Re: Walking Away.....to JOY

[Guest guest]

That is awesome, I am so happy for you! I can " hear " the joy in your post, you

sound like someone who has been chained in a dark dungeon finally set free and

walking out into the light. Its true, while our parents are still alive, we KOs

tend to hang desperately onto the hope that change for the nada or fada is

possible, but, each of us in our own way and our own time come to terms with

what the reality truly is in our situation.

I personally think you are right, and our society and culture and even our

genetic code have evolved to imprint and enforce loyalty to the family unit as a

sort of " prime directive " , but that cultural and biological encoding has never

taken mental illness into account.

The result is that basically, the children of the mentally ill are screwed,

particularly and especially when the mentally ill parent is high-functioning and

the abuse is covert. Ska-rewwwwed.

The biological and cultural imperative to give loyalty where none should be

given puts us in a life-long " no win " situation. Its like swimming up a

waterfall to overcome this marrow-bone-deep programming, but it can be done.

The only way I see out of this for us as a species is a fantasy or a dream at

this point in time, but it would be to (A) begin educating children about

" mental hygiene " , which means demonstrating to children in schoolroom classes

(in age-appropriate ways) what mentally healthy behaviors sound like and look

like as opposed to what mentally ill, abusive behaviors sound like and look like

( give minor children the same civil rights as adults, plus free and easy

access to lawyers empowered to represent the child's interests as though the

child is an adult, and © give the job of parenting very high status so that

potential parents are trained and evaluated for the job, tested, monitored, and

are regularly accountable to some kind of review board, similar to the

qualifying process that adoptive parents have to go through. Yes, this does

sound rather like a " Big Brother " scenario, and probably has as many down sides

to it as the current state of affairs, but, in my fantasy future the pendulum

has swung over to the children's corner, giving children greater power over

their own lives and futures.

Anyway, long ramble over now.

-Annie

>

> All,

> Both my NADA and FADA died just over a year ago. Just before my FADA died I

discovered this site and BPD - finally an answer for all of the craziness of so

many, many years. After much reading and finding this site I realized that

there is created a dynamic in a BPD " family " that affects everyone in the family

in one way or another. And I have found that in my experience, my siblings and

I were pitted against each other or shown favoring or painted black so that the

final outcome is that we can no longer even be there for each other during our

grieving.

>

> But in this last year I came to realize, that if I knew in my 20's what I know

now - I would walk away from my family and never look back. I would have become

an artist and expressed all the talent and creativity I have pent up in me; have

traveled a spiritual path of my choosing without shame; have expressed my

sexuality on my terms; and never felt a single bit of guilt for leaving.

>

> Spending a lifetime trying to " manage " a relationship with someone who does

not have the capacity to change out of some moral responsiblity of " doing the

right thing " was an incredible waste of a life - mine. If that person were

anyone but our NADA or FADA we would usher them out of our lives so fast and we

would never even consider inventing all the tricks and countermeasures and all

the other gyrations we go through to keep a relationship going that is deadly to

our Spirits. And there is no question that these people are so conniving, so

manipulative that they will find a way to go on with out you and get as much

victim mileage out of anyone they can about how awful you are.

>

> I guess what I am saying here is I read so much about how badly we all were

treated and so much about how so many are still trying to make some sort of

relationship with their NADA's. We get a lot of mileage out of telling our

stories about what NADA's done now....like it is any surprise she has pulled

some new manipulation our of her bag of tricks. And yet we are so proud when we

have created a bunch of new strategies for dealing with them

>

> It is all a colossal waste of time! It is like trying to manipulate and

change the hampster wheel while we are running on it. We are STILL running on

the damn wheel! Wasting our lives and energies on the damn wheel. GET OFF THE

WHEEL! GET OUT OF THE CAGE! SAVE YOURSELVES!

>

> We were all trapped by all that we have been trained to believe in our culture

about family and sticking by them and doing the right thing and being loyal and

loving our mothers. It is all bullshit when the mother is a NADA. They don't

deserve or warrant the title or the privileges and rights that come with it.

They might have birthed us, but that is were it ended.

>

> So where I am going here is if you know this truth about your NADA and you are

still young - get the hell away! Don't spend your time trying to work it out,

set boundaries, play against her game, and on and on. Don't expose your

children to this madness or the terrible distraction and anxiety it creates in

you robbing you and your children and your spouses' of YOUR joy! Cut them loose

and don't look back! Never regret your choice for your Spirit to soar - that

is, I believe, what the great God, Goddess, All There Is truly wants for us - to

soar with joy in our hearts.

>

> Since my NADA and FADA have passed, and I have finally moved out of total

despondency (I also lost my partner of 15 years and my job and spent two rounds

in the nut ward myself) - and with the help of my therapist, this board, The

Well of Mercy, and many other books and resources - I am finally going for all

those things that I didn't pursue because of the nagging from NADA and FADA

about how they weren't " practical " or a " waste of time " or blah blah blah - I am

drawing for the first time in my life, I am writing poetry for the first time in

my life, I am back studying the healing arts and work I abandoned years ago - I

am pursuing spirituality and am seeking a program of study that may lead to a

complete career change working serving others - something that has lain dormant

in my heart for so long.

>

> I am finally FREE! And I am unburdening myself of my siblings as well and

letting them find their own way. Is this selfish - you damn right it is! And I

deserve it - and my message is that SO DO YOU!

>

> And yes, we all need each other here to sort through the wreakage - to clean

out our houses and to re-create ourselves into who our Spirit longs to be - but

I would rather be helping each of you do that than to spend another second

trying to figure out what " NADA's " next move is going to be and how to avoid the

torpedo or put in enough sandbags and protections to keep from getting

annihilated.

>

> It was Doug who planted the seed in me when he said: It is finally over,

. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart. That simple statement shook my

from my grief into the realization that it WAS indeed, finally over and set me

on the path to discovering my own freedom. And yes, I have still had struggles.

The loneliness has been unbearable at times - and I have few skills to reach out

and make new friends - but I am trying - bit by bit.

>

> I know you will all do what ever you do - but think, please ask your self

before you go to battle with her again - do I really have to keep doing this?

What is the calling of my Spirit? Who am I really and is this the way I want to

live my days? What gifts are you keeping hidden from the world by spending

your precious time trying to clean up a mess that just self generates? Life is

so incredibly short.

>

> Love and Blessings to you all,

>

>

[Guest guest]

That is awesome, I am so happy for you! I can " hear " the joy in your post, you

sound like someone who has been chained in a dark dungeon finally set free and

walking out into the light. Its true, while our parents are still alive, we KOs

tend to hang desperately onto the hope that change for the nada or fada is

possible, but, each of us in our own way and our own time come to terms with

what the reality truly is in our situation.

I personally think you are right, and our society and culture and even our

genetic code have evolved to imprint and enforce loyalty to the family unit as a

sort of " prime directive " , but that cultural and biological encoding has never

taken mental illness into account.

The result is that basically, the children of the mentally ill are screwed,

particularly and especially when the mentally ill parent is high-functioning and

the abuse is covert. Ska-rewwwwed.

The biological and cultural imperative to give loyalty where none should be

given puts us in a life-long " no win " situation. Its like swimming up a

waterfall to overcome this marrow-bone-deep programming, but it can be done.

The only way I see out of this for us as a species is a fantasy or a dream at

this point in time, but it would be to (A) begin educating children about

" mental hygiene " , which means demonstrating to children in schoolroom classes

(in age-appropriate ways) what mentally healthy behaviors sound like and look

like as opposed to what mentally ill, abusive behaviors sound like and look like

( give minor children the same civil rights as adults, plus free and easy

access to lawyers empowered to represent the child's interests as though the

child is an adult, and © give the job of parenting very high status so that

potential parents are trained and evaluated for the job, tested, monitored, and

are regularly accountable to some kind of review board, similar to the

qualifying process that adoptive parents have to go through. Yes, this does

sound rather like a " Big Brother " scenario, and probably has as many down sides

to it as the current state of affairs, but, in my fantasy future the pendulum

has swung over to the children's corner, giving children greater power over

their own lives and futures.

Anyway, long ramble over now.

-Annie

>

> All,

> Both my NADA and FADA died just over a year ago. Just before my FADA died I

discovered this site and BPD - finally an answer for all of the craziness of so

many, many years. After much reading and finding this site I realized that

there is created a dynamic in a BPD " family " that affects everyone in the family

in one way or another. And I have found that in my experience, my siblings and

I were pitted against each other or shown favoring or painted black so that the

final outcome is that we can no longer even be there for each other during our

grieving.

>

> But in this last year I came to realize, that if I knew in my 20's what I know

now - I would walk away from my family and never look back. I would have become

an artist and expressed all the talent and creativity I have pent up in me; have

traveled a spiritual path of my choosing without shame; have expressed my

sexuality on my terms; and never felt a single bit of guilt for leaving.

>

> Spending a lifetime trying to " manage " a relationship with someone who does

not have the capacity to change out of some moral responsiblity of " doing the

right thing " was an incredible waste of a life - mine. If that person were

anyone but our NADA or FADA we would usher them out of our lives so fast and we

would never even consider inventing all the tricks and countermeasures and all

the other gyrations we go through to keep a relationship going that is deadly to

our Spirits. And there is no question that these people are so conniving, so

manipulative that they will find a way to go on with out you and get as much

victim mileage out of anyone they can about how awful you are.

>

> I guess what I am saying here is I read so much about how badly we all were

treated and so much about how so many are still trying to make some sort of

relationship with their NADA's. We get a lot of mileage out of telling our

stories about what NADA's done now....like it is any surprise she has pulled

some new manipulation our of her bag of tricks. And yet we are so proud when we

have created a bunch of new strategies for dealing with them

>

> It is all a colossal waste of time! It is like trying to manipulate and

change the hampster wheel while we are running on it. We are STILL running on

the damn wheel! Wasting our lives and energies on the damn wheel. GET OFF THE

WHEEL! GET OUT OF THE CAGE! SAVE YOURSELVES!

>

> We were all trapped by all that we have been trained to believe in our culture

about family and sticking by them and doing the right thing and being loyal and

loving our mothers. It is all bullshit when the mother is a NADA. They don't

deserve or warrant the title or the privileges and rights that come with it.

They might have birthed us, but that is were it ended.

>

> So where I am going here is if you know this truth about your NADA and you are

still young - get the hell away! Don't spend your time trying to work it out,

set boundaries, play against her game, and on and on. Don't expose your

children to this madness or the terrible distraction and anxiety it creates in

you robbing you and your children and your spouses' of YOUR joy! Cut them loose

and don't look back! Never regret your choice for your Spirit to soar - that

is, I believe, what the great God, Goddess, All There Is truly wants for us - to

soar with joy in our hearts.

>

> Since my NADA and FADA have passed, and I have finally moved out of total

despondency (I also lost my partner of 15 years and my job and spent two rounds

in the nut ward myself) - and with the help of my therapist, this board, The

Well of Mercy, and many other books and resources - I am finally going for all

those things that I didn't pursue because of the nagging from NADA and FADA

about how they weren't " practical " or a " waste of time " or blah blah blah - I am

drawing for the first time in my life, I am writing poetry for the first time in

my life, I am back studying the healing arts and work I abandoned years ago - I

am pursuing spirituality and am seeking a program of study that may lead to a

complete career change working serving others - something that has lain dormant

in my heart for so long.

>

> I am finally FREE! And I am unburdening myself of my siblings as well and

letting them find their own way. Is this selfish - you damn right it is! And I

deserve it - and my message is that SO DO YOU!

>

> And yes, we all need each other here to sort through the wreakage - to clean

out our houses and to re-create ourselves into who our Spirit longs to be - but

I would rather be helping each of you do that than to spend another second

trying to figure out what " NADA's " next move is going to be and how to avoid the

torpedo or put in enough sandbags and protections to keep from getting

annihilated.

>

> It was Doug who planted the seed in me when he said: It is finally over,

. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart. That simple statement shook my

from my grief into the realization that it WAS indeed, finally over and set me

on the path to discovering my own freedom. And yes, I have still had struggles.

The loneliness has been unbearable at times - and I have few skills to reach out

and make new friends - but I am trying - bit by bit.

>

> I know you will all do what ever you do - but think, please ask your self

before you go to battle with her again - do I really have to keep doing this?

What is the calling of my Spirit? Who am I really and is this the way I want to

live my days? What gifts are you keeping hidden from the world by spending

your precious time trying to clean up a mess that just self generates? Life is

so incredibly short.

>

> Love and Blessings to you all,

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Annie for sharing your thoughts. I like your protective services idea

around kids. I often wonder when we lived in tribes if the grandmothers and

grandfathers protected the children from this kind of behavior from the parents.

I wonder if such a thing as BPD even existed due to the kinds of socialization

in a tribal setting?

And yes, you right -everyone has to come to terms in there time - I just felt

that if I could spare one person, give one person the courage and hope to walk

away to freedom I would have made a difference.

It just seems such a waste of human energy - like throwing pennies into a sewer

- day after day. To actually free ones self of all of that emotional and

psychological burden. What could actually be possible. We have all of this

self help work that tells us how to keep interacting - doesn't seem any of them

tell you - get the hell away - it will NEVER change and only wear you down until

both of you are lost. Even psychologists and psychiatrists - trained

professionals can't work with BPD - they have no success other than basic

management - but most will tell you they will burn out and have to cut them

loose. Why do we think we can do any better because we are related to them by

blood?

Anyway, I thank you for your kindness and for sharing with me. I know you are a

frequent and respected participant on this board and it means a lot for you to

share with me.

Thanks,

> >

> > All,

> > Both my NADA and FADA died just over a year ago. Just before my FADA died I

discovered this site and BPD - finally an answer for all of the craziness of so

many, many years. After much reading and finding this site I realized that

there is created a dynamic in a BPD " family " that affects everyone in the family

in one way or another. And I have found that in my experience, my siblings and

I were pitted against each other or shown favoring or painted black so that the

final outcome is that we can no longer even be there for each other during our

grieving.

> >

> > But in this last year I came to realize, that if I knew in my 20's what I

know now - I would walk away from my family and never look back. I would have

become an artist and expressed all the talent and creativity I have pent up in

me; have traveled a spiritual path of my choosing without shame; have expressed

my sexuality on my terms; and never felt a single bit of guilt for leaving.

> >

> > Spending a lifetime trying to " manage " a relationship with someone who does

not have the capacity to change out of some moral responsiblity of " doing the

right thing " was an incredible waste of a life - mine. If that person were

anyone but our NADA or FADA we would usher them out of our lives so fast and we

would never even consider inventing all the tricks and countermeasures and all

the other gyrations we go through to keep a relationship going that is deadly to

our Spirits. And there is no question that these people are so conniving, so

manipulative that they will find a way to go on with out you and get as much

victim mileage out of anyone they can about how awful you are.

> >

> > I guess what I am saying here is I read so much about how badly we all were

treated and so much about how so many are still trying to make some sort of

relationship with their NADA's. We get a lot of mileage out of telling our

stories about what NADA's done now....like it is any surprise she has pulled

some new manipulation our of her bag of tricks. And yet we are so proud when we

have created a bunch of new strategies for dealing with them

> >

> > It is all a colossal waste of time! It is like trying to manipulate and

change the hampster wheel while we are running on it. We are STILL running on

the damn wheel! Wasting our lives and energies on the damn wheel. GET OFF THE

WHEEL! GET OUT OF THE CAGE! SAVE YOURSELVES!

> >

> > We were all trapped by all that we have been trained to believe in our

culture about family and sticking by them and doing the right thing and being

loyal and loving our mothers. It is all bullshit when the mother is a NADA.

They don't deserve or warrant the title or the privileges and rights that come

with it. They might have birthed us, but that is were it ended.

> >

> > So where I am going here is if you know this truth about your NADA and you

are still young - get the hell away! Don't spend your time trying to work it

out, set boundaries, play against her game, and on and on. Don't expose your

children to this madness or the terrible distraction and anxiety it creates in

you robbing you and your children and your spouses' of YOUR joy! Cut them loose

and don't look back! Never regret your choice for your Spirit to soar - that

is, I believe, what the great God, Goddess, All There Is truly wants for us - to

soar with joy in our hearts.

> >

> > Since my NADA and FADA have passed, and I have finally moved out of total

despondency (I also lost my partner of 15 years and my job and spent two rounds

in the nut ward myself) - and with the help of my therapist, this board, The

Well of Mercy, and many other books and resources - I am finally going for all

those things that I didn't pursue because of the nagging from NADA and FADA

about how they weren't " practical " or a " waste of time " or blah blah blah - I am

drawing for the first time in my life, I am writing poetry for the first time in

my life, I am back studying the healing arts and work I abandoned years ago - I

am pursuing spirituality and am seeking a program of study that may lead to a

complete career change working serving others - something that has lain dormant

in my heart for so long.

> >

> > I am finally FREE! And I am unburdening myself of my siblings as well and

letting them find their own way. Is this selfish - you damn right it is! And I

deserve it - and my message is that SO DO YOU!

> >

> > And yes, we all need each other here to sort through the wreakage - to clean

out our houses and to re-create ourselves into who our Spirit longs to be - but

I would rather be helping each of you do that than to spend another second

trying to figure out what " NADA's " next move is going to be and how to avoid the

torpedo or put in enough sandbags and protections to keep from getting

annihilated.

> >

> > It was Doug who planted the seed in me when he said: It is finally over,

. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart. That simple statement shook my

from my grief into the realization that it WAS indeed, finally over and set me

on the path to discovering my own freedom. And yes, I have still had struggles.

The loneliness has been unbearable at times - and I have few skills to reach out

and make new friends - but I am trying - bit by bit.

> >

> > I know you will all do what ever you do - but think, please ask your self

before you go to battle with her again - do I really have to keep doing this?

What is the calling of my Spirit? Who am I really and is this the way I want to

live my days? What gifts are you keeping hidden from the world by spending

your precious time trying to clean up a mess that just self generates? Life is

so incredibly short.

> >

> > Love and Blessings to you all,

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Annie for sharing your thoughts. I like your protective services idea

around kids. I often wonder when we lived in tribes if the grandmothers and

grandfathers protected the children from this kind of behavior from the parents.

I wonder if such a thing as BPD even existed due to the kinds of socialization

in a tribal setting?

And yes, you right -everyone has to come to terms in there time - I just felt

that if I could spare one person, give one person the courage and hope to walk

away to freedom I would have made a difference.

It just seems such a waste of human energy - like throwing pennies into a sewer

- day after day. To actually free ones self of all of that emotional and

psychological burden. What could actually be possible. We have all of this

self help work that tells us how to keep interacting - doesn't seem any of them

tell you - get the hell away - it will NEVER change and only wear you down until

both of you are lost. Even psychologists and psychiatrists - trained

professionals can't work with BPD - they have no success other than basic

management - but most will tell you they will burn out and have to cut them

loose. Why do we think we can do any better because we are related to them by

blood?

Anyway, I thank you for your kindness and for sharing with me. I know you are a

frequent and respected participant on this board and it means a lot for you to

share with me.

Thanks,

> >

> > All,

> > Both my NADA and FADA died just over a year ago. Just before my FADA died I

discovered this site and BPD - finally an answer for all of the craziness of so

many, many years. After much reading and finding this site I realized that

there is created a dynamic in a BPD " family " that affects everyone in the family

in one way or another. And I have found that in my experience, my siblings and

I were pitted against each other or shown favoring or painted black so that the

final outcome is that we can no longer even be there for each other during our

grieving.

> >

> > But in this last year I came to realize, that if I knew in my 20's what I

know now - I would walk away from my family and never look back. I would have

become an artist and expressed all the talent and creativity I have pent up in

me; have traveled a spiritual path of my choosing without shame; have expressed

my sexuality on my terms; and never felt a single bit of guilt for leaving.

> >

> > Spending a lifetime trying to " manage " a relationship with someone who does

not have the capacity to change out of some moral responsiblity of " doing the

right thing " was an incredible waste of a life - mine. If that person were

anyone but our NADA or FADA we would usher them out of our lives so fast and we

would never even consider inventing all the tricks and countermeasures and all

the other gyrations we go through to keep a relationship going that is deadly to

our Spirits. And there is no question that these people are so conniving, so

manipulative that they will find a way to go on with out you and get as much

victim mileage out of anyone they can about how awful you are.

> >

> > I guess what I am saying here is I read so much about how badly we all were

treated and so much about how so many are still trying to make some sort of

relationship with their NADA's. We get a lot of mileage out of telling our

stories about what NADA's done now....like it is any surprise she has pulled

some new manipulation our of her bag of tricks. And yet we are so proud when we

have created a bunch of new strategies for dealing with them

> >

> > It is all a colossal waste of time! It is like trying to manipulate and

change the hampster wheel while we are running on it. We are STILL running on

the damn wheel! Wasting our lives and energies on the damn wheel. GET OFF THE

WHEEL! GET OUT OF THE CAGE! SAVE YOURSELVES!

> >

> > We were all trapped by all that we have been trained to believe in our

culture about family and sticking by them and doing the right thing and being

loyal and loving our mothers. It is all bullshit when the mother is a NADA.

They don't deserve or warrant the title or the privileges and rights that come

with it. They might have birthed us, but that is were it ended.

> >

> > So where I am going here is if you know this truth about your NADA and you

are still young - get the hell away! Don't spend your time trying to work it

out, set boundaries, play against her game, and on and on. Don't expose your

children to this madness or the terrible distraction and anxiety it creates in

you robbing you and your children and your spouses' of YOUR joy! Cut them loose

and don't look back! Never regret your choice for your Spirit to soar - that

is, I believe, what the great God, Goddess, All There Is truly wants for us - to

soar with joy in our hearts.

> >

> > Since my NADA and FADA have passed, and I have finally moved out of total

despondency (I also lost my partner of 15 years and my job and spent two rounds

in the nut ward myself) - and with the help of my therapist, this board, The

Well of Mercy, and many other books and resources - I am finally going for all

those things that I didn't pursue because of the nagging from NADA and FADA

about how they weren't " practical " or a " waste of time " or blah blah blah - I am

drawing for the first time in my life, I am writing poetry for the first time in

my life, I am back studying the healing arts and work I abandoned years ago - I

am pursuing spirituality and am seeking a program of study that may lead to a

complete career change working serving others - something that has lain dormant

in my heart for so long.

> >

> > I am finally FREE! And I am unburdening myself of my siblings as well and

letting them find their own way. Is this selfish - you damn right it is! And I

deserve it - and my message is that SO DO YOU!

> >

> > And yes, we all need each other here to sort through the wreakage - to clean

out our houses and to re-create ourselves into who our Spirit longs to be - but

I would rather be helping each of you do that than to spend another second

trying to figure out what " NADA's " next move is going to be and how to avoid the

torpedo or put in enough sandbags and protections to keep from getting

annihilated.

> >

> > It was Doug who planted the seed in me when he said: It is finally over,

. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart. That simple statement shook my

from my grief into the realization that it WAS indeed, finally over and set me

on the path to discovering my own freedom. And yes, I have still had struggles.

The loneliness has been unbearable at times - and I have few skills to reach out

and make new friends - but I am trying - bit by bit.

> >

> > I know you will all do what ever you do - but think, please ask your self

before you go to battle with her again - do I really have to keep doing this?

What is the calling of my Spirit? Who am I really and is this the way I want to

live my days? What gifts are you keeping hidden from the world by spending

your precious time trying to clean up a mess that just self generates? Life is

so incredibly short.

> >

> > Love and Blessings to you all,

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

What an awesome post!

I've done this with my mother, walked away...and now I'm getting ready to do

this with my father (NPD married to a destructive BPD). I feel so positive about

the move, knowing what needs to be done.

Reading this reminds me why I need to do it.

>

> All,

> Both my NADA and FADA died just over a year ago. Just before my FADA died I

discovered this site and BPD - finally an answer for all of the craziness of so

many, many years. After much reading and finding this site I realized that

there is created a dynamic in a BPD " family " that affects everyone in the family

in one way or another. And I have found that in my experience, my siblings and

I were pitted against each other or shown favoring or painted black so that the

final outcome is that we can no longer even be there for each other during our

grieving.

>

> But in this last year I came to realize, that if I knew in my 20's what I know

now - I would walk away from my family and never look back. I would have become

an artist and expressed all the talent and creativity I have pent up in me; have

traveled a spiritual path of my choosing without shame; have expressed my

sexuality on my terms; and never felt a single bit of guilt for leaving.

>

> Spending a lifetime trying to " manage " a relationship with someone who does

not have the capacity to change out of some moral responsiblity of " doing the

right thing " was an incredible waste of a life - mine. If that person were

anyone but our NADA or FADA we would usher them out of our lives so fast and we

would never even consider inventing all the tricks and countermeasures and all

the other gyrations we go through to keep a relationship going that is deadly to

our Spirits. And there is no question that these people are so conniving, so

manipulative that they will find a way to go on with out you and get as much

victim mileage out of anyone they can about how awful you are.

>

> I guess what I am saying here is I read so much about how badly we all were

treated and so much about how so many are still trying to make some sort of

relationship with their NADA's. We get a lot of mileage out of telling our

stories about what NADA's done now....like it is any surprise she has pulled

some new manipulation our of her bag of tricks. And yet we are so proud when we

have created a bunch of new strategies for dealing with them

>

> It is all a colossal waste of time! It is like trying to manipulate and

change the hampster wheel while we are running on it. We are STILL running on

the damn wheel! Wasting our lives and energies on the damn wheel. GET OFF THE

WHEEL! GET OUT OF THE CAGE! SAVE YOURSELVES!

>

> We were all trapped by all that we have been trained to believe in our culture

about family and sticking by them and doing the right thing and being loyal and

loving our mothers. It is all bullshit when the mother is a NADA. They don't

deserve or warrant the title or the privileges and rights that come with it.

They might have birthed us, but that is were it ended.

>

> So where I am going here is if you know this truth about your NADA and you are

still young - get the hell away! Don't spend your time trying to work it out,

set boundaries, play against her game, and on and on. Don't expose your

children to this madness or the terrible distraction and anxiety it creates in

you robbing you and your children and your spouses' of YOUR joy! Cut them loose

and don't look back! Never regret your choice for your Spirit to soar - that

is, I believe, what the great God, Goddess, All There Is truly wants for us - to

soar with joy in our hearts.

>

> Since my NADA and FADA have passed, and I have finally moved out of total

despondency (I also lost my partner of 15 years and my job and spent two rounds

in the nut ward myself) - and with the help of my therapist, this board, The

Well of Mercy, and many other books and resources - I am finally going for all

those things that I didn't pursue because of the nagging from NADA and FADA

about how they weren't " practical " or a " waste of time " or blah blah blah - I am

drawing for the first time in my life, I am writing poetry for the first time in

my life, I am back studying the healing arts and work I abandoned years ago - I

am pursuing spirituality and am seeking a program of study that may lead to a

complete career change working serving others - something that has lain dormant

in my heart for so long.

>

> I am finally FREE! And I am unburdening myself of my siblings as well and

letting them find their own way. Is this selfish - you damn right it is! And I

deserve it - and my message is that SO DO YOU!

>

> And yes, we all need each other here to sort through the wreakage - to clean

out our houses and to re-create ourselves into who our Spirit longs to be - but

I would rather be helping each of you do that than to spend another second

trying to figure out what " NADA's " next move is going to be and how to avoid the

torpedo or put in enough sandbags and protections to keep from getting

annihilated.

>

> It was Doug who planted the seed in me when he said: It is finally over,

. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart. That simple statement shook my

from my grief into the realization that it WAS indeed, finally over and set me

on the path to discovering my own freedom. And yes, I have still had struggles.

The loneliness has been unbearable at times - and I have few skills to reach out

and make new friends - but I am trying - bit by bit.

>

> I know you will all do what ever you do - but think, please ask your self

before you go to battle with her again - do I really have to keep doing this?

What is the calling of my Spirit? Who am I really and is this the way I want to

live my days? What gifts are you keeping hidden from the world by spending

your precious time trying to clean up a mess that just self generates? Life is

so incredibly short.

>

> Love and Blessings to you all,

>

>

[Guest guest]

What an awesome post!

I've done this with my mother, walked away...and now I'm getting ready to do

this with my father (NPD married to a destructive BPD). I feel so positive about

the move, knowing what needs to be done.

Reading this reminds me why I need to do it.

>

> All,

> Both my NADA and FADA died just over a year ago. Just before my FADA died I

discovered this site and BPD - finally an answer for all of the craziness of so

many, many years. After much reading and finding this site I realized that

there is created a dynamic in a BPD " family " that affects everyone in the family

in one way or another. And I have found that in my experience, my siblings and

I were pitted against each other or shown favoring or painted black so that the

final outcome is that we can no longer even be there for each other during our

grieving.

>

> But in this last year I came to realize, that if I knew in my 20's what I know

now - I would walk away from my family and never look back. I would have become

an artist and expressed all the talent and creativity I have pent up in me; have

traveled a spiritual path of my choosing without shame; have expressed my

sexuality on my terms; and never felt a single bit of guilt for leaving.

>

> Spending a lifetime trying to " manage " a relationship with someone who does

not have the capacity to change out of some moral responsiblity of " doing the

right thing " was an incredible waste of a life - mine. If that person were

anyone but our NADA or FADA we would usher them out of our lives so fast and we

would never even consider inventing all the tricks and countermeasures and all

the other gyrations we go through to keep a relationship going that is deadly to

our Spirits. And there is no question that these people are so conniving, so

manipulative that they will find a way to go on with out you and get as much

victim mileage out of anyone they can about how awful you are.

>

> I guess what I am saying here is I read so much about how badly we all were

treated and so much about how so many are still trying to make some sort of

relationship with their NADA's. We get a lot of mileage out of telling our

stories about what NADA's done now....like it is any surprise she has pulled

some new manipulation our of her bag of tricks. And yet we are so proud when we

have created a bunch of new strategies for dealing with them

>

> It is all a colossal waste of time! It is like trying to manipulate and

change the hampster wheel while we are running on it. We are STILL running on

the damn wheel! Wasting our lives and energies on the damn wheel. GET OFF THE

WHEEL! GET OUT OF THE CAGE! SAVE YOURSELVES!

>

> We were all trapped by all that we have been trained to believe in our culture

about family and sticking by them and doing the right thing and being loyal and

loving our mothers. It is all bullshit when the mother is a NADA. They don't

deserve or warrant the title or the privileges and rights that come with it.

They might have birthed us, but that is were it ended.

>

> So where I am going here is if you know this truth about your NADA and you are

still young - get the hell away! Don't spend your time trying to work it out,

set boundaries, play against her game, and on and on. Don't expose your

children to this madness or the terrible distraction and anxiety it creates in

you robbing you and your children and your spouses' of YOUR joy! Cut them loose

and don't look back! Never regret your choice for your Spirit to soar - that

is, I believe, what the great God, Goddess, All There Is truly wants for us - to

soar with joy in our hearts.

>

> Since my NADA and FADA have passed, and I have finally moved out of total

despondency (I also lost my partner of 15 years and my job and spent two rounds

in the nut ward myself) - and with the help of my therapist, this board, The

Well of Mercy, and many other books and resources - I am finally going for all

those things that I didn't pursue because of the nagging from NADA and FADA

about how they weren't " practical " or a " waste of time " or blah blah blah - I am

drawing for the first time in my life, I am writing poetry for the first time in

my life, I am back studying the healing arts and work I abandoned years ago - I

am pursuing spirituality and am seeking a program of study that may lead to a

complete career change working serving others - something that has lain dormant

in my heart for so long.

>

> I am finally FREE! And I am unburdening myself of my siblings as well and

letting them find their own way. Is this selfish - you damn right it is! And I

deserve it - and my message is that SO DO YOU!

>

> And yes, we all need each other here to sort through the wreakage - to clean

out our houses and to re-create ourselves into who our Spirit longs to be - but

I would rather be helping each of you do that than to spend another second

trying to figure out what " NADA's " next move is going to be and how to avoid the

torpedo or put in enough sandbags and protections to keep from getting

annihilated.

>

> It was Doug who planted the seed in me when he said: It is finally over,

. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart. That simple statement shook my

from my grief into the realization that it WAS indeed, finally over and set me

on the path to discovering my own freedom. And yes, I have still had struggles.

The loneliness has been unbearable at times - and I have few skills to reach out

and make new friends - but I am trying - bit by bit.

>

> I know you will all do what ever you do - but think, please ask your self

before you go to battle with her again - do I really have to keep doing this?

What is the calling of my Spirit? Who am I really and is this the way I want to

live my days? What gifts are you keeping hidden from the world by spending

your precious time trying to clean up a mess that just self generates? Life is

so incredibly short.

>

> Love and Blessings to you all,

>

>

[Guest guest]

What an awesome post!

I've done this with my mother, walked away...and now I'm getting ready to do

this with my father (NPD married to a destructive BPD). I feel so positive about

the move, knowing what needs to be done.

Reading this reminds me why I need to do it.

>

> All,

> Both my NADA and FADA died just over a year ago. Just before my FADA died I

discovered this site and BPD - finally an answer for all of the craziness of so

many, many years. After much reading and finding this site I realized that

there is created a dynamic in a BPD " family " that affects everyone in the family

in one way or another. And I have found that in my experience, my siblings and

I were pitted against each other or shown favoring or painted black so that the

final outcome is that we can no longer even be there for each other during our

grieving.

>

> But in this last year I came to realize, that if I knew in my 20's what I know

now - I would walk away from my family and never look back. I would have become

an artist and expressed all the talent and creativity I have pent up in me; have

traveled a spiritual path of my choosing without shame; have expressed my

sexuality on my terms; and never felt a single bit of guilt for leaving.

>

> Spending a lifetime trying to " manage " a relationship with someone who does

not have the capacity to change out of some moral responsiblity of " doing the

right thing " was an incredible waste of a life - mine. If that person were

anyone but our NADA or FADA we would usher them out of our lives so fast and we

would never even consider inventing all the tricks and countermeasures and all

the other gyrations we go through to keep a relationship going that is deadly to

our Spirits. And there is no question that these people are so conniving, so

manipulative that they will find a way to go on with out you and get as much

victim mileage out of anyone they can about how awful you are.

>

> I guess what I am saying here is I read so much about how badly we all were

treated and so much about how so many are still trying to make some sort of

relationship with their NADA's. We get a lot of mileage out of telling our

stories about what NADA's done now....like it is any surprise she has pulled

some new manipulation our of her bag of tricks. And yet we are so proud when we

have created a bunch of new strategies for dealing with them

>

> It is all a colossal waste of time! It is like trying to manipulate and

change the hampster wheel while we are running on it. We are STILL running on

the damn wheel! Wasting our lives and energies on the damn wheel. GET OFF THE

WHEEL! GET OUT OF THE CAGE! SAVE YOURSELVES!

>

> We were all trapped by all that we have been trained to believe in our culture

about family and sticking by them and doing the right thing and being loyal and

loving our mothers. It is all bullshit when the mother is a NADA. They don't

deserve or warrant the title or the privileges and rights that come with it.

They might have birthed us, but that is were it ended.

>

> So where I am going here is if you know this truth about your NADA and you are

still young - get the hell away! Don't spend your time trying to work it out,

set boundaries, play against her game, and on and on. Don't expose your

children to this madness or the terrible distraction and anxiety it creates in

you robbing you and your children and your spouses' of YOUR joy! Cut them loose

and don't look back! Never regret your choice for your Spirit to soar - that

is, I believe, what the great God, Goddess, All There Is truly wants for us - to

soar with joy in our hearts.

>

> Since my NADA and FADA have passed, and I have finally moved out of total

despondency (I also lost my partner of 15 years and my job and spent two rounds

in the nut ward myself) - and with the help of my therapist, this board, The

Well of Mercy, and many other books and resources - I am finally going for all

those things that I didn't pursue because of the nagging from NADA and FADA

about how they weren't " practical " or a " waste of time " or blah blah blah - I am

drawing for the first time in my life, I am writing poetry for the first time in

my life, I am back studying the healing arts and work I abandoned years ago - I

am pursuing spirituality and am seeking a program of study that may lead to a

complete career change working serving others - something that has lain dormant

in my heart for so long.

>

> I am finally FREE! And I am unburdening myself of my siblings as well and

letting them find their own way. Is this selfish - you damn right it is! And I

deserve it - and my message is that SO DO YOU!

>

> And yes, we all need each other here to sort through the wreakage - to clean

out our houses and to re-create ourselves into who our Spirit longs to be - but

I would rather be helping each of you do that than to spend another second

trying to figure out what " NADA's " next move is going to be and how to avoid the

torpedo or put in enough sandbags and protections to keep from getting

annihilated.

>

> It was Doug who planted the seed in me when he said: It is finally over,

. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart. That simple statement shook my

from my grief into the realization that it WAS indeed, finally over and set me

on the path to discovering my own freedom. And yes, I have still had struggles.

The loneliness has been unbearable at times - and I have few skills to reach out

and make new friends - but I am trying - bit by bit.

>

> I know you will all do what ever you do - but think, please ask your self

before you go to battle with her again - do I really have to keep doing this?

What is the calling of my Spirit? Who am I really and is this the way I want to

live my days? What gifts are you keeping hidden from the world by spending

your precious time trying to clean up a mess that just self generates? Life is

so incredibly short.

>

> Love and Blessings to you all,

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I am really glad you shared your experience of walking away toward joy with us

here; I think it truly will contribute hope and courage to other, younger KOs in

the same position. I wish I'd had such encouragement and understanding as a

younger person.

You wrote: " We have all of this self-help work that tells us how to keep

interacting - doesn't seem any of them tell you - get the hell away - it will

NEVER change and only wear you down until both of you are lost. " And I think

you have spotlighted the most crucial aspect of the whole bpd parent/non-child

issue.

You are so right: the children of the personality-disordered are held to an

astonishingly unfair double standard.

For God knows what reason, the children of the mentally ill are encouraged and

even *pressured* to remain attached, supportive, and available to someone who

has been and continues to be abusive to him or her... for life!

The staggering incongruity of this expectation is obvious when *the same abusive

behaviors* are being inflicted by a husband (or wife) against their *spouse.*

THEN, oh, how the non-spouse is encouraged, urged and even *assisted* to escape

from the abusive relationship for the sake of their own mental and even physical

safety.

But not the children of the personality-disordered.

The victims of sexual incest or rape are not pressured/guilted/shamed into

remaining in contact with their abuser because " After all, he's your

F-a-a-a-t-h-e-r. "

Yet the relentless psychological abuse that the children of the

personality-disordered experience throughout their formative years and even into

their adult years is a kind of emotional rape. But instead of understanding,

encouragement and assistance in getting away, though, we hear " But after all,

she's your M-o-t-t-h-h-e-r-r-r. "

Also I think those are very interesting questions you ask. Is personality

disorder a modern development? Does a fragmented modern industrial society

(nuclear family living apart from extended family) allow personality disorder to

" fly under the radar " , or not? In close-knit cultures or tribal cultures where

extended families traditionally live with or near each other and often work

closely together, does the presence of grandparents and other extended family

provide a safety net for children when mental illness appears in such a tribal

unit? Or not?

Thank you, too.

-Annie

>

> Thanks, Annie for sharing your thoughts. I like your protective services idea

around kids. I often wonder when we lived in tribes if the grandmothers and

grandfathers protected the children from this kind of behavior from the parents.

I wonder if such a thing as BPD even existed due to the kinds of socialization

in a tribal setting?

>

> And yes, you right -everyone has to come to terms in there time - I just felt

that if I could spare one person, give one person the courage and hope to walk

away to freedom I would have made a difference.

>

> It just seems such a waste of human energy - like throwing pennies into a

sewer - day after day. To actually free ones self of all of that emotional and

psychological burden. What could actually be possible. We have all of this

self help work that tells us how to keep interacting - doesn't seem any of them

tell you - get the hell away - it will NEVER change and only wear you down until

both of you are lost. Even psychologists and psychiatrists - trained

professionals can't work with BPD - they have no success other than basic

management - but most will tell you they will burn out and have to cut them

loose. Why do we think we can do any better because we are related to them by

blood?

>

> Anyway, I thank you for your kindness and for sharing with me. I know you are

a frequent and respected participant on this board and it means a lot for you to

share with me.

> Thanks,

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I am really glad you shared your experience of walking away toward joy with us

here; I think it truly will contribute hope and courage to other, younger KOs in

the same position. I wish I'd had such encouragement and understanding as a

younger person.

You wrote: " We have all of this self-help work that tells us how to keep

interacting - doesn't seem any of them tell you - get the hell away - it will

NEVER change and only wear you down until both of you are lost. " And I think

you have spotlighted the most crucial aspect of the whole bpd parent/non-child

issue.

You are so right: the children of the personality-disordered are held to an

astonishingly unfair double standard.

For God knows what reason, the children of the mentally ill are encouraged and

even *pressured* to remain attached, supportive, and available to someone who

has been and continues to be abusive to him or her... for life!

The staggering incongruity of this expectation is obvious when *the same abusive

behaviors* are being inflicted by a husband (or wife) against their *spouse.*

THEN, oh, how the non-spouse is encouraged, urged and even *assisted* to escape

from the abusive relationship for the sake of their own mental and even physical

safety.

But not the children of the personality-disordered.

The victims of sexual incest or rape are not pressured/guilted/shamed into

remaining in contact with their abuser because " After all, he's your

F-a-a-a-t-h-e-r. "

Yet the relentless psychological abuse that the children of the

personality-disordered experience throughout their formative years and even into

their adult years is a kind of emotional rape. But instead of understanding,

encouragement and assistance in getting away, though, we hear " But after all,

she's your M-o-t-t-h-h-e-r-r-r. "

Also I think those are very interesting questions you ask. Is personality

disorder a modern development? Does a fragmented modern industrial society

(nuclear family living apart from extended family) allow personality disorder to

" fly under the radar " , or not? In close-knit cultures or tribal cultures where

extended families traditionally live with or near each other and often work

closely together, does the presence of grandparents and other extended family

provide a safety net for children when mental illness appears in such a tribal

unit? Or not?

Thank you, too.

-Annie

>

> Thanks, Annie for sharing your thoughts. I like your protective services idea

around kids. I often wonder when we lived in tribes if the grandmothers and

grandfathers protected the children from this kind of behavior from the parents.

I wonder if such a thing as BPD even existed due to the kinds of socialization

in a tribal setting?

>

> And yes, you right -everyone has to come to terms in there time - I just felt

that if I could spare one person, give one person the courage and hope to walk

away to freedom I would have made a difference.

>

> It just seems such a waste of human energy - like throwing pennies into a

sewer - day after day. To actually free ones self of all of that emotional and

psychological burden. What could actually be possible. We have all of this

self help work that tells us how to keep interacting - doesn't seem any of them

tell you - get the hell away - it will NEVER change and only wear you down until

both of you are lost. Even psychologists and psychiatrists - trained

professionals can't work with BPD - they have no success other than basic

management - but most will tell you they will burn out and have to cut them

loose. Why do we think we can do any better because we are related to them by

blood?

>

> Anyway, I thank you for your kindness and for sharing with me. I know you are

a frequent and respected participant on this board and it means a lot for you to

share with me.

> Thanks,

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your response. I think we have to do more support of getting away

from them for our own survival.

Hang in there!

> >

> > All,

> > Both my NADA and FADA died just over a year ago. Just before my FADA died I

discovered this site and BPD - finally an answer for all of the craziness of so

many, many years. After much reading and finding this site I realized that

there is created a dynamic in a BPD " family " that affects everyone in the family

in one way or another. And I have found that in my experience, my siblings and

I were pitted against each other or shown favoring or painted black so that the

final outcome is that we can no longer even be there for each other during our

grieving.

> >

> > But in this last year I came to realize, that if I knew in my 20's what I

know now - I would walk away from my family and never look back. I would have

become an artist and expressed all the talent and creativity I have pent up in

me; have traveled a spiritual path of my choosing without shame; have expressed

my sexuality on my terms; and never felt a single bit of guilt for leaving.

> >

> > Spending a lifetime trying to " manage " a relationship with someone who does

not have the capacity to change out of some moral responsiblity of " doing the

right thing " was an incredible waste of a life - mine. If that person were

anyone but our NADA or FADA we would usher them out of our lives so fast and we

would never even consider inventing all the tricks and countermeasures and all

the other gyrations we go through to keep a relationship going that is deadly to

our Spirits. And there is no question that these people are so conniving, so

manipulative that they will find a way to go on with out you and get as much

victim mileage out of anyone they can about how awful you are.

> >

> > I guess what I am saying here is I read so much about how badly we all were

treated and so much about how so many are still trying to make some sort of

relationship with their NADA's. We get a lot of mileage out of telling our

stories about what NADA's done now....like it is any surprise she has pulled

some new manipulation our of her bag of tricks. And yet we are so proud when we

have created a bunch of new strategies for dealing with them

> >

> > It is all a colossal waste of time! It is like trying to manipulate and

change the hampster wheel while we are running on it. We are STILL running on

the damn wheel! Wasting our lives and energies on the damn wheel. GET OFF THE

WHEEL! GET OUT OF THE CAGE! SAVE YOURSELVES!

> >

> > We were all trapped by all that we have been trained to believe in our

culture about family and sticking by them and doing the right thing and being

loyal and loving our mothers. It is all bullshit when the mother is a NADA.

They don't deserve or warrant the title or the privileges and rights that come

with it. They might have birthed us, but that is were it ended.

> >

> > So where I am going here is if you know this truth about your NADA and you

are still young - get the hell away! Don't spend your time trying to work it

out, set boundaries, play against her game, and on and on. Don't expose your

children to this madness or the terrible distraction and anxiety it creates in

you robbing you and your children and your spouses' of YOUR joy! Cut them loose

and don't look back! Never regret your choice for your Spirit to soar - that

is, I believe, what the great God, Goddess, All There Is truly wants for us - to

soar with joy in our hearts.

> >

> > Since my NADA and FADA have passed, and I have finally moved out of total

despondency (I also lost my partner of 15 years and my job and spent two rounds

in the nut ward myself) - and with the help of my therapist, this board, The

Well of Mercy, and many other books and resources - I am finally going for all

those things that I didn't pursue because of the nagging from NADA and FADA

about how they weren't " practical " or a " waste of time " or blah blah blah - I am

drawing for the first time in my life, I am writing poetry for the first time in

my life, I am back studying the healing arts and work I abandoned years ago - I

am pursuing spirituality and am seeking a program of study that may lead to a

complete career change working serving others - something that has lain dormant

in my heart for so long.

> >

> > I am finally FREE! And I am unburdening myself of my siblings as well and

letting them find their own way. Is this selfish - you damn right it is! And I

deserve it - and my message is that SO DO YOU!

> >

> > And yes, we all need each other here to sort through the wreakage - to clean

out our houses and to re-create ourselves into who our Spirit longs to be - but

I would rather be helping each of you do that than to spend another second

trying to figure out what " NADA's " next move is going to be and how to avoid the

torpedo or put in enough sandbags and protections to keep from getting

annihilated.

> >

> > It was Doug who planted the seed in me when he said: It is finally over,

. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart. That simple statement shook my

from my grief into the realization that it WAS indeed, finally over and set me

on the path to discovering my own freedom. And yes, I have still had struggles.

The loneliness has been unbearable at times - and I have few skills to reach out

and make new friends - but I am trying - bit by bit.

> >

> > I know you will all do what ever you do - but think, please ask your self

before you go to battle with her again - do I really have to keep doing this?

What is the calling of my Spirit? Who am I really and is this the way I want to

live my days? What gifts are you keeping hidden from the world by spending

your precious time trying to clean up a mess that just self generates? Life is

so incredibly short.

> >

> > Love and Blessings to you all,

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Oh, God, Annie - you hit the nail on the head! So many times I've read here how

institutions have brow beat the kids when dealing with a PD parent! It is

horrifying the way they take the side of the sick parent. But if that parent

had torched the children with gasoline - whole different story! Well, my soul

was torched! Guess cause you can't see the scars, they think there aren't any.

Not every parent deserves the title of Mother or Father nor the respect or

privilege that goes with it.

Thanks for your posting. It was illuminating!

> >

> > Thanks, Annie for sharing your thoughts. I like your protective services

idea around kids. I often wonder when we lived in tribes if the grandmothers

and grandfathers protected the children from this kind of behavior from the

parents. I wonder if such a thing as BPD even existed due to the kinds of

socialization in a tribal setting?

> >

> > And yes, you right -everyone has to come to terms in there time - I just

felt that if I could spare one person, give one person the courage and hope to

walk away to freedom I would have made a difference.

> >

> > It just seems such a waste of human energy - like throwing pennies into a

sewer - day after day. To actually free ones self of all of that emotional and

psychological burden. What could actually be possible. We have all of this

self help work that tells us how to keep interacting - doesn't seem any of them

tell you - get the hell away - it will NEVER change and only wear you down until

both of you are lost. Even psychologists and psychiatrists - trained

professionals can't work with BPD - they have no success other than basic

management - but most will tell you they will burn out and have to cut them

loose. Why do we think we can do any better because we are related to them by

blood?

> >

> > Anyway, I thank you for your kindness and for sharing with me. I know you

are a frequent and respected participant on this board and it means a lot for

you to share with me.

> > Thanks,

> >

>