Guest guest Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 The way I read that abstract, they saw shrinkage in some areas of the brain. It doesn't say anything about whether the shrinkage is the cause or the effect of having BPD. Do parts of their brain shrink because they don't put them to good use, are their behavioral issues caused by starting life with brain structure differences, or is something else causing the brain structure changes as they age, resulting in increased symptoms? My own opinion is that most people who have BPD are either born with it or with a susceptibility to developing it. Extreme trauma while growing up may have similar results but I don't think that explains most cases of BPD. However it happens, I don't believe they choose to have BPD. As for whether or not to hold them accountable, I think that worrying about that just leads to prolonging the emotional pain of dealing with them without changing anything for the better. The way I see it, they have the ability to make choices, but their ability to make the right choices is broken. The saying about computer data - " Garbage in, garbage out " seems to apply. Their emotions feed garbage in to their brain, causing garbage to come back out in the form of aggressive and nasty responses. The more emotional they get, the more garbage is fed in. So on one level you can blame them for their individual choices, but on another you can't blame them for having BPD to start with. People with brain deficits of various sorts can and do learn to work around their deficits with a lot of work and training. The few people who actually seek and get treatment for BPD show that they can learn to do a lot better than most of our nadas and fadas do. The fact that I seem to have trained my nada to behave much better when she's with me also points towards at least some of them being able to learn to make better choices. I harbor no illusions that my nada understands why it is wrong to do and say certain things, but she has learned not to do and say them around me. That feels like training a pet. My cats don't understand why they should stay off the kitchen counters, but they understand that they will be punished if I catch them there. At 01:52 PM 01/01/2011 climberkayak wrote: > " Reduced anterior and posterior cingulate gray matter in >borderline personality disorder. " > >From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861 > > >If it really were all due to brain structure abnormalities that >makes it even trickier for me to approach the issues with my >nada as a KO especially re forgiveness. I mean does she really >know not what she does? The cingulate gyrus: > > * Coordinates Sensory Input With Emotions > > * Emotional Responses to Pain > > * Regulates Aggressive Behavior >http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm > > >And that's what they do....their emotions are out of whack, >they can't handle the smallest amount of emotional pain without >aggression being triggered. And yet, most can put on a good >face in public so some control is possible so then do we hold >them accountable? > > -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 I'm not positive about this but I think the subjects of the studies showing that bpd behaviors improve with age are only the low-functioning bpds who engage in suicidal behaviors and wind up under psychiatric care in residential treatment centers. According to Randi Kreger, high-functioning bpds like my nada are virtually invisible to the psychiatric community; no studies are done on the high-functioning ones because they do not seek treatment. So they're not even counted in the estimated statistics of the percentage of the population that has bpd. -Annie > > > > " Reduced anterior and posterior cingulate gray matter in borderline > personality disorder. " > > > > From: _http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861_ > (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861) > > > > > > If it really were all due to brain structure abnormalities that makes it > even trickier for me to approach the issues with my nada as a KO > especially re forgiveness. I mean does she really know not what she does? The > cingulate gyrus: > > > > * Coordinates Sensory Input With Emotions > > > > * Emotional Responses to Pain > > > > * Regulates Aggressive Behavior > > _http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm_ > (http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm) > > > > > > And that's what they do....their emotions are out of whack, they can't > handle the smallest amount of emotional pain without aggression being > triggered. And yet, most can put on a good face in public so some control is > possible so then do we hold them accountable? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 That's a scary thought, but makes sense. My mother sought temporary treatment when I was about 12, but it was one of those hidden secrets and she went to a therapist all of a few months. I really don't think it qualifies, but I often wondered what in the world she told that man. I think the high functioning bpds can easily manipulate even medical professionals on a short-term basis and unless they admit they have issues and want to get well, they just continue to torture their children in the secrecy of home. In a message dated 1/1/2011 3:25:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, anuria-67854@... writes: I'm not positive about this but I think the subjects of the studies showing that bpd behaviors improve with age are only the low-functioning bpds who engage in suicidal behaviors and wind up under psychiatric care in residential treatment centers. According to Randi Kreger, high-functioning bpds like my nada are virtually invisible to the psychiatric community; no studies are done on the high-functioning ones because they do not seek treatment. So they're not even counted in the estimated statistics of the percentage of the population that has bpd. -Annie > > > > " Reduced anterior and posterior cingulate gray matter in borderline > personality disorder. " > > > > From: __http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861__'>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861__ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861_) > (_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861_ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861) ) > > > > > > If it really were all due to brain structure abnormalities that makes it > even trickier for me to approach the issues with my nada as a KO > especially re forgiveness. I mean does she really know not what she does? The > cingulate gyrus: > > > > * Coordinates Sensory Input With Emotions > > > > * Emotional Responses to Pain > > > > * Regulates Aggressive Behavior > > __http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm__'>http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm__ (http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm_) > (_http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm_ (http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm) ) > > > > > > And that's what they do....their emotions are out of whack, they can't > handle the smallest amount of emotional pain without aggression being > triggered. And yet, most can put on a good face in public so some control is > possible so then do we hold them accountable? > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 I agree. That's similar to what happened with my nada, back when I was in my mid-twenties and no longer lived with nada and dad. My younger Sister was still living with the parents at the time, but she only shared this incident with me, like, decades later. One day mom almost literally dragged our dad with her to a marriage counselor to " straighten him out about a few things. " At the end of their one and only session, apparently the counselor said that he thought that nada had something called " borderline personality disorder " and suggested that nada seek individual treatment with a psychologist. Sister said that when nada and dad got back home, nada was bat-s**t ballistic for the rest of the day, calling the counselor " an idiot " and saying he didn't know what he was talking about, there was nothing wrong with nada, its was all dad's fault, etc., etc. -Annie > > > > > > " Reduced anterior and posterior cingulate gray matter in borderline > > personality disorder. " > > > > > > From: __http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861__'>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861__ > (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861_) > > (_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861_ > (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861) ) > > > > > > > > > If it really were all due to brain structure abnormalities that makes > it > > even trickier for me to approach the issues with my nada as a KO > > especially re forgiveness. I mean does she really know not what she > does? The > > cingulate gyrus: > > > > > > * Coordinates Sensory Input With Emotions > > > > > > * Emotional Responses to Pain > > > > > > * Regulates Aggressive Behavior > > > __http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm__'>http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm__ > (http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm_) > > (_http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm_ > (http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm) ) > > > > > > > > > And that's what they do....their emotions are out of whack, they can't > > handle the smallest amount of emotional pain without aggression being > > triggered. And yet, most can put on a good face in public so some > control is > > possible so then do we hold them accountable? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 I agree. That's similar to what happened with my nada, back when I was in my mid-twenties and no longer lived with nada and dad. My younger Sister was still living with the parents at the time, but she only shared this incident with me, like, decades later. One day mom almost literally dragged our dad with her to a marriage counselor to " straighten him out about a few things. " At the end of their one and only session, apparently the counselor said that he thought that nada had something called " borderline personality disorder " and suggested that nada seek individual treatment with a psychologist. Sister said that when nada and dad got back home, nada was bat-s**t ballistic for the rest of the day, calling the counselor " an idiot " and saying he didn't know what he was talking about, there was nothing wrong with nada, its was all dad's fault, etc., etc. -Annie > > > > > > " Reduced anterior and posterior cingulate gray matter in borderline > > personality disorder. " > > > > > > From: __http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861__'>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861__ > (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861_) > > (_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861_ > (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861) ) > > > > > > > > > If it really were all due to brain structure abnormalities that makes > it > > even trickier for me to approach the issues with my nada as a KO > > especially re forgiveness. I mean does she really know not what she > does? The > > cingulate gyrus: > > > > > > * Coordinates Sensory Input With Emotions > > > > > > * Emotional Responses to Pain > > > > > > * Regulates Aggressive Behavior > > > __http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm__'>http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm__ > (http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm_) > > (_http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm_ > (http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm) ) > > > > > > > > > And that's what they do....their emotions are out of whack, they can't > > handle the smallest amount of emotional pain without aggression being > > triggered. And yet, most can put on a good face in public so some > control is > > possible so then do we hold them accountable? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 From what I understand, there have been documented brain abnormalities for many trauma victims. It's hard for me to accept that my BPD nada was likely a victim of trauma and abuse. I wouldn't be surprised if my poor brain is abnormal too lol. Wish I remember where I was reading that and I'd link you guys. Thank you so much for sharing this link too! Sorry... I just love love love the brain!!! Neuro is so interesting to me. I have a feeling I'll be a neuro nurse some day. Mia > > > " Reduced anterior and posterior cingulate gray matter in borderline > personality disorder. " > > From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861 > > If it really were all due to brain structure abnormalities that makes it > even trickier for me to approach the issues with my nada as a KO especially > re forgiveness. I mean does she really know not what she does? The cingulate > gyrus: > > * Coordinates Sensory Input With Emotions > > * Emotional Responses to Pain > > * Regulates Aggressive Behavior > http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm > > And that's what they do....their emotions are out of whack, they can't > handle the smallest amount of emotional pain without aggression being > triggered. And yet, most can put on a good face in public so some control is > possible so then do we hold them accountable? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 From what I understand, there have been documented brain abnormalities for many trauma victims. It's hard for me to accept that my BPD nada was likely a victim of trauma and abuse. I wouldn't be surprised if my poor brain is abnormal too lol. Wish I remember where I was reading that and I'd link you guys. Thank you so much for sharing this link too! Sorry... I just love love love the brain!!! Neuro is so interesting to me. I have a feeling I'll be a neuro nurse some day. Mia > > > " Reduced anterior and posterior cingulate gray matter in borderline > personality disorder. " > > From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861 > > If it really were all due to brain structure abnormalities that makes it > even trickier for me to approach the issues with my nada as a KO especially > re forgiveness. I mean does she really know not what she does? The cingulate > gyrus: > > * Coordinates Sensory Input With Emotions > > * Emotional Responses to Pain > > * Regulates Aggressive Behavior > http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm > > And that's what they do....their emotions are out of whack, they can't > handle the smallest amount of emotional pain without aggression being > triggered. And yet, most can put on a good face in public so some control is > possible so then do we hold them accountable? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 From what I understand, there have been documented brain abnormalities for many trauma victims. It's hard for me to accept that my BPD nada was likely a victim of trauma and abuse. I wouldn't be surprised if my poor brain is abnormal too lol. Wish I remember where I was reading that and I'd link you guys. Thank you so much for sharing this link too! Sorry... I just love love love the brain!!! Neuro is so interesting to me. I have a feeling I'll be a neuro nurse some day. Mia > > > " Reduced anterior and posterior cingulate gray matter in borderline > personality disorder. " > > From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861 > > If it really were all due to brain structure abnormalities that makes it > even trickier for me to approach the issues with my nada as a KO especially > re forgiveness. I mean does she really know not what she does? The cingulate > gyrus: > > * Coordinates Sensory Input With Emotions > > * Emotional Responses to Pain > > * Regulates Aggressive Behavior > http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm > > And that's what they do....their emotions are out of whack, they can't > handle the smallest amount of emotional pain without aggression being > triggered. And yet, most can put on a good face in public so some control is > possible so then do we hold them accountable? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 This is true: my own nada came from a very ordinary but loving, intact, middle-class, socially responsible, mentally healthy bio-foo. Her own sisters do not corroborate my nada's version of their childhood; nada claims she was neglected and unloved by their mother and that she and her sisters were often beaten by their father. My aunts are bewildered by these claims. My own experience with my maternal grandparents is that they were simply nice people. No yelling, no screaming, no raging, no hitting, no mind-f**king manipulative games, no blaming, no favoritism. They were soft-spoken, physically affectionate (in appropriate ways) and just... sweet and normal. I tend to believe my own perceptions of my grandparents, and my aunt's memories. The only adult I ever saw screaming in red-faced rage at anyone was my own mother, who would sometimes get her older sister alone and hurl vicious verbal abuse at her (I as a witness apparently didn't count) the same way she would scream at Sister and dad and me. Nobody *ever* stood up to my nada and told her to knock it off and act like an adult. My nada had her own foo terrorized, it would seem. I also tend to disbelieve my nada's version of her childhood because my nada also claims that my dad would beat her (I never saw my dad raise his hand in anger to anyone; when nada would goad him into a verbal fight with her, he'd leave the house when things got really heated) and nada also claims that she herself was the perfect mother and never beat Sister and me with the belt. That is so very not true; Sister and I can corroborate each other's memories of frequent angry rages and physical assaults we endured at our mother's hands up into our teen years. There are groups like ours for parents raising bpd children and/or who have bpd adult children, and the posts there will break your heart. The parents who post there for support are eaten up with guilt, wondering if something they've done made their child so emotionally dysregulated, negative, manipulative, demanding, unhappy, unmotivated and self-destructive. These parents do not sound like abusive monsters to me, any more than my grandparents did. So, me personally, I think that if a person is born with the temperamental trait of abnormally extreme sensitivity, then even an average or normal home environment would be perceived as invalidating and negligent or punitive, while a more resilient, less sensitive infant/child could experience more sensory or emotional assaults before emotional damage results. Its an interplay between the genetic temperament (more sensitive, less resilient vs less sensitive, more resilient) and the environment/parenting. I lean toward genetics playing the larger role in determining whether a person develops personality disorder or not. -Annie > > > I'm no expert, obviously, but from what I understand, BPD does not necessarily have to be caused by abuse per se. It can be caused by a very sensitive child having an invalidating environment, through genetics, etc... I've even read about BPD's who had great childhoods. I think abuse is definitely a contributor sometimes, but not necessarily all the time. > > Also, maybe the reason some get better and some don't is just the different in their levels of functioning and their personalities. Just my guess. Perhaps being put on the right combinations of medications with the right therapy can help more than anything else. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.