Re: is BPD really mental illness?

[Guest guest]

I'm not familiar with the case you mentioned, but yes, in the current edition of

the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (of mental illnesses), the DSM-IV,

borderline personality disorder is categorized as an " Axis II, Cluster B " mental

illness.

Axis II comprises only personality disorders and mental retardation.

These conditions occupy their own Axis because they are considered unresponsive

to talk therapy or drug therapy: they are untreatable. " Cluster B " (the dramatic

and erratic pds) includes bpd, histrionic pd, narcissistic pd and antisocial

personality disorder (aspd was earlier termed " sociopathic pd " or " psychopathic

pd. " )

Re the legal system as it pertains to mental illness, IF I understand what I've

read correctly, this is the deal:

Those with personality disorder are considered " legally sane " because they are

not psychotic: they ARE connected with reality and they know the difference

between right from wrong. PD individuals are therefor accountable for their

actions and suitable to stand trial if they commit a crime.

The word " insanity " is purely a legal term, not a medical term.

Individuals who have psychotic disorders (like schizophrenia) are not connected

with reality. While in a psychotic state, a person is considered incapable of

comprehending that what they are doing or did is dangerous, illegal, lethal,

etc. Psychosis is the basis for being declared " legally insane " and therefor

not suitable to stand trial. If such a person commits a horrible crime they

would be found " not guilty by reason of insanity " and (hopefully) incarcerated

in an institution for the criminally insane.

So on the one hand, personality disorder is a genuine mental illness, but on the

other hand (confusingly) those with personality disorder are considered " legally

sane " for trial purposes because they are not psychotic.

Which is Alice-In-Wonderland level contradictory and confusing because

" transient psychotic breaks with reality " IS a feature of borderline pd. Which,

I suppose, is why there exists the plea/defense of " not guilty due to temporary

insanity. "

Seems that virtually nothing about mental illness is simple or straightforward.

-Annie

>

> So one of the issues I'm struggling with now is whether or not my mother is

> really mentally ill. Watching the recent trial of a man who kidnapped a

> young girl and made her his wife, claiming it was ordained by God, that took

> place in my community has been kind of an external version of my internal

> struggle. He was declared a (help me Annie with the terms) Cluster B

> mentally ill guy, possiblly a sociopath. They decided he knew what he was

> doing was wrong but did it anyway. He was found guilty.

>

> Kind of sad that such a sick sick man would remind me of my nada. . . But

> anyway, I don't fully have my arms around it yet, but I believe in my mind

> I'm going to issue my own verdict - my nada, guilty without the excuse of

> insanity. She just did not care about society's rules. She would have eaten

> her own daughter alive if she got hungry enough (ran out of tootsie rolls).

>

> I'd love to hear your thoughts.

>

> Girlscout

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well, my opinion is yes, it is a mental illness. It's not quite the same as

with other mental illnesses though because I really believe that a lot of

what causes BPD & possibly other cluster B's is shaped by life experience.

In the case of BPD, most likely trauma. Again, I am in no way shape or

form an expert on this, just my own opinion.

But like another post here was discussing how there may very well be brain

changes with BPD, that's pretty profound. I have read other studies that

also support brain changes in trauma. It's amazing, sad & strange all in

one package.

I think about what I've been through with my nada. The stress (yep,

hormones & chemicals released into the body), fear (more of the same) and

hell, even physical trauma... is it possible that with a constant barrage of

chemicals & just flat out craziness that it has changed my brain? I think

so. Again, I can't describe it accurately enough because I'm just not that

informed, but I do think my PTSD brain is changed from the repeated traumas

I had to live through. Does that mean I can't take control & retrain my

amazing brain? Nope! The human brain is so complex, so amazing &

beautiful... yes, there is hope for retraining my brain, and I think even

nadas. But, that is her choice... to be honest & get help or not to.

I do think there is something physiological happening to us & to them.

Probably on a very small macro scale. Interestingly enough, I learned

through one project I had to do for school that adult survivors of child

abuse are twice as likely as the general population to have gastrointestinal

problems. Why is that? Something is happening, it's not just psychosomatic

(all in our heads).

I also think there is a connection between some other health issues &

stress/trauma. It's something I hope to one day learn more about.

(Example: fibromyalgia & CFS figures in trauma victims)

Sorry if this doesn't make a lick of sense. I'm so tired today and feel

like crapola. lol. Hopefully someone else who makes more sense than me

will reply. And like I said, this is just my own theory, I could be waaaay

way off track.

Mia

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 9:42 AM, Girlscout Cowboy <girlscout.cowboy@...

> wrote:

>

>

> So one of the issues I'm struggling with now is whether or not my mother is

> really mentally ill. Watching the recent trial of a man who kidnapped a

> young girl and made her his wife, claiming it was ordained by God, that

> took

> place in my community has been kind of an external version of my internal

> struggle. He was declared a (help me Annie with the terms) Cluster B

> mentally ill guy, possiblly a sociopath. They decided he knew what he was

> doing was wrong but did it anyway. He was found guilty.

>

> Kind of sad that such a sick sick man would remind me of my nada. . . But

> anyway, I don't fully have my arms around it yet, but I believe in my mind

> I'm going to issue my own verdict - my nada, guilty without the excuse of

> insanity. She just did not care about society's rules. She would have eaten

> her own daughter alive if she got hungry enough (ran out of tootsie rolls).

>

> I'd love to hear your thoughts.

>

> Girlscout

>

>

[Guest guest]

That case is pretty much national news. There was a segment last night

on Grace, which I watched just long enough to key in on their use

of the term BPD, because otherwise I cannot stand Grace.

But there was a case there of a mother , angry at a divorce that left

dad with custody of her teen daughters, who cut both thier throats, and

calmly called 911. One daughter died. And one of the talking heads

mentioned that the Mom had BPD.

One can debate this endlessly , but a couple of observations.

BP s, by and large, unless they are experiencing a psychotic break, are

aware of their actions, and aware of right, wrong, and hurting others.

They simply don t give a shit. No, that is not right. In their system

of values, no pain or abuse of another, including their children,

outweighs their own needs. If you have to hurt in order for them to

get their itch scrated so be it.

Does a mental illness absolve one of responsibility for abhorent or

unpleasant actions? Mental illness covers a broad sprectrum of

conditions. Depression is a valid diagnosis from the DSM. It can, and

does, admittedly, make me a cranky old bear. I snarl and snap and

pout. Not my best side.

The depression may be the reason for it, but it still hurts those who

experience it. And I still owe them an apology.

One who is so delusional that he hears God telling him, from out of a

water pitcher, to do something that is divorced from reality may in fact

not realize what he is doing , or to whom.

On the other hand, one who is obsessive compulsive may be aware that his

actions are out of the norm, but find it difficult to refrain.

An drunk driver, who kills without remembering, was coherent and aware

when he began to drink with car keys in his pocket. If the results of

his actions end up in a death, he is still responsible. He may be an

alcoholic, but he can make a decision to make sure he is unable to drive

once he is drunk. He chooses not to. Sucks to be him.

Any addict in recovery will tell you, an essential part of recovery and

sobriety is accepting responsibility for one s actions. He may

acknowledge that the addiction was the driving force, but accepts that

the choices and outcomes were still his.

A wiser man than me proposed that, since insane is a legal definition of

whether one discerns right or wrong, there needs to be a legal verdict:

guilty, but insane.

Not guilty by reason of insanity is an inane oxymoron. Did the murderer

with delusions NOT kill his victim? No, he killed, the victim is dead,

and he did it. His actions are such that he is guilty of murder. The

fact that his insanity prevented him from fully understanding at the

time does not change his actions, or responsibility for it. Give him

his thorazine in prison.

Which provides incentive in the next observation: Often a psycho or

schizo who does violence, does so while voluntarily stopping his anti

psychotics because he does not like the, admittedly severe, side

effects. So, like the drunk who drives to the bar to start drinking, he

chose his comfort over the safety of others. If his comfort results

violence , he is responsible.

In the case of the man who kidnapped a 12 year old girl and made her his

" wife " , claiming God told him to is, IMHO , full of shit. He is a

mean, obsessed son of a bitch. God didnt tell his wife to assist him

in grabbing a second one. He had a very convenient outlet for his

meanness, and his desire to use a pretty little blond girl as he chose

for months. He was, just as they said, a sociopath. Not that he didnt

know it was wrong, but that he didnt care. He wanted it, he took it,

and that constituted enough of a law.

And in that, he was very much like a BP.

I maintain that BP s are all, to some extent, sociopathic .

If your mother is a BP, then yes, she is mentally ill. That provides

you with a reason, and an understanding. It does not provide her with

an excuse, nor you with a justification.

You do not have to say, oh moms sick so its ok.

As you stated, She just did not care about society's rules. Very true.

They understand that something is not right. They can, because some do,

choose to respond to therapy and improve.

Most, as one therapist put it about my mom, are " pouting because she

doesnt want to participate. " 3 year olds can grow up. It sucks. It s

hard. But they choose to stay with what they know, rather than do the

hard thing and protect us from the life of a KO.

IMHO.

Doug

[Guest guest]

I don't know if BPD is a mental illness although I feel that people suffering

from BPD can be very delusional and paranoid with a some sort of demensia and

extreme mood swings. Does dementia or derealization happens uder extrem stress

that they feel or unconciously create, maybe, I'm not sure.

Also, not all people suffering from BPD are the same although almost all have

some kind of distorted way of thinking and behaving. And that's normal for them.

They justify their actions solely on their painful emotions and they find the

blame in their kids, if not, the queen of England.