Re: BPD mother and her therapist

[Guest guest]

I'd say your nada is a waif, and I'd guess maybe low functioning. You can

read about this type of BPD in Understanding the Borderline Mother.

>

>

> First post, new here. I've been trying to search the boards and messages

> and reading but I haven't come across anything similar to my situation yet.

>

> I'm pretty sure my mom has BPD or some form of it. But reading through I

> see a common thread of those describing their BPD individuals as overbearing

> and controlling.

>

> My mother is not a dominating personality. She appears quite the opposite.

> Her control is through playing the victim and emotional manipulation. She

> has all the symptoms of BPD to a T.

>

> She has been seeing a clinical psychologist for 7 years, right after she

> left my dad. She always made my dad look like a horrible person to us

> growing up and I hated him for how he treated my mother and subsequently,

> how he used such harsh punishments and disciplines on us. Ever since my mom

> left him and I have seen them apart, my opinion of our family dynamic has

> changed. My dad certainly has his issues, but I am starting to think my mom

> was the silent manipulator behind it all growing up. My dad was more the

> " overbearing controller " but my mom was operating the controls - make sense?

>

> Anyway, I will try to sum this up. I am not sure whether to believe my mom

> has a jacked up therapist or she is twisting the " advice " she is being given

> to us so her therapist looks like her protector. In either case, she blew up

> at my two brothers this holiday weekend over something so trivial. She took

> a casual joke, twisted the words, and blew up in a fit of anger and

> hysterical tears (happens frequently). She told them she called her

> therapist who advised her to force both of my bothers to leave her premises

> immediately because they were " violating her sanctuary of peace " . (One is

> military and visiting for holidays and the other is temporarily living with

> her to finish college). They of course came to my house to stay because they

> have no where else to go. (My mother knew full well where they would go). I

> called her the next day and told her she went over the line and she told me

> to butt out, none of my business.

>

> One week and multiple coachings from her therapist later, this has turned

> into a huge ordeal and my mom can't even recall why she got mad in the first

> place. And is wanting us to have a family session with her therapist, who I

> am pretty sure is very biased against us at this point.

>

> It amazes me how she goes from being loving, doting mother who is thrilled

> to have all her children back together to " get out of my house I hate your

> guts " in a matter of hours.

> All her friends and family have told her she was wrong for her actions but

> she is cutting everyone off and clinging to her therapist like a lifeline.

> You would think at this point in my life my mother would stop ceasing to

> amaze me but....just when I think she may be getting normal, crap like this

> happens.

>

> It seems like her therapist is pitting her against us...I don't understand.

> Aren't they supposed to foster restoration, communication in a family? Why

> encourage divisiveness? Sorry for the long post. Her therapist is female,

> FYI.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Welcome to the Group Labor of Love.

Although none of us here are psychologists and only a psychologist or

psychiatrist can give a real diagnosis, I would agree that the behaviors your

describe sound bpd-flavored: loving, doting mother one minute, screaming " I hate

you! Get out of my house! " the next minute. Misinterpreting a casual comment as

a personal attack (cognitive distortion, paranoid thinking), rapid mood swings,

and black-and-white thinking are all symptoms or traits of bpd.

In the book " Understanding The Borderline Mother " the author describes four

sub-categories of bpd; your mother sounds to me like she could be a combination

of " Waif " and " Queen " .

That's sad that your mother has been going to therapy for 7 years and is showing

no personal insight about her disorder and no improvement in regulating her

disordered behaviors. I'm willing to bet that her therapist is not trained in

dialectical behavioral therapy. Unfortunately few therapists are trained in

dbt, which is a newer therapy showing good results with those with bpd. Also

there are few psychologists who are even willing to accept patients with

personality disorder, because Axis II disorders (personality disorders and

mental retardation) have been classified as " untreatable " or unresponsive to

therapy, and therefor the cost of treatment is usually not covered by insurance.

Its a very sad and unfair situation.

Its hard to parse out if what your mother is telling you that her therapist says

is really true. It could be that your mother's therapist is a whack job, or it

could be that your mother is putting a distorted bpd " spin " on what her

therapist says to her.

In any case, you can't change or control either your mother or her therapist.

All you have the power to do is decide how you want to react to your mother's

disordered behaviors.

My suggestion is to start reading up on borderline pd and reading up about how

to set and maintain reasonable boundaries with a loved one with personality

disorder. There are many good books about bpd and about setting boundaries. A

boundary is for you; its your protective wall or line in the sand that you

decide it is not OK for the person with bpd to cross.

For example: if during a phone call your mother becomes hysterical and says

things about you that are untrue, you can say something like " I can hear that

you are upset now. We can't have a conversation together when you are upset, so

I'll call you back in a couple of days when you are feeling calmer. "

Other examples: " I won't stay and listen to you when you scream at me and call

me names. I'm hanging up / leaving now. Talk to you later. 'Bye. "

Things like that. The biggest hurdle is accepting that we have the right to

protect ourselves from abuse, even if its coming from our parent. As adults, we

have the right to simply walk away from emotional/verbal/mental abuse, the same

as we have the right to protect and defend ourselves from physical abuse.

Again, welcome to the Group. It does help to know you're not the only person

experiencing the bizarre, inappropriate, irrational behaviors of a parent with

bpd.

-Annie

>

> First post, new here. I've been trying to search the boards and messages and

reading but I haven't come across anything similar to my situation yet.

>

> I'm pretty sure my mom has BPD or some form of it. But reading through I see a

common thread of those describing their BPD individuals as overbearing and

controlling.

>

> My mother is not a dominating personality. She appears quite the opposite. Her

control is through playing the victim and emotional manipulation. She has all

the symptoms of BPD to a T.

>

> She has been seeing a clinical psychologist for 7 years, right after she left

my dad. She always made my dad look like a horrible person to us growing up and

I hated him for how he treated my mother and subsequently, how he used such

harsh punishments and disciplines on us. Ever since my mom left him and I have

seen them apart, my opinion of our family dynamic has changed. My dad certainly

has his issues, but I am starting to think my mom was the silent manipulator

behind it all growing up. My dad was more the " overbearing controller " but my

mom was operating the controls - make sense?

>

> Anyway, I will try to sum this up. I am not sure whether to believe my mom has

a jacked up therapist or she is twisting the " advice " she is being given to us

so her therapist looks like her protector. In either case, she blew up at my two

brothers this holiday weekend over something so trivial. She took a casual joke,

twisted the words, and blew up in a fit of anger and hysterical tears (happens

frequently). She told them she called her therapist who advised her to force

both of my bothers to leave her premises immediately because they were

" violating her sanctuary of peace " . (One is military and visiting for holidays

and the other is temporarily living with her to finish college). They of course

came to my house to stay because they have no where else to go. (My mother knew

full well where they would go). I called her the next day and told her she went

over the line and she told me to butt out, none of my business.

>

> One week and multiple coachings from her therapist later, this has turned into

a huge ordeal and my mom can't even recall why she got mad in the first place.

And is wanting us to have a family session with her therapist, who I am pretty

sure is very biased against us at this point.

>

> It amazes me how she goes from being loving, doting mother who is thrilled to

have all her children back together to " get out of my house I hate your guts " in

a matter of hours.

> All her friends and family have told her she was wrong for her actions but she

is cutting everyone off and clinging to her therapist like a lifeline. You would

think at this point in my life my mother would stop ceasing to amaze me

but....just when I think she may be getting normal, crap like this happens.

>

> It seems like her therapist is pitting her against us...I don't understand.

Aren't they supposed to foster restoration, communication in a family? Why

encourage divisiveness? Sorry for the long post. Her therapist is female, FYI.

>

[Guest guest]

Hello and welcome to the group.

The situation you describe definitely sounds very BPD-like.

Playing the victim and being emotionally manipulative is one of

the forms of control that our nadas use on us. ( " Nada " is what

we call our mothers who have BPD, short for " not a mother " in

how they act.) Waif-like behavior may be more subtle and hard

for outsiders to see, but it is most definitely just as harmful

as other methods of control.

I can see a couple possibilities where your nada and her

psychologist are concerned. One is that your nada is simply not

telling the truth about what the psychologist says. People with

BPD are very good at twisting the truth and seeing a different

reality than the rest of us see. I've heard my nada repeat some

conversations that I've been present for. What she repeats as

having been said can mean the opposite of what was originally

said to her. Her reality just doesn't accept the truth where

some things are concerned. Another possibility is that she's

totally pulled the wool over the pyschologist's eyes. People

with BPD tend to be good at fooling outsiders because they often

really believe their alternate versions of reality. If the

therapist doesn't have experience in dealing with cluster B

personality disorders, she may not be looking for the right

clues to properly diagnose her and see through her lies and

manipulation. It wouldn't surprise me if some combination of

both those possibilities were happening. Whatever is going on,

there isn't much you can do about it.

Personally, I wouldn't have anything to do with a family session

with the therapist unless you can have an opportunity to talk to

her without your nada first and find out what she hopes to

accomplish by having you there. If the therapist is totally

fooled and biased so that she see's only your nada's side of

things, things aren't likely to go well. If your nada is telling

lies about what the therapist says, I'm not sure what good a

group session would do because she probably properly listen to

what was said there either.

At 12:12 AM 12/04/2010 Labor of Love wrote:

>First post, new here. I've been trying to search the boards and

>messages and reading but I haven't come across anything similar

>to my situation yet.

>

>I'm pretty sure my mom has BPD or some form of it. But reading

>through I see a common thread of those describing their BPD

>individuals as overbearing and controlling.

>

>My mother is not a dominating personality. She appears quite

>the opposite. Her control is through playing the victim and

>emotional manipulation. She has all the symptoms of BPD to a T.

>

>She has been seeing a clinical psychologist for 7 years, right

>after she left my dad. She always made my dad look like a

>horrible person to us growing up and I hated him for how he

>treated my mother and subsequently, how he used such harsh

>punishments and disciplines on us. Ever since my mom left him

>and I have seen them apart, my opinion of our family dynamic

>has changed. My dad certainly has his issues, but I am starting

>to think my mom was the silent manipulator behind it all

>growing up. My dad was more the " overbearing controller " but my

>mom was operating the controls - make sense?

>

>Anyway, I will try to sum this up. I am not sure whether to

>believe my mom has a jacked up therapist or she is twisting the

> " advice " she is being given to us so her therapist looks like

>her protector. In either case, she blew up at my two brothers

>this holiday weekend over something so trivial. She took a

>casual joke, twisted the words, and blew up in a fit of anger

>and hysterical tears (happens frequently). She told them she

>called her therapist who advised her to force both of my

>bothers to leave her premises immediately because they were

> " violating her sanctuary of peace " . (One is military and

>visiting for holidays and the other is temporarily living with

>her to finish college). They of course came to my house to stay

>because they have no where else to go. (My mother knew full

>well where they would go). I called her the next day and told

>her she went over the line and she told me to butt out, none of

>my business.

>

>One week and multiple coachings from her therapist later, this

>has turned into a huge ordeal and my mom can't even recall why

>she got mad in the first place. And is wanting us to have a

>family session with her therapist, who I am pretty sure is very

>biased against us at this point.

>

>It amazes me how she goes from being loving, doting mother who

>is thrilled to have all her children back together to " get out

>of my house I hate your guts " in a matter of hours.

>All her friends and family have told her she was wrong for her

>actions but she is cutting everyone off and clinging to her

>therapist like a lifeline. You would think at this point in my

>life my mother would stop ceasing to amaze me but....just when

>I think she may be getting normal, crap like this happens.

>

>It seems like her therapist is pitting her against us...I don't

>understand. Aren't they supposed to foster restoration,

>communication in a family? Why encourage divisiveness? Sorry

>for the long post. Her therapist is female, FYI.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

I truly believe that your mother is twisting the words of her

therapist/psychiatrsit. Having experienced therapy first hand, I doubt a

therapist would give a person with BPD (especially someone whose made little

progess towards recognizing their actions) advice to pass on to their families.

Therapists tend to offer said advice when the family is together in a group

setting. I have had a similar experience to yours except it had to do with the

gifts my mother got for Christmas and it basically destroyed Christmas, which is

usually a lovely time (amazing or what?) at our house. I will say that

therapists can be a bit biased because they are only hearing one side of the

story and not everyone with BPD is delusional when it comes to seeing the reason

behind a particular " disagreement " (not always the case). Is it possible for you

to talk with her therapist about her actions toward others in the family?

Obviously, you couldn't discuss what she has said due to confidentiality, but

that doesn't mean you can't give this mental health professional a window into

what life is like for you. Just a suggestion, I wish you the best of luck.

>

> First post, new here. I've been trying to search the boards and messages and

reading but I haven't come across anything similar to my situation yet.

>

> I'm pretty sure my mom has BPD or some form of it. But reading through I see a

common thread of those describing their BPD individuals as overbearing and

controlling.

>

> My mother is not a dominating personality. She appears quite the opposite. Her

control is through playing the victim and emotional manipulation. She has all

the symptoms of BPD to a T.

>

> She has been seeing a clinical psychologist for 7 years, right after she left

my dad. She always made my dad look like a horrible person to us growing up and

I hated him for how he treated my mother and subsequently, how he used such

harsh punishments and disciplines on us. Ever since my mom left him and I have

seen them apart, my opinion of our family dynamic has changed. My dad certainly

has his issues, but I am starting to think my mom was the silent manipulator

behind it all growing up. My dad was more the " overbearing controller " but my

mom was operating the controls - make sense?

>

> Anyway, I will try to sum this up. I am not sure whether to believe my mom has

a jacked up therapist or she is twisting the " advice " she is being given to us

so her therapist looks like her protector. In either case, she blew up at my two

brothers this holiday weekend over something so trivial. She took a casual joke,

twisted the words, and blew up in a fit of anger and hysterical tears (happens

frequently). She told them she called her therapist who advised her to force

both of my bothers to leave her premises immediately because they were

" violating her sanctuary of peace " . (One is military and visiting for holidays

and the other is temporarily living with her to finish college). They of course

came to my house to stay because they have no where else to go. (My mother knew

full well where they would go). I called her the next day and told her she went

over the line and she told me to butt out, none of my business.

>

> One week and multiple coachings from her therapist later, this has turned into

a huge ordeal and my mom can't even recall why she got mad in the first place.

And is wanting us to have a family session with her therapist, who I am pretty

sure is very biased against us at this point.

>

> It amazes me how she goes from being loving, doting mother who is thrilled to

have all her children back together to " get out of my house I hate your guts " in

a matter of hours.

> All her friends and family have told her she was wrong for her actions but she

is cutting everyone off and clinging to her therapist like a lifeline. You would

think at this point in my life my mother would stop ceasing to amaze me

but....just when I think she may be getting normal, crap like this happens.

>

> It seems like her therapist is pitting her against us...I don't understand.

Aren't they supposed to foster restoration, communication in a family? Why

encourage divisiveness? Sorry for the long post. Her therapist is female, FYI.

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you so much for all of your insights. This is very helpful.

I responded to an email mom sent to me and tried to confront her behaviors this

last week. She printed it and took it to her therapist as well as all text

messages between us. Everything out of her mouth for the last week has been

obviously coached. I think she must be calling this lady every day to ask what

to say next.

Just today, she seemed fine with my brother and then started asking him personal

questions about his sex life and demanded an answer, then made a horrible,

inappropriate comment in regards to his girlfriend. He was enraged of course and

once he got angry, with a very " therapist " type voice she said " You sound angry

now " . I told my brother that she was trying to make him angry or she wouldn't

have said all those things. Its her way of controlling his emotions.

This problem of my mom's, if indeed BPD, has greatly exacerbated itself since

her divorce 7 years ago. There are moments I swear she is one outrage from

committal. Then the next minute, she is a normal functioning human being. (But

the " normal " mom never last long.)

I think whoever said she is between " Waif " and " queen " is dead on. I've got to

get this book.

I also appreciate the advice to see her therapist by myself first before we do a

family session but I'm not sure the therapist will agree to see me. I can always

ask. Telling her I want to know what her goals are for the family session is a

good suggestion. This therapist is supposed to specialize in women's trauma and

women from abusive marriages. You would think a professor and someone with that

much experience would see right through a BPD but you never know. My mom refuses

to change therapists. But thank you for the reminder to set boundaries in how

she can affect me. My brother wanted to force her to choose between us and the

therapist but that won't work - she'll choose the therapist, which is hurtful

and sad. I don't even want to go there. She is what she is.

And the session was supposed to be a " mediated " session where we could talk

things out with her therapist as a mediator. I'm not sure it was a group

therapy. And I really have no idea what to expect from that. Can anyone give me

a clue?

(Sorry my name shows up at Labor of Love - that is my business name and I didn't

set it that way) :-(

Thanks,

FN

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 1:57:30 PM

Subject: Re: BPD mother and her therapist

Hello and welcome to the group.

The situation you describe definitely sounds very BPD-like.

Playing the victim and being emotionally manipulative is one of

the forms of control that our nadas use on us. ( " Nada " is what

we call our mothers who have BPD, short for " not a mother " in

how they act.) Waif-like behavior may be more subtle and hard

for outsiders to see, but it is most definitely just as harmful

as other methods of control.

I can see a couple possibilities where your nada and her

psychologist are concerned. One is that your nada is simply not

telling the truth about what the psychologist says. People with

BPD are very good at twisting the truth and seeing a different

reality than the rest of us see. I've heard my nada repeat some

conversations that I've been present for. What she repeats as

having been said can mean the opposite of what was originally

said to her. Her reality just doesn't accept the truth where

some things are concerned. Another possibility is that she's

totally pulled the wool over the pyschologist's eyes. People

with BPD tend to be good at fooling outsiders because they often

really believe their alternate versions of reality. If the

therapist doesn't have experience in dealing with cluster B

personality disorders, she may not be looking for the right

clues to properly diagnose her and see through her lies and

manipulation. It wouldn't surprise me if some combination of

both those possibilities were happening. Whatever is going on,

there isn't much you can do about it.

Personally, I wouldn't have anything to do with a family session

with the therapist unless you can have an opportunity to talk to

her without your nada first and find out what she hopes to

accomplish by having you there. If the therapist is totally

fooled and biased so that she see's only your nada's side of

things, things aren't likely to go well. If your nada is telling

lies about what the therapist says, I'm not sure what good a

group session would do because she probably properly listen to

what was said there either.

At 12:12 AM 12/04/2010 Labor of Love wrote:

>First post, new here. I've been trying to search the boards and

>messages and reading but I haven't come across anything similar

>to my situation yet.

>

>I'm pretty sure my mom has BPD or some form of it. But reading

>through I see a common thread of those describing their BPD

>individuals as overbearing and controlling.

>

>My mother is not a dominating personality. She appears quite

>the opposite. Her control is through playing the victim and

>emotional manipulation. She has all the symptoms of BPD to a T.

>

>She has been seeing a clinical psychologist for 7 years, right

>after she left my dad. She always made my dad look like a

>horrible person to us growing up and I hated him for how he

>treated my mother and subsequently, how he used such harsh

>punishments and disciplines on us. Ever since my mom left him

>and I have seen them apart, my opinion of our family dynamic

>has changed. My dad certainly has his issues, but I am starting

>to think my mom was the silent manipulator behind it all

>growing up. My dad was more the " overbearing controller " but my

>mom was operating the controls - make sense?

>

>Anyway, I will try to sum this up. I am not sure whether to

>believe my mom has a jacked up therapist or she is twisting the

> " advice " she is being given to us so her therapist looks like

>her protector. In either case, she blew up at my two brothers

>this holiday weekend over something so trivial. She took a

>casual joke, twisted the words, and blew up in a fit of anger

>and hysterical tears (happens frequently). She told them she

>called her therapist who advised her to force both of my

>bothers to leave her premises immediately because they were

> " violating her sanctuary of peace " . (One is military and

>visiting for holidays and the other is temporarily living with

>her to finish college). They of course came to my house to stay

>because they have no where else to go. (My mother knew full

>well where they would go). I called her the next day and told

>her she went over the line and she told me to butt out, none of

>my business.

>

>One week and multiple coachings from her therapist later, this

>has turned into a huge ordeal and my mom can't even recall why

>she got mad in the first place. And is wanting us to have a

>family session with her therapist, who I am pretty sure is very

>biased against us at this point.

>

>It amazes me how she goes from being loving, doting mother who

>is thrilled to have all her children back together to " get out

>of my house I hate your guts " in a matter of hours.

>All her friends and family have told her she was wrong for her

>actions but she is cutting everyone off and clinging to her

>therapist like a lifeline. You would think at this point in my

>life my mother would stop ceasing to amaze me but....just when

>I think she may be getting normal, crap like this happens.

>

>It seems like her therapist is pitting her against us...I don't

>understand. Aren't they supposed to foster restoration,

>communication in a family? Why encourage divisiveness? Sorry

>for the long post. Her therapist is female, FYI.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

I swear, there must be some master BPD radio tower out there that signals them

all to flip out every holiday! It doesn't matter how long they've been behaving

well, a Thanksgiving or a Christmas to a nada is like a full moon to a werewolf.

I agree with the other replies so far, and I think you are right when you say

" her control is through playing the victim. "

Waifs tend to be more passive-aggressive. They cry and act pitiful because it

gets them what they want--attention, for one thing, and their own way, for

another. I don't think they're usually conscious that they're manipulating when

they throw a pity-fit, but it's one of the most basic ways humans have to get

what they want. Crying is often paired with more slightly more overt attacks on

the other person's character: " You're so mean, " " I feel like a failure for

raising such a horrible daughter, " " After all I've sacrificed for you, how could

you be so ungrateful, " etc., etc.

I think it is always a bad idea for someone to go to therapy with his abuser.

Even if the therapist is unbiased and can see clearly what is going on--and it

sounds like you have good reason to question whether your mother's fits that

description--it is a much better plan for each party to enter into therapy

separately.

I have been telling my parents for a while that I do not trust them, and that I

do not see any possible way for them to learn to effectively change their

behavior enough for me to begin to trust them until they seek treatment. My

father wanted me to agree to go to counseling with them (they live 500 miles

away...just how exactly would that work, Dad?). I said I would not be willing

to do that, but I would be happy to speak to the counselor they choose once or

twice in order to give her my point of view.

I have been thinking about preparing a brief statement describing my perceptions

of my mother, using the BPD diagnostic criteria as an outline. That way, I

don't make the diagnosis for the therapist, but she can see examples of the

behaviors and draw the conclusion herself. I considered that it might be the

" fix-it flea " that makes me want to do this, because my mother--well, both of my

parents--are very, very good at acting normal in public, and I know they already

got one counselor, whom they saw together for a grand total of about a month, to

tell them my mother definitely doesn't have BPD (at least that's what mom told

sister). But even if I never have the opportunity to share it, it would still

be a handy little validation for me to have on hand for those times when I need

to remember what she's like.

kt

[Guest guest]

Hi FLN,

I think that is wise to always have a witness present when you have an in-person

visit with your nada (shorthand for " not a mom " = bpd mom). It really does help

to have a third party there who can verify what was said and by whom and what

actually transpired.

My bpd/npd nada always behaves better when other people are around.

And, my mother has shown me clearly and repeatedly on several occasions that she

is willing to blame others, to falsely accuse others of hurting her, neglecting

her or mistreating her when no such abuse occurred. I can't trust my own

mother, is what it boils down to.

Its just smart to protect yourself from false accusations of elder abuse or

whatever. Having a witness right there will prevent anything of the kind from

happening. That is my plan as well. I will never again be alone with my mother,

it's just not safe for me.

-Annie

>

> Thank you! Every time I pray about and think about going to her therapist as a

> " group " I am getting major " DON'T DO IT " signals from my gut.

>

>

> Great suggestion about agreeing to meet her alone, IF the therapist will agree

> to that. And I love the idea of making an outline of my perceptions of my mom

> for the therapist based on the BPD symptoms. Like handing her completed

> homework, if she chooses to use it. Seems like a good idea to me.

>

>

> My mom acts up every holiday now that you mention it. I can't remember the

last

> holiday season we had without one of her " outbursts " and sulky behavior.

>

> Once I realized she was taunting me to respond to her so she could take my

> emails/texts to her therapist, I told her I could no longer communicate with

her

> in writing in any way. She has to call from now on. She hasn't spoken to me in

> almost a full week but tried to say she was coming over the other night while

my

> husband was working late. He told her she was not going to be here unless he

was

> present. She's a lot less ugly to me when my husband is around for some

reason.

>

>

> FLN

[Guest guest]

Like you, I chose to not " get into it " with my nada, also. All I said to her

was that I needed a " time out " for healing and recovery. I have never

confronted her or spoke the unvarnished truth: " Being around you makes me

*physically ill* and *emotionally ill* and I need to be away from you in order

to recover and heal. "

Instead, I just said to her, " I need a time out. "

I hope you can find a way to just separate in some way and not expose yourself

to further abuse and damage. It is possible to separate without being hostile

or hateful, its just that healing sometimes truly needs separation, distance,

and time away from " nada " in order to take place.

At least, that's the method I am trying.

Each of us must find his or her own individual path to healing, though. Its a

very individual choice, figuring out what works for *you.* Its OK to figure

out what works for you. Truly.

There is no " right " or " wrong " about it at all. And no judgment, here.

-Annie

>

> So Another question I thought about:

>

> My mom wants to have a confrontation, of sorts, a " discussion " about the email

I

> sent her confronting her inappropriate behaviors. I can tell she has been

> coached by her therapist.

>

> Is this a wise idea? I never feel like in the past these sorts of

confrontations

> have amounted to anything but chasing rabbit trails that aren't the issue and

> talking in circles. She shuts me out until I discuss what she wants me to

> discuss with her. As soon as she is allowed to say her piece and tell me how

> screwed up I am and how I need " professional help because your father caused

so

> much havoc in our family " , then she goes back to being normal......until the

> next blow up.

>

> Can anyone share from experience how they have diffused this? I first said I

> would not speak to her without a mediator but in truth, I really don't want to

> talk to her about this stuff at all.

[Guest guest]

Something else to keep in mind - there are a lot of people out there that claim

to be " therapists " . Is the one she is seeing a proper one? Accredited and

qualified? A psychologist who knows how to diagnose correctly? Here is Aus, any

monkey can call themselves a " therapist " without any qualifications to speak of.

IF your mother isnt lying about her therapists behaviour and advice (plus the

fact that your mother has stuck with her for so long) then the therapist is a

blind freddy and wouldnt know BPD if your mother smacked her in the chops. Then

a family session is going to be pretty useless.

Its up to you. Either way, I would doubt your mother is going to change despite

all the therapy in the world - she isnt doing it to improve her behaviour, she

is doing it to have someone to take your fathers place as emotional sinkwell.

>

> I truly believe that your mother is twisting the words of her

therapist/psychiatrsit. Having experienced therapy first hand, I doubt a

therapist would give a person with BPD (especially someone whose made little

progess towards recognizing their actions) advice to pass on to their families.

Therapists tend to offer said advice when the family is together in a group

setting. I have had a similar experience to yours except it had to do with the

gifts my mother got for Christmas and it basically destroyed Christmas, which is

usually a lovely time (amazing or what?) at our house. I will say that

therapists can be a bit biased because they are only hearing one side of the

story and not everyone with BPD is delusional when it comes to seeing the reason

behind a particular " disagreement " (not always the case). Is it possible for you

to talk with her therapist about her actions toward others in the family?

Obviously, you couldn't discuss what she has said due to confidentiality, but

that doesn't mean you can't give this mental health professional a window into

what life is like for you. Just a suggestion, I wish you the best of luck.

[Guest guest]

Something else to keep in mind - there are a lot of people out there that claim

to be " therapists " . Is the one she is seeing a proper one? Accredited and

qualified? A psychologist who knows how to diagnose correctly? Here is Aus, any

monkey can call themselves a " therapist " without any qualifications to speak of.

IF your mother isnt lying about her therapists behaviour and advice (plus the

fact that your mother has stuck with her for so long) then the therapist is a

blind freddy and wouldnt know BPD if your mother smacked her in the chops. Then

a family session is going to be pretty useless.

Its up to you. Either way, I would doubt your mother is going to change despite

all the therapy in the world - she isnt doing it to improve her behaviour, she

is doing it to have someone to take your fathers place as emotional sinkwell.

>

> I truly believe that your mother is twisting the words of her

therapist/psychiatrsit. Having experienced therapy first hand, I doubt a

therapist would give a person with BPD (especially someone whose made little

progess towards recognizing their actions) advice to pass on to their families.

Therapists tend to offer said advice when the family is together in a group

setting. I have had a similar experience to yours except it had to do with the

gifts my mother got for Christmas and it basically destroyed Christmas, which is

usually a lovely time (amazing or what?) at our house. I will say that

therapists can be a bit biased because they are only hearing one side of the

story and not everyone with BPD is delusional when it comes to seeing the reason

behind a particular " disagreement " (not always the case). Is it possible for you

to talk with her therapist about her actions toward others in the family?

Obviously, you couldn't discuss what she has said due to confidentiality, but

that doesn't mean you can't give this mental health professional a window into

what life is like for you. Just a suggestion, I wish you the best of luck.

[Guest guest]

Something else to keep in mind - there are a lot of people out there that claim

to be " therapists " . Is the one she is seeing a proper one? Accredited and

qualified? A psychologist who knows how to diagnose correctly? Here is Aus, any

monkey can call themselves a " therapist " without any qualifications to speak of.

IF your mother isnt lying about her therapists behaviour and advice (plus the

fact that your mother has stuck with her for so long) then the therapist is a

blind freddy and wouldnt know BPD if your mother smacked her in the chops. Then

a family session is going to be pretty useless.

Its up to you. Either way, I would doubt your mother is going to change despite

all the therapy in the world - she isnt doing it to improve her behaviour, she

is doing it to have someone to take your fathers place as emotional sinkwell.

>

> I truly believe that your mother is twisting the words of her

therapist/psychiatrsit. Having experienced therapy first hand, I doubt a

therapist would give a person with BPD (especially someone whose made little

progess towards recognizing their actions) advice to pass on to their families.

Therapists tend to offer said advice when the family is together in a group

setting. I have had a similar experience to yours except it had to do with the

gifts my mother got for Christmas and it basically destroyed Christmas, which is

usually a lovely time (amazing or what?) at our house. I will say that

therapists can be a bit biased because they are only hearing one side of the

story and not everyone with BPD is delusional when it comes to seeing the reason

behind a particular " disagreement " (not always the case). Is it possible for you

to talk with her therapist about her actions toward others in the family?

Obviously, you couldn't discuss what she has said due to confidentiality, but

that doesn't mean you can't give this mental health professional a window into

what life is like for you. Just a suggestion, I wish you the best of luck.

[Guest guest]

I never feel like in the past these sorts of confrontations

> have amounted to anything but chasing rabbit trails that aren't the issue and

> talking in circles. She shuts me out until I discuss what she wants me to

> discuss with her. As soon as she is allowed to say her piece and tell me how

> screwed up I am and how I need " professional help because your father caused

so

> much havoc in our family " , then she goes back to being normal......until the

> next blow up.

>

You already have experience with your mother's way of " solving " a problem. You

seem to be feeling unheard and misunderstood...and understandably so!

Discussions with my foo are exactly the same. They are so desperately clinging

to their denial that they just can't understand a single word that comes out of

my mouth.

> Can anyone share from experience how they have diffused this? I first said I

> would not speak to her without a mediator but in truth, I really don't want to

> talk to her about this stuff at all.

>

>

Back when I thought we just had a rocky relationship, I swore I would never have

another " discussion " with my mother without a mediator, too. In college, I

begged my mom to let us all go to family counseling together. I was so

depressed and anxious, and frustrated at never being heard, and I felt like if

there was some neutral 3rd party, maybe my mom would finally care enough to

listen. Eventually, she consented, and got out the phone book to look for

someone. I felt so relieved--until a couple of hours went by, and she said she

had changed her mind. We didn't need family counseling, but if I was having a

problem I could go see the school counselor by myself. According to her, we

just couldn't take the chance of being seen going into a counselor together

because my father held an elected position, and if someone saw us he might lose

an election if he had to run again. Her bullshit way of saying, " Screw you, I

don't care how depressed you are, I'd much rather watch you go crazy than have

someone try to fix ME. "

Anyway, I guess I tell that story just to say how much it would have meant to me

at one time to have the opportunity to go to family counseling. But the time

for that is long gone. Family counseling is for people who need help learning

to communicate with each other, and who really want to work together to make a

relationship happy. My parents don't want to do jack shit. They want the

responsibility for change in the relationship to all fall on me. They want me

to " forgive " all the little individual things that I'm still " angry " about and

to go back to pretending that nothing's wrong. And I'm just not willing to do

that. I can love them better from way over here, where I don't talk to them

about my life or my hopes or my needs. They are not safe people. I do not

trust them.

I have learned to set boundaries and limit contact. I have confronted them on

several occasions about mom's abusive behavior and problems regulating her

emotions, and about dad's constant defense of her. It all falls on deaf ears.

They don't want to hear me.

I think you already know what to expect from a group session with your mom.

Trust your instincts here.

KT

[Guest guest]

I never feel like in the past these sorts of confrontations

> have amounted to anything but chasing rabbit trails that aren't the issue and

> talking in circles. She shuts me out until I discuss what she wants me to

> discuss with her. As soon as she is allowed to say her piece and tell me how

> screwed up I am and how I need " professional help because your father caused

so

> much havoc in our family " , then she goes back to being normal......until the

> next blow up.

>

You already have experience with your mother's way of " solving " a problem. You

seem to be feeling unheard and misunderstood...and understandably so!

Discussions with my foo are exactly the same. They are so desperately clinging

to their denial that they just can't understand a single word that comes out of

my mouth.

> Can anyone share from experience how they have diffused this? I first said I

> would not speak to her without a mediator but in truth, I really don't want to

> talk to her about this stuff at all.

>

>

Back when I thought we just had a rocky relationship, I swore I would never have

another " discussion " with my mother without a mediator, too. In college, I

begged my mom to let us all go to family counseling together. I was so

depressed and anxious, and frustrated at never being heard, and I felt like if

there was some neutral 3rd party, maybe my mom would finally care enough to

listen. Eventually, she consented, and got out the phone book to look for

someone. I felt so relieved--until a couple of hours went by, and she said she

had changed her mind. We didn't need family counseling, but if I was having a

problem I could go see the school counselor by myself. According to her, we

just couldn't take the chance of being seen going into a counselor together

because my father held an elected position, and if someone saw us he might lose

an election if he had to run again. Her bullshit way of saying, " Screw you, I

don't care how depressed you are, I'd much rather watch you go crazy than have

someone try to fix ME. "

Anyway, I guess I tell that story just to say how much it would have meant to me

at one time to have the opportunity to go to family counseling. But the time

for that is long gone. Family counseling is for people who need help learning

to communicate with each other, and who really want to work together to make a

relationship happy. My parents don't want to do jack shit. They want the

responsibility for change in the relationship to all fall on me. They want me

to " forgive " all the little individual things that I'm still " angry " about and

to go back to pretending that nothing's wrong. And I'm just not willing to do

that. I can love them better from way over here, where I don't talk to them

about my life or my hopes or my needs. They are not safe people. I do not

trust them.

I have learned to set boundaries and limit contact. I have confronted them on

several occasions about mom's abusive behavior and problems regulating her

emotions, and about dad's constant defense of her. It all falls on deaf ears.

They don't want to hear me.

I think you already know what to expect from a group session with your mom.

Trust your instincts here.

KT

[Guest guest]

I was recently in a similar situation where I was asked to go to the

therapist with my waif/hermit (?) BPD mom. I have wanted her to seek help for

SO LONG now it was a huge shock that she was going at all. It didn't come

without *huge* drama, but still. Anyway I said I would definitely go,

but then I immediately had a near panic attack, I blanked out, and I

wondered what I could possibly say in person with my mom sitting there that

would

make sense of anything at all in our relationship. I did however manage

to talk to the therapist on the phone ahead of time, and it was incredible.

She spent almost an hour talking to me and was so validating - she really

seemed to " get " what I was trying to say and had real solutions for how to

proceed when we met in person. She seemed to totally understand that I was

working through things that I didn't really want to get into in person -

you all know it's often pointless to discuss the details with a BPD without

getting into the denial, hurt, crying, surprise, total lack of memory, and

of course - blame and victim mentality. Instead the therapist helped me to

explain to my mom that I am overwhelmed with worrying about my mom for

almost 40 years and feeling the need to help/save/rescue/parent her, and that

the distance she is currently perceiving is just me working on not being as

involved in the outcome of her decisions.

The actual meeting between the 3 of us was painful, intense, gut

wrenching... despite my best efforts it did still fall into he said/she said

type

arguments, but the therapist was a wonderful mediator and kept bringing the

matters around to the salient points. She managed, I believe, to not make

my mother feel abandoned by her, which I know she greatly needed. At one

point she assured her she was HER therapist...very important I think! In

the end, despite the painfulness of the meeting, I do think it was a good

thing that we went together. I think the therapist is awesome, and I think in

our case this is a workable solution. I am going through my memory banks

-- remembering, analyzing, and on some level working to accept. I am

moving through roughly the anger/depression phase of grieving some idea of a

mother that I know I will not have. The bargaining and denial are now past,

yeah!! I don't see a point in trying to explain or go through any of that

with my mother - I think it would just be painful for all involved and not

productive at all. Instead I'm working through it with some therapy, some

books, this group, my husband, and trying to be really aware and present.

Now in your case, who knows really -- the fact that your mom has been

seeing that therapist for so *long* with you not perceiving any positive change

at all (and in fact worsening?) is a fear I definitely had as well. I do

think its possible the therapist just has a LOT of ground to cover and your

mother can be manipulating what they are hearing as well as what she

'repeats' to you. I think it would be really good to at least talk to the

therapist on the phone, you might get some insights into how valuable - or not

- a meeting in person would be. I definitely wish you luck! This. is.

so. hard!!!!

Star

[Guest guest]

Ohh yes, I totally understand ... their behavior just crosses boundaries,

pushes the limits - and then you're (justifiably) mad, and don't even want

to try to make things better, because we are always the ones that need to

just suck it up and smooth it out, pretend it didn't happen, whatever. We

are always hurt by it, yet somehow THEIR hurt trumps all. Somehow things

slide back to where they were.

I only recently learned about BPD at all myself, and found this board, got

the book Stop Walking on Eggshells and also the Borderline Mother book...

it was definitely an awakening, coming out of the FOG -- or even just being

aware that there was such a thing as FOG! (fear, obligation, guilt) I've

gone my whole life thinking there was an unusual amount of drama, poor

decisions, confusing reactions and incongruent behaviors, knowing that other

mothers didn't behave like mine did... but had no idea there was an actual

diagnosis or name for this. It was such an incredible relief to know it was

not normal, and I was not crazy!

I was once told by an older cousin that I hardly knew, at a family event,

that I was " remarkably well adjusted " . I was only about 18 at the time,

and I remember being taken back by that comment. It was literally the first

time I remember that anyone had even hinted to me personally that things

were not right with my situation. Since I've been going through this recent

learning, processing, healing mode, I've been in a lot of communication

with my mom's 2 sisters. BPD mom is the middle sister... (anyone notice any

trend to that?) Both of my aunts have been wonderfully supportive of me

as I go through this. They both have finally started to come out of the FOG

themselves, and even though I am leading this charge and taking the brunt

of the grieving what has never been, they are recognizing, naming,

admitting, and discussing years of this same old crap with her. They have both

mothered me in many ways and I usually cry when they do because it's so

touching and foreign. One recently apologized to me, saying she wished she had

been there for me growing up -- that she had recognized and understood

better the full situation I grew up with as an only child of a single BPD mom.

I understand - she had her own husband, little kids, new state, etc. -- her

own life! -- to live and handle. But it's nice to hear, anyway, and all

of this ultimately I think leads to healing if we're open to it.

But did I mention... this. is. so. hard!!!!!!!!!

Unloading a little myself - thanks for listening!!

Star

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

> I think its totally possible to have BPD and not be the type that cut yourself

> and wrote messages with blood.

Yes--I quite agree! It is a huge problem that clinicians are trained to think

that only people who threaten suicide or self-injure by cutting or stalk their

therapists can qualify for a BPD diagnosis. There are plenty of other

higher-functioning people out there who meet enough criteria that just fly under

the radar...my mom is one of those, too.

[Guest guest]

I agree; an individual only needs to display 5 of the 9 criteria to be diagnosed

with bpd. My nada never cut herself, ever, and she has only threatened suicide

once that Sister and I know of, and that was made relatively recently.

My nada displays these bpd traits:

abandonment issues, unstable personal relations (black and white thinking),

affective instability (rapid mood swings), inappropriate, intense anger, chronic

feelings of emptiness, and the occasional transient psychotic breaks with

reality.

But she also displays narcissistic traits, and obsessive-compulsive pd traits

(the uber-controlling behaviors and the perfectionism).

-Annie

> I think its totally possible to have BPD and not be the type that cut yourself

> and wrote messages with blood. I'm almost certain my mom is some form of it

and

> she is not quite to that extent. She has done some pretty crazy and

manipulative

> stuff but hasn't gone that far yet.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

>

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Sent: Tue, December 7, 2010 8:10:15 AM

> Subject: Re: Re: BPD mother and her therapist

>

>

> i would think the final straw would have been the blood on the windshield.

> scary

>

> Re: Re: BPD mother and her therapist

>

> I don't think my therapist could ever have the wool pulled over her eyes by a

> BPD. She did tell me too that she usually refers BPD's to people who

specialize

> in it because they are so demanding and unpredictable. She told me about a

BPD

> patient she had years ago that would get mad at her and threaten suicide and

> even would cut herself and then email the pictures to her. She also wrote her

> name in blood on my therapist's car windshield in the parking lot once. The

> final straw was when this client actually got my therapist's email password

and

> was hacking into her email. Unbelievable. She said it was likely she had

written

> the password on something and the client just happened to see it. She told me

> this woman was 40 years old too! and had kids!

>

> I used to really worry that *I* had BPD too since I have such abandonment

issues

> and my therapist told me this story to explain to me why I didn't have

it...that

> these are the crazy-making things BPD's do.

>

>

>