Re: Philisophical vs Practical

[Guest guest]

Not sure what happened on Christmas, but I haven t read all posts yet.

But in general,

Telling a BP they are BP is counterproductive, unless you are the

therapist treating them. They ll either get angry and deny it, or

embrace it and use it as an excuse for bad behavior.

You can , and should , have conversations about setting boundaries. If

she was angry and acted badly, you are certainly within your rights to

set boundaries,

eg , not in my house.

if i m at your house and you act this way I ll leave

you can be angry if you want, and so can I. But if you do this or this

while you are angry, I ll do this and this.

I will not be held hostage or bullied by your emotional hystrionics.

But make sure you know what it is exactly that you found unacceptable

behaviors. Write it out, share it with a spouse or friend or counselor.

Determine exactly what your boundaries are, that is, what are the

consequences of her future bad actions. Be very plain, direct, and

unambiguous. If there is a way to mis interpret, she ll do it.

Before you talk to her about it, be absolutely certain that you mean it,

and will enforce it. Don t bother saying it if you are not prepared to

go the distance. She will test the limits, like any child.

Don t argue with her about it. You are not having a debate, you are

informing her of certain facts. If she chooses to apologize for her

actions, fine. But the purpose is to let her know precisely what she did

that is unacceptable, that it is, in fact , unacceptablle, and what will

happen if it is repeated. Don t debate or justify it. You don t have

to, and you ll lose any arguement with her.

Be sure you set a time to do it when you are calm, and not emotional.

Do not expect her to be gracious about it. Do not expect her to

acknowledge she did wrong. Do not expect her to agree to your

boundaries.

Expect her to make you out the bad guy, and to test your limits, and to

bad mouth you as a terrible child for doing her that way.

All that said, go for it. Setting boundaries is the first step toward

saying no more FOG.

Doug

>

> I feel like you wrote this for me.

>

> Sigh, reading your message makes me wonder if I'm in denial. My

understanding of my mother's possible illness of BPD is so new, and I

feel like she has some kind of recognition that things are wrong that I

really want to try to at least have one conversation with her--not

necessarily about BPD, that would never work, but about how angry she

was on Christmas night. I feel like I have to try, but everything I'm

hearing tells me that it's a useless conversation. But if it's about me

and my health, and I need to at least have the conversation and set up

some boundaries at the same time, shouldn't I do it?

>

[Guest guest]

The smart ass in me would have said , must be pretty GD deep!

Look at results. A good person who consistently does bad things, has

the effect of being a bad person. Or, if you will, an unsafe person.

So regardless what may be at the core, you are only able to , or

expected by any rational person, to deal with the face that is presented

to you.

May I suggest a book that may help you with that very issue of who is

safe, who is not, who can I trust, how can I trust, how can I both be,

and attract, people who are safe in relationships with other people?

The book is Safe People, by Dr s Henry Cloud and Townsend.

Excellent book. I got a lot out of it, and have even led some small

groups based on it.

Doug

>

> So just to respond to Doug's comment - for me, I'm seeking to

understand

> whether BPD is a bad person or not because I'm in a " save vs unsafe "

phase.

> I'm trying to figure out who I can trust, who I should invest in and

who I

> should cut lose. I did not learn what was good and bad because nada

did very

> bad things and then dad said " but deep down, she is a good person. " He

said

> it every GD time!

>

> So, that left me very confused. Is she a sick person who is good? A

bad

> person? etc etc. It is important that I resolve this dilema because I

am

> delayed in knowing who to trust, who is good, who is bad. things that

I

> think a lot of other people learned by the time they were in junior

high. I

> didn't learn them then. But my T is helping me learn them now.

>

> So that is why I started the thread on that topic.

>

[Guest guest]

The smart ass in me would have said , must be pretty GD deep!

Look at results. A good person who consistently does bad things, has

the effect of being a bad person. Or, if you will, an unsafe person.

So regardless what may be at the core, you are only able to , or

expected by any rational person, to deal with the face that is presented

to you.

May I suggest a book that may help you with that very issue of who is

safe, who is not, who can I trust, how can I trust, how can I both be,

and attract, people who are safe in relationships with other people?

The book is Safe People, by Dr s Henry Cloud and Townsend.

Excellent book. I got a lot out of it, and have even led some small

groups based on it.

Doug

>

> So just to respond to Doug's comment - for me, I'm seeking to

understand

> whether BPD is a bad person or not because I'm in a " save vs unsafe "

phase.

> I'm trying to figure out who I can trust, who I should invest in and

who I

> should cut lose. I did not learn what was good and bad because nada

did very

> bad things and then dad said " but deep down, she is a good person. " He

said

> it every GD time!

>

> So, that left me very confused. Is she a sick person who is good? A

bad

> person? etc etc. It is important that I resolve this dilema because I

am

> delayed in knowing who to trust, who is good, who is bad. things that

I

> think a lot of other people learned by the time they were in junior

high. I

> didn't learn them then. But my T is helping me learn them now.

>

> So that is why I started the thread on that topic.

>

[Guest guest]

The smart ass in me would have said , must be pretty GD deep!

Look at results. A good person who consistently does bad things, has

the effect of being a bad person. Or, if you will, an unsafe person.

So regardless what may be at the core, you are only able to , or

expected by any rational person, to deal with the face that is presented

to you.

May I suggest a book that may help you with that very issue of who is

safe, who is not, who can I trust, how can I trust, how can I both be,

and attract, people who are safe in relationships with other people?

The book is Safe People, by Dr s Henry Cloud and Townsend.

Excellent book. I got a lot out of it, and have even led some small

groups based on it.

Doug

>

> So just to respond to Doug's comment - for me, I'm seeking to

understand

> whether BPD is a bad person or not because I'm in a " save vs unsafe "

phase.

> I'm trying to figure out who I can trust, who I should invest in and

who I

> should cut lose. I did not learn what was good and bad because nada

did very

> bad things and then dad said " but deep down, she is a good person. " He

said

> it every GD time!

>

> So, that left me very confused. Is she a sick person who is good? A

bad

> person? etc etc. It is important that I resolve this dilema because I

am

> delayed in knowing who to trust, who is good, who is bad. things that

I

> think a lot of other people learned by the time they were in junior

high. I

> didn't learn them then. But my T is helping me learn them now.

>

> So that is why I started the thread on that topic.

>

[Guest guest]

The alcoholic or addict may be a very good person at their core, except

when the addict is in control.

If it is, I m not going to get in a car with them. I m not going to

trust them with the key to my house.

You may be a good person somewhere down there, but your current

behaviors show me you cannot be trusted. Until you show me that you

have changed , I have no reason to trust you.

Whether it is the person or the illness, the slap across the mouth still

stings, the screams in your face still traumatize, the baseless

accusations still burn.

I won t subject myself to them again. I will keep ME safe. If you show

me change, my concern and compassion for you may let me choose to

cautiously begin to extend trust again.

Until you do, I must assume that to be around you means more slaps, more

screams, more accusations.

It may be because you are sick. But your sickness does not obligate me

to suffer the results of it.

Hey ?

It s not your fault.

It s not your fault.

It was never your fault.

And it s still not your fault.

It is sad and tragic, but you are still entitled to a life.

It is not, not , not, ever, your fault.

Let it go.

Doug

>

> Right? Is it the person or the illness? And how do you know which is

which and when? I don't know when it's my mom or her illness behaving

badly or behaving nicely, so how do I know she's a good person? And do I

even care if she's a good person--is that really for me to judge? I

don't care if she's a good person; I just care how she treats me. And if

she can't treat me, at the very least, like a human being, then why

should I spend any time with her? Why would I want to? And why am I the

bad one or made to feel bad because I don't want to spend time with

someone who treats people badly (even abuses them)?

>

> I'm all questions and no answers.

>

[Guest guest]

The alcoholic or addict may be a very good person at their core, except

when the addict is in control.

If it is, I m not going to get in a car with them. I m not going to

trust them with the key to my house.

You may be a good person somewhere down there, but your current

behaviors show me you cannot be trusted. Until you show me that you

have changed , I have no reason to trust you.

Whether it is the person or the illness, the slap across the mouth still

stings, the screams in your face still traumatize, the baseless

accusations still burn.

I won t subject myself to them again. I will keep ME safe. If you show

me change, my concern and compassion for you may let me choose to

cautiously begin to extend trust again.

Until you do, I must assume that to be around you means more slaps, more

screams, more accusations.

It may be because you are sick. But your sickness does not obligate me

to suffer the results of it.

Hey ?

It s not your fault.

It s not your fault.

It was never your fault.

And it s still not your fault.

It is sad and tragic, but you are still entitled to a life.

It is not, not , not, ever, your fault.

Let it go.

Doug

>

> Right? Is it the person or the illness? And how do you know which is

which and when? I don't know when it's my mom or her illness behaving

badly or behaving nicely, so how do I know she's a good person? And do I

even care if she's a good person--is that really for me to judge? I

don't care if she's a good person; I just care how she treats me. And if

she can't treat me, at the very least, like a human being, then why

should I spend any time with her? Why would I want to? And why am I the

bad one or made to feel bad because I don't want to spend time with

someone who treats people badly (even abuses them)?

>

> I'm all questions and no answers.

>

[Guest guest]

The alcoholic or addict may be a very good person at their core, except

when the addict is in control.

If it is, I m not going to get in a car with them. I m not going to

trust them with the key to my house.

You may be a good person somewhere down there, but your current

behaviors show me you cannot be trusted. Until you show me that you

have changed , I have no reason to trust you.

Whether it is the person or the illness, the slap across the mouth still

stings, the screams in your face still traumatize, the baseless

accusations still burn.

I won t subject myself to them again. I will keep ME safe. If you show

me change, my concern and compassion for you may let me choose to

cautiously begin to extend trust again.

Until you do, I must assume that to be around you means more slaps, more

screams, more accusations.

It may be because you are sick. But your sickness does not obligate me

to suffer the results of it.

Hey ?

It s not your fault.

It s not your fault.

It was never your fault.

And it s still not your fault.

It is sad and tragic, but you are still entitled to a life.

It is not, not , not, ever, your fault.

Let it go.

Doug

>

> Right? Is it the person or the illness? And how do you know which is

which and when? I don't know when it's my mom or her illness behaving

badly or behaving nicely, so how do I know she's a good person? And do I

even care if she's a good person--is that really for me to judge? I

don't care if she's a good person; I just care how she treats me. And if

she can't treat me, at the very least, like a human being, then why

should I spend any time with her? Why would I want to? And why am I the

bad one or made to feel bad because I don't want to spend time with

someone who treats people badly (even abuses them)?

>

> I'm all questions and no answers.

>

[Guest guest]

LOL at Wal Mart. Made me think of Jeff Dunham, puppeteer, and his

Character Walter. Walter is a grouchy old curmudgeon of a man, who says

among other things, I want to be a greeter at Wal Mart.

Really, Walter? What would you say to the folks. Get your shit and get

out!

There is a mindset in our society, and in particular in our group, KO

s, that says to assert myself is wrong. To call someone on rude

behaviors is wrong.

I disagree. I hate confrontation. I would rather be abused than face it

down and speak up. But I have learned as part of health, to do just

that.

If I m at the counter at a store and someone picks up the phone and

starts to talk, I ll say quite loudly, EXCUSE ME< but I m standing right

here. Tell them to call you back and wait on me now.

If I go thru a drive through and someone pokes my food out without

looking at me while talking to a co worker back inside, I ll sit without

touching the food until they turn and make eye contact with me.

If someone is rude to me on the phone, I ll hang up. If it is a

business, I ll get their name and call back and talk to the manager and

express my feelings about rude treatment.

I have learned , and practice, manners and politeness to those I deal

with. I expect, nay demand, the same treatment in return.

And I apply that to relationships as well.

IMHO

Doug

>

> So, we may need to look at some details or work out emotions in our

own lives, but the basic idea could be summed up:

>

> We need boundaries to protect ourselves/spouse/kids from unhealthy

interactions.

>

> This would apply across the board: from the unpleasant co-shopper at

Wal-Mart to our very own blood kin. Family or not becomes irrelevant.

>

> We must learn the same coping skills we would use for a co-worker,

boss or neighbor. That idea does help simplify things and answers a lot

of questions about what I should do in this or that situation, hmmm?

>

> +Coal Miner's Daughter

>

[Guest guest]

LOL at Wal Mart. Made me think of Jeff Dunham, puppeteer, and his

Character Walter. Walter is a grouchy old curmudgeon of a man, who says

among other things, I want to be a greeter at Wal Mart.

Really, Walter? What would you say to the folks. Get your shit and get

out!

There is a mindset in our society, and in particular in our group, KO

s, that says to assert myself is wrong. To call someone on rude

behaviors is wrong.

I disagree. I hate confrontation. I would rather be abused than face it

down and speak up. But I have learned as part of health, to do just

that.

If I m at the counter at a store and someone picks up the phone and

starts to talk, I ll say quite loudly, EXCUSE ME< but I m standing right

here. Tell them to call you back and wait on me now.

If I go thru a drive through and someone pokes my food out without

looking at me while talking to a co worker back inside, I ll sit without

touching the food until they turn and make eye contact with me.

If someone is rude to me on the phone, I ll hang up. If it is a

business, I ll get their name and call back and talk to the manager and

express my feelings about rude treatment.

I have learned , and practice, manners and politeness to those I deal

with. I expect, nay demand, the same treatment in return.

And I apply that to relationships as well.

IMHO

Doug

>

> So, we may need to look at some details or work out emotions in our

own lives, but the basic idea could be summed up:

>

> We need boundaries to protect ourselves/spouse/kids from unhealthy

interactions.

>

> This would apply across the board: from the unpleasant co-shopper at

Wal-Mart to our very own blood kin. Family or not becomes irrelevant.

>

> We must learn the same coping skills we would use for a co-worker,

boss or neighbor. That idea does help simplify things and answers a lot

of questions about what I should do in this or that situation, hmmm?

>

> +Coal Miner's Daughter

>

[Guest guest]

Ha ha Doug, I just finished reading Safe People! And now it is the topic of

several therapy sessions.

Yes maybe good vs bad isn't so much the issue as safe vs unsafe.

And I've decided that if someone is sometimes safe (I.E. sometimes unsafe)

then they are just plain unsafe!

Doug said - " I disagree. I hate confrontation. I would rather be abused than

face it

down and speak up. But I have learned as part of health, to do just

that. "

Yes, that is exactly what I am working on. SHEESH! I hate it. Its easier

just to give in than fight for your rights every minute.

>

>

> The smart ass in me would have said , must be pretty GD deep!

>

> Look at results. A good person who consistently does bad things, has

> the effect of being a bad person. Or, if you will, an unsafe person.

> So regardless what may be at the core, you are only able to , or

> expected by any rational person, to deal with the face that is presented

> to you.

>

> May I suggest a book that may help you with that very issue of who is

> safe, who is not, who can I trust, how can I trust, how can I both be,

> and attract, people who are safe in relationships with other people?

>

> The book is Safe People, by Dr s Henry Cloud and Townsend.

>

> Excellent book. I got a lot out of it, and have even led some small

> groups based on it.

>

> Doug

>

>

> >

> > So just to respond to Doug's comment - for me, I'm seeking to

> understand

> > whether BPD is a bad person or not because I'm in a " save vs unsafe "

> phase.

> > I'm trying to figure out who I can trust, who I should invest in and

> who I

> > should cut lose. I did not learn what was good and bad because nada

> did very

> > bad things and then dad said " but deep down, she is a good person. " He

> said

> > it every GD time!

> >

> > So, that left me very confused. Is she a sick person who is good? A

> bad

> > person? etc etc. It is important that I resolve this dilema because I

> am

> > delayed in knowing who to trust, who is good, who is bad. things that

> I

> > think a lot of other people learned by the time they were in junior

> high. I

> > didn't learn them then. But my T is helping me learn them now.

> >

> > So that is why I started the thread on that topic.

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ha ha Doug, I just finished reading Safe People! And now it is the topic of

several therapy sessions.

Yes maybe good vs bad isn't so much the issue as safe vs unsafe.

And I've decided that if someone is sometimes safe (I.E. sometimes unsafe)

then they are just plain unsafe!

Doug said - " I disagree. I hate confrontation. I would rather be abused than

face it

down and speak up. But I have learned as part of health, to do just

that. "

Yes, that is exactly what I am working on. SHEESH! I hate it. Its easier

just to give in than fight for your rights every minute.

>

>

> The smart ass in me would have said , must be pretty GD deep!

>

> Look at results. A good person who consistently does bad things, has

> the effect of being a bad person. Or, if you will, an unsafe person.

> So regardless what may be at the core, you are only able to , or

> expected by any rational person, to deal with the face that is presented

> to you.

>

> May I suggest a book that may help you with that very issue of who is

> safe, who is not, who can I trust, how can I trust, how can I both be,

> and attract, people who are safe in relationships with other people?

>

> The book is Safe People, by Dr s Henry Cloud and Townsend.

>

> Excellent book. I got a lot out of it, and have even led some small

> groups based on it.

>

> Doug

>

>

> >

> > So just to respond to Doug's comment - for me, I'm seeking to

> understand

> > whether BPD is a bad person or not because I'm in a " save vs unsafe "

> phase.

> > I'm trying to figure out who I can trust, who I should invest in and

> who I

> > should cut lose. I did not learn what was good and bad because nada

> did very

> > bad things and then dad said " but deep down, she is a good person. " He

> said

> > it every GD time!

> >

> > So, that left me very confused. Is she a sick person who is good? A

> bad

> > person? etc etc. It is important that I resolve this dilema because I

> am

> > delayed in knowing who to trust, who is good, who is bad. things that

> I

> > think a lot of other people learned by the time they were in junior

> high. I

> > didn't learn them then. But my T is helping me learn them now.

> >

> > So that is why I started the thread on that topic.

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ha ha Doug, I just finished reading Safe People! And now it is the topic of

several therapy sessions.

Yes maybe good vs bad isn't so much the issue as safe vs unsafe.

And I've decided that if someone is sometimes safe (I.E. sometimes unsafe)

then they are just plain unsafe!

Doug said - " I disagree. I hate confrontation. I would rather be abused than

face it

down and speak up. But I have learned as part of health, to do just

that. "

Yes, that is exactly what I am working on. SHEESH! I hate it. Its easier

just to give in than fight for your rights every minute.

>

>

> The smart ass in me would have said , must be pretty GD deep!

>

> Look at results. A good person who consistently does bad things, has

> the effect of being a bad person. Or, if you will, an unsafe person.

> So regardless what may be at the core, you are only able to , or

> expected by any rational person, to deal with the face that is presented

> to you.

>

> May I suggest a book that may help you with that very issue of who is

> safe, who is not, who can I trust, how can I trust, how can I both be,

> and attract, people who are safe in relationships with other people?

>

> The book is Safe People, by Dr s Henry Cloud and Townsend.

>

> Excellent book. I got a lot out of it, and have even led some small

> groups based on it.

>

> Doug

>

>

> >

> > So just to respond to Doug's comment - for me, I'm seeking to

> understand

> > whether BPD is a bad person or not because I'm in a " save vs unsafe "

> phase.

> > I'm trying to figure out who I can trust, who I should invest in and

> who I

> > should cut lose. I did not learn what was good and bad because nada

> did very

> > bad things and then dad said " but deep down, she is a good person. " He

> said

> > it every GD time!

> >

> > So, that left me very confused. Is she a sick person who is good? A

> bad

> > person? etc etc. It is important that I resolve this dilema because I

> am

> > delayed in knowing who to trust, who is good, who is bad. things that

> I

> > think a lot of other people learned by the time they were in junior

> high. I

> > didn't learn them then. But my T is helping me learn them now.

> >

> > So that is why I started the thread on that topic.

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Really well said, Doug.

I agree, it is--like so many other things in our lives--a moment by moment

choice to choose healing and not take the easy way of fear, obligation, guilt.

I say " easy " because for many of us, it's our " default " setting, it's what we're

most familiar and even comfortable with. Saying no stretches us and feels very

uncomfortable and wrong.

Whenever I read a biographer about a great explorer or musician, whatever, esp

those that talk about how they left home early or did things that were, in my

world, unheard of for a young person to do, one of my first thoughts is " wow,

how did s/he get their mother to " let " them do THAT?? " it's ridiculous to even

think like that, but that's still my stupid mentality.

Fog sucks!

>

> Guys,

>

> We ve had a lot of discussion in recent threads about the philisophical

> aspects of BPD. Can they control it, are they bad people, are they

> responsible, what do I have to do to be a good son or daughter.

>

> These are all very interesting, and some we will never solve. Can they

> control it? I think yes. Some think no. Neither of us can prove it,

> nor can professionals.

>

> But the practical realities still exist.

>

> Their sickness affects us. Their behaviors make a normal healthy life

> difficult for us. Are we obligated, by virtue of our birth, to accept

> being twisted, warped, and abused because , perhaps, it s not thier

> fault, they can t control it , or they are sick.

>

> People with Hanson s disease ( Leprosy) are quarantined in colonies.

> People with TB are isolated and not permitted to work in certain areas.

>

>

> These are cruel realities, but they are realities.

>

> As children of parents with BPD, the question for us , I believe,

> becomes , not as the FOG tells us, what can I do to fix Mom?

> Rather, it becomes, what can I do to be as healthy as possible, given

> that I was raised by, and now have an adult parent with BPD?

>

> All of us, every single one of us, has a fond dream of seeing Mom wake

> up. We imagine how it would be if one day she realized what she had

> been, and apologized to us , vowed to change, got help and really became

> that normal Mom we always wanted. We dreamed of a Mom where hysterics

> were not the norm, where holidays could be a pleasure , where, as 6 year

> old children, we did not have to walk on eggshells to keep Mom from

> going off. We blamed ourselves for not finding the way to make all that

> happen.

>

> But now we know, as informed adults, that even counselors and

> psychiatrists shudder at the prospect of trying to initiate changes in a

> BP. We were never going to do it as children. We are never going to do

> it as adults. The key to change and healing for them, is entirely with

> them.

>

> So what choices to we have?

>

> The choices of the child were few. Adapt, find a way to reconcile it

> all that we could live with. This is usually a settlement that created

> pain and emotional illness in us. In some cases, the settlement exacts

> a price so severe, we bankrupt the store to achieve it. In

> psychological terms, that is psychosis. And being the child of a BP can

> lead us there. Short of that, we deal with depression, FOG, anxiety,

> emotional and sexual dysfunctions, addictions; well, the list is long.

> Then, we had no good choice. No adult was going to come rescue us. So

> as adults, all the emotional pains I ve just listed were part of the

> package we could expect because of being a KO.

>

> But now, as an adult child of a Borderline, though the new ones, those

> just realizing who we are, who are parents are, those just beginning

> the journey don t realize it, we now do have choices. They are few,

> They are hard. But these are the choices we have in the real world.

>

> We can live our lives in the FOG. We can let our lives be controlled by

> an emotionally damaged, personality disordered person who will, we

> understand, manipulate us to meet unending, impossible, unrealistic

> needs. We can accept that we will never be good enough, never come up

> to the requirements that they place on us, but that they will pressure

> us with FOG to meet them anyway, all their lives. We can understand and

> accept that we will never be permitted to have anything, money,

> relationships, peace, because our BP parents will demand what we have,

> or demand that we invest and spend what we have to try and fill that

> endless Hoover vacuum of their needs. We can feel fear, obligation, and

> guilt to continue this until they die, regardless of the consequences to

> ourselves, our children, our mates, our friends, and our health.

>

> Whether it is their fault or not is moot to this choice. It may or may

> not be their fault, but it is surely not OUR fault. But the choice to

> change is all theirs, and if they will not make it, and I must say I

> have not heard from one single KO on this board who says, oh yes, my BP

> mom or dad is in treatment by Dr McLuhan with DBT and is doing very

> well. I m open to correction, but our collective experience here seems

> to be the same as mine: Mom was actively BPD till the day of her death.

>

> So this is the choice we have made all our lives. This is the choice

> all of us are making at the point of our epiphany: Borderline!

> Yes, that is what has been going on all my life with mom! This is where

> most of us are at the point of coming into this group. And this is

> where I was for the first 48 years of my life.

>

> Or

>

> We can determine that there is nothing we can do for them, but much we

> can do for ourselves.

>

> We can educate ourselves about Borderline Personality Disorder, and

> learn what is going to happen with them.

>

> We can establish boundaries in our lives of what would be normal with

> any health relationship, and enforce them with our BP parent.

>

> We can understand the games and manipulations they use, and refuse to

> play.

>

> We can determine that our health, and emotions, and relationships, and

> kids, take precedence over our BP parent.

>

> We can, despite the pain it causes, and the push back from our BP parent

> keep pressing with these changes.

>

> We can seek thru therapy and solid relationships to find our own

> healing, whether our BP parent chooses to do so or not.

>

> We never give up hope that they may choose to heal, but we do not let

> that hope effect our choice to heal.

>

> These are our choices.

>

> I can t make the choice for you, nor can you make them for me. It is

> our own choice.

>

> My choice, and my hope for you, is my traditional closing on this group:

>

> May we all heal.

>

> Doug

>

[Guest guest]

Really well said, Doug.

I agree, it is--like so many other things in our lives--a moment by moment

choice to choose healing and not take the easy way of fear, obligation, guilt.

I say " easy " because for many of us, it's our " default " setting, it's what we're

most familiar and even comfortable with. Saying no stretches us and feels very

uncomfortable and wrong.

Whenever I read a biographer about a great explorer or musician, whatever, esp

those that talk about how they left home early or did things that were, in my

world, unheard of for a young person to do, one of my first thoughts is " wow,

how did s/he get their mother to " let " them do THAT?? " it's ridiculous to even

think like that, but that's still my stupid mentality.

Fog sucks!

>

> Guys,

>

> We ve had a lot of discussion in recent threads about the philisophical

> aspects of BPD. Can they control it, are they bad people, are they

> responsible, what do I have to do to be a good son or daughter.

>

> These are all very interesting, and some we will never solve. Can they

> control it? I think yes. Some think no. Neither of us can prove it,

> nor can professionals.

>

> But the practical realities still exist.

>

> Their sickness affects us. Their behaviors make a normal healthy life

> difficult for us. Are we obligated, by virtue of our birth, to accept

> being twisted, warped, and abused because , perhaps, it s not thier

> fault, they can t control it , or they are sick.

>

> People with Hanson s disease ( Leprosy) are quarantined in colonies.

> People with TB are isolated and not permitted to work in certain areas.

>

>

> These are cruel realities, but they are realities.

>

> As children of parents with BPD, the question for us , I believe,

> becomes , not as the FOG tells us, what can I do to fix Mom?

> Rather, it becomes, what can I do to be as healthy as possible, given

> that I was raised by, and now have an adult parent with BPD?

>

> All of us, every single one of us, has a fond dream of seeing Mom wake

> up. We imagine how it would be if one day she realized what she had

> been, and apologized to us , vowed to change, got help and really became

> that normal Mom we always wanted. We dreamed of a Mom where hysterics

> were not the norm, where holidays could be a pleasure , where, as 6 year

> old children, we did not have to walk on eggshells to keep Mom from

> going off. We blamed ourselves for not finding the way to make all that

> happen.

>

> But now we know, as informed adults, that even counselors and

> psychiatrists shudder at the prospect of trying to initiate changes in a

> BP. We were never going to do it as children. We are never going to do

> it as adults. The key to change and healing for them, is entirely with

> them.

>

> So what choices to we have?

>

> The choices of the child were few. Adapt, find a way to reconcile it

> all that we could live with. This is usually a settlement that created

> pain and emotional illness in us. In some cases, the settlement exacts

> a price so severe, we bankrupt the store to achieve it. In

> psychological terms, that is psychosis. And being the child of a BP can

> lead us there. Short of that, we deal with depression, FOG, anxiety,

> emotional and sexual dysfunctions, addictions; well, the list is long.

> Then, we had no good choice. No adult was going to come rescue us. So

> as adults, all the emotional pains I ve just listed were part of the

> package we could expect because of being a KO.

>

> But now, as an adult child of a Borderline, though the new ones, those

> just realizing who we are, who are parents are, those just beginning

> the journey don t realize it, we now do have choices. They are few,

> They are hard. But these are the choices we have in the real world.

>

> We can live our lives in the FOG. We can let our lives be controlled by

> an emotionally damaged, personality disordered person who will, we

> understand, manipulate us to meet unending, impossible, unrealistic

> needs. We can accept that we will never be good enough, never come up

> to the requirements that they place on us, but that they will pressure

> us with FOG to meet them anyway, all their lives. We can understand and

> accept that we will never be permitted to have anything, money,

> relationships, peace, because our BP parents will demand what we have,

> or demand that we invest and spend what we have to try and fill that

> endless Hoover vacuum of their needs. We can feel fear, obligation, and

> guilt to continue this until they die, regardless of the consequences to

> ourselves, our children, our mates, our friends, and our health.

>

> Whether it is their fault or not is moot to this choice. It may or may

> not be their fault, but it is surely not OUR fault. But the choice to

> change is all theirs, and if they will not make it, and I must say I

> have not heard from one single KO on this board who says, oh yes, my BP

> mom or dad is in treatment by Dr McLuhan with DBT and is doing very

> well. I m open to correction, but our collective experience here seems

> to be the same as mine: Mom was actively BPD till the day of her death.

>

> So this is the choice we have made all our lives. This is the choice

> all of us are making at the point of our epiphany: Borderline!

> Yes, that is what has been going on all my life with mom! This is where

> most of us are at the point of coming into this group. And this is

> where I was for the first 48 years of my life.

>

> Or

>

> We can determine that there is nothing we can do for them, but much we

> can do for ourselves.

>

> We can educate ourselves about Borderline Personality Disorder, and

> learn what is going to happen with them.

>

> We can establish boundaries in our lives of what would be normal with

> any health relationship, and enforce them with our BP parent.

>

> We can understand the games and manipulations they use, and refuse to

> play.

>

> We can determine that our health, and emotions, and relationships, and

> kids, take precedence over our BP parent.

>

> We can, despite the pain it causes, and the push back from our BP parent

> keep pressing with these changes.

>

> We can seek thru therapy and solid relationships to find our own

> healing, whether our BP parent chooses to do so or not.

>

> We never give up hope that they may choose to heal, but we do not let

> that hope effect our choice to heal.

>

> These are our choices.

>

> I can t make the choice for you, nor can you make them for me. It is

> our own choice.

>

> My choice, and my hope for you, is my traditional closing on this group:

>

> May we all heal.

>

> Doug

>

[Guest guest]

Really well said, Doug.

I agree, it is--like so many other things in our lives--a moment by moment

choice to choose healing and not take the easy way of fear, obligation, guilt.

I say " easy " because for many of us, it's our " default " setting, it's what we're

most familiar and even comfortable with. Saying no stretches us and feels very

uncomfortable and wrong.

Whenever I read a biographer about a great explorer or musician, whatever, esp

those that talk about how they left home early or did things that were, in my

world, unheard of for a young person to do, one of my first thoughts is " wow,

how did s/he get their mother to " let " them do THAT?? " it's ridiculous to even

think like that, but that's still my stupid mentality.

Fog sucks!

>

> Guys,

>

> We ve had a lot of discussion in recent threads about the philisophical

> aspects of BPD. Can they control it, are they bad people, are they

> responsible, what do I have to do to be a good son or daughter.

>

> These are all very interesting, and some we will never solve. Can they

> control it? I think yes. Some think no. Neither of us can prove it,

> nor can professionals.

>

> But the practical realities still exist.

>

> Their sickness affects us. Their behaviors make a normal healthy life

> difficult for us. Are we obligated, by virtue of our birth, to accept

> being twisted, warped, and abused because , perhaps, it s not thier

> fault, they can t control it , or they are sick.

>

> People with Hanson s disease ( Leprosy) are quarantined in colonies.

> People with TB are isolated and not permitted to work in certain areas.

>

>

> These are cruel realities, but they are realities.

>

> As children of parents with BPD, the question for us , I believe,

> becomes , not as the FOG tells us, what can I do to fix Mom?

> Rather, it becomes, what can I do to be as healthy as possible, given

> that I was raised by, and now have an adult parent with BPD?

>

> All of us, every single one of us, has a fond dream of seeing Mom wake

> up. We imagine how it would be if one day she realized what she had

> been, and apologized to us , vowed to change, got help and really became

> that normal Mom we always wanted. We dreamed of a Mom where hysterics

> were not the norm, where holidays could be a pleasure , where, as 6 year

> old children, we did not have to walk on eggshells to keep Mom from

> going off. We blamed ourselves for not finding the way to make all that

> happen.

>

> But now we know, as informed adults, that even counselors and

> psychiatrists shudder at the prospect of trying to initiate changes in a

> BP. We were never going to do it as children. We are never going to do

> it as adults. The key to change and healing for them, is entirely with

> them.

>

> So what choices to we have?

>

> The choices of the child were few. Adapt, find a way to reconcile it

> all that we could live with. This is usually a settlement that created

> pain and emotional illness in us. In some cases, the settlement exacts

> a price so severe, we bankrupt the store to achieve it. In

> psychological terms, that is psychosis. And being the child of a BP can

> lead us there. Short of that, we deal with depression, FOG, anxiety,

> emotional and sexual dysfunctions, addictions; well, the list is long.

> Then, we had no good choice. No adult was going to come rescue us. So

> as adults, all the emotional pains I ve just listed were part of the

> package we could expect because of being a KO.

>

> But now, as an adult child of a Borderline, though the new ones, those

> just realizing who we are, who are parents are, those just beginning

> the journey don t realize it, we now do have choices. They are few,

> They are hard. But these are the choices we have in the real world.

>

> We can live our lives in the FOG. We can let our lives be controlled by

> an emotionally damaged, personality disordered person who will, we

> understand, manipulate us to meet unending, impossible, unrealistic

> needs. We can accept that we will never be good enough, never come up

> to the requirements that they place on us, but that they will pressure

> us with FOG to meet them anyway, all their lives. We can understand and

> accept that we will never be permitted to have anything, money,

> relationships, peace, because our BP parents will demand what we have,

> or demand that we invest and spend what we have to try and fill that

> endless Hoover vacuum of their needs. We can feel fear, obligation, and

> guilt to continue this until they die, regardless of the consequences to

> ourselves, our children, our mates, our friends, and our health.

>

> Whether it is their fault or not is moot to this choice. It may or may

> not be their fault, but it is surely not OUR fault. But the choice to

> change is all theirs, and if they will not make it, and I must say I

> have not heard from one single KO on this board who says, oh yes, my BP

> mom or dad is in treatment by Dr McLuhan with DBT and is doing very

> well. I m open to correction, but our collective experience here seems

> to be the same as mine: Mom was actively BPD till the day of her death.

>

> So this is the choice we have made all our lives. This is the choice

> all of us are making at the point of our epiphany: Borderline!

> Yes, that is what has been going on all my life with mom! This is where

> most of us are at the point of coming into this group. And this is

> where I was for the first 48 years of my life.

>

> Or

>

> We can determine that there is nothing we can do for them, but much we

> can do for ourselves.

>

> We can educate ourselves about Borderline Personality Disorder, and

> learn what is going to happen with them.

>

> We can establish boundaries in our lives of what would be normal with

> any health relationship, and enforce them with our BP parent.

>

> We can understand the games and manipulations they use, and refuse to

> play.

>

> We can determine that our health, and emotions, and relationships, and

> kids, take precedence over our BP parent.

>

> We can, despite the pain it causes, and the push back from our BP parent

> keep pressing with these changes.

>

> We can seek thru therapy and solid relationships to find our own

> healing, whether our BP parent chooses to do so or not.

>

> We never give up hope that they may choose to heal, but we do not let

> that hope effect our choice to heal.

>

> These are our choices.

>

> I can t make the choice for you, nor can you make them for me. It is

> our own choice.

>

> My choice, and my hope for you, is my traditional closing on this group:

>

> May we all heal.

>

> Doug

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, it is so much easier. One of the things I m working on with my T

is verbalizing, asking for what you want, expressing what dissatisfies

you in relationships. As opposed to just pouting, withdrawing, or

getting mad and going away.

Easier my way!

Better, but harder, her way. I hate that she is right so much.

But we were trained early on by our Nada s, do whatever it takes, keep

the adults in peace, stop them fighting, stop Mom from going into a

crying scene, I hate, hate HATE the dynamics and histrionics of my home,

so I ll do, or take, whatever it takes to control it.

But it never worked, of course. We didnt control it. But that scared

kid still thinks, if I just do XYZ, everyone will make nice.

But girl friend, you a SHO NUFF Woman! All growed up and wearing big

girl panties. So, hard as it is, join me, let the little girl and the

little boy know: Hey, kid? I got it. You don t have to do it anymore.

I m here now. The adult. I ll handle it.

Trust me, the IRS expects you to be the adult. You can t deduct

yourself as a child. So enjoy the perks of being an adult.

Object lesson:

When I was a young sailor, a bunch of us went into a pool hall. We

were talking like sailors as we missed our shots. The owner, and older

man, probably like my age now, came over and said boys, I appreciate

your business, but you need to mind your language. I don t allow that

sort of talk in here.

A few minutes later, another blast of blue notes from one of us, and he

came over calmly , not mad, not raising his voice, and said , now fellas

, you remember what I said? You are going to have to leave now. Next

time you come to see me, I hope you ll remember.

That incident stuck with me as an adult, being firm, but kind, and

exerting himself for his safe boundaries.

We can do it as well. And you know, it may seem you fight every minute,

but after a while, people learn to know what you expect, and act

accordingly.

Unless they are a BP of course, which is a whole different game.

I heard advice once, given to a teen girl. Sweetheart, act like you

fully expect to be treated like a lady, pause at the door and smile

sweetly and wait for it to be opened for you, act as if you fully expect

someone to hold your seat for you. People , and boys, dumb as they

are, will get the hint and either treat you like a lady, or run like

hell because they don t know how to handle a woman.

Act as if you expect to be treated properly. Very good advice. KO s

would never think of that.

till now.

Doug

>

> Ha ha Doug, I just finished reading Safe People! And now it is the

topic of

> several therapy sessions.

>

> Yes maybe good vs bad isn't so much the issue as safe vs unsafe.

>

> And I've decided that if someone is sometimes safe (I.E. sometimes

unsafe)

> then they are just plain unsafe!

>

> Doug said - " I disagree. I hate confrontation. I would rather be

abused than

> face it

> down and speak up. But I have learned as part of health, to do just

> that. "

>

> Yes, that is exactly what I am working on. SHEESH! I hate it. Its

easier

> just to give in than fight for your rights every minute.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, it is so much easier. One of the things I m working on with my T

is verbalizing, asking for what you want, expressing what dissatisfies

you in relationships. As opposed to just pouting, withdrawing, or

getting mad and going away.

Easier my way!

Better, but harder, her way. I hate that she is right so much.

But we were trained early on by our Nada s, do whatever it takes, keep

the adults in peace, stop them fighting, stop Mom from going into a

crying scene, I hate, hate HATE the dynamics and histrionics of my home,

so I ll do, or take, whatever it takes to control it.

But it never worked, of course. We didnt control it. But that scared

kid still thinks, if I just do XYZ, everyone will make nice.

But girl friend, you a SHO NUFF Woman! All growed up and wearing big

girl panties. So, hard as it is, join me, let the little girl and the

little boy know: Hey, kid? I got it. You don t have to do it anymore.

I m here now. The adult. I ll handle it.

Trust me, the IRS expects you to be the adult. You can t deduct

yourself as a child. So enjoy the perks of being an adult.

Object lesson:

When I was a young sailor, a bunch of us went into a pool hall. We

were talking like sailors as we missed our shots. The owner, and older

man, probably like my age now, came over and said boys, I appreciate

your business, but you need to mind your language. I don t allow that

sort of talk in here.

A few minutes later, another blast of blue notes from one of us, and he

came over calmly , not mad, not raising his voice, and said , now fellas

, you remember what I said? You are going to have to leave now. Next

time you come to see me, I hope you ll remember.

That incident stuck with me as an adult, being firm, but kind, and

exerting himself for his safe boundaries.

We can do it as well. And you know, it may seem you fight every minute,

but after a while, people learn to know what you expect, and act

accordingly.

Unless they are a BP of course, which is a whole different game.

I heard advice once, given to a teen girl. Sweetheart, act like you

fully expect to be treated like a lady, pause at the door and smile

sweetly and wait for it to be opened for you, act as if you fully expect

someone to hold your seat for you. People , and boys, dumb as they

are, will get the hint and either treat you like a lady, or run like

hell because they don t know how to handle a woman.

Act as if you expect to be treated properly. Very good advice. KO s

would never think of that.

till now.

Doug

>

> Ha ha Doug, I just finished reading Safe People! And now it is the

topic of

> several therapy sessions.

>

> Yes maybe good vs bad isn't so much the issue as safe vs unsafe.

>

> And I've decided that if someone is sometimes safe (I.E. sometimes

unsafe)

> then they are just plain unsafe!

>

> Doug said - " I disagree. I hate confrontation. I would rather be

abused than

> face it

> down and speak up. But I have learned as part of health, to do just

> that. "

>

> Yes, that is exactly what I am working on. SHEESH! I hate it. Its

easier

> just to give in than fight for your rights every minute.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, it is so much easier. One of the things I m working on with my T

is verbalizing, asking for what you want, expressing what dissatisfies

you in relationships. As opposed to just pouting, withdrawing, or

getting mad and going away.

Easier my way!

Better, but harder, her way. I hate that she is right so much.

But we were trained early on by our Nada s, do whatever it takes, keep

the adults in peace, stop them fighting, stop Mom from going into a

crying scene, I hate, hate HATE the dynamics and histrionics of my home,

so I ll do, or take, whatever it takes to control it.

But it never worked, of course. We didnt control it. But that scared

kid still thinks, if I just do XYZ, everyone will make nice.

But girl friend, you a SHO NUFF Woman! All growed up and wearing big

girl panties. So, hard as it is, join me, let the little girl and the

little boy know: Hey, kid? I got it. You don t have to do it anymore.

I m here now. The adult. I ll handle it.

Trust me, the IRS expects you to be the adult. You can t deduct

yourself as a child. So enjoy the perks of being an adult.

Object lesson:

When I was a young sailor, a bunch of us went into a pool hall. We

were talking like sailors as we missed our shots. The owner, and older

man, probably like my age now, came over and said boys, I appreciate

your business, but you need to mind your language. I don t allow that

sort of talk in here.

A few minutes later, another blast of blue notes from one of us, and he

came over calmly , not mad, not raising his voice, and said , now fellas

, you remember what I said? You are going to have to leave now. Next

time you come to see me, I hope you ll remember.

That incident stuck with me as an adult, being firm, but kind, and

exerting himself for his safe boundaries.

We can do it as well. And you know, it may seem you fight every minute,

but after a while, people learn to know what you expect, and act

accordingly.

Unless they are a BP of course, which is a whole different game.

I heard advice once, given to a teen girl. Sweetheart, act like you

fully expect to be treated like a lady, pause at the door and smile

sweetly and wait for it to be opened for you, act as if you fully expect

someone to hold your seat for you. People , and boys, dumb as they

are, will get the hint and either treat you like a lady, or run like

hell because they don t know how to handle a woman.

Act as if you expect to be treated properly. Very good advice. KO s

would never think of that.

till now.

Doug

>

> Ha ha Doug, I just finished reading Safe People! And now it is the

topic of

> several therapy sessions.

>

> Yes maybe good vs bad isn't so much the issue as safe vs unsafe.

>

> And I've decided that if someone is sometimes safe (I.E. sometimes

unsafe)

> then they are just plain unsafe!

>

> Doug said - " I disagree. I hate confrontation. I would rather be

abused than

> face it

> down and speak up. But I have learned as part of health, to do just

> that. "

>

> Yes, that is exactly what I am working on. SHEESH! I hate it. Its

easier

> just to give in than fight for your rights every minute.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Doug:

I can only say one word to that post:

WOW.

I want to start a website about being an adult child of a BP. Can I quote that

one???

--.

[Guest guest]

Perhaps the question is not whether they are GOOD or BAD, but whether being

around them is GOOD or BAD for us. If the answer is mostly BAD, then limit that

exposure.

+Coal Miner's Daughter

>

> I think you're asking questions that are looking for simple

> answers to complex problems. Whether someone is " good " or " bad "

> depends on how you define those two alternatives.> > --

>

>

[Guest guest]

Perhaps the question is not whether they are GOOD or BAD, but whether being

around them is GOOD or BAD for us. If the answer is mostly BAD, then limit that

exposure.

+Coal Miner's Daughter

>

> I think you're asking questions that are looking for simple

> answers to complex problems. Whether someone is " good " or " bad "

> depends on how you define those two alternatives.> > --

>

>

[Guest guest]

Perhaps the question is not whether they are GOOD or BAD, but whether being

around them is GOOD or BAD for us. If the answer is mostly BAD, then limit that

exposure.

+Coal Miner's Daughter

>

> I think you're asking questions that are looking for simple

> answers to complex problems. Whether someone is " good " or " bad "

> depends on how you define those two alternatives.> > --

>

>

[Guest guest]

Publish This! It IS in the book, right?...

+Coal Miner's Daughter

>>

>

> But girl friend, you a SHO NUFF Woman! All growed up and wearing big

> girl panties. So, hard as it is, join me, let the little girl and the

> little boy know: Hey, kid? I got it. You don t have to do it anymore.

> I m here now. The adult. I ll handle it.

>

> Trust me, the IRS expects you to be the adult. You can t deduct

> yourself as a child. So enjoy the perks of being an adult.

>

> Object lesson:

>

> When I was a young sailor, a bunch of us went into a pool hall. We

> were talking like sailors as we missed our shots. The owner, and older

> man, probably like my age now, came over and said boys, I appreciate

> your business, but you need to mind your language. I don t allow that

> sort of talk in here.

>

> A few minutes later, another blast of blue notes from one of us, and he

> came over calmly , not mad, not raising his voice, and said , now fellas

> , you remember what I said? You are going to have to leave now. Next

> time you come to see me, I hope you ll remember.

>

> That incident stuck with me as an adult, being firm, but kind, and

> exerting himself for his safe boundaries.

>

> We can do it as well. And you know, it may seem you fight every minute,

> but after a while, people learn to know what you expect, and act

> accordingly.

>

> Unless they are a BP of course, which is a whole different game.

>

> I heard advice once, given to a teen girl. Sweetheart, act like you

> fully expect to be treated like a lady, pause at the door and smile

> sweetly and wait for it to be opened for you, act as if you fully expect

> someone to hold your seat for you. People , and boys, dumb as they

> are, will get the hint and either treat you like a lady, or run like

> hell because they don t know how to handle a woman.

>

> Act as if you expect to be treated properly. Very good advice. KO s

> would never think of that.

>

> till now.

>

>

>

> Doug

>

[Guest guest]

Publish This! It IS in the book, right?...

+Coal Miner's Daughter

>>

>

> But girl friend, you a SHO NUFF Woman! All growed up and wearing big

> girl panties. So, hard as it is, join me, let the little girl and the

> little boy know: Hey, kid? I got it. You don t have to do it anymore.

> I m here now. The adult. I ll handle it.

>

> Trust me, the IRS expects you to be the adult. You can t deduct

> yourself as a child. So enjoy the perks of being an adult.

>

> Object lesson:

>

> When I was a young sailor, a bunch of us went into a pool hall. We

> were talking like sailors as we missed our shots. The owner, and older

> man, probably like my age now, came over and said boys, I appreciate

> your business, but you need to mind your language. I don t allow that

> sort of talk in here.

>

> A few minutes later, another blast of blue notes from one of us, and he

> came over calmly , not mad, not raising his voice, and said , now fellas

> , you remember what I said? You are going to have to leave now. Next

> time you come to see me, I hope you ll remember.

>

> That incident stuck with me as an adult, being firm, but kind, and

> exerting himself for his safe boundaries.

>

> We can do it as well. And you know, it may seem you fight every minute,

> but after a while, people learn to know what you expect, and act

> accordingly.

>

> Unless they are a BP of course, which is a whole different game.

>

> I heard advice once, given to a teen girl. Sweetheart, act like you

> fully expect to be treated like a lady, pause at the door and smile

> sweetly and wait for it to be opened for you, act as if you fully expect

> someone to hold your seat for you. People , and boys, dumb as they

> are, will get the hint and either treat you like a lady, or run like

> hell because they don t know how to handle a woman.

>

> Act as if you expect to be treated properly. Very good advice. KO s

> would never think of that.

>

> till now.

>

>

>

> Doug

>

[Guest guest]

Publish This! It IS in the book, right?...

+Coal Miner's Daughter

>>

>

> But girl friend, you a SHO NUFF Woman! All growed up and wearing big

> girl panties. So, hard as it is, join me, let the little girl and the

> little boy know: Hey, kid? I got it. You don t have to do it anymore.

> I m here now. The adult. I ll handle it.

>

> Trust me, the IRS expects you to be the adult. You can t deduct

> yourself as a child. So enjoy the perks of being an adult.

>

> Object lesson:

>

> When I was a young sailor, a bunch of us went into a pool hall. We

> were talking like sailors as we missed our shots. The owner, and older

> man, probably like my age now, came over and said boys, I appreciate

> your business, but you need to mind your language. I don t allow that

> sort of talk in here.

>

> A few minutes later, another blast of blue notes from one of us, and he

> came over calmly , not mad, not raising his voice, and said , now fellas

> , you remember what I said? You are going to have to leave now. Next

> time you come to see me, I hope you ll remember.

>

> That incident stuck with me as an adult, being firm, but kind, and

> exerting himself for his safe boundaries.

>

> We can do it as well. And you know, it may seem you fight every minute,

> but after a while, people learn to know what you expect, and act

> accordingly.

>

> Unless they are a BP of course, which is a whole different game.

>

> I heard advice once, given to a teen girl. Sweetheart, act like you

> fully expect to be treated like a lady, pause at the door and smile

> sweetly and wait for it to be opened for you, act as if you fully expect

> someone to hold your seat for you. People , and boys, dumb as they

> are, will get the hint and either treat you like a lady, or run like

> hell because they don t know how to handle a woman.

>

> Act as if you expect to be treated properly. Very good advice. KO s

> would never think of that.

>

> till now.

>

>

>

> Doug

>