Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/15/2004 12:04:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,

lavhome@... writes:

OK this is a long shot opinion here, but I'm going to throw it out anyway.

You do wonder, why is it acceptable for anyone to graduate with a 4th grade

reading level in our society today.

___________________-

This makes me wonder what the reading level of the average adult really is.

Most newspapers are written at about a 5th grade reading level. The " serious "

ones like the NY Times are written at a 9th grade level. I doubt that the

average adult reads at a 12th grade level and most of our population has

graduated

high school if not some form of high ed.. Does this make it right? No, but

I'd guess that the facts would show that most adults' reading levels are in the

below the 9th-grade bar set by the NYTimes.

Jill

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/15/2004 12:04:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,

lavhome@... writes:

OK this is a long shot opinion here, but I'm going to throw it out anyway.

You do wonder, why is it acceptable for anyone to graduate with a 4th grade

reading level in our society today.

___________________-

This makes me wonder what the reading level of the average adult really is.

Most newspapers are written at about a 5th grade reading level. The " serious "

ones like the NY Times are written at a 9th grade level. I doubt that the

average adult reads at a 12th grade level and most of our population has

graduated

high school if not some form of high ed.. Does this make it right? No, but

I'd guess that the facts would show that most adults' reading levels are in the

below the 9th-grade bar set by the NYTimes.

Jill

[Guest guest]

I know they have all these learning centers with tutors that work on phonics and

stuff, I am wondering when children get older why wouldn't the school pay for

this type of phonics work? I know they may fight us on it, but if children who

use ASL have trouble reading and well in my opinion rightfully so. I was just

wondering why if the school systems are aware that these children who are

usually around seniors in High school have a 3 or 4 grade level why aren't they

working on this? I mean why don't they have reading therapy or something?

Reading is a huge part of communication for Deaf who use soley ASL that in many

ways is the only way they can communicate with hearing people. Anyway I was

just wondering if maybe a phonics class might be a good idea early on as soon as

he starts reading.

reading levels of deaf and HOH

Hi Tish, look at the following website for this info

http://gri.gallaudet.edu/Literacy/#reading This gives the info about the 4th

grade reading level (and this is the beginning of 4th grade not the end!) for 17

or 18 year old kids. There is a wealth of data at this GRI (gallaudet research

institute) site. They also do an annual survey of all deaf/HOH kids in schools

and also do less frequent acheivement testing. This is why so many advocates

say that it is not good to use testing normed on deaf children - because it

sells them short and gives low expectations. A good place to read up on that

issue is the www.handsandvoices.org site - they are a parent group in CO that is

pushing for deaf ed reform and higher expectations. Hope this is helpful.

in GA

All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each post is

the intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to copyright

restrictions.

[Guest guest]

I know they have all these learning centers with tutors that work on phonics and

stuff, I am wondering when children get older why wouldn't the school pay for

this type of phonics work? I know they may fight us on it, but if children who

use ASL have trouble reading and well in my opinion rightfully so. I was just

wondering why if the school systems are aware that these children who are

usually around seniors in High school have a 3 or 4 grade level why aren't they

working on this? I mean why don't they have reading therapy or something?

Reading is a huge part of communication for Deaf who use soley ASL that in many

ways is the only way they can communicate with hearing people. Anyway I was

just wondering if maybe a phonics class might be a good idea early on as soon as

he starts reading.

reading levels of deaf and HOH

Hi Tish, look at the following website for this info

http://gri.gallaudet.edu/Literacy/#reading This gives the info about the 4th

grade reading level (and this is the beginning of 4th grade not the end!) for 17

or 18 year old kids. There is a wealth of data at this GRI (gallaudet research

institute) site. They also do an annual survey of all deaf/HOH kids in schools

and also do less frequent acheivement testing. This is why so many advocates

say that it is not good to use testing normed on deaf children - because it

sells them short and gives low expectations. A good place to read up on that

issue is the www.handsandvoices.org site - they are a parent group in CO that is

pushing for deaf ed reform and higher expectations. Hope this is helpful.

in GA

All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each post is

the intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to copyright

restrictions.

[Guest guest]

I know they have all these learning centers with tutors that work on phonics and

stuff, I am wondering when children get older why wouldn't the school pay for

this type of phonics work? I know they may fight us on it, but if children who

use ASL have trouble reading and well in my opinion rightfully so. I was just

wondering why if the school systems are aware that these children who are

usually around seniors in High school have a 3 or 4 grade level why aren't they

working on this? I mean why don't they have reading therapy or something?

Reading is a huge part of communication for Deaf who use soley ASL that in many

ways is the only way they can communicate with hearing people. Anyway I was

just wondering if maybe a phonics class might be a good idea early on as soon as

he starts reading.

reading levels of deaf and HOH

Hi Tish, look at the following website for this info

http://gri.gallaudet.edu/Literacy/#reading This gives the info about the 4th

grade reading level (and this is the beginning of 4th grade not the end!) for 17

or 18 year old kids. There is a wealth of data at this GRI (gallaudet research

institute) site. They also do an annual survey of all deaf/HOH kids in schools

and also do less frequent acheivement testing. This is why so many advocates

say that it is not good to use testing normed on deaf children - because it

sells them short and gives low expectations. A good place to read up on that

issue is the www.handsandvoices.org site - they are a parent group in CO that is

pushing for deaf ed reform and higher expectations. Hope this is helpful.

in GA

All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each post is

the intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to copyright

restrictions.

[Guest guest]

OK this is a long shot opinion here, but I'm going to throw it out anyway.

You do wonder, why is it acceptable for anyone to graduate with a 4th grade

reading level in our society today. We have programs for everything. Help

for food. Help for social awkwardness. Help for dysfunctional families.

That help doesn't only include enough food to feed only a fraction of their

bodies. Help for social awkwardness doesn't stop at the lower elementary

grade level. Help for dysfunctional families doesn't only provide enough

help for a tiny part of the family.

Here I go......

The deaf have fought for years to keep their residential schools. Some

(some!) of the older deaf have said for years, " Well, it was good enough for

us.... " The deaf accept a deaf/signed church service once a month and feel

happy to have that. And we as a society pat ourselves on the back for

" helping them out " by providing that deaf service once a month. The older

deaf have felt if they graduated with a 4th grade reading level and are

doing fine in society, well then it must be good enough for the next

generation. My daughters in all their innocence have had to stand and take

being told by an older deaf adult that they " hate " their implant as they are

looking at my girls in disgust. The ability to hear doesn't make a person.

Their upbringing and soul makes that person.

Are the deaf doing it to themselves and it is affecting our children???

How can a hearing society fight for the rights of the deaf, if the majority

of the voting deaf will settle for less? Is this a political issue at

heart? And if so, what can we do about it? Please keep in mind I am not

posting to offend anyone. I am not criticizing the deaf. If I do that,

then I criticize my own children. I am only wondering if the strength of

the Deaf Culture (only a small part of the deaf culture, keep in mind) is

holding our newly implanted (or unimplanted) children unintentionally at

the same low level they were being held at, and as a society, we don't know

there is any different way.

Tish

PS Please don't attack me as I am very simple-minded at heart.

> I know they have all these learning centers with tutors that work on

phonics and stuff, I am wondering when children get older why wouldn't the

school pay for this type of phonics work? I know they may fight us on it,

but if children who use ASL have trouble reading and well in my opinion

rightfully so. I was just wondering why if the school systems are aware

that these children who are usually around seniors in High school have a 3

or 4 grade level why aren't they working on this? I mean why don't they

have reading therapy or something? Reading is a huge part of communication

for Deaf who use soley ASL that in many ways is the only way they can

communicate with hearing people. Anyway I was just wondering if maybe a

phonics class might be a good idea early on as soon as he starts reading.

>

> reading levels of deaf and HOH

>

>

> Hi Tish, look at the following website for this info

http://gri.gallaudet.edu/Literacy/#reading This gives the info about the

4th grade reading level (and this is the beginning of 4th grade not the

end!) for 17 or 18 year old kids. There is a wealth of data at this GRI

(gallaudet research institute) site. They also do an annual survey of all

deaf/HOH kids in schools and also do less frequent acheivement testing.

This is why so many advocates say that it is not good to use testing normed

on deaf children - because it sells them short and gives low expectations.

A good place to read up on that issue is the www.handsandvoices.org site -

they are a parent group in CO that is pushing for deaf ed reform and higher

expectations. Hope this is helpful. in GA

>

>

>

>

> All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each

post is the intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to

copyright restrictions.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

OK this is a long shot opinion here, but I'm going to throw it out anyway.

You do wonder, why is it acceptable for anyone to graduate with a 4th grade

reading level in our society today. We have programs for everything. Help

for food. Help for social awkwardness. Help for dysfunctional families.

That help doesn't only include enough food to feed only a fraction of their

bodies. Help for social awkwardness doesn't stop at the lower elementary

grade level. Help for dysfunctional families doesn't only provide enough

help for a tiny part of the family.

Here I go......

The deaf have fought for years to keep their residential schools. Some

(some!) of the older deaf have said for years, " Well, it was good enough for

us.... " The deaf accept a deaf/signed church service once a month and feel

happy to have that. And we as a society pat ourselves on the back for

" helping them out " by providing that deaf service once a month. The older

deaf have felt if they graduated with a 4th grade reading level and are

doing fine in society, well then it must be good enough for the next

generation. My daughters in all their innocence have had to stand and take

being told by an older deaf adult that they " hate " their implant as they are

looking at my girls in disgust. The ability to hear doesn't make a person.

Their upbringing and soul makes that person.

Are the deaf doing it to themselves and it is affecting our children???

How can a hearing society fight for the rights of the deaf, if the majority

of the voting deaf will settle for less? Is this a political issue at

heart? And if so, what can we do about it? Please keep in mind I am not

posting to offend anyone. I am not criticizing the deaf. If I do that,

then I criticize my own children. I am only wondering if the strength of

the Deaf Culture (only a small part of the deaf culture, keep in mind) is

holding our newly implanted (or unimplanted) children unintentionally at

the same low level they were being held at, and as a society, we don't know

there is any different way.

Tish

PS Please don't attack me as I am very simple-minded at heart.

> I know they have all these learning centers with tutors that work on

phonics and stuff, I am wondering when children get older why wouldn't the

school pay for this type of phonics work? I know they may fight us on it,

but if children who use ASL have trouble reading and well in my opinion

rightfully so. I was just wondering why if the school systems are aware

that these children who are usually around seniors in High school have a 3

or 4 grade level why aren't they working on this? I mean why don't they

have reading therapy or something? Reading is a huge part of communication

for Deaf who use soley ASL that in many ways is the only way they can

communicate with hearing people. Anyway I was just wondering if maybe a

phonics class might be a good idea early on as soon as he starts reading.

>

> reading levels of deaf and HOH

>

>

> Hi Tish, look at the following website for this info

http://gri.gallaudet.edu/Literacy/#reading This gives the info about the

4th grade reading level (and this is the beginning of 4th grade not the

end!) for 17 or 18 year old kids. There is a wealth of data at this GRI

(gallaudet research institute) site. They also do an annual survey of all

deaf/HOH kids in schools and also do less frequent acheivement testing.

This is why so many advocates say that it is not good to use testing normed

on deaf children - because it sells them short and gives low expectations.

A good place to read up on that issue is the www.handsandvoices.org site -

they are a parent group in CO that is pushing for deaf ed reform and higher

expectations. Hope this is helpful. in GA

>

>

>

>

> All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each

post is the intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to

copyright restrictions.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Trish,

I undrestand your reply and I think to an extend that is true, there are so many

Deaf out there who insist they are fine, and they really are, but that doesn't

mean that we shouldn't do more to help our children succeed. The laws have

changed since many Deaf adults were in school, they often went to deaf schools

because that was the only place they could get help, it was a deaf school or a

mainstream class, there was no in between for them. They learned to love who

they are and how they live. That's fine for them, but I know that a huge part

of my son's life is going to be reading and writing so how can we sit back and

say it's ok for him to graduate with a 3rd or 4th grade level? In my opinion

that isn't ok. I don't even know if it is the law that is the problem because I

think the law insists that they make necessary adjustments in their learning

cirriculum to help his special needs, and that would include reading help. I

think much of the problem is many people are unaware that the trouble reading is

related with being d/hoh. I think what we need to do is be more aware of it and

bring it up to the schools at the appropriate time that he is behind in reading

and needs some extra therapy in that area or totor or something that will aid

him in his reading development. I think this is a bigger problem with those ASL

users than with english sign users, but probably is an issue with HA users and

CI users who are mainly speakers. Anyway I am thinking it might be more of a

local school problem but am not sure, I would love to hear from those who have

been there or are there with their d/hoh child. I think the laws are in place

it's a matter of opening up the eyes of the professionals handling the education

to the problem of reading with d/hoh kids. I think awareness of this problem in

deed can be due to the contentment of the Deaf population being happy with what

they have and what they got as an education, but we need to step out and change

that. I had done a lot of research on hearing loss in children and never came

accross issues with reading until I put two and two together and realized just

how different ASL is from english and how can they be expected to understand and

read english as second nature when it really is not. I for one and going to

make sure they focus on my son's reading skills when the time is right and maybe

even get him a tutor, because I know that is going to be a huge thing in his

learning. How can he be expected to get good grades in school if he can't read

well? Anyway this is somewhat upsetting to me but something I think I can do

something about. I think we all need to be more aware of what a problem reading

can be with ASL users.

Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

[Guest guest]

Trish,

I undrestand your reply and I think to an extend that is true, there are so many

Deaf out there who insist they are fine, and they really are, but that doesn't

mean that we shouldn't do more to help our children succeed. The laws have

changed since many Deaf adults were in school, they often went to deaf schools

because that was the only place they could get help, it was a deaf school or a

mainstream class, there was no in between for them. They learned to love who

they are and how they live. That's fine for them, but I know that a huge part

of my son's life is going to be reading and writing so how can we sit back and

say it's ok for him to graduate with a 3rd or 4th grade level? In my opinion

that isn't ok. I don't even know if it is the law that is the problem because I

think the law insists that they make necessary adjustments in their learning

cirriculum to help his special needs, and that would include reading help. I

think much of the problem is many people are unaware that the trouble reading is

related with being d/hoh. I think what we need to do is be more aware of it and

bring it up to the schools at the appropriate time that he is behind in reading

and needs some extra therapy in that area or totor or something that will aid

him in his reading development. I think this is a bigger problem with those ASL

users than with english sign users, but probably is an issue with HA users and

CI users who are mainly speakers. Anyway I am thinking it might be more of a

local school problem but am not sure, I would love to hear from those who have

been there or are there with their d/hoh child. I think the laws are in place

it's a matter of opening up the eyes of the professionals handling the education

to the problem of reading with d/hoh kids. I think awareness of this problem in

deed can be due to the contentment of the Deaf population being happy with what

they have and what they got as an education, but we need to step out and change

that. I had done a lot of research on hearing loss in children and never came

accross issues with reading until I put two and two together and realized just

how different ASL is from english and how can they be expected to understand and

read english as second nature when it really is not. I for one and going to

make sure they focus on my son's reading skills when the time is right and maybe

even get him a tutor, because I know that is going to be a huge thing in his

learning. How can he be expected to get good grades in school if he can't read

well? Anyway this is somewhat upsetting to me but something I think I can do

something about. I think we all need to be more aware of what a problem reading

can be with ASL users.

Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

[Guest guest]

Trish,

I undrestand your reply and I think to an extend that is true, there are so many

Deaf out there who insist they are fine, and they really are, but that doesn't

mean that we shouldn't do more to help our children succeed. The laws have

changed since many Deaf adults were in school, they often went to deaf schools

because that was the only place they could get help, it was a deaf school or a

mainstream class, there was no in between for them. They learned to love who

they are and how they live. That's fine for them, but I know that a huge part

of my son's life is going to be reading and writing so how can we sit back and

say it's ok for him to graduate with a 3rd or 4th grade level? In my opinion

that isn't ok. I don't even know if it is the law that is the problem because I

think the law insists that they make necessary adjustments in their learning

cirriculum to help his special needs, and that would include reading help. I

think much of the problem is many people are unaware that the trouble reading is

related with being d/hoh. I think what we need to do is be more aware of it and

bring it up to the schools at the appropriate time that he is behind in reading

and needs some extra therapy in that area or totor or something that will aid

him in his reading development. I think this is a bigger problem with those ASL

users than with english sign users, but probably is an issue with HA users and

CI users who are mainly speakers. Anyway I am thinking it might be more of a

local school problem but am not sure, I would love to hear from those who have

been there or are there with their d/hoh child. I think the laws are in place

it's a matter of opening up the eyes of the professionals handling the education

to the problem of reading with d/hoh kids. I think awareness of this problem in

deed can be due to the contentment of the Deaf population being happy with what

they have and what they got as an education, but we need to step out and change

that. I had done a lot of research on hearing loss in children and never came

accross issues with reading until I put two and two together and realized just

how different ASL is from english and how can they be expected to understand and

read english as second nature when it really is not. I for one and going to

make sure they focus on my son's reading skills when the time is right and maybe

even get him a tutor, because I know that is going to be a huge thing in his

learning. How can he be expected to get good grades in school if he can't read

well? Anyway this is somewhat upsetting to me but something I think I can do

something about. I think we all need to be more aware of what a problem reading

can be with ASL users.

Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

[Guest guest]

The problem isn't just with ASL users, though. My girls do not know

ASL...they do pidgeon english, or signed english. When they read they do

signing exact english. One of my daughters can do 9th grade math, but can't

read at hardly a 3rd grade level. It isn't her mental ability, it's the

reading comprehension. I'm not sure if it matters if it's ASL, Signed

English, Pidgeon English, or Signing Exact English. It's the approach

that's used to get language to them. Does that make it a language issue

instead of a communication issue? In my way of thinking, the people who are

being educated to educate our deaf children should be able to figure this

out.

tish

Trish,

> I undrestand your reply and I think to an extend that is true, there are

so many Deaf out there who insist they are fine, and they really are, but

that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do more to help our children succeed.

The laws have changed since many Deaf adults were in school, they often went

to deaf schools because that was the only place they could get help, it was

a deaf school or a mainstream class, there was no in between for them. They

learned to love who they are and how they live. That's fine for them, but I

know that a huge part of my son's life is going to be reading and writing so

how can we sit back and say it's ok for him to graduate with a 3rd or 4th

grade level? In my opinion that isn't ok. I don't even know if it is the

law that is the problem because I think the law insists that they make

necessary adjustments in their learning cirriculum to help his special

needs, and that would include reading help. I think much of the problem is

many people are unaware that the trouble reading is related with being

d/hoh. I think what we need to do is be more aware of it and bring it up to

the schools at the appropriate time that he is behind in reading and needs

some extra therapy in that area or totor or something that will aid him in

his reading development. I think this is a bigger problem with those ASL

users than with english sign users, but probably is an issue with HA users

and CI users who are mainly speakers. Anyway I am thinking it might be more

of a local school problem but am not sure, I would love to hear from those

who have been there or are there with their d/hoh child. I think the laws

are in place it's a matter of opening up the eyes of the professionals

handling the education to the problem of reading with d/hoh kids. I think

awareness of this problem in deed can be due to the contentment of the Deaf

population being happy with what they have and what they got as an

education, but we need to step out and change that. I had done a lot of

research on hearing loss in children and never came accross issues with

reading until I put two and two together and realized just how different ASL

is from english and how can they be expected to understand and read english

as second nature when it really is not. I for one and going to make sure

they focus on my son's reading skills when the time is right and maybe even

get him a tutor, because I know that is going to be a huge thing in his

learning. How can he be expected to get good grades in school if he can't

read well? Anyway this is somewhat upsetting to me but something I think I

can do something about. I think we all need to be more aware of what a

problem reading can be with ASL users.

>

> Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The problem isn't just with ASL users, though. My girls do not know

ASL...they do pidgeon english, or signed english. When they read they do

signing exact english. One of my daughters can do 9th grade math, but can't

read at hardly a 3rd grade level. It isn't her mental ability, it's the

reading comprehension. I'm not sure if it matters if it's ASL, Signed

English, Pidgeon English, or Signing Exact English. It's the approach

that's used to get language to them. Does that make it a language issue

instead of a communication issue? In my way of thinking, the people who are

being educated to educate our deaf children should be able to figure this

out.

tish

Trish,

> I undrestand your reply and I think to an extend that is true, there are

so many Deaf out there who insist they are fine, and they really are, but

that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do more to help our children succeed.

The laws have changed since many Deaf adults were in school, they often went

to deaf schools because that was the only place they could get help, it was

a deaf school or a mainstream class, there was no in between for them. They

learned to love who they are and how they live. That's fine for them, but I

know that a huge part of my son's life is going to be reading and writing so

how can we sit back and say it's ok for him to graduate with a 3rd or 4th

grade level? In my opinion that isn't ok. I don't even know if it is the

law that is the problem because I think the law insists that they make

necessary adjustments in their learning cirriculum to help his special

needs, and that would include reading help. I think much of the problem is

many people are unaware that the trouble reading is related with being

d/hoh. I think what we need to do is be more aware of it and bring it up to

the schools at the appropriate time that he is behind in reading and needs

some extra therapy in that area or totor or something that will aid him in

his reading development. I think this is a bigger problem with those ASL

users than with english sign users, but probably is an issue with HA users

and CI users who are mainly speakers. Anyway I am thinking it might be more

of a local school problem but am not sure, I would love to hear from those

who have been there or are there with their d/hoh child. I think the laws

are in place it's a matter of opening up the eyes of the professionals

handling the education to the problem of reading with d/hoh kids. I think

awareness of this problem in deed can be due to the contentment of the Deaf

population being happy with what they have and what they got as an

education, but we need to step out and change that. I had done a lot of

research on hearing loss in children and never came accross issues with

reading until I put two and two together and realized just how different ASL

is from english and how can they be expected to understand and read english

as second nature when it really is not. I for one and going to make sure

they focus on my son's reading skills when the time is right and maybe even

get him a tutor, because I know that is going to be a huge thing in his

learning. How can he be expected to get good grades in school if he can't

read well? Anyway this is somewhat upsetting to me but something I think I

can do something about. I think we all need to be more aware of what a

problem reading can be with ASL users.

>

> Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The problem isn't just with ASL users, though. My girls do not know

ASL...they do pidgeon english, or signed english. When they read they do

signing exact english. One of my daughters can do 9th grade math, but can't

read at hardly a 3rd grade level. It isn't her mental ability, it's the

reading comprehension. I'm not sure if it matters if it's ASL, Signed

English, Pidgeon English, or Signing Exact English. It's the approach

that's used to get language to them. Does that make it a language issue

instead of a communication issue? In my way of thinking, the people who are

being educated to educate our deaf children should be able to figure this

out.

tish

Trish,

> I undrestand your reply and I think to an extend that is true, there are

so many Deaf out there who insist they are fine, and they really are, but

that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do more to help our children succeed.

The laws have changed since many Deaf adults were in school, they often went

to deaf schools because that was the only place they could get help, it was

a deaf school or a mainstream class, there was no in between for them. They

learned to love who they are and how they live. That's fine for them, but I

know that a huge part of my son's life is going to be reading and writing so

how can we sit back and say it's ok for him to graduate with a 3rd or 4th

grade level? In my opinion that isn't ok. I don't even know if it is the

law that is the problem because I think the law insists that they make

necessary adjustments in their learning cirriculum to help his special

needs, and that would include reading help. I think much of the problem is

many people are unaware that the trouble reading is related with being

d/hoh. I think what we need to do is be more aware of it and bring it up to

the schools at the appropriate time that he is behind in reading and needs

some extra therapy in that area or totor or something that will aid him in

his reading development. I think this is a bigger problem with those ASL

users than with english sign users, but probably is an issue with HA users

and CI users who are mainly speakers. Anyway I am thinking it might be more

of a local school problem but am not sure, I would love to hear from those

who have been there or are there with their d/hoh child. I think the laws

are in place it's a matter of opening up the eyes of the professionals

handling the education to the problem of reading with d/hoh kids. I think

awareness of this problem in deed can be due to the contentment of the Deaf

population being happy with what they have and what they got as an

education, but we need to step out and change that. I had done a lot of

research on hearing loss in children and never came accross issues with

reading until I put two and two together and realized just how different ASL

is from english and how can they be expected to understand and read english

as second nature when it really is not. I for one and going to make sure

they focus on my son's reading skills when the time is right and maybe even

get him a tutor, because I know that is going to be a huge thing in his

learning. How can he be expected to get good grades in school if he can't

read well? Anyway this is somewhat upsetting to me but something I think I

can do something about. I think we all need to be more aware of what a

problem reading can be with ASL users.

>

> Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

That does make sense, it would be more of a language issue. Most children

communicate perfectly well but when it comes to reading it's tough. It

absolutely is not an intellegance thing either, which is why in addition to

getting speech therapy (or whatever the individual child gets) they should work

on reading.

Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

That does make sense, it would be more of a language issue. Most children

communicate perfectly well but when it comes to reading it's tough. It

absolutely is not an intellegance thing either, which is why in addition to

getting speech therapy (or whatever the individual child gets) they should work

on reading.

Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It is a phonics issue. When you use sign...any kind...you are visually

representing a concept/word, not sounding out the word. Therefore, the

child has to learn to sight read each word. It is documented in hearing

children that sight word reading breaks down about third or fourth grade.

That is why the average level stops there for the deaf/hoh...because they

don't have the phonetic ability to get past that stage. That is why, in

general, deaf/hoh who use cued speech have near normal/normal reading

levels. It's because they use a visual phonics system that teaches a child

phonetic structure, whether they can say the word out loud or not. Many

users of ASL have developed their own modified system of cued speech using

ASL letters to substitute for the sounds. Their kids tend to read normally.

The problem is that it is not a formalized system used across the board by

all providers, such as teachers, therapists, etc.

I'm so sad that so many parents still haven't taken the time to go to a cued

speech seminar/camp and truly learn the power of such a system. My son went

from being unable to lipread to incredible lipreading abilities within one

year of learning to cue receptively at age 7. He already was reading before

he was two so we didn't have a reading issue, but it worked a miracle in his

ability to lipread. He had zero percent recognition when he started.

The best advice I can give to every parent is to check out every modality

available through a hands-on trial and research, research, research

Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

It is a phonics issue. When you use sign...any kind...you are visually

representing a concept/word, not sounding out the word. Therefore, the

child has to learn to sight read each word. It is documented in hearing

children that sight word reading breaks down about third or fourth grade.

That is why the average level stops there for the deaf/hoh...because they

don't have the phonetic ability to get past that stage. That is why, in

general, deaf/hoh who use cued speech have near normal/normal reading

levels. It's because they use a visual phonics system that teaches a child

phonetic structure, whether they can say the word out loud or not. Many

users of ASL have developed their own modified system of cued speech using

ASL letters to substitute for the sounds. Their kids tend to read normally.

The problem is that it is not a formalized system used across the board by

all providers, such as teachers, therapists, etc.

I'm so sad that so many parents still haven't taken the time to go to a cued

speech seminar/camp and truly learn the power of such a system. My son went

from being unable to lipread to incredible lipreading abilities within one

year of learning to cue receptively at age 7. He already was reading before

he was two so we didn't have a reading issue, but it worked a miracle in his

ability to lipread. He had zero percent recognition when he started.

The best advice I can give to every parent is to check out every modality

available through a hands-on trial and research, research, research

Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

It is a phonics issue. When you use sign...any kind...you are visually

representing a concept/word, not sounding out the word. Therefore, the

child has to learn to sight read each word. It is documented in hearing

children that sight word reading breaks down about third or fourth grade.

That is why the average level stops there for the deaf/hoh...because they

don't have the phonetic ability to get past that stage. That is why, in

general, deaf/hoh who use cued speech have near normal/normal reading

levels. It's because they use a visual phonics system that teaches a child

phonetic structure, whether they can say the word out loud or not. Many

users of ASL have developed their own modified system of cued speech using

ASL letters to substitute for the sounds. Their kids tend to read normally.

The problem is that it is not a formalized system used across the board by

all providers, such as teachers, therapists, etc.

I'm so sad that so many parents still haven't taken the time to go to a cued

speech seminar/camp and truly learn the power of such a system. My son went

from being unable to lipread to incredible lipreading abilities within one

year of learning to cue receptively at age 7. He already was reading before

he was two so we didn't have a reading issue, but it worked a miracle in his

ability to lipread. He had zero percent recognition when he started.

The best advice I can give to every parent is to check out every modality

available through a hands-on trial and research, research, research

Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

At 01:08 PM 3/15/04, you wrote:

>This makes me wonder what the reading level of the average adult really is.

>Most newspapers are written at about a 5th grade reading level.

I was looking for the data this morning, and I couldn't find the reference. I'm

pretty sure the typical high school grad can read at a 5th grade level.

I did find a bunch of studies on reading proficiency (U.S. govt site).

Apparently only 1/3 of high school seniors read at a proficient or advanced

level. Everyone else is below that.

Barbara Handley

http://www.deafhomeschool.com

[Guest guest]

At 01:08 PM 3/15/04, you wrote:

>This makes me wonder what the reading level of the average adult really is.

>Most newspapers are written at about a 5th grade reading level.

I was looking for the data this morning, and I couldn't find the reference. I'm

pretty sure the typical high school grad can read at a 5th grade level.

I did find a bunch of studies on reading proficiency (U.S. govt site).

Apparently only 1/3 of high school seniors read at a proficient or advanced

level. Everyone else is below that.

Barbara Handley

http://www.deafhomeschool.com

[Guest guest]

At 01:08 PM 3/15/04, you wrote:

>This makes me wonder what the reading level of the average adult really is.

>Most newspapers are written at about a 5th grade reading level.

I was looking for the data this morning, and I couldn't find the reference. I'm

pretty sure the typical high school grad can read at a 5th grade level.

I did find a bunch of studies on reading proficiency (U.S. govt site).

Apparently only 1/3 of high school seniors read at a proficient or advanced

level. Everyone else is below that.

Barbara Handley

http://www.deafhomeschool.com

[Guest guest]

>> " I'm so sad that so many parents still haven't taken the time to go to a

>>cued

speech seminar/camp and truly learn the power of such a system. "

-

I get uneasy when topics turn to advocating for specific methodologies and

communication modes, but to tell you the truth, the reason I never looked

into cued speech is because NO ONE in my area uses it. I am not aware of any

locations anywere near me that teach cued speech. There are no current

professionals in the schools here that know cued speech. Why use a

communication system when there are no others around that use it as well?

I am curious about a few things regarding cued speech. My very basic

understanding is that it is some facial and hand movements, coordinated with

speech, that offer additional clues to what the words may be. How does this

translate to an actual situation for the HI person when the person they are

communicating with does not use cued speech? Is a translator still needed?

I'm not going to take a position on this because honestly, I don't know

enough about it

Colin

_________________________________________________________________

Find things fast with the new MSN Toolbar – includes FREE pop-up blocking!

http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

>> " I'm so sad that so many parents still haven't taken the time to go to a

>>cued

speech seminar/camp and truly learn the power of such a system. "

-

I get uneasy when topics turn to advocating for specific methodologies and

communication modes, but to tell you the truth, the reason I never looked

into cued speech is because NO ONE in my area uses it. I am not aware of any

locations anywere near me that teach cued speech. There are no current

professionals in the schools here that know cued speech. Why use a

communication system when there are no others around that use it as well?

I am curious about a few things regarding cued speech. My very basic

understanding is that it is some facial and hand movements, coordinated with

speech, that offer additional clues to what the words may be. How does this

translate to an actual situation for the HI person when the person they are

communicating with does not use cued speech? Is a translator still needed?

I'm not going to take a position on this because honestly, I don't know

enough about it

Colin

_________________________________________________________________

Find things fast with the new MSN Toolbar – includes FREE pop-up blocking!

http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

I too was uneasy about whether to post my comments or not, but decided to do

so because I'm not saying that people should use this methodology, but that

they should do themselves the favor and investigate it and make an informed

decision after that. If anyone is truly interested, there are cued speech

camps nationally and internationally that are loads of fun and teach the

system Most are a week or less which is all it takes to learn it.

With cued speech, the other person needs to be able to cue in order for the

system to work, just as with ASL, there needs to be sign to be understood.

ASL is a visual representation of a word/concept. Cued speech is a visual

representation of a phoneme of speech (a sound of speech) For example, if I

sign the word tree, I rest my elbow on my other palm, hold my hand in the

air and shake it to symbolize the word tree. It tells me nothing about the

sound of the word, but I know that it means tree...now, what about oak tree,

maple tree...as far as I know, there's no sign for those, so you finger

spell...o-a-k, m-a-p-l-e. Again, nothing tells you how these are

phonetically pronounced. Now, with cued speech, to cue the word tree, I say

the word and as I'm saying it, I cue the sounds of the word...tuh...reee.

Maple tree becomes...may....puh...ul..... tuh...ree. Oak tree is oh...kuh

tuh..ree What happens is that the person uses the mouth movement and

correlates it with the cue to visually " hear " the sounds. All cueing is is a

stringing of the sounds of speech that one hears together. That's why even

accents can be cued...for example, take the word Boston. Now, there is

probably a sign for Boston...let's assume there is. You know the word is

Boston that you're talking about. Now, for cueing, there is no one cue for

Boston...I, for example, say Bawstun. That would be cued

Baw...s...t....uhn. Now, another person says, Bahstin. That would be cued,

Bah..s...t....in So, you see, the person actually " hears " the difference in

accents, just as we do, yet knows the word is Boston, just like we do. That

is why learning to read is easier. You are actually, learning visual

phonics so you can teach phonetic reading.

Just like signing, a child would need a cued speech transliterator

(interpretor) if the person talking to them doesn't know how to cue and/or

sign language interpreter if they use sign as well. They are not mutally

exclusive. However, to me, the significant piece is the speed at which a

family can communicate their entire conversation to their child without

having to learn a " foreign " language such as ASL. In one week, they can

slowly cue anything, and within a year, cue at a slow conversational speed.

After that, it's just the amount of practice that determines speed. Because

the family can cue every word, the child develops a vocabulary that is not

limited by the amount of sign that a parent/sibling knows. They also will

learn every word in the english language that is used and its context. To

me, the literacy and the ability to acquire more language from the family

are two benefits that result whether the rest of the world cues or not. It

also helped my son tremendously with lipreading and using his residual

hearing because he learned to visually understand what his ears were

hearing. When he heard an ah sound and we cued AH...it reinforced that this

was an ah sound...etc.

Another tool that I personally wish more people would investigate is the

Fast Forward program which is used to remediate central auditory processing

disorder. It is an incredible program that compresses years of speech

therapy into a 6-10 week intensive computer based remediation. I believe in

it so much that i bought stock in the company and have held it through the

tech stock crash. Some CI facilities use it for post implant auditory

training and I don't understand why they all don't. It's expensive, so

maybe that's why.

Hope this info helps.

Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

> >> " I'm so sad that so many parents still haven't taken the time to go to a

> >>cued

> speech seminar/camp and truly learn the power of such a system. "

>

> -

> I get uneasy when topics turn to advocating for specific methodologies and

> communication modes, but to tell you the truth, the reason I never looked

> into cued speech is because NO ONE in my area uses it. I am not aware of

any

> locations anywere near me that teach cued speech. There are no current

> professionals in the schools here that know cued speech. Why use a

> communication system when there are no others around that use it as well?

>

> I am curious about a few things regarding cued speech. My very basic

> understanding is that it is some facial and hand movements, coordinated

with

> speech, that offer additional clues to what the words may be. How does

this

> translate to an actual situation for the HI person when the person they

are

> communicating with does not use cued speech? Is a translator still needed?

> I'm not going to take a position on this because honestly, I don't know

> enough about it

> Colin

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Find things fast with the new MSN Toolbar ¡¦includes FREE pop-up

blocking!

> http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/

>

>

>

> All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each post

is the intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to

copyright restrictions.

>

[Guest guest]

I too was uneasy about whether to post my comments or not, but decided to do

so because I'm not saying that people should use this methodology, but that

they should do themselves the favor and investigate it and make an informed

decision after that. If anyone is truly interested, there are cued speech

camps nationally and internationally that are loads of fun and teach the

system Most are a week or less which is all it takes to learn it.

With cued speech, the other person needs to be able to cue in order for the

system to work, just as with ASL, there needs to be sign to be understood.

ASL is a visual representation of a word/concept. Cued speech is a visual

representation of a phoneme of speech (a sound of speech) For example, if I

sign the word tree, I rest my elbow on my other palm, hold my hand in the

air and shake it to symbolize the word tree. It tells me nothing about the

sound of the word, but I know that it means tree...now, what about oak tree,

maple tree...as far as I know, there's no sign for those, so you finger

spell...o-a-k, m-a-p-l-e. Again, nothing tells you how these are

phonetically pronounced. Now, with cued speech, to cue the word tree, I say

the word and as I'm saying it, I cue the sounds of the word...tuh...reee.

Maple tree becomes...may....puh...ul..... tuh...ree. Oak tree is oh...kuh

tuh..ree What happens is that the person uses the mouth movement and

correlates it with the cue to visually " hear " the sounds. All cueing is is a

stringing of the sounds of speech that one hears together. That's why even

accents can be cued...for example, take the word Boston. Now, there is

probably a sign for Boston...let's assume there is. You know the word is

Boston that you're talking about. Now, for cueing, there is no one cue for

Boston...I, for example, say Bawstun. That would be cued

Baw...s...t....uhn. Now, another person says, Bahstin. That would be cued,

Bah..s...t....in So, you see, the person actually " hears " the difference in

accents, just as we do, yet knows the word is Boston, just like we do. That

is why learning to read is easier. You are actually, learning visual

phonics so you can teach phonetic reading.

Just like signing, a child would need a cued speech transliterator

(interpretor) if the person talking to them doesn't know how to cue and/or

sign language interpreter if they use sign as well. They are not mutally

exclusive. However, to me, the significant piece is the speed at which a

family can communicate their entire conversation to their child without

having to learn a " foreign " language such as ASL. In one week, they can

slowly cue anything, and within a year, cue at a slow conversational speed.

After that, it's just the amount of practice that determines speed. Because

the family can cue every word, the child develops a vocabulary that is not

limited by the amount of sign that a parent/sibling knows. They also will

learn every word in the english language that is used and its context. To

me, the literacy and the ability to acquire more language from the family

are two benefits that result whether the rest of the world cues or not. It

also helped my son tremendously with lipreading and using his residual

hearing because he learned to visually understand what his ears were

hearing. When he heard an ah sound and we cued AH...it reinforced that this

was an ah sound...etc.

Another tool that I personally wish more people would investigate is the

Fast Forward program which is used to remediate central auditory processing

disorder. It is an incredible program that compresses years of speech

therapy into a 6-10 week intensive computer based remediation. I believe in

it so much that i bought stock in the company and have held it through the

tech stock crash. Some CI facilities use it for post implant auditory

training and I don't understand why they all don't. It's expensive, so

maybe that's why.

Hope this info helps.

Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

> >> " I'm so sad that so many parents still haven't taken the time to go to a

> >>cued

> speech seminar/camp and truly learn the power of such a system. "

>

> -

> I get uneasy when topics turn to advocating for specific methodologies and

> communication modes, but to tell you the truth, the reason I never looked

> into cued speech is because NO ONE in my area uses it. I am not aware of

any

> locations anywere near me that teach cued speech. There are no current

> professionals in the schools here that know cued speech. Why use a

> communication system when there are no others around that use it as well?

>

> I am curious about a few things regarding cued speech. My very basic

> understanding is that it is some facial and hand movements, coordinated

with

> speech, that offer additional clues to what the words may be. How does

this

> translate to an actual situation for the HI person when the person they

are

> communicating with does not use cued speech? Is a translator still needed?

> I'm not going to take a position on this because honestly, I don't know

> enough about it

> Colin

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Find things fast with the new MSN Toolbar ¡¦includes FREE pop-up

blocking!

> http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/

>

>

>

> All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each post

is the intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to

copyright restrictions.

>