Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

[Guest guest]

Jill,

I think that parental involvement helps, for one I have a phonics issue myself I

spell things the way they sound not always the way they are supposed to be

spelled. I have a lot of trouble reading as well staying focused on things that

are long and not very interesting is really really hard for me. I really think

this is a problem and I know it affected my grades in school but instead of

gettin me help or a tutor or something my parents punished me for getting not so

good grades and insisted I could do better. They never helped me with my work

and they never noticed the fact that I was struggling. I didn't realize until

later in life seeing my husband read great that I really do have a problem and

they should have looked into it. I thought I was just stupid. I have mentioned

numerous times that spelling has nothing to do with intellagence but she doesn't

believe me and she knows I have a spelling problem so she obviously thinks I am

just stupid. It is a phonics issue not an intellegence issue. I am bitter for

them not realizing the problem I had and instead repremanding me for having a

hard time, in their minds I wasn't trying hard enough. I did at some point give

up, because I did believe I was stupid. I consider myself very functional in

society but I would love to have had a better education and I really feel it was

hindered by my lack of reading comprehension. I do feel it was my parents fault

to an extent for not getting me help.

On the other hand I got low scores on all reading comprehension things when it

was a math problem in the form of a word problem, I would do very poorly and I

think it is lame that while the school picked up on this they never mentioned to

my family that I might need some extra help. No they just assumed I was a bad

student. I don't think that is right at all. Why are they letting students go

who are obviously struggling? Especially students who they know have special

needs? It is hard to live like this but I do fairly well, however I wish it was

easier for me, and I still revert back to feeling stupid from time to time. I

wanted to become a doctor out of high school, but I felt I would never be able

to do that because I wasn't smart enough. I did really well in biology, but

still I felt stupid. Now I know I could do it, now that I am aware of the

problem and can work on it.

Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

Interesting points, interesting post!.

My husband and I were discussing a variation on #1 before this thread began.

Since I'm teachng myself to sign and in turn teaching my family, I've found

that there are several (probably many) signs that work for several English

words. While those words all share the same general concept, there are nuanced

differences in the meanings. Other things like " see you later " would be

correctly

signed as " meet you later " obviously can cause confusion when reading. If an

AL fluent child reads that someone says " see you later " the general content

will be understood. You obviously have to meet up with someone to be able to

see

them, but the colloquial use of " see " is not being correctly understood. I was

pointing this out to my hubby when we were talking about ASL as a choice for

Ian if he needs sign to help with college. LIke I said, we're in the midst of

deciding what to try.

Number 3 is one that I found personally frustrating. When my son was in 5th

grade his

Spec Ed teacher would send notes filed with spelling errors. Words like

schedule -- (spelled schedual) a word that I would think anyone with an

education

degree should know how to spell. But I will admit that she was the only one of

her kind. Once Ian was in the middle school the Spec Ed people were far better

spoken and literate.

And number 4 is, I think, something that is chronic throughout our culture,

not just applying to D/HH or other kids with special needs. I don't thinking

our general popluation is nearly as well educated as we think they are. I

doubt

that the average reading level of Americans reaches a 9th grade level. (I've

decided to search and find if there are state on the average reading level of

the general public.) In my opinion, this is not the fault of our schools and

teachers, becuase the education is there for the taking. IMHO, it is more

linked

to parental expectations and support of the education available.

Over the years I can't tell you how many parents have made comments to my

husband about how much of what is learned in school is not important, and what

was good enough for them should be good enough. If parents don't value the

education, neither will their kids. Do we need to know the word " facetious " in

order to survive in our society? Nope, but it makes for a pretty good

alternative

to " sarcastic. " Plus it is one of only a few words in the english language

which contain all the vowels in alphabetical order. Pretty cool, and of

absolutely no value except that it is fun to know and a fun word to use.

Best -- Jill

_________________________________________________________________

<<3. Insufficient language in support staff

I think this is a huge issue. Interpreters and teachers whose

language skills are lower than those of the child they are working with are

not

helping (ditto speech and language therapists). I can speak and read French

with

moderate fluency, but I would never dream of teaching it to someone else, let

alone trying to interpret.

4. Culture of low expectations

This is a problem specific to the school system. After all, if

*most* deaf kids read at a third grade level, that's a reasonable goal.>>

[Guest guest]

Jill,

I think that parental involvement helps, for one I have a phonics issue myself I

spell things the way they sound not always the way they are supposed to be

spelled. I have a lot of trouble reading as well staying focused on things that

are long and not very interesting is really really hard for me. I really think

this is a problem and I know it affected my grades in school but instead of

gettin me help or a tutor or something my parents punished me for getting not so

good grades and insisted I could do better. They never helped me with my work

and they never noticed the fact that I was struggling. I didn't realize until

later in life seeing my husband read great that I really do have a problem and

they should have looked into it. I thought I was just stupid. I have mentioned

numerous times that spelling has nothing to do with intellagence but she doesn't

believe me and she knows I have a spelling problem so she obviously thinks I am

just stupid. It is a phonics issue not an intellegence issue. I am bitter for

them not realizing the problem I had and instead repremanding me for having a

hard time, in their minds I wasn't trying hard enough. I did at some point give

up, because I did believe I was stupid. I consider myself very functional in

society but I would love to have had a better education and I really feel it was

hindered by my lack of reading comprehension. I do feel it was my parents fault

to an extent for not getting me help.

On the other hand I got low scores on all reading comprehension things when it

was a math problem in the form of a word problem, I would do very poorly and I

think it is lame that while the school picked up on this they never mentioned to

my family that I might need some extra help. No they just assumed I was a bad

student. I don't think that is right at all. Why are they letting students go

who are obviously struggling? Especially students who they know have special

needs? It is hard to live like this but I do fairly well, however I wish it was

easier for me, and I still revert back to feeling stupid from time to time. I

wanted to become a doctor out of high school, but I felt I would never be able

to do that because I wasn't smart enough. I did really well in biology, but

still I felt stupid. Now I know I could do it, now that I am aware of the

problem and can work on it.

Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

Interesting points, interesting post!.

My husband and I were discussing a variation on #1 before this thread began.

Since I'm teachng myself to sign and in turn teaching my family, I've found

that there are several (probably many) signs that work for several English

words. While those words all share the same general concept, there are nuanced

differences in the meanings. Other things like " see you later " would be

correctly

signed as " meet you later " obviously can cause confusion when reading. If an

AL fluent child reads that someone says " see you later " the general content

will be understood. You obviously have to meet up with someone to be able to

see

them, but the colloquial use of " see " is not being correctly understood. I was

pointing this out to my hubby when we were talking about ASL as a choice for

Ian if he needs sign to help with college. LIke I said, we're in the midst of

deciding what to try.

Number 3 is one that I found personally frustrating. When my son was in 5th

grade his

Spec Ed teacher would send notes filed with spelling errors. Words like

schedule -- (spelled schedual) a word that I would think anyone with an

education

degree should know how to spell. But I will admit that she was the only one of

her kind. Once Ian was in the middle school the Spec Ed people were far better

spoken and literate.

And number 4 is, I think, something that is chronic throughout our culture,

not just applying to D/HH or other kids with special needs. I don't thinking

our general popluation is nearly as well educated as we think they are. I

doubt

that the average reading level of Americans reaches a 9th grade level. (I've

decided to search and find if there are state on the average reading level of

the general public.) In my opinion, this is not the fault of our schools and

teachers, becuase the education is there for the taking. IMHO, it is more

linked

to parental expectations and support of the education available.

Over the years I can't tell you how many parents have made comments to my

husband about how much of what is learned in school is not important, and what

was good enough for them should be good enough. If parents don't value the

education, neither will their kids. Do we need to know the word " facetious " in

order to survive in our society? Nope, but it makes for a pretty good

alternative

to " sarcastic. " Plus it is one of only a few words in the english language

which contain all the vowels in alphabetical order. Pretty cool, and of

absolutely no value except that it is fun to know and a fun word to use.

Best -- Jill

_________________________________________________________________

<<3. Insufficient language in support staff

I think this is a huge issue. Interpreters and teachers whose

language skills are lower than those of the child they are working with are

not

helping (ditto speech and language therapists). I can speak and read French

with

moderate fluency, but I would never dream of teaching it to someone else, let

alone trying to interpret.

4. Culture of low expectations

This is a problem specific to the school system. After all, if

*most* deaf kids read at a third grade level, that's a reasonable goal.>>

[Guest guest]

Jill,

I think that parental involvement helps, for one I have a phonics issue myself I

spell things the way they sound not always the way they are supposed to be

spelled. I have a lot of trouble reading as well staying focused on things that

are long and not very interesting is really really hard for me. I really think

this is a problem and I know it affected my grades in school but instead of

gettin me help or a tutor or something my parents punished me for getting not so

good grades and insisted I could do better. They never helped me with my work

and they never noticed the fact that I was struggling. I didn't realize until

later in life seeing my husband read great that I really do have a problem and

they should have looked into it. I thought I was just stupid. I have mentioned

numerous times that spelling has nothing to do with intellagence but she doesn't

believe me and she knows I have a spelling problem so she obviously thinks I am

just stupid. It is a phonics issue not an intellegence issue. I am bitter for

them not realizing the problem I had and instead repremanding me for having a

hard time, in their minds I wasn't trying hard enough. I did at some point give

up, because I did believe I was stupid. I consider myself very functional in

society but I would love to have had a better education and I really feel it was

hindered by my lack of reading comprehension. I do feel it was my parents fault

to an extent for not getting me help.

On the other hand I got low scores on all reading comprehension things when it

was a math problem in the form of a word problem, I would do very poorly and I

think it is lame that while the school picked up on this they never mentioned to

my family that I might need some extra help. No they just assumed I was a bad

student. I don't think that is right at all. Why are they letting students go

who are obviously struggling? Especially students who they know have special

needs? It is hard to live like this but I do fairly well, however I wish it was

easier for me, and I still revert back to feeling stupid from time to time. I

wanted to become a doctor out of high school, but I felt I would never be able

to do that because I wasn't smart enough. I did really well in biology, but

still I felt stupid. Now I know I could do it, now that I am aware of the

problem and can work on it.

Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

Interesting points, interesting post!.

My husband and I were discussing a variation on #1 before this thread began.

Since I'm teachng myself to sign and in turn teaching my family, I've found

that there are several (probably many) signs that work for several English

words. While those words all share the same general concept, there are nuanced

differences in the meanings. Other things like " see you later " would be

correctly

signed as " meet you later " obviously can cause confusion when reading. If an

AL fluent child reads that someone says " see you later " the general content

will be understood. You obviously have to meet up with someone to be able to

see

them, but the colloquial use of " see " is not being correctly understood. I was

pointing this out to my hubby when we were talking about ASL as a choice for

Ian if he needs sign to help with college. LIke I said, we're in the midst of

deciding what to try.

Number 3 is one that I found personally frustrating. When my son was in 5th

grade his

Spec Ed teacher would send notes filed with spelling errors. Words like

schedule -- (spelled schedual) a word that I would think anyone with an

education

degree should know how to spell. But I will admit that she was the only one of

her kind. Once Ian was in the middle school the Spec Ed people were far better

spoken and literate.

And number 4 is, I think, something that is chronic throughout our culture,

not just applying to D/HH or other kids with special needs. I don't thinking

our general popluation is nearly as well educated as we think they are. I

doubt

that the average reading level of Americans reaches a 9th grade level. (I've

decided to search and find if there are state on the average reading level of

the general public.) In my opinion, this is not the fault of our schools and

teachers, becuase the education is there for the taking. IMHO, it is more

linked

to parental expectations and support of the education available.

Over the years I can't tell you how many parents have made comments to my

husband about how much of what is learned in school is not important, and what

was good enough for them should be good enough. If parents don't value the

education, neither will their kids. Do we need to know the word " facetious " in

order to survive in our society? Nope, but it makes for a pretty good

alternative

to " sarcastic. " Plus it is one of only a few words in the english language

which contain all the vowels in alphabetical order. Pretty cool, and of

absolutely no value except that it is fun to know and a fun word to use.

Best -- Jill

_________________________________________________________________

<<3. Insufficient language in support staff

I think this is a huge issue. Interpreters and teachers whose

language skills are lower than those of the child they are working with are

not

helping (ditto speech and language therapists). I can speak and read French

with

moderate fluency, but I would never dream of teaching it to someone else, let

alone trying to interpret.

4. Culture of low expectations

This is a problem specific to the school system. After all, if

*most* deaf kids read at a third grade level, that's a reasonable goal.>>

[Guest guest]

I have followed the discussion/thoughts on cued speech and have a question

myself:

We have a 5 months old son, , who is deaf (auditory neuropathy). We have

started to learn BSL (we live in the UK) and will also attend a residential week

long course on cued speech in 2 weeks' time. We find the concept of cued speech

very convincing but cued speech is fairly uncommon in the UK, and only very few

people seem to use it. Therefore we are thinking about using BSL and cued speech

in parallel, eg sign a sentence (to the extent we can) and then repeat it with

cued speech, or the other way round. It sounds very confusing and complicated,

but we have no better idea - we very much like cued speech and the concept of

learning English through its use, but we want to be able to communicate

with us as soon as possible (and cued speech seems to be too difficult for

babies/toddlers to actively use), and with others, who most likely haven't even

heard of cued speech.

I don't want to discuss the pros and cons of ASL/BSL and cued speech, but would

rather like to know whether anybody out there has any experience with using both

in parallel, and how it could work.

Thanks very much.

Marie

mom to , 5 months, AN, and Felix, 2 yrs 5 mths, hearing

All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each post is the

intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to copyright

restrictions.

[Guest guest]

I have followed the discussion/thoughts on cued speech and have a question

myself:

We have a 5 months old son, , who is deaf (auditory neuropathy). We have

started to learn BSL (we live in the UK) and will also attend a residential week

long course on cued speech in 2 weeks' time. We find the concept of cued speech

very convincing but cued speech is fairly uncommon in the UK, and only very few

people seem to use it. Therefore we are thinking about using BSL and cued speech

in parallel, eg sign a sentence (to the extent we can) and then repeat it with

cued speech, or the other way round. It sounds very confusing and complicated,

but we have no better idea - we very much like cued speech and the concept of

learning English through its use, but we want to be able to communicate

with us as soon as possible (and cued speech seems to be too difficult for

babies/toddlers to actively use), and with others, who most likely haven't even

heard of cued speech.

I don't want to discuss the pros and cons of ASL/BSL and cued speech, but would

rather like to know whether anybody out there has any experience with using both

in parallel, and how it could work.

Thanks very much.

Marie

mom to , 5 months, AN, and Felix, 2 yrs 5 mths, hearing

All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each post is the

intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to copyright

restrictions.

[Guest guest]

http://www.cuedspeech.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=209

This is an old link to a woman that did a paper on this and the link to the

paper doesn't work, but maybe you can use the info to chase her down?

Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

> I have followed the discussion/thoughts on cued speech and have a question

myself:

>

> We have a 5 months old son, , who is deaf (auditory neuropathy). We

have started to learn BSL (we live in the UK) and will also attend a

residential week long course on cued speech in 2 weeks' time. We find the

concept of cued speech very convincing but cued speech is fairly uncommon in

the UK, and only very few people seem to use it. Therefore we are thinking

about using BSL and cued speech in parallel, eg sign a sentence (to the

extent we can) and then repeat it with cued speech, or the other way round.

It sounds very confusing and complicated, but we have no better idea - we

very much like cued speech and the concept of learning English through its

use, but we want to be able to communicate with us as soon as

possible (and cued speech seems to be too difficult for babies/toddlers to

actively use), and with others, who most likely haven't even heard of cued

speech.

>

> I don't want to discuss the pros and cons of ASL/BSL and cued speech, but

would rather like to know whether anybody out there has any experience with

using both in parallel, and how it could work.

>

> Thanks very much.

>

> Marie

> mom to , 5 months, AN, and Felix, 2 yrs 5 mths, hearing

>

>

>

>

> All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each post

is the intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to

copyright restrictions.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

http://www.cuedspeech.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=209

This is an old link to a woman that did a paper on this and the link to the

paper doesn't work, but maybe you can use the info to chase her down?

Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

> I have followed the discussion/thoughts on cued speech and have a question

myself:

>

> We have a 5 months old son, , who is deaf (auditory neuropathy). We

have started to learn BSL (we live in the UK) and will also attend a

residential week long course on cued speech in 2 weeks' time. We find the

concept of cued speech very convincing but cued speech is fairly uncommon in

the UK, and only very few people seem to use it. Therefore we are thinking

about using BSL and cued speech in parallel, eg sign a sentence (to the

extent we can) and then repeat it with cued speech, or the other way round.

It sounds very confusing and complicated, but we have no better idea - we

very much like cued speech and the concept of learning English through its

use, but we want to be able to communicate with us as soon as

possible (and cued speech seems to be too difficult for babies/toddlers to

actively use), and with others, who most likely haven't even heard of cued

speech.

>

> I don't want to discuss the pros and cons of ASL/BSL and cued speech, but

would rather like to know whether anybody out there has any experience with

using both in parallel, and how it could work.

>

> Thanks very much.

>

> Marie

> mom to , 5 months, AN, and Felix, 2 yrs 5 mths, hearing

>

>

>

>

> All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each post

is the intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to

copyright restrictions.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Read the part by Ann...the rest may be considered inflammatory for this

list, but I did want you to have access to list links so I apologize up

front as it does not represent my opinion. I know Sarina Roffe and she's an

incredible resource for this kind of info. She has a son who is grown now

and she's guided many a parent down the path of cued speech. If the link

doesn't get you to her, I can find her for you

[Guest guest]

Read the part by Ann...the rest may be considered inflammatory for this

list, but I did want you to have access to list links so I apologize up

front as it does not represent my opinion. I know Sarina Roffe and she's an

incredible resource for this kind of info. She has a son who is grown now

and she's guided many a parent down the path of cued speech. If the link

doesn't get you to her, I can find her for you

[Guest guest]

Marie,

I have no advice on the subject I just wanted to say I have the same idea. We

are currently using Total Communication with ASL and in time would like to teach

how to speak with the use of cued speach, but am not exactly sure how that

will work.

Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

[Guest guest]

Marie,

I have no advice on the subject I just wanted to say I have the same idea. We

are currently using Total Communication with ASL and in time would like to teach

how to speak with the use of cued speach, but am not exactly sure how that

will work.

Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the information, I agree that is completely inflamatory but I read

this first. I think it is silly to say that ASL doesn't improve literacy, maybe

not with some kids, but with others it does. My goal is (may be different from

other parents and not necessarily right for everyone) to first develop

communication in my son and second teach him how to speak and understand speach,

by whatever means works. I right now want him to have a language, and his

school is trying to use pictures and not focus on siging. Our speach therapist

and I used to see eye to eye but now she feels that any communication is good.

I am seeing that changing the way we are telling him to communicate and using

all sorts of methods is not working for him, he is getting confused and tends to

use gestures with most people because he realizes not everyone understands his

signs. I want them to sign and make him sign. If they use pictures it should

be soley to teach him there is a sequence of events and not to give him a way to

make a choice. He likes to take the easy way out, I can't blame him for this,

it just means we have to push him to work and to sign. They don't push him to

sign, and that's not ok with me. I guess I am getting tired of this communicate

by any means necessary, because it is extreemely limiting. If we focused on one

form he would pick it up that much quicker. We could spend 6 hours a day

working on ASL instead of 2 hours with pictures, 2 hours with gestures and 2

hours with ASL. I would think he would pick up sign much quicker if we

eliminated the other things as an option for him. He doesn't need the others,

he is very good at indicating without sign what he wants it just only gets him

so far and we want to move past that, pictures don't move past that it just

gives him another limited way to tell us something. ASL is not limiting for him

it is excelling. Once he has a proficiant form of communication (our choice is

ASL) then I plan on working on speach and lipreading and listening probably with

the help of some form of cueing whether it be letter cueing or regular cueing.

Anyway sorry for the rant I know it got off the subject. Can anyone else

identify with me? I am getting a little anoyed at our speech therapist for

insisting any form of communication is good. He is over 3 years old it is a

little late for using pictures and gestures he needs a language and he is

capable of developing language so why are we holding him up with this other

stuff? That's what it is in my mind holding him up. It is limiting. I am on a

roll here, because for months I have had such a hard time putting this into

words and finally I am able to clearly see why I don't want them using pictures

and gestures, and now that I can finally put it into words it is a really good

reason and I know why I have been so upset about it, but couldn't put it into

words. I have to get this out tonight because tomorrow we are seeing the ENT

for the first time and we need as much info as possable for what we want with

him and what we want him to do for us. I am going to end this and make a new

post regarding our ENT appointment because I am getting way off subject here.

Thanks for listening to this sort of vent session I went on.

Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

Read the part by Ann...the rest may be considered inflammatory for this

list, but I did want you to have access to list links so I apologize up

front as it does not represent my opinion. I know Sarina Roffe and she's an

incredible resource for this kind of info. She has a son who is grown now

and she's guided many a parent down the path of cued speech. If the link

doesn't get you to her, I can find her for you

All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each post is

the intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to copyright

restrictions.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the information, I agree that is completely inflamatory but I read

this first. I think it is silly to say that ASL doesn't improve literacy, maybe

not with some kids, but with others it does. My goal is (may be different from

other parents and not necessarily right for everyone) to first develop

communication in my son and second teach him how to speak and understand speach,

by whatever means works. I right now want him to have a language, and his

school is trying to use pictures and not focus on siging. Our speach therapist

and I used to see eye to eye but now she feels that any communication is good.

I am seeing that changing the way we are telling him to communicate and using

all sorts of methods is not working for him, he is getting confused and tends to

use gestures with most people because he realizes not everyone understands his

signs. I want them to sign and make him sign. If they use pictures it should

be soley to teach him there is a sequence of events and not to give him a way to

make a choice. He likes to take the easy way out, I can't blame him for this,

it just means we have to push him to work and to sign. They don't push him to

sign, and that's not ok with me. I guess I am getting tired of this communicate

by any means necessary, because it is extreemely limiting. If we focused on one

form he would pick it up that much quicker. We could spend 6 hours a day

working on ASL instead of 2 hours with pictures, 2 hours with gestures and 2

hours with ASL. I would think he would pick up sign much quicker if we

eliminated the other things as an option for him. He doesn't need the others,

he is very good at indicating without sign what he wants it just only gets him

so far and we want to move past that, pictures don't move past that it just

gives him another limited way to tell us something. ASL is not limiting for him

it is excelling. Once he has a proficiant form of communication (our choice is

ASL) then I plan on working on speach and lipreading and listening probably with

the help of some form of cueing whether it be letter cueing or regular cueing.

Anyway sorry for the rant I know it got off the subject. Can anyone else

identify with me? I am getting a little anoyed at our speech therapist for

insisting any form of communication is good. He is over 3 years old it is a

little late for using pictures and gestures he needs a language and he is

capable of developing language so why are we holding him up with this other

stuff? That's what it is in my mind holding him up. It is limiting. I am on a

roll here, because for months I have had such a hard time putting this into

words and finally I am able to clearly see why I don't want them using pictures

and gestures, and now that I can finally put it into words it is a really good

reason and I know why I have been so upset about it, but couldn't put it into

words. I have to get this out tonight because tomorrow we are seeing the ENT

for the first time and we need as much info as possable for what we want with

him and what we want him to do for us. I am going to end this and make a new

post regarding our ENT appointment because I am getting way off subject here.

Thanks for listening to this sort of vent session I went on.

Re: reading levels of deaf and HOH

Read the part by Ann...the rest may be considered inflammatory for this

list, but I did want you to have access to list links so I apologize up

front as it does not represent my opinion. I know Sarina Roffe and she's an

incredible resource for this kind of info. She has a son who is grown now

and she's guided many a parent down the path of cued speech. If the link

doesn't get you to her, I can find her for you

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