Guest guest Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 Good evening, everyone. The light bulb fully went off this weekend. I have been aware that my Nada had BP, but I didn't realize there was support out here. I have felt alone my entire life. My title is afraid, because even though I am in my 30's, somehow I feel like she is going to find out and I'll be " in trouble " . I have been on the border of loving my Nada and hating my Nada all my life. I feel torn, because she did some good things. But when things were and are bad, they are bad. I vascillate frequently depending on how she is. I feel like the only person in the family who is informed about what she really is and I am the only one who tells her about herself and fights back. My older bro- is completely emotionally detached, younger smokes weed to detach and father is a Fada. I love my Fada, but he is a weak, spineless Fada. I love him, but I am angry that he has saved his hide this whole time, to the demise of his children (even though he knows my mom's behavior doesn't make sense and isn't right). He does choose to stay. This weekend I have been sickened. For some reason all of the brutal incidents of my mother's rage returned to my memory. This coincides with her ramping up her behavior, because she is grieving. She is starting to lash out at everyone and I am just sick and damn tired of dealing with her. I am ready to cut her completely off. I am afraid though. I feel like I am standing on one foot at the top of a tiny peak of a mountain. She used to back hand me at will, hit me so hard as a child that my nose would bleed and even broke dishes on our heads. This is the woman I sickly/oddly love, but also dislike. No one understands why I am so weak/non-assertive, but it is because if I stood up to her I would get viciously beaten. I grew up just itching for the day when I could fight back and that day came. I tried to restrain myself, but then again I didn't. She did not ever hit me again after that day. Fighting parents is not ever condoned in my culture(but I don't care). Then the battle moved to pure mind control. Forget mind control - control. She then controlled me with chores and jealousy. An ex-boyfriend of mine died a little over a year ago. I am still grieving him. I realized this weekend that he was competition for her. She treated him horribly when we dated. Horribly! She cussed him out at will and was just evil. I now believe she was afraid he would take me away. She was right. It is almost like every single piece to this puzzle slipped into place this weekend. I have always been too afraid to cut her off. I am going to review the site to determine what modes of boundary-filled communication exist. If I don't feel like any of them will work for me, it is time for me to move on. I feel like if I don't separate myself...I'll never grow into the woman I have always wanted to be. I kind of wish I could drop everything and just move away too. I am just afraid. Is there anyone out there with any thoughts? I have separated from her in the past, but I eventually reach out again out of guilt (because she calls sounding sad every day/even if I don't return calls) and she " hoovers " me right back in to enmeshment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2010 Report Share Posted December 16, 2010 Hi Latasha and welcome Occasionally when people join here they do worry that somehow their nada will discover their participation on this message board--but a BPD would be highly unlikely to be reading anything related to BPD since it's the rare one who is able to acknowledge that they have it at all,you know? Has your nada been diagnosed with that? Is she in denial that she is mentally ill? My condolences for the death of your boyfriend.That's got to be really rough.I'm sorry. I'm NC with my nada and immediate FOO (my personality disordered fada is deceased).For me personally being NC has helped ALOT with my healing.I used to get sucked back in at times by fada before he died because he'd be all pathetic needing me--he was often ill with something (he had diabetes and heart disease) and him " needing " me got me re-enmeshed since I had been completely parentified by him. Are you thinking about setting boundaries with your nada as to what you will not tolerate? As in: Nada,I can't speak to you/be with you when you do/say X,so I will speak to you/see you when you are feeling calmer...but you aren't sure how she will take it? Remember that boundaries are something you set for you and with a BPD require repeated statings of the boundary,but if your BPD refuses to heed them,you have every right to decide to walk away....and if they continue to refuse to heed them,to call off contact.But that is a very individual choice that is based on your own needs. It sounds like you've had an intense weekend,recalling so much.Please keep posting.We are all here to help eachother to work our stuff out.It's complicated and difficult and it takes time to even begin to sort out.Please try to give yourself some grace as you figure out what is the next step you want to take.What is it that you're afraid of if you completely cut her off? We are here to support you as you work through this. > > > Good evening, everyone. > > The light bulb fully went off this weekend. I have been aware that my Nada had BP, but I didn't realize there was support out here. I have felt alone my entire life. > > My title is afraid, because even though I am in my 30's, somehow I feel like she is going to find out and I'll be " in trouble " . > > I have been on the border of loving my Nada and hating my Nada all my life. I feel torn, because she did some good things. But when things were and are bad, they are bad. I vascillate frequently depending on how she is. I feel like the only person in the family who is informed about what she really is and I am the only one who tells her about herself and fights back. My older bro- is completely emotionally detached, younger smokes weed to detach and father is a Fada. I love my Fada, but he is a weak, spineless Fada. I love him, but I am angry that he has saved his hide this whole time, to the demise of his children (even though he knows my mom's behavior doesn't make sense and isn't right). He does choose to stay. > > This weekend I have been sickened. For some reason all of the brutal incidents of my mother's rage returned to my memory. This coincides with her ramping up her behavior, because she is grieving. She is starting to lash out at everyone and I am just sick and damn tired of dealing with her. I am ready to cut her completely off. I am afraid though. > > I feel like I am standing on one foot at the top of a tiny peak of a mountain. She used to back hand me at will, hit me so hard as a child that my nose would bleed and even broke dishes on our heads. This is the woman I sickly/oddly love, but also dislike. No one understands why I am so weak/non-assertive, but it is because if I stood up to her I would get viciously beaten. I grew up just itching for the day when I could fight back and that day came. I tried to restrain myself, but then again I didn't. She did not ever hit me again after that day. Fighting parents is not ever condoned in my culture(but I don't care). Then the battle moved to pure mind control. Forget mind control - control. She then controlled me with chores and jealousy. > > An ex-boyfriend of mine died a little over a year ago. I am still grieving him. I realized this weekend that he was competition for her. She treated him horribly when we dated. Horribly! She cussed him out at will and was just evil. I now believe she was afraid he would take me away. She was right. > > It is almost like every single piece to this puzzle slipped into place this weekend. I have always been too afraid to cut her off. I am going to review the site to determine what modes of boundary-filled communication exist. If I don't feel like any of them will work for me, it is time for me to move on. I feel like if I don't separate myself...I'll never grow into the woman I have always wanted to be. I kind of wish I could drop everything and just move away too. > > I am just afraid. Is there anyone out there with any thoughts? I have separated from her in the past, but I eventually reach out again out of guilt (because she calls sounding sad every day/even if I don't return calls) and she " hoovers " me right back in to enmeshment. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2010 Report Share Posted December 16, 2010 Hi Latasha and welcome Occasionally when people join here they do worry that somehow their nada will discover their participation on this message board--but a BPD would be highly unlikely to be reading anything related to BPD since it's the rare one who is able to acknowledge that they have it at all,you know? Has your nada been diagnosed with that? Is she in denial that she is mentally ill? My condolences for the death of your boyfriend.That's got to be really rough.I'm sorry. I'm NC with my nada and immediate FOO (my personality disordered fada is deceased).For me personally being NC has helped ALOT with my healing.I used to get sucked back in at times by fada before he died because he'd be all pathetic needing me--he was often ill with something (he had diabetes and heart disease) and him " needing " me got me re-enmeshed since I had been completely parentified by him. Are you thinking about setting boundaries with your nada as to what you will not tolerate? As in: Nada,I can't speak to you/be with you when you do/say X,so I will speak to you/see you when you are feeling calmer...but you aren't sure how she will take it? Remember that boundaries are something you set for you and with a BPD require repeated statings of the boundary,but if your BPD refuses to heed them,you have every right to decide to walk away....and if they continue to refuse to heed them,to call off contact.But that is a very individual choice that is based on your own needs. It sounds like you've had an intense weekend,recalling so much.Please keep posting.We are all here to help eachother to work our stuff out.It's complicated and difficult and it takes time to even begin to sort out.Please try to give yourself some grace as you figure out what is the next step you want to take.What is it that you're afraid of if you completely cut her off? We are here to support you as you work through this. > > > Good evening, everyone. > > The light bulb fully went off this weekend. I have been aware that my Nada had BP, but I didn't realize there was support out here. I have felt alone my entire life. > > My title is afraid, because even though I am in my 30's, somehow I feel like she is going to find out and I'll be " in trouble " . > > I have been on the border of loving my Nada and hating my Nada all my life. I feel torn, because she did some good things. But when things were and are bad, they are bad. I vascillate frequently depending on how she is. I feel like the only person in the family who is informed about what she really is and I am the only one who tells her about herself and fights back. My older bro- is completely emotionally detached, younger smokes weed to detach and father is a Fada. I love my Fada, but he is a weak, spineless Fada. I love him, but I am angry that he has saved his hide this whole time, to the demise of his children (even though he knows my mom's behavior doesn't make sense and isn't right). He does choose to stay. > > This weekend I have been sickened. For some reason all of the brutal incidents of my mother's rage returned to my memory. This coincides with her ramping up her behavior, because she is grieving. She is starting to lash out at everyone and I am just sick and damn tired of dealing with her. I am ready to cut her completely off. I am afraid though. > > I feel like I am standing on one foot at the top of a tiny peak of a mountain. She used to back hand me at will, hit me so hard as a child that my nose would bleed and even broke dishes on our heads. This is the woman I sickly/oddly love, but also dislike. No one understands why I am so weak/non-assertive, but it is because if I stood up to her I would get viciously beaten. I grew up just itching for the day when I could fight back and that day came. I tried to restrain myself, but then again I didn't. She did not ever hit me again after that day. Fighting parents is not ever condoned in my culture(but I don't care). Then the battle moved to pure mind control. Forget mind control - control. She then controlled me with chores and jealousy. > > An ex-boyfriend of mine died a little over a year ago. I am still grieving him. I realized this weekend that he was competition for her. She treated him horribly when we dated. Horribly! She cussed him out at will and was just evil. I now believe she was afraid he would take me away. She was right. > > It is almost like every single piece to this puzzle slipped into place this weekend. I have always been too afraid to cut her off. I am going to review the site to determine what modes of boundary-filled communication exist. If I don't feel like any of them will work for me, it is time for me to move on. I feel like if I don't separate myself...I'll never grow into the woman I have always wanted to be. I kind of wish I could drop everything and just move away too. > > I am just afraid. Is there anyone out there with any thoughts? I have separated from her in the past, but I eventually reach out again out of guilt (because she calls sounding sad every day/even if I don't return calls) and she " hoovers " me right back in to enmeshment. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2010 Report Share Posted December 16, 2010 Hi Latasha and welcome Occasionally when people join here they do worry that somehow their nada will discover their participation on this message board--but a BPD would be highly unlikely to be reading anything related to BPD since it's the rare one who is able to acknowledge that they have it at all,you know? Has your nada been diagnosed with that? Is she in denial that she is mentally ill? My condolences for the death of your boyfriend.That's got to be really rough.I'm sorry. I'm NC with my nada and immediate FOO (my personality disordered fada is deceased).For me personally being NC has helped ALOT with my healing.I used to get sucked back in at times by fada before he died because he'd be all pathetic needing me--he was often ill with something (he had diabetes and heart disease) and him " needing " me got me re-enmeshed since I had been completely parentified by him. Are you thinking about setting boundaries with your nada as to what you will not tolerate? As in: Nada,I can't speak to you/be with you when you do/say X,so I will speak to you/see you when you are feeling calmer...but you aren't sure how she will take it? Remember that boundaries are something you set for you and with a BPD require repeated statings of the boundary,but if your BPD refuses to heed them,you have every right to decide to walk away....and if they continue to refuse to heed them,to call off contact.But that is a very individual choice that is based on your own needs. It sounds like you've had an intense weekend,recalling so much.Please keep posting.We are all here to help eachother to work our stuff out.It's complicated and difficult and it takes time to even begin to sort out.Please try to give yourself some grace as you figure out what is the next step you want to take.What is it that you're afraid of if you completely cut her off? We are here to support you as you work through this. > > > Good evening, everyone. > > The light bulb fully went off this weekend. I have been aware that my Nada had BP, but I didn't realize there was support out here. I have felt alone my entire life. > > My title is afraid, because even though I am in my 30's, somehow I feel like she is going to find out and I'll be " in trouble " . > > I have been on the border of loving my Nada and hating my Nada all my life. I feel torn, because she did some good things. But when things were and are bad, they are bad. I vascillate frequently depending on how she is. I feel like the only person in the family who is informed about what she really is and I am the only one who tells her about herself and fights back. My older bro- is completely emotionally detached, younger smokes weed to detach and father is a Fada. I love my Fada, but he is a weak, spineless Fada. I love him, but I am angry that he has saved his hide this whole time, to the demise of his children (even though he knows my mom's behavior doesn't make sense and isn't right). He does choose to stay. > > This weekend I have been sickened. For some reason all of the brutal incidents of my mother's rage returned to my memory. This coincides with her ramping up her behavior, because she is grieving. She is starting to lash out at everyone and I am just sick and damn tired of dealing with her. I am ready to cut her completely off. I am afraid though. > > I feel like I am standing on one foot at the top of a tiny peak of a mountain. She used to back hand me at will, hit me so hard as a child that my nose would bleed and even broke dishes on our heads. This is the woman I sickly/oddly love, but also dislike. No one understands why I am so weak/non-assertive, but it is because if I stood up to her I would get viciously beaten. I grew up just itching for the day when I could fight back and that day came. I tried to restrain myself, but then again I didn't. She did not ever hit me again after that day. Fighting parents is not ever condoned in my culture(but I don't care). Then the battle moved to pure mind control. Forget mind control - control. She then controlled me with chores and jealousy. > > An ex-boyfriend of mine died a little over a year ago. I am still grieving him. I realized this weekend that he was competition for her. She treated him horribly when we dated. Horribly! She cussed him out at will and was just evil. I now believe she was afraid he would take me away. She was right. > > It is almost like every single piece to this puzzle slipped into place this weekend. I have always been too afraid to cut her off. I am going to review the site to determine what modes of boundary-filled communication exist. If I don't feel like any of them will work for me, it is time for me to move on. I feel like if I don't separate myself...I'll never grow into the woman I have always wanted to be. I kind of wish I could drop everything and just move away too. > > I am just afraid. Is there anyone out there with any thoughts? I have separated from her in the past, but I eventually reach out again out of guilt (because she calls sounding sad every day/even if I don't return calls) and she " hoovers " me right back in to enmeshment. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2010 Report Share Posted December 16, 2010 Hi........I hear you; part of me hates my mom and doesn't trust her at all.......and another part of me yearns for love-immersion; it's the small child within me, I'm sure. I'm very glad I don't live close to her, it would be MUCH harder to limit contact and set firm boundaries. You have my empathy........... ~ Alastriona ~ Subject: I am afraid.... (may have some triggering stuff in here) To: WTOAdultChildren1 Date: Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 5:31 PM Good evening, everyone. The light bulb fully went off this weekend. I have been aware that my Nada had BP, but I didn't realize there was support out here. I have felt alone my entire life. My title is afraid, because even though I am in my 30's, somehow I feel like she is going to find out and I'll be " in trouble " . I have been on the border of loving my Nada and hating my Nada all my life. I feel torn, because she did some good things. But when things were and are bad, they are bad. I vascillate frequently depending on how she is. I feel like the only person in the family who is informed about what she really is and I am the only one who tells her about herself and fights back. My older bro- is completely emotionally detached, younger smokes weed to detach and father is a Fada. I love my Fada, but he is a weak, spineless Fada. I love him, but I am angry that he has saved his hide this whole time, to the demise of his children (even though he knows my mom's behavior doesn't make sense and isn't right). He does choose to stay. This weekend I have been sickened. For some reason all of the brutal incidents of my mother's rage returned to my memory. This coincides with her ramping up her behavior, because she is grieving. She is starting to lash out at everyone and I am just sick and damn tired of dealing with her. I am ready to cut her completely off. I am afraid though. I feel like I am standing on one foot at the top of a tiny peak of a mountain. She used to back hand me at will, hit me so hard as a child that my nose would bleed and even broke dishes on our heads. This is the woman I sickly/oddly love, but also dislike. No one understands why I am so weak/non-assertive, but it is because if I stood up to her I would get viciously beaten. I grew up just itching for the day when I could fight back and that day came. I tried to restrain myself, but then again I didn't. She did not ever hit me again after that day. Fighting parents is not ever condoned in my culture(but I don't care). Then the battle moved to pure mind control. Forget mind control - control. She then controlled me with chores and jealousy.   An ex-boyfriend of mine died a little over a year ago. I am still grieving him. I realized this weekend that he was competition for her. She treated him horribly when we dated. Horribly! She cussed him out at will and was just evil. I now believe she was afraid he would take me away. She was right. It is almost like every single piece to this puzzle slipped into place this weekend. I have always been too afraid to cut her off. I am going to review the site to determine what modes of boundary-filled communication exist. If I don't feel like any of them will work for me, it is time for me to move on. I feel like if I don't separate myself...I'll never grow into the woman I have always wanted to be. I kind of wish I could drop everything and just move away too. I am just afraid. Is there anyone out there with any thoughts? I have separated from her in the past, but I eventually reach out again out of guilt (because she calls sounding sad every day/even if I don't return calls) and she " hoovers " me right back in to enmeshment. ------------------------------------ **This group is based on principles in Randi Kreger's new book The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder: New Tips and Tools to Stop Walking on Eggshells, available at www.BPDCentral.com.** Problems? Write @.... DO NOT RESPOND ON THE LIST. To unsub from this list, send a blank email to WTOAdultChildren1-unsubscribe . Recommended: " Toxic Parents, " " Surviving a Borderline Parent, " and " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (hard to find) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2010 Report Share Posted December 16, 2010 Hi........I hear you; part of me hates my mom and doesn't trust her at all.......and another part of me yearns for love-immersion; it's the small child within me, I'm sure. I'm very glad I don't live close to her, it would be MUCH harder to limit contact and set firm boundaries. You have my empathy........... ~ Alastriona ~ Subject: I am afraid.... (may have some triggering stuff in here) To: WTOAdultChildren1 Date: Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 5:31 PM Good evening, everyone. The light bulb fully went off this weekend. I have been aware that my Nada had BP, but I didn't realize there was support out here. I have felt alone my entire life. My title is afraid, because even though I am in my 30's, somehow I feel like she is going to find out and I'll be " in trouble " . I have been on the border of loving my Nada and hating my Nada all my life. I feel torn, because she did some good things. But when things were and are bad, they are bad. I vascillate frequently depending on how she is. I feel like the only person in the family who is informed about what she really is and I am the only one who tells her about herself and fights back. My older bro- is completely emotionally detached, younger smokes weed to detach and father is a Fada. I love my Fada, but he is a weak, spineless Fada. I love him, but I am angry that he has saved his hide this whole time, to the demise of his children (even though he knows my mom's behavior doesn't make sense and isn't right). He does choose to stay. This weekend I have been sickened. For some reason all of the brutal incidents of my mother's rage returned to my memory. This coincides with her ramping up her behavior, because she is grieving. She is starting to lash out at everyone and I am just sick and damn tired of dealing with her. I am ready to cut her completely off. I am afraid though. I feel like I am standing on one foot at the top of a tiny peak of a mountain. She used to back hand me at will, hit me so hard as a child that my nose would bleed and even broke dishes on our heads. This is the woman I sickly/oddly love, but also dislike. No one understands why I am so weak/non-assertive, but it is because if I stood up to her I would get viciously beaten. I grew up just itching for the day when I could fight back and that day came. I tried to restrain myself, but then again I didn't. She did not ever hit me again after that day. Fighting parents is not ever condoned in my culture(but I don't care). Then the battle moved to pure mind control. Forget mind control - control. She then controlled me with chores and jealousy.   An ex-boyfriend of mine died a little over a year ago. I am still grieving him. I realized this weekend that he was competition for her. She treated him horribly when we dated. Horribly! She cussed him out at will and was just evil. I now believe she was afraid he would take me away. She was right. It is almost like every single piece to this puzzle slipped into place this weekend. I have always been too afraid to cut her off. I am going to review the site to determine what modes of boundary-filled communication exist. If I don't feel like any of them will work for me, it is time for me to move on. I feel like if I don't separate myself...I'll never grow into the woman I have always wanted to be. I kind of wish I could drop everything and just move away too. I am just afraid. Is there anyone out there with any thoughts? I have separated from her in the past, but I eventually reach out again out of guilt (because she calls sounding sad every day/even if I don't return calls) and she " hoovers " me right back in to enmeshment. ------------------------------------ **This group is based on principles in Randi Kreger's new book The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder: New Tips and Tools to Stop Walking on Eggshells, available at www.BPDCentral.com.** Problems? Write @.... DO NOT RESPOND ON THE LIST. To unsub from this list, send a blank email to WTOAdultChildren1-unsubscribe . Recommended: " Toxic Parents, " " Surviving a Borderline Parent, " and " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (hard to find) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2010 Report Share Posted December 16, 2010 Hi........I hear you; part of me hates my mom and doesn't trust her at all.......and another part of me yearns for love-immersion; it's the small child within me, I'm sure. I'm very glad I don't live close to her, it would be MUCH harder to limit contact and set firm boundaries. You have my empathy........... ~ Alastriona ~ Subject: I am afraid.... (may have some triggering stuff in here) To: WTOAdultChildren1 Date: Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 5:31 PM Good evening, everyone. The light bulb fully went off this weekend. I have been aware that my Nada had BP, but I didn't realize there was support out here. I have felt alone my entire life. My title is afraid, because even though I am in my 30's, somehow I feel like she is going to find out and I'll be " in trouble " . I have been on the border of loving my Nada and hating my Nada all my life. I feel torn, because she did some good things. But when things were and are bad, they are bad. I vascillate frequently depending on how she is. I feel like the only person in the family who is informed about what she really is and I am the only one who tells her about herself and fights back. My older bro- is completely emotionally detached, younger smokes weed to detach and father is a Fada. I love my Fada, but he is a weak, spineless Fada. I love him, but I am angry that he has saved his hide this whole time, to the demise of his children (even though he knows my mom's behavior doesn't make sense and isn't right). He does choose to stay. This weekend I have been sickened. For some reason all of the brutal incidents of my mother's rage returned to my memory. This coincides with her ramping up her behavior, because she is grieving. She is starting to lash out at everyone and I am just sick and damn tired of dealing with her. I am ready to cut her completely off. I am afraid though. I feel like I am standing on one foot at the top of a tiny peak of a mountain. She used to back hand me at will, hit me so hard as a child that my nose would bleed and even broke dishes on our heads. This is the woman I sickly/oddly love, but also dislike. No one understands why I am so weak/non-assertive, but it is because if I stood up to her I would get viciously beaten. I grew up just itching for the day when I could fight back and that day came. I tried to restrain myself, but then again I didn't. She did not ever hit me again after that day. Fighting parents is not ever condoned in my culture(but I don't care). Then the battle moved to pure mind control. Forget mind control - control. She then controlled me with chores and jealousy.   An ex-boyfriend of mine died a little over a year ago. I am still grieving him. I realized this weekend that he was competition for her. She treated him horribly when we dated. Horribly! She cussed him out at will and was just evil. I now believe she was afraid he would take me away. She was right. It is almost like every single piece to this puzzle slipped into place this weekend. I have always been too afraid to cut her off. I am going to review the site to determine what modes of boundary-filled communication exist. If I don't feel like any of them will work for me, it is time for me to move on. I feel like if I don't separate myself...I'll never grow into the woman I have always wanted to be. I kind of wish I could drop everything and just move away too. I am just afraid. Is there anyone out there with any thoughts? I have separated from her in the past, but I eventually reach out again out of guilt (because she calls sounding sad every day/even if I don't return calls) and she " hoovers " me right back in to enmeshment. ------------------------------------ **This group is based on principles in Randi Kreger's new book The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder: New Tips and Tools to Stop Walking on Eggshells, available at www.BPDCentral.com.** Problems? Write @.... DO NOT RESPOND ON THE LIST. To unsub from this list, send a blank email to WTOAdultChildren1-unsubscribe . Recommended: " Toxic Parents, " " Surviving a Borderline Parent, " and " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (hard to find) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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