Guest guest Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 The way I read that abstract, they saw shrinkage in some areas of the brain. It doesn't say anything about whether the shrinkage is the cause or the effect of having BPD. Do parts of their brain shrink because they don't put them to good use, are their behavioral issues caused by starting life with brain structure differences, or is something else causing the brain structure changes as they age, resulting in increased symptoms? My own opinion is that most people who have BPD are either born with it or with a susceptibility to developing it. Extreme trauma while growing up may have similar results but I don't think that explains most cases of BPD. However it happens, I don't believe they choose to have BPD. As for whether or not to hold them accountable, I think that worrying about that just leads to prolonging the emotional pain of dealing with them without changing anything for the better. The way I see it, they have the ability to make choices, but their ability to make the right choices is broken. The saying about computer data - " Garbage in, garbage out " seems to apply. Their emotions feed garbage in to their brain, causing garbage to come back out in the form of aggressive and nasty responses. The more emotional they get, the more garbage is fed in. So on one level you can blame them for their individual choices, but on another you can't blame them for having BPD to start with. People with brain deficits of various sorts can and do learn to work around their deficits with a lot of work and training. The few people who actually seek and get treatment for BPD show that they can learn to do a lot better than most of our nadas and fadas do. The fact that I seem to have trained my nada to behave much better when she's with me also points towards at least some of them being able to learn to make better choices. I harbor no illusions that my nada understands why it is wrong to do and say certain things, but she has learned not to do and say them around me. That feels like training a pet. My cats don't understand why they should stay off the kitchen counters, but they understand that they will be punished if I catch them there. At 01:52 PM 01/01/2011 climberkayak wrote: > " Reduced anterior and posterior cingulate gray matter in >borderline personality disorder. " > >From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861 > > >If it really were all due to brain structure abnormalities that >makes it even trickier for me to approach the issues with my >nada as a KO especially re forgiveness. I mean does she really >know not what she does? The cingulate gyrus: > > * Coordinates Sensory Input With Emotions > > * Emotional Responses to Pain > > * Regulates Aggressive Behavior >http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm > > >And that's what they do....their emotions are out of whack, >they can't handle the smallest amount of emotional pain without >aggression being triggered. And yet, most can put on a good >face in public so some control is possible so then do we hold >them accountable? > > -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 You have just asked one of THE core questions RE bpd. Me personally, I think the answer is very gray and fuzzy. I think that the person with personality disorder cannot help it that their perceptions of reality and their interpretation of reality (cognitive distortion) are skewed, in the same way that a color blind person can't help it that their brain can't perceive the world in anything but tones of gray. However, I do think that most of the time the high-functioning person with personality disorder *can* control how and when they react to their negatively skewed perceptions and interpretations. My nada's hair-trigger temper at least used to be under her conscious control, most of the time. When I was growing up my nada virtually never acted out in public, she would wait until I and/or my Sister and/or my dad were alone with her before she would unleash her rage at us. Reining back her emotions was an act of pure will that she chose to do when it suited her; she greatly desired to appear " perfect " in public. She *chose* to act out only when there were no witnesses, and she chose only to act out against those who could not or would not fight back: against her children and her husband, and sometimes against her own older sister. Only under extreme stress and in her late middle age did I start seeing my nada " lose it " in public. Her little gatekeeper / her willpower / her executive function appears to have started deteriorating in her 60's. So its just not as straightforward, simple, or black-and-white as " Yes they can help it " or " No they can't help it " in my opinion. Thanks for the link, the more hard-core, organic, neurological, biological, genetic, scientific research on the conundrum of bpd, the better as far as I'm concerned. -Annie > > " Reduced anterior and posterior cingulate gray matter in borderline personality disorder. " > > From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861 > > > If it really were all due to brain structure abnormalities that makes it even trickier for me to approach the issues with my nada as a KO especially re forgiveness. I mean does she really know not what she does? The cingulate gyrus: > > * Coordinates Sensory Input With Emotions > > * Emotional Responses to Pain > > * Regulates Aggressive Behavior > http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm > > > And that's what they do....their emotions are out of whack, they can't handle the smallest amount of emotional pain without aggression being triggered. And yet, most can put on a good face in public so some control is possible so then do we hold them accountable? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 You have just asked one of THE core questions RE bpd. Me personally, I think the answer is very gray and fuzzy. I think that the person with personality disorder cannot help it that their perceptions of reality and their interpretation of reality (cognitive distortion) are skewed, in the same way that a color blind person can't help it that their brain can't perceive the world in anything but tones of gray. However, I do think that most of the time the high-functioning person with personality disorder *can* control how and when they react to their negatively skewed perceptions and interpretations. My nada's hair-trigger temper at least used to be under her conscious control, most of the time. When I was growing up my nada virtually never acted out in public, she would wait until I and/or my Sister and/or my dad were alone with her before she would unleash her rage at us. Reining back her emotions was an act of pure will that she chose to do when it suited her; she greatly desired to appear " perfect " in public. She *chose* to act out only when there were no witnesses, and she chose only to act out against those who could not or would not fight back: against her children and her husband, and sometimes against her own older sister. Only under extreme stress and in her late middle age did I start seeing my nada " lose it " in public. Her little gatekeeper / her willpower / her executive function appears to have started deteriorating in her 60's. So its just not as straightforward, simple, or black-and-white as " Yes they can help it " or " No they can't help it " in my opinion. Thanks for the link, the more hard-core, organic, neurological, biological, genetic, scientific research on the conundrum of bpd, the better as far as I'm concerned. -Annie > > " Reduced anterior and posterior cingulate gray matter in borderline personality disorder. " > > From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861 > > > If it really were all due to brain structure abnormalities that makes it even trickier for me to approach the issues with my nada as a KO especially re forgiveness. I mean does she really know not what she does? The cingulate gyrus: > > * Coordinates Sensory Input With Emotions > > * Emotional Responses to Pain > > * Regulates Aggressive Behavior > http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm > > > And that's what they do....their emotions are out of whack, they can't handle the smallest amount of emotional pain without aggression being triggered. And yet, most can put on a good face in public so some control is possible so then do we hold them accountable? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 You have just asked one of THE core questions RE bpd. Me personally, I think the answer is very gray and fuzzy. I think that the person with personality disorder cannot help it that their perceptions of reality and their interpretation of reality (cognitive distortion) are skewed, in the same way that a color blind person can't help it that their brain can't perceive the world in anything but tones of gray. However, I do think that most of the time the high-functioning person with personality disorder *can* control how and when they react to their negatively skewed perceptions and interpretations. My nada's hair-trigger temper at least used to be under her conscious control, most of the time. When I was growing up my nada virtually never acted out in public, she would wait until I and/or my Sister and/or my dad were alone with her before she would unleash her rage at us. Reining back her emotions was an act of pure will that she chose to do when it suited her; she greatly desired to appear " perfect " in public. She *chose* to act out only when there were no witnesses, and she chose only to act out against those who could not or would not fight back: against her children and her husband, and sometimes against her own older sister. Only under extreme stress and in her late middle age did I start seeing my nada " lose it " in public. Her little gatekeeper / her willpower / her executive function appears to have started deteriorating in her 60's. So its just not as straightforward, simple, or black-and-white as " Yes they can help it " or " No they can't help it " in my opinion. Thanks for the link, the more hard-core, organic, neurological, biological, genetic, scientific research on the conundrum of bpd, the better as far as I'm concerned. -Annie > > " Reduced anterior and posterior cingulate gray matter in borderline personality disorder. " > > From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861 > > > If it really were all due to brain structure abnormalities that makes it even trickier for me to approach the issues with my nada as a KO especially re forgiveness. I mean does she really know not what she does? The cingulate gyrus: > > * Coordinates Sensory Input With Emotions > > * Emotional Responses to Pain > > * Regulates Aggressive Behavior > http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm > > > And that's what they do....their emotions are out of whack, they can't handle the smallest amount of emotional pain without aggression being triggered. And yet, most can put on a good face in public so some control is possible so then do we hold them accountable? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 It's interesting that your mother lost control as she was older. I felt my mother got worse with age too, but everything I have read says bpd is supposed to level out and get better around the 40's. I think my mother's worst times started in her late 30's, though. In a message dated 1/1/2011 2:32:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, anuria-67854@... writes: You have just asked one of THE core questions RE bpd. Me personally, I think the answer is very gray and fuzzy. I think that the person with personality disorder cannot help it that their perceptions of reality and their interpretation of reality (cognitive distortion) are skewed, in the same way that a color blind person can't help it that their brain can't perceive the world in anything but tones of gray. However, I do think that most of the time the high-functioning person with personality disorder *can* control how and when they react to their negatively skewed perceptions and interpretations. My nada's hair-trigger temper at least used to be under her conscious control, most of the time. When I was growing up my nada virtually never acted out in public, she would wait until I and/or my Sister and/or my dad were alone with her before she would unleash her rage at us. Reining back her emotions was an act of pure will that she chose to do when it suited her; she greatly desired to appear " perfect " in public. She *chose* to act out only when there were no witnesses, and she chose only to act out against those who could not or would not fight back: against her children and her husband, and sometimes against her own older sister. Only under extreme stress and in her late middle age did I start seeing my nada " lose it " in public. Her little gatekeeper / her willpower / her executive function appears to have started deteriorating in her 60's. So its just not as straightforward, simple, or black-and-white as " Yes they can help it " or " No they can't help it " in my opinion. Thanks for the link, the more hard-core, organic, neurological, biological, genetic, scientific research on the conundrum of bpd, the better as far as I'm concerned. -Annie > > " Reduced anterior and posterior cingulate gray matter in borderline personality disorder. " > > From: _http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861_ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861) > > > If it really were all due to brain structure abnormalities that makes it even trickier for me to approach the issues with my nada as a KO especially re forgiveness. I mean does she really know not what she does? The cingulate gyrus: > > * Coordinates Sensory Input With Emotions > > * Emotional Responses to Pain > > * Regulates Aggressive Behavior > _http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm_ (http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm) > > > And that's what they do....their emotions are out of whack, they can't handle the smallest amount of emotional pain without aggression being triggered. And yet, most can put on a good face in public so some control is possible so then do we hold them accountable? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 Does the difference in the brain exist from birth or due to abuse or some other childhood trauma does the BPD repeat behaviors or shut off behaviors that result in the failure of the brain to develop? And why are some BPs able to seek help and recover and if they recover do these areas in the brain change? Does more development occur in the cortex? If all of this is the result of structural differences in the cortex then some researcher some where needs to be developing psychotropic drugs to see if we can finally come up with a pill to help. I have a son who is bi-polar he takes his medication and he functions. The chemical imbalance in his brain responds to the medication, however he has times when he forgets his meds then he says, " i'm feeling spooky, no sense talking to me, Mom this is the bi-polar talking not me. I need to get my medication regulated again, so I can function. " In contrast Fada says, " I don't need those pills they don't help. " Whether or not BPD is caused by differences in the cerebral cortex or if BPD causes changes to occur in the cerebral cortex as the person ages the bottom line is: NO KO asked for the suffering they have caused, no KO deserves the abuse we have suffered at their hands and even if the BP couldn't help it, that doesn't mean we deserved it and its our lot in life to continue to take their abuse because their brains are different and they can't help it. If my Fada was smart enough to know he was " different " and " couldn't help it " then why wasn't he smart enough to know his misery wasn't my responsibility. While I would welcome an organic explanation and it would certainly aid me in the forgiveness process the bottom line is even if there is an organic cause we better not accept it and stop there. We need to start screaming for medical research to try to come up with something that is as effective as the medication used to treat bi polars. Just because there may be an organic cause for BP doesn't mean we should accept it any more than Jonas Salk accepted polio! > > " Reduced anterior and posterior cingulate gray matter in borderline personality disorder. " > > From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15993861 > > > If it really were all due to brain structure abnormalities that makes it even trickier for me to approach the issues with my nada as a KO especially re forgiveness. I mean does she really know not what she does? The cingulate gyrus: > > * Coordinates Sensory Input With Emotions > > * Emotional Responses to Pain > > * Regulates Aggressive Behavior > http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcingyrus.htm > > > And that's what they do....their emotions are out of whack, they can't handle the smallest amount of emotional pain without aggression being triggered. And yet, most can put on a good face in public so some control is possible so then do we hold them accountable? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 This is true: my own nada came from a very ordinary but loving, intact, middle-class, socially responsible, mentally healthy bio-foo. Her own sisters do not corroborate my nada's version of their childhood; nada claims she was neglected and unloved by their mother and that she and her sisters were often beaten by their father. My aunts are bewildered by these claims. My own experience with my maternal grandparents is that they were simply nice people. No yelling, no screaming, no raging, no hitting, no mind-f**king manipulative games, no blaming, no favoritism. They were soft-spoken, physically affectionate (in appropriate ways) and just... sweet and normal. I tend to believe my own perceptions of my grandparents, and my aunt's memories. The only adult I ever saw screaming in red-faced rage at anyone was my own mother, who would sometimes get her older sister alone and hurl vicious verbal abuse at her (I as a witness apparently didn't count) the same way she would scream at Sister and dad and me. Nobody *ever* stood up to my nada and told her to knock it off and act like an adult. My nada had her own foo terrorized, it would seem. I also tend to disbelieve my nada's version of her childhood because my nada also claims that my dad would beat her (I never saw my dad raise his hand in anger to anyone; when nada would goad him into a verbal fight with her, he'd leave the house when things got really heated) and nada also claims that she herself was the perfect mother and never beat Sister and me with the belt. That is so very not true; Sister and I can corroborate each other's memories of frequent angry rages and physical assaults we endured at our mother's hands up into our teen years. There are groups like ours for parents raising bpd children and/or who have bpd adult children, and the posts there will break your heart. The parents who post there for support are eaten up with guilt, wondering if something they've done made their child so emotionally dysregulated, negative, manipulative, demanding, unhappy, unmotivated and self-destructive. These parents do not sound like abusive monsters to me, any more than my grandparents did. So, me personally, I think that if a person is born with the temperamental trait of abnormally extreme sensitivity, then even an average or normal home environment would be perceived as invalidating and negligent or punitive, while a more resilient, less sensitive infant/child could experience more sensory or emotional assaults before emotional damage results. Its an interplay between the genetic temperament (more sensitive, less resilient vs less sensitive, more resilient) and the environment/parenting. I lean toward genetics playing the larger role in determining whether a person develops personality disorder or not. -Annie > > > I'm no expert, obviously, but from what I understand, BPD does not necessarily have to be caused by abuse per se. It can be caused by a very sensitive child having an invalidating environment, through genetics, etc... I've even read about BPD's who had great childhoods. I think abuse is definitely a contributor sometimes, but not necessarily all the time. > > Also, maybe the reason some get better and some don't is just the different in their levels of functioning and their personalities. Just my guess. Perhaps being put on the right combinations of medications with the right therapy can help more than anything else. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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