Guest guest Posted November 29, 2010 Report Share Posted November 29, 2010 Short answer: Don't see them, and don't feel guilty. Think of it like you would think of your kids (because BPDs are very much emotionally child-like): does it help your kids for them not to face the consequences of their choices? So don't allow them to have no consequences for mistreating you! And for something else to think about, someone else on this list once commented that we KOs should listen to the reactions of our gut more. Our fight-or-flight responses are legitimate adrenaline responses to the need for self-preservation. If your tum seizes up at the thought of seeing or talking to them, then don't. For the record, this year, I listened to that advice for the first time, and planned a thanksgiving that was just our nuclear family, planning to say no to any invites from my foo. They never called, but I had already decided, so I didn't care. And the event itself was the best holiday I've ever had, in my life, bar none. Including my wedding, which included stepnada. May we all heal, Tina > > Hi all, > > Don't want to see nada. Don't want to see foo. Don't care about why anymore. Here's the point - when I talk to them, I feel down. When I see them, I feel like I'd rather be cleaning out the septic tank with a metal tape and bare hands... You get the point. (Yes, I got to do that job - I was shit, so it doesn't hurt shit to touch shit.) > > I used to worry so much about the list of " charges " against them. I actually made a little notebook with reference tabs to remind me when the FOG rolled in. Finally I got tired of taking nada and the others to court in my mind trying to absolve them of guilt and working out all of these perfectly phrased responses, role playing with my dog or whatever. (I know these things can be very necessary, just that I'm kind of tired of it now.) > > So, what about the OBLIGATION part? Yep, it's still there. I have 2 kids who like to see nada for toys and candy and every once in a while I get stupid/crazy/high on sugar enough to think it would be " fun " to have her come over or meet for lunch. I am still working it through in my mind, but it's getting on my nerves - this obligation that I need to call her or see her every week. Should I set a schedule like for community service or what? > > -Coal Miner's Daughter > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2010 Report Share Posted November 29, 2010 I completely understand the feelings of obligation. Before I knew about BPD I would drag my 3 kids over to her house several times a year. I felt they should know their Grandma, spend some holiday time with her. How stupid I am. She'd get angry that one of them would dare to interrupt her (kids should be seen, not heard). She would give them some paper, crayons and a deck of cards and shut them out in the patio and tell them to play. My husband hated it but I kept insisting it was the right thing to do. Of course now they have no connection to her at all which is fine and smart. Looking back, my first obligation should have been to my kids. Now my nada is 82 yo and alone. She's getting flakier and weaker by the month. She needs to be in assisted living but refuses to go. So I (we - husband is still helping me) go over twice a week to take her to doctor visits, do grocery shopping and yard/house work. I'm getting better at tuning her out and just looking at her as a " job. " I can't allow myself to feel sorry for her or she'll sniff it out and stab me in the back, sure as can be. > > Hi all, > > Don't want to see nada. Don't want to see foo. Don't care about why anymore. Here's the point - when I talk to them, I feel down. When I see them, I feel like I'd rather be cleaning out the septic tank with a metal tape and bare hands... You get the point. (Yes, I got to do that job - I was shit, so it doesn't hurt shit to touch shit.) > > I used to worry so much about the list of " charges " against them. I actually made a little notebook with reference tabs to remind me when the FOG rolled in. Finally I got tired of taking nada and the others to court in my mind trying to absolve them of guilt and working out all of these perfectly phrased responses, role playing with my dog or whatever. (I know these things can be very necessary, just that I'm kind of tired of it now.) > > So, what about the OBLIGATION part? Yep, it's still there. I have 2 kids who like to see nada for toys and candy and every once in a while I get stupid/crazy/high on sugar enough to think it would be " fun " to have her come over or meet for lunch. I am still working it through in my mind, but it's getting on my nerves - this obligation that I need to call her or see her every week. Should I set a schedule like for community service or what? > > -Coal Miner's Daughter > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2010 Report Share Posted November 29, 2010 I completely understand the feelings of obligation. Before I knew about BPD I would drag my 3 kids over to her house several times a year. I felt they should know their Grandma, spend some holiday time with her. How stupid I am. She'd get angry that one of them would dare to interrupt her (kids should be seen, not heard). She would give them some paper, crayons and a deck of cards and shut them out in the patio and tell them to play. My husband hated it but I kept insisting it was the right thing to do. Of course now they have no connection to her at all which is fine and smart. Looking back, my first obligation should have been to my kids. Now my nada is 82 yo and alone. She's getting flakier and weaker by the month. She needs to be in assisted living but refuses to go. So I (we - husband is still helping me) go over twice a week to take her to doctor visits, do grocery shopping and yard/house work. I'm getting better at tuning her out and just looking at her as a " job. " I can't allow myself to feel sorry for her or she'll sniff it out and stab me in the back, sure as can be. > > Hi all, > > Don't want to see nada. Don't want to see foo. Don't care about why anymore. Here's the point - when I talk to them, I feel down. When I see them, I feel like I'd rather be cleaning out the septic tank with a metal tape and bare hands... You get the point. (Yes, I got to do that job - I was shit, so it doesn't hurt shit to touch shit.) > > I used to worry so much about the list of " charges " against them. I actually made a little notebook with reference tabs to remind me when the FOG rolled in. Finally I got tired of taking nada and the others to court in my mind trying to absolve them of guilt and working out all of these perfectly phrased responses, role playing with my dog or whatever. (I know these things can be very necessary, just that I'm kind of tired of it now.) > > So, what about the OBLIGATION part? Yep, it's still there. I have 2 kids who like to see nada for toys and candy and every once in a while I get stupid/crazy/high on sugar enough to think it would be " fun " to have her come over or meet for lunch. I am still working it through in my mind, but it's getting on my nerves - this obligation that I need to call her or see her every week. Should I set a schedule like for community service or what? > > -Coal Miner's Daughter > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2010 Report Share Posted November 29, 2010 Coal Miner's Daughter, You absolutely crack me up. I love your posts! Thanks for putting the humour in, what a relief! I love the notebook for when the " FOG rolls in " . Does everyone have one of those or what? And that's exactly why you need it, for when the fog does roll in, which it always does. And the list of " charges " the taking them to court in your mind and role playing with your dog. I love it. I actually bought a digital voice recorder to vent to because who else wants to hear it? It's my own personal (free) therapist and maybe material for a book later. But I have a love/hate relationship with the digital recorder, sometimes I just feel worse, like just sloshing around in the down and dirty. And I understand completely your giving in to your kids on your " stupid/crazy/high on sugar " moments. (For me it's when I feel happy and balanced and can take on the world, including my nada's problems or on a caffeine high or back from a run at the gym and feel invincible. And then I remember I'm not. Not even close.) My kids too like the presents and candy " But Mommy, Grandma must be a nice lady, she sends us toys! " Exactly what she WANTS them to think!!! Manipulative to the extreme. Anyways, I am currently NC after my latest episode where I called to fix things and she raged uncontrollably, accused me of giving her heart problems, and manipulated her neighbour to contact/attack me. Every time I go NC, it's like she's dead to me, and I try to treat it like that. But I know she's not, and that's the problem. No closure. Always the possibility of fixing her, fixing us. Always the doubt. The inability to make the right decision and stick with it. I try to think of my children first. What did I want most when I was a kid? To be AWAY from her. So that's the gift I give my kids. You want them to have what you always wanted, right? Anyways, enjoyed your post. Keep em coming! > > Hi all, > > Don't want to see nada. Don't want to see foo. Don't care about why anymore. Here's the point - when I talk to them, I feel down. When I see them, I feel like I'd rather be cleaning out the septic tank with a metal tape and bare hands... You get the point. (Yes, I got to do that job - I was shit, so it doesn't hurt shit to touch shit.) > > I used to worry so much about the list of " charges " against them. I actually made a little notebook with reference tabs to remind me when the FOG rolled in. Finally I got tired of taking nada and the others to court in my mind trying to absolve them of guilt and working out all of these perfectly phrased responses, role playing with my dog or whatever. (I know these things can be very necessary, just that I'm kind of tired of it now.) > > So, what about the OBLIGATION part? Yep, it's still there. I have 2 kids who like to see nada for toys and candy and every once in a while I get stupid/crazy/high on sugar enough to think it would be " fun " to have her come over or meet for lunch. I am still working it through in my mind, but it's getting on my nerves - this obligation that I need to call her or see her every week. Should I set a schedule like for community service or what? > > -Coal Miner's Daughter > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2010 Report Share Posted November 30, 2010 Thank you; I needed that. I will do exactly as you recommend. I just took a deep breathe. Feels good. We had a nuclear family Thanksgiving this year as well. Made a little turkey breast and instant mashed potatoes. So easy. Then we sat around and watched a kids movie together and organized the house a bit. It was really fun and the kids had an absolute ball! They danced around the house and played like it was the greatest thing in the world - just having Mom and Dad around and relaxed. My husband smiled more that day than I can remember; just watching the boys play and wrestle. He rolled around with them too, like a bunch of puppies. Cute! -Coal Miner's Daughter > > Short answer: Don't see them, and don't feel guilty. > > Think of it like you would think of your kids (because BPDs are very much emotionally child-like): does it help your kids for them not to face the consequences of their choices? So don't allow them to have no consequences for mistreating you! > > And for something else to think about, someone else on this list once commented that we KOs should listen to the reactions of our gut more. Our fight-or-flight responses are legitimate adrenaline responses to the need for self-preservation. > > If your tum seizes up at the thought of seeing or talking to them, then don't. > > For the record, this year, I listened to that advice for the first time, and planned a thanksgiving that was just our nuclear family, planning to say no to any invites from my foo. They never called, but I had already decided, so I didn't care. And the event itself was the best holiday I've ever had, in my life, bar none. Including my wedding, which included stepnada. > > May we all heal, > Tina > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2010 Report Share Posted November 30, 2010 Thank you; I needed that. I will do exactly as you recommend. I just took a deep breathe. Feels good. We had a nuclear family Thanksgiving this year as well. Made a little turkey breast and instant mashed potatoes. So easy. Then we sat around and watched a kids movie together and organized the house a bit. It was really fun and the kids had an absolute ball! They danced around the house and played like it was the greatest thing in the world - just having Mom and Dad around and relaxed. My husband smiled more that day than I can remember; just watching the boys play and wrestle. He rolled around with them too, like a bunch of puppies. Cute! -Coal Miner's Daughter > > Short answer: Don't see them, and don't feel guilty. > > Think of it like you would think of your kids (because BPDs are very much emotionally child-like): does it help your kids for them not to face the consequences of their choices? So don't allow them to have no consequences for mistreating you! > > And for something else to think about, someone else on this list once commented that we KOs should listen to the reactions of our gut more. Our fight-or-flight responses are legitimate adrenaline responses to the need for self-preservation. > > If your tum seizes up at the thought of seeing or talking to them, then don't. > > For the record, this year, I listened to that advice for the first time, and planned a thanksgiving that was just our nuclear family, planning to say no to any invites from my foo. They never called, but I had already decided, so I didn't care. And the event itself was the best holiday I've ever had, in my life, bar none. Including my wedding, which included stepnada. > > May we all heal, > Tina > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2010 Report Share Posted November 30, 2010 I hadn't thought much about this angle; the fact that the kids aren't really interacting with her anyway. It's like my loss of the illusion of a mother that never existed. They can't really " miss " grandma if they only know her toys and video games, can they? I will definitely continue seeing her less, at my convenience. It is making my life so much more peaceful and better for the kids too. I can see it already in my son's attitude. I have more energy for parenting my kids when I'm not parenting my parent. Regarding your situation: if you decided not to continue enabling her to stay at home, would she have to go to assisted living? Perhaps that would be the natural course of things at this time... Just a thought. :-) -Coal Miner's Daughter > > I completely understand the feelings of obligation. Before I knew about BPD I would drag my 3 kids over to her house several times a year. I felt they should know their Grandma, spend some holiday time with her. How stupid I am. She'd get angry that one of them would dare to interrupt her (kids should be seen, not heard). She would give them some paper, crayons and a deck of cards and shut them out in the patio and tell them to play. My husband hated it but I kept insisting it was the right thing to do. Of course now they have no connection to her at all which is fine and smart. Looking back, my first obligation should have been to my kids. > > Now my nada is 82 yo and alone. She's getting flakier and weaker by the month. She needs to be in assisted living but refuses to go. So I (we - husband is still helping me) go over twice a week to take her to doctor visits, do grocery shopping and yard/house work. I'm getting better at tuning her out and just looking at her as a " job. " I can't allow myself to feel sorry for her or she'll sniff it out and stab me in the back, sure as can be. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2010 Report Share Posted November 30, 2010 I hadn't thought much about this angle; the fact that the kids aren't really interacting with her anyway. It's like my loss of the illusion of a mother that never existed. They can't really " miss " grandma if they only know her toys and video games, can they? I will definitely continue seeing her less, at my convenience. It is making my life so much more peaceful and better for the kids too. I can see it already in my son's attitude. I have more energy for parenting my kids when I'm not parenting my parent. Regarding your situation: if you decided not to continue enabling her to stay at home, would she have to go to assisted living? Perhaps that would be the natural course of things at this time... Just a thought. :-) -Coal Miner's Daughter > > I completely understand the feelings of obligation. Before I knew about BPD I would drag my 3 kids over to her house several times a year. I felt they should know their Grandma, spend some holiday time with her. How stupid I am. She'd get angry that one of them would dare to interrupt her (kids should be seen, not heard). She would give them some paper, crayons and a deck of cards and shut them out in the patio and tell them to play. My husband hated it but I kept insisting it was the right thing to do. Of course now they have no connection to her at all which is fine and smart. Looking back, my first obligation should have been to my kids. > > Now my nada is 82 yo and alone. She's getting flakier and weaker by the month. She needs to be in assisted living but refuses to go. So I (we - husband is still helping me) go over twice a week to take her to doctor visits, do grocery shopping and yard/house work. I'm getting better at tuning her out and just looking at her as a " job. " I can't allow myself to feel sorry for her or she'll sniff it out and stab me in the back, sure as can be. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2010 Report Share Posted November 30, 2010 No Closure. That hits the nail on the head, doesn't it? I think that is one of the peskiest little details in this scenario. I wonder if anyone has figured out a way to manufacture even a pretend sense of closure in this thing? The only thing I've come up with so far is that it really makes no difference what I do anyway. I know this because family members have conferred on phone call times in the past and established proof that nada calls them seconds after hanging up with a " resolved " problem. It is just a waste of an hour to play counselor with her. Also, I like to do the " circle of life " thing and tell myself I'm " stopping the cycle of abuse " . I think there is truth in this. Being a better person by reducing interactions with her is my little gift to the world and to my own kids. :-) What an excellent point: that what I always wanted was to be AWAY from her, so I can give them that. It is just like saying no when they want to play in lightening or with the scissors. Of course it looks fun and exciting! But telling them no for their own good and taking one on the chin for it is part of real parenting. Hmmm... Thanks! +Coal Miner's Daughter > But I have a No closure. Always the possibility of fixing her, fixing us. Always the doubt. The inability to make the right decision and stick with it. I try to think of my children first. What did I want most when I was a kid? To be AWAY from her. So that's the gift I give my kids. You want them to have what you always wanted, right? Anyways, enjoyed your post. Keep em coming! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2010 Report Share Posted November 30, 2010 No Closure. That hits the nail on the head, doesn't it? I think that is one of the peskiest little details in this scenario. I wonder if anyone has figured out a way to manufacture even a pretend sense of closure in this thing? The only thing I've come up with so far is that it really makes no difference what I do anyway. I know this because family members have conferred on phone call times in the past and established proof that nada calls them seconds after hanging up with a " resolved " problem. It is just a waste of an hour to play counselor with her. Also, I like to do the " circle of life " thing and tell myself I'm " stopping the cycle of abuse " . I think there is truth in this. Being a better person by reducing interactions with her is my little gift to the world and to my own kids. :-) What an excellent point: that what I always wanted was to be AWAY from her, so I can give them that. It is just like saying no when they want to play in lightening or with the scissors. Of course it looks fun and exciting! But telling them no for their own good and taking one on the chin for it is part of real parenting. Hmmm... Thanks! +Coal Miner's Daughter > But I have a No closure. Always the possibility of fixing her, fixing us. Always the doubt. The inability to make the right decision and stick with it. I try to think of my children first. What did I want most when I was a kid? To be AWAY from her. So that's the gift I give my kids. You want them to have what you always wanted, right? Anyways, enjoyed your post. Keep em coming! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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