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Re: Nada's New Idea... What to do?

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Posted
Posted

I think you will benefit most from consulting with an expert or experts in elder

law and elder care issues. Possibly your local social services department can

give you some insights and information that will help. Maybe there is a

psychologist in your area that specializes in geriatrics that you can consult

with. There is never just one and only one solution, and there might be options

for you and your nada that you aren't even aware of.

Me personally, I already know that I cannot and will not undertake the personal

care of my nada when she reaches the point of needing assisted living. I've

already done that for her on a temporary basis (three months of living with her

24/7 to provide post-operative nursing care) and it made me nearly suicidally

depressed. Sister (at least until recently) was willing to supervise nada's

finances and we're both going to make sure that nada has a place to live, food

and medical care even if we don't provide it personally; we're willing to

supervise it.

This issue is something only you can decide, its your quality of life and your

marriage and your mental health at stake.

Sometimes when I'm having a hard time making a decision, it helps me to make a

comparative list: the good aspects of this vs the bad aspects. Maybe that will

help you too. Its really, really good that you don't have to make this decision

right away.

I feel for your anguish; choosing to provide care-giving for my nada when she is

mentally ill and so intractably abusive would be like a living death for me. I

hope you find something that works for you.

-Annie

>

> Hi again to everyone. This is going to be a very long post. I ask everyone

to bear with me because I need all of the help and advice I can get on this one,

and only this group can really help me.

>

> As I mentioned in my introduction a couple of wks ago, my step father died

back in July, leaving nada entirely alone (for the first time in her life) with

a 32 acre mess due to their 20+ yrs of hoarding. Hubby and I live 2 1/2 hrs

away from nada, and this past year, taking care of her has literally sucked our

lives away. Every Saturday though the end of November was spent taking care of

nada and her farm mess with only myself and my husband to do the work.

>

> Being the oldest of 2 kids and the only one left now to take care of nada

leaves me in something of a bind legally, or soon will, when it comes to her

care. I have always known that day would eventually come, still not sure how I

will handle it.

>

> Nada is a real estate broker and understands she desperately needs to move as

soon as possible, but it seems to be taking forever to get the place ready, for

obvious reasons. I know I can't live the next few years like this, nada sucking

up every free moment because she's destitute and living in a place that is

literally falling apart around her, while expecting me and hubby to get there

every time she needs/wants us. Last night during my nightly " nada sitting chat "

online we were discussing again about finding her a new house as soon as

possible, so she began looking through the MLS listings yet again. She sent me

1 listing, and now wants me and hubby to make a life altering decision. This is

what I need help with.

>

> What nada has proposed is a property, not necessarily this one but another

similar to it, near where she lives now (which is over an hour closer for hubby

to work and back every day) that has acreage, 10+ acres... with 2 houses... one

for us and one for nada. She wants us to be " neighbors " on the same property.

She spent 2 hrs pointing out all of the positive aspects of doing such a thing,

which, to an average person would make a whole world of sense. If not for the

BPD situation I would probably already be packing... lol

>

> Nada and I discussed some rules, she agreed it would all be drawn up by a

lawyer, giving hubby and myself all legal rights to " our " house up front, and

the entire property would be given to us in her will. I was adamant that I

would not even consider such a thing if she left one of the houses to my sister.

I have no relationship with my sister, she may also suffer with the BPD, not

sure... but she is an extremely cruel and unpleasant person to be around, so I

simply have a NC relationship with her that has worked for both of us for 20+

yrs. Nada agreed happily, and said she would do it immediately as part of our

legal arrangement when the property was purchased.

>

> Nada is thinking of paying for this entire new property so hubby and I can

eliminate our house payment, and she has discussed splitting taxes with us in a

way that would work for all. The financial end of this would be a huge help and

plus for me and hubby and would allow us to better help our kids as they need it

from time to time. This arrangement also includes allowing me use of the land

and outbuildings for my own fish wholesale business, something I have been doing

small scale for yrs now due to lack of space and finances to expand in any way.

(in this business the only way to make decent money is large scale wholesale)

Nada agreed that this would also be written into the legal documents to avoid

any conflicts that may arise through the rest of her life with us as neighbors.

>

> There were many plus's to considering this arrangement, so I discussed it with

hubby this morning. He also wishes to hear the opinions of the group before we

discuss it again.

>

> Taking care of nada now that she is getting old is something I will have to do

regardless of where I live. This arrangement would make that much easier and

less time consuming... however, as you all know already, it isn't just that

simple. I can imagine some of you are cringing just at the thought of such a

thing.

>

> I know talk is cheap, legal documents or not. The day to day stress of living

next door is what I am concerned about. In our current situation 2 1/2 hrs away

she made a comment one night at about 1am " I'm hungry, I wish you lived closer

because you could make me something to eat and bring it over " . At that moment I

was forever grateful to be living so far away and vowed to never live closer to

her again. Hubby and I talked then about her demanding and controlling ways and

what it would be like to live near her. The thought of it still makes me feel

ill sometimes.

>

> I know that doing something like this will keep her front and center in our

lives for the rest of hers... but I guess my question is, how much worse could

it be than having to travel so far (with me not able to drive anymore) to take

care of her for the rest of her life? Either way she will be sucking my life

away... which makes more sense? The property, upon her death, would leave me

and hubby set for life, no question about that. Am I talking about selling my

soul without realizing it?

>

> Nada knows we can't move for at least the next 3 yrs... that is the other part

of this thing I need help with. The place she is in now is killing me and hubby

with trying to take care of her and it. Its falling apart around her and so

full of antiques mixed with junk, cat piss, and filth that it makes me ill just

thinking about it. I am concerned that in nada's big new adventure she is going

to drag her feet on the current house, holding out for the next 3 yrs when we're

able to move, to set up the above mentioned situation. I know neither hubby nor

I can survive another 3 yrs of the way things are now. That is without

question. Its just too much for the 2 of us. Our own house is now starting to

fall apart around us because we are never home enough to take care of it

anymore, we're too busy with the never ending work at nada's farm. That is what

has sucked our lives away and what has caused me such excessive stress... and

ultimately, what eventually led me here to this group. I was desperate enough

only a few weeks ago to ask the help of an online friend who is a shrink... as I

feared for my own sanity.

>

> So, the big question... what would you do? How would you all approach such a

situation? If asked honestly, yes, I am considering this because of some of

the good points. Hubby agrees with me there... but that OVERWHELMING FEAR of

having her front and center in our faces 24/7 with her demands and insults... is

looming near. I have always expected that when she reaches a point of needing

more care than I can give, a live in caregiver is the only option that makes any

sense. Her insurance is enough that it shouldn't be too difficult, but unless

it is medically needed, the expense would all be on me, and the way things are

right now, I simply could not afford that. This situation would help resolve

that, I don't mind the extra house cleaning if she's not standing over me giving

me instructions each time. I can help with her cooking by doing it at home and

running it over to her house once/day or every other day... and there would be

times I wouldn't mind " short " visits with her in our home. But how to set

livable boundaries for something like this? I can never again put myself out

there where she KNOWS I am at her mercy... never ever again. Be it financially

or emotionally.. I can't do that again.

> How would you do it? I keep thinking there has to be a way to make this work,

just the how that evades me.

>

> Hubby sends his thanks in advance, as do I, for any contributions to this

post. I knew the day would come that I'd have to make the hard choices (as if

life hasn't been hard enough already) but I didn't expect it quite this soon. I

am so grateful I have this group now to help me with these decisions... and to

support me no matter how I choose to proceed. The understanding and caring in

this group is unmatched anywhere I have ever been before in my life.

>

> I look forward to all of your replies!

>

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Posted
Posted

I can't tell you what to do---but I can share the first thought I had reading

your post: I'd be very concerned that living " next door " on the same property

with nada wouldn't appease her at all but would rather feed her bottomless pit

of need...that by allying yourselves financially with your nada in this way that

you could be entrapping yourselves.Entering into such an arrangement will do

nothing to improve your nada's disorder and could even serve to fuel it further

because she will then have you bound to her...My honest opinion to take or

leave---I think that if you have to ask yourself if you might be " selling your

soul to the devil " ,you are having well founded suspicions and misgivings.

>

> Hi again to everyone. This is going to be a very long post. I ask everyone

to bear with me because I need all of the help and advice I can get on this one,

and only this group can really help me.

>

> As I mentioned in my introduction a couple of wks ago, my step father died

back in July, leaving nada entirely alone (for the first time in her life) with

a 32 acre mess due to their 20+ yrs of hoarding. Hubby and I live 2 1/2 hrs

away from nada, and this past year, taking care of her has literally sucked our

lives away. Every Saturday though the end of November was spent taking care of

nada and her farm mess with only myself and my husband to do the work.

>

> Being the oldest of 2 kids and the only one left now to take care of nada

leaves me in something of a bind legally, or soon will, when it comes to her

care. I have always known that day would eventually come, still not sure how I

will handle it.

>

> Nada is a real estate broker and understands she desperately needs to move as

soon as possible, but it seems to be taking forever to get the place ready, for

obvious reasons. I know I can't live the next few years like this, nada sucking

up every free moment because she's destitute and living in a place that is

literally falling apart around her, while expecting me and hubby to get there

every time she needs/wants us. Last night during my nightly " nada sitting chat "

online we were discussing again about finding her a new house as soon as

possible, so she began looking through the MLS listings yet again. She sent me

1 listing, and now wants me and hubby to make a life altering decision. This is

what I need help with.

>

> What nada has proposed is a property, not necessarily this one but another

similar to it, near where she lives now (which is over an hour closer for hubby

to work and back every day) that has acreage, 10+ acres... with 2 houses... one

for us and one for nada. She wants us to be " neighbors " on the same property.

She spent 2 hrs pointing out all of the positive aspects of doing such a thing,

which, to an average person would make a whole world of sense. If not for the

BPD situation I would probably already be packing... lol

>

> Nada and I discussed some rules, she agreed it would all be drawn up by a

lawyer, giving hubby and myself all legal rights to " our " house up front, and

the entire property would be given to us in her will. I was adamant that I

would not even consider such a thing if she left one of the houses to my sister.

I have no relationship with my sister, she may also suffer with the BPD, not

sure... but she is an extremely cruel and unpleasant person to be around, so I

simply have a NC relationship with her that has worked for both of us for 20+

yrs. Nada agreed happily, and said she would do it immediately as part of our

legal arrangement when the property was purchased.

>

> Nada is thinking of paying for this entire new property so hubby and I can

eliminate our house payment, and she has discussed splitting taxes with us in a

way that would work for all. The financial end of this would be a huge help and

plus for me and hubby and would allow us to better help our kids as they need it

from time to time. This arrangement also includes allowing me use of the land

and outbuildings for my own fish wholesale business, something I have been doing

small scale for yrs now due to lack of space and finances to expand in any way.

(in this business the only way to make decent money is large scale wholesale)

Nada agreed that this would also be written into the legal documents to avoid

any conflicts that may arise through the rest of her life with us as neighbors.

>

> There were many plus's to considering this arrangement, so I discussed it with

hubby this morning. He also wishes to hear the opinions of the group before we

discuss it again.

>

> Taking care of nada now that she is getting old is something I will have to do

regardless of where I live. This arrangement would make that much easier and

less time consuming... however, as you all know already, it isn't just that

simple. I can imagine some of you are cringing just at the thought of such a

thing.

>

> I know talk is cheap, legal documents or not. The day to day stress of living

next door is what I am concerned about. In our current situation 2 1/2 hrs away

she made a comment one night at about 1am " I'm hungry, I wish you lived closer

because you could make me something to eat and bring it over " . At that moment I

was forever grateful to be living so far away and vowed to never live closer to

her again. Hubby and I talked then about her demanding and controlling ways and

what it would be like to live near her. The thought of it still makes me feel

ill sometimes.

>

> I know that doing something like this will keep her front and center in our

lives for the rest of hers... but I guess my question is, how much worse could

it be than having to travel so far (with me not able to drive anymore) to take

care of her for the rest of her life? Either way she will be sucking my life

away... which makes more sense? The property, upon her death, would leave me

and hubby set for life, no question about that. Am I talking about selling my

soul without realizing it?

>

> Nada knows we can't move for at least the next 3 yrs... that is the other part

of this thing I need help with. The place she is in now is killing me and hubby

with trying to take care of her and it. Its falling apart around her and so

full of antiques mixed with junk, cat piss, and filth that it makes me ill just

thinking about it. I am concerned that in nada's big new adventure she is going

to drag her feet on the current house, holding out for the next 3 yrs when we're

able to move, to set up the above mentioned situation. I know neither hubby nor

I can survive another 3 yrs of the way things are now. That is without

question. Its just too much for the 2 of us. Our own house is now starting to

fall apart around us because we are never home enough to take care of it

anymore, we're too busy with the never ending work at nada's farm. That is what

has sucked our lives away and what has caused me such excessive stress... and

ultimately, what eventually led me here to this group. I was desperate enough

only a few weeks ago to ask the help of an online friend who is a shrink... as I

feared for my own sanity.

>

> So, the big question... what would you do? How would you all approach such a

situation? If asked honestly, yes, I am considering this because of some of

the good points. Hubby agrees with me there... but that OVERWHELMING FEAR of

having her front and center in our faces 24/7 with her demands and insults... is

looming near. I have always expected that when she reaches a point of needing

more care than I can give, a live in caregiver is the only option that makes any

sense. Her insurance is enough that it shouldn't be too difficult, but unless

it is medically needed, the expense would all be on me, and the way things are

right now, I simply could not afford that. This situation would help resolve

that, I don't mind the extra house cleaning if she's not standing over me giving

me instructions each time. I can help with her cooking by doing it at home and

running it over to her house once/day or every other day... and there would be

times I wouldn't mind " short " visits with her in our home. But how to set

livable boundaries for something like this? I can never again put myself out

there where she KNOWS I am at her mercy... never ever again. Be it financially

or emotionally.. I can't do that again.

> How would you do it? I keep thinking there has to be a way to make this work,

just the how that evades me.

>

> Hubby sends his thanks in advance, as do I, for any contributions to this

post. I knew the day would come that I'd have to make the hard choices (as if

life hasn't been hard enough already) but I didn't expect it quite this soon. I

am so grateful I have this group now to help me with these decisions... and to

support me no matter how I choose to proceed. The understanding and caring in

this group is unmatched anywhere I have ever been before in my life.

>

> I look forward to all of your replies!

>

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Posted
Posted

I can't tell you what to do---but I can share the first thought I had reading

your post: I'd be very concerned that living " next door " on the same property

with nada wouldn't appease her at all but would rather feed her bottomless pit

of need...that by allying yourselves financially with your nada in this way that

you could be entrapping yourselves.Entering into such an arrangement will do

nothing to improve your nada's disorder and could even serve to fuel it further

because she will then have you bound to her...My honest opinion to take or

leave---I think that if you have to ask yourself if you might be " selling your

soul to the devil " ,you are having well founded suspicions and misgivings.

>

> Hi again to everyone. This is going to be a very long post. I ask everyone

to bear with me because I need all of the help and advice I can get on this one,

and only this group can really help me.

>

> As I mentioned in my introduction a couple of wks ago, my step father died

back in July, leaving nada entirely alone (for the first time in her life) with

a 32 acre mess due to their 20+ yrs of hoarding. Hubby and I live 2 1/2 hrs

away from nada, and this past year, taking care of her has literally sucked our

lives away. Every Saturday though the end of November was spent taking care of

nada and her farm mess with only myself and my husband to do the work.

>

> Being the oldest of 2 kids and the only one left now to take care of nada

leaves me in something of a bind legally, or soon will, when it comes to her

care. I have always known that day would eventually come, still not sure how I

will handle it.

>

> Nada is a real estate broker and understands she desperately needs to move as

soon as possible, but it seems to be taking forever to get the place ready, for

obvious reasons. I know I can't live the next few years like this, nada sucking

up every free moment because she's destitute and living in a place that is

literally falling apart around her, while expecting me and hubby to get there

every time she needs/wants us. Last night during my nightly " nada sitting chat "

online we were discussing again about finding her a new house as soon as

possible, so she began looking through the MLS listings yet again. She sent me

1 listing, and now wants me and hubby to make a life altering decision. This is

what I need help with.

>

> What nada has proposed is a property, not necessarily this one but another

similar to it, near where she lives now (which is over an hour closer for hubby

to work and back every day) that has acreage, 10+ acres... with 2 houses... one

for us and one for nada. She wants us to be " neighbors " on the same property.

She spent 2 hrs pointing out all of the positive aspects of doing such a thing,

which, to an average person would make a whole world of sense. If not for the

BPD situation I would probably already be packing... lol

>

> Nada and I discussed some rules, she agreed it would all be drawn up by a

lawyer, giving hubby and myself all legal rights to " our " house up front, and

the entire property would be given to us in her will. I was adamant that I

would not even consider such a thing if she left one of the houses to my sister.

I have no relationship with my sister, she may also suffer with the BPD, not

sure... but she is an extremely cruel and unpleasant person to be around, so I

simply have a NC relationship with her that has worked for both of us for 20+

yrs. Nada agreed happily, and said she would do it immediately as part of our

legal arrangement when the property was purchased.

>

> Nada is thinking of paying for this entire new property so hubby and I can

eliminate our house payment, and she has discussed splitting taxes with us in a

way that would work for all. The financial end of this would be a huge help and

plus for me and hubby and would allow us to better help our kids as they need it

from time to time. This arrangement also includes allowing me use of the land

and outbuildings for my own fish wholesale business, something I have been doing

small scale for yrs now due to lack of space and finances to expand in any way.

(in this business the only way to make decent money is large scale wholesale)

Nada agreed that this would also be written into the legal documents to avoid

any conflicts that may arise through the rest of her life with us as neighbors.

>

> There were many plus's to considering this arrangement, so I discussed it with

hubby this morning. He also wishes to hear the opinions of the group before we

discuss it again.

>

> Taking care of nada now that she is getting old is something I will have to do

regardless of where I live. This arrangement would make that much easier and

less time consuming... however, as you all know already, it isn't just that

simple. I can imagine some of you are cringing just at the thought of such a

thing.

>

> I know talk is cheap, legal documents or not. The day to day stress of living

next door is what I am concerned about. In our current situation 2 1/2 hrs away

she made a comment one night at about 1am " I'm hungry, I wish you lived closer

because you could make me something to eat and bring it over " . At that moment I

was forever grateful to be living so far away and vowed to never live closer to

her again. Hubby and I talked then about her demanding and controlling ways and

what it would be like to live near her. The thought of it still makes me feel

ill sometimes.

>

> I know that doing something like this will keep her front and center in our

lives for the rest of hers... but I guess my question is, how much worse could

it be than having to travel so far (with me not able to drive anymore) to take

care of her for the rest of her life? Either way she will be sucking my life

away... which makes more sense? The property, upon her death, would leave me

and hubby set for life, no question about that. Am I talking about selling my

soul without realizing it?

>

> Nada knows we can't move for at least the next 3 yrs... that is the other part

of this thing I need help with. The place she is in now is killing me and hubby

with trying to take care of her and it. Its falling apart around her and so

full of antiques mixed with junk, cat piss, and filth that it makes me ill just

thinking about it. I am concerned that in nada's big new adventure she is going

to drag her feet on the current house, holding out for the next 3 yrs when we're

able to move, to set up the above mentioned situation. I know neither hubby nor

I can survive another 3 yrs of the way things are now. That is without

question. Its just too much for the 2 of us. Our own house is now starting to

fall apart around us because we are never home enough to take care of it

anymore, we're too busy with the never ending work at nada's farm. That is what

has sucked our lives away and what has caused me such excessive stress... and

ultimately, what eventually led me here to this group. I was desperate enough

only a few weeks ago to ask the help of an online friend who is a shrink... as I

feared for my own sanity.

>

> So, the big question... what would you do? How would you all approach such a

situation? If asked honestly, yes, I am considering this because of some of

the good points. Hubby agrees with me there... but that OVERWHELMING FEAR of

having her front and center in our faces 24/7 with her demands and insults... is

looming near. I have always expected that when she reaches a point of needing

more care than I can give, a live in caregiver is the only option that makes any

sense. Her insurance is enough that it shouldn't be too difficult, but unless

it is medically needed, the expense would all be on me, and the way things are

right now, I simply could not afford that. This situation would help resolve

that, I don't mind the extra house cleaning if she's not standing over me giving

me instructions each time. I can help with her cooking by doing it at home and

running it over to her house once/day or every other day... and there would be

times I wouldn't mind " short " visits with her in our home. But how to set

livable boundaries for something like this? I can never again put myself out

there where she KNOWS I am at her mercy... never ever again. Be it financially

or emotionally.. I can't do that again.

> How would you do it? I keep thinking there has to be a way to make this work,

just the how that evades me.

>

> Hubby sends his thanks in advance, as do I, for any contributions to this

post. I knew the day would come that I'd have to make the hard choices (as if

life hasn't been hard enough already) but I didn't expect it quite this soon. I

am so grateful I have this group now to help me with these decisions... and to

support me no matter how I choose to proceed. The understanding and caring in

this group is unmatched anywhere I have ever been before in my life.

>

> I look forward to all of your replies!

>

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Posted
Posted

Army in law,

WOW! Time for some tough love:

1- Your nada is driving you nuts. She won't " let " you sleep. She won't " let "

you have a Saturday alone with your husband and family. And you are thinking

of moving next door? Wow!

2- are you really considering sharing landed, taxes and financial

arrangements with a BPD? Wow!

3- The degree that you take on your nada's problems - her mess on her

property, her old age etc are entirely your choice. But it worries me that

you act like you have none.

My advice is to read through your own words again - every worry, every

nagging thought - that indicates to me what your answer should be!

Please do not dive deeper in to this relationship that has only brought you

grief.

Girlscout

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:02 PM, christine.depizan <

christine.depizan@...> wrote:

>

>

> I can't tell you what to do---but I can share the first thought I had

> reading your post: I'd be very concerned that living " next door " on the same

> property with nada wouldn't appease her at all but would rather feed her

> bottomless pit of need...that by allying yourselves financially with your

> nada in this way that you could be entrapping yourselves.Entering into such

> an arrangement will do nothing to improve your nada's disorder and could

> even serve to fuel it further because she will then have you bound to

> her...My honest opinion to take or leave---I think that if you have to ask

> yourself if you might be " selling your soul to the devil " ,you are having

> well founded suspicions and misgivings.

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Hi again to everyone. This is going to be a very long post. I ask

> everyone to bear with me because I need all of the help and advice I can get

> on this one, and only this group can really help me.

> >

> > As I mentioned in my introduction a couple of wks ago, my step father

> died back in July, leaving nada entirely alone (for the first time in her

> life) with a 32 acre mess due to their 20+ yrs of hoarding. Hubby and I live

> 2 1/2 hrs away from nada, and this past year, taking care of her has

> literally sucked our lives away. Every Saturday though the end of November

> was spent taking care of nada and her farm mess with only myself and my

> husband to do the work.

> >

> > Being the oldest of 2 kids and the only one left now to take care of nada

> leaves me in something of a bind legally, or soon will, when it comes to her

> care. I have always known that day would eventually come, still not sure how

> I will handle it.

> >

> > Nada is a real estate broker and understands she desperately needs to

> move as soon as possible, but it seems to be taking forever to get the place

> ready, for obvious reasons. I know I can't live the next few years like

> this, nada sucking up every free moment because she's destitute and living

> in a place that is literally falling apart around her, while expecting me

> and hubby to get there every time she needs/wants us. Last night during my

> nightly " nada sitting chat " online we were discussing again about finding

> her a new house as soon as possible, so she began looking through the MLS

> listings yet again. She sent me 1 listing, and now wants me and hubby to

> make a life altering decision. This is what I need help with.

> >

> > What nada has proposed is a property, not necessarily this one but

> another similar to it, near where she lives now (which is over an hour

> closer for hubby to work and back every day) that has acreage, 10+ acres...

> with 2 houses... one for us and one for nada. She wants us to be " neighbors "

> on the same property. She spent 2 hrs pointing out all of the positive

> aspects of doing such a thing, which, to an average person would make a

> whole world of sense. If not for the BPD situation I would probably already

> be packing... lol

> >

> > Nada and I discussed some rules, she agreed it would all be drawn up by a

> lawyer, giving hubby and myself all legal rights to " our " house up front,

> and the entire property would be given to us in her will. I was adamant that

> I would not even consider such a thing if she left one of the houses to my

> sister. I have no relationship with my sister, she may also suffer with the

> BPD, not sure... but she is an extremely cruel and unpleasant person to be

> around, so I simply have a NC relationship with her that has worked for both

> of us for 20+ yrs. Nada agreed happily, and said she would do it immediately

> as part of our legal arrangement when the property was purchased.

> >

> > Nada is thinking of paying for this entire new property so hubby and I

> can eliminate our house payment, and she has discussed splitting taxes with

> us in a way that would work for all. The financial end of this would be a

> huge help and plus for me and hubby and would allow us to better help our

> kids as they need it from time to time. This arrangement also includes

> allowing me use of the land and outbuildings for my own fish wholesale

> business, something I have been doing small scale for yrs now due to lack of

> space and finances to expand in any way. (in this business the only way to

> make decent money is large scale wholesale) Nada agreed that this would also

> be written into the legal documents to avoid any conflicts that may arise

> through the rest of her life with us as neighbors.

> >

> > There were many plus's to considering this arrangement, so I discussed it

> with hubby this morning. He also wishes to hear the opinions of the group

> before we discuss it again.

> >

> > Taking care of nada now that she is getting old is something I will have

> to do regardless of where I live. This arrangement would make that much

> easier and less time consuming... however, as you all know already, it isn't

> just that simple. I can imagine some of you are cringing just at the thought

> of such a thing.

> >

> > I know talk is cheap, legal documents or not. The day to day stress of

> living next door is what I am concerned about. In our current situation 2

> 1/2 hrs away she made a comment one night at about 1am " I'm hungry, I wish

> you lived closer because you could make me something to eat and bring it

> over " . At that moment I was forever grateful to be living so far away and

> vowed to never live closer to her again. Hubby and I talked then about her

> demanding and controlling ways and what it would be like to live near her.

> The thought of it still makes me feel ill sometimes.

> >

> > I know that doing something like this will keep her front and center in

> our lives for the rest of hers... but I guess my question is, how much worse

> could it be than having to travel so far (with me not able to drive anymore)

> to take care of her for the rest of her life? Either way she will be sucking

> my life away... which makes more sense? The property, upon her death, would

> leave me and hubby set for life, no question about that. Am I talking about

> selling my soul without realizing it?

> >

> > Nada knows we can't move for at least the next 3 yrs... that is the other

> part of this thing I need help with. The place she is in now is killing me

> and hubby with trying to take care of her and it. Its falling apart around

> her and so full of antiques mixed with junk, cat piss, and filth that it

> makes me ill just thinking about it. I am concerned that in nada's big new

> adventure she is going to drag her feet on the current house, holding out

> for the next 3 yrs when we're able to move, to set up the above mentioned

> situation. I know neither hubby nor I can survive another 3 yrs of the way

> things are now. That is without question. Its just too much for the 2 of us.

> Our own house is now starting to fall apart around us because we are never

> home enough to take care of it anymore, we're too busy with the never ending

> work at nada's farm. That is what has sucked our lives away and what has

> caused me such excessive stress... and ultimately, what eventually led me

> here to this group. I was desperate enough only a few weeks ago to ask the

> help of an online friend who is a shrink... as I feared for my own sanity.

> >

> > So, the big question... what would you do? How would you all approach

> such a situation? If asked honestly, yes, I am considering this because of

> some of the good points. Hubby agrees with me there... but that OVERWHELMING

> FEAR of having her front and center in our faces 24/7 with her demands and

> insults... is looming near. I have always expected that when she reaches a

> point of needing more care than I can give, a live in caregiver is the only

> option that makes any sense. Her insurance is enough that it shouldn't be

> too difficult, but unless it is medically needed, the expense would all be

> on me, and the way things are right now, I simply could not afford that.

> This situation would help resolve that, I don't mind the extra house

> cleaning if she's not standing over me giving me instructions each time. I

> can help with her cooking by doing it at home and running it over to her

> house once/day or every other day... and there would be times I wouldn't

> mind " short " visits with her in our home. But how to set livable boundaries

> for something like this? I can never again put myself out there where she

> KNOWS I am at her mercy... never ever again. Be it financially or

> emotionally.. I can't do that again.

> > How would you do it? I keep thinking there has to be a way to make this

> work, just the how that evades me.

> >

> > Hubby sends his thanks in advance, as do I, for any contributions to this

> post. I knew the day would come that I'd have to make the hard choices (as

> if life hasn't been hard enough already) but I didn't expect it quite this

> soon. I am so grateful I have this group now to help me with these

> decisions... and to support me no matter how I choose to proceed. The

> understanding and caring in this group is unmatched anywhere I have ever

> been before in my life.

> >

> > I look forward to all of your replies!

> >

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

Army in law,

WOW! Time for some tough love:

1- Your nada is driving you nuts. She won't " let " you sleep. She won't " let "

you have a Saturday alone with your husband and family. And you are thinking

of moving next door? Wow!

2- are you really considering sharing landed, taxes and financial

arrangements with a BPD? Wow!

3- The degree that you take on your nada's problems - her mess on her

property, her old age etc are entirely your choice. But it worries me that

you act like you have none.

My advice is to read through your own words again - every worry, every

nagging thought - that indicates to me what your answer should be!

Please do not dive deeper in to this relationship that has only brought you

grief.

Girlscout

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:02 PM, christine.depizan <

christine.depizan@...> wrote:

>

>

> I can't tell you what to do---but I can share the first thought I had

> reading your post: I'd be very concerned that living " next door " on the same

> property with nada wouldn't appease her at all but would rather feed her

> bottomless pit of need...that by allying yourselves financially with your

> nada in this way that you could be entrapping yourselves.Entering into such

> an arrangement will do nothing to improve your nada's disorder and could

> even serve to fuel it further because she will then have you bound to

> her...My honest opinion to take or leave---I think that if you have to ask

> yourself if you might be " selling your soul to the devil " ,you are having

> well founded suspicions and misgivings.

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Hi again to everyone. This is going to be a very long post. I ask

> everyone to bear with me because I need all of the help and advice I can get

> on this one, and only this group can really help me.

> >

> > As I mentioned in my introduction a couple of wks ago, my step father

> died back in July, leaving nada entirely alone (for the first time in her

> life) with a 32 acre mess due to their 20+ yrs of hoarding. Hubby and I live

> 2 1/2 hrs away from nada, and this past year, taking care of her has

> literally sucked our lives away. Every Saturday though the end of November

> was spent taking care of nada and her farm mess with only myself and my

> husband to do the work.

> >

> > Being the oldest of 2 kids and the only one left now to take care of nada

> leaves me in something of a bind legally, or soon will, when it comes to her

> care. I have always known that day would eventually come, still not sure how

> I will handle it.

> >

> > Nada is a real estate broker and understands she desperately needs to

> move as soon as possible, but it seems to be taking forever to get the place

> ready, for obvious reasons. I know I can't live the next few years like

> this, nada sucking up every free moment because she's destitute and living

> in a place that is literally falling apart around her, while expecting me

> and hubby to get there every time she needs/wants us. Last night during my

> nightly " nada sitting chat " online we were discussing again about finding

> her a new house as soon as possible, so she began looking through the MLS

> listings yet again. She sent me 1 listing, and now wants me and hubby to

> make a life altering decision. This is what I need help with.

> >

> > What nada has proposed is a property, not necessarily this one but

> another similar to it, near where she lives now (which is over an hour

> closer for hubby to work and back every day) that has acreage, 10+ acres...

> with 2 houses... one for us and one for nada. She wants us to be " neighbors "

> on the same property. She spent 2 hrs pointing out all of the positive

> aspects of doing such a thing, which, to an average person would make a

> whole world of sense. If not for the BPD situation I would probably already

> be packing... lol

> >

> > Nada and I discussed some rules, she agreed it would all be drawn up by a

> lawyer, giving hubby and myself all legal rights to " our " house up front,

> and the entire property would be given to us in her will. I was adamant that

> I would not even consider such a thing if she left one of the houses to my

> sister. I have no relationship with my sister, she may also suffer with the

> BPD, not sure... but she is an extremely cruel and unpleasant person to be

> around, so I simply have a NC relationship with her that has worked for both

> of us for 20+ yrs. Nada agreed happily, and said she would do it immediately

> as part of our legal arrangement when the property was purchased.

> >

> > Nada is thinking of paying for this entire new property so hubby and I

> can eliminate our house payment, and she has discussed splitting taxes with

> us in a way that would work for all. The financial end of this would be a

> huge help and plus for me and hubby and would allow us to better help our

> kids as they need it from time to time. This arrangement also includes

> allowing me use of the land and outbuildings for my own fish wholesale

> business, something I have been doing small scale for yrs now due to lack of

> space and finances to expand in any way. (in this business the only way to

> make decent money is large scale wholesale) Nada agreed that this would also

> be written into the legal documents to avoid any conflicts that may arise

> through the rest of her life with us as neighbors.

> >

> > There were many plus's to considering this arrangement, so I discussed it

> with hubby this morning. He also wishes to hear the opinions of the group

> before we discuss it again.

> >

> > Taking care of nada now that she is getting old is something I will have

> to do regardless of where I live. This arrangement would make that much

> easier and less time consuming... however, as you all know already, it isn't

> just that simple. I can imagine some of you are cringing just at the thought

> of such a thing.

> >

> > I know talk is cheap, legal documents or not. The day to day stress of

> living next door is what I am concerned about. In our current situation 2

> 1/2 hrs away she made a comment one night at about 1am " I'm hungry, I wish

> you lived closer because you could make me something to eat and bring it

> over " . At that moment I was forever grateful to be living so far away and

> vowed to never live closer to her again. Hubby and I talked then about her

> demanding and controlling ways and what it would be like to live near her.

> The thought of it still makes me feel ill sometimes.

> >

> > I know that doing something like this will keep her front and center in

> our lives for the rest of hers... but I guess my question is, how much worse

> could it be than having to travel so far (with me not able to drive anymore)

> to take care of her for the rest of her life? Either way she will be sucking

> my life away... which makes more sense? The property, upon her death, would

> leave me and hubby set for life, no question about that. Am I talking about

> selling my soul without realizing it?

> >

> > Nada knows we can't move for at least the next 3 yrs... that is the other

> part of this thing I need help with. The place she is in now is killing me

> and hubby with trying to take care of her and it. Its falling apart around

> her and so full of antiques mixed with junk, cat piss, and filth that it

> makes me ill just thinking about it. I am concerned that in nada's big new

> adventure she is going to drag her feet on the current house, holding out

> for the next 3 yrs when we're able to move, to set up the above mentioned

> situation. I know neither hubby nor I can survive another 3 yrs of the way

> things are now. That is without question. Its just too much for the 2 of us.

> Our own house is now starting to fall apart around us because we are never

> home enough to take care of it anymore, we're too busy with the never ending

> work at nada's farm. That is what has sucked our lives away and what has

> caused me such excessive stress... and ultimately, what eventually led me

> here to this group. I was desperate enough only a few weeks ago to ask the

> help of an online friend who is a shrink... as I feared for my own sanity.

> >

> > So, the big question... what would you do? How would you all approach

> such a situation? If asked honestly, yes, I am considering this because of

> some of the good points. Hubby agrees with me there... but that OVERWHELMING

> FEAR of having her front and center in our faces 24/7 with her demands and

> insults... is looming near. I have always expected that when she reaches a

> point of needing more care than I can give, a live in caregiver is the only

> option that makes any sense. Her insurance is enough that it shouldn't be

> too difficult, but unless it is medically needed, the expense would all be

> on me, and the way things are right now, I simply could not afford that.

> This situation would help resolve that, I don't mind the extra house

> cleaning if she's not standing over me giving me instructions each time. I

> can help with her cooking by doing it at home and running it over to her

> house once/day or every other day... and there would be times I wouldn't

> mind " short " visits with her in our home. But how to set livable boundaries

> for something like this? I can never again put myself out there where she

> KNOWS I am at her mercy... never ever again. Be it financially or

> emotionally.. I can't do that again.

> > How would you do it? I keep thinking there has to be a way to make this

> work, just the how that evades me.

> >

> > Hubby sends his thanks in advance, as do I, for any contributions to this

> post. I knew the day would come that I'd have to make the hard choices (as

> if life hasn't been hard enough already) but I didn't expect it quite this

> soon. I am so grateful I have this group now to help me with these

> decisions... and to support me no matter how I choose to proceed. The

> understanding and caring in this group is unmatched anywhere I have ever

> been before in my life.

> >

> > I look forward to all of your replies!

> >

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

Army in law,

WOW! Time for some tough love:

1- Your nada is driving you nuts. She won't " let " you sleep. She won't " let "

you have a Saturday alone with your husband and family. And you are thinking

of moving next door? Wow!

2- are you really considering sharing landed, taxes and financial

arrangements with a BPD? Wow!

3- The degree that you take on your nada's problems - her mess on her

property, her old age etc are entirely your choice. But it worries me that

you act like you have none.

My advice is to read through your own words again - every worry, every

nagging thought - that indicates to me what your answer should be!

Please do not dive deeper in to this relationship that has only brought you

grief.

Girlscout

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:02 PM, christine.depizan <

christine.depizan@...> wrote:

>

>

> I can't tell you what to do---but I can share the first thought I had

> reading your post: I'd be very concerned that living " next door " on the same

> property with nada wouldn't appease her at all but would rather feed her

> bottomless pit of need...that by allying yourselves financially with your

> nada in this way that you could be entrapping yourselves.Entering into such

> an arrangement will do nothing to improve your nada's disorder and could

> even serve to fuel it further because she will then have you bound to

> her...My honest opinion to take or leave---I think that if you have to ask

> yourself if you might be " selling your soul to the devil " ,you are having

> well founded suspicions and misgivings.

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Hi again to everyone. This is going to be a very long post. I ask

> everyone to bear with me because I need all of the help and advice I can get

> on this one, and only this group can really help me.

> >

> > As I mentioned in my introduction a couple of wks ago, my step father

> died back in July, leaving nada entirely alone (for the first time in her

> life) with a 32 acre mess due to their 20+ yrs of hoarding. Hubby and I live

> 2 1/2 hrs away from nada, and this past year, taking care of her has

> literally sucked our lives away. Every Saturday though the end of November

> was spent taking care of nada and her farm mess with only myself and my

> husband to do the work.

> >

> > Being the oldest of 2 kids and the only one left now to take care of nada

> leaves me in something of a bind legally, or soon will, when it comes to her

> care. I have always known that day would eventually come, still not sure how

> I will handle it.

> >

> > Nada is a real estate broker and understands she desperately needs to

> move as soon as possible, but it seems to be taking forever to get the place

> ready, for obvious reasons. I know I can't live the next few years like

> this, nada sucking up every free moment because she's destitute and living

> in a place that is literally falling apart around her, while expecting me

> and hubby to get there every time she needs/wants us. Last night during my

> nightly " nada sitting chat " online we were discussing again about finding

> her a new house as soon as possible, so she began looking through the MLS

> listings yet again. She sent me 1 listing, and now wants me and hubby to

> make a life altering decision. This is what I need help with.

> >

> > What nada has proposed is a property, not necessarily this one but

> another similar to it, near where she lives now (which is over an hour

> closer for hubby to work and back every day) that has acreage, 10+ acres...

> with 2 houses... one for us and one for nada. She wants us to be " neighbors "

> on the same property. She spent 2 hrs pointing out all of the positive

> aspects of doing such a thing, which, to an average person would make a

> whole world of sense. If not for the BPD situation I would probably already

> be packing... lol

> >

> > Nada and I discussed some rules, she agreed it would all be drawn up by a

> lawyer, giving hubby and myself all legal rights to " our " house up front,

> and the entire property would be given to us in her will. I was adamant that

> I would not even consider such a thing if she left one of the houses to my

> sister. I have no relationship with my sister, she may also suffer with the

> BPD, not sure... but she is an extremely cruel and unpleasant person to be

> around, so I simply have a NC relationship with her that has worked for both

> of us for 20+ yrs. Nada agreed happily, and said she would do it immediately

> as part of our legal arrangement when the property was purchased.

> >

> > Nada is thinking of paying for this entire new property so hubby and I

> can eliminate our house payment, and she has discussed splitting taxes with

> us in a way that would work for all. The financial end of this would be a

> huge help and plus for me and hubby and would allow us to better help our

> kids as they need it from time to time. This arrangement also includes

> allowing me use of the land and outbuildings for my own fish wholesale

> business, something I have been doing small scale for yrs now due to lack of

> space and finances to expand in any way. (in this business the only way to

> make decent money is large scale wholesale) Nada agreed that this would also

> be written into the legal documents to avoid any conflicts that may arise

> through the rest of her life with us as neighbors.

> >

> > There were many plus's to considering this arrangement, so I discussed it

> with hubby this morning. He also wishes to hear the opinions of the group

> before we discuss it again.

> >

> > Taking care of nada now that she is getting old is something I will have

> to do regardless of where I live. This arrangement would make that much

> easier and less time consuming... however, as you all know already, it isn't

> just that simple. I can imagine some of you are cringing just at the thought

> of such a thing.

> >

> > I know talk is cheap, legal documents or not. The day to day stress of

> living next door is what I am concerned about. In our current situation 2

> 1/2 hrs away she made a comment one night at about 1am " I'm hungry, I wish

> you lived closer because you could make me something to eat and bring it

> over " . At that moment I was forever grateful to be living so far away and

> vowed to never live closer to her again. Hubby and I talked then about her

> demanding and controlling ways and what it would be like to live near her.

> The thought of it still makes me feel ill sometimes.

> >

> > I know that doing something like this will keep her front and center in

> our lives for the rest of hers... but I guess my question is, how much worse

> could it be than having to travel so far (with me not able to drive anymore)

> to take care of her for the rest of her life? Either way she will be sucking

> my life away... which makes more sense? The property, upon her death, would

> leave me and hubby set for life, no question about that. Am I talking about

> selling my soul without realizing it?

> >

> > Nada knows we can't move for at least the next 3 yrs... that is the other

> part of this thing I need help with. The place she is in now is killing me

> and hubby with trying to take care of her and it. Its falling apart around

> her and so full of antiques mixed with junk, cat piss, and filth that it

> makes me ill just thinking about it. I am concerned that in nada's big new

> adventure she is going to drag her feet on the current house, holding out

> for the next 3 yrs when we're able to move, to set up the above mentioned

> situation. I know neither hubby nor I can survive another 3 yrs of the way

> things are now. That is without question. Its just too much for the 2 of us.

> Our own house is now starting to fall apart around us because we are never

> home enough to take care of it anymore, we're too busy with the never ending

> work at nada's farm. That is what has sucked our lives away and what has

> caused me such excessive stress... and ultimately, what eventually led me

> here to this group. I was desperate enough only a few weeks ago to ask the

> help of an online friend who is a shrink... as I feared for my own sanity.

> >

> > So, the big question... what would you do? How would you all approach

> such a situation? If asked honestly, yes, I am considering this because of

> some of the good points. Hubby agrees with me there... but that OVERWHELMING

> FEAR of having her front and center in our faces 24/7 with her demands and

> insults... is looming near. I have always expected that when she reaches a

> point of needing more care than I can give, a live in caregiver is the only

> option that makes any sense. Her insurance is enough that it shouldn't be

> too difficult, but unless it is medically needed, the expense would all be

> on me, and the way things are right now, I simply could not afford that.

> This situation would help resolve that, I don't mind the extra house

> cleaning if she's not standing over me giving me instructions each time. I

> can help with her cooking by doing it at home and running it over to her

> house once/day or every other day... and there would be times I wouldn't

> mind " short " visits with her in our home. But how to set livable boundaries

> for something like this? I can never again put myself out there where she

> KNOWS I am at her mercy... never ever again. Be it financially or

> emotionally.. I can't do that again.

> > How would you do it? I keep thinking there has to be a way to make this

> work, just the how that evades me.

> >

> > Hubby sends his thanks in advance, as do I, for any contributions to this

> post. I knew the day would come that I'd have to make the hard choices (as

> if life hasn't been hard enough already) but I didn't expect it quite this

> soon. I am so grateful I have this group now to help me with these

> decisions... and to support me no matter how I choose to proceed. The

> understanding and caring in this group is unmatched anywhere I have ever

> been before in my life.

> >

> > I look forward to all of your replies!

> >

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

A few observations.

Entering a business arrangement with a BP is a dangerous proposition.

They gaslight, and remember what they agreed to differently. They are

not trustworthy, or reliable with money. Most people I know, including

me, who were in any financial arrangement with my Nada, regardless how

good it sounded up front, got F...ed.

My Nada was also a hoarder, and trying to help her clean that up was

expensive, difficult, not appreciated, she held every effort against me

for the rest of her life, and in the final analysis I had to clean and

dispose of a great deal of stuff after her death anyway.

Hoarders often put their homes and property in such shape that it s

value plummets due to the above realities. Forever is not an

unrealistic assessment. If you wait for a hoarder to straighten up the

place till it is ready to sell, your children will have grandchildren

first. It will not happen.

More comments below , in between parts of your post. Long indeed! :)

>

> As I mentioned in my introduction a couple of wks ago, my step father

died back in July, leaving nada entirely alone (for the first time in

her life) with a 32 acre mess due to their 20+ yrs of hoarding. Hubby

and I live 2 1/2 hrs away from nada, and this past year, taking care of

her has literally sucked our lives away. Every Saturday though the end

of November was spent taking care of nada and her farm mess with only

myself and my husband to do the work.

Her mess, her responsibility. You don t HAVE to do all that crap.

Sucked your lives away...yes. Hoovering. That is precisely what nada s

do.

>

> Being the oldest of 2 kids and the only one left now to take care of

nada leaves me in something of a bind legally, or soon will, when it

comes to her care. I have always known that day would eventually come,

still not sure how I will handle it.

She is an adult with assets. You don t have to toss your life down the

crapper after hers.

> Nada is a real estate broker and understands she desperately needs to

move as soon as possible, but it seems to be taking forever to get the

place ready, for obvious reasons. I know I can't live the next few

years like this, nada sucking up every free moment because she's

destitute and living in a place that is literally falling apart around

her, while expecting me and hubby to get there every time she

needs/wants us. Last night during my nightly " nada sitting chat " online

we were discussing again about finding her a new house as soon as

possible, so she began looking through the MLS listings yet again. She

sent me 1 listing, and now wants me and hubby to make a life altering

decision. This is what I need help with.

If she is not capable of selling it, she can move and place it with

another broker with instructions to sell it for her. She does not have

to live on a farm or own a home. If she is destitute, she can live in a

subsidized senior center.

>

> What nada has proposed is a property, not necessarily this one but

another similar to it, near where she lives now (which is over an hour

closer for hubby to work and back every day) that has acreage, 10+

acres... with 2 houses... one for us and one for nada. She wants us to

be " neighbors " on the same property. She spent 2 hrs pointing out all

of the positive aspects of doing such a thing, which, to an average

person would make a whole world of sense. If not for the BPD situation

I would probably already be packing... lol

Life altering decision indeed. The only way I would even consider the

possibility would be as follows.

1. Nada sells or has sold her property before you make a move.

2. Nada puts all the new property in your name and your husbands, before

any move.

3. You can entail one of the houses, that is you own it but agree she

may live there until her death.

4. You get her to sign a binding legal document that you are not

responsible for her debts and that she may not borrow or sell against

the property.

> Nada and I discussed some rules, she agreed it would all be drawn up

by a lawyer, giving hubby and myself all legal rights to " our " house up

front, and the entire property would be given to us in her will.

How can I say this. BULLSHIT!!! Nada s never obey rules. Rules and

agreements mean nothing to them, they do what the hell they want to and

justify it no matter how badly they lie and screw you. Own it totally

before you ever think about it. Wills can always be changed. What she

agrees to leave you she can blackmail you with for the rest of her life.

Let her give it to you now, and YOU sign an agreement giving her the

right to live in one of the houses. Let HER trust YOUR good intentions

and willingness to abide by an agreement.

I was adamant that I would not even consider such a thing if she left

one of the houses to my sister. I have no relationship with my sister,

she may also suffer with the BPD, not sure... but she is an extremely

cruel and unpleasant person to be around, so I simply have a NC

relationship with her that has worked for both of us for 20+ yrs. Nada

agreed happily, and said she would do it immediately as part of our

legal arrangement when the property was purchased.

Again, unless she puts in in your name, her agreement as to what she

will do with it in her will is meaningless. She can split on you and

make you a villain and take it all.

>

> Nada is thinking of paying for this entire new property so hubby and I

can eliminate our house payment, and she has discussed splitting taxes

with us in a way that would work for all. The financial end of this

would be a huge help and plus for me and hubby and would allow us to

better help our kids as they need it from time to time. This

arrangement also includes allowing me use of the land and outbuildings

for my own fish wholesale business, something I have been doing small

scale for yrs now due to lack of space and finances to expand in any

way. (in this business the only way to make decent money is large scale

wholesale) Nada agreed that this would also be written into the legal

documents to avoid any conflicts that may arise through the rest of her

life with us as neighbors.

Once again, a legal or verbal agreement with a BP is a useless piece of

bullshit, use of land, tax agreements, you name it. If she decides you

are a bad girl, she ll break them all. Put everything in your name from

the beginning, or walk away from it. My daddy taught me that a deal

that seems too good to be true, is. Remember who this woman is. No

matter what she agrees now, if there is a way for her to use it to

blackmail you into staying in her FOG, she will.

No amount of money or property is worth that.

I once sold a car to my mom. I was going to sell it outright, but she

wanted to buy it, so I agreed. I even financed it for her. She made one

payment and stiffed me for the rest. Then she gave it away to her second

ex husband when they divorced.

USE EXTREME CAUTION DOING BUSINESS WITH A BP.

>

> There were many plus's to considering this arrangement, so I discussed

it with hubby this morning. He also wishes to hear the opinions of the

group before we discuss it again.

>

> Taking care of nada now that she is getting old is something I will

have to do regardless of where I live. This arrangement would make that

much easier and less time consuming... however, as you all know already,

it isn't just that simple. I can imagine some of you are cringing just

at the thought of such a thing.

NO, you do not HAVE to take care of Nada. FOG alert. Why do you assume

that you must, or that you will be the one.

>

> I know talk is cheap, legal documents or not. The day to day stress

of living next door is what I am concerned about. In our current

situation 2 1/2 hrs away she made a comment one night at about 1am " I'm

hungry, I wish you lived closer because you could make me something to

eat and bring it over " . At that moment I was forever grateful to be

living so far away and vowed to never live closer to her again. Hubby

and I talked then about her demanding and controlling ways and what it

would be like to live near her. The thought of it still makes me feel

ill sometimes.

>

Best advice of all. You and your hubby are making it ok. You don t need

what she is dangling. It will not be as good as she says. Think of what

her hoarder house looks like now. Imagine her your neighbor.

Let her sell and buy a house closer, and you can visit. Or let her sell

and move into a retirement center. This is a trap.

If she cannot ever get her shit together to get it sold, she may die

right there, in that mess. That is her choice. She is an adult. If she

wants to do anything, let her give you POA and you get it sold right

away at whatever price you can get and buy a place under your control

for her to live.

How do you know she s not full of shit and has the place mortgaged to

the hilt.

DANGER Will .

Doug

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Posted
Posted

A few observations.

Entering a business arrangement with a BP is a dangerous proposition.

They gaslight, and remember what they agreed to differently. They are

not trustworthy, or reliable with money. Most people I know, including

me, who were in any financial arrangement with my Nada, regardless how

good it sounded up front, got F...ed.

My Nada was also a hoarder, and trying to help her clean that up was

expensive, difficult, not appreciated, she held every effort against me

for the rest of her life, and in the final analysis I had to clean and

dispose of a great deal of stuff after her death anyway.

Hoarders often put their homes and property in such shape that it s

value plummets due to the above realities. Forever is not an

unrealistic assessment. If you wait for a hoarder to straighten up the

place till it is ready to sell, your children will have grandchildren

first. It will not happen.

More comments below , in between parts of your post. Long indeed! :)

>

> As I mentioned in my introduction a couple of wks ago, my step father

died back in July, leaving nada entirely alone (for the first time in

her life) with a 32 acre mess due to their 20+ yrs of hoarding. Hubby

and I live 2 1/2 hrs away from nada, and this past year, taking care of

her has literally sucked our lives away. Every Saturday though the end

of November was spent taking care of nada and her farm mess with only

myself and my husband to do the work.

Her mess, her responsibility. You don t HAVE to do all that crap.

Sucked your lives away...yes. Hoovering. That is precisely what nada s

do.

>

> Being the oldest of 2 kids and the only one left now to take care of

nada leaves me in something of a bind legally, or soon will, when it

comes to her care. I have always known that day would eventually come,

still not sure how I will handle it.

She is an adult with assets. You don t have to toss your life down the

crapper after hers.

> Nada is a real estate broker and understands she desperately needs to

move as soon as possible, but it seems to be taking forever to get the

place ready, for obvious reasons. I know I can't live the next few

years like this, nada sucking up every free moment because she's

destitute and living in a place that is literally falling apart around

her, while expecting me and hubby to get there every time she

needs/wants us. Last night during my nightly " nada sitting chat " online

we were discussing again about finding her a new house as soon as

possible, so she began looking through the MLS listings yet again. She

sent me 1 listing, and now wants me and hubby to make a life altering

decision. This is what I need help with.

If she is not capable of selling it, she can move and place it with

another broker with instructions to sell it for her. She does not have

to live on a farm or own a home. If she is destitute, she can live in a

subsidized senior center.

>

> What nada has proposed is a property, not necessarily this one but

another similar to it, near where she lives now (which is over an hour

closer for hubby to work and back every day) that has acreage, 10+

acres... with 2 houses... one for us and one for nada. She wants us to

be " neighbors " on the same property. She spent 2 hrs pointing out all

of the positive aspects of doing such a thing, which, to an average

person would make a whole world of sense. If not for the BPD situation

I would probably already be packing... lol

Life altering decision indeed. The only way I would even consider the

possibility would be as follows.

1. Nada sells or has sold her property before you make a move.

2. Nada puts all the new property in your name and your husbands, before

any move.

3. You can entail one of the houses, that is you own it but agree she

may live there until her death.

4. You get her to sign a binding legal document that you are not

responsible for her debts and that she may not borrow or sell against

the property.

> Nada and I discussed some rules, she agreed it would all be drawn up

by a lawyer, giving hubby and myself all legal rights to " our " house up

front, and the entire property would be given to us in her will.

How can I say this. BULLSHIT!!! Nada s never obey rules. Rules and

agreements mean nothing to them, they do what the hell they want to and

justify it no matter how badly they lie and screw you. Own it totally

before you ever think about it. Wills can always be changed. What she

agrees to leave you she can blackmail you with for the rest of her life.

Let her give it to you now, and YOU sign an agreement giving her the

right to live in one of the houses. Let HER trust YOUR good intentions

and willingness to abide by an agreement.

I was adamant that I would not even consider such a thing if she left

one of the houses to my sister. I have no relationship with my sister,

she may also suffer with the BPD, not sure... but she is an extremely

cruel and unpleasant person to be around, so I simply have a NC

relationship with her that has worked for both of us for 20+ yrs. Nada

agreed happily, and said she would do it immediately as part of our

legal arrangement when the property was purchased.

Again, unless she puts in in your name, her agreement as to what she

will do with it in her will is meaningless. She can split on you and

make you a villain and take it all.

>

> Nada is thinking of paying for this entire new property so hubby and I

can eliminate our house payment, and she has discussed splitting taxes

with us in a way that would work for all. The financial end of this

would be a huge help and plus for me and hubby and would allow us to

better help our kids as they need it from time to time. This

arrangement also includes allowing me use of the land and outbuildings

for my own fish wholesale business, something I have been doing small

scale for yrs now due to lack of space and finances to expand in any

way. (in this business the only way to make decent money is large scale

wholesale) Nada agreed that this would also be written into the legal

documents to avoid any conflicts that may arise through the rest of her

life with us as neighbors.

Once again, a legal or verbal agreement with a BP is a useless piece of

bullshit, use of land, tax agreements, you name it. If she decides you

are a bad girl, she ll break them all. Put everything in your name from

the beginning, or walk away from it. My daddy taught me that a deal

that seems too good to be true, is. Remember who this woman is. No

matter what she agrees now, if there is a way for her to use it to

blackmail you into staying in her FOG, she will.

No amount of money or property is worth that.

I once sold a car to my mom. I was going to sell it outright, but she

wanted to buy it, so I agreed. I even financed it for her. She made one

payment and stiffed me for the rest. Then she gave it away to her second

ex husband when they divorced.

USE EXTREME CAUTION DOING BUSINESS WITH A BP.

>

> There were many plus's to considering this arrangement, so I discussed

it with hubby this morning. He also wishes to hear the opinions of the

group before we discuss it again.

>

> Taking care of nada now that she is getting old is something I will

have to do regardless of where I live. This arrangement would make that

much easier and less time consuming... however, as you all know already,

it isn't just that simple. I can imagine some of you are cringing just

at the thought of such a thing.

NO, you do not HAVE to take care of Nada. FOG alert. Why do you assume

that you must, or that you will be the one.

>

> I know talk is cheap, legal documents or not. The day to day stress

of living next door is what I am concerned about. In our current

situation 2 1/2 hrs away she made a comment one night at about 1am " I'm

hungry, I wish you lived closer because you could make me something to

eat and bring it over " . At that moment I was forever grateful to be

living so far away and vowed to never live closer to her again. Hubby

and I talked then about her demanding and controlling ways and what it

would be like to live near her. The thought of it still makes me feel

ill sometimes.

>

Best advice of all. You and your hubby are making it ok. You don t need

what she is dangling. It will not be as good as she says. Think of what

her hoarder house looks like now. Imagine her your neighbor.

Let her sell and buy a house closer, and you can visit. Or let her sell

and move into a retirement center. This is a trap.

If she cannot ever get her shit together to get it sold, she may die

right there, in that mess. That is her choice. She is an adult. If she

wants to do anything, let her give you POA and you get it sold right

away at whatever price you can get and buy a place under your control

for her to live.

How do you know she s not full of shit and has the place mortgaged to

the hilt.

DANGER Will .

Doug

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Posted
Posted

Hey Army, I gotta say, I concur with the rest: don't drink this Kool-Aid. I

understand that Nada is holding out a very tasty financial carrot, but IMO, you

need to be running in the other direction.

Nadas get old and think it's their due to have their impossible, tangled webs

smoothed out by their children. This is NOT the way it has to be. More

detachment is what's required of KOs, it seems. She is living in a mess of her

own creation, over many years. Well, so what if she stays there? Girlscout sums

it up clearly: The degree that you take on your nada's problems - her mess on

her property, her old age etc are entirely your choice. But it worries me that

you act like you have none.

If I were in your situation, I would take a deep breath, and walk away from this

for several weeks. I would even initiate temporary NC with Nada, recoup some

time with my husband and children, and interrupt the constant harangue and

distraction that is Nada.

You do have a choice. You can turn down the volume on her problems and not let

them engulf you. Just get some healthy distance and do nothing right now. Then,

I would look at how many hours a week I have to devote to her problems (probably

about 4, since husband and children come first, always) and put a firm boundary

around those hours. Limiting time will make all of you, including Nada, more

productive about actually solving problems within the weekly time limit. When

the hours are up, it's NC till Monday rolls around again.

Wishing you sanity,

AFB

> > >

> > > Hi again to everyone. This is going to be a very long post. I ask

> > everyone to bear with me because I need all of the help and advice I can get

> > on this one, and only this group can really help me.

> > >

> > > As I mentioned in my introduction a couple of wks ago, my step father

> > died back in July, leaving nada entirely alone (for the first time in her

> > life) with a 32 acre mess due to their 20+ yrs of hoarding. Hubby and I live

> > 2 1/2 hrs away from nada, and this past year, taking care of her has

> > literally sucked our lives away. Every Saturday though the end of November

> > was spent taking care of nada and her farm mess with only myself and my

> > husband to do the work.

> > >

> > > Being the oldest of 2 kids and the only one left now to take care of nada

> > leaves me in something of a bind legally, or soon will, when it comes to her

> > care. I have always known that day would eventually come, still not sure how

> > I will handle it.

> > >

> > > Nada is a real estate broker and understands she desperately needs to

> > move as soon as possible, but it seems to be taking forever to get the place

> > ready, for obvious reasons. I know I can't live the next few years like

> > this, nada sucking up every free moment because she's destitute and living

> > in a place that is literally falling apart around her, while expecting me

> > and hubby to get there every time she needs/wants us. Last night during my

> > nightly " nada sitting chat " online we were discussing again about finding

> > her a new house as soon as possible, so she began looking through the MLS

> > listings yet again. She sent me 1 listing, and now wants me and hubby to

> > make a life altering decision. This is what I need help with.

> > >

> > > What nada has proposed is a property, not necessarily this one but

> > another similar to it, near where she lives now (which is over an hour

> > closer for hubby to work and back every day) that has acreage, 10+ acres...

> > with 2 houses... one for us and one for nada. She wants us to be " neighbors "

> > on the same property. She spent 2 hrs pointing out all of the positive

> > aspects of doing such a thing, which, to an average person would make a

> > whole world of sense. If not for the BPD situation I would probably already

> > be packing... lol

> > >

> > > Nada and I discussed some rules, she agreed it would all be drawn up by a

> > lawyer, giving hubby and myself all legal rights to " our " house up front,

> > and the entire property would be given to us in her will. I was adamant that

> > I would not even consider such a thing if she left one of the houses to my

> > sister. I have no relationship with my sister, she may also suffer with the

> > BPD, not sure... but she is an extremely cruel and unpleasant person to be

> > around, so I simply have a NC relationship with her that has worked for both

> > of us for 20+ yrs. Nada agreed happily, and said she would do it immediately

> > as part of our legal arrangement when the property was purchased.

> > >

> > > Nada is thinking of paying for this entire new property so hubby and I

> > can eliminate our house payment, and she has discussed splitting taxes with

> > us in a way that would work for all. The financial end of this would be a

> > huge help and plus for me and hubby and would allow us to better help our

> > kids as they need it from time to time. This arrangement also includes

> > allowing me use of the land and outbuildings for my own fish wholesale

> > business, something I have been doing small scale for yrs now due to lack of

> > space and finances to expand in any way. (in this business the only way to

> > make decent money is large scale wholesale) Nada agreed that this would also

> > be written into the legal documents to avoid any conflicts that may arise

> > through the rest of her life with us as neighbors.

> > >

> > > There were many plus's to considering this arrangement, so I discussed it

> > with hubby this morning. He also wishes to hear the opinions of the group

> > before we discuss it again.

> > >

> > > Taking care of nada now that she is getting old is something I will have

> > to do regardless of where I live. This arrangement would make that much

> > easier and less time consuming... however, as you all know already, it isn't

> > just that simple. I can imagine some of you are cringing just at the thought

> > of such a thing.

> > >

> > > I know talk is cheap, legal documents or not. The day to day stress of

> > living next door is what I am concerned about. In our current situation 2

> > 1/2 hrs away she made a comment one night at about 1am " I'm hungry, I wish

> > you lived closer because you could make me something to eat and bring it

> > over " . At that moment I was forever grateful to be living so far away and

> > vowed to never live closer to her again. Hubby and I talked then about her

> > demanding and controlling ways and what it would be like to live near her.

> > The thought of it still makes me feel ill sometimes.

> > >

> > > I know that doing something like this will keep her front and center in

> > our lives for the rest of hers... but I guess my question is, how much worse

> > could it be than having to travel so far (with me not able to drive anymore)

> > to take care of her for the rest of her life? Either way she will be sucking

> > my life away... which makes more sense? The property, upon her death, would

> > leave me and hubby set for life, no question about that. Am I talking about

> > selling my soul without realizing it?

> > >

> > > Nada knows we can't move for at least the next 3 yrs... that is the other

> > part of this thing I need help with. The place she is in now is killing me

> > and hubby with trying to take care of her and it. Its falling apart around

> > her and so full of antiques mixed with junk, cat piss, and filth that it

> > makes me ill just thinking about it. I am concerned that in nada's big new

> > adventure she is going to drag her feet on the current house, holding out

> > for the next 3 yrs when we're able to move, to set up the above mentioned

> > situation. I know neither hubby nor I can survive another 3 yrs of the way

> > things are now. That is without question. Its just too much for the 2 of us.

> > Our own house is now starting to fall apart around us because we are never

> > home enough to take care of it anymore, we're too busy with the never ending

> > work at nada's farm. That is what has sucked our lives away and what has

> > caused me such excessive stress... and ultimately, what eventually led me

> > here to this group. I was desperate enough only a few weeks ago to ask the

> > help of an online friend who is a shrink... as I feared for my own sanity.

> > >

> > > So, the big question... what would you do? How would you all approach

> > such a situation? If asked honestly, yes, I am considering this because of

> > some of the good points. Hubby agrees with me there... but that OVERWHELMING

> > FEAR of having her front and center in our faces 24/7 with her demands and

> > insults... is looming near. I have always expected that when she reaches a

> > point of needing more care than I can give, a live in caregiver is the only

> > option that makes any sense. Her insurance is enough that it shouldn't be

> > too difficult, but unless it is medically needed, the expense would all be

> > on me, and the way things are right now, I simply could not afford that.

> > This situation would help resolve that, I don't mind the extra house

> > cleaning if she's not standing over me giving me instructions each time. I

> > can help with her cooking by doing it at home and running it over to her

> > house once/day or every other day... and there would be times I wouldn't

> > mind " short " visits with her in our home. But how to set livable boundaries

> > for something like this? I can never again put myself out there where she

> > KNOWS I am at her mercy... never ever again. Be it financially or

> > emotionally.. I can't do that again.

> > > How would you do it? I keep thinking there has to be a way to make this

> > work, just the how that evades me.

> > >

> > > Hubby sends his thanks in advance, as do I, for any contributions to this

> > post. I knew the day would come that I'd have to make the hard choices (as

> > if life hasn't been hard enough already) but I didn't expect it quite this

> > soon. I am so grateful I have this group now to help me with these

> > decisions... and to support me no matter how I choose to proceed. The

> > understanding and caring in this group is unmatched anywhere I have ever

> > been before in my life.

> > >

> > > I look forward to all of your replies!

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

Hey Army, I gotta say, I concur with the rest: don't drink this Kool-Aid. I

understand that Nada is holding out a very tasty financial carrot, but IMO, you

need to be running in the other direction.

Nadas get old and think it's their due to have their impossible, tangled webs

smoothed out by their children. This is NOT the way it has to be. More

detachment is what's required of KOs, it seems. She is living in a mess of her

own creation, over many years. Well, so what if she stays there? Girlscout sums

it up clearly: The degree that you take on your nada's problems - her mess on

her property, her old age etc are entirely your choice. But it worries me that

you act like you have none.

If I were in your situation, I would take a deep breath, and walk away from this

for several weeks. I would even initiate temporary NC with Nada, recoup some

time with my husband and children, and interrupt the constant harangue and

distraction that is Nada.

You do have a choice. You can turn down the volume on her problems and not let

them engulf you. Just get some healthy distance and do nothing right now. Then,

I would look at how many hours a week I have to devote to her problems (probably

about 4, since husband and children come first, always) and put a firm boundary

around those hours. Limiting time will make all of you, including Nada, more

productive about actually solving problems within the weekly time limit. When

the hours are up, it's NC till Monday rolls around again.

Wishing you sanity,

AFB

> > >

> > > Hi again to everyone. This is going to be a very long post. I ask

> > everyone to bear with me because I need all of the help and advice I can get

> > on this one, and only this group can really help me.

> > >

> > > As I mentioned in my introduction a couple of wks ago, my step father

> > died back in July, leaving nada entirely alone (for the first time in her

> > life) with a 32 acre mess due to their 20+ yrs of hoarding. Hubby and I live

> > 2 1/2 hrs away from nada, and this past year, taking care of her has

> > literally sucked our lives away. Every Saturday though the end of November

> > was spent taking care of nada and her farm mess with only myself and my

> > husband to do the work.

> > >

> > > Being the oldest of 2 kids and the only one left now to take care of nada

> > leaves me in something of a bind legally, or soon will, when it comes to her

> > care. I have always known that day would eventually come, still not sure how

> > I will handle it.

> > >

> > > Nada is a real estate broker and understands she desperately needs to

> > move as soon as possible, but it seems to be taking forever to get the place

> > ready, for obvious reasons. I know I can't live the next few years like

> > this, nada sucking up every free moment because she's destitute and living

> > in a place that is literally falling apart around her, while expecting me

> > and hubby to get there every time she needs/wants us. Last night during my

> > nightly " nada sitting chat " online we were discussing again about finding

> > her a new house as soon as possible, so she began looking through the MLS

> > listings yet again. She sent me 1 listing, and now wants me and hubby to

> > make a life altering decision. This is what I need help with.

> > >

> > > What nada has proposed is a property, not necessarily this one but

> > another similar to it, near where she lives now (which is over an hour

> > closer for hubby to work and back every day) that has acreage, 10+ acres...

> > with 2 houses... one for us and one for nada. She wants us to be " neighbors "

> > on the same property. She spent 2 hrs pointing out all of the positive

> > aspects of doing such a thing, which, to an average person would make a

> > whole world of sense. If not for the BPD situation I would probably already

> > be packing... lol

> > >

> > > Nada and I discussed some rules, she agreed it would all be drawn up by a

> > lawyer, giving hubby and myself all legal rights to " our " house up front,

> > and the entire property would be given to us in her will. I was adamant that

> > I would not even consider such a thing if she left one of the houses to my

> > sister. I have no relationship with my sister, she may also suffer with the

> > BPD, not sure... but she is an extremely cruel and unpleasant person to be

> > around, so I simply have a NC relationship with her that has worked for both

> > of us for 20+ yrs. Nada agreed happily, and said she would do it immediately

> > as part of our legal arrangement when the property was purchased.

> > >

> > > Nada is thinking of paying for this entire new property so hubby and I

> > can eliminate our house payment, and she has discussed splitting taxes with

> > us in a way that would work for all. The financial end of this would be a

> > huge help and plus for me and hubby and would allow us to better help our

> > kids as they need it from time to time. This arrangement also includes

> > allowing me use of the land and outbuildings for my own fish wholesale

> > business, something I have been doing small scale for yrs now due to lack of

> > space and finances to expand in any way. (in this business the only way to

> > make decent money is large scale wholesale) Nada agreed that this would also

> > be written into the legal documents to avoid any conflicts that may arise

> > through the rest of her life with us as neighbors.

> > >

> > > There were many plus's to considering this arrangement, so I discussed it

> > with hubby this morning. He also wishes to hear the opinions of the group

> > before we discuss it again.

> > >

> > > Taking care of nada now that she is getting old is something I will have

> > to do regardless of where I live. This arrangement would make that much

> > easier and less time consuming... however, as you all know already, it isn't

> > just that simple. I can imagine some of you are cringing just at the thought

> > of such a thing.

> > >

> > > I know talk is cheap, legal documents or not. The day to day stress of

> > living next door is what I am concerned about. In our current situation 2

> > 1/2 hrs away she made a comment one night at about 1am " I'm hungry, I wish

> > you lived closer because you could make me something to eat and bring it

> > over " . At that moment I was forever grateful to be living so far away and

> > vowed to never live closer to her again. Hubby and I talked then about her

> > demanding and controlling ways and what it would be like to live near her.

> > The thought of it still makes me feel ill sometimes.

> > >

> > > I know that doing something like this will keep her front and center in

> > our lives for the rest of hers... but I guess my question is, how much worse

> > could it be than having to travel so far (with me not able to drive anymore)

> > to take care of her for the rest of her life? Either way she will be sucking

> > my life away... which makes more sense? The property, upon her death, would

> > leave me and hubby set for life, no question about that. Am I talking about

> > selling my soul without realizing it?

> > >

> > > Nada knows we can't move for at least the next 3 yrs... that is the other

> > part of this thing I need help with. The place she is in now is killing me

> > and hubby with trying to take care of her and it. Its falling apart around

> > her and so full of antiques mixed with junk, cat piss, and filth that it

> > makes me ill just thinking about it. I am concerned that in nada's big new

> > adventure she is going to drag her feet on the current house, holding out

> > for the next 3 yrs when we're able to move, to set up the above mentioned

> > situation. I know neither hubby nor I can survive another 3 yrs of the way

> > things are now. That is without question. Its just too much for the 2 of us.

> > Our own house is now starting to fall apart around us because we are never

> > home enough to take care of it anymore, we're too busy with the never ending

> > work at nada's farm. That is what has sucked our lives away and what has

> > caused me such excessive stress... and ultimately, what eventually led me

> > here to this group. I was desperate enough only a few weeks ago to ask the

> > help of an online friend who is a shrink... as I feared for my own sanity.

> > >

> > > So, the big question... what would you do? How would you all approach

> > such a situation? If asked honestly, yes, I am considering this because of

> > some of the good points. Hubby agrees with me there... but that OVERWHELMING

> > FEAR of having her front and center in our faces 24/7 with her demands and

> > insults... is looming near. I have always expected that when she reaches a

> > point of needing more care than I can give, a live in caregiver is the only

> > option that makes any sense. Her insurance is enough that it shouldn't be

> > too difficult, but unless it is medically needed, the expense would all be

> > on me, and the way things are right now, I simply could not afford that.

> > This situation would help resolve that, I don't mind the extra house

> > cleaning if she's not standing over me giving me instructions each time. I

> > can help with her cooking by doing it at home and running it over to her

> > house once/day or every other day... and there would be times I wouldn't

> > mind " short " visits with her in our home. But how to set livable boundaries

> > for something like this? I can never again put myself out there where she

> > KNOWS I am at her mercy... never ever again. Be it financially or

> > emotionally.. I can't do that again.

> > > How would you do it? I keep thinking there has to be a way to make this

> > work, just the how that evades me.

> > >

> > > Hubby sends his thanks in advance, as do I, for any contributions to this

> > post. I knew the day would come that I'd have to make the hard choices (as

> > if life hasn't been hard enough already) but I didn't expect it quite this

> > soon. I am so grateful I have this group now to help me with these

> > decisions... and to support me no matter how I choose to proceed. The

> > understanding and caring in this group is unmatched anywhere I have ever

> > been before in my life.

> > >

> > > I look forward to all of your replies!

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

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Posted
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>

>

> So, the big question... what would you do?

RUN LIKE HELL AND DON'T LOOK BACK.

All I could think when I read about her offering to let you live in a 2nd home

on her property was, " NO! NO! NO! "

But do what your own gut tells you will be best. None of us can decide for you

what your limits are.

You know, there are professional organizers, etc., out there who can go through

your mother's things with her. You don't have to spend years doing it. If I

were in your shoes, I would say, " Mom, I've done about all I can for you.

Here's the number of someone who can help you better than I can. "

It looks like your mother is trying all she can to keep herself from being all

alone--even trying to use " rational " arguments and agree to legal documents.

But I think conflict will be inevitable if you agree to move with her. I can't

imagine even considering it, personally. But you're you and can do what you

think is best.

KT

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Posted

>

>

> So, the big question... what would you do?

RUN LIKE HELL AND DON'T LOOK BACK.

All I could think when I read about her offering to let you live in a 2nd home

on her property was, " NO! NO! NO! "

But do what your own gut tells you will be best. None of us can decide for you

what your limits are.

You know, there are professional organizers, etc., out there who can go through

your mother's things with her. You don't have to spend years doing it. If I

were in your shoes, I would say, " Mom, I've done about all I can for you.

Here's the number of someone who can help you better than I can. "

It looks like your mother is trying all she can to keep herself from being all

alone--even trying to use " rational " arguments and agree to legal documents.

But I think conflict will be inevitable if you agree to move with her. I can't

imagine even considering it, personally. But you're you and can do what you

think is best.

KT

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Posted
Posted

>

>

> So, the big question... what would you do?

RUN LIKE HELL AND DON'T LOOK BACK.

All I could think when I read about her offering to let you live in a 2nd home

on her property was, " NO! NO! NO! "

But do what your own gut tells you will be best. None of us can decide for you

what your limits are.

You know, there are professional organizers, etc., out there who can go through

your mother's things with her. You don't have to spend years doing it. If I

were in your shoes, I would say, " Mom, I've done about all I can for you.

Here's the number of someone who can help you better than I can. "

It looks like your mother is trying all she can to keep herself from being all

alone--even trying to use " rational " arguments and agree to legal documents.

But I think conflict will be inevitable if you agree to move with her. I can't

imagine even considering it, personally. But you're you and can do what you

think is best.

KT

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Its your choice, totally, but I urge you to read, print out and re-read Doug's

response that offers so much very grounded, realistic, and practical advice

about any legal/financial arrangements you make with your nada.

The recommendation that you only agree to live on the same property as your nada

IF you own all of it 100%, so that nada has no way of taking the property away

from you later when she changes her mind about leaving it to you in her will--

this makes enormous sense to me.

If you can't bring yourself to settle your nada in some kind of group

home/assisted living arrangement so that you are not personally providing her

daily care, then, at least don't leave yourself vulnerable to being financially

exploited by her for all the care-giving you intend to do.

-Annie

> >

> >

> > So, the big question... what would you do?

>

>

> RUN LIKE HELL AND DON'T LOOK BACK.

>

> All I could think when I read about her offering to let you live in a 2nd home

on her property was, " NO! NO! NO! "

>

> But do what your own gut tells you will be best. None of us can decide for

you what your limits are.

>

> You know, there are professional organizers, etc., out there who can go

through your mother's things with her. You don't have to spend years doing it.

If I were in your shoes, I would say, " Mom, I've done about all I can for you.

Here's the number of someone who can help you better than I can. "

>

> It looks like your mother is trying all she can to keep herself from being all

alone--even trying to use " rational " arguments and agree to legal documents.

But I think conflict will be inevitable if you agree to move with her. I can't

imagine even considering it, personally. But you're you and can do what you

think is best.

>

> KT

>

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I need to explain more about the situation with nada. I apologize for not

adding more background info, there is just so much to cover and my posts are

already so lengthy, but I can see that there is no effective way to shorten this

up and still get all the needed info out there before asking advice.

Let me start with this... nada is only going to be 61 in February. Group homes,

assisted living, etc... no way to get her into anything like that yet. I am

figuring it will be at least another 10 yrs before I can even think about

getting her into something like that. (not only due to age requirements for

that stuff around here, but she has not been formally diagnosed and she would

never agree to either)

Nada lives like a hermit. She and my step dad have lived that way for most of

the past 25 yrs. Nobody is allowed in her house, including me and my husband

because she has a large guard dog that just won't allow people inside easily.

Nada is fanatic about her animals, to an extreme, always has been. I used to

think she loved her pets more than her own children, not sure if that is the

case or just the BPD issues with her, but that is how it always seemed. Her

pets are extremely unsocialized because of the way she has lived for so long

and she is not willing to socialize them even with me at this point. Her claim

is that its too stressful, she can't handle it, and it stresses the animals so

much it will kill them. (remember, this is nada's world)

When hubby and I devote our 12 hr days on Saturdays to working at nada's farm,

we are not allowed to go into the house. If we need to use the bathroom, hubby

just waters a tree out in the wooded area behind the barn, I either hold it or

go through the issues of having to beg and listen to her complaints about how

badly I upset her dog by using her bathroom. I try to stop at a gas station

before we get to her house and then that is usually the first place we go when

we leave... just to use the bathroom and to wash up, too. Going into nada's

house isn't an option for anyone, she simply won't let anyone in. If someone

shows up without arranging it with her first, oh well, they are out of luck

because she either won't answer the door or she'll go outside and tell them

" sorry, you didn't call first, isn't happening " and then send them away.

(wonder why she has no friends, huh?)

As you have probably assumed by now, this means bringing in outside help of any

kind, even my own kids... is impossible. Nada simply won't let anyone on her

property. She doesn't trust anyone and believes that anyone who shows up to

help is simply there to rip her off or rape her, or both. After all, she is now

a widow and there alone on that big property all the time, nobody would know if

something was wrong... (nada's words) that is also the reason she insists I call

or sit online with her every single night to " check on her " . Nada's idea of

checking on her means hours of my time keeping her company, listening to her

rant, participating in her frequent pity parties, and of course, more ranting.

Skipping a night can result in a temper tantrum, weeks of listening to her

mention of how nobody cares about her well being, to hell with the world, etc.

and if its an extreme night... then we have something like the stunt of falling

down the basement stairs. Whatever it takes to get the attention she is craving

and insisting upon at any given time, that is what can usually be expected.

Yes, nada has some good moments, just not nearly enough of them. Her paranoia

and extremism taint everything she says, does, thinks, etc. While we all know

her behavior to be irrational and extreme, she believes she is the normal one

and other people just don't care enough, are heartless, thoughtless, etc. In

her world, nada is NEVER the cause of a problem, it is always someone's fault

just never hers. In her world, there also is no such thing as an accident. If

something goes " wrong " , then someone is at fault. All of the problems

throughout her life are all someone else's fault, always.

Nada is getting older, there is a limit to some of what she can do now, but by

no means is she an invalid or in need of in home care of any kind. There is no

way for her to care for a 32 acre farm alone, but regular daily tasks of taking

care of herself are not an issue, there is no worry of her burning the house

down while cooking or drowning in a bathtub, etc. This past week she was forced

to fix her own plumbing under her kitchen sink, in part because we couldn't get

there when she needed us to, and in part because she won't (in her words its

can't) let anyone into her house. Moving the dog crate to another room is near

impossible because of the condition of her house (the hoarding issue) and then

there are the dog's injuries when he rakes his face so badly against the bars

that he bleeds.

On one work day at nada's I had to use the bathroom bad enough it was worth the

hassle with her. I still wish I had gone to a gas station that day. I lifted

the lid on the toilet and I swear there was something alive in there... it had

gone uncleaned for so long it looked like algae/seaweed growing through the

whole bowl, it was " fuzzy " and brown and just awful. I had a difficult time

bringing myself to sit there long enough to use it. I offered to clean it

before I went back outside and was told no, not to touch it, just get outside

because her dog was hurting himself in his crate. For a week she ranted about

how rude I was in offering to clean her toilet, got lectured about how she is

capable but just hadn't had time because she had so much else to do. The

following week it was clean (yes, I went through the BS just to see for myself

that week) but about 3 - 4 wks later I saw it again and it was back to " fuzzy "

yet again.

Around town nada is known as " the crazy bird lady " because of her extremism with

her parrots. People my husband works with know my nada from the local pet store

where they used to work. It was a bit embarrassing to hear them refer to her

that way, but I had to agree, they were on the mark. They all showed sympathy

for my husband when they found out that the crazy bird lady was his mother in

law. Thankfully hubby handles all of this very well.

Nada is just as extreme with her parrots as she is the dog. It seems

everything, including someone talking to them (except nada) will make them sick

and/or kill them from stress. I grew up with these birds, she has had them

since I was about 12 - 13 yrs old, making the oldest one right around 30 yrs old

now. As a child I saw how she wanted them so desperately but then ended up

keeping them more for bragging rights than actual want of the pet birds. Nada

was the only one allowed to touch them most of the time and what little I did

handle them was usually without her knowledge just because I adored them and

felt sorry for them. Cleaning up after them was my job as a kid, but it was to

be done without interacting with them... and punishment for breaking that rule

was always severe.

Nada also has about 30+ barn cats, mostly wild. She feeds them twice/day every

day. They get canned cat food, dry cat food, water, and powdered milk every

day. Her barn smells like ammonia because of the amount of urine everywhere,

and a good portion of her farm smells the same way. The barn is the worst

because that is where she puts the hay bales for the cats. The hay bales stay

there for a year, then in the fall she puts that nasty hay around the outside of

her house for insulation (because, according to her, there is nothing wrong with

it) and then puts fresh bales into the barn for the cats. 3 - 4 times/wk she

fills up to six 5 gallon buckets with cat droppings form the litter boxes in the

barn and hauls them to the top of the hill and dumps them over... (fertilizer)

Most of the cats are sick, upper respiratory illness, eye infections, etc.

Everyone has been trying to get nada to get rid of the cats for years now, but

her excuse is that its too expensive to take them all to a shelter (they charge

for each cat dropped off), nobody wants to adopt them (because they are sick and

wild), and they just keep reproducing. I have tried endlessly over the past 2

yrs to get her to stop feeding them because it costs her over 200/month just to

support the cats with her fanatic habits... but of course, she can't do that

because then they would starve. I tried to tell her that cats shouldn't have

milk, but of course, what do I know? I'm just ignorant. I have told her

repeatedly that if they are wild then they should be able to survive and feed

themselves, but of course, again... I'm the dummy. Everyone knows that cats

hunt better and kill more mice if they are well fed and pampered, such as hers.

Everything in nada's life is just as extreme. Yrs ago I remember the lectures I

sat through because I didn't scrub MY kitchen floor on my hands and knees... the

world was about to end because I used a mop. Nada would refuse to come into my

apartment because in using a mop it meant my floors weren't really clean and I

would have cockroaches.

I'm sure you get the idea...

Today nada is still as extreme as always. The older she gets the more extreme

she seems to get about everything. There is no point in arguing with her over

anything because it never ends until she " wins " and is declared the one who is

right or until the other person just listens and does as she instructs. It is

usually easier just to let her rant and try your damned best to ignore it or

brush it off when she's through. Yes, often people, including myself, agree

with her just to shut her up about something, especially after weeks or even

months of listening to her rant about the same thing. Nada forgets nothing,

ever.

Nada's memory of things that have happened in the past is always distorted

because anything that was wrong was someone else's fault... she has told me a

number of times what a great mother she was and still is, how awful other

parents are with their kids, including myself at times. Nada will always live

in her own little world where she is the only source of perfection there is.

Alzheimer's runs in nada's family, so I am dreading a day when that may set in,

although it may make handling her a bit easier because I can legitimately get

her professional help and professional care at that time. Until then, I do the

best I can to be sure she isn't hurting anyone, including herself, and am trying

my damned best to clean up the huge mess on her farm so she can sell it. She is

good at dragging her feet on things, always distracted by trivial crap,

insisting we do the trivial work first so the real work is hardly touched. We

can't sell anything because she is convinced it is all worth so much money, so

she makes it my job to find out how much everything is worth. (that is a time

consuming, near impossible, pain in the ass) Because she insists she needs the

money to live on, the stuff she isn't keeping must get sold, but she asks more

than what the stuff is worth to anyone... so most of it is still sitting there

waiting for spring. She has mentioned having an auction, but I don't see that

happening. She has mentioned a yard sale, but again, I don't know if that will

happen either.

I offered to call Oprah and have her send a crew up to help nada with the

mess... but the lecture I got after that one was enough I will never suggest it

again. She threatened to have them all arrested for trespassing if I did decide

to go make that call.

This is just SOME of the background about nada. I am happy to answer anyone's

questions about her, please feel free to ask. Sometimes answering questions is

easier than trying to offer such a long history.

I very much appreciate all of the suggestions that were made here, but once

again, things are just not that simple for me. If there were any family left

other than me to look after her, help her, take care of her, etc. believe me, I

would gladly step back, but it is only me and hubby. After what my sister has

done over the past couple of yrs, I don't see nada ever being willing to talk to

her again other than a hello and a goodbye, unless she is intentionally trying

to cause trouble for my sister to " get even " .

One other thing before I end, so that its clear... nada's money (or imagined

money) means nothing to me. Yes, an inheritance would be wonderful some day,

but I have spent my entire life never expecting to inherit anything from anyone.

My father died a year ago and left it all to my sister, didn't even bother to

call me by name in his will... I was known as one of his " other seed " and could

only inherit if my sister's children and grandchildren were all dead before me.

When it all happened it didn't surprise me at all... just made me angry and

hurt. I was more hurt and angry about the way my 1/2 brother was treated

through our father's death, but that is another story.

My point is, the living arrangements with nada have nothing to do with me

wanting an inheritance from her, but everything to do with me simply wanting to

make my own life easier when it comes to taking care of her. Moving her closer

to me isn't an option because she refuses, keeps insisting hubby and me have to

move closer to her because she can't afford to give up all of her dr's and

dentists, etc. (its ok for us to do that, just not her) It is so hard driving

2 1/2 hrs every time we need to do something to help her. We pack food and make

an entire day of it because thats how it turns out... and it is physically

exhausting. Work days don't allow time for food or bathroom or anything but

work work work. Nada will set me to doing one thing and then insist I do 3 more

things at the same time, then complain because it isn't all getting done at

once, so she will take the tools away from me and start to do it herself...

leaving me there to just watch... which of course, isn't helping.

Hubby and I have been trying to get her moved to a house and property that is

small enough she can take care of it on her own, needing us only a few times/yr

to do some of the bigger work. Neither of us has a problem doing those things

for her, even dealing with the verbal abuse when she lets loose or is in a bad

mood, its when it becomes excessive, every single weekend, leaving us no time to

take care of our own house that the stress begins to wear on me. Her excuses of

needing a babysitter all the time because she is afraid she will get hurt on

that big ole farm and nobody would know it... also something we are expecting to

resolve once we get her moved and settled somewhere new. I just want an end to

the endless amount of work she seems to have for us to do, I want to see a light

at the end of the tunnel, however I can make that happen without abandoning her.

I want time to spend with my husband, I seldom even see him anymore because when

he's not at work or sleeping during the week, we are busy with our daughter's

school activities, shopping, and nada the rest of the time. I want to cook a

meal without my ear glued to a phone, I want to sleep without nada acting as my

alarm clock because she thinks I should be awake at that time. Nada can dangle

anything she wants in front of me to tempt me, but unless it is going to make my

life easier, I am not interested. That doesn't always stop her, but it

sometimes helps.

I hope this helps explain my situation a little better, and I will continue to

look forward to any/all feedback that is offered.

BTW... nada putting a property solely in my name... will never happen, there is

no point in even suggesting such a thing. Joint ownership, yes, I think she

would consider and agree to that, but not in my name only. She doesn't trust me

anymore than she trusts anyone else.

> > >

> > >

> > > So, the big question... what would you do?

> >

> >

> > RUN LIKE HELL AND DON'T LOOK BACK.

> >

> > All I could think when I read about her offering to let you live in a 2nd

home on her property was, " NO! NO! NO! "

> >

> > But do what your own gut tells you will be best. None of us can decide for

you what your limits are.

> >

> > You know, there are professional organizers, etc., out there who can go

through your mother's things with her. You don't have to spend years doing it.

If I were in your shoes, I would say, " Mom, I've done about all I can for you.

Here's the number of someone who can help you better than I can. "

> >

> > It looks like your mother is trying all she can to keep herself from being

all alone--even trying to use " rational " arguments and agree to legal documents.

But I think conflict will be inevitable if you agree to move with her. I can't

imagine even considering it, personally. But you're you and can do what you

think is best.

> >

> > KT

> >

>

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First I say well met sister. I share many many similar problems to my situation

as you and have much sympathy. I just got back from a visit to my nada's and

am still processing, it was extremely difficult and gave me much to ponder.

Some of it may apply to your situation too.

My nada also is a hoarder/hermit and I am an only child. She also is in a

situation where things are bad, even dangerous for her health, but not enough so

that she could be declared incompetent. And being declared incompetent would

be the only way to force her to live in a safe and healthy manner. A therapist

I saw once pointed out something very important which applies for you too -

realize that you are the one with the power here. She is completely dependent

on you to do what is needed and because of that she feels great insecurity and

need to control. One day, when you have the stomach for it you may want to turn

the tables and say " I will be here for you under these conditions and list them

a, b, c, etc. " Who else is she going to turn to?

I know it's not " that easy " though....a parent doesn't get the level of grip on

someone like yours has on you or mine has on me without some pretty significant

emotional leverage backing it up. I'm examining in my heart what do I believe I

owe? what do I need to do to be a good person in my own eyes? Because at the

end of the day I can never give enough or do enough for my nada to be Good. How

much more are you prepared to give? and why do you give it?

I think in the case of a hoarder who has animal and cleanliness issues and

thought process issues like ours that there's an extra component beyond BPD.

I'd encourage you to check out the children of hoarders website and groups if

you haven't already. Whatever personality disorder issues they have, they also

have true mental dysfunction - inability to perceive reality and space

accurately. If it were as obvious as for a schizophrenic, delusions and

hallucinations we could get them help, but it's *just close enough* to normal to

where they can fake it with those outside their immediate circle. Alzheimer's

also runs in my family and I've been doing reading that one of the first areas

in the brain to have trouble in Alzheimer's is the posterior cingulate gyrus and

in hoarders it's the anterior cingulate gyrus - pretty near eachother and not a

coincidence I suspect.

So as far as practical ideas go I'd advise you to look at what you are really

prepared to do and why. Maybe go over it with a therapist too and make sure

your hubby is on board. Then give your nada terms - tell her How It's Going To

Be. And yes I imagine that will be the most awful hardest conversation you may

ever have with her and she may indeed cut you off....but she may also cave

knowing that you are all she has. But something must change, you cannot keep on

as you are without harm to yourself.

Wishing you much luck and inspiration,

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Hi again armyinlaw, I just read the original post responding specifically to

this part

" I can never again put myself out there where she KNOWS I am at her mercy...

never ever again. Be it financially or emotionally.. I can't do that again. "

You've answered your question right there. For the love of God don't buy this

two houses on one property thing and get your living situation and your finances

entangled with hers. You will be at her mercy in one way or another no matter

how careful you are with the legal documents.

If there are enough assets in place for her to even talk about buying this two

house property outright, then there are enough assets for her to sell that farm

and move to assisted living and/or pay live in caregivers. But I know given

your other post about her hermit nature she'll likely refuse to do that and live

in filth instead. There's no doubt you've got *hard* choices ahead, some that

may involve letting things get pretty bad with her so that social services can

come in and declare her living conditions unsafe. I think the biggest leverage

these hermit hoarder types hold is that they know we can't bear to see them live

in horrible conditions. And people on the outside will judge and it stings -

I've gotten the " how can you let your sweet mother live like this " statement or

look many times. They have no friggin idea. Again please investigate the

children of hoarders Yahoo group and website. Your case is very similar to

others there. Also there's a book that just came out I'm planning to get

called Dirty Secret which is by the daughter of a hoarder and how she approached

things.

Good luck and HUGS,

P.S. - I'd also add you'll likely get the most traction looking at this from the

hoarder rather than the BPD point of view because it's the hoarding and lack of

self-care that drive the biggest part of the burden. The BPD behaviors are

absolutely awful too, but if we could trust that they could function socially

and get neighbors to help them or even let in paid helpers it was be a very

different ballgame.

..> wrote:

>

> Hi again to everyone. This is going to be a very long post. I ask everyone

to bear with me because I need all of the help and advice I can get on this one,

and only this group can really help me.

>

> As I mentioned in my introduction a couple of wks ago, my step father died

back in July, leaving nada entirely alone (for the first time in her life) with

a 32 acre mess due to their 20+ yrs of hoarding. Hubby and I live 2 1/2 hrs

away from nada, and this past year, taking care of her has literally sucked our

lives away. Every Saturday though the end of November was spent taking care of

nada and her farm mess with only myself and my husband to do the work.

>

> Being the oldest of 2 kids and the only one left now to take care of nada

leaves me in something of a bind legally, or soon will, when it comes to her

care. I have always known that day would eventually come, still not sure how I

will handle it.

>

> Nada is a real estate broker and understands she desperately needs to move as

soon as possible, but it seems to be taking forever to get the place ready, for

obvious reasons. I know I can't live the next few years like this, nada sucking

up every free moment because she's destitute and living in a place that is

literally falling apart around her, while expecting me and hubby to get there

every time she needs/wants us. Last night during my nightly " nada sitting chat "

online we were discussing again about finding her a new house as soon as

possible, so she began looking through the MLS listings yet again. She sent me

1 listing, and now wants me and hubby to make a life altering decision. This is

what I need help with.

>

> What nada has proposed is a property, not necessarily this one but another

similar to it, near where she lives now (which is over an hour closer for hubby

to work and back every day) that has acreage, 10+ acres... with 2 houses... one

for us and one for nada. She wants us to be " neighbors " on the same property.

She spent 2 hrs pointing out all of the positive aspects of doing such a thing,

which, to an average person would make a whole world of sense. If not for the

BPD situation I would probably already be packing... lol

>

> Nada and I discussed some rules, she agreed it would all be drawn up by a

lawyer, giving hubby and myself all legal rights to " our " house up front, and

the entire property would be given to us in her will. I was adamant that I

would not even consider such a thing if she left one of the houses to my sister.

I have no relationship with my sister, she may also suffer with the BPD, not

sure... but she is an extremely cruel and unpleasant person to be around, so I

simply have a NC relationship with her that has worked for both of us for 20+

yrs. Nada agreed happily, and said she would do it immediately as part of our

legal arrangement when the property was purchased.

>

> Nada is thinking of paying for this entire new property so hubby and I can

eliminate our house payment, and she has discussed splitting taxes with us in a

way that would work for all. The financial end of this would be a huge help and

plus for me and hubby and would allow us to better help our kids as they need it

from time to time. This arrangement also includes allowing me use of the land

and outbuildings for my own fish wholesale business, something I have been doing

small scale for yrs now due to lack of space and finances to expand in any way.

(in this business the only way to make decent money is large scale wholesale)

Nada agreed that this would also be written into the legal documents to avoid

any conflicts that may arise through the rest of her life with us as neighbors.

>

> There were many plus's to considering this arrangement, so I discussed it with

hubby this morning. He also wishes to hear the opinions of the group before we

discuss it again.

>

> Taking care of nada now that she is getting old is something I will have to do

regardless of where I live. This arrangement would make that much easier and

less time consuming... however, as you all know already, it isn't just that

simple. I can imagine some of you are cringing just at the thought of such a

thing.

>

> I know talk is cheap, legal documents or not. The day to day stress of living

next door is what I am concerned about. In our current situation 2 1/2 hrs away

she made a comment one night at about 1am " I'm hungry, I wish you lived closer

because you could make me something to eat and bring it over " . At that moment I

was forever grateful to be living so far away and vowed to never live closer to

her again. Hubby and I talked then about her demanding and controlling ways and

what it would be like to live near her. The thought of it still makes me feel

ill sometimes.

>

> I know that doing something like this will keep her front and center in our

lives for the rest of hers... but I guess my question is, how much worse could

it be than having to travel so far (with me not able to drive anymore) to take

care of her for the rest of her life? Either way she will be sucking my life

away... which makes more sense? The property, upon her death, would leave me

and hubby set for life, no question about that. Am I talking about selling my

soul without realizing it?

>

> Nada knows we can't move for at least the next 3 yrs... that is the other part

of this thing I need help with. The place she is in now is killing me and hubby

with trying to take care of her and it. Its falling apart around her and so

full of antiques mixed with junk, cat piss, and filth that it makes me ill just

thinking about it. I am concerned that in nada's big new adventure she is going

to drag her feet on the current house, holding out for the next 3 yrs when we're

able to move, to set up the above mentioned situation. I know neither hubby nor

I can survive another 3 yrs of the way things are now. That is without

question. Its just too much for the 2 of us. Our own house is now starting to

fall apart around us because we are never home enough to take care of it

anymore, we're too busy with the never ending work at nada's farm. That is what

has sucked our lives away and what has caused me such excessive stress... and

ultimately, what eventually led me here to this group. I was desperate enough

only a few weeks ago to ask the help of an online friend who is a shrink... as I

feared for my own sanity.

>

> So, the big question... what would you do? How would you all approach such a

situation? If asked honestly, yes, I am considering this because of some of

the good points. Hubby agrees with me there... but that OVERWHELMING FEAR of

having her front and center in our faces 24/7 with her demands and insults... is

looming near. I have always expected that when she reaches a point of needing

more care than I can give, a live in caregiver is the only option that makes any

sense. Her insurance is enough that it shouldn't be too difficult, but unless

it is medically needed, the expense would all be on me, and the way things are

right now, I simply could not afford that. This situation would help resolve

that, I don't mind the extra house cleaning if she's not standing over me giving

me instructions each time. I can help with her cooking by doing it at home and

running it over to her house once/day or every other day... and there would be

times I wouldn't mind " short " visits with her in our home. But how to set

livable boundaries for something like this? I can never again put myself out

there where she KNOWS I am at her mercy... never ever again. Be it financially

or emotionally.. I can't do that again.

> How would you do it? I keep thinking there has to be a way to make this work,

just the how that evades me.

>

> Hubby sends his thanks in advance, as do I, for any contributions to this

post. I knew the day would come that I'd have to make the hard choices (as if

life hasn't been hard enough already) but I didn't expect it quite this soon. I

am so grateful I have this group now to help me with these decisions... and to

support me no matter how I choose to proceed. The understanding and caring in

this group is unmatched anywhere I have ever been before in my life.

>

> I look forward to all of your replies!

>

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Posted
Posted

Hi again armyinlaw, I just read the original post responding specifically to

this part

" I can never again put myself out there where she KNOWS I am at her mercy...

never ever again. Be it financially or emotionally.. I can't do that again. "

You've answered your question right there. For the love of God don't buy this

two houses on one property thing and get your living situation and your finances

entangled with hers. You will be at her mercy in one way or another no matter

how careful you are with the legal documents.

If there are enough assets in place for her to even talk about buying this two

house property outright, then there are enough assets for her to sell that farm

and move to assisted living and/or pay live in caregivers. But I know given

your other post about her hermit nature she'll likely refuse to do that and live

in filth instead. There's no doubt you've got *hard* choices ahead, some that

may involve letting things get pretty bad with her so that social services can

come in and declare her living conditions unsafe. I think the biggest leverage

these hermit hoarder types hold is that they know we can't bear to see them live

in horrible conditions. And people on the outside will judge and it stings -

I've gotten the " how can you let your sweet mother live like this " statement or

look many times. They have no friggin idea. Again please investigate the

children of hoarders Yahoo group and website. Your case is very similar to

others there. Also there's a book that just came out I'm planning to get

called Dirty Secret which is by the daughter of a hoarder and how she approached

things.

Good luck and HUGS,

P.S. - I'd also add you'll likely get the most traction looking at this from the

hoarder rather than the BPD point of view because it's the hoarding and lack of

self-care that drive the biggest part of the burden. The BPD behaviors are

absolutely awful too, but if we could trust that they could function socially

and get neighbors to help them or even let in paid helpers it was be a very

different ballgame.

..> wrote:

>

> Hi again to everyone. This is going to be a very long post. I ask everyone

to bear with me because I need all of the help and advice I can get on this one,

and only this group can really help me.

>

> As I mentioned in my introduction a couple of wks ago, my step father died

back in July, leaving nada entirely alone (for the first time in her life) with

a 32 acre mess due to their 20+ yrs of hoarding. Hubby and I live 2 1/2 hrs

away from nada, and this past year, taking care of her has literally sucked our

lives away. Every Saturday though the end of November was spent taking care of

nada and her farm mess with only myself and my husband to do the work.

>

> Being the oldest of 2 kids and the only one left now to take care of nada

leaves me in something of a bind legally, or soon will, when it comes to her

care. I have always known that day would eventually come, still not sure how I

will handle it.

>

> Nada is a real estate broker and understands she desperately needs to move as

soon as possible, but it seems to be taking forever to get the place ready, for

obvious reasons. I know I can't live the next few years like this, nada sucking

up every free moment because she's destitute and living in a place that is

literally falling apart around her, while expecting me and hubby to get there

every time she needs/wants us. Last night during my nightly " nada sitting chat "

online we were discussing again about finding her a new house as soon as

possible, so she began looking through the MLS listings yet again. She sent me

1 listing, and now wants me and hubby to make a life altering decision. This is

what I need help with.

>

> What nada has proposed is a property, not necessarily this one but another

similar to it, near where she lives now (which is over an hour closer for hubby

to work and back every day) that has acreage, 10+ acres... with 2 houses... one

for us and one for nada. She wants us to be " neighbors " on the same property.

She spent 2 hrs pointing out all of the positive aspects of doing such a thing,

which, to an average person would make a whole world of sense. If not for the

BPD situation I would probably already be packing... lol

>

> Nada and I discussed some rules, she agreed it would all be drawn up by a

lawyer, giving hubby and myself all legal rights to " our " house up front, and

the entire property would be given to us in her will. I was adamant that I

would not even consider such a thing if she left one of the houses to my sister.

I have no relationship with my sister, she may also suffer with the BPD, not

sure... but she is an extremely cruel and unpleasant person to be around, so I

simply have a NC relationship with her that has worked for both of us for 20+

yrs. Nada agreed happily, and said she would do it immediately as part of our

legal arrangement when the property was purchased.

>

> Nada is thinking of paying for this entire new property so hubby and I can

eliminate our house payment, and she has discussed splitting taxes with us in a

way that would work for all. The financial end of this would be a huge help and

plus for me and hubby and would allow us to better help our kids as they need it

from time to time. This arrangement also includes allowing me use of the land

and outbuildings for my own fish wholesale business, something I have been doing

small scale for yrs now due to lack of space and finances to expand in any way.

(in this business the only way to make decent money is large scale wholesale)

Nada agreed that this would also be written into the legal documents to avoid

any conflicts that may arise through the rest of her life with us as neighbors.

>

> There were many plus's to considering this arrangement, so I discussed it with

hubby this morning. He also wishes to hear the opinions of the group before we

discuss it again.

>

> Taking care of nada now that she is getting old is something I will have to do

regardless of where I live. This arrangement would make that much easier and

less time consuming... however, as you all know already, it isn't just that

simple. I can imagine some of you are cringing just at the thought of such a

thing.

>

> I know talk is cheap, legal documents or not. The day to day stress of living

next door is what I am concerned about. In our current situation 2 1/2 hrs away

she made a comment one night at about 1am " I'm hungry, I wish you lived closer

because you could make me something to eat and bring it over " . At that moment I

was forever grateful to be living so far away and vowed to never live closer to

her again. Hubby and I talked then about her demanding and controlling ways and

what it would be like to live near her. The thought of it still makes me feel

ill sometimes.

>

> I know that doing something like this will keep her front and center in our

lives for the rest of hers... but I guess my question is, how much worse could

it be than having to travel so far (with me not able to drive anymore) to take

care of her for the rest of her life? Either way she will be sucking my life

away... which makes more sense? The property, upon her death, would leave me

and hubby set for life, no question about that. Am I talking about selling my

soul without realizing it?

>

> Nada knows we can't move for at least the next 3 yrs... that is the other part

of this thing I need help with. The place she is in now is killing me and hubby

with trying to take care of her and it. Its falling apart around her and so

full of antiques mixed with junk, cat piss, and filth that it makes me ill just

thinking about it. I am concerned that in nada's big new adventure she is going

to drag her feet on the current house, holding out for the next 3 yrs when we're

able to move, to set up the above mentioned situation. I know neither hubby nor

I can survive another 3 yrs of the way things are now. That is without

question. Its just too much for the 2 of us. Our own house is now starting to

fall apart around us because we are never home enough to take care of it

anymore, we're too busy with the never ending work at nada's farm. That is what

has sucked our lives away and what has caused me such excessive stress... and

ultimately, what eventually led me here to this group. I was desperate enough

only a few weeks ago to ask the help of an online friend who is a shrink... as I

feared for my own sanity.

>

> So, the big question... what would you do? How would you all approach such a

situation? If asked honestly, yes, I am considering this because of some of

the good points. Hubby agrees with me there... but that OVERWHELMING FEAR of

having her front and center in our faces 24/7 with her demands and insults... is

looming near. I have always expected that when she reaches a point of needing

more care than I can give, a live in caregiver is the only option that makes any

sense. Her insurance is enough that it shouldn't be too difficult, but unless

it is medically needed, the expense would all be on me, and the way things are

right now, I simply could not afford that. This situation would help resolve

that, I don't mind the extra house cleaning if she's not standing over me giving

me instructions each time. I can help with her cooking by doing it at home and

running it over to her house once/day or every other day... and there would be

times I wouldn't mind " short " visits with her in our home. But how to set

livable boundaries for something like this? I can never again put myself out

there where she KNOWS I am at her mercy... never ever again. Be it financially

or emotionally.. I can't do that again.

> How would you do it? I keep thinking there has to be a way to make this work,

just the how that evades me.

>

> Hubby sends his thanks in advance, as do I, for any contributions to this

post. I knew the day would come that I'd have to make the hard choices (as if

life hasn't been hard enough already) but I didn't expect it quite this soon. I

am so grateful I have this group now to help me with these decisions... and to

support me no matter how I choose to proceed. The understanding and caring in

this group is unmatched anywhere I have ever been before in my life.

>

> I look forward to all of your replies!

>

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Posted
Posted

Hi ,

After some long discussions with hubby who is open to whatever I decide, I told

him tonight that our answer for her has to be no. The funny thing is that with

all of the good reasons everyone here offered me, with all of the good reasons

hubby and I came up with, the one that finally really sold me on the firm " no "

is the thought of having to take care of such a place for the rest of our lives,

or close to it. We are struggling right now at age 41 to take care of our own

house and still handle nada's place on the weekends whenever the weather allows.

I have spent the last 6 months setting goals of just getting her moved so we

don't have to do her farm work anymore and can get home to take care of our

house that is slowly falling apart because of neglect (not being here enough to

do the work). The money we were supposed to use for work and general

maintenance on our own house has been spent in gas money to take care of hers.

Each weekend we go there it costs about $40 - 50 in gas, and that was before the

prices just went up to over $3/gallon recently. Now it will likely cost 60+

each time. We are still recovering from and tied to a bankruptcy for the next 3

1/2 yrs, and our finances should be good, but now are dwindling fast again, with

nothing to show for it.

Much of nada's financial situation is imagined in her own head. When she bought

her farm 26 yrs ago she paid under 200k for it. Today she is convinced it is

worth 500k - 600k and determined she has to get at least 500k to buy another

place and survive for the rest of her life. Because she is a real estate broker

there is no arguing this point with her, so I don't. She has found some

wonderful houses for around 300k, which she probably could get quite easily for

her farm, but nothing is " the right one " yet. Yes, she is dragging her feet, I

know this, am unable to stop that. Once we get the mess cleaned up on her farm

hubby and I won't feel as obligated to " help " her anymore and our visits will

back off... which I'm hoping will inspire her to take the next step and sell

that place and stop this madness. The excuses she has now for us to come

running will no longer be there, and as she found out recently, we do have our

limits, which forces her to do for herself or go without. I listen to her

whining about going without until she moves onto the next thing, try to detach

myself from it as best I can until she stops.

But, what I keep going back to is the physical energy it would take to care for

a property such as she is proposing. To forever be saddled with care and

maintenance of 2 houses, even if they are on the same property, would simply eat

our lives away until it killed us. I will not die for her no matter how much I

love her. I will not stand up and willingly offer to put myself in a situation

like that no matter how much she dislikes it or how bad her tantrums get to be.

If she were healthy and sane, I still would not volunteer for that.

So... the answer to her will be no, now its just a matter of finding a way to

explain it to her that she will grasp and accept, and then dealing with her

tantrums over it. If she chooses to leave everything she owns to charity

because of it, then so be it... I don't take care of her for the money, never

have, never will. I have a good enough life without it as long as I have my

husband and children, my life is full. It was never the money or inheritance

that tempted me, just the thought that taking care of her would be easier

because she would be in her own house but right there, no more endless trips to

do it. It was the time, the convenience that tempted me, but the more I think

about it the more I see how the time and inconvenience of those trips would be

overrun with other things. The distance is still a good reason to not be able

to get to her when she claims we must, and I prefer this to that.

Thank you all for your contributions, it gave me so much to think about while

weighing my decision. If anyone has more ideas on how to break the news to

nada, I'm all ears! lol

> >

> > Hi again to everyone. This is going to be a very long post. I ask everyone

to bear with me because I need all of the help and advice I can get on this one,

and only this group can really help me.

> >

> > As I mentioned in my introduction a couple of wks ago, my step father died

back in July, leaving nada entirely alone (for the first time in her life) with

a 32 acre mess due to their 20+ yrs of hoarding. Hubby and I live 2 1/2 hrs

away from nada, and this past year, taking care of her has literally sucked our

lives away. Every Saturday though the end of November was spent taking care of

nada and her farm mess with only myself and my husband to do the work.

> >

> > Being the oldest of 2 kids and the only one left now to take care of nada

leaves me in something of a bind legally, or soon will, when it comes to her

care. I have always known that day would eventually come, still not sure how I

will handle it.

> >

> > Nada is a real estate broker and understands she desperately needs to move

as soon as possible, but it seems to be taking forever to get the place ready,

for obvious reasons. I know I can't live the next few years like this, nada

sucking up every free moment because she's destitute and living in a place that

is literally falling apart around her, while expecting me and hubby to get there

every time she needs/wants us. Last night during my nightly " nada sitting chat "

online we were discussing again about finding her a new house as soon as

possible, so she began looking through the MLS listings yet again. She sent me

1 listing, and now wants me and hubby to make a life altering decision. This is

what I need help with.

> >

> > What nada has proposed is a property, not necessarily this one but another

similar to it, near where she lives now (which is over an hour closer for hubby

to work and back every day) that has acreage, 10+ acres... with 2 houses... one

for us and one for nada. She wants us to be " neighbors " on the same property.

She spent 2 hrs pointing out all of the positive aspects of doing such a thing,

which, to an average person would make a whole world of sense. If not for the

BPD situation I would probably already be packing... lol

> >

> > Nada and I discussed some rules, she agreed it would all be drawn up by a

lawyer, giving hubby and myself all legal rights to " our " house up front, and

the entire property would be given to us in her will. I was adamant that I

would not even consider such a thing if she left one of the houses to my sister.

I have no relationship with my sister, she may also suffer with the BPD, not

sure... but she is an extremely cruel and unpleasant person to be around, so I

simply have a NC relationship with her that has worked for both of us for 20+

yrs. Nada agreed happily, and said she would do it immediately as part of our

legal arrangement when the property was purchased.

> >

> > Nada is thinking of paying for this entire new property so hubby and I can

eliminate our house payment, and she has discussed splitting taxes with us in a

way that would work for all. The financial end of this would be a huge help and

plus for me and hubby and would allow us to better help our kids as they need it

from time to time. This arrangement also includes allowing me use of the land

and outbuildings for my own fish wholesale business, something I have been doing

small scale for yrs now due to lack of space and finances to expand in any way.

(in this business the only way to make decent money is large scale wholesale)

Nada agreed that this would also be written into the legal documents to avoid

any conflicts that may arise through the rest of her life with us as neighbors.

> >

> > There were many plus's to considering this arrangement, so I discussed it

with hubby this morning. He also wishes to hear the opinions of the group

before we discuss it again.

> >

> > Taking care of nada now that she is getting old is something I will have to

do regardless of where I live. This arrangement would make that much easier and

less time consuming... however, as you all know already, it isn't just that

simple. I can imagine some of you are cringing just at the thought of such a

thing.

> >

> > I know talk is cheap, legal documents or not. The day to day stress of

living next door is what I am concerned about. In our current situation 2 1/2

hrs away she made a comment one night at about 1am " I'm hungry, I wish you lived

closer because you could make me something to eat and bring it over " . At that

moment I was forever grateful to be living so far away and vowed to never live

closer to her again. Hubby and I talked then about her demanding and

controlling ways and what it would be like to live near her. The thought of it

still makes me feel ill sometimes.

> >

> > I know that doing something like this will keep her front and center in our

lives for the rest of hers... but I guess my question is, how much worse could

it be than having to travel so far (with me not able to drive anymore) to take

care of her for the rest of her life? Either way she will be sucking my life

away... which makes more sense? The property, upon her death, would leave me

and hubby set for life, no question about that. Am I talking about selling my

soul without realizing it?

> >

> > Nada knows we can't move for at least the next 3 yrs... that is the other

part of this thing I need help with. The place she is in now is killing me and

hubby with trying to take care of her and it. Its falling apart around her and

so full of antiques mixed with junk, cat piss, and filth that it makes me ill

just thinking about it. I am concerned that in nada's big new adventure she is

going to drag her feet on the current house, holding out for the next 3 yrs when

we're able to move, to set up the above mentioned situation. I know neither

hubby nor I can survive another 3 yrs of the way things are now. That is

without question. Its just too much for the 2 of us. Our own house is now

starting to fall apart around us because we are never home enough to take care

of it anymore, we're too busy with the never ending work at nada's farm. That

is what has sucked our lives away and what has caused me such excessive

stress... and ultimately, what eventually led me here to this group. I was

desperate enough only a few weeks ago to ask the help of an online friend who is

a shrink... as I feared for my own sanity.

> >

> > So, the big question... what would you do? How would you all approach such

a situation? If asked honestly, yes, I am considering this because of some of

the good points. Hubby agrees with me there... but that OVERWHELMING FEAR of

having her front and center in our faces 24/7 with her demands and insults... is

looming near. I have always expected that when she reaches a point of needing

more care than I can give, a live in caregiver is the only option that makes any

sense. Her insurance is enough that it shouldn't be too difficult, but unless

it is medically needed, the expense would all be on me, and the way things are

right now, I simply could not afford that. This situation would help resolve

that, I don't mind the extra house cleaning if she's not standing over me giving

me instructions each time. I can help with her cooking by doing it at home and

running it over to her house once/day or every other day... and there would be

times I wouldn't mind " short " visits with her in our home. But how to set

livable boundaries for something like this? I can never again put myself out

there where she KNOWS I am at her mercy... never ever again. Be it financially

or emotionally.. I can't do that again.

> > How would you do it? I keep thinking there has to be a way to make this

work, just the how that evades me.

> >

> > Hubby sends his thanks in advance, as do I, for any contributions to this

post. I knew the day would come that I'd have to make the hard choices (as if

life hasn't been hard enough already) but I didn't expect it quite this soon. I

am so grateful I have this group now to help me with these decisions... and to

support me no matter how I choose to proceed. The understanding and caring in

this group is unmatched anywhere I have ever been before in my life.

> >

> > I look forward to all of your replies!

> >

>

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Hi ,

After some long discussions with hubby who is open to whatever I decide, I told

him tonight that our answer for her has to be no. The funny thing is that with

all of the good reasons everyone here offered me, with all of the good reasons

hubby and I came up with, the one that finally really sold me on the firm " no "

is the thought of having to take care of such a place for the rest of our lives,

or close to it. We are struggling right now at age 41 to take care of our own

house and still handle nada's place on the weekends whenever the weather allows.

I have spent the last 6 months setting goals of just getting her moved so we

don't have to do her farm work anymore and can get home to take care of our

house that is slowly falling apart because of neglect (not being here enough to

do the work). The money we were supposed to use for work and general

maintenance on our own house has been spent in gas money to take care of hers.

Each weekend we go there it costs about $40 - 50 in gas, and that was before the

prices just went up to over $3/gallon recently. Now it will likely cost 60+

each time. We are still recovering from and tied to a bankruptcy for the next 3

1/2 yrs, and our finances should be good, but now are dwindling fast again, with

nothing to show for it.

Much of nada's financial situation is imagined in her own head. When she bought

her farm 26 yrs ago she paid under 200k for it. Today she is convinced it is

worth 500k - 600k and determined she has to get at least 500k to buy another

place and survive for the rest of her life. Because she is a real estate broker

there is no arguing this point with her, so I don't. She has found some

wonderful houses for around 300k, which she probably could get quite easily for

her farm, but nothing is " the right one " yet. Yes, she is dragging her feet, I

know this, am unable to stop that. Once we get the mess cleaned up on her farm

hubby and I won't feel as obligated to " help " her anymore and our visits will

back off... which I'm hoping will inspire her to take the next step and sell

that place and stop this madness. The excuses she has now for us to come

running will no longer be there, and as she found out recently, we do have our

limits, which forces her to do for herself or go without. I listen to her

whining about going without until she moves onto the next thing, try to detach

myself from it as best I can until she stops.

But, what I keep going back to is the physical energy it would take to care for

a property such as she is proposing. To forever be saddled with care and

maintenance of 2 houses, even if they are on the same property, would simply eat

our lives away until it killed us. I will not die for her no matter how much I

love her. I will not stand up and willingly offer to put myself in a situation

like that no matter how much she dislikes it or how bad her tantrums get to be.

If she were healthy and sane, I still would not volunteer for that.

So... the answer to her will be no, now its just a matter of finding a way to

explain it to her that she will grasp and accept, and then dealing with her

tantrums over it. If she chooses to leave everything she owns to charity

because of it, then so be it... I don't take care of her for the money, never

have, never will. I have a good enough life without it as long as I have my

husband and children, my life is full. It was never the money or inheritance

that tempted me, just the thought that taking care of her would be easier

because she would be in her own house but right there, no more endless trips to

do it. It was the time, the convenience that tempted me, but the more I think

about it the more I see how the time and inconvenience of those trips would be

overrun with other things. The distance is still a good reason to not be able

to get to her when she claims we must, and I prefer this to that.

Thank you all for your contributions, it gave me so much to think about while

weighing my decision. If anyone has more ideas on how to break the news to

nada, I'm all ears! lol

> >

> > Hi again to everyone. This is going to be a very long post. I ask everyone

to bear with me because I need all of the help and advice I can get on this one,

and only this group can really help me.

> >

> > As I mentioned in my introduction a couple of wks ago, my step father died

back in July, leaving nada entirely alone (for the first time in her life) with

a 32 acre mess due to their 20+ yrs of hoarding. Hubby and I live 2 1/2 hrs

away from nada, and this past year, taking care of her has literally sucked our

lives away. Every Saturday though the end of November was spent taking care of

nada and her farm mess with only myself and my husband to do the work.

> >

> > Being the oldest of 2 kids and the only one left now to take care of nada

leaves me in something of a bind legally, or soon will, when it comes to her

care. I have always known that day would eventually come, still not sure how I

will handle it.

> >

> > Nada is a real estate broker and understands she desperately needs to move

as soon as possible, but it seems to be taking forever to get the place ready,

for obvious reasons. I know I can't live the next few years like this, nada

sucking up every free moment because she's destitute and living in a place that

is literally falling apart around her, while expecting me and hubby to get there

every time she needs/wants us. Last night during my nightly " nada sitting chat "

online we were discussing again about finding her a new house as soon as

possible, so she began looking through the MLS listings yet again. She sent me

1 listing, and now wants me and hubby to make a life altering decision. This is

what I need help with.

> >

> > What nada has proposed is a property, not necessarily this one but another

similar to it, near where she lives now (which is over an hour closer for hubby

to work and back every day) that has acreage, 10+ acres... with 2 houses... one

for us and one for nada. She wants us to be " neighbors " on the same property.

She spent 2 hrs pointing out all of the positive aspects of doing such a thing,

which, to an average person would make a whole world of sense. If not for the

BPD situation I would probably already be packing... lol

> >

> > Nada and I discussed some rules, she agreed it would all be drawn up by a

lawyer, giving hubby and myself all legal rights to " our " house up front, and

the entire property would be given to us in her will. I was adamant that I

would not even consider such a thing if she left one of the houses to my sister.

I have no relationship with my sister, she may also suffer with the BPD, not

sure... but she is an extremely cruel and unpleasant person to be around, so I

simply have a NC relationship with her that has worked for both of us for 20+

yrs. Nada agreed happily, and said she would do it immediately as part of our

legal arrangement when the property was purchased.

> >

> > Nada is thinking of paying for this entire new property so hubby and I can

eliminate our house payment, and she has discussed splitting taxes with us in a

way that would work for all. The financial end of this would be a huge help and

plus for me and hubby and would allow us to better help our kids as they need it

from time to time. This arrangement also includes allowing me use of the land

and outbuildings for my own fish wholesale business, something I have been doing

small scale for yrs now due to lack of space and finances to expand in any way.

(in this business the only way to make decent money is large scale wholesale)

Nada agreed that this would also be written into the legal documents to avoid

any conflicts that may arise through the rest of her life with us as neighbors.

> >

> > There were many plus's to considering this arrangement, so I discussed it

with hubby this morning. He also wishes to hear the opinions of the group

before we discuss it again.

> >

> > Taking care of nada now that she is getting old is something I will have to

do regardless of where I live. This arrangement would make that much easier and

less time consuming... however, as you all know already, it isn't just that

simple. I can imagine some of you are cringing just at the thought of such a

thing.

> >

> > I know talk is cheap, legal documents or not. The day to day stress of

living next door is what I am concerned about. In our current situation 2 1/2

hrs away she made a comment one night at about 1am " I'm hungry, I wish you lived

closer because you could make me something to eat and bring it over " . At that

moment I was forever grateful to be living so far away and vowed to never live

closer to her again. Hubby and I talked then about her demanding and

controlling ways and what it would be like to live near her. The thought of it

still makes me feel ill sometimes.

> >

> > I know that doing something like this will keep her front and center in our

lives for the rest of hers... but I guess my question is, how much worse could

it be than having to travel so far (with me not able to drive anymore) to take

care of her for the rest of her life? Either way she will be sucking my life

away... which makes more sense? The property, upon her death, would leave me

and hubby set for life, no question about that. Am I talking about selling my

soul without realizing it?

> >

> > Nada knows we can't move for at least the next 3 yrs... that is the other

part of this thing I need help with. The place she is in now is killing me and

hubby with trying to take care of her and it. Its falling apart around her and

so full of antiques mixed with junk, cat piss, and filth that it makes me ill

just thinking about it. I am concerned that in nada's big new adventure she is

going to drag her feet on the current house, holding out for the next 3 yrs when

we're able to move, to set up the above mentioned situation. I know neither

hubby nor I can survive another 3 yrs of the way things are now. That is

without question. Its just too much for the 2 of us. Our own house is now

starting to fall apart around us because we are never home enough to take care

of it anymore, we're too busy with the never ending work at nada's farm. That

is what has sucked our lives away and what has caused me such excessive

stress... and ultimately, what eventually led me here to this group. I was

desperate enough only a few weeks ago to ask the help of an online friend who is

a shrink... as I feared for my own sanity.

> >

> > So, the big question... what would you do? How would you all approach such

a situation? If asked honestly, yes, I am considering this because of some of

the good points. Hubby agrees with me there... but that OVERWHELMING FEAR of

having her front and center in our faces 24/7 with her demands and insults... is

looming near. I have always expected that when she reaches a point of needing

more care than I can give, a live in caregiver is the only option that makes any

sense. Her insurance is enough that it shouldn't be too difficult, but unless

it is medically needed, the expense would all be on me, and the way things are

right now, I simply could not afford that. This situation would help resolve

that, I don't mind the extra house cleaning if she's not standing over me giving

me instructions each time. I can help with her cooking by doing it at home and

running it over to her house once/day or every other day... and there would be

times I wouldn't mind " short " visits with her in our home. But how to set

livable boundaries for something like this? I can never again put myself out

there where she KNOWS I am at her mercy... never ever again. Be it financially

or emotionally.. I can't do that again.

> > How would you do it? I keep thinking there has to be a way to make this

work, just the how that evades me.

> >

> > Hubby sends his thanks in advance, as do I, for any contributions to this

post. I knew the day would come that I'd have to make the hard choices (as if

life hasn't been hard enough already) but I didn't expect it quite this soon. I

am so grateful I have this group now to help me with these decisions... and to

support me no matter how I choose to proceed. The understanding and caring in

this group is unmatched anywhere I have ever been before in my life.

> >

> > I look forward to all of your replies!

> >

>

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Posted
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As the daughter of a hoarder, this statement struck me " Once we get the

mess cleaned up on her farm hubby and I won't feel as obligated to " help "

her anymore and our visits will back off... which I'm hoping will inspire

her to take the next step and sell that place and stop this madness. "

My nada made messes, added to her hoarding and made it worse faster than I

could clean it up. I don't know why a hoarder would either 1)Suddenly stop

hoarding without major therapy and mental health help or incarceration or 2)

Care about the time and energy you put into helping her. In my experience,

its a compulsion and they do not just stop. You are spending 12 hours a week

cleaning up her hoarding. She has the rest of the week to hoard. Whose going

to win the race?

>

>

> Hi ,

> After some long discussions with hubby who is open to whatever I decide, I

> told him tonight that our answer for her has to be no. The funny thing is

> that with all of the good reasons everyone here offered me, with all of the

> good reasons hubby and I came up with, the one that finally really sold me

> on the firm " no " is the thought of having to take care of such a place for

> the rest of our lives, or close to it. We are struggling right now at age 41

> to take care of our own house and still handle nada's place on the weekends

> whenever the weather allows. I have spent the last 6 months setting goals of

> just getting her moved so we don't have to do her farm work anymore and can

> get home to take care of our house that is slowly falling apart because of

> neglect (not being here enough to do the work). The money we were supposed

> to use for work and general maintenance on our own house has been spent in

> gas money to take care of hers. Each weekend we go there it costs about $40

> - 50 in gas, and that was before the prices just went up to over $3/gallon

> recently. Now it will likely cost 60+ each time. We are still recovering

> from and tied to a bankruptcy for the next 3 1/2 yrs, and our finances

> should be good, but now are dwindling fast again, with nothing to show for

> it.

> Much of nada's financial situation is imagined in her own head. When she

> bought her farm 26 yrs ago she paid under 200k for it. Today she is

> convinced it is worth 500k - 600k and determined she has to get at least

> 500k to buy another place and survive for the rest of her life. Because she

> is a real estate broker there is no arguing this point with her, so I don't.

> She has found some wonderful houses for around 300k, which she probably

> could get quite easily for her farm, but nothing is " the right one " yet.

> Yes, she is dragging her feet, I know this, am unable to stop that. Once we

> get the mess cleaned up on her farm hubby and I won't feel as obligated to

> " help " her anymore and our visits will back off... which I'm hoping will

> inspire her to take the next step and sell that place and stop this madness.

> The excuses she has now for us to come running will no longer be there, and

> as she found out recently, we do have our limits, which forces her to do for

> herself or go without. I listen to her whining about going without until she

> moves onto the next thing, try to detach myself from it as best I can until

> she stops.

>

> But, what I keep going back to is the physical energy it would take to care

> for a property such as she is proposing. To forever be saddled with care and

> maintenance of 2 houses, even if they are on the same property, would simply

> eat our lives away until it killed us. I will not die for her no matter how

> much I love her. I will not stand up and willingly offer to put myself in a

> situation like that no matter how much she dislikes it or how bad her

> tantrums get to be. If she were healthy and sane, I still would not

> volunteer for that.

>

> So... the answer to her will be no, now its just a matter of finding a way

> to explain it to her that she will grasp and accept, and then dealing with

> her tantrums over it. If she chooses to leave everything she owns to charity

> because of it, then so be it... I don't take care of her for the money,

> never have, never will. I have a good enough life without it as long as I

> have my husband and children, my life is full. It was never the money or

> inheritance that tempted me, just the thought that taking care of her would

> be easier because she would be in her own house but right there, no more

> endless trips to do it. It was the time, the convenience that tempted me,

> but the more I think about it the more I see how the time and inconvenience

> of those trips would be overrun with other things. The distance is still a

> good reason to not be able to get to her when she claims we must, and I

> prefer this to that.

>

> Thank you all for your contributions, it gave me so much to think about

> while weighing my decision. If anyone has more ideas on how to break the

> news to nada, I'm all ears! lol

>

>

>

> > >

> > > Hi again to everyone. This is going to be a very long post. I ask

> everyone to bear with me because I need all of the help and advice I can get

> on this one, and only this group can really help me.

> > >

> > > As I mentioned in my introduction a couple of wks ago, my step father

> died back in July, leaving nada entirely alone (for the first time in her

> life) with a 32 acre mess due to their 20+ yrs of hoarding. Hubby and I live

> 2 1/2 hrs away from nada, and this past year, taking care of her has

> literally sucked our lives away. Every Saturday though the end of November

> was spent taking care of nada and her farm mess with only myself and my

> husband to do the work.

> > >

> > > Being the oldest of 2 kids and the only one left now to take care of

> nada leaves me in something of a bind legally, or soon will, when it comes

> to her care. I have always known that day would eventually come, still not

> sure how I will handle it.

> > >

> > > Nada is a real estate broker and understands she desperately needs to

> move as soon as possible, but it seems to be taking forever to get the place

> ready, for obvious reasons. I know I can't live the next few years like

> this, nada sucking up every free moment because she's destitute and living

> in a place that is literally falling apart around her, while expecting me

> and hubby to get there every time she needs/wants us. Last night during my

> nightly " nada sitting chat " online we were discussing again about finding

> her a new house as soon as possible, so she began looking through the MLS

> listings yet again. She sent me 1 listing, and now wants me and hubby to

> make a life altering decision. This is what I need help with.

> > >

> > > What nada has proposed is a property, not necessarily this one but

> another similar to it, near where she lives now (which is over an hour

> closer for hubby to work and back every day) that has acreage, 10+ acres...

> with 2 houses... one for us and one for nada. She wants us to be " neighbors "

> on the same property. She spent 2 hrs pointing out all of the positive

> aspects of doing such a thing, which, to an average person would make a

> whole world of sense. If not for the BPD situation I would probably already

> be packing... lol

> > >

> > > Nada and I discussed some rules, she agreed it would all be drawn up by

> a lawyer, giving hubby and myself all legal rights to " our " house up front,

> and the entire property would be given to us in her will. I was adamant that

> I would not even consider such a thing if she left one of the houses to my

> sister. I have no relationship with my sister, she may also suffer with the

> BPD, not sure... but she is an extremely cruel and unpleasant person to be

> around, so I simply have a NC relationship with her that has worked for both

> of us for 20+ yrs. Nada agreed happily, and said she would do it immediately

> as part of our legal arrangement when the property was purchased.

> > >

> > > Nada is thinking of paying for this entire new property so hubby and I

> can eliminate our house payment, and she has discussed splitting taxes with

> us in a way that would work for all. The financial end of this would be a

> huge help and plus for me and hubby and would allow us to better help our

> kids as they need it from time to time. This arrangement also includes

> allowing me use of the land and outbuildings for my own fish wholesale

> business, something I have been doing small scale for yrs now due to lack of

> space and finances to expand in any way. (in this business the only way to

> make decent money is large scale wholesale) Nada agreed that this would also

> be written into the legal documents to avoid any conflicts that may arise

> through the rest of her life with us as neighbors.

> > >

> > > There were many plus's to considering this arrangement, so I discussed

> it with hubby this morning. He also wishes to hear the opinions of the group

> before we discuss it again.

> > >

> > > Taking care of nada now that she is getting old is something I will

> have to do regardless of where I live. This arrangement would make that much

> easier and less time consuming... however, as you all know already, it isn't

> just that simple. I can imagine some of you are cringing just at the thought

> of such a thing.

> > >

> > > I know talk is cheap, legal documents or not. The day to day stress of

> living next door is what I am concerned about. In our current situation 2

> 1/2 hrs away she made a comment one night at about 1am " I'm hungry, I wish

> you lived closer because you could make me something to eat and bring it

> over " . At that moment I was forever grateful to be living so far away and

> vowed to never live closer to her again. Hubby and I talked then about her

> demanding and controlling ways and what it would be like to live near her.

> The thought of it still makes me feel ill sometimes.

> > >

> > > I know that doing something like this will keep her front and center in

> our lives for the rest of hers... but I guess my question is, how much worse

> could it be than having to travel so far (with me not able to drive anymore)

> to take care of her for the rest of her life? Either way she will be sucking

> my life away... which makes more sense? The property, upon her death, would

> leave me and hubby set for life, no question about that. Am I talking about

> selling my soul without realizing it?

> > >

> > > Nada knows we can't move for at least the next 3 yrs... that is the

> other part of this thing I need help with. The place she is in now is

> killing me and hubby with trying to take care of her and it. Its falling

> apart around her and so full of antiques mixed with junk, cat piss, and

> filth that it makes me ill just thinking about it. I am concerned that in

> nada's big new adventure she is going to drag her feet on the current house,

> holding out for the next 3 yrs when we're able to move, to set up the above

> mentioned situation. I know neither hubby nor I can survive another 3 yrs of

> the way things are now. That is without question. Its just too much for the

> 2 of us. Our own house is now starting to fall apart around us because we

> are never home enough to take care of it anymore, we're too busy with the

> never ending work at nada's farm. That is what has sucked our lives away and

> what has caused me such excessive stress... and ultimately, what eventually

> led me here to this group. I was desperate enough only a few weeks ago to

> ask the help of an online friend who is a shrink... as I feared for my own

> sanity.

> > >

> > > So, the big question... what would you do? How would you all approach

> such a situation? If asked honestly, yes, I am considering this because of

> some of the good points. Hubby agrees with me there... but that OVERWHELMING

> FEAR of having her front and center in our faces 24/7 with her demands and

> insults... is looming near. I have always expected that when she reaches a

> point of needing more care than I can give, a live in caregiver is the only

> option that makes any sense. Her insurance is enough that it shouldn't be

> too difficult, but unless it is medically needed, the expense would all be

> on me, and the way things are right now, I simply could not afford that.

> This situation would help resolve that, I don't mind the extra house

> cleaning if she's not standing over me giving me instructions each time. I

> can help with her cooking by doing it at home and running it over to her

> house once/day or every other day... and there would be times I wouldn't

> mind " short " visits with her in our home. But how to set livable boundaries

> for something like this? I can never again put myself out there where she

> KNOWS I am at her mercy... never ever again. Be it financially or

> emotionally.. I can't do that again.

> > > How would you do it? I keep thinking there has to be a way to make this

> work, just the how that evades me.

> > >

> > > Hubby sends his thanks in advance, as do I, for any contributions to

> this post. I knew the day would come that I'd have to make the hard choices

> (as if life hasn't been hard enough already) but I didn't expect it quite

> this soon. I am so grateful I have this group now to help me with these

> decisions... and to support me no matter how I choose to proceed. The

> understanding and caring in this group is unmatched anywhere I have ever

> been before in my life.

> > >

> > > I look forward to all of your replies!

> > >

> >

>

>

>

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Posted
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Glad that you found your answer, but why do you feel that you owe her an

explanation, beyond " sorry, we just can't help " .

It's your life. Don't let her trigger the FOG with you.

> > >

> > > Hi again to everyone. This is going to be a very long post. I ask

everyone to bear with me because I need all of the help and advice I can get on

this one, and only this group can really help me.

> > >

> > > As I mentioned in my introduction a couple of wks ago, my step father died

back in July, leaving nada entirely alone (for the first time in her life) with

a 32 acre mess due to their 20+ yrs of hoarding. Hubby and I live 2 1/2 hrs

away from nada, and this past year, taking care of her has literally sucked our

lives away. Every Saturday though the end of November was spent taking care of

nada and her farm mess with only myself and my husband to do the work.

> > >

> > > Being the oldest of 2 kids and the only one left now to take care of nada

leaves me in something of a bind legally, or soon will, when it comes to her

care. I have always known that day would eventually come, still not sure how I

will handle it.

> > >

> > > Nada is a real estate broker and understands she desperately needs to move

as soon as possible, but it seems to be taking forever to get the place ready,

for obvious reasons. I know I can't live the next few years like this, nada

sucking up every free moment because she's destitute and living in a place that

is literally falling apart around her, while expecting me and hubby to get there

every time she needs/wants us. Last night during my nightly " nada sitting chat "

online we were discussing again about finding her a new house as soon as

possible, so she began looking through the MLS listings yet again. She sent me

1 listing, and now wants me and hubby to make a life altering decision. This is

what I need help with.

> > >

> > > What nada has proposed is a property, not necessarily this one but another

similar to it, near where she lives now (which is over an hour closer for hubby

to work and back every day) that has acreage, 10+ acres... with 2 houses... one

for us and one for nada. She wants us to be " neighbors " on the same property.

She spent 2 hrs pointing out all of the positive aspects of doing such a thing,

which, to an average person would make a whole world of sense. If not for the

BPD situation I would probably already be packing... lol

> > >

> > > Nada and I discussed some rules, she agreed it would all be drawn up by a

lawyer, giving hubby and myself all legal rights to " our " house up front, and

the entire property would be given to us in her will. I was adamant that I

would not even consider such a thing if she left one of the houses to my sister.

I have no relationship with my sister, she may also suffer with the BPD, not

sure... but she is an extremely cruel and unpleasant person to be around, so I

simply have a NC relationship with her that has worked for both of us for 20+

yrs. Nada agreed happily, and said she would do it immediately as part of our

legal arrangement when the property was purchased.

> > >

> > > Nada is thinking of paying for this entire new property so hubby and I can

eliminate our house payment, and she has discussed splitting taxes with us in a

way that would work for all. The financial end of this would be a huge help and

plus for me and hubby and would allow us to better help our kids as they need it

from time to time. This arrangement also includes allowing me use of the land

and outbuildings for my own fish wholesale business, something I have been doing

small scale for yrs now due to lack of space and finances to expand in any way.

(in this business the only way to make decent money is large scale wholesale)

Nada agreed that this would also be written into the legal documents to avoid

any conflicts that may arise through the rest of her life with us as neighbors.

> > >

> > > There were many plus's to considering this arrangement, so I discussed it

with hubby this morning. He also wishes to hear the opinions of the group

before we discuss it again.

> > >

> > > Taking care of nada now that she is getting old is something I will have

to do regardless of where I live. This arrangement would make that much easier

and less time consuming... however, as you all know already, it isn't just that

simple. I can imagine some of you are cringing just at the thought of such a

thing.

> > >

> > > I know talk is cheap, legal documents or not. The day to day stress of

living next door is what I am concerned about. In our current situation 2 1/2

hrs away she made a comment one night at about 1am " I'm hungry, I wish you lived

closer because you could make me something to eat and bring it over " . At that

moment I was forever grateful to be living so far away and vowed to never live

closer to her again. Hubby and I talked then about her demanding and

controlling ways and what it would be like to live near her. The thought of it

still makes me feel ill sometimes.

> > >

> > > I know that doing something like this will keep her front and center in

our lives for the rest of hers... but I guess my question is, how much worse

could it be than having to travel so far (with me not able to drive anymore) to

take care of her for the rest of her life? Either way she will be sucking my

life away... which makes more sense? The property, upon her death, would leave

me and hubby set for life, no question about that. Am I talking about selling

my soul without realizing it?

> > >

> > > Nada knows we can't move for at least the next 3 yrs... that is the other

part of this thing I need help with. The place she is in now is killing me and

hubby with trying to take care of her and it. Its falling apart around her and

so full of antiques mixed with junk, cat piss, and filth that it makes me ill

just thinking about it. I am concerned that in nada's big new adventure she is

going to drag her feet on the current house, holding out for the next 3 yrs when

we're able to move, to set up the above mentioned situation. I know neither

hubby nor I can survive another 3 yrs of the way things are now. That is

without question. Its just too much for the 2 of us. Our own house is now

starting to fall apart around us because we are never home enough to take care

of it anymore, we're too busy with the never ending work at nada's farm. That

is what has sucked our lives away and what has caused me such excessive

stress... and ultimately, what eventually led me here to this group. I was

desperate enough only a few weeks ago to ask the help of an online friend who is

a shrink... as I feared for my own sanity.

> > >

> > > So, the big question... what would you do? How would you all approach

such a situation? If asked honestly, yes, I am considering this because of

some of the good points. Hubby agrees with me there... but that OVERWHELMING

FEAR of having her front and center in our faces 24/7 with her demands and

insults... is looming near. I have always expected that when she reaches a

point of needing more care than I can give, a live in caregiver is the only

option that makes any sense. Her insurance is enough that it shouldn't be too

difficult, but unless it is medically needed, the expense would all be on me,

and the way things are right now, I simply could not afford that. This

situation would help resolve that, I don't mind the extra house cleaning if

she's not standing over me giving me instructions each time. I can help with

her cooking by doing it at home and running it over to her house once/day or

every other day... and there would be times I wouldn't mind " short " visits with

her in our home. But how to set livable boundaries for something like this? I

can never again put myself out there where she KNOWS I am at her mercy... never

ever again. Be it financially or emotionally.. I can't do that again.

> > > How would you do it? I keep thinking there has to be a way to make this

work, just the how that evades me.

> > >

> > > Hubby sends his thanks in advance, as do I, for any contributions to this

post. I knew the day would come that I'd have to make the hard choices (as if

life hasn't been hard enough already) but I didn't expect it quite this soon. I

am so grateful I have this group now to help me with these decisions... and to

support me no matter how I choose to proceed. The understanding and caring in

this group is unmatched anywhere I have ever been before in my life.

> > >

> > > I look forward to all of your replies!

> > >

> >

>

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Posted
Posted

Glad that you found your answer, but why do you feel that you owe her an

explanation, beyond " sorry, we just can't help " .

It's your life. Don't let her trigger the FOG with you.

> > >

> > > Hi again to everyone. This is going to be a very long post. I ask

everyone to bear with me because I need all of the help and advice I can get on

this one, and only this group can really help me.

> > >

> > > As I mentioned in my introduction a couple of wks ago, my step father died

back in July, leaving nada entirely alone (for the first time in her life) with

a 32 acre mess due to their 20+ yrs of hoarding. Hubby and I live 2 1/2 hrs

away from nada, and this past year, taking care of her has literally sucked our

lives away. Every Saturday though the end of November was spent taking care of

nada and her farm mess with only myself and my husband to do the work.

> > >

> > > Being the oldest of 2 kids and the only one left now to take care of nada

leaves me in something of a bind legally, or soon will, when it comes to her

care. I have always known that day would eventually come, still not sure how I

will handle it.

> > >

> > > Nada is a real estate broker and understands she desperately needs to move

as soon as possible, but it seems to be taking forever to get the place ready,

for obvious reasons. I know I can't live the next few years like this, nada

sucking up every free moment because she's destitute and living in a place that

is literally falling apart around her, while expecting me and hubby to get there

every time she needs/wants us. Last night during my nightly " nada sitting chat "

online we were discussing again about finding her a new house as soon as

possible, so she began looking through the MLS listings yet again. She sent me

1 listing, and now wants me and hubby to make a life altering decision. This is

what I need help with.

> > >

> > > What nada has proposed is a property, not necessarily this one but another

similar to it, near where she lives now (which is over an hour closer for hubby

to work and back every day) that has acreage, 10+ acres... with 2 houses... one

for us and one for nada. She wants us to be " neighbors " on the same property.

She spent 2 hrs pointing out all of the positive aspects of doing such a thing,

which, to an average person would make a whole world of sense. If not for the

BPD situation I would probably already be packing... lol

> > >

> > > Nada and I discussed some rules, she agreed it would all be drawn up by a

lawyer, giving hubby and myself all legal rights to " our " house up front, and

the entire property would be given to us in her will. I was adamant that I

would not even consider such a thing if she left one of the houses to my sister.

I have no relationship with my sister, she may also suffer with the BPD, not

sure... but she is an extremely cruel and unpleasant person to be around, so I

simply have a NC relationship with her that has worked for both of us for 20+

yrs. Nada agreed happily, and said she would do it immediately as part of our

legal arrangement when the property was purchased.

> > >

> > > Nada is thinking of paying for this entire new property so hubby and I can

eliminate our house payment, and she has discussed splitting taxes with us in a

way that would work for all. The financial end of this would be a huge help and

plus for me and hubby and would allow us to better help our kids as they need it

from time to time. This arrangement also includes allowing me use of the land

and outbuildings for my own fish wholesale business, something I have been doing

small scale for yrs now due to lack of space and finances to expand in any way.

(in this business the only way to make decent money is large scale wholesale)

Nada agreed that this would also be written into the legal documents to avoid

any conflicts that may arise through the rest of her life with us as neighbors.

> > >

> > > There were many plus's to considering this arrangement, so I discussed it

with hubby this morning. He also wishes to hear the opinions of the group

before we discuss it again.

> > >

> > > Taking care of nada now that she is getting old is something I will have

to do regardless of where I live. This arrangement would make that much easier

and less time consuming... however, as you all know already, it isn't just that

simple. I can imagine some of you are cringing just at the thought of such a

thing.

> > >

> > > I know talk is cheap, legal documents or not. The day to day stress of

living next door is what I am concerned about. In our current situation 2 1/2

hrs away she made a comment one night at about 1am " I'm hungry, I wish you lived

closer because you could make me something to eat and bring it over " . At that

moment I was forever grateful to be living so far away and vowed to never live

closer to her again. Hubby and I talked then about her demanding and

controlling ways and what it would be like to live near her. The thought of it

still makes me feel ill sometimes.

> > >

> > > I know that doing something like this will keep her front and center in

our lives for the rest of hers... but I guess my question is, how much worse

could it be than having to travel so far (with me not able to drive anymore) to

take care of her for the rest of her life? Either way she will be sucking my

life away... which makes more sense? The property, upon her death, would leave

me and hubby set for life, no question about that. Am I talking about selling

my soul without realizing it?

> > >

> > > Nada knows we can't move for at least the next 3 yrs... that is the other

part of this thing I need help with. The place she is in now is killing me and

hubby with trying to take care of her and it. Its falling apart around her and

so full of antiques mixed with junk, cat piss, and filth that it makes me ill

just thinking about it. I am concerned that in nada's big new adventure she is

going to drag her feet on the current house, holding out for the next 3 yrs when

we're able to move, to set up the above mentioned situation. I know neither

hubby nor I can survive another 3 yrs of the way things are now. That is

without question. Its just too much for the 2 of us. Our own house is now

starting to fall apart around us because we are never home enough to take care

of it anymore, we're too busy with the never ending work at nada's farm. That

is what has sucked our lives away and what has caused me such excessive

stress... and ultimately, what eventually led me here to this group. I was

desperate enough only a few weeks ago to ask the help of an online friend who is

a shrink... as I feared for my own sanity.

> > >

> > > So, the big question... what would you do? How would you all approach

such a situation? If asked honestly, yes, I am considering this because of

some of the good points. Hubby agrees with me there... but that OVERWHELMING

FEAR of having her front and center in our faces 24/7 with her demands and

insults... is looming near. I have always expected that when she reaches a

point of needing more care than I can give, a live in caregiver is the only

option that makes any sense. Her insurance is enough that it shouldn't be too

difficult, but unless it is medically needed, the expense would all be on me,

and the way things are right now, I simply could not afford that. This

situation would help resolve that, I don't mind the extra house cleaning if

she's not standing over me giving me instructions each time. I can help with

her cooking by doing it at home and running it over to her house once/day or

every other day... and there would be times I wouldn't mind " short " visits with

her in our home. But how to set livable boundaries for something like this? I

can never again put myself out there where she KNOWS I am at her mercy... never

ever again. Be it financially or emotionally.. I can't do that again.

> > > How would you do it? I keep thinking there has to be a way to make this

work, just the how that evades me.

> > >

> > > Hubby sends his thanks in advance, as do I, for any contributions to this

post. I knew the day would come that I'd have to make the hard choices (as if

life hasn't been hard enough already) but I didn't expect it quite this soon. I

am so grateful I have this group now to help me with these decisions... and to

support me no matter how I choose to proceed. The understanding and caring in

this group is unmatched anywhere I have ever been before in my life.

> > >

> > > I look forward to all of your replies!

> > >

> >

>

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Posted
Posted

Glad that you found your answer, but why do you feel that you owe her an

explanation, beyond " sorry, we just can't help " .

It's your life. Don't let her trigger the FOG with you.

> > >

> > > Hi again to everyone. This is going to be a very long post. I ask

everyone to bear with me because I need all of the help and advice I can get on

this one, and only this group can really help me.

> > >

> > > As I mentioned in my introduction a couple of wks ago, my step father died

back in July, leaving nada entirely alone (for the first time in her life) with

a 32 acre mess due to their 20+ yrs of hoarding. Hubby and I live 2 1/2 hrs

away from nada, and this past year, taking care of her has literally sucked our

lives away. Every Saturday though the end of November was spent taking care of

nada and her farm mess with only myself and my husband to do the work.

> > >

> > > Being the oldest of 2 kids and the only one left now to take care of nada

leaves me in something of a bind legally, or soon will, when it comes to her

care. I have always known that day would eventually come, still not sure how I

will handle it.

> > >

> > > Nada is a real estate broker and understands she desperately needs to move

as soon as possible, but it seems to be taking forever to get the place ready,

for obvious reasons. I know I can't live the next few years like this, nada

sucking up every free moment because she's destitute and living in a place that

is literally falling apart around her, while expecting me and hubby to get there

every time she needs/wants us. Last night during my nightly " nada sitting chat "

online we were discussing again about finding her a new house as soon as

possible, so she began looking through the MLS listings yet again. She sent me

1 listing, and now wants me and hubby to make a life altering decision. This is

what I need help with.

> > >

> > > What nada has proposed is a property, not necessarily this one but another

similar to it, near where she lives now (which is over an hour closer for hubby

to work and back every day) that has acreage, 10+ acres... with 2 houses... one

for us and one for nada. She wants us to be " neighbors " on the same property.

She spent 2 hrs pointing out all of the positive aspects of doing such a thing,

which, to an average person would make a whole world of sense. If not for the

BPD situation I would probably already be packing... lol

> > >

> > > Nada and I discussed some rules, she agreed it would all be drawn up by a

lawyer, giving hubby and myself all legal rights to " our " house up front, and

the entire property would be given to us in her will. I was adamant that I

would not even consider such a thing if she left one of the houses to my sister.

I have no relationship with my sister, she may also suffer with the BPD, not

sure... but she is an extremely cruel and unpleasant person to be around, so I

simply have a NC relationship with her that has worked for both of us for 20+

yrs. Nada agreed happily, and said she would do it immediately as part of our

legal arrangement when the property was purchased.

> > >

> > > Nada is thinking of paying for this entire new property so hubby and I can

eliminate our house payment, and she has discussed splitting taxes with us in a

way that would work for all. The financial end of this would be a huge help and

plus for me and hubby and would allow us to better help our kids as they need it

from time to time. This arrangement also includes allowing me use of the land

and outbuildings for my own fish wholesale business, something I have been doing

small scale for yrs now due to lack of space and finances to expand in any way.

(in this business the only way to make decent money is large scale wholesale)

Nada agreed that this would also be written into the legal documents to avoid

any conflicts that may arise through the rest of her life with us as neighbors.

> > >

> > > There were many plus's to considering this arrangement, so I discussed it

with hubby this morning. He also wishes to hear the opinions of the group

before we discuss it again.

> > >

> > > Taking care of nada now that she is getting old is something I will have

to do regardless of where I live. This arrangement would make that much easier

and less time consuming... however, as you all know already, it isn't just that

simple. I can imagine some of you are cringing just at the thought of such a

thing.

> > >

> > > I know talk is cheap, legal documents or not. The day to day stress of

living next door is what I am concerned about. In our current situation 2 1/2

hrs away she made a comment one night at about 1am " I'm hungry, I wish you lived

closer because you could make me something to eat and bring it over " . At that

moment I was forever grateful to be living so far away and vowed to never live

closer to her again. Hubby and I talked then about her demanding and

controlling ways and what it would be like to live near her. The thought of it

still makes me feel ill sometimes.

> > >

> > > I know that doing something like this will keep her front and center in

our lives for the rest of hers... but I guess my question is, how much worse

could it be than having to travel so far (with me not able to drive anymore) to

take care of her for the rest of her life? Either way she will be sucking my

life away... which makes more sense? The property, upon her death, would leave

me and hubby set for life, no question about that. Am I talking about selling

my soul without realizing it?

> > >

> > > Nada knows we can't move for at least the next 3 yrs... that is the other

part of this thing I need help with. The place she is in now is killing me and

hubby with trying to take care of her and it. Its falling apart around her and

so full of antiques mixed with junk, cat piss, and filth that it makes me ill

just thinking about it. I am concerned that in nada's big new adventure she is

going to drag her feet on the current house, holding out for the next 3 yrs when

we're able to move, to set up the above mentioned situation. I know neither

hubby nor I can survive another 3 yrs of the way things are now. That is

without question. Its just too much for the 2 of us. Our own house is now

starting to fall apart around us because we are never home enough to take care

of it anymore, we're too busy with the never ending work at nada's farm. That

is what has sucked our lives away and what has caused me such excessive

stress... and ultimately, what eventually led me here to this group. I was

desperate enough only a few weeks ago to ask the help of an online friend who is

a shrink... as I feared for my own sanity.

> > >

> > > So, the big question... what would you do? How would you all approach

such a situation? If asked honestly, yes, I am considering this because of

some of the good points. Hubby agrees with me there... but that OVERWHELMING

FEAR of having her front and center in our faces 24/7 with her demands and

insults... is looming near. I have always expected that when she reaches a

point of needing more care than I can give, a live in caregiver is the only

option that makes any sense. Her insurance is enough that it shouldn't be too

difficult, but unless it is medically needed, the expense would all be on me,

and the way things are right now, I simply could not afford that. This

situation would help resolve that, I don't mind the extra house cleaning if

she's not standing over me giving me instructions each time. I can help with

her cooking by doing it at home and running it over to her house once/day or

every other day... and there would be times I wouldn't mind " short " visits with

her in our home. But how to set livable boundaries for something like this? I

can never again put myself out there where she KNOWS I am at her mercy... never

ever again. Be it financially or emotionally.. I can't do that again.

> > > How would you do it? I keep thinking there has to be a way to make this

work, just the how that evades me.

> > >

> > > Hubby sends his thanks in advance, as do I, for any contributions to this

post. I knew the day would come that I'd have to make the hard choices (as if

life hasn't been hard enough already) but I didn't expect it quite this soon. I

am so grateful I have this group now to help me with these decisions... and to

support me no matter how I choose to proceed. The understanding and caring in

this group is unmatched anywhere I have ever been before in my life.

> > >

> > > I look forward to all of your replies!

> > >

> >

>

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>

> When hubby and I devote our 12 hr days on Saturdays to working at nada's farm,

we are not allowed to go into the house. If we need to use the bathroom, hubby

just waters a tree out in the wooded area behind the barn, I either hold it or

go through the issues of having to beg and listen to her complaints about how

badly I upset her dog by using her bathroom.

So, WHY do you continue to do it?

> Nada is getting older, there is a limit to some of what she can do now, but by

no means is she an invalid or in need of in home care of any kind. There is no

way for her to care for a 32 acre farm alone

Then she can be responsible for selling it. WHY are you making it your job to

rescue her? You must be getting something out of it in order to continue.

>Her barn smells like ammonia because of the amount of urine everywhere, and a

good portion of her farm smells the same way... Most of the cats are sick,

upper respiratory illness, eye infections, etc.

It sounds to me like a call to animal services is in order!

>I am trying my damned best to clean up the huge mess on her farm so >she can

sell it.

Again, let her be responsible for hiring professionals to help her, and let them

take care of this. It's her mess, she's an adult, and you are not responsible

for cleaning it up.

> I very much appreciate all of the suggestions that were made here, but once

again, things are just not that simple for me. If there were any family left

other than me to look after her, help her, take care of her, etc. believe me, I

would gladly step back, but it is only me and hubby... I just want an end to

the endless amount of work she seems to have for us to do, I want to see a light

at the end of the tunnel, however I can make that happen without abandoning her.

I want time to spend with my husband, I seldom even see him anymore because when

he's not at work or sleeping during the week, we are busy with our daughter's

school activities, shopping, and nada the rest of the time. I want to cook a

meal without my ear glued to a phone, I want to sleep without nada acting as my

alarm clock because she thinks I should be awake at that time.

Wow. Can you go back and read this paragraph you wrote again? I hear you

saying you have limits, and that you continue to allow your nada to push right

over them. This is your choice. You have the power to TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF

first. I understand it can be very difficult to let go of the guilt of

" abandoning " a hermit, but the truth is, you're not helping her at all--you're

enabling her, and all that work you think you're doing " for " her is actually not

doing anything but hurting both of you.

What steps can you take to take care of yourself and your marriage? What would

it be like to tell your mother you are not able to continue working for her, and

that she will need to hire someone to help her if she wants to continue living

there?

There is an excellent workshop that Randi Kreger did on personal limits and how

to evaluate the pros and cons of setting them on another site. If you are

willing to take a few minutes to look at it, it might be very helpful for you:

http://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=93309.0

I know none of this is easy for you. Your nada is not going to change, and

there will never be an end to the work she has for you unless YOU CHOOSE to stop

doing it. Your feelings matter, and it's up to you to protect your own life.

I wish you the best as you sort through all the choices ahead of you.

KT

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