Re: Apparently, I need help

[Guest guest]

Actually, I think it might be very productive to request that you and the

psychologist who is an experienced bpd-expert have a consultation together with

your nada and her therapist. Yes, I'm suggesting doubling up on therapists, for

one meeting. The reason: you want the bpd expert to be able to assess your nada

AND her therapist and give you her opinion. Your nada's therapist could be

completely off her rocker, but it would take another therapist (or a committee

of them) to give you a valid, professional " second opinion " of what's going

on... if all parties are willing. Might be worth considering, but, only you

know your nada and how she might react to such a suggestion.

Its your call.

-Annie

>

> I just have to vent. I am trying really hard to not let all this get to me but

its starting to.

>

> Since this last blow up of my mom's her " psychologist " is really got her hook

line and sinker into the victim mentality. She is making dramatic phone calls

just to talk to my preschool-aged daughter with very dramatic " I-love-you's " on

the other end (no i love you's to me) and calling to thank me for " letting " her

speak with her granddaughter. As if that weren't enough, she is being icy cold

with no emotion or feeling and giving me the impression she can't stand me

without saying so. She went from calling 1-2 times daily several weeks ago to

not calling at all.

>

> I'm trying not to let it get to me that I feel really unloved by her right

now. I thought I had detached myself from the hurt but times like this it comes

back.

>

> I have heard through the grapevine that all her siblings as well as all her

children have told my mom that she needs to stop seeing her current " therapist "

and get another one, that it seems to be making her worse.

> My brother overheard my mom's phone conversation this morning...she was

telling someone that her therapist said " All your siblings as well as your

children have been in traumatic homes growing up. They have never gotten help

for themselves so they can't say that your therapist is not good for you. Until

they get help, they have no authority to say things like that " .

>

> That BURNED ME UP. I'm just so sick of this psychologist supposedly pitting my

mom against her family. She has all but shut all family out of her life

emotionally except for the handful of " new " friends she has that are listening

to her sob story about how terrible she is being treated by her family.

>

> I have a suspicion that this psychologist is also encouraging LC with us.

>

> There is nothing I can do.

>

> At one time when I told my mom I would agree to meet with her jointly for a

mediated session but I refused to meet with her therapist, I looked up to see if

anyone in my area specialized in BPD...there is one and her credentials are

this: M.Ed., Ed.S., CSAT - S, NCC - whatever that means. She is a licensed

professional counselor. She has extensive experience in BPD.

>

> Is it " fleas " or wrong in any way for me to do a joint session with my mom

with someone who sees BPD every day to see if she can gather a repoire with my

mom and possibly convince her to temporarily switch therapy there while we go

together? Just a thought in my head. I know that's trying to fix the situation.

Maybe that is being too involved.

>

> I'm just SO tired of the drama. Two weeks ago she was semi-functioning. The

shutting me out and acting like I'm nothing to her and that I am the ENEMY is

what hurts the most.

>

> I'm not ready to give up on my relationship with her yet.

>

[Guest guest]

Actually, I think it might be very productive to request that you and the

psychologist who is an experienced bpd-expert have a consultation together with

your nada and her therapist. Yes, I'm suggesting doubling up on therapists, for

one meeting. The reason: you want the bpd expert to be able to assess your nada

AND her therapist and give you her opinion. Your nada's therapist could be

completely off her rocker, but it would take another therapist (or a committee

of them) to give you a valid, professional " second opinion " of what's going

on... if all parties are willing. Might be worth considering, but, only you

know your nada and how she might react to such a suggestion.

Its your call.

-Annie

>

> I just have to vent. I am trying really hard to not let all this get to me but

its starting to.

>

> Since this last blow up of my mom's her " psychologist " is really got her hook

line and sinker into the victim mentality. She is making dramatic phone calls

just to talk to my preschool-aged daughter with very dramatic " I-love-you's " on

the other end (no i love you's to me) and calling to thank me for " letting " her

speak with her granddaughter. As if that weren't enough, she is being icy cold

with no emotion or feeling and giving me the impression she can't stand me

without saying so. She went from calling 1-2 times daily several weeks ago to

not calling at all.

>

> I'm trying not to let it get to me that I feel really unloved by her right

now. I thought I had detached myself from the hurt but times like this it comes

back.

>

> I have heard through the grapevine that all her siblings as well as all her

children have told my mom that she needs to stop seeing her current " therapist "

and get another one, that it seems to be making her worse.

> My brother overheard my mom's phone conversation this morning...she was

telling someone that her therapist said " All your siblings as well as your

children have been in traumatic homes growing up. They have never gotten help

for themselves so they can't say that your therapist is not good for you. Until

they get help, they have no authority to say things like that " .

>

> That BURNED ME UP. I'm just so sick of this psychologist supposedly pitting my

mom against her family. She has all but shut all family out of her life

emotionally except for the handful of " new " friends she has that are listening

to her sob story about how terrible she is being treated by her family.

>

> I have a suspicion that this psychologist is also encouraging LC with us.

>

> There is nothing I can do.

>

> At one time when I told my mom I would agree to meet with her jointly for a

mediated session but I refused to meet with her therapist, I looked up to see if

anyone in my area specialized in BPD...there is one and her credentials are

this: M.Ed., Ed.S., CSAT - S, NCC - whatever that means. She is a licensed

professional counselor. She has extensive experience in BPD.

>

> Is it " fleas " or wrong in any way for me to do a joint session with my mom

with someone who sees BPD every day to see if she can gather a repoire with my

mom and possibly convince her to temporarily switch therapy there while we go

together? Just a thought in my head. I know that's trying to fix the situation.

Maybe that is being too involved.

>

> I'm just SO tired of the drama. Two weeks ago she was semi-functioning. The

shutting me out and acting like I'm nothing to her and that I am the ENEMY is

what hurts the most.

>

> I'm not ready to give up on my relationship with her yet.

>

[Guest guest]

I d like to share something for you to consider.

I haven t read your previous posts about your mom s blow ups, so I m

coming in at the middle. However, I m assuming that she is a nada, that

is a BP.

That being the case, you should consider this: BP s lie. They

gaslight, re invent the past, hear conversations as they want them to

be, not as they are.

All these things you have heard of Nada s T, telling her she is a

victim, that her family is sicker than she is so she should ignore them,

pitting her against them, again, I m assuming that you have heard these

things only from nada, or from someone to whom nada has spoken. I

further assume that you have NOT heard any of them directly from the T.

My own nada told me at various times that her T said she didn t need to

be in therapy, her psychiatrist had another woman in the office with her

while she talked, and the woman told her she was a very wise woman, who

helped other people more than they helped her, that it was right for

her to hate her mother. I could go on with this list, but the main

point about it is that not One of these things were true.

I DID in fact meet with her T , with her, and alone, when she refused to

show up for a family therapy session. Nada very frequently told me, and

others, things her T had said that NO professional counselor would ever

say, and things that her Dr said that no Dr would ever tell a patient.

The bottom line is that she was gaslighting, and telling the story that

lined up with what she wanted to do and to believe.

I can t tell you for certain that is what your nada is doing, but just

the brief story you shared makes me highly suspicious that this is the

case. They love to say things that deflect anger or hurt feelings away

from them, because , of course, nothing is ever their fault.

My rule of thumb with a BP, is that I never, ever believe what they say

unless it is confirmed and verified by another person who is NOT a

flying monkey!

And just to help you out,

CSAT is Certified Sexual Addiction Therapist

NCC is National Certified Counselor

Just sharing some knowledge and experience with you, not trying to tell

you what to do, by any means. You have a BP in your life, it is a

tough thing.

Good luck to you.

Doug

[Guest guest]

Thank you so much Doug. That is a great thing to consider.

I'm just really struggling right now. This BPD thing is new to me (though

definitely not new for my mom) and I was raised to always be honest and I am a

very honest person. I am actually a very literal person as well.

I am struggling with how far reaching her illness really is. In my mind, for all

these years, it has appeared it was limited to me and my siblings but now I am

starting to realize it reaches far beyond that to everything in her life.

So I guess what I am trying to say is I am trying to create the " real " mom in my

head and accept reality and stop denying what has been going on all along.

I admit I have a fear of approaching her therapist for a personal consult for a

few reasons:

- She will reject the idea all together and refuse to speak to me.

- She will refuse to accept or deny that what my mom says she tells her is true

due to confidentiality/privacy laws.

- She will act like I am the " monster " my mom paints me up to be.

None of that may happen at all. I'm just feel a little vulnerable right now and

those are the things I worry about.

Thanks again for your thoughts and I really am going to spend some time

considering talking to her T. I think at the least I have grounds to say to her

T - " My mom is making claims that you are saying _____ about our family and I

would like to give you the benefit of the doubt. Knowing how manipulative my mom

is and how she always twist the words I say to villify me and victimize herself,

I'd like to know if what she claims you said is true "

Is that a good way to approach?

>

> I d like to share something for you to consider.

>

> I haven t read your previous posts about your mom s blow ups, so I m

> coming in at the middle. However, I m assuming that she is a nada, that

> is a BP.

>

> That being the case, you should consider this: BP s lie. They

> gaslight, re invent the past, hear conversations as they want them to

> be, not as they are.

>

> All these things you have heard of Nada s T, telling her she is a

> victim, that her family is sicker than she is so she should ignore them,

> pitting her against them, again, I m assuming that you have heard these

> things only from nada, or from someone to whom nada has spoken. I

> further assume that you have NOT heard any of them directly from the T.

>

> My own nada told me at various times that her T said she didn t need to

> be in therapy, her psychiatrist had another woman in the office with her

> while she talked, and the woman told her she was a very wise woman, who

> helped other people more than they helped her, that it was right for

> her to hate her mother. I could go on with this list, but the main

> point about it is that not One of these things were true.

>

> I DID in fact meet with her T , with her, and alone, when she refused to

> show up for a family therapy session. Nada very frequently told me, and

> others, things her T had said that NO professional counselor would ever

> say, and things that her Dr said that no Dr would ever tell a patient.

> The bottom line is that she was gaslighting, and telling the story that

> lined up with what she wanted to do and to believe.

>

> I can t tell you for certain that is what your nada is doing, but just

> the brief story you shared makes me highly suspicious that this is the

> case. They love to say things that deflect anger or hurt feelings away

> from them, because , of course, nothing is ever their fault.

>

> My rule of thumb with a BP, is that I never, ever believe what they say

> unless it is confirmed and verified by another person who is NOT a

> flying monkey!

>

> And just to help you out,

>

> CSAT is Certified Sexual Addiction Therapist

> NCC is National Certified Counselor

>

> Just sharing some knowledge and experience with you, not trying to tell

> you what to do, by any means. You have a BP in your life, it is a

> tough thing.

>

> Good luck to you.

>

> Doug

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you so much Doug. That is a great thing to consider.

I'm just really struggling right now. This BPD thing is new to me (though

definitely not new for my mom) and I was raised to always be honest and I am a

very honest person. I am actually a very literal person as well.

I am struggling with how far reaching her illness really is. In my mind, for all

these years, it has appeared it was limited to me and my siblings but now I am

starting to realize it reaches far beyond that to everything in her life.

So I guess what I am trying to say is I am trying to create the " real " mom in my

head and accept reality and stop denying what has been going on all along.

I admit I have a fear of approaching her therapist for a personal consult for a

few reasons:

- She will reject the idea all together and refuse to speak to me.

- She will refuse to accept or deny that what my mom says she tells her is true

due to confidentiality/privacy laws.

- She will act like I am the " monster " my mom paints me up to be.

None of that may happen at all. I'm just feel a little vulnerable right now and

those are the things I worry about.

Thanks again for your thoughts and I really am going to spend some time

considering talking to her T. I think at the least I have grounds to say to her

T - " My mom is making claims that you are saying _____ about our family and I

would like to give you the benefit of the doubt. Knowing how manipulative my mom

is and how she always twist the words I say to villify me and victimize herself,

I'd like to know if what she claims you said is true "

Is that a good way to approach?

>

> I d like to share something for you to consider.

>

> I haven t read your previous posts about your mom s blow ups, so I m

> coming in at the middle. However, I m assuming that she is a nada, that

> is a BP.

>

> That being the case, you should consider this: BP s lie. They

> gaslight, re invent the past, hear conversations as they want them to

> be, not as they are.

>

> All these things you have heard of Nada s T, telling her she is a

> victim, that her family is sicker than she is so she should ignore them,

> pitting her against them, again, I m assuming that you have heard these

> things only from nada, or from someone to whom nada has spoken. I

> further assume that you have NOT heard any of them directly from the T.

>

> My own nada told me at various times that her T said she didn t need to

> be in therapy, her psychiatrist had another woman in the office with her

> while she talked, and the woman told her she was a very wise woman, who

> helped other people more than they helped her, that it was right for

> her to hate her mother. I could go on with this list, but the main

> point about it is that not One of these things were true.

>

> I DID in fact meet with her T , with her, and alone, when she refused to

> show up for a family therapy session. Nada very frequently told me, and

> others, things her T had said that NO professional counselor would ever

> say, and things that her Dr said that no Dr would ever tell a patient.

> The bottom line is that she was gaslighting, and telling the story that

> lined up with what she wanted to do and to believe.

>

> I can t tell you for certain that is what your nada is doing, but just

> the brief story you shared makes me highly suspicious that this is the

> case. They love to say things that deflect anger or hurt feelings away

> from them, because , of course, nothing is ever their fault.

>

> My rule of thumb with a BP, is that I never, ever believe what they say

> unless it is confirmed and verified by another person who is NOT a

> flying monkey!

>

> And just to help you out,

>

> CSAT is Certified Sexual Addiction Therapist

> NCC is National Certified Counselor

>

> Just sharing some knowledge and experience with you, not trying to tell

> you what to do, by any means. You have a BP in your life, it is a

> tough thing.

>

> Good luck to you.

>

> Doug

>

[Guest guest]

My suggestion is to speak with psychologist to see what is real and what is not.

Maybe the psychologist is fake but most likely your mother doesn't tell the

truth. My nada has one family doctor, psychiatrist ( last 2 months) and one NGO

organization who help people with mental problems. I always lived in dread that

some of them would call me and accused me being selfish because I don't take

care for my " nice, poor, old " nada the way I'm " supposed " That was the reason

that I didn't have contact with them- not really. I heard a lot of stories from

nada what all this people said about her and about me.

But than one day lady from NGO organization really called me. She admitted that

at the beginning they believed her, but lately they found out the truth about

her and they asked me for help to tell them how they can make healthy

boundaries with her. They want to help her but what is too much is to

much..:-)..they have the same problems with her like I have.

It was a big relive for me. So now we make a net ( me, NGO and psychiatrist) to

call each other and check out what is a truth and what is a lie in my nada

stories. It helps a lot. And sometimes we are stunned what kind of stories nada

is capable to invent :-))

Y

> >

> > I d like to share something for you to consider.

> >

> > I haven t read your previous posts about your mom s blow ups, so I m

> > coming in at the middle. However, I m assuming that she is a nada, that

> > is a BP.

> >

> > That being the case, you should consider this: BP s lie. They

> > gaslight, re invent the past, hear conversations as they want them to

> > be, not as they are.

> >

> > All these things you have heard of Nada s T, telling her she is a

> > victim, that her family is sicker than she is so she should ignore them,

> > pitting her against them, again, I m assuming that you have heard these

> > things only from nada, or from someone to whom nada has spoken. I

> > further assume that you have NOT heard any of them directly from the T.

> >

> > My own nada told me at various times that her T said she didn t need to

> > be in therapy, her psychiatrist had another woman in the office with her

> > while she talked, and the woman told her she was a very wise woman, who

> > helped other people more than they helped her, that it was right for

> > her to hate her mother. I could go on with this list, but the main

> > point about it is that not One of these things were true.

> >

> > I DID in fact meet with her T , with her, and alone, when she refused to

> > show up for a family therapy session. Nada very frequently told me, and

> > others, things her T had said that NO professional counselor would ever

> > say, and things that her Dr said that no Dr would ever tell a patient.

> > The bottom line is that she was gaslighting, and telling the story that

> > lined up with what she wanted to do and to believe.

> >

> > I can t tell you for certain that is what your nada is doing, but just

> > the brief story you shared makes me highly suspicious that this is the

> > case. They love to say things that deflect anger or hurt feelings away

> > from them, because , of course, nothing is ever their fault.

> >

> > My rule of thumb with a BP, is that I never, ever believe what they say

> > unless it is confirmed and verified by another person who is NOT a

> > flying monkey!

> >

> > And just to help you out,

> >

> > CSAT is Certified Sexual Addiction Therapist

> > NCC is National Certified Counselor

> >

> > Just sharing some knowledge and experience with you, not trying to tell

> > you what to do, by any means. You have a BP in your life, it is a

> > tough thing.

> >

> > Good luck to you.

> >

> > Doug

> >

>

[Guest guest]

My suggestion is to speak with psychologist to see what is real and what is not.

Maybe the psychologist is fake but most likely your mother doesn't tell the

truth. My nada has one family doctor, psychiatrist ( last 2 months) and one NGO

organization who help people with mental problems. I always lived in dread that

some of them would call me and accused me being selfish because I don't take

care for my " nice, poor, old " nada the way I'm " supposed " That was the reason

that I didn't have contact with them- not really. I heard a lot of stories from

nada what all this people said about her and about me.

But than one day lady from NGO organization really called me. She admitted that

at the beginning they believed her, but lately they found out the truth about

her and they asked me for help to tell them how they can make healthy

boundaries with her. They want to help her but what is too much is to

much..:-)..they have the same problems with her like I have.

It was a big relive for me. So now we make a net ( me, NGO and psychiatrist) to

call each other and check out what is a truth and what is a lie in my nada

stories. It helps a lot. And sometimes we are stunned what kind of stories nada

is capable to invent :-))

Y

> >

> > I d like to share something for you to consider.

> >

> > I haven t read your previous posts about your mom s blow ups, so I m

> > coming in at the middle. However, I m assuming that she is a nada, that

> > is a BP.

> >

> > That being the case, you should consider this: BP s lie. They

> > gaslight, re invent the past, hear conversations as they want them to

> > be, not as they are.

> >

> > All these things you have heard of Nada s T, telling her she is a

> > victim, that her family is sicker than she is so she should ignore them,

> > pitting her against them, again, I m assuming that you have heard these

> > things only from nada, or from someone to whom nada has spoken. I

> > further assume that you have NOT heard any of them directly from the T.

> >

> > My own nada told me at various times that her T said she didn t need to

> > be in therapy, her psychiatrist had another woman in the office with her

> > while she talked, and the woman told her she was a very wise woman, who

> > helped other people more than they helped her, that it was right for

> > her to hate her mother. I could go on with this list, but the main

> > point about it is that not One of these things were true.

> >

> > I DID in fact meet with her T , with her, and alone, when she refused to

> > show up for a family therapy session. Nada very frequently told me, and

> > others, things her T had said that NO professional counselor would ever

> > say, and things that her Dr said that no Dr would ever tell a patient.

> > The bottom line is that she was gaslighting, and telling the story that

> > lined up with what she wanted to do and to believe.

> >

> > I can t tell you for certain that is what your nada is doing, but just

> > the brief story you shared makes me highly suspicious that this is the

> > case. They love to say things that deflect anger or hurt feelings away

> > from them, because , of course, nothing is ever their fault.

> >

> > My rule of thumb with a BP, is that I never, ever believe what they say

> > unless it is confirmed and verified by another person who is NOT a

> > flying monkey!

> >

> > And just to help you out,

> >

> > CSAT is Certified Sexual Addiction Therapist

> > NCC is National Certified Counselor

> >

> > Just sharing some knowledge and experience with you, not trying to tell

> > you what to do, by any means. You have a BP in your life, it is a

> > tough thing.

> >

> > Good luck to you.

> >

> > Doug

> >

>

[Guest guest]

My suggestion is to speak with psychologist to see what is real and what is not.

Maybe the psychologist is fake but most likely your mother doesn't tell the

truth. My nada has one family doctor, psychiatrist ( last 2 months) and one NGO

organization who help people with mental problems. I always lived in dread that

some of them would call me and accused me being selfish because I don't take

care for my " nice, poor, old " nada the way I'm " supposed " That was the reason

that I didn't have contact with them- not really. I heard a lot of stories from

nada what all this people said about her and about me.

But than one day lady from NGO organization really called me. She admitted that

at the beginning they believed her, but lately they found out the truth about

her and they asked me for help to tell them how they can make healthy

boundaries with her. They want to help her but what is too much is to

much..:-)..they have the same problems with her like I have.

It was a big relive for me. So now we make a net ( me, NGO and psychiatrist) to

call each other and check out what is a truth and what is a lie in my nada

stories. It helps a lot. And sometimes we are stunned what kind of stories nada

is capable to invent :-))

Y

> >

> > I d like to share something for you to consider.

> >

> > I haven t read your previous posts about your mom s blow ups, so I m

> > coming in at the middle. However, I m assuming that she is a nada, that

> > is a BP.

> >

> > That being the case, you should consider this: BP s lie. They

> > gaslight, re invent the past, hear conversations as they want them to

> > be, not as they are.

> >

> > All these things you have heard of Nada s T, telling her she is a

> > victim, that her family is sicker than she is so she should ignore them,

> > pitting her against them, again, I m assuming that you have heard these

> > things only from nada, or from someone to whom nada has spoken. I

> > further assume that you have NOT heard any of them directly from the T.

> >

> > My own nada told me at various times that her T said she didn t need to

> > be in therapy, her psychiatrist had another woman in the office with her

> > while she talked, and the woman told her she was a very wise woman, who

> > helped other people more than they helped her, that it was right for

> > her to hate her mother. I could go on with this list, but the main

> > point about it is that not One of these things were true.

> >

> > I DID in fact meet with her T , with her, and alone, when she refused to

> > show up for a family therapy session. Nada very frequently told me, and

> > others, things her T had said that NO professional counselor would ever

> > say, and things that her Dr said that no Dr would ever tell a patient.

> > The bottom line is that she was gaslighting, and telling the story that

> > lined up with what she wanted to do and to believe.

> >

> > I can t tell you for certain that is what your nada is doing, but just

> > the brief story you shared makes me highly suspicious that this is the

> > case. They love to say things that deflect anger or hurt feelings away

> > from them, because , of course, nothing is ever their fault.

> >

> > My rule of thumb with a BP, is that I never, ever believe what they say

> > unless it is confirmed and verified by another person who is NOT a

> > flying monkey!

> >

> > And just to help you out,

> >

> > CSAT is Certified Sexual Addiction Therapist

> > NCC is National Certified Counselor

> >

> > Just sharing some knowledge and experience with you, not trying to tell

> > you what to do, by any means. You have a BP in your life, it is a

> > tough thing.

> >

> > Good luck to you.

> >

> > Doug

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I wonder if they will be able to tell you though - because of hippaa

requirements. . . They might be able to say " yes " and " no " and like Doug

said things like " no decent psychologist would say that " but I doubt they

will tell you specifics. . . Just a thought.

>

>

> My suggestion is to speak with psychologist to see what is real and what is

> not. Maybe the psychologist is fake but most likely your mother doesn't tell

> the truth. My nada has one family doctor, psychiatrist ( last 2 months) and

> one NGO organization who help people with mental problems. I always lived in

> dread that some of them would call me and accused me being selfish because I

> don't take care for my " nice, poor, old " nada the way I'm " supposed " That

> was the reason that I didn't have contact with them- not really. I heard a

> lot of stories from nada what all this people said about her and about me.

>

> But than one day lady from NGO organization really called me. She admitted

> that at the beginning they believed her, but lately they found out the truth

> about her and they asked me for help to tell them how they can make healthy

> boundaries with her. They want to help her but what is too much is to

> much..:-)..they have the same problems with her like I have.

>

> It was a big relive for me. So now we make a net ( me, NGO and

> psychiatrist) to call each other and check out what is a truth and what is a

> lie in my nada stories. It helps a lot. And sometimes we are stunned what

> kind of stories nada is capable to invent :-))

>

> Y

>

>

>

> > >

> > > I d like to share something for you to consider.

> > >

> > > I haven t read your previous posts about your mom s blow ups, so I m

> > > coming in at the middle. However, I m assuming that she is a nada, that

> > > is a BP.

> > >

> > > That being the case, you should consider this: BP s lie. They

> > > gaslight, re invent the past, hear conversations as they want them to

> > > be, not as they are.

> > >

> > > All these things you have heard of Nada s T, telling her she is a

> > > victim, that her family is sicker than she is so she should ignore

> them,

> > > pitting her against them, again, I m assuming that you have heard these

> > > things only from nada, or from someone to whom nada has spoken. I

> > > further assume that you have NOT heard any of them directly from the T.

> > >

> > > My own nada told me at various times that her T said she didn t need to

> > > be in therapy, her psychiatrist had another woman in the office with

> her

> > > while she talked, and the woman told her she was a very wise woman, who

> > > helped other people more than they helped her, that it was right for

> > > her to hate her mother. I could go on with this list, but the main

> > > point about it is that not One of these things were true.

> > >

> > > I DID in fact meet with her T , with her, and alone, when she refused

> to

> > > show up for a family therapy session. Nada very frequently told me, and

> > > others, things her T had said that NO professional counselor would ever

> > > say, and things that her Dr said that no Dr would ever tell a patient.

> > > The bottom line is that she was gaslighting, and telling the story that

> > > lined up with what she wanted to do and to believe.

> > >

> > > I can t tell you for certain that is what your nada is doing, but just

> > > the brief story you shared makes me highly suspicious that this is the

> > > case. They love to say things that deflect anger or hurt feelings away

> > > from them, because , of course, nothing is ever their fault.

> > >

> > > My rule of thumb with a BP, is that I never, ever believe what they say

> > > unless it is confirmed and verified by another person who is NOT a

> > > flying monkey!

> > >

> > > And just to help you out,

> > >

> > > CSAT is Certified Sexual Addiction Therapist

> > > NCC is National Certified Counselor

> > >

> > > Just sharing some knowledge and experience with you, not trying to tell

> > > you what to do, by any means. You have a BP in your life, it is a

> > > tough thing.

> > >

> > > Good luck to you.

> > >

> > > Doug

> > >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I wonder if they will be able to tell you though - because of hippaa

requirements. . . They might be able to say " yes " and " no " and like Doug

said things like " no decent psychologist would say that " but I doubt they

will tell you specifics. . . Just a thought.

>

>

> My suggestion is to speak with psychologist to see what is real and what is

> not. Maybe the psychologist is fake but most likely your mother doesn't tell

> the truth. My nada has one family doctor, psychiatrist ( last 2 months) and

> one NGO organization who help people with mental problems. I always lived in

> dread that some of them would call me and accused me being selfish because I

> don't take care for my " nice, poor, old " nada the way I'm " supposed " That

> was the reason that I didn't have contact with them- not really. I heard a

> lot of stories from nada what all this people said about her and about me.

>

> But than one day lady from NGO organization really called me. She admitted

> that at the beginning they believed her, but lately they found out the truth

> about her and they asked me for help to tell them how they can make healthy

> boundaries with her. They want to help her but what is too much is to

> much..:-)..they have the same problems with her like I have.

>

> It was a big relive for me. So now we make a net ( me, NGO and

> psychiatrist) to call each other and check out what is a truth and what is a

> lie in my nada stories. It helps a lot. And sometimes we are stunned what

> kind of stories nada is capable to invent :-))

>

> Y

>

>

>

> > >

> > > I d like to share something for you to consider.

> > >

> > > I haven t read your previous posts about your mom s blow ups, so I m

> > > coming in at the middle. However, I m assuming that she is a nada, that

> > > is a BP.

> > >

> > > That being the case, you should consider this: BP s lie. They

> > > gaslight, re invent the past, hear conversations as they want them to

> > > be, not as they are.

> > >

> > > All these things you have heard of Nada s T, telling her she is a

> > > victim, that her family is sicker than she is so she should ignore

> them,

> > > pitting her against them, again, I m assuming that you have heard these

> > > things only from nada, or from someone to whom nada has spoken. I

> > > further assume that you have NOT heard any of them directly from the T.

> > >

> > > My own nada told me at various times that her T said she didn t need to

> > > be in therapy, her psychiatrist had another woman in the office with

> her

> > > while she talked, and the woman told her she was a very wise woman, who

> > > helped other people more than they helped her, that it was right for

> > > her to hate her mother. I could go on with this list, but the main

> > > point about it is that not One of these things were true.

> > >

> > > I DID in fact meet with her T , with her, and alone, when she refused

> to

> > > show up for a family therapy session. Nada very frequently told me, and

> > > others, things her T had said that NO professional counselor would ever

> > > say, and things that her Dr said that no Dr would ever tell a patient.

> > > The bottom line is that she was gaslighting, and telling the story that

> > > lined up with what she wanted to do and to believe.

> > >

> > > I can t tell you for certain that is what your nada is doing, but just

> > > the brief story you shared makes me highly suspicious that this is the

> > > case. They love to say things that deflect anger or hurt feelings away

> > > from them, because , of course, nothing is ever their fault.

> > >

> > > My rule of thumb with a BP, is that I never, ever believe what they say

> > > unless it is confirmed and verified by another person who is NOT a

> > > flying monkey!

> > >

> > > And just to help you out,

> > >

> > > CSAT is Certified Sexual Addiction Therapist

> > > NCC is National Certified Counselor

> > >

> > > Just sharing some knowledge and experience with you, not trying to tell

> > > you what to do, by any means. You have a BP in your life, it is a

> > > tough thing.

> > >

> > > Good luck to you.

> > >

> > > Doug

> > >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Some additional comments and responses below, interspersed with your

thoughts. Scroll down :

>

> Thank you so much Doug. That is a great thing to consider.

>

> I am struggling with how far reaching her illness really is. In my

mind, for all these years, it has appeared it was limited to me and my

siblings but now I am starting to realize it reaches far beyond that to

everything in her life.

Borderline Personality Disorder is a profound mental illness. It is one

of the very most difficult to treat, because the games they play with us

they also play with their Therapists. I would recommend doing some

reading about the disorder, starting with Stop Walking on Eggshells.

Look at the web site BPDcentral.com for a good bibliography.

> So I guess what I am trying to say is I am trying to create the " real "

mom in my head and accept reality and stop denying what has been going

on all along.

We all want a normal mom. We deny, and grieve the reality that we do

not, and for most of us, never will. It is sad, and a loss in our

lives. But once we accept that, we can begin to move along the lines of

living a safe and sane life. That will mean putting our mental health

needs and bounderies first, always. It is hard. But it is ultimately

worth it.

> I admit I have a fear of approaching her therapist for a personal

consult for a few reasons:

> - She will reject the idea all together and refuse to speak to me.

> - She will refuse to accept or deny that what my mom says she tells

her is true due to confidentiality/privacy laws.

> - She will act like I am the " monster " my mom paints me up to be.

>

> None of that may happen at all. I'm just feel a little vulnerable

right now and those are the things I worry about.

I m sorry to tell you that option A and B combine to paint the real

picture of trying to talk to your Mom s T. Ethics will dictate that she

may

A. Talk to you about YOUR issues only.

B. Not talk freely with you about your Mom s condition or treatment, or

reveal anything either of them have said, unless your Mom gives

permission. That is unlikely in the extreme.

As to whether or not she actually thinks you the mean person your Nada

presents, depends largely on whether she has picked up on her being a

BP. You must understand that to the BP, there are only Heroes, or

Villains. If you don t give in to her and pamper her ever request, you

are by default, the Villain. This is called splitting.

> Thanks again for your thoughts and I really am going to spend some

time considering talking to her T. I think at the least I have grounds

to say to her T - " My mom is making claims that you are saying _____

about our family and I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Knowing how manipulative my mom is and how she always twist the words I

say to villify me and victimize herself, I'd like to know if what she

claims you said is true "

>

> Is that a good way to approach?

Again, sadly, that Therapist is bound by ethical canons NOT to speak to

you, family member or not, absent permission of her client.

The one thing you might do, just to call Nada s bluff, is say to her,

preferably in the presence of another fairly sane family member, the

following.

Mom, I m having trouble believing that XXX, or any competent therapist,

would actually tell you the things you are saying she does. I refuse to

believe these things, or even here them from you anymore, unless you let

me confirm it.

If you ll agree to it, we will schedule a family therapy session with

your T, and I will pay for it, and it will be in addition to your

regular sessions,

( removing her arguements except for the true one, I dont want to do

it!)

and you, me, and ( whatever other family members you may want to ask)

will be there.

I ll ask you to sit and write down those things you are telling us she

says about our family relationships with you here, before we go see her,

( My aunt, who was delusional, was seeing little men who were not there.

When confronted by her daughter and husband in front of her Therapist,

she said straight faced, Why S, what are you talking about? You know

thats not true. I was talking to you, not to some little man sitting on

the edge of my bed.) and we will ask her, with your permission, to

confirm or deny that was what she said.

I ll tell you now, she will NEVER agree to this, because she won t put

herself in the position of letting anyone confront her lies. If she

did, and the T said, no, Nada, I did not say those things, I said this

instead, she will use the same FOGGY language she always uses to avoid

it, or she ll just get mad and sullen and clam up.

You are fighting the same wishful thinking we all go thru for a time. If

only I can FORCE her to see herself truly, I can get her to act right.

I m sorry, but no you can t. It is like trying to get an anorexic girl

to eat. They won t do it.

All you can do, is present her with the choice to confirm it, and

involve her family in therapy. When she refuses, you should set

bounderies for your mental health.

I will no longer listen to or discuss this with you. Period.

It is not about making her heal. You don t get to choose that. You may

choose for YOU to heal.

I hope you do.

Doug

[Guest guest]

Some additional comments and responses below, interspersed with your

thoughts. Scroll down :

>

> Thank you so much Doug. That is a great thing to consider.

>

> I am struggling with how far reaching her illness really is. In my

mind, for all these years, it has appeared it was limited to me and my

siblings but now I am starting to realize it reaches far beyond that to

everything in her life.

Borderline Personality Disorder is a profound mental illness. It is one

of the very most difficult to treat, because the games they play with us

they also play with their Therapists. I would recommend doing some

reading about the disorder, starting with Stop Walking on Eggshells.

Look at the web site BPDcentral.com for a good bibliography.

> So I guess what I am trying to say is I am trying to create the " real "

mom in my head and accept reality and stop denying what has been going

on all along.

We all want a normal mom. We deny, and grieve the reality that we do

not, and for most of us, never will. It is sad, and a loss in our

lives. But once we accept that, we can begin to move along the lines of

living a safe and sane life. That will mean putting our mental health

needs and bounderies first, always. It is hard. But it is ultimately

worth it.

> I admit I have a fear of approaching her therapist for a personal

consult for a few reasons:

> - She will reject the idea all together and refuse to speak to me.

> - She will refuse to accept or deny that what my mom says she tells

her is true due to confidentiality/privacy laws.

> - She will act like I am the " monster " my mom paints me up to be.

>

> None of that may happen at all. I'm just feel a little vulnerable

right now and those are the things I worry about.

I m sorry to tell you that option A and B combine to paint the real

picture of trying to talk to your Mom s T. Ethics will dictate that she

may

A. Talk to you about YOUR issues only.

B. Not talk freely with you about your Mom s condition or treatment, or

reveal anything either of them have said, unless your Mom gives

permission. That is unlikely in the extreme.

As to whether or not she actually thinks you the mean person your Nada

presents, depends largely on whether she has picked up on her being a

BP. You must understand that to the BP, there are only Heroes, or

Villains. If you don t give in to her and pamper her ever request, you

are by default, the Villain. This is called splitting.

> Thanks again for your thoughts and I really am going to spend some

time considering talking to her T. I think at the least I have grounds

to say to her T - " My mom is making claims that you are saying _____

about our family and I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Knowing how manipulative my mom is and how she always twist the words I

say to villify me and victimize herself, I'd like to know if what she

claims you said is true "

>

> Is that a good way to approach?

Again, sadly, that Therapist is bound by ethical canons NOT to speak to

you, family member or not, absent permission of her client.

The one thing you might do, just to call Nada s bluff, is say to her,

preferably in the presence of another fairly sane family member, the

following.

Mom, I m having trouble believing that XXX, or any competent therapist,

would actually tell you the things you are saying she does. I refuse to

believe these things, or even here them from you anymore, unless you let

me confirm it.

If you ll agree to it, we will schedule a family therapy session with

your T, and I will pay for it, and it will be in addition to your

regular sessions,

( removing her arguements except for the true one, I dont want to do

it!)

and you, me, and ( whatever other family members you may want to ask)

will be there.

I ll ask you to sit and write down those things you are telling us she

says about our family relationships with you here, before we go see her,

( My aunt, who was delusional, was seeing little men who were not there.

When confronted by her daughter and husband in front of her Therapist,

she said straight faced, Why S, what are you talking about? You know

thats not true. I was talking to you, not to some little man sitting on

the edge of my bed.) and we will ask her, with your permission, to

confirm or deny that was what she said.

I ll tell you now, she will NEVER agree to this, because she won t put

herself in the position of letting anyone confront her lies. If she

did, and the T said, no, Nada, I did not say those things, I said this

instead, she will use the same FOGGY language she always uses to avoid

it, or she ll just get mad and sullen and clam up.

You are fighting the same wishful thinking we all go thru for a time. If

only I can FORCE her to see herself truly, I can get her to act right.

I m sorry, but no you can t. It is like trying to get an anorexic girl

to eat. They won t do it.

All you can do, is present her with the choice to confirm it, and

involve her family in therapy. When she refuses, you should set

bounderies for your mental health.

I will no longer listen to or discuss this with you. Period.

It is not about making her heal. You don t get to choose that. You may

choose for YOU to heal.

I hope you do.

Doug

[Guest guest]

Some additional comments and responses below, interspersed with your

thoughts. Scroll down :

>

> Thank you so much Doug. That is a great thing to consider.

>

> I am struggling with how far reaching her illness really is. In my

mind, for all these years, it has appeared it was limited to me and my

siblings but now I am starting to realize it reaches far beyond that to

everything in her life.

Borderline Personality Disorder is a profound mental illness. It is one

of the very most difficult to treat, because the games they play with us

they also play with their Therapists. I would recommend doing some

reading about the disorder, starting with Stop Walking on Eggshells.

Look at the web site BPDcentral.com for a good bibliography.

> So I guess what I am trying to say is I am trying to create the " real "

mom in my head and accept reality and stop denying what has been going

on all along.

We all want a normal mom. We deny, and grieve the reality that we do

not, and for most of us, never will. It is sad, and a loss in our

lives. But once we accept that, we can begin to move along the lines of

living a safe and sane life. That will mean putting our mental health

needs and bounderies first, always. It is hard. But it is ultimately

worth it.

> I admit I have a fear of approaching her therapist for a personal

consult for a few reasons:

> - She will reject the idea all together and refuse to speak to me.

> - She will refuse to accept or deny that what my mom says she tells

her is true due to confidentiality/privacy laws.

> - She will act like I am the " monster " my mom paints me up to be.

>

> None of that may happen at all. I'm just feel a little vulnerable

right now and those are the things I worry about.

I m sorry to tell you that option A and B combine to paint the real

picture of trying to talk to your Mom s T. Ethics will dictate that she

may

A. Talk to you about YOUR issues only.

B. Not talk freely with you about your Mom s condition or treatment, or

reveal anything either of them have said, unless your Mom gives

permission. That is unlikely in the extreme.

As to whether or not she actually thinks you the mean person your Nada

presents, depends largely on whether she has picked up on her being a

BP. You must understand that to the BP, there are only Heroes, or

Villains. If you don t give in to her and pamper her ever request, you

are by default, the Villain. This is called splitting.

> Thanks again for your thoughts and I really am going to spend some

time considering talking to her T. I think at the least I have grounds

to say to her T - " My mom is making claims that you are saying _____

about our family and I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Knowing how manipulative my mom is and how she always twist the words I

say to villify me and victimize herself, I'd like to know if what she

claims you said is true "

>

> Is that a good way to approach?

Again, sadly, that Therapist is bound by ethical canons NOT to speak to

you, family member or not, absent permission of her client.

The one thing you might do, just to call Nada s bluff, is say to her,

preferably in the presence of another fairly sane family member, the

following.

Mom, I m having trouble believing that XXX, or any competent therapist,

would actually tell you the things you are saying she does. I refuse to

believe these things, or even here them from you anymore, unless you let

me confirm it.

If you ll agree to it, we will schedule a family therapy session with

your T, and I will pay for it, and it will be in addition to your

regular sessions,

( removing her arguements except for the true one, I dont want to do

it!)

and you, me, and ( whatever other family members you may want to ask)

will be there.

I ll ask you to sit and write down those things you are telling us she

says about our family relationships with you here, before we go see her,

( My aunt, who was delusional, was seeing little men who were not there.

When confronted by her daughter and husband in front of her Therapist,

she said straight faced, Why S, what are you talking about? You know

thats not true. I was talking to you, not to some little man sitting on

the edge of my bed.) and we will ask her, with your permission, to

confirm or deny that was what she said.

I ll tell you now, she will NEVER agree to this, because she won t put

herself in the position of letting anyone confront her lies. If she

did, and the T said, no, Nada, I did not say those things, I said this

instead, she will use the same FOGGY language she always uses to avoid

it, or she ll just get mad and sullen and clam up.

You are fighting the same wishful thinking we all go thru for a time. If

only I can FORCE her to see herself truly, I can get her to act right.

I m sorry, but no you can t. It is like trying to get an anorexic girl

to eat. They won t do it.

All you can do, is present her with the choice to confirm it, and

involve her family in therapy. When she refuses, you should set

bounderies for your mental health.

I will no longer listen to or discuss this with you. Period.

It is not about making her heal. You don t get to choose that. You may

choose for YOU to heal.

I hope you do.

Doug

[Guest guest]

Thanks everyone for the thoughts that were given.

I am an RN by profession so the suggestion to confirm with the therapist in a

session by myself whether my mom's claims are true or not immediately struck me

as a violation of privacy.

Doug are YOU a therapist?? haha - you always have such well laid thoughts! Thank

you, truly.

You are right, I can't force her to heal. Its something I must come to terms

with. That really made me think.

Your suggestion to confront my mom with a (sane) witness and ask her to write

down all the things her T has said about our family so that we may confirm them

in a family session with her is GREAT!!! And I don't think she will do it, lol.

My brother had mentioned confronting her T after the T supposedly advised my mom

to " ban " both her sons from her premises and my mom almost taunted him to " go

ahead and do it, that's fine with me " . But I think if she were asked to write

down what her T said and THEN be confronted with it all together, face to face,

that would be another situation entirely!

My mom does not view herself as a " liar " . She presents herself as a very honest

person. And her lies are mostly embellishments and exaggerations of the truth.

Growing up, something like rolling my eyes at her was presented to my dad at the

end of the day as " rebellious defiant behavior all day long that was

uncontrollable " , all told with theatrical behavior while my mom cried in

hysterics....dad would blow up and inappropriate discipline would ensue. The

next day she would apologetically present my dad as an abuser to us and I was

left feeling confused - was she on my side or not? UGH!!! I thought I had come

to terms with my family dynamic but its all coming back to me in a different

light now and I must try to sort through it all again.

Thank you again Doug and everyone with these great thoughts and suggestions.

Blessings.

> >

> > Thank you so much Doug. That is a great thing to consider.

> >

>

>

> > I am struggling with how far reaching her illness really is. In my

> mind, for all these years, it has appeared it was limited to me and my

> siblings but now I am starting to realize it reaches far beyond that to

> everything in her life.

>

>

> Borderline Personality Disorder is a profound mental illness. It is one

> of the very most difficult to treat, because the games they play with us

> they also play with their Therapists. I would recommend doing some

> reading about the disorder, starting with Stop Walking on Eggshells.

> Look at the web site BPDcentral.com for a good bibliography.

>

>

> > So I guess what I am trying to say is I am trying to create the " real "

> mom in my head and accept reality and stop denying what has been going

> on all along.

>

> We all want a normal mom. We deny, and grieve the reality that we do

> not, and for most of us, never will. It is sad, and a loss in our

> lives. But once we accept that, we can begin to move along the lines of

> living a safe and sane life. That will mean putting our mental health

> needs and bounderies first, always. It is hard. But it is ultimately

> worth it.

>

>

> > I admit I have a fear of approaching her therapist for a personal

> consult for a few reasons:

> > - She will reject the idea all together and refuse to speak to me.

> > - She will refuse to accept or deny that what my mom says she tells

> her is true due to confidentiality/privacy laws.

> > - She will act like I am the " monster " my mom paints me up to be.

> >

> > None of that may happen at all. I'm just feel a little vulnerable

> right now and those are the things I worry about.

>

>

> I m sorry to tell you that option A and B combine to paint the real

> picture of trying to talk to your Mom s T. Ethics will dictate that she

> may

>

> A. Talk to you about YOUR issues only.

> B. Not talk freely with you about your Mom s condition or treatment, or

> reveal anything either of them have said, unless your Mom gives

> permission. That is unlikely in the extreme.

>

> As to whether or not she actually thinks you the mean person your Nada

> presents, depends largely on whether she has picked up on her being a

> BP. You must understand that to the BP, there are only Heroes, or

> Villains. If you don t give in to her and pamper her ever request, you

> are by default, the Villain. This is called splitting.

>

>

> > Thanks again for your thoughts and I really am going to spend some

> time considering talking to her T. I think at the least I have grounds

> to say to her T - " My mom is making claims that you are saying _____

> about our family and I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt.

> Knowing how manipulative my mom is and how she always twist the words I

> say to villify me and victimize herself, I'd like to know if what she

> claims you said is true "

> >

> > Is that a good way to approach?

>

>

> Again, sadly, that Therapist is bound by ethical canons NOT to speak to

> you, family member or not, absent permission of her client.

>

> The one thing you might do, just to call Nada s bluff, is say to her,

> preferably in the presence of another fairly sane family member, the

> following.

>

> Mom, I m having trouble believing that XXX, or any competent therapist,

> would actually tell you the things you are saying she does. I refuse to

> believe these things, or even here them from you anymore, unless you let

> me confirm it.

>

> If you ll agree to it, we will schedule a family therapy session with

> your T, and I will pay for it, and it will be in addition to your

> regular sessions,

>

> ( removing her arguements except for the true one, I dont want to do

> it!)

>

> and you, me, and ( whatever other family members you may want to ask)

> will be there.

>

> I ll ask you to sit and write down those things you are telling us she

> says about our family relationships with you here, before we go see her,

> ( My aunt, who was delusional, was seeing little men who were not there.

> When confronted by her daughter and husband in front of her Therapist,

> she said straight faced, Why S, what are you talking about? You know

> thats not true. I was talking to you, not to some little man sitting on

> the edge of my bed.) and we will ask her, with your permission, to

> confirm or deny that was what she said.

>

> I ll tell you now, she will NEVER agree to this, because she won t put

> herself in the position of letting anyone confront her lies. If she

> did, and the T said, no, Nada, I did not say those things, I said this

> instead, she will use the same FOGGY language she always uses to avoid

> it, or she ll just get mad and sullen and clam up.

>

> You are fighting the same wishful thinking we all go thru for a time. If

> only I can FORCE her to see herself truly, I can get her to act right.

>

> I m sorry, but no you can t. It is like trying to get an anorexic girl

> to eat. They won t do it.

>

> All you can do, is present her with the choice to confirm it, and

> involve her family in therapy. When she refuses, you should set

> bounderies for your mental health.

>

> I will no longer listen to or discuss this with you. Period.

>

> It is not about making her heal. You don t get to choose that. You may

> choose for YOU to heal.

>

> I hope you do.

>

> Doug

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks everyone for the thoughts that were given.

I am an RN by profession so the suggestion to confirm with the therapist in a

session by myself whether my mom's claims are true or not immediately struck me

as a violation of privacy.

Doug are YOU a therapist?? haha - you always have such well laid thoughts! Thank

you, truly.

You are right, I can't force her to heal. Its something I must come to terms

with. That really made me think.

Your suggestion to confront my mom with a (sane) witness and ask her to write

down all the things her T has said about our family so that we may confirm them

in a family session with her is GREAT!!! And I don't think she will do it, lol.

My brother had mentioned confronting her T after the T supposedly advised my mom

to " ban " both her sons from her premises and my mom almost taunted him to " go

ahead and do it, that's fine with me " . But I think if she were asked to write

down what her T said and THEN be confronted with it all together, face to face,

that would be another situation entirely!

My mom does not view herself as a " liar " . She presents herself as a very honest

person. And her lies are mostly embellishments and exaggerations of the truth.

Growing up, something like rolling my eyes at her was presented to my dad at the

end of the day as " rebellious defiant behavior all day long that was

uncontrollable " , all told with theatrical behavior while my mom cried in

hysterics....dad would blow up and inappropriate discipline would ensue. The

next day she would apologetically present my dad as an abuser to us and I was

left feeling confused - was she on my side or not? UGH!!! I thought I had come

to terms with my family dynamic but its all coming back to me in a different

light now and I must try to sort through it all again.

Thank you again Doug and everyone with these great thoughts and suggestions.

Blessings.

> >

> > Thank you so much Doug. That is a great thing to consider.

> >

>

>

> > I am struggling with how far reaching her illness really is. In my

> mind, for all these years, it has appeared it was limited to me and my

> siblings but now I am starting to realize it reaches far beyond that to

> everything in her life.

>

>

> Borderline Personality Disorder is a profound mental illness. It is one

> of the very most difficult to treat, because the games they play with us

> they also play with their Therapists. I would recommend doing some

> reading about the disorder, starting with Stop Walking on Eggshells.

> Look at the web site BPDcentral.com for a good bibliography.

>

>

> > So I guess what I am trying to say is I am trying to create the " real "

> mom in my head and accept reality and stop denying what has been going

> on all along.

>

> We all want a normal mom. We deny, and grieve the reality that we do

> not, and for most of us, never will. It is sad, and a loss in our

> lives. But once we accept that, we can begin to move along the lines of

> living a safe and sane life. That will mean putting our mental health

> needs and bounderies first, always. It is hard. But it is ultimately

> worth it.

>

>

> > I admit I have a fear of approaching her therapist for a personal

> consult for a few reasons:

> > - She will reject the idea all together and refuse to speak to me.

> > - She will refuse to accept or deny that what my mom says she tells

> her is true due to confidentiality/privacy laws.

> > - She will act like I am the " monster " my mom paints me up to be.

> >

> > None of that may happen at all. I'm just feel a little vulnerable

> right now and those are the things I worry about.

>

>

> I m sorry to tell you that option A and B combine to paint the real

> picture of trying to talk to your Mom s T. Ethics will dictate that she

> may

>

> A. Talk to you about YOUR issues only.

> B. Not talk freely with you about your Mom s condition or treatment, or

> reveal anything either of them have said, unless your Mom gives

> permission. That is unlikely in the extreme.

>

> As to whether or not she actually thinks you the mean person your Nada

> presents, depends largely on whether she has picked up on her being a

> BP. You must understand that to the BP, there are only Heroes, or

> Villains. If you don t give in to her and pamper her ever request, you

> are by default, the Villain. This is called splitting.

>

>

> > Thanks again for your thoughts and I really am going to spend some

> time considering talking to her T. I think at the least I have grounds

> to say to her T - " My mom is making claims that you are saying _____

> about our family and I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt.

> Knowing how manipulative my mom is and how she always twist the words I

> say to villify me and victimize herself, I'd like to know if what she

> claims you said is true "

> >

> > Is that a good way to approach?

>

>

> Again, sadly, that Therapist is bound by ethical canons NOT to speak to

> you, family member or not, absent permission of her client.

>

> The one thing you might do, just to call Nada s bluff, is say to her,

> preferably in the presence of another fairly sane family member, the

> following.

>

> Mom, I m having trouble believing that XXX, or any competent therapist,

> would actually tell you the things you are saying she does. I refuse to

> believe these things, or even here them from you anymore, unless you let

> me confirm it.

>

> If you ll agree to it, we will schedule a family therapy session with

> your T, and I will pay for it, and it will be in addition to your

> regular sessions,

>

> ( removing her arguements except for the true one, I dont want to do

> it!)

>

> and you, me, and ( whatever other family members you may want to ask)

> will be there.

>

> I ll ask you to sit and write down those things you are telling us she

> says about our family relationships with you here, before we go see her,

> ( My aunt, who was delusional, was seeing little men who were not there.

> When confronted by her daughter and husband in front of her Therapist,

> she said straight faced, Why S, what are you talking about? You know

> thats not true. I was talking to you, not to some little man sitting on

> the edge of my bed.) and we will ask her, with your permission, to

> confirm or deny that was what she said.

>

> I ll tell you now, she will NEVER agree to this, because she won t put

> herself in the position of letting anyone confront her lies. If she

> did, and the T said, no, Nada, I did not say those things, I said this

> instead, she will use the same FOGGY language she always uses to avoid

> it, or she ll just get mad and sullen and clam up.

>

> You are fighting the same wishful thinking we all go thru for a time. If

> only I can FORCE her to see herself truly, I can get her to act right.

>

> I m sorry, but no you can t. It is like trying to get an anorexic girl

> to eat. They won t do it.

>

> All you can do, is present her with the choice to confirm it, and

> involve her family in therapy. When she refuses, you should set

> bounderies for your mental health.

>

> I will no longer listen to or discuss this with you. Period.

>

> It is not about making her heal. You don t get to choose that. You may

> choose for YOU to heal.

>

> I hope you do.

>

> Doug

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

....my dad would blow up and inappropriate discipline would ensue. The

next day she would apologetically present my dad as an abuser to us and I was

left feeling confused - was she on my side or not? UGH!!! I..

It sound so familiar to me. Plus - my dad was abuser too and he treated nada

very badly - a lot of really ugly verbal abuses . Like a child I wanted to

protect her and I went into ugly fights with him to treat her better. He was so

dominant that nobody else didn't have a courage to tell him anything. So he

shifted his anger and contempt on me - and nada saw the opportunity to come

closer to him to gain his approval and she joined him. At the end they both were

screaming on me how ugly , horrible person I was because I fought for my nada

rights.??!! I felt so betrayed and it didn't happened just once, because the

next day she cried on my shoulder how horible my fada treated her.

I too have to remember my past one more time with the knowledge I have now. And

sometimes I'm quite shocked how obiously I accepted totally weird or abusive

behaviour like something completely normal at that time.

Y

> > >

> > > Thank you so much Doug. That is a great thing to consider.

> > >

> >

> >

> > > I am struggling with how far reaching her illness really is. In my

> > mind, for all these years, it has appeared it was limited to me and my

> > siblings but now I am starting to realize it reaches far beyond that to

> > everything in her life.

> >

> >

> > Borderline Personality Disorder is a profound mental illness. It is one

> > of the very most difficult to treat, because the games they play with us

> > they also play with their Therapists. I would recommend doing some

> > reading about the disorder, starting with Stop Walking on Eggshells.

> > Look at the web site BPDcentral.com for a good bibliography.

> >

> >

> > > So I guess what I am trying to say is I am trying to create the " real "

> > mom in my head and accept reality and stop denying what has been going

> > on all along.

> >

> > We all want a normal mom. We deny, and grieve the reality that we do

> > not, and for most of us, never will. It is sad, and a loss in our

> > lives. But once we accept that, we can begin to move along the lines of

> > living a safe and sane life. That will mean putting our mental health

> > needs and bounderies first, always. It is hard. But it is ultimately

> > worth it.

> >

> >

> > > I admit I have a fear of approaching her therapist for a personal

> > consult for a few reasons:

> > > - She will reject the idea all together and refuse to speak to me.

> > > - She will refuse to accept or deny that what my mom says she tells

> > her is true due to confidentiality/privacy laws.

> > > - She will act like I am the " monster " my mom paints me up to be.

> > >

> > > None of that may happen at all. I'm just feel a little vulnerable

> > right now and those are the things I worry about.

> >

> >

> > I m sorry to tell you that option A and B combine to paint the real

> > picture of trying to talk to your Mom s T. Ethics will dictate that she

> > may

> >

> > A. Talk to you about YOUR issues only.

> > B. Not talk freely with you about your Mom s condition or treatment, or

> > reveal anything either of them have said, unless your Mom gives

> > permission. That is unlikely in the extreme.

> >

> > As to whether or not she actually thinks you the mean person your Nada

> > presents, depends largely on whether she has picked up on her being a

> > BP. You must understand that to the BP, there are only Heroes, or

> > Villains. If you don t give in to her and pamper her ever request, you

> > are by default, the Villain. This is called splitting.

> >

> >

> > > Thanks again for your thoughts and I really am going to spend some

> > time considering talking to her T. I think at the least I have grounds

> > to say to her T - " My mom is making claims that you are saying _____

> > about our family and I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt.

> > Knowing how manipulative my mom is and how she always twist the words I

> > say to villify me and victimize herself, I'd like to know if what she

> > claims you said is true "

> > >

> > > Is that a good way to approach?

> >

> >

> > Again, sadly, that Therapist is bound by ethical canons NOT to speak to

> > you, family member or not, absent permission of her client.

> >

> > The one thing you might do, just to call Nada s bluff, is say to her,

> > preferably in the presence of another fairly sane family member, the

> > following.

> >

> > Mom, I m having trouble believing that XXX, or any competent therapist,

> > would actually tell you the things you are saying she does. I refuse to

> > believe these things, or even here them from you anymore, unless you let

> > me confirm it.

> >

> > If you ll agree to it, we will schedule a family therapy session with

> > your T, and I will pay for it, and it will be in addition to your

> > regular sessions,

> >

> > ( removing her arguements except for the true one, I dont want to do

> > it!)

> >

> > and you, me, and ( whatever other family members you may want to ask)

> > will be there.

> >

> > I ll ask you to sit and write down those things you are telling us she

> > says about our family relationships with you here, before we go see her,

> > ( My aunt, who was delusional, was seeing little men who were not there.

> > When confronted by her daughter and husband in front of her Therapist,

> > she said straight faced, Why S, what are you talking about? You know

> > thats not true. I was talking to you, not to some little man sitting on

> > the edge of my bed.) and we will ask her, with your permission, to

> > confirm or deny that was what she said.

> >

> > I ll tell you now, she will NEVER agree to this, because she won t put

> > herself in the position of letting anyone confront her lies. If she

> > did, and the T said, no, Nada, I did not say those things, I said this

> > instead, she will use the same FOGGY language she always uses to avoid

> > it, or she ll just get mad and sullen and clam up.

> >

> > You are fighting the same wishful thinking we all go thru for a time. If

> > only I can FORCE her to see herself truly, I can get her to act right.

> >

> > I m sorry, but no you can t. It is like trying to get an anorexic girl

> > to eat. They won t do it.

> >

> > All you can do, is present her with the choice to confirm it, and

> > involve her family in therapy. When she refuses, you should set

> > bounderies for your mental health.

> >

> > I will no longer listen to or discuss this with you. Period.

> >

> > It is not about making her heal. You don t get to choose that. You may

> > choose for YOU to heal.

> >

> > I hope you do.

> >

> > Doug

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

....my dad would blow up and inappropriate discipline would ensue. The

next day she would apologetically present my dad as an abuser to us and I was

left feeling confused - was she on my side or not? UGH!!! I..

It sound so familiar to me. Plus - my dad was abuser too and he treated nada

very badly - a lot of really ugly verbal abuses . Like a child I wanted to

protect her and I went into ugly fights with him to treat her better. He was so

dominant that nobody else didn't have a courage to tell him anything. So he

shifted his anger and contempt on me - and nada saw the opportunity to come

closer to him to gain his approval and she joined him. At the end they both were

screaming on me how ugly , horrible person I was because I fought for my nada

rights.??!! I felt so betrayed and it didn't happened just once, because the

next day she cried on my shoulder how horible my fada treated her.

I too have to remember my past one more time with the knowledge I have now. And

sometimes I'm quite shocked how obiously I accepted totally weird or abusive

behaviour like something completely normal at that time.

Y

> > >

> > > Thank you so much Doug. That is a great thing to consider.

> > >

> >

> >

> > > I am struggling with how far reaching her illness really is. In my

> > mind, for all these years, it has appeared it was limited to me and my

> > siblings but now I am starting to realize it reaches far beyond that to

> > everything in her life.

> >

> >

> > Borderline Personality Disorder is a profound mental illness. It is one

> > of the very most difficult to treat, because the games they play with us

> > they also play with their Therapists. I would recommend doing some

> > reading about the disorder, starting with Stop Walking on Eggshells.

> > Look at the web site BPDcentral.com for a good bibliography.

> >

> >

> > > So I guess what I am trying to say is I am trying to create the " real "

> > mom in my head and accept reality and stop denying what has been going

> > on all along.

> >

> > We all want a normal mom. We deny, and grieve the reality that we do

> > not, and for most of us, never will. It is sad, and a loss in our

> > lives. But once we accept that, we can begin to move along the lines of

> > living a safe and sane life. That will mean putting our mental health

> > needs and bounderies first, always. It is hard. But it is ultimately

> > worth it.

> >

> >

> > > I admit I have a fear of approaching her therapist for a personal

> > consult for a few reasons:

> > > - She will reject the idea all together and refuse to speak to me.

> > > - She will refuse to accept or deny that what my mom says she tells

> > her is true due to confidentiality/privacy laws.

> > > - She will act like I am the " monster " my mom paints me up to be.

> > >

> > > None of that may happen at all. I'm just feel a little vulnerable

> > right now and those are the things I worry about.

> >

> >

> > I m sorry to tell you that option A and B combine to paint the real

> > picture of trying to talk to your Mom s T. Ethics will dictate that she

> > may

> >

> > A. Talk to you about YOUR issues only.

> > B. Not talk freely with you about your Mom s condition or treatment, or

> > reveal anything either of them have said, unless your Mom gives

> > permission. That is unlikely in the extreme.

> >

> > As to whether or not she actually thinks you the mean person your Nada

> > presents, depends largely on whether she has picked up on her being a

> > BP. You must understand that to the BP, there are only Heroes, or

> > Villains. If you don t give in to her and pamper her ever request, you

> > are by default, the Villain. This is called splitting.

> >

> >

> > > Thanks again for your thoughts and I really am going to spend some

> > time considering talking to her T. I think at the least I have grounds

> > to say to her T - " My mom is making claims that you are saying _____

> > about our family and I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt.

> > Knowing how manipulative my mom is and how she always twist the words I

> > say to villify me and victimize herself, I'd like to know if what she

> > claims you said is true "

> > >

> > > Is that a good way to approach?

> >

> >

> > Again, sadly, that Therapist is bound by ethical canons NOT to speak to

> > you, family member or not, absent permission of her client.

> >

> > The one thing you might do, just to call Nada s bluff, is say to her,

> > preferably in the presence of another fairly sane family member, the

> > following.

> >

> > Mom, I m having trouble believing that XXX, or any competent therapist,

> > would actually tell you the things you are saying she does. I refuse to

> > believe these things, or even here them from you anymore, unless you let

> > me confirm it.

> >

> > If you ll agree to it, we will schedule a family therapy session with

> > your T, and I will pay for it, and it will be in addition to your

> > regular sessions,

> >

> > ( removing her arguements except for the true one, I dont want to do

> > it!)

> >

> > and you, me, and ( whatever other family members you may want to ask)

> > will be there.

> >

> > I ll ask you to sit and write down those things you are telling us she

> > says about our family relationships with you here, before we go see her,

> > ( My aunt, who was delusional, was seeing little men who were not there.

> > When confronted by her daughter and husband in front of her Therapist,

> > she said straight faced, Why S, what are you talking about? You know

> > thats not true. I was talking to you, not to some little man sitting on

> > the edge of my bed.) and we will ask her, with your permission, to

> > confirm or deny that was what she said.

> >

> > I ll tell you now, she will NEVER agree to this, because she won t put

> > herself in the position of letting anyone confront her lies. If she

> > did, and the T said, no, Nada, I did not say those things, I said this

> > instead, she will use the same FOGGY language she always uses to avoid

> > it, or she ll just get mad and sullen and clam up.

> >

> > You are fighting the same wishful thinking we all go thru for a time. If

> > only I can FORCE her to see herself truly, I can get her to act right.

> >

> > I m sorry, but no you can t. It is like trying to get an anorexic girl

> > to eat. They won t do it.

> >

> > All you can do, is present her with the choice to confirm it, and

> > involve her family in therapy. When she refuses, you should set

> > bounderies for your mental health.

> >

> > I will no longer listen to or discuss this with you. Period.

> >

> > It is not about making her heal. You don t get to choose that. You may

> > choose for YOU to heal.

> >

> > I hope you do.

> >

> > Doug

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Apparently, we all need help. But then, that's why we're here, right? :-)

Interesting thread.

This is a profound point about BPD that you bring up. Anyone dealing with a BPD

person who lies and considers themselves a liar? The funniest thing about my

nada is that one of her favorite speeches is the one about what an honorable,

honest person she is. She lies and exaggerates constantly to the point that sis

and I have taken up the habit of phone call confirmation on important issues.

Otherwise, we both assume most of what nada says is a lie or at least heavily

filtered through her own eyes. Oh, the fights she started between us before we

realized what was going on! And some of that damage can never be completely

undone, know what I mean?

Anyway, I think it is particularly interesting how people with BPD twist the

truth and simultaneously consider themselves the most honest people on the

planet. Oh, the irony.

+Coal Miner's Daughter

>> My mom does not view herself as a " liar " . She presents herself as a very

honest person. And her lies are mostly embellishments and exaggerations of the

truth.

>

[Guest guest]

Apparently, we all need help. But then, that's why we're here, right? :-)

Interesting thread.

This is a profound point about BPD that you bring up. Anyone dealing with a BPD

person who lies and considers themselves a liar? The funniest thing about my

nada is that one of her favorite speeches is the one about what an honorable,

honest person she is. She lies and exaggerates constantly to the point that sis

and I have taken up the habit of phone call confirmation on important issues.

Otherwise, we both assume most of what nada says is a lie or at least heavily

filtered through her own eyes. Oh, the fights she started between us before we

realized what was going on! And some of that damage can never be completely

undone, know what I mean?

Anyway, I think it is particularly interesting how people with BPD twist the

truth and simultaneously consider themselves the most honest people on the

planet. Oh, the irony.

+Coal Miner's Daughter

>> My mom does not view herself as a " liar " . She presents herself as a very

honest person. And her lies are mostly embellishments and exaggerations of the

truth.

>

[Guest guest]

big_sister_03: Hi. Just thought I'd throw my two cents in. I once contacted my

Nada's therapist and told her I was concerned that they weren't discussing my

mother's real problems, that they were in fact discussing a whole set of

problems that I, and much of my family, believe that she has made up.

I received a terse letter from the therapist and my mother informed me that they

both thought that *I* was the crazy one.

I'm very much afraid that you're in a lose-lose-lose-lose-lose situation here.

We all very much want our nadas to be better, but they probably have a better

chance of being hit by lightning.

Also wanted to echo the lying, exaggerating and story telling that my Nada does.

(It's both eerie and comforting to come here and know that other people are

experiencing the same thing.) They live in a completely different reality. They

don't want help, don't think they need help, and will probably never get help.

[Guest guest]

big_sister_03: Hi. Just thought I'd throw my two cents in. I once contacted my

Nada's therapist and told her I was concerned that they weren't discussing my

mother's real problems, that they were in fact discussing a whole set of

problems that I, and much of my family, believe that she has made up.

I received a terse letter from the therapist and my mother informed me that they

both thought that *I* was the crazy one.

I'm very much afraid that you're in a lose-lose-lose-lose-lose situation here.

We all very much want our nadas to be better, but they probably have a better

chance of being hit by lightning.

Also wanted to echo the lying, exaggerating and story telling that my Nada does.

(It's both eerie and comforting to come here and know that other people are

experiencing the same thing.) They live in a completely different reality. They

don't want help, don't think they need help, and will probably never get help.

[Guest guest]

>

> Thanks everyone for the thoughts that were given.

>

> I am an RN by profession so the suggestion to confirm with the

therapist in a session by myself whether my mom's claims are true or not

immediately struck me as a violation of privacy.

>

> Doug are YOU a therapist?? haha - you always have such well laid

thoughts! Thank you, truly.

>

> You are right, I can't force her to heal. Its something I must come to

terms with. That really made me think.

Not exactly, but I DID stay at a Holiday Inn Express...

Seriously, I have spent years WITH a Therapist, and have taken on some

lay training as a para professional counselor. What that means is that

I have some training and experience, and can assist in one on one

mentoring, and in groups, but only under the auspices of a professional

counselor, I cannot charge fees, or offer diagnosis. I can talk with

folks in an intelligent and informed way, and challenge and help them

doing the work that their T sets them to.

So, no, by no means a T , but volunteer as part of a ministry/helping

network to expand the reach of the professionals in the organization

with which I work. So it is fair to say I ve had a bit more training

and experience than the average bloke off the streets. This is mainly

from a determination that , as I heal, I ll do what I can to help others

heal as well.

To whom much is given, much is required.

So it is very much from the heart when I say, so frequently, May we all

heal.

Blessings

Doug

[Guest guest]

>

> Thanks everyone for the thoughts that were given.

>

> I am an RN by profession so the suggestion to confirm with the

therapist in a session by myself whether my mom's claims are true or not

immediately struck me as a violation of privacy.

>

> Doug are YOU a therapist?? haha - you always have such well laid

thoughts! Thank you, truly.

>

> You are right, I can't force her to heal. Its something I must come to

terms with. That really made me think.

Not exactly, but I DID stay at a Holiday Inn Express...

Seriously, I have spent years WITH a Therapist, and have taken on some

lay training as a para professional counselor. What that means is that

I have some training and experience, and can assist in one on one

mentoring, and in groups, but only under the auspices of a professional

counselor, I cannot charge fees, or offer diagnosis. I can talk with

folks in an intelligent and informed way, and challenge and help them

doing the work that their T sets them to.

So, no, by no means a T , but volunteer as part of a ministry/helping

network to expand the reach of the professionals in the organization

with which I work. So it is fair to say I ve had a bit more training

and experience than the average bloke off the streets. This is mainly

from a determination that , as I heal, I ll do what I can to help others

heal as well.

To whom much is given, much is required.

So it is very much from the heart when I say, so frequently, May we all

heal.

Blessings

Doug

[Guest guest]

>

> Thanks everyone for the thoughts that were given.

>

> I am an RN by profession so the suggestion to confirm with the

therapist in a session by myself whether my mom's claims are true or not

immediately struck me as a violation of privacy.

>

> Doug are YOU a therapist?? haha - you always have such well laid

thoughts! Thank you, truly.

>

> You are right, I can't force her to heal. Its something I must come to

terms with. That really made me think.

Not exactly, but I DID stay at a Holiday Inn Express...

Seriously, I have spent years WITH a Therapist, and have taken on some

lay training as a para professional counselor. What that means is that

I have some training and experience, and can assist in one on one

mentoring, and in groups, but only under the auspices of a professional

counselor, I cannot charge fees, or offer diagnosis. I can talk with

folks in an intelligent and informed way, and challenge and help them

doing the work that their T sets them to.

So, no, by no means a T , but volunteer as part of a ministry/helping

network to expand the reach of the professionals in the organization

with which I work. So it is fair to say I ve had a bit more training

and experience than the average bloke off the streets. This is mainly

from a determination that , as I heal, I ll do what I can to help others

heal as well.

To whom much is given, much is required.

So it is very much from the heart when I say, so frequently, May we all

heal.

Blessings

Doug

[Guest guest]

Remember, remember, remember:

Professional ethics forbids a T to discuss the pt, no matter how batty,

with a third party. Not that the don t want to, which is why they will

often ASK for family therapy sessions.

And:

Your MOTHER ( Nada) informed you of what another person supposedly said?

We NEVER take the word of a BP as truth unless confirmed by another sane

person.

I think that somewhere in each of them , they want help. They don t

want to be so miserable to themselves and the ones they love. But, they

have learned to be " functionally dysfunctional " . What they are doing

is working, to a degree. It is not working well, but it is what they

know and they are terrified to give it up for another dynamic.

And there most of them live, and die.

Doug

>

> big_sister_03: Hi. Just thought I'd throw my two cents in. I once

contacted my Nada's therapist and told her I was concerned that they

weren't discussing my mother's real problems, that they were in fact

discussing a whole set of problems that I, and much of my family,

believe that she has made up.

>

> I received a terse letter from the therapist and my mother informed me

that they both thought that *I* was the crazy one.

>

> I'm very much afraid that you're in a lose-lose-lose-lose-lose

situation here. We all very much want our nadas to be better, but they

probably have a better chance of being hit by lightning.

>

> Also wanted to echo the lying, exaggerating and story telling that my

Nada does. (It's both eerie and comforting to come here and know that

other people are experiencing the same thing.) They live in a completely

different reality. They don't want help, don't think they need help, and

will probably never get help.

>