Guest guest Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 Hi Fiona, I love your battle cry Enforcers: KISS MY ASS!!!!! Excellent, lol! I'm amazed that your cousin feels empowered to be an enforcer - she would be in the same generation as you, right? I guess these people have no shortage of nerve. To dictate another person's obligations to another person - when it's not even *about* them just shows a very special and obnoxious mindset. To do that at your father's funeral is really low. Thank goodness she's not a big part of your life at least? > > Hi , > Just saw this message. > Yes, most definitely this happens with our family, too. My cousin is our enforcer. > We're LC with her. My mother stays in touch with her and her mother out of necessity, from time to time. I dislike her very much. VERY much. She's bossy and, like your enforcer, because she chose to make certain sacrificial choices in her life, EVERYONE has to do so now. > > At my father's funeral, she made clear to me I would now have to take my mother grocery shopping and do other stuff for her. She and her flying monkeys stayed the whole damned wake. I wish they would have left. They were making me ill. At least your aunt has more contact with you, it seems; but we hardly see my cousin, so it's incredibly annoying to hear her shrill, harpy voice " advising " me on how I need to care for my mother now. > > She and I never just have a conversation. She always has to take on the role and voice of a minor prophet.... " we're your FAMily! whether you like it or NOT! " > > I ran into her at the grocery store about a year and a half ago and it couldn't just be " hey, how's your family? good to see you, bye. " She starts in, " when are you going to come by?? you know, the ones that are going to lose out are YOUR kids. " So again, the prophet issues her proclamation AND she insults me by saying that my kids will lose out in life because they will not have had the incredible pleasure of being with her impeccably raised prophets-in-training. I yessed her to death and got the hell out of there. > > Why would I want to visit someone who commands me to do so?? Where is the pleasure in that? > > Enforcers: KISS MY ASS!!!!! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 Hi Fiona, I love your battle cry Enforcers: KISS MY ASS!!!!! Excellent, lol! I'm amazed that your cousin feels empowered to be an enforcer - she would be in the same generation as you, right? I guess these people have no shortage of nerve. To dictate another person's obligations to another person - when it's not even *about* them just shows a very special and obnoxious mindset. To do that at your father's funeral is really low. Thank goodness she's not a big part of your life at least? > > Hi , > Just saw this message. > Yes, most definitely this happens with our family, too. My cousin is our enforcer. > We're LC with her. My mother stays in touch with her and her mother out of necessity, from time to time. I dislike her very much. VERY much. She's bossy and, like your enforcer, because she chose to make certain sacrificial choices in her life, EVERYONE has to do so now. > > At my father's funeral, she made clear to me I would now have to take my mother grocery shopping and do other stuff for her. She and her flying monkeys stayed the whole damned wake. I wish they would have left. They were making me ill. At least your aunt has more contact with you, it seems; but we hardly see my cousin, so it's incredibly annoying to hear her shrill, harpy voice " advising " me on how I need to care for my mother now. > > She and I never just have a conversation. She always has to take on the role and voice of a minor prophet.... " we're your FAMily! whether you like it or NOT! " > > I ran into her at the grocery store about a year and a half ago and it couldn't just be " hey, how's your family? good to see you, bye. " She starts in, " when are you going to come by?? you know, the ones that are going to lose out are YOUR kids. " So again, the prophet issues her proclamation AND she insults me by saying that my kids will lose out in life because they will not have had the incredible pleasure of being with her impeccably raised prophets-in-training. I yessed her to death and got the hell out of there. > > Why would I want to visit someone who commands me to do so?? Where is the pleasure in that? > > Enforcers: KISS MY ASS!!!!! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 Hi Fiona, I love your battle cry Enforcers: KISS MY ASS!!!!! Excellent, lol! I'm amazed that your cousin feels empowered to be an enforcer - she would be in the same generation as you, right? I guess these people have no shortage of nerve. To dictate another person's obligations to another person - when it's not even *about* them just shows a very special and obnoxious mindset. To do that at your father's funeral is really low. Thank goodness she's not a big part of your life at least? > > Hi , > Just saw this message. > Yes, most definitely this happens with our family, too. My cousin is our enforcer. > We're LC with her. My mother stays in touch with her and her mother out of necessity, from time to time. I dislike her very much. VERY much. She's bossy and, like your enforcer, because she chose to make certain sacrificial choices in her life, EVERYONE has to do so now. > > At my father's funeral, she made clear to me I would now have to take my mother grocery shopping and do other stuff for her. She and her flying monkeys stayed the whole damned wake. I wish they would have left. They were making me ill. At least your aunt has more contact with you, it seems; but we hardly see my cousin, so it's incredibly annoying to hear her shrill, harpy voice " advising " me on how I need to care for my mother now. > > She and I never just have a conversation. She always has to take on the role and voice of a minor prophet.... " we're your FAMily! whether you like it or NOT! " > > I ran into her at the grocery store about a year and a half ago and it couldn't just be " hey, how's your family? good to see you, bye. " She starts in, " when are you going to come by?? you know, the ones that are going to lose out are YOUR kids. " So again, the prophet issues her proclamation AND she insults me by saying that my kids will lose out in life because they will not have had the incredible pleasure of being with her impeccably raised prophets-in-training. I yessed her to death and got the hell out of there. > > Why would I want to visit someone who commands me to do so?? Where is the pleasure in that? > > Enforcers: KISS MY ASS!!!!! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 Hi ...I'm slightly less fuzzy brained so I'll give it a go.... What you went through helping your fada and nada reminds me of something Annie(?) wrote about, that if they acknowledge that you've met their needs, show any gratitude then that would mean they are admitting they needed something, and you gave something which they cannot possibly do. Threatens their sense of who they are. It's amazing how much you were doing, really daily basic things, and for them to dismiss all of that...well it just shows they had a *need* to do so. Ugh. And then you reduce contact and that's all that matters. A similar version of this happened with my nada during the time I went NC just for a few months - it was as if nothing had come before this " abandonment " . A few years have passed since then and she's now written off the entire thing to me not " being myself " because of job stress. So no repentance, no learning, nothing. It's really amazing to me that your brother and aunt reacted negatively to you keeping them in the loop about your father dying. Wow. And your brother's implication that you wanted to see him die in some kind of morbid way - what the hell? You'd think they'd be glad that someone was there with him at all. Clearly crazy. I'm glad at least your father's friend was normal and appreciative. And what is it with aunts anyway? I've noticed every now and then you and others having problems with the sister of a nada....gotta be careful of them it seems. " That's the crazy making thing: they think their dysfunction is ok; they think they're " normal " ! So how do you even communicate properly with them when you can't even have a *real* conversation with them? " I think you've summed it all up right there. They live in a different reality, so different in fact that it is threatening to them on a fundamental level for me to talk with them about much of anything. Certainly not my needs or the ways in which they've been harmful. Living near them their expectations and demands are guaranteed to be unreasonable and my setting boundaries on that (which I'll have no choice of at that point) will then trigger Armageddon with them. Then it's permanent NC...no point in trying to live near them. That's so awful that you moved from being safe in London to be with your FOO - so good and decent of you as well, far more forgiveness for the past than they'd earned and it *still* went bad. Given some of what you've shared about your early years, it just shows the IMMENSE pressure of society and within our own psyches to be their for our parents in old age. " *they haven't changed* from how they were when they damaged you growing up.The scenario might be different but the dynamics are the same. " Exactly, yep yep yep. " Healthy parents *want* their children to thrive and *don't* want to burden them unnecessarily. " Ha! Yes, and unhealthy parents believe their children owe them infinitely for not killing or starving them or leaving them with no clothes to go to school naked. " and when your parent has done right by you all of your life,it's only natural that you'd want to do right by them in return,and if you don't,then yes you are the one with a problem. " And see HERE is the rub. The dysfunctional parents believe they have done right by the child, told the child all their lives they did right by them, and convinced the other FOO members that they did, and they talk a good game to strangers. So when the adult KO tries to take self-protective action they look like the one with the problem, inexplicably abandoning dear whoever. " though we struggle to do so on wings they clipped although they will deny that they actually clipped them forever.Point out that disconnect to them and they get so affronted because their illusions about themselves as " great parents " are at stake. " Oh yes, while I was soaring they took the credit and resented me at the same time. And when I fell they judged me for it. And yet if I don't meet my " obligations " I'm the horrible human being. " Even if she *says* it would just be for when and if she needs you for something,the intent is wanting a guardian angel.The suggestion is,still,that she can't do the job of taking care of herself. " Exactly - I think every waif nada especially wants their own created guardian angel KO. " What your aunt is doing with considering a move to your city after she retires is actually pushing a confrontation.....did she even say that, that she's considering this move *because* you won't come to her? " This was very interesting to me - I didn't think of it this way before. But she does know I don't want to live where she is. And she does know based on conversations i had in the past where I trusted her more that I would find living near my nada overhwleming. It would push a confrontation indeed. And no, she didn't say that....she rarely ever says anything directly nor does my nada. My family is machiaveillian in the extreme, everything is subtle, passive-aggressive, implied, we have silences instead of yells, the blank spaces tell the story. Hardly any of it would look abusive or even comprehensible to someone on the outside - but being raised within it is another matter. " What would they do if you told them flat out: No,I can't live near you.I *will* provide home care through an agency for you if you need it,but I can't live near you.I will come to visit you,but I can't live near you.I will help you to make arrangements for going into a nursing home when the time comes,but I can't live near you.I am not going to abandon you,but I can't live near you. > > Would that be like dropping a bomb? " Yes. Absolutey, the careful balance that allows everything to remain civil between us would be destroyed. A good chance it would lead to permanent NC or to things never being the same. Which might be inevitable or even for the best but would still break my heart. And that's the crux of things, I still care and I still want them to care and as long as that's true I'll hold back. But like you say all this isn't going down immediately...there's time to consider. Thanks much for understanding and thinking about all this, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 Hi ...I'm slightly less fuzzy brained so I'll give it a go.... What you went through helping your fada and nada reminds me of something Annie(?) wrote about, that if they acknowledge that you've met their needs, show any gratitude then that would mean they are admitting they needed something, and you gave something which they cannot possibly do. Threatens their sense of who they are. It's amazing how much you were doing, really daily basic things, and for them to dismiss all of that...well it just shows they had a *need* to do so. Ugh. And then you reduce contact and that's all that matters. A similar version of this happened with my nada during the time I went NC just for a few months - it was as if nothing had come before this " abandonment " . A few years have passed since then and she's now written off the entire thing to me not " being myself " because of job stress. So no repentance, no learning, nothing. It's really amazing to me that your brother and aunt reacted negatively to you keeping them in the loop about your father dying. Wow. And your brother's implication that you wanted to see him die in some kind of morbid way - what the hell? You'd think they'd be glad that someone was there with him at all. Clearly crazy. I'm glad at least your father's friend was normal and appreciative. And what is it with aunts anyway? I've noticed every now and then you and others having problems with the sister of a nada....gotta be careful of them it seems. " That's the crazy making thing: they think their dysfunction is ok; they think they're " normal " ! So how do you even communicate properly with them when you can't even have a *real* conversation with them? " I think you've summed it all up right there. They live in a different reality, so different in fact that it is threatening to them on a fundamental level for me to talk with them about much of anything. Certainly not my needs or the ways in which they've been harmful. Living near them their expectations and demands are guaranteed to be unreasonable and my setting boundaries on that (which I'll have no choice of at that point) will then trigger Armageddon with them. Then it's permanent NC...no point in trying to live near them. That's so awful that you moved from being safe in London to be with your FOO - so good and decent of you as well, far more forgiveness for the past than they'd earned and it *still* went bad. Given some of what you've shared about your early years, it just shows the IMMENSE pressure of society and within our own psyches to be their for our parents in old age. " *they haven't changed* from how they were when they damaged you growing up.The scenario might be different but the dynamics are the same. " Exactly, yep yep yep. " Healthy parents *want* their children to thrive and *don't* want to burden them unnecessarily. " Ha! Yes, and unhealthy parents believe their children owe them infinitely for not killing or starving them or leaving them with no clothes to go to school naked. " and when your parent has done right by you all of your life,it's only natural that you'd want to do right by them in return,and if you don't,then yes you are the one with a problem. " And see HERE is the rub. The dysfunctional parents believe they have done right by the child, told the child all their lives they did right by them, and convinced the other FOO members that they did, and they talk a good game to strangers. So when the adult KO tries to take self-protective action they look like the one with the problem, inexplicably abandoning dear whoever. " though we struggle to do so on wings they clipped although they will deny that they actually clipped them forever.Point out that disconnect to them and they get so affronted because their illusions about themselves as " great parents " are at stake. " Oh yes, while I was soaring they took the credit and resented me at the same time. And when I fell they judged me for it. And yet if I don't meet my " obligations " I'm the horrible human being. " Even if she *says* it would just be for when and if she needs you for something,the intent is wanting a guardian angel.The suggestion is,still,that she can't do the job of taking care of herself. " Exactly - I think every waif nada especially wants their own created guardian angel KO. " What your aunt is doing with considering a move to your city after she retires is actually pushing a confrontation.....did she even say that, that she's considering this move *because* you won't come to her? " This was very interesting to me - I didn't think of it this way before. But she does know I don't want to live where she is. And she does know based on conversations i had in the past where I trusted her more that I would find living near my nada overhwleming. It would push a confrontation indeed. And no, she didn't say that....she rarely ever says anything directly nor does my nada. My family is machiaveillian in the extreme, everything is subtle, passive-aggressive, implied, we have silences instead of yells, the blank spaces tell the story. Hardly any of it would look abusive or even comprehensible to someone on the outside - but being raised within it is another matter. " What would they do if you told them flat out: No,I can't live near you.I *will* provide home care through an agency for you if you need it,but I can't live near you.I will come to visit you,but I can't live near you.I will help you to make arrangements for going into a nursing home when the time comes,but I can't live near you.I am not going to abandon you,but I can't live near you. > > Would that be like dropping a bomb? " Yes. Absolutey, the careful balance that allows everything to remain civil between us would be destroyed. A good chance it would lead to permanent NC or to things never being the same. Which might be inevitable or even for the best but would still break my heart. And that's the crux of things, I still care and I still want them to care and as long as that's true I'll hold back. But like you say all this isn't going down immediately...there's time to consider. Thanks much for understanding and thinking about all this, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 Hi ...I'm slightly less fuzzy brained so I'll give it a go.... What you went through helping your fada and nada reminds me of something Annie(?) wrote about, that if they acknowledge that you've met their needs, show any gratitude then that would mean they are admitting they needed something, and you gave something which they cannot possibly do. Threatens their sense of who they are. It's amazing how much you were doing, really daily basic things, and for them to dismiss all of that...well it just shows they had a *need* to do so. Ugh. And then you reduce contact and that's all that matters. A similar version of this happened with my nada during the time I went NC just for a few months - it was as if nothing had come before this " abandonment " . A few years have passed since then and she's now written off the entire thing to me not " being myself " because of job stress. So no repentance, no learning, nothing. It's really amazing to me that your brother and aunt reacted negatively to you keeping them in the loop about your father dying. Wow. And your brother's implication that you wanted to see him die in some kind of morbid way - what the hell? You'd think they'd be glad that someone was there with him at all. Clearly crazy. I'm glad at least your father's friend was normal and appreciative. And what is it with aunts anyway? I've noticed every now and then you and others having problems with the sister of a nada....gotta be careful of them it seems. " That's the crazy making thing: they think their dysfunction is ok; they think they're " normal " ! So how do you even communicate properly with them when you can't even have a *real* conversation with them? " I think you've summed it all up right there. They live in a different reality, so different in fact that it is threatening to them on a fundamental level for me to talk with them about much of anything. Certainly not my needs or the ways in which they've been harmful. Living near them their expectations and demands are guaranteed to be unreasonable and my setting boundaries on that (which I'll have no choice of at that point) will then trigger Armageddon with them. Then it's permanent NC...no point in trying to live near them. That's so awful that you moved from being safe in London to be with your FOO - so good and decent of you as well, far more forgiveness for the past than they'd earned and it *still* went bad. Given some of what you've shared about your early years, it just shows the IMMENSE pressure of society and within our own psyches to be their for our parents in old age. " *they haven't changed* from how they were when they damaged you growing up.The scenario might be different but the dynamics are the same. " Exactly, yep yep yep. " Healthy parents *want* their children to thrive and *don't* want to burden them unnecessarily. " Ha! Yes, and unhealthy parents believe their children owe them infinitely for not killing or starving them or leaving them with no clothes to go to school naked. " and when your parent has done right by you all of your life,it's only natural that you'd want to do right by them in return,and if you don't,then yes you are the one with a problem. " And see HERE is the rub. The dysfunctional parents believe they have done right by the child, told the child all their lives they did right by them, and convinced the other FOO members that they did, and they talk a good game to strangers. So when the adult KO tries to take self-protective action they look like the one with the problem, inexplicably abandoning dear whoever. " though we struggle to do so on wings they clipped although they will deny that they actually clipped them forever.Point out that disconnect to them and they get so affronted because their illusions about themselves as " great parents " are at stake. " Oh yes, while I was soaring they took the credit and resented me at the same time. And when I fell they judged me for it. And yet if I don't meet my " obligations " I'm the horrible human being. " Even if she *says* it would just be for when and if she needs you for something,the intent is wanting a guardian angel.The suggestion is,still,that she can't do the job of taking care of herself. " Exactly - I think every waif nada especially wants their own created guardian angel KO. " What your aunt is doing with considering a move to your city after she retires is actually pushing a confrontation.....did she even say that, that she's considering this move *because* you won't come to her? " This was very interesting to me - I didn't think of it this way before. But she does know I don't want to live where she is. And she does know based on conversations i had in the past where I trusted her more that I would find living near my nada overhwleming. It would push a confrontation indeed. And no, she didn't say that....she rarely ever says anything directly nor does my nada. My family is machiaveillian in the extreme, everything is subtle, passive-aggressive, implied, we have silences instead of yells, the blank spaces tell the story. Hardly any of it would look abusive or even comprehensible to someone on the outside - but being raised within it is another matter. " What would they do if you told them flat out: No,I can't live near you.I *will* provide home care through an agency for you if you need it,but I can't live near you.I will come to visit you,but I can't live near you.I will help you to make arrangements for going into a nursing home when the time comes,but I can't live near you.I am not going to abandon you,but I can't live near you. > > Would that be like dropping a bomb? " Yes. Absolutey, the careful balance that allows everything to remain civil between us would be destroyed. A good chance it would lead to permanent NC or to things never being the same. Which might be inevitable or even for the best but would still break my heart. And that's the crux of things, I still care and I still want them to care and as long as that's true I'll hold back. But like you say all this isn't going down immediately...there's time to consider. Thanks much for understanding and thinking about all this, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 Healthy parents *want* their children to thrive and *don't* want to burden them unnecessarily. " I am afraid that the unnatural pressure they put on me will always destroy me over and over again. I'm a very positive person...I see the glass half full. But in this respect, I believe I will never feel emotionally free from this...and I break my own heart by feeling this way. Amy Re: the family enforcer Hi ...I'm slightly less fuzzy brained so I'll give it a go.... What you went through helping your fada and nada reminds me of something Annie(?) wrote about, that if they acknowledge that you've met their needs, show any gratitude then that would mean they are admitting they needed something, and you gave something which they cannot possibly do. Threatens their sense of who they are. It's amazing how much you were doing, really daily basic things, and for them to dismiss all of that...well it just shows they had a *need* to do so. Ugh. And then you reduce contact and that's all that matters. A similar version of this happened with my nada during the time I went NC just for a few months - it was as if nothing had come before this " abandonment " . A few years have passed since then and she's now written off the entire thing to me not " being myself " because of job stress. So no repentance, no learning, nothing. It's really amazing to me that your brother and aunt reacted negatively to you keeping them in the loop about your father dying. Wow. And your brother's implication that you wanted to see him die in some kind of morbid way - what the hell? You'd think they'd be glad that someone was there with him at all. Clearly crazy. I'm glad at least your father's friend was normal and appreciative. And what is it with aunts anyway? I've noticed every now and then you and others having problems with the sister of a nada....gotta be careful of them it seems. " That's the crazy making thing: they think their dysfunction is ok; they think they're " normal " ! So how do you even communicate properly with them when you can't even have a *real* conversation with them? " I think you've summed it all up right there. They live in a different reality, so different in fact that it is threatening to them on a fundamental level for me to talk with them about much of anything. Certainly not my needs or the ways in which they've been harmful. Living near them their expectations and demands are guaranteed to be unreasonable and my setting boundaries on that (which I'll have no choice of at that point) will then trigger Armageddon with them. Then it's permanent NC...no point in trying to live near them. That's so awful that you moved from being safe in London to be with your FOO - so good and decent of you as well, far more forgiveness for the past than they'd earned and it *still* went bad. Given some of what you've shared about your early years, it just shows the IMMENSE pressure of society and within our own psyches to be their for our parents in old age. " *they haven't changed* from how they were when they damaged you growing up.The scenario might be different but the dynamics are the same. " Exactly, yep yep yep. " Healthy parents *want* their children to thrive and *don't* want to burden them unnecessarily. " Ha! Yes, and unhealthy parents believe their children owe them infinitely for not killing or starving them or leaving them with no clothes to go to school naked. " and when your parent has done right by you all of your life,it's only natural that you'd want to do right by them in return,and if you don't,then yes you are the one with a problem. " And see HERE is the rub. The dysfunctional parents believe they have done right by the child, told the child all their lives they did right by them, and convinced the other FOO members that they did, and they talk a good game to strangers. So when the adult KO tries to take self-protective action they look like the one with the problem, inexplicably abandoning dear whoever. " though we struggle to do so on wings they clipped although they will deny that they actually clipped them forever.Point out that disconnect to them and they get so affronted because their illusions about themselves as " great parents " are at stake. " Oh yes, while I was soaring they took the credit and resented me at the same time. And when I fell they judged me for it. And yet if I don't meet my " obligations " I'm the horrible human being. " Even if she *says* it would just be for when and if she needs you for something,the intent is wanting a guardian angel.The suggestion is,still,that she can't do the job of taking care of herself. " Exactly - I think every waif nada especially wants their own created guardian angel KO. " What your aunt is doing with considering a move to your city after she retires is actually pushing a confrontation.....did she even say that, that she's considering this move *because* you won't come to her? " This was very interesting to me - I didn't think of it this way before. But she does know I don't want to live where she is. And she does know based on conversations i had in the past where I trusted her more that I would find living near my nada overhwleming. It would push a confrontation indeed. And no, she didn't say that....she rarely ever says anything directly nor does my nada. My family is machiaveillian in the extreme, everything is subtle, passive-aggressive, implied, we have silences instead of yells, the blank spaces tell the story. Hardly any of it would look abusive or even comprehensible to someone on the outside - but being raised within it is another matter. " What would they do if you told them flat out: No,I can't live near you.I *will* provide home care through an agency for you if you need it,but I can't live near you.I will come to visit you,but I can't live near you.I will help you to make arrangements for going into a nursing home when the time comes,but I can't live near you.I am not going to abandon you,but I can't live near you. > > Would that be like dropping a bomb? " Yes. Absolutey, the careful balance that allows everything to remain civil between us would be destroyed. A good chance it would lead to permanent NC or to things never being the same. Which might be inevitable or even for the best but would still break my heart. And that's the crux of things, I still care and I still want them to care and as long as that's true I'll hold back. But like you say all this isn't going down immediately...there's time to consider. Thanks much for understanding and thinking about all this, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 Healthy parents *want* their children to thrive and *don't* want to burden them unnecessarily. " I am afraid that the unnatural pressure they put on me will always destroy me over and over again. I'm a very positive person...I see the glass half full. But in this respect, I believe I will never feel emotionally free from this...and I break my own heart by feeling this way. Amy Re: the family enforcer Hi ...I'm slightly less fuzzy brained so I'll give it a go.... What you went through helping your fada and nada reminds me of something Annie(?) wrote about, that if they acknowledge that you've met their needs, show any gratitude then that would mean they are admitting they needed something, and you gave something which they cannot possibly do. Threatens their sense of who they are. It's amazing how much you were doing, really daily basic things, and for them to dismiss all of that...well it just shows they had a *need* to do so. Ugh. And then you reduce contact and that's all that matters. A similar version of this happened with my nada during the time I went NC just for a few months - it was as if nothing had come before this " abandonment " . A few years have passed since then and she's now written off the entire thing to me not " being myself " because of job stress. So no repentance, no learning, nothing. It's really amazing to me that your brother and aunt reacted negatively to you keeping them in the loop about your father dying. Wow. And your brother's implication that you wanted to see him die in some kind of morbid way - what the hell? You'd think they'd be glad that someone was there with him at all. Clearly crazy. I'm glad at least your father's friend was normal and appreciative. And what is it with aunts anyway? I've noticed every now and then you and others having problems with the sister of a nada....gotta be careful of them it seems. " That's the crazy making thing: they think their dysfunction is ok; they think they're " normal " ! So how do you even communicate properly with them when you can't even have a *real* conversation with them? " I think you've summed it all up right there. They live in a different reality, so different in fact that it is threatening to them on a fundamental level for me to talk with them about much of anything. Certainly not my needs or the ways in which they've been harmful. Living near them their expectations and demands are guaranteed to be unreasonable and my setting boundaries on that (which I'll have no choice of at that point) will then trigger Armageddon with them. Then it's permanent NC...no point in trying to live near them. That's so awful that you moved from being safe in London to be with your FOO - so good and decent of you as well, far more forgiveness for the past than they'd earned and it *still* went bad. Given some of what you've shared about your early years, it just shows the IMMENSE pressure of society and within our own psyches to be their for our parents in old age. " *they haven't changed* from how they were when they damaged you growing up.The scenario might be different but the dynamics are the same. " Exactly, yep yep yep. " Healthy parents *want* their children to thrive and *don't* want to burden them unnecessarily. " Ha! Yes, and unhealthy parents believe their children owe them infinitely for not killing or starving them or leaving them with no clothes to go to school naked. " and when your parent has done right by you all of your life,it's only natural that you'd want to do right by them in return,and if you don't,then yes you are the one with a problem. " And see HERE is the rub. The dysfunctional parents believe they have done right by the child, told the child all their lives they did right by them, and convinced the other FOO members that they did, and they talk a good game to strangers. So when the adult KO tries to take self-protective action they look like the one with the problem, inexplicably abandoning dear whoever. " though we struggle to do so on wings they clipped although they will deny that they actually clipped them forever.Point out that disconnect to them and they get so affronted because their illusions about themselves as " great parents " are at stake. " Oh yes, while I was soaring they took the credit and resented me at the same time. And when I fell they judged me for it. And yet if I don't meet my " obligations " I'm the horrible human being. " Even if she *says* it would just be for when and if she needs you for something,the intent is wanting a guardian angel.The suggestion is,still,that she can't do the job of taking care of herself. " Exactly - I think every waif nada especially wants their own created guardian angel KO. " What your aunt is doing with considering a move to your city after she retires is actually pushing a confrontation.....did she even say that, that she's considering this move *because* you won't come to her? " This was very interesting to me - I didn't think of it this way before. But she does know I don't want to live where she is. And she does know based on conversations i had in the past where I trusted her more that I would find living near my nada overhwleming. It would push a confrontation indeed. And no, she didn't say that....she rarely ever says anything directly nor does my nada. My family is machiaveillian in the extreme, everything is subtle, passive-aggressive, implied, we have silences instead of yells, the blank spaces tell the story. Hardly any of it would look abusive or even comprehensible to someone on the outside - but being raised within it is another matter. " What would they do if you told them flat out: No,I can't live near you.I *will* provide home care through an agency for you if you need it,but I can't live near you.I will come to visit you,but I can't live near you.I will help you to make arrangements for going into a nursing home when the time comes,but I can't live near you.I am not going to abandon you,but I can't live near you. > > Would that be like dropping a bomb? " Yes. Absolutey, the careful balance that allows everything to remain civil between us would be destroyed. A good chance it would lead to permanent NC or to things never being the same. Which might be inevitable or even for the best but would still break my heart. And that's the crux of things, I still care and I still want them to care and as long as that's true I'll hold back. But like you say all this isn't going down immediately...there's time to consider. Thanks much for understanding and thinking about all this, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 Healthy parents *want* their children to thrive and *don't* want to burden them unnecessarily. " I am afraid that the unnatural pressure they put on me will always destroy me over and over again. I'm a very positive person...I see the glass half full. But in this respect, I believe I will never feel emotionally free from this...and I break my own heart by feeling this way. Amy Re: the family enforcer Hi ...I'm slightly less fuzzy brained so I'll give it a go.... What you went through helping your fada and nada reminds me of something Annie(?) wrote about, that if they acknowledge that you've met their needs, show any gratitude then that would mean they are admitting they needed something, and you gave something which they cannot possibly do. Threatens their sense of who they are. It's amazing how much you were doing, really daily basic things, and for them to dismiss all of that...well it just shows they had a *need* to do so. Ugh. And then you reduce contact and that's all that matters. A similar version of this happened with my nada during the time I went NC just for a few months - it was as if nothing had come before this " abandonment " . A few years have passed since then and she's now written off the entire thing to me not " being myself " because of job stress. So no repentance, no learning, nothing. It's really amazing to me that your brother and aunt reacted negatively to you keeping them in the loop about your father dying. Wow. And your brother's implication that you wanted to see him die in some kind of morbid way - what the hell? You'd think they'd be glad that someone was there with him at all. Clearly crazy. I'm glad at least your father's friend was normal and appreciative. And what is it with aunts anyway? I've noticed every now and then you and others having problems with the sister of a nada....gotta be careful of them it seems. " That's the crazy making thing: they think their dysfunction is ok; they think they're " normal " ! So how do you even communicate properly with them when you can't even have a *real* conversation with them? " I think you've summed it all up right there. They live in a different reality, so different in fact that it is threatening to them on a fundamental level for me to talk with them about much of anything. Certainly not my needs or the ways in which they've been harmful. Living near them their expectations and demands are guaranteed to be unreasonable and my setting boundaries on that (which I'll have no choice of at that point) will then trigger Armageddon with them. Then it's permanent NC...no point in trying to live near them. That's so awful that you moved from being safe in London to be with your FOO - so good and decent of you as well, far more forgiveness for the past than they'd earned and it *still* went bad. Given some of what you've shared about your early years, it just shows the IMMENSE pressure of society and within our own psyches to be their for our parents in old age. " *they haven't changed* from how they were when they damaged you growing up.The scenario might be different but the dynamics are the same. " Exactly, yep yep yep. " Healthy parents *want* their children to thrive and *don't* want to burden them unnecessarily. " Ha! Yes, and unhealthy parents believe their children owe them infinitely for not killing or starving them or leaving them with no clothes to go to school naked. " and when your parent has done right by you all of your life,it's only natural that you'd want to do right by them in return,and if you don't,then yes you are the one with a problem. " And see HERE is the rub. The dysfunctional parents believe they have done right by the child, told the child all their lives they did right by them, and convinced the other FOO members that they did, and they talk a good game to strangers. So when the adult KO tries to take self-protective action they look like the one with the problem, inexplicably abandoning dear whoever. " though we struggle to do so on wings they clipped although they will deny that they actually clipped them forever.Point out that disconnect to them and they get so affronted because their illusions about themselves as " great parents " are at stake. " Oh yes, while I was soaring they took the credit and resented me at the same time. And when I fell they judged me for it. And yet if I don't meet my " obligations " I'm the horrible human being. " Even if she *says* it would just be for when and if she needs you for something,the intent is wanting a guardian angel.The suggestion is,still,that she can't do the job of taking care of herself. " Exactly - I think every waif nada especially wants their own created guardian angel KO. " What your aunt is doing with considering a move to your city after she retires is actually pushing a confrontation.....did she even say that, that she's considering this move *because* you won't come to her? " This was very interesting to me - I didn't think of it this way before. But she does know I don't want to live where she is. And she does know based on conversations i had in the past where I trusted her more that I would find living near my nada overhwleming. It would push a confrontation indeed. And no, she didn't say that....she rarely ever says anything directly nor does my nada. My family is machiaveillian in the extreme, everything is subtle, passive-aggressive, implied, we have silences instead of yells, the blank spaces tell the story. Hardly any of it would look abusive or even comprehensible to someone on the outside - but being raised within it is another matter. " What would they do if you told them flat out: No,I can't live near you.I *will* provide home care through an agency for you if you need it,but I can't live near you.I will come to visit you,but I can't live near you.I will help you to make arrangements for going into a nursing home when the time comes,but I can't live near you.I am not going to abandon you,but I can't live near you. > > Would that be like dropping a bomb? " Yes. Absolutey, the careful balance that allows everything to remain civil between us would be destroyed. A good chance it would lead to permanent NC or to things never being the same. Which might be inevitable or even for the best but would still break my heart. And that's the crux of things, I still care and I still want them to care and as long as that's true I'll hold back. But like you say all this isn't going down immediately...there's time to consider. Thanks much for understanding and thinking about all this, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 Me, too. Love it. Pretty much sums it up for me. So a few weeks ago, my 2nd grader got sent to the principal's office and I got called at home. I was walking the dog and my toddler around the neighborhood thinking how lovely the sunshine was. The teacher calls on my cell phone and informs me that my son told another student to kiss his ass at school today. She actually asked me where I thought he heard that. ha ha When he got home, I explained that we can't say those bad words. He said, how 'bout we only say bad words at home. I said, how 'bout we don't say them at all. He said, " Wow; great idea Mom! " Then he reassured me, " Don't worry Mom, I told the principal where I learned it - from you. " Thanks son. +Coal Miner's Daughter p.s. I was actually really proud of him - don't tell. > > Hi Fiona, I love your battle cry Enforcers: KISS MY ASS!!!!! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2010 Report Share Posted December 15, 2010 , The " careful balance that allows everything to remain civil " is familiar to me,it's like a " veneer of civilization " dysfunctional FOO style.It's so frustrating (and I think *tiring*) to be constantly before a metaphorical wall that you can't even tap on lest the entire edifice comes crashing down on your head.Still caring and still wanting them to care makes it harder--and yes,having that fall apart is heart breaking.Nobody wants to needlessly orphan themself,even adults,even KOs.The need to retain a family bond seems to me very primal and deep.I'm NC now with all of the FOO except a first cousin of nada's and his brothers.Even that is painful because I cannot be fully open and honest with this uncle about how nada really is,yet I don't want to " let it rip " with him because I know that would spell the end.I know he couldn't hear it.I know that would lead to NC with him,too.Perhaps that would be for the best,so that I can finally walk away permanantly from the general FOO charade/farce/unreality,but that would also mean that I have totally cut my moorings from all family and am sailing utterly solo--and right now the feeling that this would be more like being adrift on a " strange sea " without any family whatsoever is more than I can handle,so I allow things to just kind of shamble along with him as they are.I think that if I had a spouse and a family of my own that I would have that sense of primal " belonging " with them,but I can't seem to get there.So,I mean,I can understand your hesitancy about cutting ties from allowing a confrontation to be pushed.There are no easy answers and it sucks! The hook,for me with my uncle,is that he cares that I am family and that is just so hard to resist.Even though my " membership " in his conception of " family " amounts to me having to compromise my reality,at least to the extent of never really mentioning it to him.I have wondered: what is this family sense that is mostly a chimera yet is real? My uncle also behaves as if we as a family are some kind of endangered species that must be preserved,but-- You're under more pressure with your aunt than I am from my uncle.I wish I knew of a solution that would relieve that,but honestly I don't Except to purposefully dissuade her from wanting to live anywhere near you by calling her often being very needy and whiny--although I'll bet you have too much integrity to resort to that. It's really difficult to have all this awareness but not to be able to use it to improve matters.You do know exactly what's going on--but now what? When the " blank spaces tell the story " the crazy never gets addressed--and " silences instead of yells " can be really,really oppressive.Stultifying--and it *is* abuse. My " enforcer " aunt is actually fada's first cousin.They're a year apart in age and were more like siblings.These messed up FOOs...My aunt has an older brother who is a total ASPD and is persona non grata in the family--after her mother gave birth to this older brother the doctors told her not to have any more children because she was at risk of dying the next time (I don't know why exactly) and she disregarded the doctors' advice,got pregnant with my aunt,and died within hours of giving birth.So in the FOO it's always been " poor Janet (my aunt) who never knew her mother,we must cater to her " and boy has she played that.She expects everyone to make way for her,to yield to her.She's also an insufferable know-it-all. The most annoying thing about that phone call to her when fada was dying was that after she told me she'd ask my brother if she wanted to know anything,she told me that she hadn't spoken to him in days.Although they both knew fada was dying--they weren't even touching base.Not with the staff at the hospice,either.They were literally playing ostrich while professing to love fada so dearly and accusing *me* of having bad intentions for tending to him.Clearly crazy is right and thank you for validating that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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