INTRO

[Guest guest]

This is a very interesting article (see attachment) that was in the paper a few

months ago.

I needed to read it because I am all about the honor and respect...and I was

feeling very guilty and confused about it.

This is very necessary for people with abusive parents.

Amy

Re: INTRO

Hello Lynn,

I am new here myself. While I don't have grown children, I can relate to feeling

alone and that no one understands.

What a horrible thing to feel that you have to sacrifice Christmas with your

children because of all that. Is it possible to invite your children to your

house for a celebration of your own without your nada?

I am very cautious who I speak with about my mom. I have only recently realized

my mom may have a clinical diagnosis. I am a Christian and hear often " You must

honor your parents " and feel frustrated that I'm supposed to lay myself on the

proverbial altar while she continues to hurt with her words and actions. I am

fortunate to have 2 friends who also have mothers with mental disorders and they

have always given me a sympathetic, non-judgmental ear.

Someone recently suggested that NAMI has support groups for family members of

personality disorders....maybe you could see if there is one in your area. Maybe

if you met some people with similar situations it would help you not to feel so

alone and judged by others.

((((HUGS))))

>

> Hello,

> I'm looking for support from others who've experienced the lifelong pain of a

rejecting/blaming mother. I've been consigned to the " scapegoat " role in my

FOO, off and on for decades (am now 47).

>

> My Mother appears to be be primarily the QUEEN BPD type with strong WITCH

tendencies.

>

> I was in this group a few yrs. back when I first realized this and was in

shock about it (came out of denial?), and worked hard on my own recovery, esp.

setting boundaries, which did not work (backfired). I've put my recovery on the

backburner for survival reasons, basicaly, but am really needing support and

understanding now, again. I feel so alone, and like not one person in the world

truly understands what the hell is going on. On top of my own painful feelings,

others do not get it. They unintentionally make me feel worse, often, by

offering advice that somehow makes me feel judged, blamed, or like I'm supposed

to feel guilty (for not loving her unconditionallY). Does anyone identify

w/this?

>

> Things are much more complicated than they were 4-5 yrs.ago, my whole life has

changed. So much loss, so much grief, so much rejection. I don't even know how

I've survived to this point, honestly.

>

> Lately I've been waking up crying each morning, with this pain in my heart.

Still, I just try to be strong and be good, for my kids' sake. I often feel

completely powerless.

>

> Right now my MO has painted me black, and she has pulled my teenage daughter

in to her BPD drama. Dd is 17, living on her own w/bf 150 miles from home for

first time (last 3 months), and is completely enmeshed with my Mom (her

grandma). Dd has very strong BPD traits, and I fear dread this. I'm having

great difficulty dealing with the dramatic interactions between my Mom and my

dd, and how they try to suck me in (I'm usually pretty good w/my DAU, but not

w/my MOM, so I stay away as much as possible).

>

> I'm afraid to go to Christmas (at mom's house), and it looks like the

healthiest thing for me to do at this point is just stay home alone, while she

gets to have christmas w/my kids.

>

> She just sucks the life from me. It is SOOOOOO painful. Things were not this

bad, until after my Stepdad (mom's husband) passed away 4 years ago. And,

things got REAL BAD with my Mom REAL FAST, after that, in fact he wasn't even

gone an hour, and she turned her blaming hatred on me (at first I thought she

was in shock, his body was still in the living room), but not! It's gotten

worse and worse. I truly believe she wishes I were dead and gone from her.

>

> Lynn

>

[Guest guest]

This is a very interesting article (see attachment) that was in the paper a few

months ago.

I needed to read it because I am all about the honor and respect...and I was

feeling very guilty and confused about it.

This is very necessary for people with abusive parents.

Amy

Re: INTRO

Hello Lynn,

I am new here myself. While I don't have grown children, I can relate to feeling

alone and that no one understands.

What a horrible thing to feel that you have to sacrifice Christmas with your

children because of all that. Is it possible to invite your children to your

house for a celebration of your own without your nada?

I am very cautious who I speak with about my mom. I have only recently realized

my mom may have a clinical diagnosis. I am a Christian and hear often " You must

honor your parents " and feel frustrated that I'm supposed to lay myself on the

proverbial altar while she continues to hurt with her words and actions. I am

fortunate to have 2 friends who also have mothers with mental disorders and they

have always given me a sympathetic, non-judgmental ear.

Someone recently suggested that NAMI has support groups for family members of

personality disorders....maybe you could see if there is one in your area. Maybe

if you met some people with similar situations it would help you not to feel so

alone and judged by others.

((((HUGS))))

>

> Hello,

> I'm looking for support from others who've experienced the lifelong pain of a

rejecting/blaming mother. I've been consigned to the " scapegoat " role in my

FOO, off and on for decades (am now 47).

>

> My Mother appears to be be primarily the QUEEN BPD type with strong WITCH

tendencies.

>

> I was in this group a few yrs. back when I first realized this and was in

shock about it (came out of denial?), and worked hard on my own recovery, esp.

setting boundaries, which did not work (backfired). I've put my recovery on the

backburner for survival reasons, basicaly, but am really needing support and

understanding now, again. I feel so alone, and like not one person in the world

truly understands what the hell is going on. On top of my own painful feelings,

others do not get it. They unintentionally make me feel worse, often, by

offering advice that somehow makes me feel judged, blamed, or like I'm supposed

to feel guilty (for not loving her unconditionallY). Does anyone identify

w/this?

>

> Things are much more complicated than they were 4-5 yrs.ago, my whole life has

changed. So much loss, so much grief, so much rejection. I don't even know how

I've survived to this point, honestly.

>

> Lately I've been waking up crying each morning, with this pain in my heart.

Still, I just try to be strong and be good, for my kids' sake. I often feel

completely powerless.

>

> Right now my MO has painted me black, and she has pulled my teenage daughter

in to her BPD drama. Dd is 17, living on her own w/bf 150 miles from home for

first time (last 3 months), and is completely enmeshed with my Mom (her

grandma). Dd has very strong BPD traits, and I fear dread this. I'm having

great difficulty dealing with the dramatic interactions between my Mom and my

dd, and how they try to suck me in (I'm usually pretty good w/my DAU, but not

w/my MOM, so I stay away as much as possible).

>

> I'm afraid to go to Christmas (at mom's house), and it looks like the

healthiest thing for me to do at this point is just stay home alone, while she

gets to have christmas w/my kids.

>

> She just sucks the life from me. It is SOOOOOO painful. Things were not this

bad, until after my Stepdad (mom's husband) passed away 4 years ago. And,

things got REAL BAD with my Mom REAL FAST, after that, in fact he wasn't even

gone an hour, and she turned her blaming hatred on me (at first I thought she

was in shock, his body was still in the living room), but not! It's gotten

worse and worse. I truly believe she wishes I were dead and gone from her.

>

> Lynn

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Lynn,

Your story is my worst fear.

My mother has already done her best to ruin my life, kill me with neglect or

encourage me to kill myself. My worst fear is that she will somehow manage to

continue the poison with my children. I hate to think of the damage she has

done before I went LC and only allowed supervised visiting.

Hurting my kids is the hardest part now; but especially in the way you outline.

Where she is the good guy and I am the bad guy. With them. And can't even help

them.

I feel deeply for you. I think the best thing to do now is what an estranged

parent does in a divorce situation - stay steady and loving and wait. (It took

10 years for my husband's daughter to talk to him again, but his patience and

kindness paid off; for him and for her.)

+Coal Miner's Daughter

>>

> Lately I've been waking up crying each morning, with this pain in my heart.

Still, I just try to be strong and be good, for my kids' sake. I often feel

completely powerless.

>

> Right now my MO has painted me black, and she has pulled my teenage daughter

in to her BPD drama. Dd is 17, living on her own w/bf 150 miles from home for

first time (last 3 months), and is completely enmeshed with my Mom (her

grandma). Dd has very strong BPD traits, and I fear dread this. I'm having

great difficulty dealing with the dramatic interactions between my Mom and my

dd, and how they try to suck me in (I'm usually pretty good w/my DAU, but not

w/my MOM, so I stay away as much as possible).

>>

> Lynn

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Lynn,

Your story is my worst fear.

My mother has already done her best to ruin my life, kill me with neglect or

encourage me to kill myself. My worst fear is that she will somehow manage to

continue the poison with my children. I hate to think of the damage she has

done before I went LC and only allowed supervised visiting.

Hurting my kids is the hardest part now; but especially in the way you outline.

Where she is the good guy and I am the bad guy. With them. And can't even help

them.

I feel deeply for you. I think the best thing to do now is what an estranged

parent does in a divorce situation - stay steady and loving and wait. (It took

10 years for my husband's daughter to talk to him again, but his patience and

kindness paid off; for him and for her.)

+Coal Miner's Daughter

>>

> Lately I've been waking up crying each morning, with this pain in my heart.

Still, I just try to be strong and be good, for my kids' sake. I often feel

completely powerless.

>

> Right now my MO has painted me black, and she has pulled my teenage daughter

in to her BPD drama. Dd is 17, living on her own w/bf 150 miles from home for

first time (last 3 months), and is completely enmeshed with my Mom (her

grandma). Dd has very strong BPD traits, and I fear dread this. I'm having

great difficulty dealing with the dramatic interactions between my Mom and my

dd, and how they try to suck me in (I'm usually pretty good w/my DAU, but not

w/my MOM, so I stay away as much as possible).

>>

> Lynn

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Lynn,

I am not implying that it will take 10 years with your daughter. This period is

more likely a temporary, growing up thing that could be over in days or weeks,

in my own opinion. Is it possible that your daughter kind of needs to be angry

with you to take this step into independence? If so, maybe her grandmother is

the family member she feels can give her some support?

+Coal Miner's Daughter

[Guest guest]

> >

> > Hello,

> > I'm looking for support from others who've experienced the lifelong pain of

a rejecting/blaming mother. I've been consigned to the " scapegoat " role in my

FOO, off and on for decades (am now 47).

> >

> > My Mother appears to be be primarily the QUEEN BPD type with strong WITCH

tendencies.

> >

> > I was in this group a few yrs. back when I first realized this and was in

shock about it (came out of denial?), and worked hard on my own recovery, esp.

setting boundaries, which did not work (backfired). I've put my recovery on the

backburner for survival reasons, basicaly, but am really needing support and

understanding now, again. I feel so alone, and like not one person in the world

truly understands what the hell is going on. On top of my own painful feelings,

others do not get it. They unintentionally make me feel worse, often, by

offering advice that somehow makes me feel judged, blamed, or like I'm supposed

to feel guilty (for not loving her unconditionallY). Does anyone identify

w/this?

> >

> > Things are much more complicated than they were 4-5 yrs.ago, my whole life

has changed. So much loss, so much grief, so much rejection. I don't even know

how I've survived to this point, honestly.

> >

> > Lately I've been waking up crying each morning, with this pain in my heart.

Still, I just try to be strong and be good, for my kids' sake. I often feel

completely powerless.

> >

> > Right now my MO has painted me black, and she has pulled my teenage daughter

in to her BPD drama. Dd is 17, living on her own w/bf 150 miles from home for

first time (last 3 months), and is completely enmeshed with my Mom (her

grandma). Dd has very strong BPD traits, and I fear dread this. I'm having

great difficulty dealing with the dramatic interactions between my Mom and my

dd, and how they try to suck me in (I'm usually pretty good w/my DAU, but not

w/my MOM, so I stay away as much as possible).

> >

> > I'm afraid to go to Christmas (at mom's house), and it looks like the

healthiest thing for me to do at this point is just stay home alone, while she

gets to have christmas w/my kids.

> >

> > She just sucks the life from me. It is SOOOOOO painful. Things were not

this bad, until after my Stepdad (mom's husband) passed away 4 years ago. And,

things got REAL BAD with my Mom REAL FAST, after that, in fact he wasn't even

gone an hour, and she turned her blaming hatred on me (at first I thought she

was in shock, his body was still in the living room), but not! It's gotten

worse and worse. I truly believe she wishes I were dead and gone from her.

> >

> > Lynn

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

I found this article (hope it is a right one) on Internet and copy -paste it.

It's a good one.

Y

God Squad: Must we honor abusive parents?

Something's been troubling me for years. I'm in my 60s now, and growing up I

suffered every kind of abuse at the hands of my father. I do not honor him; he's

worthy of no honor. In cases like mine, how grievous is not keeping the

commandment to honor your parents?

- C., via e-mail

There's something very deep, understandable, but still tragically disturbing in

us that wants the love of a parent even when all that parent offers is cruelty.

The problem comes from two sources. First, we have the natural tendency of

children to want to love their parents no matter how the parents behave. I call

this our " doggie nature " because we've all seen examples of dogs who, despite

abuse, continue to love a master who beats them.

The second source of your conflict is in the Ten Commandments. This is the

commandment we read in Exodus 20:12: " Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy

days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. "

These two inclinations, one from our human nature, and one from sacred

scripture, conflict with the litany of abuse you suffered. You ask how can a

loving God command us to honor a parent who is " worthy of no honor " ? The first

key to understanding the commandment is to read it carefully. We're not

commanded by God to love our parents; we're only commanded to honor them. Love

is a gift we freely give to those who have loved us.

Honor is a different thing entirely. Honor doesn't mean " honorable. " It means

" minimal respect. " In this case, honor is a recognition of a simple biological

fact. Without your father, you wouldn't exist, which means you owe your life to

him. Honor is the way you acknowledge that basic biological debt. What is the

content of that biological honoring? Not much more than simply fulfilling the

minimal duties of a son, like, for example, providing a decent burial for your

father.

Beyond the most basic filial responsibilities, you're not obligated to make a

mentor out of a monster.

Honoring your father by simply admitting that you owe him your life also can

help you let go of him and the effects of his cruelty. The alternative is for

you to spend every day of your life reliving his abuse. You need to come to a

place where you can see him for what he was. Try saying to yourself: " My father

was a terrible man, but somehow I survived him. I'm alive because of him, but

I'm not at peace because of him. I have to find peace myself. "

Your life depends upon finding some small place to put your gratitude for being

born, and then becoming free to live a long life untortured by your father's

malevolence.

The obligation to honor your father also extends to living a life that's the

spiritual opposite of his life. When you're loving toward your children, you

honor him in reverse. You honor the fact that he taught you how not to behave.

Parents can teach us by example both ways.

You may have noticed that I haven't urged you to take the course recommended by

some counselors and theologians, which is to try to understand why your father

was abusive, to find compassion for him because perhaps he learned his abusive

ways from his father, or to forgive his abuse as a form of mental illness. My

job is not to find ways to forgive monsters; that's God's job.

As I advise battered women, " You need to save yourself and get away from him

now. " You need to get away from the pain your father caused you, and I can't see

how forgiving him will help in that.

However, everyone's different, and forgiveness of an unrepentant abusive father

may work for you. I know people who've forgiven the murderers of their children.

I don't even know what that means. Either it represents a level of spiritual

compassion I don't possess or a deep distortion of what true forgiveness

involves. As I see it, this begins with repentance and only then is followed by

compassionate forgiveness. The main thing is that you don't have to love your

father to honor him. You owe him your life, but not your love. You honor him now

by letting him go.

> > >

> > > Hello,

> > > I'm looking for support from others who've experienced the lifelong pain

of a rejecting/blaming mother. I've been consigned to the " scapegoat " role in

my FOO, off and on for decades (am now 47).

> > >

> > > My Mother appears to be be primarily the QUEEN BPD type with strong WITCH

tendencies.

> > >

> > > I was in this group a few yrs. back when I first realized this and was in

shock about it (came out of denial?), and worked hard on my own recovery, esp.

setting boundaries, which did not work (backfired). I've put my recovery on the

backburner for survival reasons, basicaly, but am really needing support and

understanding now, again. I feel so alone, and like not one person in the world

truly understands what the hell is going on. On top of my own painful feelings,

others do not get it. They unintentionally make me feel worse, often, by

offering advice that somehow makes me feel judged, blamed, or like I'm supposed

to feel guilty (for not loving her unconditionallY). Does anyone identify

w/this?

> > >

> > > Things are much more complicated than they were 4-5 yrs.ago, my whole life

has changed. So much loss, so much grief, so much rejection. I don't even know

how I've survived to this point, honestly.

> > >

> > > Lately I've been waking up crying each morning, with this pain in my

heart. Still, I just try to be strong and be good, for my kids' sake. I often

feel completely powerless.

> > >

> > > Right now my MO has painted me black, and she has pulled my teenage

daughter in to her BPD drama. Dd is 17, living on her own w/bf 150 miles from

home for first time (last 3 months), and is completely enmeshed with my Mom (her

grandma). Dd has very strong BPD traits, and I fear dread this. I'm having

great difficulty dealing with the dramatic interactions between my Mom and my

dd, and how they try to suck me in (I'm usually pretty good w/my DAU, but not

w/my MOM, so I stay away as much as possible).

> > >

> > > I'm afraid to go to Christmas (at mom's house), and it looks like the

healthiest thing for me to do at this point is just stay home alone, while she

gets to have christmas w/my kids.

> > >

> > > She just sucks the life from me. It is SOOOOOO painful. Things were not

this bad, until after my Stepdad (mom's husband) passed away 4 years ago. And,

things got REAL BAD with my Mom REAL FAST, after that, in fact he wasn't even

gone an hour, and she turned her blaming hatred on me (at first I thought she

was in shock, his body was still in the living room), but not! It's gotten

worse and worse. I truly believe she wishes I were dead and gone from her.

> > >

> > > Lynn

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I found this article (hope it is a right one) on Internet and copy -paste it.

It's a good one.

Y

God Squad: Must we honor abusive parents?

Something's been troubling me for years. I'm in my 60s now, and growing up I

suffered every kind of abuse at the hands of my father. I do not honor him; he's

worthy of no honor. In cases like mine, how grievous is not keeping the

commandment to honor your parents?

- C., via e-mail

There's something very deep, understandable, but still tragically disturbing in

us that wants the love of a parent even when all that parent offers is cruelty.

The problem comes from two sources. First, we have the natural tendency of

children to want to love their parents no matter how the parents behave. I call

this our " doggie nature " because we've all seen examples of dogs who, despite

abuse, continue to love a master who beats them.

The second source of your conflict is in the Ten Commandments. This is the

commandment we read in Exodus 20:12: " Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy

days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. "

These two inclinations, one from our human nature, and one from sacred

scripture, conflict with the litany of abuse you suffered. You ask how can a

loving God command us to honor a parent who is " worthy of no honor " ? The first

key to understanding the commandment is to read it carefully. We're not

commanded by God to love our parents; we're only commanded to honor them. Love

is a gift we freely give to those who have loved us.

Honor is a different thing entirely. Honor doesn't mean " honorable. " It means

" minimal respect. " In this case, honor is a recognition of a simple biological

fact. Without your father, you wouldn't exist, which means you owe your life to

him. Honor is the way you acknowledge that basic biological debt. What is the

content of that biological honoring? Not much more than simply fulfilling the

minimal duties of a son, like, for example, providing a decent burial for your

father.

Beyond the most basic filial responsibilities, you're not obligated to make a

mentor out of a monster.

Honoring your father by simply admitting that you owe him your life also can

help you let go of him and the effects of his cruelty. The alternative is for

you to spend every day of your life reliving his abuse. You need to come to a

place where you can see him for what he was. Try saying to yourself: " My father

was a terrible man, but somehow I survived him. I'm alive because of him, but

I'm not at peace because of him. I have to find peace myself. "

Your life depends upon finding some small place to put your gratitude for being

born, and then becoming free to live a long life untortured by your father's

malevolence.

The obligation to honor your father also extends to living a life that's the

spiritual opposite of his life. When you're loving toward your children, you

honor him in reverse. You honor the fact that he taught you how not to behave.

Parents can teach us by example both ways.

You may have noticed that I haven't urged you to take the course recommended by

some counselors and theologians, which is to try to understand why your father

was abusive, to find compassion for him because perhaps he learned his abusive

ways from his father, or to forgive his abuse as a form of mental illness. My

job is not to find ways to forgive monsters; that's God's job.

As I advise battered women, " You need to save yourself and get away from him

now. " You need to get away from the pain your father caused you, and I can't see

how forgiving him will help in that.

However, everyone's different, and forgiveness of an unrepentant abusive father

may work for you. I know people who've forgiven the murderers of their children.

I don't even know what that means. Either it represents a level of spiritual

compassion I don't possess or a deep distortion of what true forgiveness

involves. As I see it, this begins with repentance and only then is followed by

compassionate forgiveness. The main thing is that you don't have to love your

father to honor him. You owe him your life, but not your love. You honor him now

by letting him go.

> > >

> > > Hello,

> > > I'm looking for support from others who've experienced the lifelong pain

of a rejecting/blaming mother. I've been consigned to the " scapegoat " role in

my FOO, off and on for decades (am now 47).

> > >

> > > My Mother appears to be be primarily the QUEEN BPD type with strong WITCH

tendencies.

> > >

> > > I was in this group a few yrs. back when I first realized this and was in

shock about it (came out of denial?), and worked hard on my own recovery, esp.

setting boundaries, which did not work (backfired). I've put my recovery on the

backburner for survival reasons, basicaly, but am really needing support and

understanding now, again. I feel so alone, and like not one person in the world

truly understands what the hell is going on. On top of my own painful feelings,

others do not get it. They unintentionally make me feel worse, often, by

offering advice that somehow makes me feel judged, blamed, or like I'm supposed

to feel guilty (for not loving her unconditionallY). Does anyone identify

w/this?

> > >

> > > Things are much more complicated than they were 4-5 yrs.ago, my whole life

has changed. So much loss, so much grief, so much rejection. I don't even know

how I've survived to this point, honestly.

> > >

> > > Lately I've been waking up crying each morning, with this pain in my

heart. Still, I just try to be strong and be good, for my kids' sake. I often

feel completely powerless.

> > >

> > > Right now my MO has painted me black, and she has pulled my teenage

daughter in to her BPD drama. Dd is 17, living on her own w/bf 150 miles from

home for first time (last 3 months), and is completely enmeshed with my Mom (her

grandma). Dd has very strong BPD traits, and I fear dread this. I'm having

great difficulty dealing with the dramatic interactions between my Mom and my

dd, and how they try to suck me in (I'm usually pretty good w/my DAU, but not

w/my MOM, so I stay away as much as possible).

> > >

> > > I'm afraid to go to Christmas (at mom's house), and it looks like the

healthiest thing for me to do at this point is just stay home alone, while she

gets to have christmas w/my kids.

> > >

> > > She just sucks the life from me. It is SOOOOOO painful. Things were not

this bad, until after my Stepdad (mom's husband) passed away 4 years ago. And,

things got REAL BAD with my Mom REAL FAST, after that, in fact he wasn't even

gone an hour, and she turned her blaming hatred on me (at first I thought she

was in shock, his body was still in the living room), but not! It's gotten

worse and worse. I truly believe she wishes I were dead and gone from her.

> > >

> > > Lynn

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

yenaine...yes...that's it...thank you for finding it!!

It's helped me a lot.

Amy

Fwd: Re: INTRO

I found this article (hope it is a right one) on Internet and copy -paste it.

It's a good one.

Y

God Squad: Must we honor abusive parents?

Something's been troubling me for years. I'm in my 60s now, and growing up I

suffered every kind of abuse at the hands of my father. I do not honor him; he's

worthy of no honor. In cases like mine, how grievous is not keeping the

commandment to honor your parents?

- C., via e-mail

There's something very deep, understandable, but still tragically disturbing in

us that wants the love of a parent even when all that parent offers is cruelty.

The problem comes from two sources. First, we have the natural tendency of

children to want to love their parents no matter how the parents behave. I call

this our " doggie nature " because we've all seen examples of dogs who, despite

abuse, continue to love a master who beats them.

The second source of your conflict is in the Ten Commandments. This is the

commandment we read in Exodus 20:12: " Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy

days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. "

These two inclinations, one from our human nature, and one from sacred

scripture, conflict with the litany of abuse you suffered. You ask how can a

loving God command us to honor a parent who is " worthy of no honor " ? The first

key to understanding the commandment is to read it carefully. We're not

commanded by God to love our parents; we're only commanded to honor them. Love

is a gift we freely give to those who have loved us.

Honor is a different thing entirely. Honor doesn't mean " honorable. " It means

" minimal respect. " In this case, honor is a recognition of a simple biological

fact. Without your father, you wouldn't exist, which means you owe your life to

him. Honor is the way you acknowledge that basic biological debt. What is the

content of that biological honoring? Not much more than simply fulfilling the

minimal duties of a son, like, for example, providing a decent burial for your

father.

Beyond the most basic filial responsibilities, you're not obligated to make a

mentor out of a monster.

Honoring your father by simply admitting that you owe him your life also can

help you let go of him and the effects of his cruelty. The alternative is for

you to spend every day of your life reliving his abuse. You need to come to a

place where you can see him for what he was. Try saying to yourself: " My father

was a terrible man, but somehow I survived him. I'm alive because of him, but

I'm not at peace because of him. I have to find peace myself. "

Your life depends upon finding some small place to put your gratitude for being

born, and then becoming free to live a long life untortured by your father's

malevolence.

The obligation to honor your father also extends to living a life that's the

spiritual opposite of his life. When you're loving toward your children, you

honor him in reverse. You honor the fact that he taught you how not to behave.

Parents can teach us by example both ways.

You may have noticed that I haven't urged you to take the course recommended by

some counselors and theologians, which is to try to understand why your father

was abusive, to find compassion for him because perhaps he learned his abusive

ways from his father, or to forgive his abuse as a form of mental illness. My

job is not to find ways to forgive monsters; that's God's job.

As I advise battered women, " You need to save yourself and get away from him

now. " You need to get away from the pain your father caused you, and I can't see

how forgiving him will help in that.

However, everyone's different, and forgiveness of an unrepentant abusive father

may work for you. I know people who've forgiven the murderers of their children.

I don't even know what that means. Either it represents a level of spiritual

compassion I don't possess or a deep distortion of what true forgiveness

involves. As I see it, this begins with repentance and only then is followed by

compassionate forgiveness. The main thing is that you don't have to love your

father to honor him. You owe him your life, but not your love. You honor him now

by letting him go.

> > >

> > > Hello,

> > > I'm looking for support from others who've experienced the lifelong pain

of a rejecting/blaming mother. I've been consigned to the " scapegoat " role in

my FOO, off and on for decades (am now 47).

> > >

> > > My Mother appears to be be primarily the QUEEN BPD type with strong WITCH

tendencies.

> > >

> > > I was in this group a few yrs. back when I first realized this and was in

shock about it (came out of denial?), and worked hard on my own recovery, esp.

setting boundaries, which did not work (backfired). I've put my recovery on the

backburner for survival reasons, basicaly, but am really needing support and

understanding now, again. I feel so alone, and like not one person in the world

truly understands what the hell is going on. On top of my own painful feelings,

others do not get it. They unintentionally make me feel worse, often, by

offering advice that somehow makes me feel judged, blamed, or like I'm supposed

to feel guilty (for not loving her unconditionallY). Does anyone identify

w/this?

> > >

> > > Things are much more complicated than they were 4-5 yrs.ago, my whole life

has changed. So much loss, so much grief, so much rejection. I don't even know

how I've survived to this point, honestly.

> > >

> > > Lately I've been waking up crying each morning, with this pain in my

heart. Still, I just try to be strong and be good, for my kids' sake. I often

feel completely powerless.

> > >

> > > Right now my MO has painted me black, and she has pulled my teenage

daughter in to her BPD drama. Dd is 17, living on her own w/bf 150 miles from

home for first time (last 3 months), and is completely enmeshed with my Mom (her

grandma). Dd has very strong BPD traits, and I fear dread this. I'm having

great difficulty dealing with the dramatic interactions between my Mom and my

dd, and how they try to suck me in (I'm usually pretty good w/my DAU, but not

w/my MOM, so I stay away as much as possible).

> > >

> > > I'm afraid to go to Christmas (at mom's house), and it looks like the

healthiest thing for me to do at this point is just stay home alone, while she

gets to have christmas w/my kids.

> > >

> > > She just sucks the life from me. It is SOOOOOO painful. Things were not

this bad, until after my Stepdad (mom's husband) passed away 4 years ago. And,

things got REAL BAD with my Mom REAL FAST, after that, in fact he wasn't even

gone an hour, and she turned her blaming hatred on me (at first I thought she

was in shock, his body was still in the living room), but not! It's gotten

worse and worse. I truly believe she wishes I were dead and gone from her.

> > >

> > > Lynn

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

yenaine...yes...that's it...thank you for finding it!!

It's helped me a lot.

Amy

Fwd: Re: INTRO

I found this article (hope it is a right one) on Internet and copy -paste it.

It's a good one.

Y

God Squad: Must we honor abusive parents?

Something's been troubling me for years. I'm in my 60s now, and growing up I

suffered every kind of abuse at the hands of my father. I do not honor him; he's

worthy of no honor. In cases like mine, how grievous is not keeping the

commandment to honor your parents?

- C., via e-mail

There's something very deep, understandable, but still tragically disturbing in

us that wants the love of a parent even when all that parent offers is cruelty.

The problem comes from two sources. First, we have the natural tendency of

children to want to love their parents no matter how the parents behave. I call

this our " doggie nature " because we've all seen examples of dogs who, despite

abuse, continue to love a master who beats them.

The second source of your conflict is in the Ten Commandments. This is the

commandment we read in Exodus 20:12: " Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy

days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. "

These two inclinations, one from our human nature, and one from sacred

scripture, conflict with the litany of abuse you suffered. You ask how can a

loving God command us to honor a parent who is " worthy of no honor " ? The first

key to understanding the commandment is to read it carefully. We're not

commanded by God to love our parents; we're only commanded to honor them. Love

is a gift we freely give to those who have loved us.

Honor is a different thing entirely. Honor doesn't mean " honorable. " It means

" minimal respect. " In this case, honor is a recognition of a simple biological

fact. Without your father, you wouldn't exist, which means you owe your life to

him. Honor is the way you acknowledge that basic biological debt. What is the

content of that biological honoring? Not much more than simply fulfilling the

minimal duties of a son, like, for example, providing a decent burial for your

father.

Beyond the most basic filial responsibilities, you're not obligated to make a

mentor out of a monster.

Honoring your father by simply admitting that you owe him your life also can

help you let go of him and the effects of his cruelty. The alternative is for

you to spend every day of your life reliving his abuse. You need to come to a

place where you can see him for what he was. Try saying to yourself: " My father

was a terrible man, but somehow I survived him. I'm alive because of him, but

I'm not at peace because of him. I have to find peace myself. "

Your life depends upon finding some small place to put your gratitude for being

born, and then becoming free to live a long life untortured by your father's

malevolence.

The obligation to honor your father also extends to living a life that's the

spiritual opposite of his life. When you're loving toward your children, you

honor him in reverse. You honor the fact that he taught you how not to behave.

Parents can teach us by example both ways.

You may have noticed that I haven't urged you to take the course recommended by

some counselors and theologians, which is to try to understand why your father

was abusive, to find compassion for him because perhaps he learned his abusive

ways from his father, or to forgive his abuse as a form of mental illness. My

job is not to find ways to forgive monsters; that's God's job.

As I advise battered women, " You need to save yourself and get away from him

now. " You need to get away from the pain your father caused you, and I can't see

how forgiving him will help in that.

However, everyone's different, and forgiveness of an unrepentant abusive father

may work for you. I know people who've forgiven the murderers of their children.

I don't even know what that means. Either it represents a level of spiritual

compassion I don't possess or a deep distortion of what true forgiveness

involves. As I see it, this begins with repentance and only then is followed by

compassionate forgiveness. The main thing is that you don't have to love your

father to honor him. You owe him your life, but not your love. You honor him now

by letting him go.

> > >

> > > Hello,

> > > I'm looking for support from others who've experienced the lifelong pain

of a rejecting/blaming mother. I've been consigned to the " scapegoat " role in

my FOO, off and on for decades (am now 47).

> > >

> > > My Mother appears to be be primarily the QUEEN BPD type with strong WITCH

tendencies.

> > >

> > > I was in this group a few yrs. back when I first realized this and was in

shock about it (came out of denial?), and worked hard on my own recovery, esp.

setting boundaries, which did not work (backfired). I've put my recovery on the

backburner for survival reasons, basicaly, but am really needing support and

understanding now, again. I feel so alone, and like not one person in the world

truly understands what the hell is going on. On top of my own painful feelings,

others do not get it. They unintentionally make me feel worse, often, by

offering advice that somehow makes me feel judged, blamed, or like I'm supposed

to feel guilty (for not loving her unconditionallY). Does anyone identify

w/this?

> > >

> > > Things are much more complicated than they were 4-5 yrs.ago, my whole life

has changed. So much loss, so much grief, so much rejection. I don't even know

how I've survived to this point, honestly.

> > >

> > > Lately I've been waking up crying each morning, with this pain in my

heart. Still, I just try to be strong and be good, for my kids' sake. I often

feel completely powerless.

> > >

> > > Right now my MO has painted me black, and she has pulled my teenage

daughter in to her BPD drama. Dd is 17, living on her own w/bf 150 miles from

home for first time (last 3 months), and is completely enmeshed with my Mom (her

grandma). Dd has very strong BPD traits, and I fear dread this. I'm having

great difficulty dealing with the dramatic interactions between my Mom and my

dd, and how they try to suck me in (I'm usually pretty good w/my DAU, but not

w/my MOM, so I stay away as much as possible).

> > >

> > > I'm afraid to go to Christmas (at mom's house), and it looks like the

healthiest thing for me to do at this point is just stay home alone, while she

gets to have christmas w/my kids.

> > >

> > > She just sucks the life from me. It is SOOOOOO painful. Things were not

this bad, until after my Stepdad (mom's husband) passed away 4 years ago. And,

things got REAL BAD with my Mom REAL FAST, after that, in fact he wasn't even

gone an hour, and she turned her blaming hatred on me (at first I thought she

was in shock, his body was still in the living room), but not! It's gotten

worse and worse. I truly believe she wishes I were dead and gone from her.

> > >

> > > Lynn

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

yenaine...yes...that's it...thank you for finding it!!

It's helped me a lot.

Amy

Fwd: Re: INTRO

I found this article (hope it is a right one) on Internet and copy -paste it.

It's a good one.

Y

God Squad: Must we honor abusive parents?

Something's been troubling me for years. I'm in my 60s now, and growing up I

suffered every kind of abuse at the hands of my father. I do not honor him; he's

worthy of no honor. In cases like mine, how grievous is not keeping the

commandment to honor your parents?

- C., via e-mail

There's something very deep, understandable, but still tragically disturbing in

us that wants the love of a parent even when all that parent offers is cruelty.

The problem comes from two sources. First, we have the natural tendency of

children to want to love their parents no matter how the parents behave. I call

this our " doggie nature " because we've all seen examples of dogs who, despite

abuse, continue to love a master who beats them.

The second source of your conflict is in the Ten Commandments. This is the

commandment we read in Exodus 20:12: " Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy

days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. "

These two inclinations, one from our human nature, and one from sacred

scripture, conflict with the litany of abuse you suffered. You ask how can a

loving God command us to honor a parent who is " worthy of no honor " ? The first

key to understanding the commandment is to read it carefully. We're not

commanded by God to love our parents; we're only commanded to honor them. Love

is a gift we freely give to those who have loved us.

Honor is a different thing entirely. Honor doesn't mean " honorable. " It means

" minimal respect. " In this case, honor is a recognition of a simple biological

fact. Without your father, you wouldn't exist, which means you owe your life to

him. Honor is the way you acknowledge that basic biological debt. What is the

content of that biological honoring? Not much more than simply fulfilling the

minimal duties of a son, like, for example, providing a decent burial for your

father.

Beyond the most basic filial responsibilities, you're not obligated to make a

mentor out of a monster.

Honoring your father by simply admitting that you owe him your life also can

help you let go of him and the effects of his cruelty. The alternative is for

you to spend every day of your life reliving his abuse. You need to come to a

place where you can see him for what he was. Try saying to yourself: " My father

was a terrible man, but somehow I survived him. I'm alive because of him, but

I'm not at peace because of him. I have to find peace myself. "

Your life depends upon finding some small place to put your gratitude for being

born, and then becoming free to live a long life untortured by your father's

malevolence.

The obligation to honor your father also extends to living a life that's the

spiritual opposite of his life. When you're loving toward your children, you

honor him in reverse. You honor the fact that he taught you how not to behave.

Parents can teach us by example both ways.

You may have noticed that I haven't urged you to take the course recommended by

some counselors and theologians, which is to try to understand why your father

was abusive, to find compassion for him because perhaps he learned his abusive

ways from his father, or to forgive his abuse as a form of mental illness. My

job is not to find ways to forgive monsters; that's God's job.

As I advise battered women, " You need to save yourself and get away from him

now. " You need to get away from the pain your father caused you, and I can't see

how forgiving him will help in that.

However, everyone's different, and forgiveness of an unrepentant abusive father

may work for you. I know people who've forgiven the murderers of their children.

I don't even know what that means. Either it represents a level of spiritual

compassion I don't possess or a deep distortion of what true forgiveness

involves. As I see it, this begins with repentance and only then is followed by

compassionate forgiveness. The main thing is that you don't have to love your

father to honor him. You owe him your life, but not your love. You honor him now

by letting him go.

> > >

> > > Hello,

> > > I'm looking for support from others who've experienced the lifelong pain

of a rejecting/blaming mother. I've been consigned to the " scapegoat " role in

my FOO, off and on for decades (am now 47).

> > >

> > > My Mother appears to be be primarily the QUEEN BPD type with strong WITCH

tendencies.

> > >

> > > I was in this group a few yrs. back when I first realized this and was in

shock about it (came out of denial?), and worked hard on my own recovery, esp.

setting boundaries, which did not work (backfired). I've put my recovery on the

backburner for survival reasons, basicaly, but am really needing support and

understanding now, again. I feel so alone, and like not one person in the world

truly understands what the hell is going on. On top of my own painful feelings,

others do not get it. They unintentionally make me feel worse, often, by

offering advice that somehow makes me feel judged, blamed, or like I'm supposed

to feel guilty (for not loving her unconditionallY). Does anyone identify

w/this?

> > >

> > > Things are much more complicated than they were 4-5 yrs.ago, my whole life

has changed. So much loss, so much grief, so much rejection. I don't even know

how I've survived to this point, honestly.

> > >

> > > Lately I've been waking up crying each morning, with this pain in my

heart. Still, I just try to be strong and be good, for my kids' sake. I often

feel completely powerless.

> > >

> > > Right now my MO has painted me black, and she has pulled my teenage

daughter in to her BPD drama. Dd is 17, living on her own w/bf 150 miles from

home for first time (last 3 months), and is completely enmeshed with my Mom (her

grandma). Dd has very strong BPD traits, and I fear dread this. I'm having

great difficulty dealing with the dramatic interactions between my Mom and my

dd, and how they try to suck me in (I'm usually pretty good w/my DAU, but not

w/my MOM, so I stay away as much as possible).

> > >

> > > I'm afraid to go to Christmas (at mom's house), and it looks like the

healthiest thing for me to do at this point is just stay home alone, while she

gets to have christmas w/my kids.

> > >

> > > She just sucks the life from me. It is SOOOOOO painful. Things were not

this bad, until after my Stepdad (mom's husband) passed away 4 years ago. And,

things got REAL BAD with my Mom REAL FAST, after that, in fact he wasn't even

gone an hour, and she turned her blaming hatred on me (at first I thought she

was in shock, his body was still in the living room), but not! It's gotten

worse and worse. I truly believe she wishes I were dead and gone from her.

> > >

> > > Lynn

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hello,

Thanks for your understanding, welcome, and hug. I really appreciate it. My

nada is now speaking to me again, and I'm feeling relieved, but also nervous

(waiting for other shoe to drop). Right now, I just want to make it through the

holidays, which are typically tough for me bc of family dynamics (specifically,

It's so hard to deal with her, especially at x-mas because of her EXCESSIVE

spending, disrespect, and lack of boundaries). I so wish I had gone NC years

ago, when my children were small, but I did not know, and she's gotten worse.

She's being very " nice " at the moment, but I'm keeping a good healthy distance.

I've only been back in contact for about a year now, and it hasn't gone too

well. Just reading the messages on this list is helping me not to feel so alone

& misunderstood, although I don't wish this 'problem' on anyone. For many years

I believed I was the problem, and I had internalized all that as a

teenager/young adult, especially. Even though I realize that is not only untrue

(but is a result of long-term emotional abuse & neglect), I still sometimes go

there (inside, my feelings). Sometimes I feel so overwhelmed with grief,

sadness, loss, it frightens me. It was like that this morning, but the day got

better.

I like what you shared about being careful who you share this with, and that is

what I need to do.

I am going to try keeping this problem/issue (which affects every aspect of my

life!)LOL, to this list for a time. I actually only talk to a couple of very

close friends about my pain around my MOm, but I've noticed they don't

understand, and will say things that are unhelpful. Give advice with good

intentions and all, but it isn't good advice, knowing what I know. I get so

tired of trying to explain myself. Or trying to get support or understanding in

from people who just can't. Maybe one can only really get it, if they've had a

similar experience w/ their Mom. What do you think?

Lynn

> >

> > Hello,

> > I'm looking for support from others who've experienced the lifelong pain of

a rejecting/blaming mother. I've been consigned to the " scapegoat " role in my

FOO, off and on for decades (am now 47).

> >

> > My Mother appears to be be primarily the QUEEN BPD type with strong WITCH

tendencies.

> >

> > I was in this group a few yrs. back when I first realized this and was in

shock about it (came out of denial?), and worked hard on my own recovery, esp.

setting boundaries, which did not work (backfired). I've put my recovery on the

backburner for survival reasons, basicaly, but am really needing support and

understanding now, again. I feel so alone, and like not one person in the world

truly understands what the hell is going on. On top of my own painful feelings,

others do not get it. They unintentionally make me feel worse, often, by

offering advice that somehow makes me feel judged, blamed, or like I'm supposed

to feel guilty (for not loving her unconditionallY). Does anyone identify

w/this?

> >

> > Things are much more complicated than they were 4-5 yrs.ago, my whole life

has changed. So much loss, so much grief, so much rejection. I don't even know

how I've survived to this point, honestly.

> >

> > Lately I've been waking up crying each morning, with this pain in my heart.

Still, I just try to be strong and be good, for my kids' sake. I often feel

completely powerless.

> >

> > Right now my MO has painted me black, and she has pulled my teenage daughter

in to her BPD drama. Dd is 17, living on her own w/bf 150 miles from home for

first time (last 3 months), and is completely enmeshed with my Mom (her

grandma). Dd has very strong BPD traits, and I fear dread this. I'm having

great difficulty dealing with the dramatic interactions between my Mom and my

dd, and how they try to suck me in (I'm usually pretty good w/my DAU, but not

w/my MOM, so I stay away as much as possible).

> >

> > I'm afraid to go to Christmas (at mom's house), and it looks like the

healthiest thing for me to do at this point is just stay home alone, while she

gets to have christmas w/my kids.

> >

> > She just sucks the life from me. It is SOOOOOO painful. Things were not

this bad, until after my Stepdad (mom's husband) passed away 4 years ago. And,

things got REAL BAD with my Mom REAL FAST, after that, in fact he wasn't even

gone an hour, and she turned her blaming hatred on me (at first I thought she

was in shock, his body was still in the living room), but not! It's gotten

worse and worse. I truly believe she wishes I were dead and gone from her.

> >

> > Lynn

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hello,

Thanks for your understanding, welcome, and hug. I really appreciate it. My

nada is now speaking to me again, and I'm feeling relieved, but also nervous

(waiting for other shoe to drop). Right now, I just want to make it through the

holidays, which are typically tough for me bc of family dynamics (specifically,

It's so hard to deal with her, especially at x-mas because of her EXCESSIVE

spending, disrespect, and lack of boundaries). I so wish I had gone NC years

ago, when my children were small, but I did not know, and she's gotten worse.

She's being very " nice " at the moment, but I'm keeping a good healthy distance.

I've only been back in contact for about a year now, and it hasn't gone too

well. Just reading the messages on this list is helping me not to feel so alone

& misunderstood, although I don't wish this 'problem' on anyone. For many years

I believed I was the problem, and I had internalized all that as a

teenager/young adult, especially. Even though I realize that is not only untrue

(but is a result of long-term emotional abuse & neglect), I still sometimes go

there (inside, my feelings). Sometimes I feel so overwhelmed with grief,

sadness, loss, it frightens me. It was like that this morning, but the day got

better.

I like what you shared about being careful who you share this with, and that is

what I need to do.

I am going to try keeping this problem/issue (which affects every aspect of my

life!)LOL, to this list for a time. I actually only talk to a couple of very

close friends about my pain around my MOm, but I've noticed they don't

understand, and will say things that are unhelpful. Give advice with good

intentions and all, but it isn't good advice, knowing what I know. I get so

tired of trying to explain myself. Or trying to get support or understanding in

from people who just can't. Maybe one can only really get it, if they've had a

similar experience w/ their Mom. What do you think?

Lynn

> >

> > Hello,

> > I'm looking for support from others who've experienced the lifelong pain of

a rejecting/blaming mother. I've been consigned to the " scapegoat " role in my

FOO, off and on for decades (am now 47).

> >

> > My Mother appears to be be primarily the QUEEN BPD type with strong WITCH

tendencies.

> >

> > I was in this group a few yrs. back when I first realized this and was in

shock about it (came out of denial?), and worked hard on my own recovery, esp.

setting boundaries, which did not work (backfired). I've put my recovery on the

backburner for survival reasons, basicaly, but am really needing support and

understanding now, again. I feel so alone, and like not one person in the world

truly understands what the hell is going on. On top of my own painful feelings,

others do not get it. They unintentionally make me feel worse, often, by

offering advice that somehow makes me feel judged, blamed, or like I'm supposed

to feel guilty (for not loving her unconditionallY). Does anyone identify

w/this?

> >

> > Things are much more complicated than they were 4-5 yrs.ago, my whole life

has changed. So much loss, so much grief, so much rejection. I don't even know

how I've survived to this point, honestly.

> >

> > Lately I've been waking up crying each morning, with this pain in my heart.

Still, I just try to be strong and be good, for my kids' sake. I often feel

completely powerless.

> >

> > Right now my MO has painted me black, and she has pulled my teenage daughter

in to her BPD drama. Dd is 17, living on her own w/bf 150 miles from home for

first time (last 3 months), and is completely enmeshed with my Mom (her

grandma). Dd has very strong BPD traits, and I fear dread this. I'm having

great difficulty dealing with the dramatic interactions between my Mom and my

dd, and how they try to suck me in (I'm usually pretty good w/my DAU, but not

w/my MOM, so I stay away as much as possible).

> >

> > I'm afraid to go to Christmas (at mom's house), and it looks like the

healthiest thing for me to do at this point is just stay home alone, while she

gets to have christmas w/my kids.

> >

> > She just sucks the life from me. It is SOOOOOO painful. Things were not

this bad, until after my Stepdad (mom's husband) passed away 4 years ago. And,

things got REAL BAD with my Mom REAL FAST, after that, in fact he wasn't even

gone an hour, and she turned her blaming hatred on me (at first I thought she

was in shock, his body was still in the living room), but not! It's gotten

worse and worse. I truly believe she wishes I were dead and gone from her.

> >

> > Lynn

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hello Amy, and all,

This was a very good article, I'll have to print it so I can reread it. Thanks

so much for sharing this.

Lynn

> > > >

> > > > Hello,

> > > > I'm looking for support from others who've experienced the lifelong pain

of a rejecting/blaming mother. I've been consigned to the " scapegoat " role in

my FOO, off and on for decades (am now 47).

> > > >

> > > > My Mother appears to be be primarily the QUEEN BPD type with strong

WITCH tendencies.

> > > >

> > > > I was in this group a few yrs. back when I first realized this and was

in shock about it (came out of denial?), and worked hard on my own recovery,

esp. setting boundaries, which did not work (backfired). I've put my recovery

on the backburner for survival reasons, basicaly, but am really needing support

and understanding now, again. I feel so alone, and like not one person in the

world truly understands what the hell is going on. On top of my own painful

feelings, others do not get it. They unintentionally make me feel worse, often,

by offering advice that somehow makes me feel judged, blamed, or like I'm

supposed to feel guilty (for not loving her unconditionallY). Does anyone

identify w/this?

> > > >

> > > > Things are much more complicated than they were 4-5 yrs.ago, my whole

life has changed. So much loss, so much grief, so much rejection. I don't even

know how I've survived to this point, honestly.

> > > >

> > > > Lately I've been waking up crying each morning, with this pain in my

heart. Still, I just try to be strong and be good, for my kids' sake. I often

feel completely powerless.

> > > >

> > > > Right now my MO has painted me black, and she has pulled my teenage

daughter in to her BPD drama. Dd is 17, living on her own w/bf 150 miles from

home for first time (last 3 months), and is completely enmeshed with my Mom (her

grandma). Dd has very strong BPD traits, and I fear dread this. I'm having

great difficulty dealing with the dramatic interactions between my Mom and my

dd, and how they try to suck me in (I'm usually pretty good w/my DAU, but not

w/my MOM, so I stay away as much as possible).

> > > >

> > > > I'm afraid to go to Christmas (at mom's house), and it looks like the

healthiest thing for me to do at this point is just stay home alone, while she

gets to have christmas w/my kids.

> > > >

> > > > She just sucks the life from me. It is SOOOOOO painful. Things were

not this bad, until after my Stepdad (mom's husband) passed away 4 years ago.

And, things got REAL BAD with my Mom REAL FAST, after that, in fact he wasn't

even gone an hour, and she turned her blaming hatred on me (at first I thought

she was in shock, his body was still in the living room), but not! It's gotten

worse and worse. I truly believe she wishes I were dead and gone from her.

> > > >

> > > > Lynn

> > > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hello Amy, and all,

This was a very good article, I'll have to print it so I can reread it. Thanks

so much for sharing this.

Lynn

> > > >

> > > > Hello,

> > > > I'm looking for support from others who've experienced the lifelong pain

of a rejecting/blaming mother. I've been consigned to the " scapegoat " role in

my FOO, off and on for decades (am now 47).

> > > >

> > > > My Mother appears to be be primarily the QUEEN BPD type with strong

WITCH tendencies.

> > > >

> > > > I was in this group a few yrs. back when I first realized this and was

in shock about it (came out of denial?), and worked hard on my own recovery,

esp. setting boundaries, which did not work (backfired). I've put my recovery

on the backburner for survival reasons, basicaly, but am really needing support

and understanding now, again. I feel so alone, and like not one person in the

world truly understands what the hell is going on. On top of my own painful

feelings, others do not get it. They unintentionally make me feel worse, often,

by offering advice that somehow makes me feel judged, blamed, or like I'm

supposed to feel guilty (for not loving her unconditionallY). Does anyone

identify w/this?

> > > >

> > > > Things are much more complicated than they were 4-5 yrs.ago, my whole

life has changed. So much loss, so much grief, so much rejection. I don't even

know how I've survived to this point, honestly.

> > > >

> > > > Lately I've been waking up crying each morning, with this pain in my

heart. Still, I just try to be strong and be good, for my kids' sake. I often

feel completely powerless.

> > > >

> > > > Right now my MO has painted me black, and she has pulled my teenage

daughter in to her BPD drama. Dd is 17, living on her own w/bf 150 miles from

home for first time (last 3 months), and is completely enmeshed with my Mom (her

grandma). Dd has very strong BPD traits, and I fear dread this. I'm having

great difficulty dealing with the dramatic interactions between my Mom and my

dd, and how they try to suck me in (I'm usually pretty good w/my DAU, but not

w/my MOM, so I stay away as much as possible).

> > > >

> > > > I'm afraid to go to Christmas (at mom's house), and it looks like the

healthiest thing for me to do at this point is just stay home alone, while she

gets to have christmas w/my kids.

> > > >

> > > > She just sucks the life from me. It is SOOOOOO painful. Things were

not this bad, until after my Stepdad (mom's husband) passed away 4 years ago.

And, things got REAL BAD with my Mom REAL FAST, after that, in fact he wasn't

even gone an hour, and she turned her blaming hatred on me (at first I thought

she was in shock, his body was still in the living room), but not! It's gotten

worse and worse. I truly believe she wishes I were dead and gone from her.

> > > >

> > > > Lynn

> > > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hello CMD:-),

Nice to meet you. I don't know your story or present situation, but all I can

say is I think it is extremely important that we learn to listen to our gut.

I've learned to validate myself, but it has taken years of hard work, and

feeling nuts. I can't remember all the BPD lingo, I'll have to freshen up, but

for instance, whenever I have an 'interaction' w/my nada that is

verbally/emotionally innappropriate/painful/abusive, you know violating personal

boundaries and laying guilt trips and blame, etc., I leave the situation so

shaken and upset (usually crying, shaking, angry, if real bad/unexpected). It

used to be that I couldn't/wouldn't even believe she truly said such and such to

me or treated me in such a way, until and unless I had a witness who verified it

for me.

This is what I learned growing up with that woman. That my feelings do not

matter. That I don't matter. She still treats me that way. She can treat

almost everyone else much better than she can me, her own daughter.

A couple of weeks ago, the last time it happened, and the last time I spoke to

her until my daughter's birthday party the other day, I told her I've wondered

my whole life why she disliked me so, and told her I've assumed I must remind

her of either my father (she divorced when I was 10) or his mother (my grandma).

Since I was 10 yrs. old she's had nothing but hatred, and condemnation for both

of these important people in my life. There's something wrong with that picture

right there. But, I was unaware for a long time, to me her illness was NORMAL,

since she raised me, and had me all to herself, and she was EXTREMELY

codependent/controlling/enmeshed with me, especilly after my younger brother

became institutionalized with SMI (schizophrenia).

I didn't mean to go on and on. I've just had not time until now, and I wanted

to write back, and catch up on some of these emails. I have a 3 week break

before the next quarter begins, so that will be nice.

I'm hoping to get support from this group through the Holidays. I seem to be

emotionally ready to deal with some of this, to process it as it happens. At

least I hope so.

I appreciate your support and your advice, it helps. I think it's good advice,

but it is very hard, the hardest thing I've ever done. The only reason I even

can do it, is because I have no other choice. My older kids have already been

so affected by her illness and the famiy dysfunction. I so wish I could've

handled things differently back then. At least now, I am much more aware, in

raising my younger child.

Write back, and tell me how your are. Do you have contact w/your BPD? If so,

how do you handle these things day to day?

Lynn

> >>

> > Lately I've been waking up crying each morning, with this pain in my heart.

Still, I just try to be strong and be good, for my kids' sake. I often feel

completely powerless.

> >

> > Right now my MO has painted me black, and she has pulled my teenage daughter

in to her BPD drama. Dd is 17, living on her own w/bf 150 miles from home for

first time (last 3 months), and is completely enmeshed with my Mom (her

grandma). Dd has very strong BPD traits, and I fear dread this. I'm having

great difficulty dealing with the dramatic interactions between my Mom and my

dd, and how they try to suck me in (I'm usually pretty good w/my DAU, but not

w/my MOM, so I stay away as much as possible).

> >>

> > Lynn

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hello CMD:-),

Nice to meet you. I don't know your story or present situation, but all I can

say is I think it is extremely important that we learn to listen to our gut.

I've learned to validate myself, but it has taken years of hard work, and

feeling nuts. I can't remember all the BPD lingo, I'll have to freshen up, but

for instance, whenever I have an 'interaction' w/my nada that is

verbally/emotionally innappropriate/painful/abusive, you know violating personal

boundaries and laying guilt trips and blame, etc., I leave the situation so

shaken and upset (usually crying, shaking, angry, if real bad/unexpected). It

used to be that I couldn't/wouldn't even believe she truly said such and such to

me or treated me in such a way, until and unless I had a witness who verified it

for me.

This is what I learned growing up with that woman. That my feelings do not

matter. That I don't matter. She still treats me that way. She can treat

almost everyone else much better than she can me, her own daughter.

A couple of weeks ago, the last time it happened, and the last time I spoke to

her until my daughter's birthday party the other day, I told her I've wondered

my whole life why she disliked me so, and told her I've assumed I must remind

her of either my father (she divorced when I was 10) or his mother (my grandma).

Since I was 10 yrs. old she's had nothing but hatred, and condemnation for both

of these important people in my life. There's something wrong with that picture

right there. But, I was unaware for a long time, to me her illness was NORMAL,

since she raised me, and had me all to herself, and she was EXTREMELY

codependent/controlling/enmeshed with me, especilly after my younger brother

became institutionalized with SMI (schizophrenia).

I didn't mean to go on and on. I've just had not time until now, and I wanted

to write back, and catch up on some of these emails. I have a 3 week break

before the next quarter begins, so that will be nice.

I'm hoping to get support from this group through the Holidays. I seem to be

emotionally ready to deal with some of this, to process it as it happens. At

least I hope so.

I appreciate your support and your advice, it helps. I think it's good advice,

but it is very hard, the hardest thing I've ever done. The only reason I even

can do it, is because I have no other choice. My older kids have already been

so affected by her illness and the famiy dysfunction. I so wish I could've

handled things differently back then. At least now, I am much more aware, in

raising my younger child.

Write back, and tell me how your are. Do you have contact w/your BPD? If so,

how do you handle these things day to day?

Lynn

> >>

> > Lately I've been waking up crying each morning, with this pain in my heart.

Still, I just try to be strong and be good, for my kids' sake. I often feel

completely powerless.

> >

> > Right now my MO has painted me black, and she has pulled my teenage daughter

in to her BPD drama. Dd is 17, living on her own w/bf 150 miles from home for

first time (last 3 months), and is completely enmeshed with my Mom (her

grandma). Dd has very strong BPD traits, and I fear dread this. I'm having

great difficulty dealing with the dramatic interactions between my Mom and my

dd, and how they try to suck me in (I'm usually pretty good w/my DAU, but not

w/my MOM, so I stay away as much as possible).

> >>

> > Lynn

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hello CMD:-),

Nice to meet you. I don't know your story or present situation, but all I can

say is I think it is extremely important that we learn to listen to our gut.

I've learned to validate myself, but it has taken years of hard work, and

feeling nuts. I can't remember all the BPD lingo, I'll have to freshen up, but

for instance, whenever I have an 'interaction' w/my nada that is

verbally/emotionally innappropriate/painful/abusive, you know violating personal

boundaries and laying guilt trips and blame, etc., I leave the situation so

shaken and upset (usually crying, shaking, angry, if real bad/unexpected). It

used to be that I couldn't/wouldn't even believe she truly said such and such to

me or treated me in such a way, until and unless I had a witness who verified it

for me.

This is what I learned growing up with that woman. That my feelings do not

matter. That I don't matter. She still treats me that way. She can treat

almost everyone else much better than she can me, her own daughter.

A couple of weeks ago, the last time it happened, and the last time I spoke to

her until my daughter's birthday party the other day, I told her I've wondered

my whole life why she disliked me so, and told her I've assumed I must remind

her of either my father (she divorced when I was 10) or his mother (my grandma).

Since I was 10 yrs. old she's had nothing but hatred, and condemnation for both

of these important people in my life. There's something wrong with that picture

right there. But, I was unaware for a long time, to me her illness was NORMAL,

since she raised me, and had me all to herself, and she was EXTREMELY

codependent/controlling/enmeshed with me, especilly after my younger brother

became institutionalized with SMI (schizophrenia).

I didn't mean to go on and on. I've just had not time until now, and I wanted

to write back, and catch up on some of these emails. I have a 3 week break

before the next quarter begins, so that will be nice.

I'm hoping to get support from this group through the Holidays. I seem to be

emotionally ready to deal with some of this, to process it as it happens. At

least I hope so.

I appreciate your support and your advice, it helps. I think it's good advice,

but it is very hard, the hardest thing I've ever done. The only reason I even

can do it, is because I have no other choice. My older kids have already been

so affected by her illness and the famiy dysfunction. I so wish I could've

handled things differently back then. At least now, I am much more aware, in

raising my younger child.

Write back, and tell me how your are. Do you have contact w/your BPD? If so,

how do you handle these things day to day?

Lynn

> >>

> > Lately I've been waking up crying each morning, with this pain in my heart.

Still, I just try to be strong and be good, for my kids' sake. I often feel

completely powerless.

> >

> > Right now my MO has painted me black, and she has pulled my teenage daughter

in to her BPD drama. Dd is 17, living on her own w/bf 150 miles from home for

first time (last 3 months), and is completely enmeshed with my Mom (her

grandma). Dd has very strong BPD traits, and I fear dread this. I'm having

great difficulty dealing with the dramatic interactions between my Mom and my

dd, and how they try to suck me in (I'm usually pretty good w/my DAU, but not

w/my MOM, so I stay away as much as possible).

> >>

> > Lynn

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi again,

Yes, it could be. I worry about her in particular, bc she went through such a

dramatic/intense personality change around the age of 14 (puberty), as many

girls do. while she has mellowed out a bit, it has been nearly 4 years (she's

almost 18), and she's extremely enmeshed w/my nada mother, and has learned to be

a very good manipulator and attention seeker (in unhealthy ways), I think in

response to the way nada deals with her (and everyone else, but especially dd

right now & for past couple of years). My nada uses money to manipulate and

control. My dd is obsessed with getting stuff, more and more stuff (what

teenager isn't I suppose?). At the same time, nada is extremely negative,

judgmental, detached, even denigrating, and verbally abusive. It's a sick

twisted scenario/cycle, and I don't want any part of it. It is sooooo

remiminiscent of me when I was a teenager/young adult. It literally makes me

sick (nauseous).

You could be right, I don't know. I try to stay out of it, and I am pretty good

at listening to dd and supporting her emotionally, but she seems to mostly want

to talk to me when she either a)wants something (like me to buy her stuff. I'm

EXTREMELY poor right now, on the verge of homelessness), or b)when she is so

hurt and angry by my nada's actions/words she is hyperventilating/panicking.

This happened when they were on vacation across the country. Dd called me

wanting to go home (to her bf, who she seems to be very dependent on, can't

stand to be away from for more than a day).

In fact, the last interaction w/my nada a few weeks ago that I mentioned, she

went on a 10 minute rant of denigrating my daughter (verifying all of dd's

suspicions!!!! that she didnt' like her etc.,), and escalating in her rant,

until in disbelief I stood up and told her she would not speak about my daughter

that way. Then she screamed at me to get out of her house. DD wasn't there, so

she was complaining about her in a real unhealthy way, to me, in a way that was

implying it is somehow my fault that my daughter has not turned out to her

liking. It's beyond sick.

Lynn

>

> Dear Lynn,

>

> I am not implying that it will take 10 years with your daughter. This period

is more likely a temporary, growing up thing that could be over in days or

weeks, in my own opinion. Is it possible that your daughter kind of needs to be

angry with you to take this step into independence? If so, maybe her

grandmother is the family member she feels can give her some support?

>

> +Coal Miner's Daughter

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynn,

I'm on break too, starting back in January. But I'm keeping the classes

part-time. I'v decided to stop running myself to death trying to ignore these

problems and feelings from my past. I'm also planning to start counseling

regarding my childhood. Something I'm not looking forward to or wanting to do,

but finally realize it's necessary.

I have wondered why nada is jealous of me and seems to dislike me. I have also

theorized that is it my resemblance (in intellectual style)to her ex-husband (my

father). My husband suggested that she might kind of blame me for the divorce.

It makes sense because she was preganant for me when they split up. Of course,

it was always made out that he abandoned her and unborn child. In reality, she

was throwing knives at him and making my older sister's life unbearable.

Anyway, I've got to go make dinner for the boys and hang out with husband. I

stepped in the office here for a moment and saw your post. It is nice to talk

with you. A better use of time than calling a devaluing foo member for sure.

My husband likes this board, even though he's a little jealous. He actually

said last night that he is glad I am writing/reading here but he feels bad that

he can't help me. I thought it was pretty honest of him to come out and say

that. I told him he does help me and that's why I'm as far along as I am now -

he has encouraged me for years to stand up for myself and stop taking abuse.

He's a good friend.

But he's in there teaching the 2 year-old how to run a jack in the box, so I

think I'll go help relieve him. :-) Your story really helps put things in

perspective for me. I know I am doing the right thing to subtly discourage lots

of interaction with grandnada. I think it's better not to make a big deal out

of it so it doesn't get to be a point of contention for the kids during their

rebellious moments. My theory anyway - lay low and pretend like I don't mind

one way or the other. What do you think?

Hearing about your daughter reinforces my resolve to make sure that I don't

throw my children to the wolf, so-to-speak by encouraging lots of visiting and

alone time. I wonder if I'm deluding myself, thinking I can handle a snake and

not get bit? So far, it seems I can work LC with nada successfully. Her

favorite thing is really just talking about herself anyway (NPD also), so she

doesn't seem too concerned about the grandkid thing. Reasonable visits suffice

so far. (And I'm always there to make sure they're not getting told some weirdo

crap.)

Well, that's it for now. I pray the best for your daughter. Teenage years

really are some of the hardest, so I hope things may improve somewhat with

maturity for her.

+Coal Miner's Daughter

>

> Hello CMD:-),

>

> Nice to meet you. I don't know your story or present situation, but all I can

say is I think it is extremely important that we learn to listen to our gut.

> I've learned to validate myself, but it has taken years of hard work, and

feeling nuts. I can't remember all the BPD lingo, I'll have to freshen up, but

for instance, whenever I have an 'interaction' w/my nada that is

verbally/emotionally innappropriate/painful/abusive, you know violating personal

boundaries and laying guilt trips and blame, etc., I leave the situation so

shaken and upset (usually crying, shaking, angry, if real bad/unexpected). It

used to be that I couldn't/wouldn't even believe she truly said such and such to

me or treated me in such a way, until and unless I had a witness who verified it

for me.

> This is what I learned growing up with that woman. That my feelings do not

matter. That I don't matter. She still treats me that way. She can treat

almost everyone else much better than she can me, her own daughter.

> A couple of weeks ago, the last time it happened, and the last time I spoke to

her until my daughter's birthday party the other day, I told her I've wondered

my whole life why she disliked me so, and told her I've assumed I must remind

her of either my father (she divorced when I was 10) or his mother (my grandma).

Since I was 10 yrs. old she's had nothing but hatred, and condemnation for both

of these important people in my life. There's something wrong with that picture

right there. But, I was unaware for a long time, to me her illness was NORMAL,

since she raised me, and had me all to herself, and she was EXTREMELY

codependent/controlling/enmeshed with me, especilly after my younger brother

became institutionalized with SMI (schizophrenia).

>

> I didn't mean to go on and on. I've just had not time until now, and I wanted

to write back, and catch up on some of these emails. I have a 3 week break

before the next quarter begins, so that will be nice.

> I'm hoping to get support from this group through the Holidays. I seem to be

emotionally ready to deal with some of this, to process it as it happens. At

least I hope so.

>

> I appreciate your support and your advice, it helps. I think it's good

advice, but it is very hard, the hardest thing I've ever done. The only reason

I even can do it, is because I have no other choice. My older kids have already

been so affected by her illness and the famiy dysfunction. I so wish I could've

handled things differently back then. At least now, I am much more aware, in

raising my younger child.

>

> Write back, and tell me how your are. Do you have contact w/your BPD? If so,

how do you handle these things day to day?

>

> Lynn

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynn,

I'm on break too, starting back in January. But I'm keeping the classes

part-time. I'v decided to stop running myself to death trying to ignore these

problems and feelings from my past. I'm also planning to start counseling

regarding my childhood. Something I'm not looking forward to or wanting to do,

but finally realize it's necessary.

I have wondered why nada is jealous of me and seems to dislike me. I have also

theorized that is it my resemblance (in intellectual style)to her ex-husband (my

father). My husband suggested that she might kind of blame me for the divorce.

It makes sense because she was preganant for me when they split up. Of course,

it was always made out that he abandoned her and unborn child. In reality, she

was throwing knives at him and making my older sister's life unbearable.

Anyway, I've got to go make dinner for the boys and hang out with husband. I

stepped in the office here for a moment and saw your post. It is nice to talk

with you. A better use of time than calling a devaluing foo member for sure.

My husband likes this board, even though he's a little jealous. He actually

said last night that he is glad I am writing/reading here but he feels bad that

he can't help me. I thought it was pretty honest of him to come out and say

that. I told him he does help me and that's why I'm as far along as I am now -

he has encouraged me for years to stand up for myself and stop taking abuse.

He's a good friend.

But he's in there teaching the 2 year-old how to run a jack in the box, so I

think I'll go help relieve him. :-) Your story really helps put things in

perspective for me. I know I am doing the right thing to subtly discourage lots

of interaction with grandnada. I think it's better not to make a big deal out

of it so it doesn't get to be a point of contention for the kids during their

rebellious moments. My theory anyway - lay low and pretend like I don't mind

one way or the other. What do you think?

Hearing about your daughter reinforces my resolve to make sure that I don't

throw my children to the wolf, so-to-speak by encouraging lots of visiting and

alone time. I wonder if I'm deluding myself, thinking I can handle a snake and

not get bit? So far, it seems I can work LC with nada successfully. Her

favorite thing is really just talking about herself anyway (NPD also), so she

doesn't seem too concerned about the grandkid thing. Reasonable visits suffice

so far. (And I'm always there to make sure they're not getting told some weirdo

crap.)

Well, that's it for now. I pray the best for your daughter. Teenage years

really are some of the hardest, so I hope things may improve somewhat with

maturity for her.

+Coal Miner's Daughter

>

> Hello CMD:-),

>

> Nice to meet you. I don't know your story or present situation, but all I can

say is I think it is extremely important that we learn to listen to our gut.

> I've learned to validate myself, but it has taken years of hard work, and

feeling nuts. I can't remember all the BPD lingo, I'll have to freshen up, but

for instance, whenever I have an 'interaction' w/my nada that is

verbally/emotionally innappropriate/painful/abusive, you know violating personal

boundaries and laying guilt trips and blame, etc., I leave the situation so

shaken and upset (usually crying, shaking, angry, if real bad/unexpected). It

used to be that I couldn't/wouldn't even believe she truly said such and such to

me or treated me in such a way, until and unless I had a witness who verified it

for me.

> This is what I learned growing up with that woman. That my feelings do not

matter. That I don't matter. She still treats me that way. She can treat

almost everyone else much better than she can me, her own daughter.

> A couple of weeks ago, the last time it happened, and the last time I spoke to

her until my daughter's birthday party the other day, I told her I've wondered

my whole life why she disliked me so, and told her I've assumed I must remind

her of either my father (she divorced when I was 10) or his mother (my grandma).

Since I was 10 yrs. old she's had nothing but hatred, and condemnation for both

of these important people in my life. There's something wrong with that picture

right there. But, I was unaware for a long time, to me her illness was NORMAL,

since she raised me, and had me all to herself, and she was EXTREMELY

codependent/controlling/enmeshed with me, especilly after my younger brother

became institutionalized with SMI (schizophrenia).

>

> I didn't mean to go on and on. I've just had not time until now, and I wanted

to write back, and catch up on some of these emails. I have a 3 week break

before the next quarter begins, so that will be nice.

> I'm hoping to get support from this group through the Holidays. I seem to be

emotionally ready to deal with some of this, to process it as it happens. At

least I hope so.

>

> I appreciate your support and your advice, it helps. I think it's good

advice, but it is very hard, the hardest thing I've ever done. The only reason

I even can do it, is because I have no other choice. My older kids have already

been so affected by her illness and the famiy dysfunction. I so wish I could've

handled things differently back then. At least now, I am much more aware, in

raising my younger child.

>

> Write back, and tell me how your are. Do you have contact w/your BPD? If so,

how do you handle these things day to day?

>

> Lynn

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Lynn & CMD,

Am I intruding if I join this thread? I just joined the yahoo group. Don't know

where to start. It's funny how far apart we may be in

age/background/religion/etc., but we have had such similar experiences & may

likely have developed similar perspectives on life. Even though my mother seems

a little different from each of yours, I still feel like I can relate to you.

-Gibberish

[Guest guest]

Hello Gibberish,

Absolutely not, please join in, the more the merrier :-). I just rejoined this

group after a few years. Welcome to you. Are you comfortable sharing how you

relate? It's a place to start.

Lynn

>

> Hi, Lynn & CMD,

> Am I intruding if I join this thread? I just joined the yahoo group. Don't

know where to start. It's funny how far apart we may be in

age/background/religion/etc., but we have had such similar experiences & may

likely have developed similar perspectives on life. Even though my mother seems

a little different from each of yours, I still feel like I can relate to you.

>

> -Gibberish

>

[Guest guest]

Hello Gibberish,

Absolutely not, please join in, the more the merrier :-). I just rejoined this

group after a few years. Welcome to you. Are you comfortable sharing how you

relate? It's a place to start.

Lynn

>

> Hi, Lynn & CMD,

> Am I intruding if I join this thread? I just joined the yahoo group. Don't

know where to start. It's funny how far apart we may be in

age/background/religion/etc., but we have had such similar experiences & may

likely have developed similar perspectives on life. Even though my mother seems

a little different from each of yours, I still feel like I can relate to you.

>

> -Gibberish

>

[Guest guest]

Hello Gibberish,

Absolutely not, please join in, the more the merrier :-). I just rejoined this

group after a few years. Welcome to you. Are you comfortable sharing how you

relate? It's a place to start.

Lynn

>

> Hi, Lynn & CMD,

> Am I intruding if I join this thread? I just joined the yahoo group. Don't

know where to start. It's funny how far apart we may be in

age/background/religion/etc., but we have had such similar experiences & may

likely have developed similar perspectives on life. Even though my mother seems

a little different from each of yours, I still feel like I can relate to you.

>

> -Gibberish

>