Re: Philisophical vs Practical

[Guest guest]

Well put, Doug.

And to me the key point is that the child of a disturbed, abusive or negligent

parent is in a unique position. The reason we are here in this group and

struggling with all this, is because the child's bond to the parent is like no

other.

A human infant/small child is programmed to attach like super-glue to their

primary care-giver: its as ingrained in our genetic makeup as breathing.

Even if the primary care-giver is unfit to be a parent, is abusive or negligent,

the infant/child has no option but to bond with/attach to/love that person

because its hardwired into us. Battered toddlers scream in fear at being taken

away from the mother who just beat them. The kindly CPS worker is a stranger;

the toddler screams to be given back into the familiar arms of the mother who

just covered her little body with bruises.

The parent/child bond is so strong on the child's part that it can be

counter-intuitive and even counter-survival.

So, even though as older children/teens/young adults we understand on an

intellectual level that our parents are toxic to us, its nearly impossible to

detach and walk away from them as adults. Instead, as you point out, we adapt

to the abuse and even blame ourselves for it as a coping mechanism in order to

remain attached.

It can take well into middle age for a lot of us to break through this

hard-wired programming and understand that the coping mechanisms that helped us

survive as children are now counter-productive and remaining attached is hurting

us.

Dealing with having a mentally ill parent is going to vary from person to person

because the abuse from each mentally ill parent takes different forms:

child-like clingy dependence, sexual molestation or neglect of grandchildren,

domineering control, financial exploitation, endless demands for attention,

obsessive stalking, revenge behaviors, suicide or other self-harming threats,

false accusations against the adult child intended to harm their reputation,

attempts to undermine the adult child's marriage, etc. The list is endless.

As you point out, its difficult, but we can achieve emotional detachment from

our abusive, mentally ill parent(s) and achieve self-preservation. Yes, it is

possible, and it doesn't make you a bad human being to protect yourself and your

family from abuse and exploitation.

-Annie

>

> Guys,

>

> We ve had a lot of discussion in recent threads about the philisophical

> aspects of BPD. Can they control it, are they bad people, are they

> responsible, what do I have to do to be a good son or daughter.

>

> These are all very interesting, and some we will never solve. Can they

> control it? I think yes. Some think no. Neither of us can prove it,

> nor can professionals.

>

> But the practical realities still exist.

>

> Their sickness affects us. Their behaviors make a normal healthy life

> difficult for us. Are we obligated, by virtue of our birth, to accept

> being twisted, warped, and abused because , perhaps, it s not thier

> fault, they can t control it , or they are sick.

[Guest guest]

Well put, Doug.

And to me the key point is that the child of a disturbed, abusive or negligent

parent is in a unique position. The reason we are here in this group and

struggling with all this, is because the child's bond to the parent is like no

other.

A human infant/small child is programmed to attach like super-glue to their

primary care-giver: its as ingrained in our genetic makeup as breathing.

Even if the primary care-giver is unfit to be a parent, is abusive or negligent,

the infant/child has no option but to bond with/attach to/love that person

because its hardwired into us. Battered toddlers scream in fear at being taken

away from the mother who just beat them. The kindly CPS worker is a stranger;

the toddler screams to be given back into the familiar arms of the mother who

just covered her little body with bruises.

The parent/child bond is so strong on the child's part that it can be

counter-intuitive and even counter-survival.

So, even though as older children/teens/young adults we understand on an

intellectual level that our parents are toxic to us, its nearly impossible to

detach and walk away from them as adults. Instead, as you point out, we adapt

to the abuse and even blame ourselves for it as a coping mechanism in order to

remain attached.

It can take well into middle age for a lot of us to break through this

hard-wired programming and understand that the coping mechanisms that helped us

survive as children are now counter-productive and remaining attached is hurting

us.

Dealing with having a mentally ill parent is going to vary from person to person

because the abuse from each mentally ill parent takes different forms:

child-like clingy dependence, sexual molestation or neglect of grandchildren,

domineering control, financial exploitation, endless demands for attention,

obsessive stalking, revenge behaviors, suicide or other self-harming threats,

false accusations against the adult child intended to harm their reputation,

attempts to undermine the adult child's marriage, etc. The list is endless.

As you point out, its difficult, but we can achieve emotional detachment from

our abusive, mentally ill parent(s) and achieve self-preservation. Yes, it is

possible, and it doesn't make you a bad human being to protect yourself and your

family from abuse and exploitation.

-Annie

>

> Guys,

>

> We ve had a lot of discussion in recent threads about the philisophical

> aspects of BPD. Can they control it, are they bad people, are they

> responsible, what do I have to do to be a good son or daughter.

>

> These are all very interesting, and some we will never solve. Can they

> control it? I think yes. Some think no. Neither of us can prove it,

> nor can professionals.

>

> But the practical realities still exist.

>

> Their sickness affects us. Their behaviors make a normal healthy life

> difficult for us. Are we obligated, by virtue of our birth, to accept

> being twisted, warped, and abused because , perhaps, it s not thier

> fault, they can t control it , or they are sick.

[Guest guest]

I feel like you wrote this for me.

Sigh, reading your message makes me wonder if I'm in denial. My understanding of

my mother's possible illness of BPD is so new, and I feel like she has some kind

of recognition that things are wrong that I really want to try to at least have

one conversation with her--not necessarily about BPD, that would never work, but

about how angry she was on Christmas night. I feel like I have to try, but

everything I'm hearing tells me that it's a useless conversation. But if it's

about me and my health, and I need to at least have the conversation and set up

some boundaries at the same time, shouldn't I do it?

[Guest guest]

I feel like you wrote this for me.

Sigh, reading your message makes me wonder if I'm in denial. My understanding of

my mother's possible illness of BPD is so new, and I feel like she has some kind

of recognition that things are wrong that I really want to try to at least have

one conversation with her--not necessarily about BPD, that would never work, but

about how angry she was on Christmas night. I feel like I have to try, but

everything I'm hearing tells me that it's a useless conversation. But if it's

about me and my health, and I need to at least have the conversation and set up

some boundaries at the same time, shouldn't I do it?

[Guest guest]

I feel like you wrote this for me.

Sigh, reading your message makes me wonder if I'm in denial. My understanding of

my mother's possible illness of BPD is so new, and I feel like she has some kind

of recognition that things are wrong that I really want to try to at least have

one conversation with her--not necessarily about BPD, that would never work, but

about how angry she was on Christmas night. I feel like I have to try, but

everything I'm hearing tells me that it's a useless conversation. But if it's

about me and my health, and I need to at least have the conversation and set up

some boundaries at the same time, shouldn't I do it?

[Guest guest]

Bravo Doug! How very poignant and just... touching. And of course very

true. I like what you said about what WE can do. I think those should be

vows or an oath to ourselves as KOs.

Marvelous, thanks for writing this. You really are a wonderful writer =)

Mia

>

>

> Guys,

>

> We ve had a lot of discussion in recent threads about the philisophical

> aspects of BPD. Can they control it, are they bad people, are they

> responsible, what do I have to do to be a good son or daughter.

>

> These are all very interesting, and some we will never solve. Can they

> control it? I think yes. Some think no. Neither of us can prove it,

> nor can professionals.

>

> But the practical realities still exist.

>

> Their sickness affects us. Their behaviors make a normal healthy life

> difficult for us. Are we obligated, by virtue of our birth, to accept

> being twisted, warped, and abused because , perhaps, it s not thier

> fault, they can t control it , or they are sick.

>

> People with Hanson s disease ( Leprosy) are quarantined in colonies.

> People with TB are isolated and not permitted to work in certain areas.

>

> These are cruel realities, but they are realities.

>

> As children of parents with BPD, the question for us , I believe,

> becomes , not as the FOG tells us, what can I do to fix Mom?

> Rather, it becomes, what can I do to be as healthy as possible, given

> that I was raised by, and now have an adult parent with BPD?

>

> All of us, every single one of us, has a fond dream of seeing Mom wake

> up. We imagine how it would be if one day she realized what she had

> been, and apologized to us , vowed to change, got help and really became

> that normal Mom we always wanted. We dreamed of a Mom where hysterics

> were not the norm, where holidays could be a pleasure , where, as 6 year

> old children, we did not have to walk on eggshells to keep Mom from

> going off. We blamed ourselves for not finding the way to make all that

> happen.

>

> But now we know, as informed adults, that even counselors and

> psychiatrists shudder at the prospect of trying to initiate changes in a

> BP. We were never going to do it as children. We are never going to do

> it as adults. The key to change and healing for them, is entirely with

> them.

>

> So what choices to we have?

>

> The choices of the child were few. Adapt, find a way to reconcile it

> all that we could live with. This is usually a settlement that created

> pain and emotional illness in us. In some cases, the settlement exacts

> a price so severe, we bankrupt the store to achieve it. In

> psychological terms, that is psychosis. And being the child of a BP can

> lead us there. Short of that, we deal with depression, FOG, anxiety,

> emotional and sexual dysfunctions, addictions; well, the list is long.

> Then, we had no good choice. No adult was going to come rescue us. So

> as adults, all the emotional pains I ve just listed were part of the

> package we could expect because of being a KO.

>

> But now, as an adult child of a Borderline, though the new ones, those

> just realizing who we are, who are parents are, those just beginning

> the journey don t realize it, we now do have choices. They are few,

> They are hard. But these are the choices we have in the real world.

>

> We can live our lives in the FOG. We can let our lives be controlled by

> an emotionally damaged, personality disordered person who will, we

> understand, manipulate us to meet unending, impossible, unrealistic

> needs. We can accept that we will never be good enough, never come up

> to the requirements that they place on us, but that they will pressure

> us with FOG to meet them anyway, all their lives. We can understand and

> accept that we will never be permitted to have anything, money,

> relationships, peace, because our BP parents will demand what we have,

> or demand that we invest and spend what we have to try and fill that

> endless Hoover vacuum of their needs. We can feel fear, obligation, and

> guilt to continue this until they die, regardless of the consequences to

> ourselves, our children, our mates, our friends, and our health.

>

> Whether it is their fault or not is moot to this choice. It may or may

> not be their fault, but it is surely not OUR fault. But the choice to

> change is all theirs, and if they will not make it, and I must say I

> have not heard from one single KO on this board who says, oh yes, my BP

> mom or dad is in treatment by Dr McLuhan with DBT and is doing very

> well. I m open to correction, but our collective experience here seems

> to be the same as mine: Mom was actively BPD till the day of her death.

>

> So this is the choice we have made all our lives. This is the choice

> all of us are making at the point of our epiphany: Borderline!

> Yes, that is what has been going on all my life with mom! This is where

> most of us are at the point of coming into this group. And this is

> where I was for the first 48 years of my life.

>

> Or

>

> We can determine that there is nothing we can do for them, but much we

> can do for ourselves.

>

> We can educate ourselves about Borderline Personality Disorder, and

> learn what is going to happen with them.

>

> We can establish boundaries in our lives of what would be normal with

> any health relationship, and enforce them with our BP parent.

>

> We can understand the games and manipulations they use, and refuse to

> play.

>

> We can determine that our health, and emotions, and relationships, and

> kids, take precedence over our BP parent.

>

> We can, despite the pain it causes, and the push back from our BP parent

> keep pressing with these changes.

>

> We can seek thru therapy and solid relationships to find our own

> healing, whether our BP parent chooses to do so or not.

>

> We never give up hope that they may choose to heal, but we do not let

> that hope effect our choice to heal.

>

> These are our choices.

>

> I can t make the choice for you, nor can you make them for me. It is

> our own choice.

>

> My choice, and my hope for you, is my traditional closing on this group:

>

> May we all heal.

>

> Doug

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bravo Doug! How very poignant and just... touching. And of course very

true. I like what you said about what WE can do. I think those should be

vows or an oath to ourselves as KOs.

Marvelous, thanks for writing this. You really are a wonderful writer =)

Mia

>

>

> Guys,

>

> We ve had a lot of discussion in recent threads about the philisophical

> aspects of BPD. Can they control it, are they bad people, are they

> responsible, what do I have to do to be a good son or daughter.

>

> These are all very interesting, and some we will never solve. Can they

> control it? I think yes. Some think no. Neither of us can prove it,

> nor can professionals.

>

> But the practical realities still exist.

>

> Their sickness affects us. Their behaviors make a normal healthy life

> difficult for us. Are we obligated, by virtue of our birth, to accept

> being twisted, warped, and abused because , perhaps, it s not thier

> fault, they can t control it , or they are sick.

>

> People with Hanson s disease ( Leprosy) are quarantined in colonies.

> People with TB are isolated and not permitted to work in certain areas.

>

> These are cruel realities, but they are realities.

>

> As children of parents with BPD, the question for us , I believe,

> becomes , not as the FOG tells us, what can I do to fix Mom?

> Rather, it becomes, what can I do to be as healthy as possible, given

> that I was raised by, and now have an adult parent with BPD?

>

> All of us, every single one of us, has a fond dream of seeing Mom wake

> up. We imagine how it would be if one day she realized what she had

> been, and apologized to us , vowed to change, got help and really became

> that normal Mom we always wanted. We dreamed of a Mom where hysterics

> were not the norm, where holidays could be a pleasure , where, as 6 year

> old children, we did not have to walk on eggshells to keep Mom from

> going off. We blamed ourselves for not finding the way to make all that

> happen.

>

> But now we know, as informed adults, that even counselors and

> psychiatrists shudder at the prospect of trying to initiate changes in a

> BP. We were never going to do it as children. We are never going to do

> it as adults. The key to change and healing for them, is entirely with

> them.

>

> So what choices to we have?

>

> The choices of the child were few. Adapt, find a way to reconcile it

> all that we could live with. This is usually a settlement that created

> pain and emotional illness in us. In some cases, the settlement exacts

> a price so severe, we bankrupt the store to achieve it. In

> psychological terms, that is psychosis. And being the child of a BP can

> lead us there. Short of that, we deal with depression, FOG, anxiety,

> emotional and sexual dysfunctions, addictions; well, the list is long.

> Then, we had no good choice. No adult was going to come rescue us. So

> as adults, all the emotional pains I ve just listed were part of the

> package we could expect because of being a KO.

>

> But now, as an adult child of a Borderline, though the new ones, those

> just realizing who we are, who are parents are, those just beginning

> the journey don t realize it, we now do have choices. They are few,

> They are hard. But these are the choices we have in the real world.

>

> We can live our lives in the FOG. We can let our lives be controlled by

> an emotionally damaged, personality disordered person who will, we

> understand, manipulate us to meet unending, impossible, unrealistic

> needs. We can accept that we will never be good enough, never come up

> to the requirements that they place on us, but that they will pressure

> us with FOG to meet them anyway, all their lives. We can understand and

> accept that we will never be permitted to have anything, money,

> relationships, peace, because our BP parents will demand what we have,

> or demand that we invest and spend what we have to try and fill that

> endless Hoover vacuum of their needs. We can feel fear, obligation, and

> guilt to continue this until they die, regardless of the consequences to

> ourselves, our children, our mates, our friends, and our health.

>

> Whether it is their fault or not is moot to this choice. It may or may

> not be their fault, but it is surely not OUR fault. But the choice to

> change is all theirs, and if they will not make it, and I must say I

> have not heard from one single KO on this board who says, oh yes, my BP

> mom or dad is in treatment by Dr McLuhan with DBT and is doing very

> well. I m open to correction, but our collective experience here seems

> to be the same as mine: Mom was actively BPD till the day of her death.

>

> So this is the choice we have made all our lives. This is the choice

> all of us are making at the point of our epiphany: Borderline!

> Yes, that is what has been going on all my life with mom! This is where

> most of us are at the point of coming into this group. And this is

> where I was for the first 48 years of my life.

>

> Or

>

> We can determine that there is nothing we can do for them, but much we

> can do for ourselves.

>

> We can educate ourselves about Borderline Personality Disorder, and

> learn what is going to happen with them.

>

> We can establish boundaries in our lives of what would be normal with

> any health relationship, and enforce them with our BP parent.

>

> We can understand the games and manipulations they use, and refuse to

> play.

>

> We can determine that our health, and emotions, and relationships, and

> kids, take precedence over our BP parent.

>

> We can, despite the pain it causes, and the push back from our BP parent

> keep pressing with these changes.

>

> We can seek thru therapy and solid relationships to find our own

> healing, whether our BP parent chooses to do so or not.

>

> We never give up hope that they may choose to heal, but we do not let

> that hope effect our choice to heal.

>

> These are our choices.

>

> I can t make the choice for you, nor can you make them for me. It is

> our own choice.

>

> My choice, and my hope for you, is my traditional closing on this group:

>

> May we all heal.

>

> Doug

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I haven't been keeping up on the board over the holidays very well but I think

what you are feeling is very normal . I spent over a year trying to talk

things out with my entire FOO with counseling and all. I think this part of how

you manage your interactions with your bpd parent is very individual to your

situation and can take time. If you have things you need to say, it is your

choice.

I think those of us that have gone through this struggle for a long time just

like to give out a big emotional warning that you most likely won't get what you

are looking for from your bpd parent.

I think the same choice goes with the level of contact you have with your

parent. It was very empowering to me to be reminded that I had the ability to

make the choices I needed to make to be happy and protect my family.

peace,

patinage

>

> I feel like you wrote this for me.

>

> Sigh, reading your message makes me wonder if I'm in denial. My understanding

of my mother's possible illness of BPD is so new, and I feel like she has some

kind of recognition that things are wrong that I really want to try to at least

have one conversation with her--not necessarily about BPD, that would never

work, but about how angry she was on Christmas night. I feel like I have to try,

but everything I'm hearing tells me that it's a useless conversation. But if

it's about me and my health, and I need to at least have the conversation and

set up some boundaries at the same time, shouldn't I do it?

>

[Guest guest]

I haven't been keeping up on the board over the holidays very well but I think

what you are feeling is very normal . I spent over a year trying to talk

things out with my entire FOO with counseling and all. I think this part of how

you manage your interactions with your bpd parent is very individual to your

situation and can take time. If you have things you need to say, it is your

choice.

I think those of us that have gone through this struggle for a long time just

like to give out a big emotional warning that you most likely won't get what you

are looking for from your bpd parent.

I think the same choice goes with the level of contact you have with your

parent. It was very empowering to me to be reminded that I had the ability to

make the choices I needed to make to be happy and protect my family.

peace,

patinage

>

> I feel like you wrote this for me.

>

> Sigh, reading your message makes me wonder if I'm in denial. My understanding

of my mother's possible illness of BPD is so new, and I feel like she has some

kind of recognition that things are wrong that I really want to try to at least

have one conversation with her--not necessarily about BPD, that would never

work, but about how angry she was on Christmas night. I feel like I have to try,

but everything I'm hearing tells me that it's a useless conversation. But if

it's about me and my health, and I need to at least have the conversation and

set up some boundaries at the same time, shouldn't I do it?

>

[Guest guest]

I haven't been keeping up on the board over the holidays very well but I think

what you are feeling is very normal . I spent over a year trying to talk

things out with my entire FOO with counseling and all. I think this part of how

you manage your interactions with your bpd parent is very individual to your

situation and can take time. If you have things you need to say, it is your

choice.

I think those of us that have gone through this struggle for a long time just

like to give out a big emotional warning that you most likely won't get what you

are looking for from your bpd parent.

I think the same choice goes with the level of contact you have with your

parent. It was very empowering to me to be reminded that I had the ability to

make the choices I needed to make to be happy and protect my family.

peace,

patinage

>

> I feel like you wrote this for me.

>

> Sigh, reading your message makes me wonder if I'm in denial. My understanding

of my mother's possible illness of BPD is so new, and I feel like she has some

kind of recognition that things are wrong that I really want to try to at least

have one conversation with her--not necessarily about BPD, that would never

work, but about how angry she was on Christmas night. I feel like I have to try,

but everything I'm hearing tells me that it's a useless conversation. But if

it's about me and my health, and I need to at least have the conversation and

set up some boundaries at the same time, shouldn't I do it?

>

[Guest guest]

I think I'm addicted to facebook, I keep looking for the " like " button =)

Like what you said, patinage and agree 110%

Mia

>

>

> I haven't been keeping up on the board over the holidays very well but I

> think what you are feeling is very normal . I spent over a year trying

> to talk things out with my entire FOO with counseling and all. I think this

> part of how you manage your interactions with your bpd parent is very

> individual to your situation and can take time. If you have things you need

> to say, it is your choice.

>

> I think those of us that have gone through this struggle for a long time

> just like to give out a big emotional warning that you most likely won't get

> what you are looking for from your bpd parent.

>

> I think the same choice goes with the level of contact you have with your

> parent. It was very empowering to me to be reminded that I had the ability

> to make the choices I needed to make to be happy and protect my family.

>

> peace,

> patinage

>

>

>

> >

> > I feel like you wrote this for me.

> >

> > Sigh, reading your message makes me wonder if I'm in denial. My

> understanding of my mother's possible illness of BPD is so new, and I feel

> like she has some kind of recognition that things are wrong that I really

> want to try to at least have one conversation with her--not necessarily

> about BPD, that would never work, but about how angry she was on Christmas

> night. I feel like I have to try, but everything I'm hearing tells me that

> it's a useless conversation. But if it's about me and my health, and I need

> to at least have the conversation and set up some boundaries at the same

> time, shouldn't I do it?

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Absorbing all this new information about mental illness and personality disorder

is a very big adjustment, psychologically. Its kind of like suddenly shifting

your perspective from up close to miles away in an instant, and that can be

disorienting. Plus, being " ambushed " so to speak by your mothers sudden,

extreme and frightening behaviors over Christmas was probably traumatizing.

You underwent an emotional assault. It takes time to recover from such a thing.

There is no " should " . This is not about " should " . It might take you several

days, several weeks or several months to recover from your Christmas trauma by

gradually processing what happened.

You don't have to respond, make a decision or do anything about it right away.

Its all about what feels comfortable for you, now.

There is nothing wrong about taking a " time out " from dealing with a

relationship issue, if you need to, until you've had the chance to recover from

it.

Then, its up to you. You have the right to handle this the way you want to.

You can stay in contact, or you can walk away. There is no " should. "

Just my two cents' worth.

-Annie

>

> I feel like you wrote this for me.

>

> Sigh, reading your message makes me wonder if I'm in denial. My understanding

of my mother's possible illness of BPD is so new, and I feel like she has some

kind of recognition that things are wrong that I really want to try to at least

have one conversation with her--not necessarily about BPD, that would never

work, but about how angry she was on Christmas night. I feel like I have to try,

but everything I'm hearing tells me that it's a useless conversation. But if

it's about me and my health, and I need to at least have the conversation and

set up some boundaries at the same time, shouldn't I do it?

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Annie. Your two cents are greatly appreciated. I think I really needed

to hear that.

> >

> > I feel like you wrote this for me.

> >

> > Sigh, reading your message makes me wonder if I'm in denial. My

understanding of my mother's possible illness of BPD is so new, and I feel like

she has some kind of recognition that things are wrong that I really want to try

to at least have one conversation with her--not necessarily about BPD, that

would never work, but about how angry she was on Christmas night. I feel like I

have to try, but everything I'm hearing tells me that it's a useless

conversation. But if it's about me and my health, and I need to at least have

the conversation and set up some boundaries at the same time, shouldn't I do it?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

So just to respond to Doug's comment - for me, I'm seeking to understand

whether BPD is a bad person or not because I'm in a " save vs unsafe " phase.

I'm trying to figure out who I can trust, who I should invest in and who I

should cut lose. I did not learn what was good and bad because nada did very

bad things and then dad said " but deep down, she is a good person. " He said

it every GD time!

So, that left me very confused. Is she a sick person who is good? A bad

person? etc etc. It is important that I resolve this dilema because I am

delayed in knowing who to trust, who is good, who is bad. things that I

think a lot of other people learned by the time they were in junior high. I

didn't learn them then. But my T is helping me learn them now.

So that is why I started the thread on that topic.

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 4:37 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Absorbing all this new information about mental illness and personality

> disorder is a very big adjustment, psychologically. Its kind of like

> suddenly shifting your perspective from up close to miles away in an

> instant, and that can be disorienting. Plus, being " ambushed " so to speak by

> your mothers sudden, extreme and frightening behaviors over Christmas was

> probably traumatizing.

> You underwent an emotional assault. It takes time to recover from such a

> thing.

>

> There is no " should " . This is not about " should " . It might take you several

> days, several weeks or several months to recover from your Christmas trauma

> by gradually processing what happened.

>

> You don't have to respond, make a decision or do anything about it right

> away. Its all about what feels comfortable for you, now.

>

> There is nothing wrong about taking a " time out " from dealing with a

> relationship issue, if you need to, until you've had the chance to recover

> from it.

>

> Then, its up to you. You have the right to handle this the way you want to.

> You can stay in contact, or you can walk away. There is no " should. "

>

> Just my two cents' worth.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > I feel like you wrote this for me.

> >

> > Sigh, reading your message makes me wonder if I'm in denial. My

> understanding of my mother's possible illness of BPD is so new, and I feel

> like she has some kind of recognition that things are wrong that I really

> want to try to at least have one conversation with her--not necessarily

> about BPD, that would never work, but about how angry she was on Christmas

> night. I feel like I have to try, but everything I'm hearing tells me that

> it's a useless conversation. But if it's about me and my health, and I need

> to at least have the conversation and set up some boundaries at the same

> time, shouldn't I do it?

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Re: Philisophical vs Practical

I think the question you are asking can't be answered; at least, it can't be

answered by me, because its about your mother and your history with her and your

choices about whether or not to have a relationship with her.

For my own self, I decided that I'm going to determine if *behaviors* are good

or bad from now on, no matter who is doing the behaviors. So whether the

*person* is " good " or " bad " is... irrelevant.

Instead, the relevant question is: Is this person OK for me to be around most of

the time because they are mentally healthy, have empathy, have my best interest

at heart most of the time, etc., or is this person trying to hurt me most or

half the time, or trying to use me or control me most or half the time?

What are the behaviors, and the *pattern* of behaviors this person exhibits over

time?

Only you can answer that question, and only you can decide for yourself what

negative behaviors are you willing to tolerate that are directed toward

yourself, toward your spouse and toward your little children?

-Annie

>

> So just to respond to Doug's comment - for me, I'm seeking to understand

> whether BPD is a bad person or not because I'm in a " save vs unsafe " phase.

> I'm trying to figure out who I can trust, who I should invest in and who I

> should cut lose. I did not learn what was good and bad because nada did very

> bad things and then dad said " but deep down, she is a good person. " He said

> it every GD time!

>

> So, that left me very confused. Is she a sick person who is good? A bad

> person? etc etc. It is important that I resolve this dilema because I am

> delayed in knowing who to trust, who is good, who is bad. things that I

> think a lot of other people learned by the time they were in junior high. I

> didn't learn them then. But my T is helping me learn them now.

>

> So that is why I started the thread on that topic.

[Guest guest]

Re: Philisophical vs Practical

I think the question you are asking can't be answered; at least, it can't be

answered by me, because its about your mother and your history with her and your

choices about whether or not to have a relationship with her.

For my own self, I decided that I'm going to determine if *behaviors* are good

or bad from now on, no matter who is doing the behaviors. So whether the

*person* is " good " or " bad " is... irrelevant.

Instead, the relevant question is: Is this person OK for me to be around most of

the time because they are mentally healthy, have empathy, have my best interest

at heart most of the time, etc., or is this person trying to hurt me most or

half the time, or trying to use me or control me most or half the time?

What are the behaviors, and the *pattern* of behaviors this person exhibits over

time?

Only you can answer that question, and only you can decide for yourself what

negative behaviors are you willing to tolerate that are directed toward

yourself, toward your spouse and toward your little children?

-Annie

>

> So just to respond to Doug's comment - for me, I'm seeking to understand

> whether BPD is a bad person or not because I'm in a " save vs unsafe " phase.

> I'm trying to figure out who I can trust, who I should invest in and who I

> should cut lose. I did not learn what was good and bad because nada did very

> bad things and then dad said " but deep down, she is a good person. " He said

> it every GD time!

>

> So, that left me very confused. Is she a sick person who is good? A bad

> person? etc etc. It is important that I resolve this dilema because I am

> delayed in knowing who to trust, who is good, who is bad. things that I

> think a lot of other people learned by the time they were in junior high. I

> didn't learn them then. But my T is helping me learn them now.

>

> So that is why I started the thread on that topic.

[Guest guest]

Right? Is it the person or the illness? And how do you know which is which and

when? I don't know when it's my mom or her illness behaving badly or behaving

nicely, so how do I know she's a good person? And do I even care if she's a good

person--is that really for me to judge? I don't care if she's a good person; I

just care how she treats me. And if she can't treat me, at the very least, like

a human being, then why should I spend any time with her? Why would I want to?

And why am I the bad one or made to feel bad because I don't want to spend time

with someone who treats people badly (even abuses them)?

I'm all questions and no answers.

[Guest guest]

I don't understand why anyone should be made to feel bad for

protecting him or herself from abuse. Not spending time with

parents who have BPD is protecting ourselves from abuse. (Make

no mistake, the things are nadas and fadas do to us are abuse.

Mental and emotional abuse are at least as abusive as beatings.)

My attitude is that it really doesn't matter whether it is the

person or the illness. Either way the results are the same. What

matters is that I can't change the way my nada behaves and can

only adjust how I act to minimize the damage that her actions do

to me. We protect ourselves from rabid dogs despite the fact

that it isn't the dogs' fault that they are rabid. I see no

reason not to similarly protect ourselves from people who do us

harm.

At 08:04 PM 01/04/2011 afldancer wrote:

>Right? Is it the person or the illness? And how do you know

>which is which and when? I don't know when it's my mom or her

>illness behaving badly or behaving nicely, so how do I know

>she's a good person? And do I even care if she's a good

>person--is that really for me to judge? I don't care if she's a

>good person; I just care how she treats me. And if she can't

>treat me, at the very least, like a human being, then why

>should I spend any time with her? Why would I want to? And why

>am I the bad one or made to feel bad because I don't want to

>spend time with someone who treats people badly (even abuses

>them)?

>

>I'm all questions and no answers.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

I don't understand why anyone should be made to feel bad for

protecting him or herself from abuse. Not spending time with

parents who have BPD is protecting ourselves from abuse. (Make

no mistake, the things are nadas and fadas do to us are abuse.

Mental and emotional abuse are at least as abusive as beatings.)

My attitude is that it really doesn't matter whether it is the

person or the illness. Either way the results are the same. What

matters is that I can't change the way my nada behaves and can

only adjust how I act to minimize the damage that her actions do

to me. We protect ourselves from rabid dogs despite the fact

that it isn't the dogs' fault that they are rabid. I see no

reason not to similarly protect ourselves from people who do us

harm.

At 08:04 PM 01/04/2011 afldancer wrote:

>Right? Is it the person or the illness? And how do you know

>which is which and when? I don't know when it's my mom or her

>illness behaving badly or behaving nicely, so how do I know

>she's a good person? And do I even care if she's a good

>person--is that really for me to judge? I don't care if she's a

>good person; I just care how she treats me. And if she can't

>treat me, at the very least, like a human being, then why

>should I spend any time with her? Why would I want to? And why

>am I the bad one or made to feel bad because I don't want to

>spend time with someone who treats people badly (even abuses

>them)?

>

>I'm all questions and no answers.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

I don't understand why anyone should be made to feel bad for

protecting him or herself from abuse. Not spending time with

parents who have BPD is protecting ourselves from abuse. (Make

no mistake, the things are nadas and fadas do to us are abuse.

Mental and emotional abuse are at least as abusive as beatings.)

My attitude is that it really doesn't matter whether it is the

person or the illness. Either way the results are the same. What

matters is that I can't change the way my nada behaves and can

only adjust how I act to minimize the damage that her actions do

to me. We protect ourselves from rabid dogs despite the fact

that it isn't the dogs' fault that they are rabid. I see no

reason not to similarly protect ourselves from people who do us

harm.

At 08:04 PM 01/04/2011 afldancer wrote:

>Right? Is it the person or the illness? And how do you know

>which is which and when? I don't know when it's my mom or her

>illness behaving badly or behaving nicely, so how do I know

>she's a good person? And do I even care if she's a good

>person--is that really for me to judge? I don't care if she's a

>good person; I just care how she treats me. And if she can't

>treat me, at the very least, like a human being, then why

>should I spend any time with her? Why would I want to? And why

>am I the bad one or made to feel bad because I don't want to

>spend time with someone who treats people badly (even abuses

>them)?

>

>I'm all questions and no answers.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

I think you're asking questions that are looking for simple

answers to complex problems. Whether someone is " good " or " bad "

depends on how you define those two alternatives. However you're

defining the categories, they're like asking whether something

is black or white in a world of gray. Bad people do good things

sometimes and good people do bad things. Personally, I don't

think someone who continually chooses to be abusive to others

can be called " good " but that brings us back to the question of

how much choice they have in how they act. I don't think the

answer to " good or bad? " is a question that matters. Let that be

a matter for whatever deity you believe in. What matters is how

people treat you. If they treat you badly, what does it matter

if they're " good deep down " ?

If your real question is " safe or unsafe? " I'd have to say that

nadas and fadas fall into the unsafe category. They can't be

trusted. About the only thing you can trust them to do is hurt

you again and again. Whether they'd be good people without BPD

is not relevant because BPD doesn't go away. What you need to

know is that they'll do bad things to you if you let them.

At 06:58 PM 01/04/2011 Girlscout Cowboy wrote:

>So just to respond to Doug's comment - for me, I'm seeking to

>understand

>whether BPD is a bad person or not because I'm in a " save vs

>unsafe " phase.

>I'm trying to figure out who I can trust, who I should invest

>in and who I

>should cut lose. I did not learn what was good and bad because

>nada did very

>bad things and then dad said " but deep down, she is a good

>person. " He said

>it every GD time!

>

>So, that left me very confused. Is she a sick person who is

>good? A bad

>person? etc etc. It is important that I resolve this dilema

>because I am

>delayed in knowing who to trust, who is good, who is bad.

>things that I

>think a lot of other people learned by the time they were in

>junior high. I

>didn't learn them then. But my T is helping me learn them now.

>

>So that is why I started the thread on that topic.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

I think you're asking questions that are looking for simple

answers to complex problems. Whether someone is " good " or " bad "

depends on how you define those two alternatives. However you're

defining the categories, they're like asking whether something

is black or white in a world of gray. Bad people do good things

sometimes and good people do bad things. Personally, I don't

think someone who continually chooses to be abusive to others

can be called " good " but that brings us back to the question of

how much choice they have in how they act. I don't think the

answer to " good or bad? " is a question that matters. Let that be

a matter for whatever deity you believe in. What matters is how

people treat you. If they treat you badly, what does it matter

if they're " good deep down " ?

If your real question is " safe or unsafe? " I'd have to say that

nadas and fadas fall into the unsafe category. They can't be

trusted. About the only thing you can trust them to do is hurt

you again and again. Whether they'd be good people without BPD

is not relevant because BPD doesn't go away. What you need to

know is that they'll do bad things to you if you let them.

At 06:58 PM 01/04/2011 Girlscout Cowboy wrote:

>So just to respond to Doug's comment - for me, I'm seeking to

>understand

>whether BPD is a bad person or not because I'm in a " save vs

>unsafe " phase.

>I'm trying to figure out who I can trust, who I should invest

>in and who I

>should cut lose. I did not learn what was good and bad because

>nada did very

>bad things and then dad said " but deep down, she is a good

>person. " He said

>it every GD time!

>

>So, that left me very confused. Is she a sick person who is

>good? A bad

>person? etc etc. It is important that I resolve this dilema

>because I am

>delayed in knowing who to trust, who is good, who is bad.

>things that I

>think a lot of other people learned by the time they were in

>junior high. I

>didn't learn them then. But my T is helping me learn them now.

>

>So that is why I started the thread on that topic.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

So, we may need to look at some details or work out emotions in our own lives,

but the basic idea could be summed up:

We need boundaries to protect ourselves/spouse/kids from unhealthy interactions.

This would apply across the board: from the unpleasant co-shopper at Wal-Mart to

our very own blood kin. Family or not becomes irrelevant.

We must learn the same coping skills we would use for a co-worker, boss or

neighbor. That idea does help simplify things and answers a lot of questions

about what I should do in this or that situation, hmmm?

+Coal Miner's Daughter

[Guest guest]

So, we may need to look at some details or work out emotions in our own lives,

but the basic idea could be summed up:

We need boundaries to protect ourselves/spouse/kids from unhealthy interactions.

This would apply across the board: from the unpleasant co-shopper at Wal-Mart to

our very own blood kin. Family or not becomes irrelevant.

We must learn the same coping skills we would use for a co-worker, boss or

neighbor. That idea does help simplify things and answers a lot of questions

about what I should do in this or that situation, hmmm?

+Coal Miner's Daughter

[Guest guest]

Not sure what happened on Christmas, but I haven t read all posts yet.

But in general,

Telling a BP they are BP is counterproductive, unless you are the

therapist treating them. They ll either get angry and deny it, or

embrace it and use it as an excuse for bad behavior.

You can , and should , have conversations about setting boundaries. If

she was angry and acted badly, you are certainly within your rights to

set boundaries,

eg , not in my house.

if i m at your house and you act this way I ll leave

you can be angry if you want, and so can I. But if you do this or this

while you are angry, I ll do this and this.

I will not be held hostage or bullied by your emotional hystrionics.

But make sure you know what it is exactly that you found unacceptable

behaviors. Write it out, share it with a spouse or friend or counselor.

Determine exactly what your boundaries are, that is, what are the

consequences of her future bad actions. Be very plain, direct, and

unambiguous. If there is a way to mis interpret, she ll do it.

Before you talk to her about it, be absolutely certain that you mean it,

and will enforce it. Don t bother saying it if you are not prepared to

go the distance. She will test the limits, like any child.

Don t argue with her about it. You are not having a debate, you are

informing her of certain facts. If she chooses to apologize for her

actions, fine. But the purpose is to let her know precisely what she did

that is unacceptable, that it is, in fact , unacceptablle, and what will

happen if it is repeated. Don t debate or justify it. You don t have

to, and you ll lose any arguement with her.

Be sure you set a time to do it when you are calm, and not emotional.

Do not expect her to be gracious about it. Do not expect her to

acknowledge she did wrong. Do not expect her to agree to your

boundaries.

Expect her to make you out the bad guy, and to test your limits, and to

bad mouth you as a terrible child for doing her that way.

All that said, go for it. Setting boundaries is the first step toward

saying no more FOG.

Doug

>

> I feel like you wrote this for me.

>

> Sigh, reading your message makes me wonder if I'm in denial. My

understanding of my mother's possible illness of BPD is so new, and I

feel like she has some kind of recognition that things are wrong that I

really want to try to at least have one conversation with her--not

necessarily about BPD, that would never work, but about how angry she

was on Christmas night. I feel like I have to try, but everything I'm

hearing tells me that it's a useless conversation. But if it's about me

and my health, and I need to at least have the conversation and set up

some boundaries at the same time, shouldn't I do it?

>