Re: Forming Healthy Friendships... Is it hard for others too?

[Guest guest]

I agree that it does get better, Annie! I have a few newer friends here now

since I've started school. In fact, we're getting together tonight. We are

the " fab 4 " ... the 4 original ladies who studied together for school. Right

now they're all ahead of me since I'm sitting out with medical issues, but

they're awesome ladies. Can't wait to see them tonight.

I will admit though, it took a long time for me to start opening up to them.

They originally came to me because they were falling behind in class and

wanted my help. I was scared lol. But I'm so glad I did it. I not only

made 3 good friends, but I helped teach them new ways to study & they are

all doing really well now! There have been times thought that I've thought,

" Hm, are they just using me? " But that fear is gone now since I know them

better. Just takes time, I guess.

It can get better, for sure.

I was also not a girly girl. I'm still not! But my nada like yours thought

that I should be.

Mia

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 10:29 AM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> I grew up hearing my nada call me " weird " and " creepy " because I just

> happened to not like girly-girl things and activities like she did. I was

> supposed to be exactly like her, and even though I was enmeshed with her and

> desperate to please her, I am an individual person and have tastes and

> preferences of my own. Like you I pretty consistently throughout my life

> have had only one or two close friends at a time and not a whole gaggle of

> friends, but over the last 10 years or so that is changing. I have

> discovered interest groups, I have found that I like belonging to various

> in-person meet-up groups and having a wider circle of friends. Not all of

> them are really close, but that's OK. In late middle age I am becoming more

> sociable than I ever was as a young person, and I like it! So, change is

> possible. I hope each of us finds a path to the joyful adult life that is

> our birthright.

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Wow the girly girl thing really interests me speaking of that. Maybe I

should start a new thread? So I am actually extremely girly girly, I love

pink, I wear dresses and skirts just about every day (I mean even on

Saturday, people, to take out the trash). I'm not the cupcake type though, I

am somewhere between classic feminine (trench coats, tailored suits) and

gothic (black, lace, fishnets etc) in my personal look.

Anyway, growing up I was pretty much forced to be a tom boy. My dad took me

everywhere with the boys. I shot guns. I trained herding dogs. I hunted. I

fished. I hiked. I am probably a better route finder and map reader than

most men, definitly better than my 300 lb, 6 foot 5 boyfriend. As a kid, I

wore boys clothes, hiking boots, tennis shoes and baseball caps (that's

about all I had). I wore jeans every day (I do not like jeans, I like

dresses by the way). My mom dressed me in army green and overalls even when

I was 1 and 2 years old. She also chopped my hair off even though I begged

her not too and cried and cried.

So I'm guessing that this girly girl stuff is just a personality trait. I've

always gotten along great with tom boy women, I totally get it having lived

it myself. I just can't be that. Even talking about this now makes me feel

like every single person on this list is going to hate me for being

feminine. But cognitively, i know - why would you hate me for that any more

than you would hate my boyfriend for loving the color purple in all its

shades even though he's a dude. I mean, its just a personal preference. I'm

not saying anyone else should wear a cute skirt and leggings to take out the

trash, its just thats what I would like to wear and I'm over 21 so I get to

choose.

Still, experience has not held this to be true for me. My ex-mother-in-law

gave me the feeling she wanted to murder me when I acted feminine just

because I wore a modest amount of make-up, earrings, or little things like

that .My nada - well you know that story. My boss - who is a little cream

puff of a woman, helpless act and all (I do not do the " but I'm just a girl "

thing by the way) tells me I should wear pants, fusses over my hair (which

is long) and criticizes my style and all that stuff.

I can pretty much relate to the way a young man might feel who has known he

is gay his entire life. His culture hates him for who he is. Though being

girly hardly seems like it is deserving of extreme hatred. . . Wow, I knew

this was a nerve, but I don't know if I really knew how big and raw a nerve.

Well, talk to me about that. I don't think its a matter of being girly or

not, I think its a matter of beiing hated for who you are on the inside. I

can remember being 2 years old and wanting to wear dresses and not being

allowed to wear them.

Thanks for listening guys. It's like layers of an onion, just when I think

I've gotten one off, I find another.

>

>

> I agree that it does get better, Annie! I have a few newer friends here now

> since I've started school. In fact, we're getting together tonight. We are

> the " fab 4 " ... the 4 original ladies who studied together for school. Right

> now they're all ahead of me since I'm sitting out with medical issues, but

> they're awesome ladies. Can't wait to see them tonight.

>

> I will admit though, it took a long time for me to start opening up to

> them.

> They originally came to me because they were falling behind in class and

> wanted my help. I was scared lol. But I'm so glad I did it. I not only

> made 3 good friends, but I helped teach them new ways to study & they are

> all doing really well now! There have been times thought that I've thought,

> " Hm, are they just using me? " But that fear is gone now since I know them

> better. Just takes time, I guess.

>

> It can get better, for sure.

>

> I was also not a girly girl. I'm still not! But my nada like yours thought

> that I should be.

>

> Mia

>

> On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 10:29 AM, anuria67854

<anuria-67854@...<anuria-67854%40mypacks.net>>wrote:

>

>

>

> >

> >

> > I grew up hearing my nada call me " weird " and " creepy " because I just

> > happened to not like girly-girl things and activities like she did. I was

> > supposed to be exactly like her, and even though I was enmeshed with her

> and

> > desperate to please her, I am an individual person and have tastes and

> > preferences of my own. Like you I pretty consistently throughout my life

> > have had only one or two close friends at a time and not a whole gaggle

> of

> > friends, but over the last 10 years or so that is changing. I have

> > discovered interest groups, I have found that I like belonging to various

> > in-person meet-up groups and having a wider circle of friends. Not all of

> > them are really close, but that's OK. In late middle age I am becoming

> more

> > sociable than I ever was as a young person, and I like it! So, change is

> > possible. I hope each of us finds a path to the joyful adult life that is

> > our birthright.

> > -Annie

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ha! Another girly girl here whose nada chopped her hair off...In my case,it was

because only nada could be the pretty one.She seemed to " think " I was

competition even before preschool: I can actually track the " threat " through

photographs: pic of me at about two with long curly hair looking

pretty---OOPS---next pic of me at two and a half with a " pixie cut " looking like

a boy....

She dressed me in my male cousin's hand me downs for years,like until

the third grade.I loved that cousin,he was a true gentleman and a really nice

kid,but still.I remember going to the town fair around age six/seven and trying

my luck at this fishing game and winning a prize and the guy manning the booth

handing me a pop gun because that was the best prize and he thought I was a boy:

" Here ya go,sonny " ...Weirdly,nada let my brother's hair grow long (although it

was the 70's,I mean long for a boy even in the 70s) to the point where he looked

like a girl and the same guy at the fair who gave me a pop gun would give my

brother a dolly for his prize.Memories of my brother pitching fits on the ground

when he got a dolly and having to ask the guy at the booth to exchange it for

something else.Really weird---nada " gender bended " both of us.

I love to wear dresses too and skirts and high heels...I have like ten

million different pairs of stockings and tights and leggings.And quite a jewelry

collection,I love jewelry.I have lipsticks I haven't even used yet...I get

it,Girlscout,you're not the only girly girl here

I personally find it liberating to be pretty and fashionable after

growing up being " ugly " for nada.Among other reasons...I enjoy now having or

owning the power of my own presence

>

> Wow the girly girl thing really interests me speaking of that. Maybe I

> should start a new thread? So I am actually extremely girly girly, I love

> pink, I wear dresses and skirts just about every day (I mean even on

> Saturday, people, to take out the trash). I'm not the cupcake type though, I

> am somewhere between classic feminine (trench coats, tailored suits) and

> gothic (black, lace, fishnets etc) in my personal look.

>

> Anyway, growing up I was pretty much forced to be a tom boy. My dad took me

> everywhere with the boys. I shot guns. I trained herding dogs. I hunted. I

> fished. I hiked. I am probably a better route finder and map reader than

> most men, definitly better than my 300 lb, 6 foot 5 boyfriend. As a kid, I

> wore boys clothes, hiking boots, tennis shoes and baseball caps (that's

> about all I had). I wore jeans every day (I do not like jeans, I like

> dresses by the way). My mom dressed me in army green and overalls even when

> I was 1 and 2 years old. She also chopped my hair off even though I begged

> her not too and cried and cried.

>

> So I'm guessing that this girly girl stuff is just a personality trait. I've

> always gotten along great with tom boy women, I totally get it having lived

> it myself. I just can't be that. Even talking about this now makes me feel

> like every single person on this list is going to hate me for being

> feminine. But cognitively, i know - why would you hate me for that any more

> than you would hate my boyfriend for loving the color purple in all its

> shades even though he's a dude. I mean, its just a personal preference. I'm

> not saying anyone else should wear a cute skirt and leggings to take out the

> trash, its just thats what I would like to wear and I'm over 21 so I get to

> choose.

>

> Still, experience has not held this to be true for me. My ex-mother-in-law

> gave me the feeling she wanted to murder me when I acted feminine just

> because I wore a modest amount of make-up, earrings, or little things like

> that .My nada - well you know that story. My boss - who is a little cream

> puff of a woman, helpless act and all (I do not do the " but I'm just a girl "

> thing by the way) tells me I should wear pants, fusses over my hair (which

> is long) and criticizes my style and all that stuff.

>

> I can pretty much relate to the way a young man might feel who has known he

> is gay his entire life. His culture hates him for who he is. Though being

> girly hardly seems like it is deserving of extreme hatred. . . Wow, I knew

> this was a nerve, but I don't know if I really knew how big and raw a nerve.

>

> Well, talk to me about that. I don't think its a matter of being girly or

> not, I think its a matter of beiing hated for who you are on the inside. I

> can remember being 2 years old and wanting to wear dresses and not being

> allowed to wear them.

>

> Thanks for listening guys. It's like layers of an onion, just when I think

> I've gotten one off, I find another.

[Guest guest]

Ha! Another girly girl here whose nada chopped her hair off...In my case,it was

because only nada could be the pretty one.She seemed to " think " I was

competition even before preschool: I can actually track the " threat " through

photographs: pic of me at about two with long curly hair looking

pretty---OOPS---next pic of me at two and a half with a " pixie cut " looking like

a boy....

She dressed me in my male cousin's hand me downs for years,like until

the third grade.I loved that cousin,he was a true gentleman and a really nice

kid,but still.I remember going to the town fair around age six/seven and trying

my luck at this fishing game and winning a prize and the guy manning the booth

handing me a pop gun because that was the best prize and he thought I was a boy:

" Here ya go,sonny " ...Weirdly,nada let my brother's hair grow long (although it

was the 70's,I mean long for a boy even in the 70s) to the point where he looked

like a girl and the same guy at the fair who gave me a pop gun would give my

brother a dolly for his prize.Memories of my brother pitching fits on the ground

when he got a dolly and having to ask the guy at the booth to exchange it for

something else.Really weird---nada " gender bended " both of us.

I love to wear dresses too and skirts and high heels...I have like ten

million different pairs of stockings and tights and leggings.And quite a jewelry

collection,I love jewelry.I have lipsticks I haven't even used yet...I get

it,Girlscout,you're not the only girly girl here

I personally find it liberating to be pretty and fashionable after

growing up being " ugly " for nada.Among other reasons...I enjoy now having or

owning the power of my own presence

>

> Wow the girly girl thing really interests me speaking of that. Maybe I

> should start a new thread? So I am actually extremely girly girly, I love

> pink, I wear dresses and skirts just about every day (I mean even on

> Saturday, people, to take out the trash). I'm not the cupcake type though, I

> am somewhere between classic feminine (trench coats, tailored suits) and

> gothic (black, lace, fishnets etc) in my personal look.

>

> Anyway, growing up I was pretty much forced to be a tom boy. My dad took me

> everywhere with the boys. I shot guns. I trained herding dogs. I hunted. I

> fished. I hiked. I am probably a better route finder and map reader than

> most men, definitly better than my 300 lb, 6 foot 5 boyfriend. As a kid, I

> wore boys clothes, hiking boots, tennis shoes and baseball caps (that's

> about all I had). I wore jeans every day (I do not like jeans, I like

> dresses by the way). My mom dressed me in army green and overalls even when

> I was 1 and 2 years old. She also chopped my hair off even though I begged

> her not too and cried and cried.

>

> So I'm guessing that this girly girl stuff is just a personality trait. I've

> always gotten along great with tom boy women, I totally get it having lived

> it myself. I just can't be that. Even talking about this now makes me feel

> like every single person on this list is going to hate me for being

> feminine. But cognitively, i know - why would you hate me for that any more

> than you would hate my boyfriend for loving the color purple in all its

> shades even though he's a dude. I mean, its just a personal preference. I'm

> not saying anyone else should wear a cute skirt and leggings to take out the

> trash, its just thats what I would like to wear and I'm over 21 so I get to

> choose.

>

> Still, experience has not held this to be true for me. My ex-mother-in-law

> gave me the feeling she wanted to murder me when I acted feminine just

> because I wore a modest amount of make-up, earrings, or little things like

> that .My nada - well you know that story. My boss - who is a little cream

> puff of a woman, helpless act and all (I do not do the " but I'm just a girl "

> thing by the way) tells me I should wear pants, fusses over my hair (which

> is long) and criticizes my style and all that stuff.

>

> I can pretty much relate to the way a young man might feel who has known he

> is gay his entire life. His culture hates him for who he is. Though being

> girly hardly seems like it is deserving of extreme hatred. . . Wow, I knew

> this was a nerve, but I don't know if I really knew how big and raw a nerve.

>

> Well, talk to me about that. I don't think its a matter of being girly or

> not, I think its a matter of beiing hated for who you are on the inside. I

> can remember being 2 years old and wanting to wear dresses and not being

> allowed to wear them.

>

> Thanks for listening guys. It's like layers of an onion, just when I think

> I've gotten one off, I find another.

[Guest guest]

Right on !

I think there was an element of nada not wanting me to be the pretty one

too. I remember a weird day when the orthodontist wanted to fix my teeth

(overbite). He said it was cosmetic. He said nada had it too, but it hadn't

been fixed on her.

Imagine for weeks a nada bitching about how overbites are prettier than non

overbites. And then she had mine fixed. . . but only after I knew it was

better to have one.

UGH

XOXO girly girl! Yeah!

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 3:23 PM, christine.depizan <

christine.depizan@...> wrote:

>

>

> Ha! Another girly girl here whose nada chopped her hair off...In my case,it

> was because only nada could be the pretty one.She seemed to " think " I was

> competition even before preschool: I can actually track the " threat " through

> photographs: pic of me at about two with long curly hair looking

> pretty---OOPS---next pic of me at two and a half with a " pixie cut " looking

> like a boy....

>

> She dressed me in my male cousin's hand me downs for years,like until the

> third grade.I loved that cousin,he was a true gentleman and a really nice

> kid,but still.I remember going to the town fair around age six/seven and

> trying my luck at this fishing game and winning a prize and the guy manning

> the booth handing me a pop gun because that was the best prize and he

> thought I was a boy: " Here ya go,sonny " ...Weirdly,nada let my brother's hair

> grow long (although it was the 70's,I mean long for a boy even in the 70s)

> to the point where he looked like a girl and the same guy at the fair who

> gave me a pop gun would give my brother a dolly for his prize.Memories of my

> brother pitching fits on the ground when he got a dolly and having to ask

> the guy at the booth to exchange it for something else.Really weird---nada

> " gender bended " both of us.

>

> I love to wear dresses too and skirts and high heels...I have like ten

> million different pairs of stockings and tights and leggings.And quite a

> jewelry collection,I love jewelry.I have lipsticks I haven't even used

> yet...I get it,Girlscout,you're not the only girly girl here

>

> I personally find it liberating to be pretty and fashionable after growing

> up being " ugly " for nada.Among other reasons...I enjoy now having or owning

> the power of my own presence

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Wow the girly girl thing really interests me speaking of that. Maybe I

> > should start a new thread? So I am actually extremely girly girly, I love

> > pink, I wear dresses and skirts just about every day (I mean even on

> > Saturday, people, to take out the trash). I'm not the cupcake type

> though, I

> > am somewhere between classic feminine (trench coats, tailored suits) and

> > gothic (black, lace, fishnets etc) in my personal look.

> >

> > Anyway, growing up I was pretty much forced to be a tom boy. My dad took

> me

> > everywhere with the boys. I shot guns. I trained herding dogs. I hunted.

> I

> > fished. I hiked. I am probably a better route finder and map reader than

> > most men, definitly better than my 300 lb, 6 foot 5 boyfriend. As a kid,

> I

> > wore boys clothes, hiking boots, tennis shoes and baseball caps (that's

> > about all I had). I wore jeans every day (I do not like jeans, I like

> > dresses by the way). My mom dressed me in army green and overalls even

> when

> > I was 1 and 2 years old. She also chopped my hair off even though I

> begged

> > her not too and cried and cried.

> >

> > So I'm guessing that this girly girl stuff is just a personality trait.

> I've

> > always gotten along great with tom boy women, I totally get it having

> lived

> > it myself. I just can't be that. Even talking about this now makes me

> feel

> > like every single person on this list is going to hate me for being

> > feminine. But cognitively, i know - why would you hate me for that any

> more

> > than you would hate my boyfriend for loving the color purple in all its

> > shades even though he's a dude. I mean, its just a personal preference.

> I'm

> > not saying anyone else should wear a cute skirt and leggings to take out

> the

> > trash, its just thats what I would like to wear and I'm over 21 so I get

> to

> > choose.

> >

> > Still, experience has not held this to be true for me. My

> ex-mother-in-law

> > gave me the feeling she wanted to murder me when I acted feminine just

> > because I wore a modest amount of make-up, earrings, or little things

> like

> > that .My nada - well you know that story. My boss - who is a little cream

> > puff of a woman, helpless act and all (I do not do the " but I'm just a

> girl "

> > thing by the way) tells me I should wear pants, fusses over my hair

> (which

> > is long) and criticizes my style and all that stuff.

> >

> > I can pretty much relate to the way a young man might feel who has known

> he

> > is gay his entire life. His culture hates him for who he is. Though being

> > girly hardly seems like it is deserving of extreme hatred. . . Wow, I

> knew

> > this was a nerve, but I don't know if I really knew how big and raw a

> nerve.

> >

> > Well, talk to me about that. I don't think its a matter of being girly or

> > not, I think its a matter of beiing hated for who you are on the inside.

> I

> > can remember being 2 years old and wanting to wear dresses and not being

> > allowed to wear them.

> >

> > Thanks for listening guys. It's like layers of an onion, just when I

> think

> > I've gotten one off, I find another.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Right on !

I think there was an element of nada not wanting me to be the pretty one

too. I remember a weird day when the orthodontist wanted to fix my teeth

(overbite). He said it was cosmetic. He said nada had it too, but it hadn't

been fixed on her.

Imagine for weeks a nada bitching about how overbites are prettier than non

overbites. And then she had mine fixed. . . but only after I knew it was

better to have one.

UGH

XOXO girly girl! Yeah!

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 3:23 PM, christine.depizan <

christine.depizan@...> wrote:

>

>

> Ha! Another girly girl here whose nada chopped her hair off...In my case,it

> was because only nada could be the pretty one.She seemed to " think " I was

> competition even before preschool: I can actually track the " threat " through

> photographs: pic of me at about two with long curly hair looking

> pretty---OOPS---next pic of me at two and a half with a " pixie cut " looking

> like a boy....

>

> She dressed me in my male cousin's hand me downs for years,like until the

> third grade.I loved that cousin,he was a true gentleman and a really nice

> kid,but still.I remember going to the town fair around age six/seven and

> trying my luck at this fishing game and winning a prize and the guy manning

> the booth handing me a pop gun because that was the best prize and he

> thought I was a boy: " Here ya go,sonny " ...Weirdly,nada let my brother's hair

> grow long (although it was the 70's,I mean long for a boy even in the 70s)

> to the point where he looked like a girl and the same guy at the fair who

> gave me a pop gun would give my brother a dolly for his prize.Memories of my

> brother pitching fits on the ground when he got a dolly and having to ask

> the guy at the booth to exchange it for something else.Really weird---nada

> " gender bended " both of us.

>

> I love to wear dresses too and skirts and high heels...I have like ten

> million different pairs of stockings and tights and leggings.And quite a

> jewelry collection,I love jewelry.I have lipsticks I haven't even used

> yet...I get it,Girlscout,you're not the only girly girl here

>

> I personally find it liberating to be pretty and fashionable after growing

> up being " ugly " for nada.Among other reasons...I enjoy now having or owning

> the power of my own presence

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Wow the girly girl thing really interests me speaking of that. Maybe I

> > should start a new thread? So I am actually extremely girly girly, I love

> > pink, I wear dresses and skirts just about every day (I mean even on

> > Saturday, people, to take out the trash). I'm not the cupcake type

> though, I

> > am somewhere between classic feminine (trench coats, tailored suits) and

> > gothic (black, lace, fishnets etc) in my personal look.

> >

> > Anyway, growing up I was pretty much forced to be a tom boy. My dad took

> me

> > everywhere with the boys. I shot guns. I trained herding dogs. I hunted.

> I

> > fished. I hiked. I am probably a better route finder and map reader than

> > most men, definitly better than my 300 lb, 6 foot 5 boyfriend. As a kid,

> I

> > wore boys clothes, hiking boots, tennis shoes and baseball caps (that's

> > about all I had). I wore jeans every day (I do not like jeans, I like

> > dresses by the way). My mom dressed me in army green and overalls even

> when

> > I was 1 and 2 years old. She also chopped my hair off even though I

> begged

> > her not too and cried and cried.

> >

> > So I'm guessing that this girly girl stuff is just a personality trait.

> I've

> > always gotten along great with tom boy women, I totally get it having

> lived

> > it myself. I just can't be that. Even talking about this now makes me

> feel

> > like every single person on this list is going to hate me for being

> > feminine. But cognitively, i know - why would you hate me for that any

> more

> > than you would hate my boyfriend for loving the color purple in all its

> > shades even though he's a dude. I mean, its just a personal preference.

> I'm

> > not saying anyone else should wear a cute skirt and leggings to take out

> the

> > trash, its just thats what I would like to wear and I'm over 21 so I get

> to

> > choose.

> >

> > Still, experience has not held this to be true for me. My

> ex-mother-in-law

> > gave me the feeling she wanted to murder me when I acted feminine just

> > because I wore a modest amount of make-up, earrings, or little things

> like

> > that .My nada - well you know that story. My boss - who is a little cream

> > puff of a woman, helpless act and all (I do not do the " but I'm just a

> girl "

> > thing by the way) tells me I should wear pants, fusses over my hair

> (which

> > is long) and criticizes my style and all that stuff.

> >

> > I can pretty much relate to the way a young man might feel who has known

> he

> > is gay his entire life. His culture hates him for who he is. Though being

> > girly hardly seems like it is deserving of extreme hatred. . . Wow, I

> knew

> > this was a nerve, but I don't know if I really knew how big and raw a

> nerve.

> >

> > Well, talk to me about that. I don't think its a matter of being girly or

> > not, I think its a matter of beiing hated for who you are on the inside.

> I

> > can remember being 2 years old and wanting to wear dresses and not being

> > allowed to wear them.

> >

> > Thanks for listening guys. It's like layers of an onion, just when I

> think

> > I've gotten one off, I find another.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It's so amazing to hear that others had such similar experiences growing

up after feeling like I was the only one in the world with a crazy nada.

I loved all things girly as a kid... make-up, hair accessories, etc... I

wanted long hair more than anything in the world but nada started

chopping it off when I was a toddler and kept it super short until I was

old enough to tell the hair dresser how I wanted it cut. Nada refused

to let me shave my legs, wear make-up, pierce my ears, and so on... Like

you all have said, whatever WE wanted to enjoy and express as part of

ourselves, then be sure that Nada would forbid it. There was never any

joy in self expression with nada.

Now that I have a 2 year old daughter, and she is SO girly, I just love

to let her do her thing! Her favorite color is pink so most days she's

dressed in pink from head to toe, I even let her pick her own outfits

:-) It's such a joy to watch her grow and develop her own sense of style

and take such delight in a tube of glitter Hello Kitty chap-stick, haha!

Having grown up with a tyrant nada has made me appreciate my daughter's

individuality in a way most parents probably don't.

Here's to being ourselves :-)

> > >

> > > Wow the girly girl thing really interests me speaking of that.

Maybe I

> > > should start a new thread? So I am actually extremely girly girly,

I love

> > > pink, I wear dresses and skirts just about every day (I mean even

on

> > > Saturday, people, to take out the trash). I'm not the cupcake type

> > though, I

> > > am somewhere between classic feminine (trench coats, tailored

suits) and

> > > gothic (black, lace, fishnets etc) in my personal look.

> > >

> > > Anyway, growing up I was pretty much forced to be a tom boy. My

dad took

> > me

> > > everywhere with the boys. I shot guns. I trained herding dogs. I

hunted.

> > I

> > > fished. I hiked. I am probably a better route finder and map

reader than

> > > most men, definitly better than my 300 lb, 6 foot 5 boyfriend. As

a kid,

> > I

> > > wore boys clothes, hiking boots, tennis shoes and baseball caps

(that's

> > > about all I had). I wore jeans every day (I do not like jeans, I

like

> > > dresses by the way). My mom dressed me in army green and overalls

even

> > when

> > > I was 1 and 2 years old. She also chopped my hair off even though

I

> > begged

> > > her not too and cried and cried.

> > >

> > > So I'm guessing that this girly girl stuff is just a personality

trait.

> > I've

> > > always gotten along great with tom boy women, I totally get it

having

> > lived

> > > it myself. I just can't be that. Even talking about this now makes

me

> > feel

> > > like every single person on this list is going to hate me for

being

> > > feminine. But cognitively, i know - why would you hate me for that

any

> > more

> > > than you would hate my boyfriend for loving the color purple in

all its

> > > shades even though he's a dude. I mean, its just a personal

preference.

> > I'm

> > > not saying anyone else should wear a cute skirt and leggings to

take out

> > the

> > > trash, its just thats what I would like to wear and I'm over 21 so

I get

> > to

> > > choose.

> > >

> > > Still, experience has not held this to be true for me. My

> > ex-mother-in-law

> > > gave me the feeling she wanted to murder me when I acted feminine

just

> > > because I wore a modest amount of make-up, earrings, or little

things

> > like

> > > that .My nada - well you know that story. My boss - who is a

little cream

> > > puff of a woman, helpless act and all (I do not do the " but I'm

just a

> > girl "

> > > thing by the way) tells me I should wear pants, fusses over my

hair

> > (which

> > > is long) and criticizes my style and all that stuff.

> > >

> > > I can pretty much relate to the way a young man might feel who has

known

> > he

> > > is gay his entire life. His culture hates him for who he is.

Though being

> > > girly hardly seems like it is deserving of extreme hatred. . .

Wow, I

> > knew

> > > this was a nerve, but I don't know if I really knew how big and

raw a

> > nerve.

> > >

> > > Well, talk to me about that. I don't think its a matter of being

girly or

> > > not, I think its a matter of beiing hated for who you are on the

inside.

> > I

> > > can remember being 2 years old and wanting to wear dresses and not

being

> > > allowed to wear them.

> > >

> > > Thanks for listening guys. It's like layers of an onion, just when

I

> > think

> > > I've gotten one off, I find another.

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I am planning to read the books recommended by Doug, like " Safe People " and some

others by Cloud and Townsend. I think this will help a lot. " Boundaries " by

Cloud and Townsend basically kept me out of the loony bin a few years back.

Great stuff. You might take a look at " The Gift of Fear " that Annie mentioned.

I skimmed it at the library and am definitely getting it for my therapist

library.

I can't believe I'm going into therapy as a career. Good thing I have a few

years to go in the program; maybe I can get my crap together a little bit more

before I try helping kids as a school counselor. Lord help us all! Talk about

the blind leading the blind...

Anyway, I'm so far back that I don't even CARE if I have friends. I'm so full

of anger and hurt and self-recrimination right now. And kind of angry at the

world. But that's tonight. I'll probably be back to my cheery self after FOO

leaves town at lunch tomorrow. My sense of humor is mysteriously lacking. I

just can't find anything funny about this like I usually do.

I thank God literally every day for this group. I believe it is helping me to

begin the journey toward healing and finally crawl out of the hole of denial and

misery in which I was trapped. I spent so much time looking for validation for

these feelings that I had no energy left for friendships. Still don't. And

don't even care.

I think wanting to have friendships here in this group is a big step. And this

is a safe place. No one will hurt you intentionally here. People actually

understand. Perfectly. It is so encouraging.

+Coal Miner's Daughter

>

> I've been in therapy for the past 12 years dealing with all the damage

> my BP nada caused, and while I've made great progress in areas of my

> life like career, marriage, motherhood, and just general stability, the

> one thing I can't seem to break out of is forming friendships with

> really dysfunctional people. This is something I've talked to my

> therapist about but she just suggests places for me to meet new people

> and not how to break the cycle of dysfunction. I consistently make

> friends with women that are either children of BPs or have some type of

> severe emotional baggage they refuse to get help for. I end up becoming

> their personal therapist and despite begging them to seek professional

> help they choose to remain unhappy and bring me down with them. I

> recently ended a relationship with my BEST friend b/c I couldn't handle

> being hurt over and over but then got really depressed b/c it was like

> losing a sister.

> So I'm wondering if other children of BPs also have trouble finding

> healthy friendships and if so, how do you deal with it?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I am planning to read the books recommended by Doug, like " Safe People " and some

others by Cloud and Townsend. I think this will help a lot. " Boundaries " by

Cloud and Townsend basically kept me out of the loony bin a few years back.

Great stuff. You might take a look at " The Gift of Fear " that Annie mentioned.

I skimmed it at the library and am definitely getting it for my therapist

library.

I can't believe I'm going into therapy as a career. Good thing I have a few

years to go in the program; maybe I can get my crap together a little bit more

before I try helping kids as a school counselor. Lord help us all! Talk about

the blind leading the blind...

Anyway, I'm so far back that I don't even CARE if I have friends. I'm so full

of anger and hurt and self-recrimination right now. And kind of angry at the

world. But that's tonight. I'll probably be back to my cheery self after FOO

leaves town at lunch tomorrow. My sense of humor is mysteriously lacking. I

just can't find anything funny about this like I usually do.

I thank God literally every day for this group. I believe it is helping me to

begin the journey toward healing and finally crawl out of the hole of denial and

misery in which I was trapped. I spent so much time looking for validation for

these feelings that I had no energy left for friendships. Still don't. And

don't even care.

I think wanting to have friendships here in this group is a big step. And this

is a safe place. No one will hurt you intentionally here. People actually

understand. Perfectly. It is so encouraging.

+Coal Miner's Daughter

>

> I've been in therapy for the past 12 years dealing with all the damage

> my BP nada caused, and while I've made great progress in areas of my

> life like career, marriage, motherhood, and just general stability, the

> one thing I can't seem to break out of is forming friendships with

> really dysfunctional people. This is something I've talked to my

> therapist about but she just suggests places for me to meet new people

> and not how to break the cycle of dysfunction. I consistently make

> friends with women that are either children of BPs or have some type of

> severe emotional baggage they refuse to get help for. I end up becoming

> their personal therapist and despite begging them to seek professional

> help they choose to remain unhappy and bring me down with them. I

> recently ended a relationship with my BEST friend b/c I couldn't handle

> being hurt over and over but then got really depressed b/c it was like

> losing a sister.

> So I'm wondering if other children of BPs also have trouble finding

> healthy friendships and if so, how do you deal with it?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You are who you are! And there is NOTHING wrong with being girly, it's just

not me. I was forced into dresses & cute little girl outfits as a child,

and all the friends I had in the neighborhood were boys. So I was climbing

trees, playing in the mud & playing cops & robbers in my little frilly

dresses lol. Eventually my nada decided pants would be best.

I think people should be true to themselves and not try to live up to what

someone else wants of them. Of course there are times when you have to take

into consideration other people, I'm not saying be selfish or cold hearted

at all. Just be you! And if you like to wear dresses & all that stuff,

that's awesome. It's just not for me hehe. Give me some comfortable (but

cute) jeans and a casual (but cute!) T-shirt and I'm good to go.

The one area where I was girly was with my Barbie dolls and my doll house.

I LOVED those things with all my heart. But I was just as content to play

with robots, race cars & even mud pies with worms. I guess I was easy going

then, and I still am. =)

I also just think I look plain wrong in most pretty dresses & more girly

clothes. They don't suit me or fit me right or something. I try them on &

look in the mirror and go " nope, no way. never " . They look better on the

hanger or other women.

You were saying something about how a gay person might feel. I think I can

also relate to that myself. I will admit, I often don't feel like I'm a

woman. I don't exactly know why, but I just don't. That's probably why my

upcoming surgery doesn't bother me... it's for " female issues " . I looked at

my doctor and said, " Ok, I'm done being a woman... where can I resign? " She

was actually kind of worried about that statement until I clarified that I

was so done with having these problems & all of this pain that the upcoming

surgery doesn't bother me one bit. I just want quality of life back.

I don't feel like a man either. I don't know, I just don't look at myself

as either. I'm just me. I know it's weird, but I am weird (hopefully in a

good way & not the creepy way).

(As an aside, sorry if talking about that kinda stuff bothers anyone, but I

do feel it's relevant to what I'm trying to say and that's why I'm not going

into major detail about my health issues LOL)

I sure don't judge a person by what they choose to wear. It's the quality

of the person inside the clothes that counts.

I hope you will find a way to be comfortable being wonderful you. =)

Mia

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Girlscout Cowboy <

girlscout.cowboy@...> wrote:

> Wow the girly girl thing really interests me speaking of that. Maybe I

> should start a new thread? So I am actually extremely girly girly, I love

> pink, I wear dresses and skirts just about every day (I mean even on

> Saturday, people, to take out the trash). I'm not the cupcake type though,

> I

> am somewhere between classic feminine (trench coats, tailored suits) and

> gothic (black, lace, fishnets etc) in my personal look.

>

> Anyway, growing up I was pretty much forced to be a tom boy. My dad took me

> everywhere with the boys. I shot guns. I trained herding dogs. I hunted. I

> fished. I hiked. I am probably a better route finder and map reader than

> most men, definitly better than my 300 lb, 6 foot 5 boyfriend. As a kid, I

> wore boys clothes, hiking boots, tennis shoes and baseball caps (that's

> about all I had). I wore jeans every day (I do not like jeans, I like

> dresses by the way). My mom dressed me in army green and overalls even when

> I was 1 and 2 years old. She also chopped my hair off even though I begged

> her not too and cried and cried.

>

> So I'm guessing that this girly girl stuff is just a personality trait.

> I've

> always gotten along great with tom boy women, I totally get it having lived

> it myself. I just can't be that. Even talking about this now makes me feel

> like every single person on this list is going to hate me for being

> feminine. But cognitively, i know - why would you hate me for that any more

> than you would hate my boyfriend for loving the color purple in all its

> shades even though he's a dude. I mean, its just a personal preference.

> I'm

> not saying anyone else should wear a cute skirt and leggings to take out

> the

> trash, its just thats what I would like to wear and I'm over 21 so I get to

> choose.

>

> Still, experience has not held this to be true for me. My ex-mother-in-law

> gave me the feeling she wanted to murder me when I acted feminine just

> because I wore a modest amount of make-up, earrings, or little things like

> that .My nada - well you know that story. My boss - who is a little cream

> puff of a woman, helpless act and all (I do not do the " but I'm just a

> girl "

> thing by the way) tells me I should wear pants, fusses over my hair (which

> is long) and criticizes my style and all that stuff.

>

> I can pretty much relate to the way a young man might feel who has known he

> is gay his entire life. His culture hates him for who he is. Though being

> girly hardly seems like it is deserving of extreme hatred. . . Wow, I knew

> this was a nerve, but I don't know if I really knew how big and raw a

> nerve.

>

> Well, talk to me about that. I don't think its a matter of being girly or

> not, I think its a matter of beiing hated for who you are on the inside. I

> can remember being 2 years old and wanting to wear dresses and not being

> allowed to wear them.

>

> Thanks for listening guys. It's like layers of an onion, just when I think

> I've gotten one off, I find another.

>

>

[Guest guest]

You are who you are! And there is NOTHING wrong with being girly, it's just

not me. I was forced into dresses & cute little girl outfits as a child,

and all the friends I had in the neighborhood were boys. So I was climbing

trees, playing in the mud & playing cops & robbers in my little frilly

dresses lol. Eventually my nada decided pants would be best.

I think people should be true to themselves and not try to live up to what

someone else wants of them. Of course there are times when you have to take

into consideration other people, I'm not saying be selfish or cold hearted

at all. Just be you! And if you like to wear dresses & all that stuff,

that's awesome. It's just not for me hehe. Give me some comfortable (but

cute) jeans and a casual (but cute!) T-shirt and I'm good to go.

The one area where I was girly was with my Barbie dolls and my doll house.

I LOVED those things with all my heart. But I was just as content to play

with robots, race cars & even mud pies with worms. I guess I was easy going

then, and I still am. =)

I also just think I look plain wrong in most pretty dresses & more girly

clothes. They don't suit me or fit me right or something. I try them on &

look in the mirror and go " nope, no way. never " . They look better on the

hanger or other women.

You were saying something about how a gay person might feel. I think I can

also relate to that myself. I will admit, I often don't feel like I'm a

woman. I don't exactly know why, but I just don't. That's probably why my

upcoming surgery doesn't bother me... it's for " female issues " . I looked at

my doctor and said, " Ok, I'm done being a woman... where can I resign? " She

was actually kind of worried about that statement until I clarified that I

was so done with having these problems & all of this pain that the upcoming

surgery doesn't bother me one bit. I just want quality of life back.

I don't feel like a man either. I don't know, I just don't look at myself

as either. I'm just me. I know it's weird, but I am weird (hopefully in a

good way & not the creepy way).

(As an aside, sorry if talking about that kinda stuff bothers anyone, but I

do feel it's relevant to what I'm trying to say and that's why I'm not going

into major detail about my health issues LOL)

I sure don't judge a person by what they choose to wear. It's the quality

of the person inside the clothes that counts.

I hope you will find a way to be comfortable being wonderful you. =)

Mia

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Girlscout Cowboy <

girlscout.cowboy@...> wrote:

> Wow the girly girl thing really interests me speaking of that. Maybe I

> should start a new thread? So I am actually extremely girly girly, I love

> pink, I wear dresses and skirts just about every day (I mean even on

> Saturday, people, to take out the trash). I'm not the cupcake type though,

> I

> am somewhere between classic feminine (trench coats, tailored suits) and

> gothic (black, lace, fishnets etc) in my personal look.

>

> Anyway, growing up I was pretty much forced to be a tom boy. My dad took me

> everywhere with the boys. I shot guns. I trained herding dogs. I hunted. I

> fished. I hiked. I am probably a better route finder and map reader than

> most men, definitly better than my 300 lb, 6 foot 5 boyfriend. As a kid, I

> wore boys clothes, hiking boots, tennis shoes and baseball caps (that's

> about all I had). I wore jeans every day (I do not like jeans, I like

> dresses by the way). My mom dressed me in army green and overalls even when

> I was 1 and 2 years old. She also chopped my hair off even though I begged

> her not too and cried and cried.

>

> So I'm guessing that this girly girl stuff is just a personality trait.

> I've

> always gotten along great with tom boy women, I totally get it having lived

> it myself. I just can't be that. Even talking about this now makes me feel

> like every single person on this list is going to hate me for being

> feminine. But cognitively, i know - why would you hate me for that any more

> than you would hate my boyfriend for loving the color purple in all its

> shades even though he's a dude. I mean, its just a personal preference.

> I'm

> not saying anyone else should wear a cute skirt and leggings to take out

> the

> trash, its just thats what I would like to wear and I'm over 21 so I get to

> choose.

>

> Still, experience has not held this to be true for me. My ex-mother-in-law

> gave me the feeling she wanted to murder me when I acted feminine just

> because I wore a modest amount of make-up, earrings, or little things like

> that .My nada - well you know that story. My boss - who is a little cream

> puff of a woman, helpless act and all (I do not do the " but I'm just a

> girl "

> thing by the way) tells me I should wear pants, fusses over my hair (which

> is long) and criticizes my style and all that stuff.

>

> I can pretty much relate to the way a young man might feel who has known he

> is gay his entire life. His culture hates him for who he is. Though being

> girly hardly seems like it is deserving of extreme hatred. . . Wow, I knew

> this was a nerve, but I don't know if I really knew how big and raw a

> nerve.

>

> Well, talk to me about that. I don't think its a matter of being girly or

> not, I think its a matter of beiing hated for who you are on the inside. I

> can remember being 2 years old and wanting to wear dresses and not being

> allowed to wear them.

>

> Thanks for listening guys. It's like layers of an onion, just when I think

> I've gotten one off, I find another.

>

>

[Guest guest]

You are who you are! And there is NOTHING wrong with being girly, it's just

not me. I was forced into dresses & cute little girl outfits as a child,

and all the friends I had in the neighborhood were boys. So I was climbing

trees, playing in the mud & playing cops & robbers in my little frilly

dresses lol. Eventually my nada decided pants would be best.

I think people should be true to themselves and not try to live up to what

someone else wants of them. Of course there are times when you have to take

into consideration other people, I'm not saying be selfish or cold hearted

at all. Just be you! And if you like to wear dresses & all that stuff,

that's awesome. It's just not for me hehe. Give me some comfortable (but

cute) jeans and a casual (but cute!) T-shirt and I'm good to go.

The one area where I was girly was with my Barbie dolls and my doll house.

I LOVED those things with all my heart. But I was just as content to play

with robots, race cars & even mud pies with worms. I guess I was easy going

then, and I still am. =)

I also just think I look plain wrong in most pretty dresses & more girly

clothes. They don't suit me or fit me right or something. I try them on &

look in the mirror and go " nope, no way. never " . They look better on the

hanger or other women.

You were saying something about how a gay person might feel. I think I can

also relate to that myself. I will admit, I often don't feel like I'm a

woman. I don't exactly know why, but I just don't. That's probably why my

upcoming surgery doesn't bother me... it's for " female issues " . I looked at

my doctor and said, " Ok, I'm done being a woman... where can I resign? " She

was actually kind of worried about that statement until I clarified that I

was so done with having these problems & all of this pain that the upcoming

surgery doesn't bother me one bit. I just want quality of life back.

I don't feel like a man either. I don't know, I just don't look at myself

as either. I'm just me. I know it's weird, but I am weird (hopefully in a

good way & not the creepy way).

(As an aside, sorry if talking about that kinda stuff bothers anyone, but I

do feel it's relevant to what I'm trying to say and that's why I'm not going

into major detail about my health issues LOL)

I sure don't judge a person by what they choose to wear. It's the quality

of the person inside the clothes that counts.

I hope you will find a way to be comfortable being wonderful you. =)

Mia

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Girlscout Cowboy <

girlscout.cowboy@...> wrote:

> Wow the girly girl thing really interests me speaking of that. Maybe I

> should start a new thread? So I am actually extremely girly girly, I love

> pink, I wear dresses and skirts just about every day (I mean even on

> Saturday, people, to take out the trash). I'm not the cupcake type though,

> I

> am somewhere between classic feminine (trench coats, tailored suits) and

> gothic (black, lace, fishnets etc) in my personal look.

>

> Anyway, growing up I was pretty much forced to be a tom boy. My dad took me

> everywhere with the boys. I shot guns. I trained herding dogs. I hunted. I

> fished. I hiked. I am probably a better route finder and map reader than

> most men, definitly better than my 300 lb, 6 foot 5 boyfriend. As a kid, I

> wore boys clothes, hiking boots, tennis shoes and baseball caps (that's

> about all I had). I wore jeans every day (I do not like jeans, I like

> dresses by the way). My mom dressed me in army green and overalls even when

> I was 1 and 2 years old. She also chopped my hair off even though I begged

> her not too and cried and cried.

>

> So I'm guessing that this girly girl stuff is just a personality trait.

> I've

> always gotten along great with tom boy women, I totally get it having lived

> it myself. I just can't be that. Even talking about this now makes me feel

> like every single person on this list is going to hate me for being

> feminine. But cognitively, i know - why would you hate me for that any more

> than you would hate my boyfriend for loving the color purple in all its

> shades even though he's a dude. I mean, its just a personal preference.

> I'm

> not saying anyone else should wear a cute skirt and leggings to take out

> the

> trash, its just thats what I would like to wear and I'm over 21 so I get to

> choose.

>

> Still, experience has not held this to be true for me. My ex-mother-in-law

> gave me the feeling she wanted to murder me when I acted feminine just

> because I wore a modest amount of make-up, earrings, or little things like

> that .My nada - well you know that story. My boss - who is a little cream

> puff of a woman, helpless act and all (I do not do the " but I'm just a

> girl "

> thing by the way) tells me I should wear pants, fusses over my hair (which

> is long) and criticizes my style and all that stuff.

>

> I can pretty much relate to the way a young man might feel who has known he

> is gay his entire life. His culture hates him for who he is. Though being

> girly hardly seems like it is deserving of extreme hatred. . . Wow, I knew

> this was a nerve, but I don't know if I really knew how big and raw a

> nerve.

>

> Well, talk to me about that. I don't think its a matter of being girly or

> not, I think its a matter of beiing hated for who you are on the inside. I

> can remember being 2 years old and wanting to wear dresses and not being

> allowed to wear them.

>

> Thanks for listening guys. It's like layers of an onion, just when I think

> I've gotten one off, I find another.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree armyinlaw. In fact exactly what you said - what so often amazes me with

this, is it is like someone else has somehow read my mind and written my

thoughts and feelings down exactly as I feel them. It's silly, but it still

amazes me that someone does actually feel the same way, and that there are

people out there who might actually understand! I have so often began to try and

then find that people just don't really get it.

I have always been the 'weird' one in the family. Been a bit of a tomboy and

always struggled with relationships. Didn't fit in at home, didn't fit in at

school and was bullied in both places. The reason I love animals more than

people is it because with them is the only time I have ever fit and not been

judged. We grew up with dogs & cats and they loved me unconditionally no matter

what. Pity the rest of my family couldn't do the same. Pity the kids at school

could give other kids a fair go, but honestly, some kids can be really nasty.

I have had to train myself to have social skills (and still working on it). I am

not very good at making new friends and only have a couple of very close friends

(and it wasn't easy for them to get there). My biggest problem though - trust. I

really struggle to let someone in. Even with my closest friends, I have had to

have arguments with myself when I have doubted them, for no good reason. I am

getting better at it, but if I can doubt my closest and long-time friends, it

doesn't make it easy to make new friends! And it is hard as they live in other

states as their work has taken them to different places, as has mine. And after

all, if your own family betrays you, why would it then be easy to trust

strangers?

Slowly I am working on it, but it is really difficult. I know there are good

people, and I keep trying to let them in, but I can't shake the feeling that I

am just waiting for them to stab me in the back the moment I drop my guard.

After all, when that is your experience growing up, over and over again - why

would you expect any different? So I still have a long way to go, but looking

forward to the day that I have some close friends that I can just call up to go

see a movie, or I can call after something my Nada or family does to upset me

and unload. Someone who I don't have to worry about how I am saying things, that

I can just unload to...sigh.

But in the meantime - I am in my late twenties, single and have decided that I

will not wait for life to happen, but that it is time to go out and grasp it in

both hands, even if I have to go it alone to do this at this time. So I am going

to get ready to go celebrate the New Year, as I can't wait to see this one gone,

dance to the music at the New Years celebrations in my city and watch the

fireworks!

And raise my glass to making some new (good) friends in the New Year! All the

best to you and I hope you find some good people to be friends with also.

Jodie

[Guest guest]

I agree armyinlaw. In fact exactly what you said - what so often amazes me with

this, is it is like someone else has somehow read my mind and written my

thoughts and feelings down exactly as I feel them. It's silly, but it still

amazes me that someone does actually feel the same way, and that there are

people out there who might actually understand! I have so often began to try and

then find that people just don't really get it.

I have always been the 'weird' one in the family. Been a bit of a tomboy and

always struggled with relationships. Didn't fit in at home, didn't fit in at

school and was bullied in both places. The reason I love animals more than

people is it because with them is the only time I have ever fit and not been

judged. We grew up with dogs & cats and they loved me unconditionally no matter

what. Pity the rest of my family couldn't do the same. Pity the kids at school

could give other kids a fair go, but honestly, some kids can be really nasty.

I have had to train myself to have social skills (and still working on it). I am

not very good at making new friends and only have a couple of very close friends

(and it wasn't easy for them to get there). My biggest problem though - trust. I

really struggle to let someone in. Even with my closest friends, I have had to

have arguments with myself when I have doubted them, for no good reason. I am

getting better at it, but if I can doubt my closest and long-time friends, it

doesn't make it easy to make new friends! And it is hard as they live in other

states as their work has taken them to different places, as has mine. And after

all, if your own family betrays you, why would it then be easy to trust

strangers?

Slowly I am working on it, but it is really difficult. I know there are good

people, and I keep trying to let them in, but I can't shake the feeling that I

am just waiting for them to stab me in the back the moment I drop my guard.

After all, when that is your experience growing up, over and over again - why

would you expect any different? So I still have a long way to go, but looking

forward to the day that I have some close friends that I can just call up to go

see a movie, or I can call after something my Nada or family does to upset me

and unload. Someone who I don't have to worry about how I am saying things, that

I can just unload to...sigh.

But in the meantime - I am in my late twenties, single and have decided that I

will not wait for life to happen, but that it is time to go out and grasp it in

both hands, even if I have to go it alone to do this at this time. So I am going

to get ready to go celebrate the New Year, as I can't wait to see this one gone,

dance to the music at the New Years celebrations in my city and watch the

fireworks!

And raise my glass to making some new (good) friends in the New Year! All the

best to you and I hope you find some good people to be friends with also.

Jodie

[Guest guest]

I agree armyinlaw. In fact exactly what you said - what so often amazes me with

this, is it is like someone else has somehow read my mind and written my

thoughts and feelings down exactly as I feel them. It's silly, but it still

amazes me that someone does actually feel the same way, and that there are

people out there who might actually understand! I have so often began to try and

then find that people just don't really get it.

I have always been the 'weird' one in the family. Been a bit of a tomboy and

always struggled with relationships. Didn't fit in at home, didn't fit in at

school and was bullied in both places. The reason I love animals more than

people is it because with them is the only time I have ever fit and not been

judged. We grew up with dogs & cats and they loved me unconditionally no matter

what. Pity the rest of my family couldn't do the same. Pity the kids at school

could give other kids a fair go, but honestly, some kids can be really nasty.

I have had to train myself to have social skills (and still working on it). I am

not very good at making new friends and only have a couple of very close friends

(and it wasn't easy for them to get there). My biggest problem though - trust. I

really struggle to let someone in. Even with my closest friends, I have had to

have arguments with myself when I have doubted them, for no good reason. I am

getting better at it, but if I can doubt my closest and long-time friends, it

doesn't make it easy to make new friends! And it is hard as they live in other

states as their work has taken them to different places, as has mine. And after

all, if your own family betrays you, why would it then be easy to trust

strangers?

Slowly I am working on it, but it is really difficult. I know there are good

people, and I keep trying to let them in, but I can't shake the feeling that I

am just waiting for them to stab me in the back the moment I drop my guard.

After all, when that is your experience growing up, over and over again - why

would you expect any different? So I still have a long way to go, but looking

forward to the day that I have some close friends that I can just call up to go

see a movie, or I can call after something my Nada or family does to upset me

and unload. Someone who I don't have to worry about how I am saying things, that

I can just unload to...sigh.

But in the meantime - I am in my late twenties, single and have decided that I

will not wait for life to happen, but that it is time to go out and grasp it in

both hands, even if I have to go it alone to do this at this time. So I am going

to get ready to go celebrate the New Year, as I can't wait to see this one gone,

dance to the music at the New Years celebrations in my city and watch the

fireworks!

And raise my glass to making some new (good) friends in the New Year! All the

best to you and I hope you find some good people to be friends with also.

Jodie

[Guest guest]

Wow you guys, I honestly expected everyone to berate me when I admited I'm a

girly girl. Thanks for the support. I didn't realize this was such a raw

issue inside me.

Here's to being who you are -- and screw anyone who tries to make you

someone else.

By the way, in the spirit of my 100% support of gender bending, I'm

snuggling on the couch as I write this with a little boy dog I am tending

who is wearing a soft pink hoodie! He looks great - I was hoping for a drag

queen look but really it just looks kind of 80s. remember when the boys all

wore pink polos with the little alligator on the boob. . . Ha ha

Happy New Year everyone!!!

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 1:56 AM, tala_aislin wrote:

>

>

> I agree armyinlaw. In fact exactly what you said - what so often amazes me

> with this, is it is like someone else has somehow read my mind and written

> my thoughts and feelings down exactly as I feel them. It's silly, but it

> still amazes me that someone does actually feel the same way, and that there

> are people out there who might actually understand! I have so often began to

> try and then find that people just don't really get it.

>

> I have always been the 'weird' one in the family. Been a bit of a tomboy

> and always struggled with relationships. Didn't fit in at home, didn't fit

> in at school and was bullied in both places. The reason I love animals more

> than people is it because with them is the only time I have ever fit and not

> been judged. We grew up with dogs & cats and they loved me unconditionally

> no matter what. Pity the rest of my family couldn't do the same. Pity the

> kids at school could give other kids a fair go, but honestly, some kids can

> be really nasty.

>

> I have had to train myself to have social skills (and still working on it).

> I am not very good at making new friends and only have a couple of very

> close friends (and it wasn't easy for them to get there). My biggest problem

> though - trust. I really struggle to let someone in. Even with my closest

> friends, I have had to have arguments with myself when I have doubted them,

> for no good reason. I am getting better at it, but if I can doubt my closest

> and long-time friends, it doesn't make it easy to make new friends! And it

> is hard as they live in other states as their work has taken them to

> different places, as has mine. And after all, if your own family betrays

> you, why would it then be easy to trust strangers?

>

> Slowly I am working on it, but it is really difficult. I know there are

> good people, and I keep trying to let them in, but I can't shake the feeling

> that I am just waiting for them to stab me in the back the moment I drop my

> guard. After all, when that is your experience growing up, over and over

> again - why would you expect any different? So I still have a long way to

> go, but looking forward to the day that I have some close friends that I can

> just call up to go see a movie, or I can call after something my Nada or

> family does to upset me and unload. Someone who I don't have to worry about

> how I am saying things, that I can just unload to...sigh.

>

> But in the meantime - I am in my late twenties, single and have decided

> that I will not wait for life to happen, but that it is time to go out and

> grasp it in both hands, even if I have to go it alone to do this at this

> time. So I am going to get ready to go celebrate the New Year, as I can't

> wait to see this one gone, dance to the music at the New Years celebrations

> in my city and watch the fireworks!

>

> And raise my glass to making some new (good) friends in the New Year! All

> the best to you and I hope you find some good people to be friends with

> also.

>

> Jodie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wow you guys, I honestly expected everyone to berate me when I admited I'm a

girly girl. Thanks for the support. I didn't realize this was such a raw

issue inside me.

Here's to being who you are -- and screw anyone who tries to make you

someone else.

By the way, in the spirit of my 100% support of gender bending, I'm

snuggling on the couch as I write this with a little boy dog I am tending

who is wearing a soft pink hoodie! He looks great - I was hoping for a drag

queen look but really it just looks kind of 80s. remember when the boys all

wore pink polos with the little alligator on the boob. . . Ha ha

Happy New Year everyone!!!

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 1:56 AM, tala_aislin wrote:

>

>

> I agree armyinlaw. In fact exactly what you said - what so often amazes me

> with this, is it is like someone else has somehow read my mind and written

> my thoughts and feelings down exactly as I feel them. It's silly, but it

> still amazes me that someone does actually feel the same way, and that there

> are people out there who might actually understand! I have so often began to

> try and then find that people just don't really get it.

>

> I have always been the 'weird' one in the family. Been a bit of a tomboy

> and always struggled with relationships. Didn't fit in at home, didn't fit

> in at school and was bullied in both places. The reason I love animals more

> than people is it because with them is the only time I have ever fit and not

> been judged. We grew up with dogs & cats and they loved me unconditionally

> no matter what. Pity the rest of my family couldn't do the same. Pity the

> kids at school could give other kids a fair go, but honestly, some kids can

> be really nasty.

>

> I have had to train myself to have social skills (and still working on it).

> I am not very good at making new friends and only have a couple of very

> close friends (and it wasn't easy for them to get there). My biggest problem

> though - trust. I really struggle to let someone in. Even with my closest

> friends, I have had to have arguments with myself when I have doubted them,

> for no good reason. I am getting better at it, but if I can doubt my closest

> and long-time friends, it doesn't make it easy to make new friends! And it

> is hard as they live in other states as their work has taken them to

> different places, as has mine. And after all, if your own family betrays

> you, why would it then be easy to trust strangers?

>

> Slowly I am working on it, but it is really difficult. I know there are

> good people, and I keep trying to let them in, but I can't shake the feeling

> that I am just waiting for them to stab me in the back the moment I drop my

> guard. After all, when that is your experience growing up, over and over

> again - why would you expect any different? So I still have a long way to

> go, but looking forward to the day that I have some close friends that I can

> just call up to go see a movie, or I can call after something my Nada or

> family does to upset me and unload. Someone who I don't have to worry about

> how I am saying things, that I can just unload to...sigh.

>

> But in the meantime - I am in my late twenties, single and have decided

> that I will not wait for life to happen, but that it is time to go out and

> grasp it in both hands, even if I have to go it alone to do this at this

> time. So I am going to get ready to go celebrate the New Year, as I can't

> wait to see this one gone, dance to the music at the New Years celebrations

> in my city and watch the fireworks!

>

> And raise my glass to making some new (good) friends in the New Year! All

> the best to you and I hope you find some good people to be friends with

> also.

>

> Jodie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wow you guys, I honestly expected everyone to berate me when I admited I'm a

girly girl. Thanks for the support. I didn't realize this was such a raw

issue inside me.

Here's to being who you are -- and screw anyone who tries to make you

someone else.

By the way, in the spirit of my 100% support of gender bending, I'm

snuggling on the couch as I write this with a little boy dog I am tending

who is wearing a soft pink hoodie! He looks great - I was hoping for a drag

queen look but really it just looks kind of 80s. remember when the boys all

wore pink polos with the little alligator on the boob. . . Ha ha

Happy New Year everyone!!!

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 1:56 AM, tala_aislin wrote:

>

>

> I agree armyinlaw. In fact exactly what you said - what so often amazes me

> with this, is it is like someone else has somehow read my mind and written

> my thoughts and feelings down exactly as I feel them. It's silly, but it

> still amazes me that someone does actually feel the same way, and that there

> are people out there who might actually understand! I have so often began to

> try and then find that people just don't really get it.

>

> I have always been the 'weird' one in the family. Been a bit of a tomboy

> and always struggled with relationships. Didn't fit in at home, didn't fit

> in at school and was bullied in both places. The reason I love animals more

> than people is it because with them is the only time I have ever fit and not

> been judged. We grew up with dogs & cats and they loved me unconditionally

> no matter what. Pity the rest of my family couldn't do the same. Pity the

> kids at school could give other kids a fair go, but honestly, some kids can

> be really nasty.

>

> I have had to train myself to have social skills (and still working on it).

> I am not very good at making new friends and only have a couple of very

> close friends (and it wasn't easy for them to get there). My biggest problem

> though - trust. I really struggle to let someone in. Even with my closest

> friends, I have had to have arguments with myself when I have doubted them,

> for no good reason. I am getting better at it, but if I can doubt my closest

> and long-time friends, it doesn't make it easy to make new friends! And it

> is hard as they live in other states as their work has taken them to

> different places, as has mine. And after all, if your own family betrays

> you, why would it then be easy to trust strangers?

>

> Slowly I am working on it, but it is really difficult. I know there are

> good people, and I keep trying to let them in, but I can't shake the feeling

> that I am just waiting for them to stab me in the back the moment I drop my

> guard. After all, when that is your experience growing up, over and over

> again - why would you expect any different? So I still have a long way to

> go, but looking forward to the day that I have some close friends that I can

> just call up to go see a movie, or I can call after something my Nada or

> family does to upset me and unload. Someone who I don't have to worry about

> how I am saying things, that I can just unload to...sigh.

>

> But in the meantime - I am in my late twenties, single and have decided

> that I will not wait for life to happen, but that it is time to go out and

> grasp it in both hands, even if I have to go it alone to do this at this

> time. So I am going to get ready to go celebrate the New Year, as I can't

> wait to see this one gone, dance to the music at the New Years celebrations

> in my city and watch the fireworks!

>

> And raise my glass to making some new (good) friends in the New Year! All

> the best to you and I hope you find some good people to be friends with

> also.

>

> Jodie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jody, this is one of those " it's like someone else has somehow read my mind

and written my thoughts & feelings down exactly as I feel them " moments for

me. All I can say is, what you said. I get it. 110%

Mia

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 3:56 AM, tala_aislin wrote:

>

>

> I agree armyinlaw. In fact exactly what you said - what so often amazes me

> with this, is it is like someone else has somehow read my mind and written

> my thoughts and feelings down exactly as I feel them. It's silly, but it

> still amazes me that someone does actually feel the same way, and that there

> are people out there who might actually understand! I have so often began to

> try and then find that people just don't really get it.

>

> I have always been the 'weird' one in the family. Been a bit of a tomboy

> and always struggled with relationships. Didn't fit in at home, didn't fit

> in at school and was bullied in both places. The reason I love animals more

> than people is it because with them is the only time I have ever fit and not

> been judged. We grew up with dogs & cats and they loved me unconditionally

> no matter what. Pity the rest of my family couldn't do the same. Pity the

> kids at school could give other kids a fair go, but honestly, some kids can

> be really nasty.

>

> I have had to train myself to have social skills (and still working on it).

> I am not very good at making new friends and only have a couple of very

> close friends (and it wasn't easy for them to get there). My biggest problem

> though - trust. I really struggle to let someone in. Even with my closest

> friends, I have had to have arguments with myself when I have doubted them,

> for no good reason. I am getting better at it, but if I can doubt my closest

> and long-time friends, it doesn't make it easy to make new friends! And it

> is hard as they live in other states as their work has taken them to

> different places, as has mine. And after all, if your own family betrays

> you, why would it then be easy to trust strangers?

>

> Slowly I am working on it, but it is really difficult. I know there are

> good people, and I keep trying to let them in, but I can't shake the feeling

> that I am just waiting for them to stab me in the back the moment I drop my

> guard. After all, when that is your experience growing up, over and over

> again - why would you expect any different? So I still have a long way to

> go, but looking forward to the day that I have some close friends that I can

> just call up to go see a movie, or I can call after something my Nada or

> family does to upset me and unload. Someone who I don't have to worry about

> how I am saying things, that I can just unload to...sigh.

>

> But in the meantime - I am in my late twenties, single and have decided

> that I will not wait for life to happen, but that it is time to go out and

> grasp it in both hands, even if I have to go it alone to do this at this

> time. So I am going to get ready to go celebrate the New Year, as I can't

> wait to see this one gone, dance to the music at the New Years celebrations

> in my city and watch the fireworks!

>

> And raise my glass to making some new (good) friends in the New Year! All

> the best to you and I hope you find some good people to be friends with

> also.

>

> Jodie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jody, this is one of those " it's like someone else has somehow read my mind

and written my thoughts & feelings down exactly as I feel them " moments for

me. All I can say is, what you said. I get it. 110%

Mia

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 3:56 AM, tala_aislin wrote:

>

>

> I agree armyinlaw. In fact exactly what you said - what so often amazes me

> with this, is it is like someone else has somehow read my mind and written

> my thoughts and feelings down exactly as I feel them. It's silly, but it

> still amazes me that someone does actually feel the same way, and that there

> are people out there who might actually understand! I have so often began to

> try and then find that people just don't really get it.

>

> I have always been the 'weird' one in the family. Been a bit of a tomboy

> and always struggled with relationships. Didn't fit in at home, didn't fit

> in at school and was bullied in both places. The reason I love animals more

> than people is it because with them is the only time I have ever fit and not

> been judged. We grew up with dogs & cats and they loved me unconditionally

> no matter what. Pity the rest of my family couldn't do the same. Pity the

> kids at school could give other kids a fair go, but honestly, some kids can

> be really nasty.

>

> I have had to train myself to have social skills (and still working on it).

> I am not very good at making new friends and only have a couple of very

> close friends (and it wasn't easy for them to get there). My biggest problem

> though - trust. I really struggle to let someone in. Even with my closest

> friends, I have had to have arguments with myself when I have doubted them,

> for no good reason. I am getting better at it, but if I can doubt my closest

> and long-time friends, it doesn't make it easy to make new friends! And it

> is hard as they live in other states as their work has taken them to

> different places, as has mine. And after all, if your own family betrays

> you, why would it then be easy to trust strangers?

>

> Slowly I am working on it, but it is really difficult. I know there are

> good people, and I keep trying to let them in, but I can't shake the feeling

> that I am just waiting for them to stab me in the back the moment I drop my

> guard. After all, when that is your experience growing up, over and over

> again - why would you expect any different? So I still have a long way to

> go, but looking forward to the day that I have some close friends that I can

> just call up to go see a movie, or I can call after something my Nada or

> family does to upset me and unload. Someone who I don't have to worry about

> how I am saying things, that I can just unload to...sigh.

>

> But in the meantime - I am in my late twenties, single and have decided

> that I will not wait for life to happen, but that it is time to go out and

> grasp it in both hands, even if I have to go it alone to do this at this

> time. So I am going to get ready to go celebrate the New Year, as I can't

> wait to see this one gone, dance to the music at the New Years celebrations

> in my city and watch the fireworks!

>

> And raise my glass to making some new (good) friends in the New Year! All

> the best to you and I hope you find some good people to be friends with

> also.

>

> Jodie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Okay, I'll throw my 2 cents into the mix here. Nadas in competition with their

pretty daughters--hoo boy do I know how that one goes. Nada chopped all my hair

off until I turned 15 and put my foot down that I was growing it. But even

before that, she enlisted Fada and Brudda on the " kill that pretty girl's

esteem " project. I was told repeatedly, every day, that I was ugly and fat.

Their favorite saying was, " You look like a moose. " A moose. How about that?

Meanwhile, when I left the house and went among strangers, I was complimented

and told I was pretty. Pretty is as pretty is, even if you chop all the hair off

of it and put it in boy's clothing. A good face and bone structure shows

through. Thank God for strangers and acquaintances, who said nice things to my

face, about my face.

Nada really escalated her campaign when I grew my hair long at 15 and sent me

out the door to school every single morning with affirmations of how ugly I was.

I was hideous, she cried, I was a mess! Then I would get to school. My long,

shiny, wavy hair was the object of compliments and discussion. How did I make it

so shiny and thick? It was the hair issue that really made me see, as a young

teen, that my family had a very skewed way of viewing me, and it wasn't based in

real fact. By the time I was 16, I had completely hardened my mind and heart

against Nada and Fada's opinions of me. I went out into the world with the

confidence that the world was much kinder and more accepting than my family.

BTW, just to finally prove them wrong about my looks, I entered a beauty pageant

at 18 and won 1st Runner Up. I treasure that trophy, because it was my triumph

over their vicious PR campaign to ruin my confidence. What I treasure from that

experience was learning that if I was afraid to do something, I went ahead and

did it anyway. I try lots of stuff and fail, but the triumph is in the trying.

AFB

> > > >

> > > > Wow the girly girl thing really interests me speaking of that.

> Maybe I

> > > > should start a new thread? So I am actually extremely girly girly,

> I love

> > > > pink, I wear dresses and skirts just about every day (I mean even

> on

> > > > Saturday, people, to take out the trash). I'm not the cupcake type

> > > though, I

> > > > am somewhere between classic feminine (trench coats, tailored

> suits) and

> > > > gothic (black, lace, fishnets etc) in my personal look.

> > > >

> > > > Anyway, growing up I was pretty much forced to be a tom boy. My

> dad took

> > > me

> > > > everywhere with the boys. I shot guns. I trained herding dogs. I

> hunted.

> > > I

> > > > fished. I hiked. I am probably a better route finder and map

> reader than

> > > > most men, definitly better than my 300 lb, 6 foot 5 boyfriend. As

> a kid,

> > > I

> > > > wore boys clothes, hiking boots, tennis shoes and baseball caps

> (that's

> > > > about all I had). I wore jeans every day (I do not like jeans, I

> like

> > > > dresses by the way). My mom dressed me in army green and overalls

> even

> > > when

> > > > I was 1 and 2 years old. She also chopped my hair off even though

> I

> > > begged

> > > > her not too and cried and cried.

> > > >

> > > > So I'm guessing that this girly girl stuff is just a personality

> trait.

> > > I've

> > > > always gotten along great with tom boy women, I totally get it

> having

> > > lived

> > > > it myself. I just can't be that. Even talking about this now makes

> me

> > > feel

> > > > like every single person on this list is going to hate me for

> being

> > > > feminine. But cognitively, i know - why would you hate me for that

> any

> > > more

> > > > than you would hate my boyfriend for loving the color purple in

> all its

> > > > shades even though he's a dude. I mean, its just a personal

> preference.

> > > I'm

> > > > not saying anyone else should wear a cute skirt and leggings to

> take out

> > > the

> > > > trash, its just thats what I would like to wear and I'm over 21 so

> I get

> > > to

> > > > choose.

> > > >

> > > > Still, experience has not held this to be true for me. My

> > > ex-mother-in-law

> > > > gave me the feeling she wanted to murder me when I acted feminine

> just

> > > > because I wore a modest amount of make-up, earrings, or little

> things

> > > like

> > > > that .My nada - well you know that story. My boss - who is a

> little cream

> > > > puff of a woman, helpless act and all (I do not do the " but I'm

> just a

> > > girl "

> > > > thing by the way) tells me I should wear pants, fusses over my

> hair

> > > (which

> > > > is long) and criticizes my style and all that stuff.

> > > >

> > > > I can pretty much relate to the way a young man might feel who has

> known

> > > he

> > > > is gay his entire life. His culture hates him for who he is.

> Though being

> > > > girly hardly seems like it is deserving of extreme hatred. . .

> Wow, I

> > > knew

> > > > this was a nerve, but I don't know if I really knew how big and

> raw a

> > > nerve.

> > > >

> > > > Well, talk to me about that. I don't think its a matter of being

> girly or

> > > > not, I think its a matter of beiing hated for who you are on the

> inside.

> > > I

> > > > can remember being 2 years old and wanting to wear dresses and not

> being

> > > > allowed to wear them.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for listening guys. It's like layers of an onion, just when

> I

> > > think

> > > > I've gotten one off, I find another.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Okay, I'll throw my 2 cents into the mix here. Nadas in competition with their

pretty daughters--hoo boy do I know how that one goes. Nada chopped all my hair

off until I turned 15 and put my foot down that I was growing it. But even

before that, she enlisted Fada and Brudda on the " kill that pretty girl's

esteem " project. I was told repeatedly, every day, that I was ugly and fat.

Their favorite saying was, " You look like a moose. " A moose. How about that?

Meanwhile, when I left the house and went among strangers, I was complimented

and told I was pretty. Pretty is as pretty is, even if you chop all the hair off

of it and put it in boy's clothing. A good face and bone structure shows

through. Thank God for strangers and acquaintances, who said nice things to my

face, about my face.

Nada really escalated her campaign when I grew my hair long at 15 and sent me

out the door to school every single morning with affirmations of how ugly I was.

I was hideous, she cried, I was a mess! Then I would get to school. My long,

shiny, wavy hair was the object of compliments and discussion. How did I make it

so shiny and thick? It was the hair issue that really made me see, as a young

teen, that my family had a very skewed way of viewing me, and it wasn't based in

real fact. By the time I was 16, I had completely hardened my mind and heart

against Nada and Fada's opinions of me. I went out into the world with the

confidence that the world was much kinder and more accepting than my family.

BTW, just to finally prove them wrong about my looks, I entered a beauty pageant

at 18 and won 1st Runner Up. I treasure that trophy, because it was my triumph

over their vicious PR campaign to ruin my confidence. What I treasure from that

experience was learning that if I was afraid to do something, I went ahead and

did it anyway. I try lots of stuff and fail, but the triumph is in the trying.

AFB

> > > >

> > > > Wow the girly girl thing really interests me speaking of that.

> Maybe I

> > > > should start a new thread? So I am actually extremely girly girly,

> I love

> > > > pink, I wear dresses and skirts just about every day (I mean even

> on

> > > > Saturday, people, to take out the trash). I'm not the cupcake type

> > > though, I

> > > > am somewhere between classic feminine (trench coats, tailored

> suits) and

> > > > gothic (black, lace, fishnets etc) in my personal look.

> > > >

> > > > Anyway, growing up I was pretty much forced to be a tom boy. My

> dad took

> > > me

> > > > everywhere with the boys. I shot guns. I trained herding dogs. I

> hunted.

> > > I

> > > > fished. I hiked. I am probably a better route finder and map

> reader than

> > > > most men, definitly better than my 300 lb, 6 foot 5 boyfriend. As

> a kid,

> > > I

> > > > wore boys clothes, hiking boots, tennis shoes and baseball caps

> (that's

> > > > about all I had). I wore jeans every day (I do not like jeans, I

> like

> > > > dresses by the way). My mom dressed me in army green and overalls

> even

> > > when

> > > > I was 1 and 2 years old. She also chopped my hair off even though

> I

> > > begged

> > > > her not too and cried and cried.

> > > >

> > > > So I'm guessing that this girly girl stuff is just a personality

> trait.

> > > I've

> > > > always gotten along great with tom boy women, I totally get it

> having

> > > lived

> > > > it myself. I just can't be that. Even talking about this now makes

> me

> > > feel

> > > > like every single person on this list is going to hate me for

> being

> > > > feminine. But cognitively, i know - why would you hate me for that

> any

> > > more

> > > > than you would hate my boyfriend for loving the color purple in

> all its

> > > > shades even though he's a dude. I mean, its just a personal

> preference.

> > > I'm

> > > > not saying anyone else should wear a cute skirt and leggings to

> take out

> > > the

> > > > trash, its just thats what I would like to wear and I'm over 21 so

> I get

> > > to

> > > > choose.

> > > >

> > > > Still, experience has not held this to be true for me. My

> > > ex-mother-in-law

> > > > gave me the feeling she wanted to murder me when I acted feminine

> just

> > > > because I wore a modest amount of make-up, earrings, or little

> things

> > > like

> > > > that .My nada - well you know that story. My boss - who is a

> little cream

> > > > puff of a woman, helpless act and all (I do not do the " but I'm

> just a

> > > girl "

> > > > thing by the way) tells me I should wear pants, fusses over my

> hair

> > > (which

> > > > is long) and criticizes my style and all that stuff.

> > > >

> > > > I can pretty much relate to the way a young man might feel who has

> known

> > > he

> > > > is gay his entire life. His culture hates him for who he is.

> Though being

> > > > girly hardly seems like it is deserving of extreme hatred. . .

> Wow, I

> > > knew

> > > > this was a nerve, but I don't know if I really knew how big and

> raw a

> > > nerve.

> > > >

> > > > Well, talk to me about that. I don't think its a matter of being

> girly or

> > > > not, I think its a matter of beiing hated for who you are on the

> inside.

> > > I

> > > > can remember being 2 years old and wanting to wear dresses and not

> being

> > > > allowed to wear them.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for listening guys. It's like layers of an onion, just when

> I

> > > think

> > > > I've gotten one off, I find another.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

AFB,that's just fabulous that you not only entered yourself in that beauty

pageant but you won first Runner Up! Talk about giving the FOO and their

bullshit the finger---that really is a triumph of your own courage and choosing

to believe in you.Great story,wow!

I totally agree with you that the triumph is in the trying.And learning

that we can be afraid and do it anyway

>

> Okay, I'll throw my 2 cents into the mix here. Nadas in competition with their

pretty daughters--hoo boy do I know how that one goes. Nada chopped all my hair

off until I turned 15 and put my foot down that I was growing it. But even

before that, she enlisted Fada and Brudda on the " kill that pretty girl's

esteem " project. I was told repeatedly, every day, that I was ugly and fat.

Their favorite saying was, " You look like a moose. " A moose. How about that?

Meanwhile, when I left the house and went among strangers, I was complimented

and told I was pretty. Pretty is as pretty is, even if you chop all the hair off

of it and put it in boy's clothing. A good face and bone structure shows

through. Thank God for strangers and acquaintances, who said nice things to my

face, about my face.

>

> Nada really escalated her campaign when I grew my hair long at 15 and sent me

out the door to school every single morning with affirmations of how ugly I was.

I was hideous, she cried, I was a mess! Then I would get to school. My long,

shiny, wavy hair was the object of compliments and discussion. How did I make it

so shiny and thick? It was the hair issue that really made me see, as a young

teen, that my family had a very skewed way of viewing me, and it wasn't based in

real fact. By the time I was 16, I had completely hardened my mind and heart

against Nada and Fada's opinions of me. I went out into the world with the

confidence that the world was much kinder and more accepting than my family.

>

> BTW, just to finally prove them wrong about my looks, I entered a beauty

pageant at 18 and won 1st Runner Up. I treasure that trophy, because it was my

triumph over their vicious PR campaign to ruin my confidence. What I treasure

from that experience was learning that if I was afraid to do something, I went

ahead and did it anyway. I try lots of stuff and fail, but the triumph is in the

trying.

> AFB