Re: is BPD really mental illness?

[Guest guest]

I'm not familiar with the case you mentioned, but yes, in the current edition of

the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (of mental illnesses), the DSM-IV,

borderline personality disorder is categorized as an " Axis II, Cluster B " mental

illness.

Axis II comprises only personality disorders and mental retardation.

These conditions occupy their own Axis because they are considered unresponsive

to talk therapy or drug therapy: they are untreatable. " Cluster B " (the dramatic

and erratic pds) includes bpd, histrionic pd, narcissistic pd and antisocial

personality disorder (aspd was earlier termed " sociopathic pd " or " psychopathic

pd. " )

Re the legal system as it pertains to mental illness, IF I understand what I've

read correctly, this is the deal:

Those with personality disorder are considered " legally sane " because they are

not psychotic: they ARE connected with reality and they know the difference

between right from wrong. PD individuals are therefor accountable for their

actions and suitable to stand trial if they commit a crime.

The word " insanity " is purely a legal term, not a medical term.

Individuals who have psychotic disorders (like schizophrenia) are not connected

with reality. While in a psychotic state, a person is considered incapable of

comprehending that what they are doing or did is dangerous, illegal, lethal,

etc. Psychosis is the basis for being declared " legally insane " and therefor

not suitable to stand trial. If such a person commits a horrible crime they

would be found " not guilty by reason of insanity " and (hopefully) incarcerated

in an institution for the criminally insane.

So on the one hand, personality disorder is a genuine mental illness, but on the

other hand (confusingly) those with personality disorder are considered " legally

sane " for trial purposes because they are not psychotic.

Which is Alice-In-Wonderland level contradictory and confusing because

" transient psychotic breaks with reality " IS a feature of borderline pd. Which,

I suppose, is why there exists the plea/defense of " not guilty due to temporary

insanity. "

Seems that virtually nothing about mental illness is simple or straightforward.

-Annie

>

> So one of the issues I'm struggling with now is whether or not my mother is

> really mentally ill. Watching the recent trial of a man who kidnapped a

> young girl and made her his wife, claiming it was ordained by God, that took

> place in my community has been kind of an external version of my internal

> struggle. He was declared a (help me Annie with the terms) Cluster B

> mentally ill guy, possiblly a sociopath. They decided he knew what he was

> doing was wrong but did it anyway. He was found guilty.

>

> Kind of sad that such a sick sick man would remind me of my nada. . . But

> anyway, I don't fully have my arms around it yet, but I believe in my mind

> I'm going to issue my own verdict - my nada, guilty without the excuse of

> insanity. She just did not care about society's rules. She would have eaten

> her own daughter alive if she got hungry enough (ran out of tootsie rolls).

>

> I'd love to hear your thoughts.

>

> Girlscout

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Perfectly said, Annie - I'm confused!!! Sounds like all of society is

confused about the same topic.

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 11:07 AM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> I'm not familiar with the case you mentioned, but yes, in the current

> edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (of mental illnesses), the

> DSM-IV, borderline personality disorder is categorized as an " Axis II,

> Cluster B " mental illness.

>

> Axis II comprises only personality disorders and mental retardation.

> These conditions occupy their own Axis because they are considered

> unresponsive to talk therapy or drug therapy: they are untreatable. " Cluster

> B " (the dramatic and erratic pds) includes bpd, histrionic pd, narcissistic

> pd and antisocial personality disorder (aspd was earlier termed " sociopathic

> pd " or " psychopathic pd. " )

>

> Re the legal system as it pertains to mental illness, IF I understand what

> I've read correctly, this is the deal:

>

> Those with personality disorder are considered " legally sane " because they

> are not psychotic: they ARE connected with reality and they know the

> difference between right from wrong. PD individuals are therefor accountable

> for their actions and suitable to stand trial if they commit a crime.

>

> The word " insanity " is purely a legal term, not a medical term.

>

> Individuals who have psychotic disorders (like schizophrenia) are not

> connected with reality. While in a psychotic state, a person is considered

> incapable of comprehending that what they are doing or did is dangerous,

> illegal, lethal, etc. Psychosis is the basis for being declared " legally

> insane " and therefor not suitable to stand trial. If such a person commits a

> horrible crime they would be found " not guilty by reason of insanity " and

> (hopefully) incarcerated in an institution for the criminally insane.

>

> So on the one hand, personality disorder is a genuine mental illness, but

> on the other hand (confusingly) those with personality disorder are

> considered " legally sane " for trial purposes because they are not psychotic.

>

>

> Which is Alice-In-Wonderland level contradictory and confusing because

> " transient psychotic breaks with reality " IS a feature of borderline pd.

> Which, I suppose, is why there exists the plea/defense of " not guilty due to

> temporary insanity. "

>

> Seems that virtually nothing about mental illness is simple or

> straightforward.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > So one of the issues I'm struggling with now is whether or not my mother

> is

> > really mentally ill. Watching the recent trial of a man who kidnapped a

> > young girl and made her his wife, claiming it was ordained by God, that

> took

> > place in my community has been kind of an external version of my internal

> > struggle. He was declared a (help me Annie with the terms) Cluster B

> > mentally ill guy, possiblly a sociopath. They decided he knew what he was

> > doing was wrong but did it anyway. He was found guilty.

> >

> > Kind of sad that such a sick sick man would remind me of my nada. . . But

> > anyway, I don't fully have my arms around it yet, but I believe in my

> mind

> > I'm going to issue my own verdict - my nada, guilty without the excuse of

> > insanity. She just did not care about society's rules. She would have

> eaten

> > her own daughter alive if she got hungry enough (ran out of tootsie

> rolls).

> >

> > I'd love to hear your thoughts.

> >

> > Girlscout

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Perfectly said, Annie - I'm confused!!! Sounds like all of society is

confused about the same topic.

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 11:07 AM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> I'm not familiar with the case you mentioned, but yes, in the current

> edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (of mental illnesses), the

> DSM-IV, borderline personality disorder is categorized as an " Axis II,

> Cluster B " mental illness.

>

> Axis II comprises only personality disorders and mental retardation.

> These conditions occupy their own Axis because they are considered

> unresponsive to talk therapy or drug therapy: they are untreatable. " Cluster

> B " (the dramatic and erratic pds) includes bpd, histrionic pd, narcissistic

> pd and antisocial personality disorder (aspd was earlier termed " sociopathic

> pd " or " psychopathic pd. " )

>

> Re the legal system as it pertains to mental illness, IF I understand what

> I've read correctly, this is the deal:

>

> Those with personality disorder are considered " legally sane " because they

> are not psychotic: they ARE connected with reality and they know the

> difference between right from wrong. PD individuals are therefor accountable

> for their actions and suitable to stand trial if they commit a crime.

>

> The word " insanity " is purely a legal term, not a medical term.

>

> Individuals who have psychotic disorders (like schizophrenia) are not

> connected with reality. While in a psychotic state, a person is considered

> incapable of comprehending that what they are doing or did is dangerous,

> illegal, lethal, etc. Psychosis is the basis for being declared " legally

> insane " and therefor not suitable to stand trial. If such a person commits a

> horrible crime they would be found " not guilty by reason of insanity " and

> (hopefully) incarcerated in an institution for the criminally insane.

>

> So on the one hand, personality disorder is a genuine mental illness, but

> on the other hand (confusingly) those with personality disorder are

> considered " legally sane " for trial purposes because they are not psychotic.

>

>

> Which is Alice-In-Wonderland level contradictory and confusing because

> " transient psychotic breaks with reality " IS a feature of borderline pd.

> Which, I suppose, is why there exists the plea/defense of " not guilty due to

> temporary insanity. "

>

> Seems that virtually nothing about mental illness is simple or

> straightforward.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > So one of the issues I'm struggling with now is whether or not my mother

> is

> > really mentally ill. Watching the recent trial of a man who kidnapped a

> > young girl and made her his wife, claiming it was ordained by God, that

> took

> > place in my community has been kind of an external version of my internal

> > struggle. He was declared a (help me Annie with the terms) Cluster B

> > mentally ill guy, possiblly a sociopath. They decided he knew what he was

> > doing was wrong but did it anyway. He was found guilty.

> >

> > Kind of sad that such a sick sick man would remind me of my nada. . . But

> > anyway, I don't fully have my arms around it yet, but I believe in my

> mind

> > I'm going to issue my own verdict - my nada, guilty without the excuse of

> > insanity. She just did not care about society's rules. She would have

> eaten

> > her own daughter alive if she got hungry enough (ran out of tootsie

> rolls).

> >

> > I'd love to hear your thoughts.

> >

> > Girlscout

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Perfectly said, Annie - I'm confused!!! Sounds like all of society is

confused about the same topic.

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 11:07 AM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> I'm not familiar with the case you mentioned, but yes, in the current

> edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (of mental illnesses), the

> DSM-IV, borderline personality disorder is categorized as an " Axis II,

> Cluster B " mental illness.

>

> Axis II comprises only personality disorders and mental retardation.

> These conditions occupy their own Axis because they are considered

> unresponsive to talk therapy or drug therapy: they are untreatable. " Cluster

> B " (the dramatic and erratic pds) includes bpd, histrionic pd, narcissistic

> pd and antisocial personality disorder (aspd was earlier termed " sociopathic

> pd " or " psychopathic pd. " )

>

> Re the legal system as it pertains to mental illness, IF I understand what

> I've read correctly, this is the deal:

>

> Those with personality disorder are considered " legally sane " because they

> are not psychotic: they ARE connected with reality and they know the

> difference between right from wrong. PD individuals are therefor accountable

> for their actions and suitable to stand trial if they commit a crime.

>

> The word " insanity " is purely a legal term, not a medical term.

>

> Individuals who have psychotic disorders (like schizophrenia) are not

> connected with reality. While in a psychotic state, a person is considered

> incapable of comprehending that what they are doing or did is dangerous,

> illegal, lethal, etc. Psychosis is the basis for being declared " legally

> insane " and therefor not suitable to stand trial. If such a person commits a

> horrible crime they would be found " not guilty by reason of insanity " and

> (hopefully) incarcerated in an institution for the criminally insane.

>

> So on the one hand, personality disorder is a genuine mental illness, but

> on the other hand (confusingly) those with personality disorder are

> considered " legally sane " for trial purposes because they are not psychotic.

>

>

> Which is Alice-In-Wonderland level contradictory and confusing because

> " transient psychotic breaks with reality " IS a feature of borderline pd.

> Which, I suppose, is why there exists the plea/defense of " not guilty due to

> temporary insanity. "

>

> Seems that virtually nothing about mental illness is simple or

> straightforward.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > So one of the issues I'm struggling with now is whether or not my mother

> is

> > really mentally ill. Watching the recent trial of a man who kidnapped a

> > young girl and made her his wife, claiming it was ordained by God, that

> took

> > place in my community has been kind of an external version of my internal

> > struggle. He was declared a (help me Annie with the terms) Cluster B

> > mentally ill guy, possiblly a sociopath. They decided he knew what he was

> > doing was wrong but did it anyway. He was found guilty.

> >

> > Kind of sad that such a sick sick man would remind me of my nada. . . But

> > anyway, I don't fully have my arms around it yet, but I believe in my

> mind

> > I'm going to issue my own verdict - my nada, guilty without the excuse of

> > insanity. She just did not care about society's rules. She would have

> eaten

> > her own daughter alive if she got hungry enough (ran out of tootsie

> rolls).

> >

> > I'd love to hear your thoughts.

> >

> > Girlscout

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

In my nada's case, she has said many, many times to me that SHE is one of only

TWO perfect human beings on this planet - she and my one friend I call " Pip "

because she is one. Pip means well and has as heart of gold - very giving and

caring, but will tell me 'I helped old Mrs. So and So and she's a pain in the

ass! So that's worth 10 rungs on the ladder to heaven " . She doesn't act that

way with me when she helps me with nada on those rare occasions (she's one of

three friends left that I know down there - all the others have moved to various

parts of the country) but anyway my nada thinks they're 'perfect' and 'don't

need to be here on this earth' and 'should be in heaven as angels' . My nada is

HARDLY perfect for sure obviously as she was severely BPD all of my life and did

horrendous things to me and others who came upon her life path. She attempted

suicide twice and I saved her twice. The first time when I was only 12 and

that's a horrendous thing to have to live through at that age for any child.

She had taken a prescription drug overdose (pain killers) at the time - downed

the whole bottle. What prompted this? My father who had just given her the

money to buy new winter coats a week earlier for he and I, saw a black coat with

rhinestone buttons trimmed with a mink collar, cuffs and hem with a matching

mink hat and she wanted it. My father had said to her at the time, " You just

bought a winter coat for yourself and Marilyn last week so the answer is no.

You WANT it but you don't NEED it. " She went on and on about how you don't want

your wife to look like a PAUPER in a cloth coat at church now do you - for

'Marilyn's sake'. My father remained adamant he was not giving her the $250 at

the time to buy that coat and she was so angry she lashed back with 'if you

don't give me money for that coat, I will kill myself'. Of course he didn't

believe her and not wanting to argue with her, which he never liked to do as it

was fruitless once she made up her mind about anything or got in 'one of those

moods', he stormed out and went next door to visit his sister Helen leaving me

there with nada. I went in the rec room to avoid dealing with nada - my little

sanctuary as I didn't have my own bedroom (a two bedroom house - my bedroom

being given to my godfather who was a millionaire who boarded with us since I

was born when he was in our town at the business he was Vice President of). My

nada collected at the time I found out years later $350 a week when he WAS there

and $250 a week when he wasn't there which was considerable $ for 1962 and would

still be considered a lot of money for one room and two meals a day, but none of

us knew then that my nada and godfather were having an affair right under my

father's nose as Dad was working very long hours continually to satisfy my

nada's need for more and more material possessions as well as private singing

lessons, dancing lessons and saxophone lessons for me so I would become " the

first female saxophone member in Lawrence Welk's band' and 'then she'd be proud

of me'. No matter that I didn't LIKE these lessons and had no interest in them

except for the singing lessons which were fun but I definitely didn't have the

voice! So nada had the $ for that coat anyway and just 'wanted' the $ from my

father since she received all the $ from my godfather and my father never saw a

dime of it. She even lied to my father that she was only getting half of the

money she was getting. Only years later after my godfather passed did I learn

the truth from nada about how much money he was actually giving her all that

time plus jewelry, all my clothes and toys on holidays. Anyway I heard a thump

on what would have been my parents' bedroom floor after my father had left of

course and ran up to find nada unconscious on the floor next to their bed with

the empty bottle of prescription painkillers next to her. As nada was

unresponsive of course to my 'Mom?', I ran across the street to Mrs. to

tell her as she was a nurse. She ran across the street with me, told me to go

next door to get my father because nada was unconscious and we had to take her

to the hospital. (At that time our small town did not have an ambulance service

of their own believe it or not and we shared one with the next larger city but

that was too slow under circumstances like this as they were overburdened with

their own calls). So my father picked her up and carried her to his car,

putting her in the backseat while we all rode in the front. I remember I kept

asking if Mommy was going to be alright. Part of me wanted her to survive

because she WAS my Mom and part of me wanted her to go. They pumped her stomach

and she survived of course releasing her without treatment as 'accidental drug

overdose'. Accidental??? No.

When I was 43 years old it happened again. This time I don't know what she and

my stepfather (another story - she was running around with yet another man -

her boss and my father caught her throwing her out when I was two months from

being 16) and anyway she called me in a drugged stupor saying, " Just say goodbye

- just say goodbye - you love (my then husband), you don't love me - you

love - you don't love me. I'm sorry I left you when you were 16. I'm

sorry I left you when you were 16. " I tried to keep her talking so that my

stepfather would find her as she lived half an hour from my husband and I but of

course he didn't. He was outside gardening when it happened and a bloody mess

from a fight they had had prior to that. I wound up running out when my husband

came home from work, hopping in his car and telling him we had to go up to

nada's and Eddie's house and why. My husband was a volunteer EMT at the time in

our town and I once again wanted to 'save her'. Well my stepfather wasn't

surprised she had done that because 'oh again?! She does that once a month! No

big deal! I just stick my finger down her throat, make her vomit and walk her

around until she comes out of it' was his response. My husband could see her

motionless body on their bed barefoot and after a few bangs on the door 'Mom are

you alright' and no response, told my stepfather he was breaking down the door

to get to her and he didn't CARE that my stepfather kept saying 'I don't want

the ambulance called because I don't want the neighbors to know'. Her pulse was

thready when he got in there and after the ambulance got there and we followed

it to the hospital he said 'you better pray that they don't pull over to do CPR

on her on route because if they do, she's a goner. "

The bottom line to all this is that no one in their right mind attempts suicide

and obviously BPD is a mental illness for that reason alone.