a several times when I was younger when Dad stood up to mom on our

behalf. This usually resulted in my mom threatening divorce. I also clearly

remember coming home from college once (I'm the oldest child in a large family)

and witnessing Nada " blow up " and having my dad say to me, " I'm not sure how

much longer I can hold this together " . It was the only time I ever heard my

father say anything remotely negative about his marriage or my mother. After

that day, I feel he stopped trying to advocate for his children. I guess I'm

angry at him for ceasing to fight for us, but I also feel that if he had

continued to " fight " for my siblings they would have been in a worse situation

because mom would have had custody of them in a divorce (I don't include myself,

because I was an adult by this point).

It would be easier to not feel sympathy if he had been crazy like my mom, or

left us completely unprotected, but that isn't quite the way it was. Does it

make sense at all? Did he accept the status quo because fighting got too hard

on him, or was he worried about what would happen to his kids if he left? I

guess that is what it boils down to for me--and I'm afraid to to know the

answer.

[Guest guest]

This is so sad! I don't see how a man with any conscious at all would have many

children with an unfit mother. I have noticed there's a trend with " dad was a

really good guy and mom was a demon " . I grew up with that dynamic. I feel so sad

for what you've endured and what you may come to discover. All my best to you

and yours!

Please excuse any typos or terseness, this message was sent from a mobile

device.

Re: How much sympathy should I feel for my Dad?

Thanks everyone. I haven't been on here for a while--it seems that I only end

up here after I've had some sort of contact with Nada. (My most recent contact

will be the topic of another post.)

I do want to let people know that my dad doesn't have BPD or NPD traits. He's a

genuinely nice guy, who seems to have some weird hero complex where he feels has

to be my mom's protector (I don't know what that diagnoses would be). Also, I

do remember a several times when I was younger when Dad stood up to mom on our

behalf. This usually resulted in my mom threatening divorce. I also clearly

remember coming home from college once (I'm the oldest child in a large family)

and witnessing Nada " blow up " and having my dad say to me, " I'm not sure how

much longer I can hold this together " . It was the only time I ever heard my

father say anything remotely negative about his marriage or my mother. After

that day, I feel he stopped trying to advocate for his children. I guess I'm

angry at him for ceasing to fight for us, but I also feel that if he had

continued to " fight " for my siblings they would have been in a worse situation

because mom would have had custody of them in a divorce (I don't include myself,

because I was an adult by this point).

It would be easier to not feel sympathy if he had been crazy like my mom, or

left us completely unprotected, but that isn't quite the way it was. Does it

make sense at all? Did he accept the status quo because fighting got too hard

on him, or was he worried about what would happen to his kids if he left? I

guess that is what it boils down to for me--and I'm afraid to to know the

answer.

[Guest guest]

Anne,

Yes, that makes sense. It is easier to know what to feel when

things are more black or white. The answer to your question is

probably not a simple matter or either the fighting was too hard

or he was worried about what would happen if he left. Most

likely it was some combination of both or those things plus some

other factors. Life is complicated. I think the question you

should be asking is whether he did the best he could or not. If

he did the best he could, don't be too hard on him. Sometimes

there just aren't any good choices and people have to try to

make the best of one of the bad choices available without

knowing what they're actually going to lead to.

I was lucky in that my nada did things that were so contrary to

what society found acceptable that there was no question about

my father getting custody of me and my brother when he decided

to divorce her. She had an affair, told me about it then forced

me to be the one to tell my father about it. Even at a time when

women were routinely given custody, that would have been too

much for most judges. Plus she got herself sent to a mental

hospital for pretending to try to commit suicide. My poor

half-sister had worse luck. Nada decided to leave her father

when she was 4 or 5 and took my sister. Nada's second husband

didn't have any good grounds to prevent my nada from having

primary custody of my sister. Plus he had his own problems and I

don't believe he's ever understood that nada is mentally ill. He

made a mistake marrying nada and once that was done there were

no good choices for him.

At 04:07 PM 11/28/2010 Anne wrote:

>Thanks everyone. I haven't been on here for a while--it seems

>that I only end up here after I've had some sort of contact

>with Nada. (My most recent contact will be the topic of

>another post.)

>

>I do want to let people know that my dad doesn't have BPD or

>NPD traits. He's a genuinely nice guy, who seems to have some

>weird hero complex where he feels has to be my mom's protector

>(I don't know what that diagnoses would be). Also, I do

>remember a several times when I was younger when Dad stood up

>to mom on our behalf. This usually resulted in my mom

>threatening divorce. I also clearly remember coming home from

>college once (I'm the oldest child in a large family) and

>witnessing Nada " blow up " and having my dad say to me, " I'm not

>sure how much longer I can hold this together " . It was the

>only time I ever heard my father say anything remotely negative

>about his marriage or my mother. After that day, I feel he

>stopped trying to advocate for his children. I guess I'm angry

>at him for ceasing to fight for us, but I also feel that if he

>had continued to " fight " for my siblings they would have been

>in a worse situation because mom would have had custody of them

>in a divorce (I don't include myself, because I was an adult by

>this point).

>

>It would be easier to not feel sympathy if he had been crazy

>like my mom, or left us completely unprotected, but that isn't

>quite the way it was. Does it make sense at all? Did he

>accept the status quo because fighting got too hard on him, or

>was he worried about what would happen to his kids if he

>left? I guess that is what it boils down to for me--and I'm

>afraid to to know the answer.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

I jokingly (or not so jokingly?, is that a word? say that my dad drives the

get away car in their dysfunctional relationship. Although he is suppose to be

the " healthy " one in the relationship, the fact that he is participating in

their dysfunctional relationship makes him an integral and necessary component

in the mental illness.

My nada is high functioning and both of my parents are truly great people

separately. However, any interaction between my FOO is fully tainted by her bpd

mental illness.

I found, when I first " diagnosed " my nada with bpd, I had a lot of anger toward

her. But that anger has slowly changed over to more pitty as I realize she

really can't stop herself. I now go back and forth between anger toward my

father for allowing her to rule our roost with her controling ways and sadness

that he allowed her to stop us (dad and me) from having any meaningful contact

or relationship because of her jealousy.

My family has always been very musical. I never took to any instruments like my

brothers did but I loved to sing. I was in church choirs my whole life and sang

to music all the time. My fada was a very accomplished singer, from traveling

internationally with a quartet to singing in local musicals/choirs. I loved

singing but I have been haunted lately that I can't remember my father EVER

helping me with a music piece or preparing for a solo. Not once. It's sad and

that alone tells me he chose her at my expense almost every time.

I don't know if this helps at all but it also became clear when my parents,

brother and I tried a few briefs stints with counseling; my father started

whining that he had to deal with nada all by himself and started threatening to

" cut us out " monetarily if we didn't stop confronting nada and him. When it

comes down to it, he is just as ill in many respects.

I would also label fada as a quiet/good guy but with underlying NPD

characteristics. My dad's dad was NPD/BPD and his mother was a dishrag. His

brother and his wife show the same tendencies. Ugh, the carnage and the sh*t

that refuses to defy gravity...

peace

patinage

>

>

> Thanks everyone. I haven't been on here for a while--it seems that I only end

up here after I've had some sort of contact with Nada. (My most recent contact

will be the topic of another post.)

>

> I do want to let people know that my dad doesn't have BPD or NPD traits. He's

a genuinely nice guy, who seems to have some weird hero complex where he feels

has to be my mom's protector (I don't know what that diagnoses would be). Also,

I do remember a several times when I was younger when Dad stood up to mom on our

behalf. This usually resulted in my mom threatening divorce. I also clearly

remember coming home from college once (I'm the oldest child in a large family)

and witnessing Nada " blow up " and having my dad say to me, " I'm not sure how

much longer I can hold this together " . It was the only time I ever heard my

father say anything remotely negative about his marriage or my mother. After

that day, I feel he stopped trying to advocate for his children. I guess I'm

angry at him for ceasing to fight for us, but I also feel that if he had

continued to " fight " for my siblings they would have been in a worse situation

because mom would have had custody of them in a divorce (I don't include myself,

because I was an adult by this point).

>

> It would be easier to not feel sympathy if he had been crazy like my mom, or

left us completely unprotected, but that isn't quite the way it was. Does it

make sense at all? Did he accept the status quo because fighting got too hard

on him, or was he worried about what would happen to his kids if he left? I

guess that is what it boils down to for me--and I'm afraid to to know the

answer.

>

[Guest guest]

You asked why your dad behaved the way he did - and I think you were correct

in suggesting that he stayed with your mom to protect the kids. I was a bit

surprised that you were afraid to know the answer - for me, I was married to

a BPD for 27 years and I put up with a lot of shit because I loved my kids

and there was a point where I knew their best hope lay in me modeling how to

cope. I am still close to both my daughters though we try to never discuss

their mom - it's part of my No Contact policy to not involve them and

triangulate their relationship with their mother. We tend to only talk in

reverent terms about the good things from when they were, say ten years

old.. Btu I wonder - since you are the daughter there is no harm in telling

your dad you love him and respect him for what he has done... every father

wants to hear that from his kids every now and then...

[Guest guest]

I don't know about how much sympathy one should (or should not) feel for either

the parent with bpd, or the enabling, enmeshed spouse.

All I can relay is my own experience and choices.

My mother is a high-functioning bpd, and although I have come to believe that

personality disorder is a physical, organic brain malfunction, I also believe

that high-functioning individuals with bpd DO INDEED have the ability to choose

on a moment-by-moment basis whether to act on their emotionally-dysregulated

impulses or not, and whether to seek treatment or not. My nada only lashed out

at Sister and me and dad in private; she was sweet as pie in public.

So, I don't feel very much sympathy for my nada now that her behaviors have

resulted in me needing to stay no-contact in order to protect myself from

further abuse. I got to the point where I couldn't take it anymore, after

decades of her Jekyll-and-Hyde behavior.

I think my dad remained married to my nada for reasons to do with his own

abandonment as a child (my dad's father abandoned his kids and wife to starve

during the Great Depression) and because if he did divorce my nada then Sister

and I would have been in nada's sole custody. And I think that for most of

their marriage he actually did love her; I'm not so sure nada loved dad. I

think she needed him, but I'm not sure that she loved him.

So... I think my dad did the best he could. I feel some sympathy for him.

-Annie

>

> I jokingly (or not so jokingly?, is that a word? say that my dad drives the

get away car in their dysfunctional relationship. Although he is suppose to be

the " healthy " one in the relationship, the fact that he is participating in

their dysfunctional relationship makes him an integral and necessary component

in the mental illness.

>

> My nada is high functioning and both of my parents are truly great people

separately. However, any interaction between my FOO is fully tainted by her bpd

mental illness.

>

> I found, when I first " diagnosed " my nada with bpd, I had a lot of anger

toward her. But that anger has slowly changed over to more pitty as I realize

she really can't stop herself. I now go back and forth between anger toward my

father for allowing her to rule our roost with her controling ways and sadness

that he allowed her to stop us (dad and me) from having any meaningful contact

or relationship because of her jealousy.

>

> My family has always been very musical. I never took to any instruments like

my brothers did but I loved to sing. I was in church choirs my whole life and

sang to music all the time. My fada was a very accomplished singer, from

traveling internationally with a quartet to singing in local musicals/choirs. I

loved singing but I have been haunted lately that I can't remember my father

EVER helping me with a music piece or preparing for a solo. Not once. It's sad

and that alone tells me he chose her at my expense almost every time.

>

> I don't know if this helps at all but it also became clear when my parents,

brother and I tried a few briefs stints with counseling; my father started

whining that he had to deal with nada all by himself and started threatening to

" cut us out " monetarily if we didn't stop confronting nada and him. When it

comes down to it, he is just as ill in many respects.

>

> I would also label fada as a quiet/good guy but with underlying NPD

characteristics. My dad's dad was NPD/BPD and his mother was a dishrag. His

brother and his wife show the same tendencies. Ugh, the carnage and the sh*t

that refuses to defy gravity...

>

> peace

> patinage

[Guest guest]

I don't know about how much sympathy one should (or should not) feel for either

the parent with bpd, or the enabling, enmeshed spouse.

All I can relay is my own experience and choices.

My mother is a high-functioning bpd, and although I have come to believe that

personality disorder is a physical, organic brain malfunction, I also believe

that high-functioning individuals with bpd DO INDEED have the ability to choose

on a moment-by-moment basis whether to act on their emotionally-dysregulated

impulses or not, and whether to seek treatment or not. My nada only lashed out

at Sister and me and dad in private; she was sweet as pie in public.

So, I don't feel very much sympathy for my nada now that her behaviors have

resulted in me needing to stay no-contact in order to protect myself from

further abuse. I got to the point where I couldn't take it anymore, after

decades of her Jekyll-and-Hyde behavior.

I think my dad remained married to my nada for reasons to do with his own

abandonment as a child (my dad's father abandoned his kids and wife to starve

during the Great Depression) and because if he did divorce my nada then Sister

and I would have been in nada's sole custody. And I think that for most of

their marriage he actually did love her; I'm not so sure nada loved dad. I

think she needed him, but I'm not sure that she loved him.

So... I think my dad did the best he could. I feel some sympathy for him.

-Annie

>

> I jokingly (or not so jokingly?, is that a word? say that my dad drives the

get away car in their dysfunctional relationship. Although he is suppose to be

the " healthy " one in the relationship, the fact that he is participating in

their dysfunctional relationship makes him an integral and necessary component

in the mental illness.

>

> My nada is high functioning and both of my parents are truly great people

separately. However, any interaction between my FOO is fully tainted by her bpd

mental illness.

>

> I found, when I first " diagnosed " my nada with bpd, I had a lot of anger

toward her. But that anger has slowly changed over to more pitty as I realize

she really can't stop herself. I now go back and forth between anger toward my

father for allowing her to rule our roost with her controling ways and sadness

that he allowed her to stop us (dad and me) from having any meaningful contact

or relationship because of her jealousy.

>

> My family has always been very musical. I never took to any instruments like

my brothers did but I loved to sing. I was in church choirs my whole life and

sang to music all the time. My fada was a very accomplished singer, from

traveling internationally with a quartet to singing in local musicals/choirs. I

loved singing but I have been haunted lately that I can't remember my father

EVER helping me with a music piece or preparing for a solo. Not once. It's sad

and that alone tells me he chose her at my expense almost every time.

>

> I don't know if this helps at all but it also became clear when my parents,

brother and I tried a few briefs stints with counseling; my father started

whining that he had to deal with nada all by himself and started threatening to

" cut us out " monetarily if we didn't stop confronting nada and him. When it

comes down to it, he is just as ill in many respects.

>

> I would also label fada as a quiet/good guy but with underlying NPD

characteristics. My dad's dad was NPD/BPD and his mother was a dishrag. His

brother and his wife show the same tendencies. Ugh, the carnage and the sh*t

that refuses to defy gravity...

>

> peace

> patinage

[Guest guest]

Sounds like he's " the huntsman " that's my dad, too. Why they take on these

crazy women I don't know.

On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 4:11 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> I don't know about how much sympathy one should (or should not) feel for

> either the parent with bpd, or the enabling, enmeshed spouse.

>

> All I can relay is my own experience and choices.

>

> My mother is a high-functioning bpd, and although I have come to believe

> that personality disordeSoundr is a physical, organic brain malfunction, I

> also believe that high-functioning individuals with bpd DO INDEED have the

> ability to choose on a moment-by-moment basis whether to act on their

> emotionally-dysregulated impulses or not, and whether to seek treatment or

> not. My nada only lashed out at Sister and me and dad in private; she was

> sweet as pie in public.

>

> So, I don't feel very much sympathy for my nada now that her behaviors have

> resulted in me needing to stay no-contact in order to protect myself from

> further abuse. I got to the point where I couldn't take it anymore, after

> decades of her Jekyll-and-Hyde behavior.

>

> I think my dad remained married to my nada for reasons to do with his own

> abandonment as a child (my dad's father abandoned his kids and wife to

> starve during the Great Depression) and because if he did divorce my nada

> then Sister and I would have been in nada's sole custody. And I think that

> for most of their marriage he actually did love her; I'm not so sure nada

> loved dad. I think she needed him, but I'm not sure that she loved him.

>

> So... I think my dad did the best he could. I feel some sympathy for him.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > I jokingly (or not so jokingly?, is that a word? say that my dad drives

> the get away car in their dysfunctional relationship. Although he is suppose

> to be the " healthy " one in the relationship, the fact that he is

> participating in their dysfunctional relationship makes him an integral and

> necessary component in the mental illness.

> >

> > My nada is high functioning and both of my parents are truly great people

> separately. However, any interaction between my FOO is fully tainted by her

> bpd mental illness.

> >

> > I found, when I first " diagnosed " my nada with bpd, I had a lot of anger

> toward her. But that anger has slowly changed over to more pitty as I

> realize she really can't stop herself. I now go back and forth between anger

> toward my father for allowing her to rule our roost with her controling ways

> and sadness that he allowed her to stop us (dad and me) from having any

> meaningful contact or relationship because of her jealousy.

> >

> > My family has always been very musical. I never took to any instruments

> like my brothers did but I loved to sing. I was in church choirs my whole

> life and sang to music all the time. My fada was a very accomplished singer,

> from traveling internationally with a quartet to singing in local

> musicals/choirs. I loved singing but I have been haunted lately that I can't

> remember my father EVER helping me with a music piece or preparing for a

> solo. Not once. It's sad and that alone tells me he chose her at my expense

> almost every time.

> >

> > I don't know if this helps at all but it also became clear when my

> parents, brother and I tried a few briefs stints with counseling; my father

> started whining that he had to deal with nada all by himself and started

> threatening to " cut us out " monetarily if we didn't stop confronting nada

> and him. When it comes down to it, he is just as ill in many respects.

> >

> > I would also label fada as a quiet/good guy but with underlying NPD

> characteristics. My dad's dad was NPD/BPD and his mother was a dishrag. His

> brother and his wife show the same tendencies. Ugh, the carnage and the sh*t

> that refuses to defy gravity...

> >

> > peace

> > patinage

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Anne,

I obviously don't know you or your father, but I would like to tell you about my

husband.

He made a clear and conscious decision to stay with his first wife and made it

for about 10 years before she left him. He has told me how he decided to back

down and ignore her as much as possible. He truly felt his children were in

danger and saw no other way to help them. He is a strong and courageous man who

is not afraid of a fight. (Trust me, I know; he fights with me plenty. ha ha)

In my husband's case, he did what he thought best for those kids. I admire him

for that, even if I might have handled it differently. But men in our society

can find themselves in an even worse position with abuse than women sometimes.

This woman was as BPD as they come. She was not physically violent, but did her

best to destroy the children. When she left, things got much worse for the

younger child, a daughter. My husband always paid support and the neverending

court costs in an attempt to help keep his daughter as safe as possible. She

went through a lot of terrible things anyway (Her mom worked nights, she was

alone every night at age 11, there were untold numbers of men in and out of the

house, then she was moved to a dangerous part of town and subsequently kicked

out of the house). The worst part was that the courts wouldn't let us do

anything, despite recordings, notes and attempts to get custody.

I don't know your father, but at least part of his reason (maybe the bigger

part) was for the good of the children.

Sincerely,

Coal Miner's Daughter

[Guest guest]

What an excellent explanation. The BPD can be a physical, organic brain

malfunction and aggravated by childhood abuse in some cases. But you make an

excellent point in that my mom can choose to be nice in public. So she is

choosing her behavior moment-to-moment. This is seemingly contradictory, but

actually makes sense. Thanks.

It's just like with my depression or anxiety. I wake up some mornings in a

certain state that is almost certainly chemical/physical. But I can choose to

pull those shoes on and step outside. Improvement then follows. Organic

problem + behavior choices. I get it.

>>

> My mother is a high-functioning bpd, and although I have come to believe that

personality disorder is a physical, organic brain malfunction, I also believe

that high-functioning individuals with bpd DO INDEED have the ability to choose

on a moment-by-moment basis whether to act on their emotionally-dysregulated

impulses or not, and whether to seek treatment or not. My nada only lashed out

at Sister and me and dad in private; she was sweet as pie in public.

> >

> -Annie

>

>

[Guest guest]

Somebody wrote:

" This is so sad! I don't see how a man with any conscious at all would have

many children with an unfit mother. I have noticed there's a trend with " dad

was a really good guy and mom was a demon " . I grew up with that dynamic. I

feel so sad for what you've endured and what you may come to discover. All

my best to you and yours! "

Well, I have the answer to that question for you. I usually read both the

WTO spouse and WTO adult children listserves, interesting to think about the

overlap. I was married to a BPD for 27 years. and at the beginning I just

thought it was a tempestuous relationship ( she had red hair and was Boston

Irish.).. There is a lot on the other list about why a man would stay - well

- how to explain - for one thing, at the age of 22 or 25, I had no idea what

I was in for - or at least- I ignored the warning signs- sure, we would have

anger-filled fights that I did not understand, but then there were make-up

sessions full of passion and (for me) joy. My BPD spouse was able to reel me

back in using sex as a tool ( she knew my weak points, she was very

attractive and I loved the attention when it was doled out).. I helped her

get pregnant with gusto, and I know that in the back of my mind I was hoping

that having kids together would prevent her from ever leaving me again - not

the best motivation maybe but I would do it all over again - and for me,

there was love. At first. How do you know, when you meet a person at the age

of 20, whether she will be an unfit mother, esp if she is high functioning

and outward acting? The answer is, you don't - and most spouses are drama

addicts - read what they say on the other listserve-

Does this help?

[Guest guest]

Somebody wrote:

" This is so sad! I don't see how a man with any conscious at all would have

many children with an unfit mother. I have noticed there's a trend with " dad

was a really good guy and mom was a demon " . I grew up with that dynamic. I

feel so sad for what you've endured and what you may come to discover. All

my best to you and yours! "

Well, I have the answer to that question for you. I usually read both the

WTO spouse and WTO adult children listserves, interesting to think about the

overlap. I was married to a BPD for 27 years. and at the beginning I just

thought it was a tempestuous relationship ( she had red hair and was Boston

Irish.).. There is a lot on the other list about why a man would stay - well

- how to explain - for one thing, at the age of 22 or 25, I had no idea what

I was in for - or at least- I ignored the warning signs- sure, we would have

anger-filled fights that I did not understand, but then there were make-up

sessions full of passion and (for me) joy. My BPD spouse was able to reel me

back in using sex as a tool ( she knew my weak points, she was very

attractive and I loved the attention when it was doled out).. I helped her

get pregnant with gusto, and I know that in the back of my mind I was hoping

that having kids together would prevent her from ever leaving me again - not

the best motivation maybe but I would do it all over again - and for me,

there was love. At first. How do you know, when you meet a person at the age

of 20, whether she will be an unfit mother, esp if she is high functioning

and outward acting? The answer is, you don't - and most spouses are drama

addicts - read what they say on the other listserve-

Does this help?

[Guest guest]

Somebody wrote:

" This is so sad! I don't see how a man with any conscious at all would have

many children with an unfit mother. I have noticed there's a trend with " dad

was a really good guy and mom was a demon " . I grew up with that dynamic. I

feel so sad for what you've endured and what you may come to discover. All

my best to you and yours! "

Well, I have the answer to that question for you. I usually read both the

WTO spouse and WTO adult children listserves, interesting to think about the

overlap. I was married to a BPD for 27 years. and at the beginning I just

thought it was a tempestuous relationship ( she had red hair and was Boston

Irish.).. There is a lot on the other list about why a man would stay - well

- how to explain - for one thing, at the age of 22 or 25, I had no idea what

I was in for - or at least- I ignored the warning signs- sure, we would have

anger-filled fights that I did not understand, but then there were make-up

sessions full of passion and (for me) joy. My BPD spouse was able to reel me

back in using sex as a tool ( she knew my weak points, she was very

attractive and I loved the attention when it was doled out).. I helped her

get pregnant with gusto, and I know that in the back of my mind I was hoping

that having kids together would prevent her from ever leaving me again - not

the best motivation maybe but I would do it all over again - and for me,

there was love. At first. How do you know, when you meet a person at the age

of 20, whether she will be an unfit mother, esp if she is high functioning

and outward acting? The answer is, you don't - and most spouses are drama

addicts - read what they say on the other listserve-

Does this help?

[Guest guest]

Thanks for sharing that, Mainer. I have read posts in some of the " staying "

boards (at WTO and at other support groups) too, just to see if I could get a

handle on why someone would actually *choose* to stay with a mentally ill,

abusive spouse, and have children with such a person. And a lot of the posters'

answers are a lot like yours.

I think one of the reasons my dad stayed with my bpd/npd mom is that he actually

loved nada and I believe that they had a good sex life (it was a small house and

sound carries, as we all know) until after dad had a heart attack, anyway. It

would seem that the extreme emotions of bpd can have a beneficial side-effect in

that department: extreme passion.

But the kids get no beneficial side-effects from having a bpd parent, all the

kids get is emotional damage.

I wish that young couples would just delay having kids for the first 3 or 4

years of marriage just to see if they're both mentally healthy, emotionally

stable, and empathetic enough to be raising children.

I think a good rule of thumb is that if your beloved treats you like crap, he or

she is going to treat any children you might have like crap too; or worse.

-Annie

>

>

>

> " This is so sad! I don't see how a man with any conscious at all would have

> many children with an unfit mother. I have noticed there's a trend with " dad

> was a really good guy and mom was a demon " . I grew up with that dynamic. I

> feel so sad for what you've endured and what you may come to discover. All

> my best to you and yours! "

>

>

>

>

>

> Well, I have the answer to that question for you. I usually read both the

> WTO spouse and WTO adult children listserves, interesting to think about the

> overlap. I was married to a BPD for 27 years. and at the beginning I just

> thought it was a tempestuous relationship ( she had red hair and was Boston

> Irish.).. There is a lot on the other list about why a man would stay - well

> - how to explain - for one thing, at the age of 22 or 25, I had no idea what

> I was in for - or at least- I ignored the warning signs- sure, we would have

> anger-filled fights that I did not understand, but then there were make-up

> sessions full of passion and (for me) joy. My BPD spouse was able to reel me

> back in using sex as a tool ( she knew my weak points, she was very

> attractive and I loved the attention when it was doled out).. I helped her

> get pregnant with gusto, and I know that in the back of my mind I was hoping

> that having kids together would prevent her from ever leaving me again - not

> the best motivation maybe but I would do it all over again - and for me,

> there was love. At first. How do you know, when you meet a person at the age

> of 20, whether she will be an unfit mother, esp if she is high functioning

> and outward acting? The answer is, you don't - and most spouses are drama

> addicts - read what they say on the other listserve-

>

>

>

> Does this help?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for sharing that, Mainer. I have read posts in some of the " staying "

boards (at WTO and at other support groups) too, just to see if I could get a

handle on why someone would actually *choose* to stay with a mentally ill,

abusive spouse, and have children with such a person. And a lot of the posters'

answers are a lot like yours.

I think one of the reasons my dad stayed with my bpd/npd mom is that he actually

loved nada and I believe that they had a good sex life (it was a small house and

sound carries, as we all know) until after dad had a heart attack, anyway. It

would seem that the extreme emotions of bpd can have a beneficial side-effect in

that department: extreme passion.

But the kids get no beneficial side-effects from having a bpd parent, all the

kids get is emotional damage.

I wish that young couples would just delay having kids for the first 3 or 4

years of marriage just to see if they're both mentally healthy, emotionally

stable, and empathetic enough to be raising children.

I think a good rule of thumb is that if your beloved treats you like crap, he or

she is going to treat any children you might have like crap too; or worse.

-Annie

>

>

>

> " This is so sad! I don't see how a man with any conscious at all would have

> many children with an unfit mother. I have noticed there's a trend with " dad

> was a really good guy and mom was a demon " . I grew up with that dynamic. I

> feel so sad for what you've endured and what you may come to discover. All

> my best to you and yours! "

>

>

>

>

>

> Well, I have the answer to that question for you. I usually read both the

> WTO spouse and WTO adult children listserves, interesting to think about the

> overlap. I was married to a BPD for 27 years. and at the beginning I just

> thought it was a tempestuous relationship ( she had red hair and was Boston

> Irish.).. There is a lot on the other list about why a man would stay - well

> - how to explain - for one thing, at the age of 22 or 25, I had no idea what

> I was in for - or at least- I ignored the warning signs- sure, we would have

> anger-filled fights that I did not understand, but then there were make-up

> sessions full of passion and (for me) joy. My BPD spouse was able to reel me

> back in using sex as a tool ( she knew my weak points, she was very

> attractive and I loved the attention when it was doled out).. I helped her

> get pregnant with gusto, and I know that in the back of my mind I was hoping

> that having kids together would prevent her from ever leaving me again - not

> the best motivation maybe but I would do it all over again - and for me,

> there was love. At first. How do you know, when you meet a person at the age

> of 20, whether she will be an unfit mother, esp if she is high functioning

> and outward acting? The answer is, you don't - and most spouses are drama

> addicts - read what they say on the other listserve-

>

>

>

> Does this help?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for sharing that, Mainer. I have read posts in some of the " staying "

boards (at WTO and at other support groups) too, just to see if I could get a

handle on why someone would actually *choose* to stay with a mentally ill,

abusive spouse, and have children with such a person. And a lot of the posters'

answers are a lot like yours.

I think one of the reasons my dad stayed with my bpd/npd mom is that he actually

loved nada and I believe that they had a good sex life (it was a small house and

sound carries, as we all know) until after dad had a heart attack, anyway. It

would seem that the extreme emotions of bpd can have a beneficial side-effect in

that department: extreme passion.

But the kids get no beneficial side-effects from having a bpd parent, all the

kids get is emotional damage.

I wish that young couples would just delay having kids for the first 3 or 4

years of marriage just to see if they're both mentally healthy, emotionally

stable, and empathetic enough to be raising children.

I think a good rule of thumb is that if your beloved treats you like crap, he or

she is going to treat any children you might have like crap too; or worse.

-Annie

>

>

>

> " This is so sad! I don't see how a man with any conscious at all would have

> many children with an unfit mother. I have noticed there's a trend with " dad

> was a really good guy and mom was a demon " . I grew up with that dynamic. I

> feel so sad for what you've endured and what you may come to discover. All

> my best to you and yours! "

>

>

>

>

>

> Well, I have the answer to that question for you. I usually read both the

> WTO spouse and WTO adult children listserves, interesting to think about the

> overlap. I was married to a BPD for 27 years. and at the beginning I just

> thought it was a tempestuous relationship ( she had red hair and was Boston

> Irish.).. There is a lot on the other list about why a man would stay - well

> - how to explain - for one thing, at the age of 22 or 25, I had no idea what

> I was in for - or at least- I ignored the warning signs- sure, we would have

> anger-filled fights that I did not understand, but then there were make-up

> sessions full of passion and (for me) joy. My BPD spouse was able to reel me

> back in using sex as a tool ( she knew my weak points, she was very

> attractive and I loved the attention when it was doled out).. I helped her

> get pregnant with gusto, and I know that in the back of my mind I was hoping

> that having kids together would prevent her from ever leaving me again - not

> the best motivation maybe but I would do it all over again - and for me,

> there was love. At first. How do you know, when you meet a person at the age

> of 20, whether she will be an unfit mother, esp if she is high functioning

> and outward acting? The answer is, you don't - and most spouses are drama

> addicts - read what they say on the other listserve-

>

>

>

> Does this help?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, do we have the same dad? That is my family ALL OVER. My dad probably kept a

lot of stability in our family over the years - things very rarely got violent

when he was around, and I remember how as a teen I used to absolutely dread his

(increasingly frequent) business trips. For the longest time he was my hero

because of his ability to make peace out of the chaos of our home.

Now I'm just starting to deal with the fact that, all those times he tried to

keep the peace, he did it by colluding with her and excusing her inexcusably

cruel behavior. He saw that his children were being hurt by this woman, and his

advice was always to go with it. Let her have her way, don't engage with her

tactics, don't rock the boat. I'm starting to recognize that by enabling her,

he's at least partially responsible for every bruise and bad thing she laid on

me. And the bruises faded away, but the bad things she said to me are as fresh

as if she'd said them just this morning.

I can't help naturally having some sympathy for my dad because that's the kind

of person I am. But I'm finding it pretty important to keep in mind that he was

an adult with choices, and he chose blindness. I was a kid without any options,

and I looked to him for protection. And he chose - and still chooses - not to

see that the way she treats people is fundamentally wrong.

Psyclone.

[Guest guest]

Annie,

I think my father stayed with my nada for as long as he did

because he loved the person he imagined her to be. She was 14

when he met her, and given that she set out to seduce him early

on, I'm pretty sure that she didn't show her sick side to him

for at least several years. I think the reality of what she was

had long since departed from his idea of her, but I think he

kept his mental image of her through the years when I was

growing up. I think he loved that image of her even as he

divorced her. I also think that there was an element of

believing that their marriage vows were sacred and not to be

broken. It wasn't until it became very, very obvious that she

had broken those vows that he divorced her. Believing that

marriage is " 'til death do us part " isn't so common now, but it

was more so when many of us were young.

Waiting three or four years before having children seems like an

excellent idea to me but I'm not sure it would always do the

job. My parents didn't exactly rush into becoming parents

although they didn't wait that long.

At 12:35 PM 11/29/2010 anuria67854 wrote:

>Thanks for sharing that, Mainer. I have read posts in some of

>the " staying " boards (at WTO and at other support groups) too,

>just to see if I could get a handle on why someone would

>actually *choose* to stay with a mentally ill, abusive spouse,

>and have children with such a person. And a lot of the

>posters' answers are a lot like yours.

>

>I think one of the reasons my dad stayed with my bpd/npd mom is

>that he actually loved nada and I believe that they had a good

>sex life (it was a small house and sound carries, as we all

>know) until after dad had a heart attack, anyway. It would

>seem that the extreme emotions of bpd can have a beneficial

>side-effect in that department: extreme passion.

>

>But the kids get no beneficial side-effects from having a bpd

>parent, all the kids get is emotional damage.

>

>I wish that young couples would just delay having kids for the

>first 3 or 4 years of marriage just to see if they're both

>mentally healthy, emotionally stable, and empathetic enough to

>be raising children.

>

>I think a good rule of thumb is that if your beloved treats you

>like crap, he or she is going to treat any children you might

>have like crap too; or worse.

>

>-Annie

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Annie,

I think my father stayed with my nada for as long as he did

because he loved the person he imagined her to be. She was 14

when he met her, and given that she set out to seduce him early

on, I'm pretty sure that she didn't show her sick side to him

for at least several years. I think the reality of what she was

had long since departed from his idea of her, but I think he

kept his mental image of her through the years when I was

growing up. I think he loved that image of her even as he

divorced her. I also think that there was an element of

believing that their marriage vows were sacred and not to be

broken. It wasn't until it became very, very obvious that she

had broken those vows that he divorced her. Believing that

marriage is " 'til death do us part " isn't so common now, but it

was more so when many of us were young.

Waiting three or four years before having children seems like an

excellent idea to me but I'm not sure it would always do the

job. My parents didn't exactly rush into becoming parents

although they didn't wait that long.

At 12:35 PM 11/29/2010 anuria67854 wrote:

>Thanks for sharing that, Mainer. I have read posts in some of

>the " staying " boards (at WTO and at other support groups) too,

>just to see if I could get a handle on why someone would

>actually *choose* to stay with a mentally ill, abusive spouse,

>and have children with such a person. And a lot of the

>posters' answers are a lot like yours.

>

>I think one of the reasons my dad stayed with my bpd/npd mom is

>that he actually loved nada and I believe that they had a good

>sex life (it was a small house and sound carries, as we all

>know) until after dad had a heart attack, anyway. It would

>seem that the extreme emotions of bpd can have a beneficial

>side-effect in that department: extreme passion.

>

>But the kids get no beneficial side-effects from having a bpd

>parent, all the kids get is emotional damage.

>

>I wish that young couples would just delay having kids for the

>first 3 or 4 years of marriage just to see if they're both

>mentally healthy, emotionally stable, and empathetic enough to

>be raising children.

>

>I think a good rule of thumb is that if your beloved treats you

>like crap, he or she is going to treat any children you might

>have like crap too; or worse.

>

>-Annie

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Wow. I just can't even conceive of an adult man having sex with a 14 year old

minor and then claiming that *she seduced him.* Holy freaking cow. It

heartbreaking that kids can be so easily exploited like that. So, I'm guessing

that your nada's parents must have neglected her, mistreated her pretty badly,

sexually molested her/allowed her to be molested, or battered her for her to

become sexualized so early. Did your grandparents have pds also? So sad. She

wasn't even close to being done growing up yet if she married at 14. What a

tragedy, truly, that kids can get used like that.

-Annie

>

> Annie,

> I think my father stayed with my nada for as long as he did

> because he loved the person he imagined her to be. She was 14

> when he met her, and given that she set out to seduce him early

> on, I'm pretty sure that she didn't show her sick side to him

> for at least several years. I think the reality of what she was

> had long since departed from his idea of her, but I think he

> kept his mental image of her through the years when I was

> growing up. I think he loved that image of her even as he

> divorced her. I also think that there was an element of

> believing that their marriage vows were sacred and not to be

> broken. It wasn't until it became very, very obvious that she

> had broken those vows that he divorced her. Believing that

> marriage is " 'til death do us part " isn't so common now, but it

> was more so when many of us were young.

>

> Waiting three or four years before having children seems like an

> excellent idea to me but I'm not sure it would always do the

> job. My parents didn't exactly rush into becoming parents

> although they didn't wait that long.

[Guest guest]

Uh no, I think you read that the wrong way. Maybe I wasn't clear

enough. She's the one who claims she seduced him. She was 14 and

already plotting to get what she wanted out of life, which was

to move far away from her mother whom she hated. Nadas like to

scheme and are good at acting in ways that fool people. She

started early with that. My father was in the army, stationed

nearby. She met him and decided that she was going to hook him.

Her brothers thought he was wonderful too and they considered

him to be rich so she probably had help with that. (The fact

that they thought an army private's pay equated to being rich

shows how poor they were.) I have no idea just what her

" seduction " consisted of or how long it took. She's not exactly

a reputable source for that kind of information. I'm 100% sure

that she set out to get him to marry her but I don't have any

evidence at all that they actually had sex until after they got

married, which was after she finished high school. I can't

imagine my father having sex with her when she was still 14

although given her nymphomaniac tendencies, perhaps she talked

him into it. I don't think he saw much of her between the time

her family moved at 15 or 16 and the time they got married. They

were thousands of miles apart at that point. That may have

contributed to his false ideal of her.

I don't believe her parents mistreated her, at least not in an

abusive manner. What they did do was become Jehovah's Witnesses

and expect her to go to religious meetings with them, and then

her father got a brain tumor and TB and died when she was about

13. The brain tumor may or may not have made him act oddly and

badly. (Again, she's not a reliable source and she's never said

what he did other than saying he acted " strange " .) She hated her

mother's religion, she really, really hated being poor, and she

apparently had a problem with being disciplined so she wanted

out of her family badly. She made use of the fact that she was a

young and attractive female to achieve what she wanted and as

far as I can tell she has no regrets about what she did. BPD and

nymphomania together make for some really disturbing behavior.

As an adult she has a long history of using the possibility of

sex to get what she wants from men as well as pretending to be a

helpless female to encourage them to give her things and do

things for her. At least she stopped wanting them to marry her

after her second marriage.

At 04:39 PM 11/30/2010 anuria67854 wrote:

>Wow. I just can't even conceive of an adult man having sex

>with a 14 year old minor and then claiming that *she seduced

>him.* Holy freaking cow. It heartbreaking that kids can be so

>easily exploited like that. So, I'm guessing that your nada's

>parents must have neglected her, mistreated her pretty badly,

>sexually molested her/allowed her to be molested, or battered

>her for her to become sexualized so early. Did your

>grandparents have pds also? So sad. She wasn't even close to

>being done growing up yet if she married at 14. What a

>tragedy, truly, that kids can get used like that.

>

>-Annie

>

>

> >

> > Annie,

> > I think my father stayed with my nada for as long as he did

> > because he loved the person he imagined her to be. She was

> 14

> > when he met her, and given that she set out to seduce him

> early

> > on, I'm pretty sure that she didn't show her sick side to

> him

> > for at least several years. I think the reality of what she

> was

> > had long since departed from his idea of her, but I think he

>

> > kept his mental image of her through the years when I was

> > growing up. I think he loved that image of her even as he

> > divorced her. I also think that there was an element of

> > believing that their marriage vows were sacred and not to be

>

> > broken. It wasn't until it became very, very obvious that

> she

> > had broken those vows that he divorced her. Believing that

> > marriage is " 'til death do us part " isn't so common now, but

> it

> > was more so when many of us were young.

> >

> > Waiting three or four years before having children seems

> like an

> > excellent idea to me but I'm not sure it would always do the

>

> > job. My parents didn't exactly rush into becoming parents

> > although they didn't wait that long.

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------

>

> **This group is based on principles in Randi Kreger's new

> book The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality

> Disorder: New Tips and Tools to Stop Walking on Eggshells,

> available at www.BPDCentral.com.** Problems? Write

> @.... DO NOT RESPOND ON THE LIST.

>

>To unsub from this list, send a blank email to

>WTOAdultChildren1-unsubscribe .

>

>Recommended: " Toxic Parents, " " Surviving a Borderline Parent, "

>and " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (hard to find)Yahoo!

>Groups Links

>

>

>

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

My parents didn't have kids right away, they were together around 5 years before

they did. I never did understand why my dad decided to have kids with her, I've

asked him and he said " she was different then " . (She was high functioning, but

she was still crazy as long as I remember.) And when I've asked him why he

didn't take me away from her and divorce her when it became apparent she was

messed up, he said " I thought you needed a mother. " I think he has some issues

of his own that he would be with someone like her. Especially now, when she is

so mean to him. (She was nicer to him when I was at home and was the scapegoat.)

He refuses to leave her too, even though it doesn't seem like he is in love with

her anymore (I think he loves her, but is not " in love " ). When she goes online

and tries to get a boyfriend he is actually hopeful she actually will so he

won't have to take care of her anymore. She's got so many issues with any kind

of relationship with a human being, though, she can't even make it to a first

date. I understand him less than her - at least everything she does is

explainable with " BPD " . He feels obligated to her for some reason, he knows she

is scared of abandonment and is worried without him she would kill herself. I

guess he's willing to take her abuse rather than have that.

I feel sorry for him, but not nearly as sorry as I feel for my child self. His

is a chosen relationship, he's an adult, he can leave anytime. I never could. I

was forced to stay with her and I still suffer the consequences. He's not

mentally ill. He sacrificed himself for her willingly and can still change his

mind. I also still hold some resentment to him for not taking me away from her

when I was young, before I ever got depression, PTSD, or trichotillomania. Who

knows how much that shit is genetic and how much is her raising me, but I still

would've been better off. Maybe she's sick and couldn't help it, but he doesn't

have an excuse.

Casey

>

> Thanks for sharing that, Mainer. I have read posts in some of the " staying "

boards (at WTO and at other support groups) too, just to see if I could get a

handle on why someone would actually *choose* to stay with a mentally ill,

abusive spouse, and have children with such a person. And a lot of the posters'

answers are a lot like yours.

>

> I think one of the reasons my dad stayed with my bpd/npd mom is that he

actually loved nada and I believe that they had a good sex life (it was a small

house and sound carries, as we all know) until after dad had a heart attack,

anyway. It would seem that the extreme emotions of bpd can have a beneficial

side-effect in that department: extreme passion.

>

> But the kids get no beneficial side-effects from having a bpd parent, all the

kids get is emotional damage.

>

> I wish that young couples would just delay having kids for the first 3 or 4

years of marriage just to see if they're both mentally healthy, emotionally

stable, and empathetic enough to be raising children.

>

> I think a good rule of thumb is that if your beloved treats you like crap, he

or she is going to treat any children you might have like crap too; or worse.

>

> -Annie

[Guest guest]

My parents didn't have kids right away, they were together around 5 years before

they did. I never did understand why my dad decided to have kids with her, I've

asked him and he said " she was different then " . (She was high functioning, but

she was still crazy as long as I remember.) And when I've asked him why he

didn't take me away from her and divorce her when it became apparent she was

messed up, he said " I thought you needed a mother. " I think he has some issues

of his own that he would be with someone like her. Especially now, when she is

so mean to him. (She was nicer to him when I was at home and was the scapegoat.)

He refuses to leave her too, even though it doesn't seem like he is in love with

her anymore (I think he loves her, but is not " in love " ). When she goes online

and tries to get a boyfriend he is actually hopeful she actually will so he

won't have to take care of her anymore. She's got so many issues with any kind

of relationship with a human being, though, she can't even make it to a first

date. I understand him less than her - at least everything she does is

explainable with " BPD " . He feels obligated to her for some reason, he knows she

is scared of abandonment and is worried without him she would kill herself. I

guess he's willing to take her abuse rather than have that.

I feel sorry for him, but not nearly as sorry as I feel for my child self. His

is a chosen relationship, he's an adult, he can leave anytime. I never could. I

was forced to stay with her and I still suffer the consequences. He's not

mentally ill. He sacrificed himself for her willingly and can still change his

mind. I also still hold some resentment to him for not taking me away from her

when I was young, before I ever got depression, PTSD, or trichotillomania. Who

knows how much that shit is genetic and how much is her raising me, but I still

would've been better off. Maybe she's sick and couldn't help it, but he doesn't

have an excuse.

Casey

>

> Thanks for sharing that, Mainer. I have read posts in some of the " staying "

boards (at WTO and at other support groups) too, just to see if I could get a

handle on why someone would actually *choose* to stay with a mentally ill,

abusive spouse, and have children with such a person. And a lot of the posters'

answers are a lot like yours.

>

> I think one of the reasons my dad stayed with my bpd/npd mom is that he

actually loved nada and I believe that they had a good sex life (it was a small

house and sound carries, as we all know) until after dad had a heart attack,

anyway. It would seem that the extreme emotions of bpd can have a beneficial

side-effect in that department: extreme passion.

>

> But the kids get no beneficial side-effects from having a bpd parent, all the

kids get is emotional damage.

>

> I wish that young couples would just delay having kids for the first 3 or 4

years of marriage just to see if they're both mentally healthy, emotionally

stable, and empathetic enough to be raising children.

>

> I think a good rule of thumb is that if your beloved treats you like crap, he

or she is going to treat any children you might have like crap too; or worse.

>

> -Annie