Re: is BPD really mental illness?

[Guest guest]

I'm not familiar with the case you mentioned, but yes, in the current edition of

the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (of mental illnesses), the DSM-IV,

borderline personality disorder is categorized as an " Axis II, Cluster B " mental

illness.

Axis II comprises only personality disorders and mental retardation.

These conditions occupy their own Axis because they are considered unresponsive

to talk therapy or drug therapy: they are untreatable. " Cluster B " (the dramatic

and erratic pds) includes bpd, histrionic pd, narcissistic pd and antisocial

personality disorder (aspd was earlier termed " sociopathic pd " or " psychopathic

pd. " )

Re the legal system as it pertains to mental illness, IF I understand what I've

read correctly, this is the deal:

Those with personality disorder are considered " legally sane " because they are

not psychotic: they ARE connected with reality and they know the difference

between right from wrong. PD individuals are therefor accountable for their

actions and suitable to stand trial if they commit a crime.

The word " insanity " is purely a legal term, not a medical term.

Individuals who have psychotic disorders (like schizophrenia) are not connected

with reality. While in a psychotic state, a person is considered incapable of

comprehending that what they are doing or did is dangerous, illegal, lethal,

etc. Psychosis is the basis for being declared " legally insane " and therefor

not suitable to stand trial. If such a person commits a horrible crime they

would be found " not guilty by reason of insanity " and (hopefully) incarcerated

in an institution for the criminally insane.

So on the one hand, personality disorder is a genuine mental illness, but on the

other hand (confusingly) those with personality disorder are considered " legally

sane " for trial purposes because they are not psychotic.

Which is Alice-In-Wonderland level contradictory and confusing because

" transient psychotic breaks with reality " IS a feature of borderline pd. Which,

I suppose, is why there exists the plea/defense of " not guilty due to temporary

insanity. "

Seems that virtually nothing about mental illness is simple or straightforward.

-Annie

>

> So one of the issues I'm struggling with now is whether or not my mother is

> really mentally ill. Watching the recent trial of a man who kidnapped a

> young girl and made her his wife, claiming it was ordained by God, that took

> place in my community has been kind of an external version of my internal

> struggle. He was declared a (help me Annie with the terms) Cluster B

> mentally ill guy, possiblly a sociopath. They decided he knew what he was

> doing was wrong but did it anyway. He was found guilty.

>

> Kind of sad that such a sick sick man would remind me of my nada. . . But

> anyway, I don't fully have my arms around it yet, but I believe in my mind

> I'm going to issue my own verdict - my nada, guilty without the excuse of

> insanity. She just did not care about society's rules. She would have eaten

> her own daughter alive if she got hungry enough (ran out of tootsie rolls).

>

> I'd love to hear your thoughts.

>

> Girlscout

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well, my opinion is yes, it is a mental illness. It's not quite the same as

with other mental illnesses though because I really believe that a lot of

what causes BPD & possibly other cluster B's is shaped by life experience.

In the case of BPD, most likely trauma. Again, I am in no way shape or

form an expert on this, just my own opinion.

But like another post here was discussing how there may very well be brain

changes with BPD, that's pretty profound. I have read other studies that

also support brain changes in trauma. It's amazing, sad & strange all in

one package.

I think about what I've been through with my nada. The stress (yep,

hormones & chemicals released into the body), fear (more of the same) and

hell, even physical trauma... is it possible that with a constant barrage of

chemicals & just flat out craziness that it has changed my brain? I think

so. Again, I can't describe it accurately enough because I'm just not that

informed, but I do think my PTSD brain is changed from the repeated traumas

I had to live through. Does that mean I can't take control & retrain my

amazing brain? Nope! The human brain is so complex, so amazing &

beautiful... yes, there is hope for retraining my brain, and I think even

nadas. But, that is her choice... to be honest & get help or not to.

I do think there is something physiological happening to us & to them.

Probably on a very small macro scale. Interestingly enough, I learned

through one project I had to do for school that adult survivors of child

abuse are twice as likely as the general population to have gastrointestinal

problems. Why is that? Something is happening, it's not just psychosomatic

(all in our heads).

I also think there is a connection between some other health issues &

stress/trauma. It's something I hope to one day learn more about.

(Example: fibromyalgia & CFS figures in trauma victims)

Sorry if this doesn't make a lick of sense. I'm so tired today and feel

like crapola. lol. Hopefully someone else who makes more sense than me

will reply. And like I said, this is just my own theory, I could be waaaay

way off track.

Mia

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 9:42 AM, Girlscout Cowboy <girlscout.cowboy@...

> wrote:

>

>

> So one of the issues I'm struggling with now is whether or not my mother is

> really mentally ill. Watching the recent trial of a man who kidnapped a

> young girl and made her his wife, claiming it was ordained by God, that

> took

> place in my community has been kind of an external version of my internal

> struggle. He was declared a (help me Annie with the terms) Cluster B

> mentally ill guy, possiblly a sociopath. They decided he knew what he was

> doing was wrong but did it anyway. He was found guilty.

>

> Kind of sad that such a sick sick man would remind me of my nada. . . But

> anyway, I don't fully have my arms around it yet, but I believe in my mind

> I'm going to issue my own verdict - my nada, guilty without the excuse of

> insanity. She just did not care about society's rules. She would have eaten

> her own daughter alive if she got hungry enough (ran out of tootsie rolls).

>

> I'd love to hear your thoughts.

>

> Girlscout

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well, my opinion is yes, it is a mental illness. It's not quite the same as

with other mental illnesses though because I really believe that a lot of

what causes BPD & possibly other cluster B's is shaped by life experience.

In the case of BPD, most likely trauma. Again, I am in no way shape or

form an expert on this, just my own opinion.

But like another post here was discussing how there may very well be brain

changes with BPD, that's pretty profound. I have read other studies that

also support brain changes in trauma. It's amazing, sad & strange all in

one package.

I think about what I've been through with my nada. The stress (yep,

hormones & chemicals released into the body), fear (more of the same) and

hell, even physical trauma... is it possible that with a constant barrage of

chemicals & just flat out craziness that it has changed my brain? I think

so. Again, I can't describe it accurately enough because I'm just not that

informed, but I do think my PTSD brain is changed from the repeated traumas

I had to live through. Does that mean I can't take control & retrain my

amazing brain? Nope! The human brain is so complex, so amazing &

beautiful... yes, there is hope for retraining my brain, and I think even

nadas. But, that is her choice... to be honest & get help or not to.

I do think there is something physiological happening to us & to them.

Probably on a very small macro scale. Interestingly enough, I learned

through one project I had to do for school that adult survivors of child

abuse are twice as likely as the general population to have gastrointestinal

problems. Why is that? Something is happening, it's not just psychosomatic

(all in our heads).

I also think there is a connection between some other health issues &

stress/trauma. It's something I hope to one day learn more about.

(Example: fibromyalgia & CFS figures in trauma victims)

Sorry if this doesn't make a lick of sense. I'm so tired today and feel

like crapola. lol. Hopefully someone else who makes more sense than me

will reply. And like I said, this is just my own theory, I could be waaaay

way off track.

Mia

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 9:42 AM, Girlscout Cowboy <girlscout.cowboy@...

> wrote:

>

>

> So one of the issues I'm struggling with now is whether or not my mother is

> really mentally ill. Watching the recent trial of a man who kidnapped a

> young girl and made her his wife, claiming it was ordained by God, that

> took

> place in my community has been kind of an external version of my internal

> struggle. He was declared a (help me Annie with the terms) Cluster B

> mentally ill guy, possiblly a sociopath. They decided he knew what he was

> doing was wrong but did it anyway. He was found guilty.

>

> Kind of sad that such a sick sick man would remind me of my nada. . . But

> anyway, I don't fully have my arms around it yet, but I believe in my mind

> I'm going to issue my own verdict - my nada, guilty without the excuse of

> insanity. She just did not care about society's rules. She would have eaten

> her own daughter alive if she got hungry enough (ran out of tootsie rolls).

>

> I'd love to hear your thoughts.

>

> Girlscout

>

>

[Guest guest]

My personal opinion and it is just that is that BPD is a mental illness. We have

a lot of mental illness in the family. I have a cousin with PTSD and bi-polar

runs in my husband's family. So we have seen a lot of mental illness. My

personal opinion after a life time with Fada is that most BPs recognize that

they are different from the status quo but at some level they refuse to change.

The relatives with bi-polar disorder and PTSD want to escape the agony they are

feeling they did things to improve, in contrast Fada almost enjoys his BPD he

wallows in it and loves saying " don't you know I'm different " I have a son who

is bi-polar and he told me when he was in the hospital he made a choice to

improve, he keeps telling me that his grandfather has chosen not to improve. I'm

completing the exercises in SWOE workbook and beginning to understand that empty

void, but can not understand not wanting to try to get rid of that void, not

wanting to fight that void. In my opinion you'd have to be mentally ill to know

you are different and want to stay that way. But that's just my opinion and I

certainly respect any one who has a different one.

Kay

>

> So one of the issues I'm struggling with now is whether or not my mother is

> really mentally ill. Watching the recent trial of a man who kidnapped a

> young girl and made her his wife, claiming it was ordained by God, that took

> place in my community has been kind of an external version of my internal

> struggle. He was declared a (help me Annie with the terms) Cluster B

> mentally ill guy, possiblly a sociopath. They decided he knew what he was

> doing was wrong but did it anyway. He was found guilty.

>

> Kind of sad that such a sick sick man would remind me of my nada. . . But

> anyway, I don't fully have my arms around it yet, but I believe in my mind

> I'm going to issue my own verdict - my nada, guilty without the excuse of

> insanity. She just did not care about society's rules. She would have eaten

> her own daughter alive if she got hungry enough (ran out of tootsie rolls).

>

> I'd love to hear your thoughts.

>

> Girlscout

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

My personal opinion and it is just that is that BPD is a mental illness. We have

a lot of mental illness in the family. I have a cousin with PTSD and bi-polar

runs in my husband's family. So we have seen a lot of mental illness. My

personal opinion after a life time with Fada is that most BPs recognize that

they are different from the status quo but at some level they refuse to change.

The relatives with bi-polar disorder and PTSD want to escape the agony they are

feeling they did things to improve, in contrast Fada almost enjoys his BPD he

wallows in it and loves saying " don't you know I'm different " I have a son who

is bi-polar and he told me when he was in the hospital he made a choice to

improve, he keeps telling me that his grandfather has chosen not to improve. I'm

completing the exercises in SWOE workbook and beginning to understand that empty

void, but can not understand not wanting to try to get rid of that void, not

wanting to fight that void. In my opinion you'd have to be mentally ill to know

you are different and want to stay that way. But that's just my opinion and I

certainly respect any one who has a different one.

Kay

>

> So one of the issues I'm struggling with now is whether or not my mother is

> really mentally ill. Watching the recent trial of a man who kidnapped a

> young girl and made her his wife, claiming it was ordained by God, that took

> place in my community has been kind of an external version of my internal

> struggle. He was declared a (help me Annie with the terms) Cluster B

> mentally ill guy, possiblly a sociopath. They decided he knew what he was

> doing was wrong but did it anyway. He was found guilty.

>

> Kind of sad that such a sick sick man would remind me of my nada. . . But

> anyway, I don't fully have my arms around it yet, but I believe in my mind

> I'm going to issue my own verdict - my nada, guilty without the excuse of

> insanity. She just did not care about society's rules. She would have eaten

> her own daughter alive if she got hungry enough (ran out of tootsie rolls).

>

> I'd love to hear your thoughts.

>

> Girlscout

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I always thought the borderline part was that they were on the borderline

between psychosis and reality. Have I understood that wrongly? I can say my

mother was often unreasonabe and no amount of rationalizing with her changed her

mind. Whether or not she was truly not believing the things she was told or she

was faking, though, is questionable.

And this seems to say that BPD is untreatable and therefore, hopeless. What

about those who want to get well and are in treatmeant and maybe doing DBT

therapy or other therapies? Why is talk therapy said to not work with them?

Re: Re: is BPD really mental illness?

Perfectly said, Annie - I'm confused!!! Sounds like all of society is

onfused about the same topic.

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 11:07 AM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

I'm not familiar with the case you mentioned, but yes, in the current

edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (of mental illnesses), the

DSM-IV, borderline personality disorder is categorized as an " Axis II,

Cluster B " mental illness.

Axis II comprises only personality disorders and mental retardation.

These conditions occupy their own Axis because they are considered

unresponsive to talk therapy or drug therapy: they are untreatable. " Cluster

B " (the dramatic and erratic pds) includes bpd, histrionic pd, narcissistic

pd and antisocial personality disorder (aspd was earlier termed " sociopathic

pd " or " psychopathic pd. " )

Re the legal system as it pertains to mental illness, IF I understand what

I've read correctly, this is the deal:

Those with personality disorder are considered " legally sane " because they

are not psychotic: they ARE connected with reality and they know the

difference between right from wrong. PD individuals are therefor accountable

for their actions and suitable to stand trial if they commit a crime.

The word " insanity " is purely a legal term, not a medical term.

Individuals who have psychotic disorders (like schizophrenia) are not

connected with reality. While in a psychotic state, a person is considered

incapable of comprehending that what they are doing or did is dangerous,

illegal, lethal, etc. Psychosis is the basis for being declared " legally

insane " and therefor not suitable to stand trial. If such a person commits a

horrible crime they would be found " not guilty by reason of insanity " and

(hopefully) incarcerated in an institution for the criminally insane.

So on the one hand, personality disorder is a genuine mental illness, but

on the other hand (confusingly) those with personality disorder are

considered " legally sane " for trial purposes because they are not psychotic.

Which is Alice-In-Wonderland level contradictory and confusing because

" transient psychotic breaks with reality " IS a feature of borderline pd.

Which, I suppose, is why there exists the plea/defense of " not guilty due to

temporary insanity. "

Seems that virtually nothing about mental illness is simple or

straightforward.

-Annie

>

> So one of the issues I'm struggling with now is whether or not my mother

is

> really mentally ill. Watching the recent trial of a man who kidnapped a

> young girl and made her his wife, claiming it was ordained by God, that

took

> place in my community has been kind of an external version of my internal

> struggle. He was declared a (help me Annie with the terms) Cluster B

> mentally ill guy, possiblly a sociopath. They decided he knew what he was

> doing was wrong but did it anyway. He was found guilty.

>

> Kind of sad that such a sick sick man would remind me of my nada. . . But

> anyway, I don't fully have my arms around it yet, but I believe in my

mind

> I'm going to issue my own verdict - my nada, guilty without the excuse of

> insanity. She just did not care about society's rules. She would have

eaten

> her own daughter alive if she got hungry enough (ran out of tootsie

rolls).

>

> I'd love to hear your thoughts.

>

> Girlscout

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

....I kinda felt what you are saying about not wanting to change with my mother.

I don't know if she didn't want to or the illness prevented her from it. So I

am not sure whether her behavior was a consequence of the illness or vice versa.

In my opinion you'd have to be mentally ill to know you are different and want

to stay that way. But that's just my opinion and I certainly respect any one who

has a different one.

Re: is BPD really mental illness?

My personal opinion and it is just that is that BPD is a mental illness. We have

a lot of mental illness in the family. I have a cousin with PTSD and bi-polar

runs in my husband's family. So we have seen a lot of mental illness. My

personal opinion after a life time with Fada is that most BPs recognize that

they are different from the status quo but at some level they refuse to change.

The relatives with bi-polar disorder and PTSD want to escape the agony they are

feeling they did things to improve, in contrast Fada almost enjoys his BPD he

wallows in it and loves saying " don't you know I'm different " I have a son who

is bi-polar and he told me when he was in the hospital he made a choice to

improve, he keeps telling me that his grandfather has chosen not to improve. I'm

completing the exercises in SWOE workbook and beginning to understand that empty

void, but can not understand not wanting to try to get rid of that void, not

wanting to fight that void. In my opinion you'd have to be mentally ill to know

you are different and want to stay that way. But that's just my opinion and I

certainly respect any one who has a different one.

Kay

>

> So one of the issues I'm struggling with now is whether or not my mother is

> really mentally ill. Watching the recent trial of a man who kidnapped a

> young girl and made her his wife, claiming it was ordained by God, that took

> place in my community has been kind of an external version of my internal

> struggle. He was declared a (help me Annie with the terms) Cluster B

> mentally ill guy, possiblly a sociopath. They decided he knew what he was

> doing was wrong but did it anyway. He was found guilty.

>

> Kind of sad that such a sick sick man would remind me of my nada. . . But

> anyway, I don't fully have my arms around it yet, but I believe in my mind

> I'm going to issue my own verdict - my nada, guilty without the excuse of

> insanity. She just did not care about society's rules. She would have eaten

> her own daughter alive if she got hungry enough (ran out of tootsie rolls).

>

> I'd love to hear your thoughts.

>

> Girlscout

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

....I kinda felt what you are saying about not wanting to change with my mother.

I don't know if she didn't want to or the illness prevented her from it. So I

am not sure whether her behavior was a consequence of the illness or vice versa.

In my opinion you'd have to be mentally ill to know you are different and want

to stay that way. But that's just my opinion and I certainly respect any one who

has a different one.

Re: is BPD really mental illness?

My personal opinion and it is just that is that BPD is a mental illness. We have

a lot of mental illness in the family. I have a cousin with PTSD and bi-polar

runs in my husband's family. So we have seen a lot of mental illness. My

personal opinion after a life time with Fada is that most BPs recognize that

they are different from the status quo but at some level they refuse to change.

The relatives with bi-polar disorder and PTSD want to escape the agony they are

feeling they did things to improve, in contrast Fada almost enjoys his BPD he

wallows in it and loves saying " don't you know I'm different " I have a son who

is bi-polar and he told me when he was in the hospital he made a choice to

improve, he keeps telling me that his grandfather has chosen not to improve. I'm

completing the exercises in SWOE workbook and beginning to understand that empty

void, but can not understand not wanting to try to get rid of that void, not

wanting to fight that void. In my opinion you'd have to be mentally ill to know

you are different and want to stay that way. But that's just my opinion and I

certainly respect any one who has a different one.

Kay

>

> So one of the issues I'm struggling with now is whether or not my mother is

> really mentally ill. Watching the recent trial of a man who kidnapped a

> young girl and made her his wife, claiming it was ordained by God, that took

> place in my community has been kind of an external version of my internal

> struggle. He was declared a (help me Annie with the terms) Cluster B

> mentally ill guy, possiblly a sociopath. They decided he knew what he was

> doing was wrong but did it anyway. He was found guilty.

>

> Kind of sad that such a sick sick man would remind me of my nada. . . But

> anyway, I don't fully have my arms around it yet, but I believe in my mind

> I'm going to issue my own verdict - my nada, guilty without the excuse of

> insanity. She just did not care about society's rules. She would have eaten

> her own daughter alive if she got hungry enough (ran out of tootsie rolls).

>

> I'd love to hear your thoughts.

>

> Girlscout

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

....I kinda felt what you are saying about not wanting to change with my mother.

I don't know if she didn't want to or the illness prevented her from it. So I

am not sure whether her behavior was a consequence of the illness or vice versa.

In my opinion you'd have to be mentally ill to know you are different and want

to stay that way. But that's just my opinion and I certainly respect any one who

has a different one.

Re: is BPD really mental illness?

My personal opinion and it is just that is that BPD is a mental illness. We have

a lot of mental illness in the family. I have a cousin with PTSD and bi-polar

runs in my husband's family. So we have seen a lot of mental illness. My

personal opinion after a life time with Fada is that most BPs recognize that

they are different from the status quo but at some level they refuse to change.

The relatives with bi-polar disorder and PTSD want to escape the agony they are

feeling they did things to improve, in contrast Fada almost enjoys his BPD he

wallows in it and loves saying " don't you know I'm different " I have a son who

is bi-polar and he told me when he was in the hospital he made a choice to

improve, he keeps telling me that his grandfather has chosen not to improve. I'm

completing the exercises in SWOE workbook and beginning to understand that empty

void, but can not understand not wanting to try to get rid of that void, not

wanting to fight that void. In my opinion you'd have to be mentally ill to know

you are different and want to stay that way. But that's just my opinion and I

certainly respect any one who has a different one.

Kay

>

> So one of the issues I'm struggling with now is whether or not my mother is

> really mentally ill. Watching the recent trial of a man who kidnapped a

> young girl and made her his wife, claiming it was ordained by God, that took

> place in my community has been kind of an external version of my internal

> struggle. He was declared a (help me Annie with the terms) Cluster B

> mentally ill guy, possiblly a sociopath. They decided he knew what he was

> doing was wrong but did it anyway. He was found guilty.

>

> Kind of sad that such a sick sick man would remind me of my nada. . . But

> anyway, I don't fully have my arms around it yet, but I believe in my mind

> I'm going to issue my own verdict - my nada, guilty without the excuse of

> insanity. She just did not care about society's rules. She would have eaten

> her own daughter alive if she got hungry enough (ran out of tootsie rolls).

>

> I'd love to hear your thoughts.

>

> Girlscout

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Keep in mind that I am not a psychologist, this is just my interpretation of

what I've read about personality disorder in combination with my own opinions.

I think you are right and the term " borderline " pd was coined originally because

psychologists/psychiatrists thought the symptoms and behaviors straddled both

psychosis and neurosis: partly some of each. (I think they were right on

target, myself.) There is a movement within the psychiatric community to have

it changed to " emotional regulation disorder " , I think.

If I understand correctly what I've read, bpd like most other illnesses or

conditions comes in a range of severity. So some with bpd are severely bpd, and

others with bpd are only mildly affected by it; their behaviors and traits would

be less frequent and less severe; perhaps they only express 4 of the 9 criteria

instead of the 5 needed for a formal diagnosis.

Personality disorder is considered to be unresponsive to talk therapy because

personality disorder is " ego syntonic. " This means the person with personality

disorder is not distressed by their condition; its " who they are " and they're OK

with that. The pd individual believes that all their problems originate outside

themselves: its always other people who are mean, messed up, manipulative,

selfish, or crazy and its other people who cause all the problems in the pd

person's life. The pd person can't or won't take responsibility for their own

behaviors and words; nothing is ever their fault. They do not seek treatment;

why should they when there's nothing wrong with them?

So, talk therapy can't work if the individual either refuses to seek talk

therapy at all, or refuses stay in talk therapy even if they do try it.

The psychologists who do treat those with personality disorder, from what I've

read, accept only one or two pd patients in their total caseload at a time

because pd patients are difficult patients and resistant to therapy. They tend

to try to control the therapy process, demand special treatment, tend to split

the therapist " all black " after only a few sessions, and if they do stay in

treatment they require more frequent/intensive/ and long-term psychotherapy in

order to show any improvement.

It seems likely to me that those who have been diagnosed with personality

disorder who actually do seek out treatment, who are able to gain personal

insight (that their perceptions and interpretations of reality are skewed) who

are able to actually care that they're hurting their loved ones (and themselves)

and feel remorseful about it and WANT to change, are able to take responsibility

for their behaviors and able to stay in treatment... those individuals are

either only *very* mildly affected by bpd or they were misdiagnosed and actually

only had a really bad case of " fleas " .

The good news is that one of the most recently-developed therapies, dialectical

behavioral therapy, does seem to be showing some success with low-functioning,

suicidal bpd patients, particularly (if I remember correctly) if the patients

are older children, teens or young adults.

I'll have to comb through my bookmarks to find the links to articles I've found

discussing that currently there is no single-drug therapy that is specifically

effective at treating bpd. Drug therapy is only useful if the person with bpd

ALSO has a condition that *does* respond to drug therapy, such as a co-morbidity

of depression (that responds to antidepressant meds), anxiety (that responds to

anti-anxiety meds) or schizophrenia (that responds to antipsychotic meds.)

There are many sites like NIMH, The Mayo Clinic, and articles by researchers in

scientific journals that discuss the most recent findings about personality

disorder, the latest or most well-regarded theories as to the causes and

treatments, etc. There's a lot of reading ahead of you if you're interested in

learning all you can about pds.

-Annie

> >

> > So one of the issues I'm struggling with now is whether or not my mother

> is

> > really mentally ill. Watching the recent trial of a man who kidnapped a

> > young girl and made her his wife, claiming it was ordained by God, that

> took

> > place in my community has been kind of an external version of my internal

> > struggle. He was declared a (help me Annie with the terms) Cluster B

> > mentally ill guy, possiblly a sociopath. They decided he knew what he was

> > doing was wrong but did it anyway. He was found guilty.

> >

> > Kind of sad that such a sick sick man would remind me of my nada. . . But

> > anyway, I don't fully have my arms around it yet, but I believe in my

> mind

> > I'm going to issue my own verdict - my nada, guilty without the excuse of

> > insanity. She just did not care about society's rules. She would have

> eaten

> > her own daughter alive if she got hungry enough (ran out of tootsie

> rolls).

> >

> > I'd love to hear your thoughts.

> >

> > Girlscout

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I agree with what you've said here. The thing is, it really solidifies my

thought that they can't control it. I'm not saying that they can't stop

themselves from screaming at their child, but I'm not so sure my mother knew she

was the crazy one. In fact, she used to always say, " you all think I'm

crazy...I'm NOT crazy....so and so is crazy. " And I really don't know that

'crazy' is the right term anyway because crazy indicates psychosis really.

However, they do have trouble with reality, so manye that is some form of

psychosis. I mean, I know I use the crazy term pretty liberally most of the

time.

I dunno. The further I get in college, the more I think i might want to one day

work with BPDs and figure all of this out. Of course, I'm just talking off the

hip right now and that may change in a year, but what if someone came up with

some kind of real therapy to help these people? Imagine what a breakthrough it

would be for them.

K

Re: is BPD really mental illness?

Keep in mind that I am not a psychologist, this is just my interpretation of

what I've read about personality disorder in combination with my own opinions.

I think you are right and the term " borderline " pd was coined originally because

psychologists/psychiatrists thought the symptoms and behaviors straddled both

psychosis and neurosis: partly some of each. (I think they were right on target,

myself.) There is a movement within the psychiatric community to have it changed

to " emotional regulation disorder " , I think.

If I understand correctly what I've read, bpd like most other illnesses or

conditions comes in a range of severity. So some with bpd are severely bpd, and

others with bpd are only mildly affected by it; their behaviors and traits would

be less frequent and less severe; perhaps they only express 4 of the 9 criteria

instead of the 5 needed for a formal diagnosis.

Personality disorder is considered to be unresponsive to talk therapy because

personality disorder is " ego syntonic. " This means the person with personality

disorder is not distressed by their condition; its " who they are " and they're OK

with that. The pd individual believes that all their problems originate outside

themselves: its always other people who are mean, messed up, manipulative,

selfish, or crazy and its other people who cause all the problems in the pd

person's life. The pd person can't or won't take responsibility for their own

behaviors and words; nothing is ever their fault. They do not seek treatment;

why should they when there's nothing wrong with them?

So, talk therapy can't work if the individual either refuses to seek talk

therapy at all, or refuses stay in talk therapy even if they do try it.

The psychologists who do treat those with personality disorder, from what I've

read, accept only one or two pd patients in their total caseload at a time

because pd patients are difficult patients and resistant to therapy. They tend

to try to control the therapy process, demand special treatment, tend to split

the therapist " all black " after only a few sessions, and if they do stay in

treatment they require more frequent/intensive/ and long-term psychotherapy in

order to show any improvement.

It seems likely to me that those who have been diagnosed with personality

disorder who actually do seek out treatment, who are able to gain personal

insight (that their perceptions and interpretations of reality are skewed) who

are able to actually care that they're hurting their loved ones (and themselves)

and feel remorseful about it and WANT to change, are able to take responsibility

for their behaviors and able to stay in treatment... those individuals are

either only *very* mildly affected by bpd or they were misdiagnosed and actually

only had a really bad case of " fleas " .

The good news is that one of the most recently-developed therapies, dialectical

behavioral therapy, does seem to be showing some success with low-functioning,

suicidal bpd patients, particularly (if I remember correctly) if the patients

are older children, teens or young adults.

I'll have to comb through my bookmarks to find the links to articles I've found

discussing that currently there is no single-drug therapy that is specifically

effective at treating bpd. Drug therapy is only useful if the person with bpd

ALSO has a condition that *does* respond to drug therapy, such as a co-morbidity

of depression (that responds to antidepressant meds), anxiety (that responds to

anti-anxiety meds) or schizophrenia (that responds to antipsychotic meds.)

There are many sites like NIMH, The Mayo Clinic, and articles by researchers in

scientific journals that discuss the most recent findings about personality

disorder, the latest or most well-regarded theories as to the causes and

treatments, etc. There's a lot of reading ahead of you if you're interested in

learning all you can about pds.

-Annie

> >

> > So one of the issues I'm struggling with now is whether or not my mother

> is

> > really mentally ill. Watching the recent trial of a man who kidnapped a

> > young girl and made her his wife, claiming it was ordained by God, that

> took

> > place in my community has been kind of an external version of my internal

> > struggle. He was declared a (help me Annie with the terms) Cluster B

> > mentally ill guy, possiblly a sociopath. They decided he knew what he was

> > doing was wrong but did it anyway. He was found guilty.

> >

> > Kind of sad that such a sick sick man would remind me of my nada. . . But

> > anyway, I don't fully have my arms around it yet, but I believe in my

> mind

> > I'm going to issue my own verdict - my nada, guilty without the excuse of

> > insanity. She just did not care about society's rules. She would have

> eaten

> > her own daughter alive if she got hungry enough (ran out of tootsie

> rolls).

> >

> > I'd love to hear your thoughts.

> >

> > Girlscout

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I don't know if BPD is a mental illness although I feel that people suffering

from BPD can be very delusional and paranoid with a some sort of demensia and

extreme mood swings. Does dementia or derealization happens uder extrem stress

that they feel or unconciously create, maybe, I'm not sure.

Also, not all people suffering from BPD are the same although almost all have

some kind of distorted way of thinking and behaving. And that's normal for them.

They justify their actions solely on their painful emotions and they find the

blame in their kids, if not, the queen of England.

[Guest guest]

I don't know if BPD is a mental illness although I feel that people suffering

from BPD can be very delusional and paranoid with a some sort of demensia and

extreme mood swings. Does dementia or derealization happens uder extrem stress

that they feel or unconciously create, maybe, I'm not sure.

Also, not all people suffering from BPD are the same although almost all have

some kind of distorted way of thinking and behaving. And that's normal for them.

They justify their actions solely on their painful emotions and they find the

blame in their kids, if not, the queen of England.