Re: Why am I not that person?

[Guest guest]

I feel for your anguish; I think Sister and I are at the beginning of that very

same situation now. Our nada is still able to take care of herself (needs no

nursing care) but she's starting to hallucinate more frequently and her

hallucinations are upsetting and frightening to nada. Sister and I know that

nada needs a psychiatric evaluation, but we can't force her to go get one.

Sister has enlisted our aunt/nada's sister to talk nada into at least seeing her

regular doctor. Sister has told nada's regular doctor that nada is starting to

hallucinate more frequently, so he wants to see her and we're hoping that he

will figure out a way to get nada to agree to see a psychiatrist.

You're right; nobody looks forward eagerly to being declared mentally

incompetent. Its just so freaking sad.

And its a completely no-win situation. If we arrange for her to be evaluated

we're interfering and controlling, and if we don't and let her handle it herself

then we don't care about her and we're selfish and thoughtless. Either way

we're hateful, horrible daughters according to nada.

Like you, Sister and I may simply have to wait until our nada causes some kind

of incident or her health deteriorates to such a degree that the choice is taken

away from her. I hope that she has enough rationality left to realize that she

really does need help, but I'm not counting on it. I'm just praying now that

nada doesn't do anything that will hurt herself or hurt other people (like

leaving the burner on and setting her apartment on fire) before this is all

over.

This is all just so ghastly and incredibly heart-wrenching, for everyone

concerned.

-Annie

>

> My BPD mother (yes, maybe someday I will call her nada, but five years of

Spanish taught me that nada means nothing and she is not nothing even as a

mother but yes, she did nearly ruin my life so let's not get stuck on semantics)

is a mean nasty miserable person. Right now she is old and disabled and clearly

in the early to middle stages of dementia, hallucinating and nodding off all the

time. But she refuses to see a doctor about this. She cancels the appointments I

make for her, and she rages at me " How dare you make appointments for me? " ...

Then she goes back to telling me how sad and scared and miserable and suicidal

she feels. Begging for help, then refusing all help. So I feel useless and cruel

and paralyzed and angry. Nobody wants to go to their doctors and get tested for

dementia -- no one. So can I blame her for being so upset about this? No? Yes? I

don't even know. It's just the same old BPD thing where she's the most negative

unhappy person on earth and her unhappiness controls everything and everyone's

life.

>

> Does she have legitimate reasons to be unhappy? Yes. Old. Disabled. Widowed.

Can't drive anymore. Getting demented. No relatives (who haven't gone NC) except

me.

>

> Does she have legitimate reasons not to be unhappy? Who knows. Alive. Has at

least one person on earth who cares about her. Has her own home to live in. Has

a paid helper who helps. Not in pain.

>

> Society would say, " FORCE her to see her doctor asap. TAKE her to the doctor

yourSELF. " ... Ah, but society doesn't have a BPD parent.

>

> Is it a BPD thing, this dynamic where they make it impossible to help them,

then make you feel terrible for being unable to help them? Where they're crying

and screaming all the time, sad and furious, but when you try to help they

either (a) undo your efforts, ( criticize your efforts, © ignore your

efforts, and/or (d) make things worse....

>

> I'm not fishing for gratitude. I know she has troubles and I can't expect her

to ... I don't even know what to say here, as our reality as the children of

BPDs is so skewed. How do normal parents who are depressed and troubled and ill

treat their children? Do they let their children help them? Do they scream and

curse at their children? Do they tell their children in every conversation that

they want to kill themselves?

>

> How can I be angry at someone who's in terrible shape? Someone with a terrible

life?

>

> Husband says BPD Mom gave herself that terrible life by making terrible

choices that impacted her health bigtime. Having BPD, she would never understand

that, and although it has been explained to her -- while she was making those

choices -- she just kept at it, because BPDs never learn from their experiences

and act like three-year-olds (without the joy).

>

> I am about to make yet another doctor's appointment for her, but I cannot

force her to go, short of flying 500 miles and shoving her into a taxi (I don't

drive either). And you know ... other adults would do that for their parents.

They would say, " I love Dad or Mom so much that I'll get him or her the best

care possible by any means necessary. " Why don't I say that? Why am I not that

person? Hmmm....

>

> But I'm so conflicted. I try and she rejects my help. Again. Again. Nothing

will change her. Seeing the doctor will only get us a diagnosis, which will

allow me to make some decisions regarding her future care (so it's out of her

hands -- oh just what I love, additional responsibility over the life of a mean

nasty paranoid BPD).

>

> Sorry to ramble here. Just got off the phone after a very conflicting

long-distance conversation.

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Annie. So true: heart-wrenching however you look at it.

Here is the person who singlehandedly created 99.9 percent of the misery in my

life, the person who spent my childhood saying " I love you, I love you, " and

making me say (and feel) it back but poisoned my mind with fear and panic and

depression and self-loathing and a-sexuality. I would be dead now, long since

dead, were it not for Husband and Childhood Best Friend (two relationships that

BPD Mom tried to destroy -- saying " I'd like to strangle that f**king little

slut " about CBF when we were kids and begging me to dump H because we " have

nothing in common " ). This is the person from whom other close relatives (though

I'm an only child) have gone NC to save themselves (they told me), leaving me

alone to deal with her.

And now. Dementia makes her more paranoid, more hallucinative, more illogical --

all those BPD traits in extremis, and the parts of her original personality that

still sometimes emerge are as mean and horrible as always. Which is worse? It's

the same, more of the same, and it's all awful, and it makes my whole life and

her whole life look so pointless and twisted and wasted in retrospect. Sweet old

parents get Alzheimer's too. This is a tragedy. We have all seen this. But when

it's a raging mean person who was already mentally ill?

Other adult children deal with this. When it's a sweet old parent with

Alzheimer's, the adult children hire home help, or move the sweet old parent

into a care facility. This is painful for all, but it happens, and the sweet old

person compliantly goes along with it.

When it's a BPD person whose entire personality is based on resistance,

negativity, paranoia, and screaming, even the simplest steps -- such as getting

your nada and mine to their own GPs for a preliminary visit -- become huge

traumas. Ha ha, just when I thought I had a chance of getting my life back ...

nope, it's time to plunge back into the unremitting horror of her world --

complete with her filthy bathroom, anorexia, and ... screaming.

(Clean her bathroom yourself, you selfish offspring, says society, and I did on

our last visit, but I don't live there and she refuses to hire a cleaning lady

because she's ashamed to let the cleaning lady see her house. Plus she's too

cheap to pay for it. And if I try to pay for it I'm intrusive and controlling.

And she lies to me and says she hired someone. But she hasn't. But I

half-believe her lies. Because I'm a KO and I'm f**ked.)

I've just made an appointment for her to see her GP. Praying praying praying

that she will go. Husband says that he and I will fly to her town, get her house

in shape for a caregiver to move in, then hire a caregiver, show her the ropes,

endure BPD Mom's justified sorrow over this awful transition into near-total

dependence, then leave. Back to our own lives and ... I don't know.

I sacrificed most of my sanity to her. I have always felt not like a real whole

person but 65 percent of a person, the dregs that are left from her

never-ever-diagnosed mental illness and its effects, enhanced by non-BPD but

angry Dad's constant disapproving jibes. They fed me, they clothed me, they took

me on vacations, other kids envied me. How dare I say they wrecked my life? How

dare I complain and think of myself when it is she who suffers now??

This is why I envy religious people because they would have Someone to beseech

at times like this. I wish I could say " Jesus take the wheel " but that wouldn't

be fair to Jesus....

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Annie. So true: heart-wrenching however you look at it.

Here is the person who singlehandedly created 99.9 percent of the misery in my

life, the person who spent my childhood saying " I love you, I love you, " and

making me say (and feel) it back but poisoned my mind with fear and panic and

depression and self-loathing and a-sexuality. I would be dead now, long since

dead, were it not for Husband and Childhood Best Friend (two relationships that

BPD Mom tried to destroy -- saying " I'd like to strangle that f**king little

slut " about CBF when we were kids and begging me to dump H because we " have

nothing in common " ). This is the person from whom other close relatives (though

I'm an only child) have gone NC to save themselves (they told me), leaving me

alone to deal with her.

And now. Dementia makes her more paranoid, more hallucinative, more illogical --

all those BPD traits in extremis, and the parts of her original personality that

still sometimes emerge are as mean and horrible as always. Which is worse? It's

the same, more of the same, and it's all awful, and it makes my whole life and

her whole life look so pointless and twisted and wasted in retrospect. Sweet old

parents get Alzheimer's too. This is a tragedy. We have all seen this. But when

it's a raging mean person who was already mentally ill?

Other adult children deal with this. When it's a sweet old parent with

Alzheimer's, the adult children hire home help, or move the sweet old parent

into a care facility. This is painful for all, but it happens, and the sweet old

person compliantly goes along with it.

When it's a BPD person whose entire personality is based on resistance,

negativity, paranoia, and screaming, even the simplest steps -- such as getting

your nada and mine to their own GPs for a preliminary visit -- become huge

traumas. Ha ha, just when I thought I had a chance of getting my life back ...

nope, it's time to plunge back into the unremitting horror of her world --

complete with her filthy bathroom, anorexia, and ... screaming.

(Clean her bathroom yourself, you selfish offspring, says society, and I did on

our last visit, but I don't live there and she refuses to hire a cleaning lady

because she's ashamed to let the cleaning lady see her house. Plus she's too

cheap to pay for it. And if I try to pay for it I'm intrusive and controlling.

And she lies to me and says she hired someone. But she hasn't. But I

half-believe her lies. Because I'm a KO and I'm f**ked.)

I've just made an appointment for her to see her GP. Praying praying praying

that she will go. Husband says that he and I will fly to her town, get her house

in shape for a caregiver to move in, then hire a caregiver, show her the ropes,

endure BPD Mom's justified sorrow over this awful transition into near-total

dependence, then leave. Back to our own lives and ... I don't know.

I sacrificed most of my sanity to her. I have always felt not like a real whole

person but 65 percent of a person, the dregs that are left from her

never-ever-diagnosed mental illness and its effects, enhanced by non-BPD but

angry Dad's constant disapproving jibes. They fed me, they clothed me, they took

me on vacations, other kids envied me. How dare I say they wrecked my life? How

dare I complain and think of myself when it is she who suffers now??

This is why I envy religious people because they would have Someone to beseech

at times like this. I wish I could say " Jesus take the wheel " but that wouldn't

be fair to Jesus....

[Guest guest]

The way I see it, there are at least two issues here. One is

that your mother is at the point where she is unable to care for

herself but won't admit it. The second is that you feel like you

have to fix this problem yourself.

I think you may be suffering too much from the common KO idea

that you are the one who has to fix everything for your BPD

mother. That's just not possible. You don't have to do it all

alone - you can ask for help. One thing to remember here is

that old people suffering from dementia can be hard to deal with

even without BPD. Dementia and some of the things that cause it

can change people's personalities. Strokes can cause calm people

to become belligerent for example. When someone no longer

recognizes their relatives, they don't necessarily understand

the things those relatives are doing to help. My grandmother was

a very sweet woman. She ended up with rather sudden dementia

brought on by blood clots in her brain, probably as a side

effect of hip surgery. She woke up in the middle of the night on

Christmas eve one year and didn't know who my grandfather was.

She ran to the neighbors to get them to call the police to get

rid of the strange old man in her bed. She became quite hard to

deal with at times because she was terrified of the thieves she

believed were living upstairs and of various " strangers " who

were people she didn't recognize any more. She ended up with

Alzheimer's disease as well. People who regularly deal with the

elderly know ways of handling people with dementia and helping

them, even when they don't want to be helped. Have you

investigated what help is available where your mother lives?

Does the local government have an Office for the Aging or an

eldercare department of some sort? If they do, try talking to

them about what help is available to you in dealing with your

mother's problems. Find out what the legal options are in her

state, both for forcing her to get help and for what

responsibilities you have to take on in this matter. Don't beat

yourself up for not being able to force her to go to the doctor.

This isn't a matter of not loving her enough to be able to force

her to get care. Other people don't all say " I love Dad or Mom

so much that I'll get him or her the best care possible by any

means necessary " then force them into a taxi. Sometimes that

works. Sometimes it doesn't. How much someone loves their parent

is not really what determines whether it works or not. Sometimes

they have to take other not-so-nice steps to deal with the

situation. Sometimes they have to get a court to declare a

parent incompetent, or have the parent forcibly hospitalized as

a danger to herself/himself or others. The fact that you can't

force your mother to go to a doctor is NOT a defect in you.

You ask " why am I not that person? " but the " that person " of

your question seems more like an impossible ideal not a real

person. Dealing with a parent with dementia is hard enough

without beating yourself up about not being able to do the

impossible, so try not to be hard on yourelf out of unrealistic

expectations.

At 12:52 AM 01/03/2011 justicecamp wrote:

>My BPD mother (yes, maybe someday I will call her nada, but

>five years of Spanish taught me that nada means nothing and she

>is not nothing even as a mother but yes, she did nearly ruin my

>life so let's not get stuck on semantics) is a mean nasty

>miserable person. Right now she is old and disabled and clearly

>in the early to middle stages of dementia, hallucinating and

>nodding off all the time. But she refuses to see a doctor about

>this. She cancels the appointments I make for her, and she

>rages at me " How dare you make appointments for me? " ... Then

>she goes back to telling me how sad and scared and miserable

>and suicidal she feels. Begging for help, then refusing all

>help. So I feel useless and cruel and paralyzed and angry.

>Nobody wants to go to their doctors and get tested for dementia

>-- no one. So can I blame her for being so upset about this?

>No? Yes? I don't even know. It's just the same old BPD thing

>where she's the most negative unhappy person on earth and her

>unhappiness controls everything and everyone's life.

>

>Does she have legitimate reasons to be unhappy? Yes. Old.

>Disabled. Widowed. Can't drive anymore. Getting demented. No

>relatives (who haven't gone NC) except me.

>

>Does she have legitimate reasons not to be unhappy? Who knows.

>Alive. Has at least one person on earth who cares about her.

>Has her own home to live in. Has a paid helper who helps. Not

>in pain.

>

>Society would say, " FORCE her to see her doctor asap. TAKE her

>to the doctor yourSELF. " ... Ah, but society doesn't have a BPD

>parent.

>

>Is it a BPD thing, this dynamic where they make it impossible

>to help them, then make you feel terrible for being unable to

>help them? Where they're crying and screaming all the time, sad

>and furious, but when you try to help they either (a) undo your

>efforts, ( criticize your efforts, © ignore your efforts,

>and/or (d) make things worse....

>

>I'm not fishing for gratitude. I know she has troubles and I

>can't expect her to ... I don't even know what to say here, as

>our reality as the children of BPDs is so skewed. How do normal

>parents who are depressed and troubled and ill treat their

>children? Do they let their children help them? Do they scream

>and curse at their children? Do they tell their children in

>every conversation that they want to kill themselves?

>

>How can I be angry at someone who's in terrible shape? Someone

>with a terrible life?

>

>Husband says BPD Mom gave herself that terrible life by making

>terrible choices that impacted her health bigtime. Having BPD,

>she would never understand that, and although it has been

>explained to her -- while she was making those choices -- she

>just kept at it, because BPDs never learn from their

>experiences and act like three-year-olds (without the joy).

>

>I am about to make yet another doctor's appointment for her,

>but I cannot force her to go, short of flying 500 miles and

>shoving her into a taxi (I don't drive either). And you know

>... other adults would do that for their parents. They would

>say, " I love Dad or Mom so much that I'll get him or her the

>best care possible by any means necessary. " Why don't I say

>that? Why am I not that person? Hmmm....

>

>But I'm so conflicted. I try and she rejects my help. Again.

>Again. Nothing will change her. Seeing the doctor will only get

>us a diagnosis, which will allow me to make some decisions

>regarding her future care (so it's out of her hands -- oh just

>what I love, additional responsibility over the life of a mean

>nasty paranoid BPD).

>

>Sorry to ramble here. Just got off the phone after a very

>conflicting long-distance conversation.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

The way I see it, there are at least two issues here. One is

that your mother is at the point where she is unable to care for

herself but won't admit it. The second is that you feel like you

have to fix this problem yourself.

I think you may be suffering too much from the common KO idea

that you are the one who has to fix everything for your BPD

mother. That's just not possible. You don't have to do it all

alone - you can ask for help. One thing to remember here is

that old people suffering from dementia can be hard to deal with

even without BPD. Dementia and some of the things that cause it

can change people's personalities. Strokes can cause calm people

to become belligerent for example. When someone no longer

recognizes their relatives, they don't necessarily understand

the things those relatives are doing to help. My grandmother was

a very sweet woman. She ended up with rather sudden dementia

brought on by blood clots in her brain, probably as a side

effect of hip surgery. She woke up in the middle of the night on

Christmas eve one year and didn't know who my grandfather was.

She ran to the neighbors to get them to call the police to get

rid of the strange old man in her bed. She became quite hard to

deal with at times because she was terrified of the thieves she

believed were living upstairs and of various " strangers " who

were people she didn't recognize any more. She ended up with

Alzheimer's disease as well. People who regularly deal with the

elderly know ways of handling people with dementia and helping

them, even when they don't want to be helped. Have you

investigated what help is available where your mother lives?

Does the local government have an Office for the Aging or an

eldercare department of some sort? If they do, try talking to

them about what help is available to you in dealing with your

mother's problems. Find out what the legal options are in her

state, both for forcing her to get help and for what

responsibilities you have to take on in this matter. Don't beat

yourself up for not being able to force her to go to the doctor.

This isn't a matter of not loving her enough to be able to force

her to get care. Other people don't all say " I love Dad or Mom

so much that I'll get him or her the best care possible by any

means necessary " then force them into a taxi. Sometimes that

works. Sometimes it doesn't. How much someone loves their parent

is not really what determines whether it works or not. Sometimes

they have to take other not-so-nice steps to deal with the

situation. Sometimes they have to get a court to declare a

parent incompetent, or have the parent forcibly hospitalized as

a danger to herself/himself or others. The fact that you can't

force your mother to go to a doctor is NOT a defect in you.

You ask " why am I not that person? " but the " that person " of

your question seems more like an impossible ideal not a real

person. Dealing with a parent with dementia is hard enough

without beating yourself up about not being able to do the

impossible, so try not to be hard on yourelf out of unrealistic

expectations.

At 12:52 AM 01/03/2011 justicecamp wrote:

>My BPD mother (yes, maybe someday I will call her nada, but

>five years of Spanish taught me that nada means nothing and she

>is not nothing even as a mother but yes, she did nearly ruin my

>life so let's not get stuck on semantics) is a mean nasty

>miserable person. Right now she is old and disabled and clearly

>in the early to middle stages of dementia, hallucinating and

>nodding off all the time. But she refuses to see a doctor about

>this. She cancels the appointments I make for her, and she

>rages at me " How dare you make appointments for me? " ... Then

>she goes back to telling me how sad and scared and miserable

>and suicidal she feels. Begging for help, then refusing all

>help. So I feel useless and cruel and paralyzed and angry.

>Nobody wants to go to their doctors and get tested for dementia

>-- no one. So can I blame her for being so upset about this?

>No? Yes? I don't even know. It's just the same old BPD thing

>where she's the most negative unhappy person on earth and her

>unhappiness controls everything and everyone's life.

>

>Does she have legitimate reasons to be unhappy? Yes. Old.

>Disabled. Widowed. Can't drive anymore. Getting demented. No

>relatives (who haven't gone NC) except me.

>

>Does she have legitimate reasons not to be unhappy? Who knows.

>Alive. Has at least one person on earth who cares about her.

>Has her own home to live in. Has a paid helper who helps. Not

>in pain.

>

>Society would say, " FORCE her to see her doctor asap. TAKE her

>to the doctor yourSELF. " ... Ah, but society doesn't have a BPD

>parent.

>

>Is it a BPD thing, this dynamic where they make it impossible

>to help them, then make you feel terrible for being unable to

>help them? Where they're crying and screaming all the time, sad

>and furious, but when you try to help they either (a) undo your

>efforts, ( criticize your efforts, © ignore your efforts,

>and/or (d) make things worse....

>

>I'm not fishing for gratitude. I know she has troubles and I

>can't expect her to ... I don't even know what to say here, as

>our reality as the children of BPDs is so skewed. How do normal

>parents who are depressed and troubled and ill treat their

>children? Do they let their children help them? Do they scream

>and curse at their children? Do they tell their children in

>every conversation that they want to kill themselves?

>

>How can I be angry at someone who's in terrible shape? Someone

>with a terrible life?

>

>Husband says BPD Mom gave herself that terrible life by making

>terrible choices that impacted her health bigtime. Having BPD,

>she would never understand that, and although it has been

>explained to her -- while she was making those choices -- she

>just kept at it, because BPDs never learn from their

>experiences and act like three-year-olds (without the joy).

>

>I am about to make yet another doctor's appointment for her,

>but I cannot force her to go, short of flying 500 miles and

>shoving her into a taxi (I don't drive either). And you know

>... other adults would do that for their parents. They would

>say, " I love Dad or Mom so much that I'll get him or her the

>best care possible by any means necessary. " Why don't I say

>that? Why am I not that person? Hmmm....

>

>But I'm so conflicted. I try and she rejects my help. Again.

>Again. Nothing will change her. Seeing the doctor will only get

>us a diagnosis, which will allow me to make some decisions

>regarding her future care (so it's out of her hands -- oh just

>what I love, additional responsibility over the life of a mean

>nasty paranoid BPD).

>

>Sorry to ramble here. Just got off the phone after a very

>conflicting long-distance conversation.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

I really do feel for you and what you are going through.

You should refer to her with whatever term you are comfortable with. I use

nada because for me, mine was " nada mother " . Nothing like a mother should

be. I also sometimes use momster. And with people who know me that I am

comfortable talking to about her, I use her first name. I am simply not

comfortable calling her mom or mother. She's never was what a mother should

be. Not to try & put a label on what all mom's have to be like... but there

are certain things that mothers should do. Mine did not, hence nada.

Anyway, I'm rambling (as I tend to do!) so I apologize! My point was, you

refer to her with whatever word you feel comfortable with =)

As for your situation here, it's your mother's choice to be happy & find

some joy in life. Does that mean she won't still have bad days where she

doesn't feel good? No. But to get through all that muck & find some joy in

life... That's her responsibility. No one else can do it for her. Not you,

not anyone. Only her. I also tend to agree with your hubby about her making

her own choices & the BPD getting in the way of her seeing that.

A lot of BPD mothers see themselves as flawless... nothing is their fault,

and I believe that makes some of them cold, bitter & angry. Does not mean

that all people who are cold, bitter & angry are BPD, but it is something I

believe can happen to them. Since no two people with BPD are alike, some

BPD mothers behave & end up feeling differently. But in my non-professional

opinion, your mother almost seems to sound waify... maybe she's the waif BPD

mother.

She is crying out for you to help her, but when you do she gets angry &

cancels doctor appointments, etc. This to me just reinforces the waif

thing. It sounds like she wants to be miserable, and in that she is trying

to suck you in. Misery loves company... especially BPD misery.

It sounds like she just wants pity from you & others. And this is her

choice, but it is also everyone else's choice to decide if they will give it

to her.

I just want you to know that you are not responsible for her decisions. I

know you love her and want to help her, but if she won't let you, what can

you do? I wish so badly you didn't have to suffer along with her =(

I agree with what you said about society saying to just take her to the

doctor, but they don't understand because most of society isn't dealing with

someone with BPD. Like I said, I agree... but I also agree to some extent

with society. It would probably cause a HUGE conflict, but what do you think

might happen if you made the appointment, didn't tell her, and just picked

her up & told her you were taking her to lunch or something? Like I said...

HUGE conflict with doing something like this (most likely)... but I'm

curious what your thoughts are on something like this. You know her so much

better than I do!

What about getting a doctor who does house calls? We actually are seeing

more doctors do that here in this area. Is there anyone near you doing

this?

I do think with her making suicidal threats that something needs to be done.

But again, suicidal threats seem to be common with many BPD mothers,

especially waifs. =( And I'm not sure if putting her in the hospital would

be a good thing or make it worse. With some it seems that they like going

to hospital because they get attention there. With others, it could

backfire. I have no idea what I would do in your situation.

Sorry you have to go through all of this. Wishing you lots of luck & sanity

too! (Goodness knows we all need a little bit of that lol)

Mia

>

>

> My BPD mother (yes, maybe someday I will call her nada, but five years of

> Spanish taught me that nada means nothing and she is not nothing even as a

> mother but yes, she did nearly ruin my life so let's not get stuck on

> semantics) is a mean nasty miserable person. Right now she is old and

> disabled and clearly in the early to middle stages of dementia,

> hallucinating and nodding off all the time. But she refuses to see a doctor

> about this. She cancels the appointments I make for her, and she rages at me

> " How dare you make appointments for me? " ... Then she goes back to telling

> me how sad and scared and miserable and suicidal she feels. Begging for

> help, then refusing all help. So I feel useless and cruel and paralyzed and

> angry. Nobody wants to go to their doctors and get tested for dementia -- no

> one. So can I blame her for being so upset about this? No? Yes? I don't even

> know. It's just the same old BPD thing where she's the most negative unhappy

> person on earth and her unhappiness controls everything and everyone's life.

>

> Does she have legitimate reasons to be unhappy? Yes. Old. Disabled.

> Widowed. Can't drive anymore. Getting demented. No relatives (who haven't

> gone NC) except me.

>

> Does she have legitimate reasons not to be unhappy? Who knows. Alive. Has

> at least one person on earth who cares about her. Has her own home to live

> in. Has a paid helper who helps. Not in pain.

>

> Society would say, " FORCE her to see her doctor asap. TAKE her to the

> doctor yourSELF. " ... Ah, but society doesn't have a BPD parent.

>

> Is it a BPD thing, this dynamic where they make it impossible to help them,

> then make you feel terrible for being unable to help them? Where they're

> crying and screaming all the time, sad and furious, but when you try to help

> they either (a) undo your efforts, ( criticize your efforts, © ignore

> your efforts, and/or (d) make things worse....

>

> I'm not fishing for gratitude. I know she has troubles and I can't expect

> her to ... I don't even know what to say here, as our reality as the

> children of BPDs is so skewed. How do normal parents who are depressed and

> troubled and ill treat their children? Do they let their children help them?

> Do they scream and curse at their children? Do they tell their children in

> every conversation that they want to kill themselves?

>

> How can I be angry at someone who's in terrible shape? Someone with a

> terrible life?

>

> Husband says BPD Mom gave herself that terrible life by making terrible

> choices that impacted her health bigtime. Having BPD, she would never

> understand that, and although it has been explained to her -- while she was

> making those choices -- she just kept at it, because BPDs never learn from

> their experiences and act like three-year-olds (without the joy).

>

> I am about to make yet another doctor's appointment for her, but I cannot

> force her to go, short of flying 500 miles and shoving her into a taxi (I

> don't drive either). And you know ... other adults would do that for their

> parents. They would say, " I love Dad or Mom so much that I'll get him or her

> the best care possible by any means necessary. " Why don't I say that? Why am

> I not that person? Hmmm....

>

> But I'm so conflicted. I try and she rejects my help. Again. Again. Nothing

> will change her. Seeing the doctor will only get us a diagnosis, which will

> allow me to make some decisions regarding her future care (so it's out of

> her hands -- oh just what I love, additional responsibility over the life of

> a mean nasty paranoid BPD).

>

> Sorry to ramble here. Just got off the phone after a very conflicting

> long-distance conversation.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I really do feel for you and what you are going through.

You should refer to her with whatever term you are comfortable with. I use

nada because for me, mine was " nada mother " . Nothing like a mother should

be. I also sometimes use momster. And with people who know me that I am

comfortable talking to about her, I use her first name. I am simply not

comfortable calling her mom or mother. She's never was what a mother should

be. Not to try & put a label on what all mom's have to be like... but there

are certain things that mothers should do. Mine did not, hence nada.

Anyway, I'm rambling (as I tend to do!) so I apologize! My point was, you

refer to her with whatever word you feel comfortable with =)

As for your situation here, it's your mother's choice to be happy & find

some joy in life. Does that mean she won't still have bad days where she

doesn't feel good? No. But to get through all that muck & find some joy in

life... That's her responsibility. No one else can do it for her. Not you,

not anyone. Only her. I also tend to agree with your hubby about her making

her own choices & the BPD getting in the way of her seeing that.

A lot of BPD mothers see themselves as flawless... nothing is their fault,

and I believe that makes some of them cold, bitter & angry. Does not mean

that all people who are cold, bitter & angry are BPD, but it is something I

believe can happen to them. Since no two people with BPD are alike, some

BPD mothers behave & end up feeling differently. But in my non-professional

opinion, your mother almost seems to sound waify... maybe she's the waif BPD

mother.

She is crying out for you to help her, but when you do she gets angry &

cancels doctor appointments, etc. This to me just reinforces the waif

thing. It sounds like she wants to be miserable, and in that she is trying

to suck you in. Misery loves company... especially BPD misery.

It sounds like she just wants pity from you & others. And this is her

choice, but it is also everyone else's choice to decide if they will give it

to her.

I just want you to know that you are not responsible for her decisions. I

know you love her and want to help her, but if she won't let you, what can

you do? I wish so badly you didn't have to suffer along with her =(

I agree with what you said about society saying to just take her to the

doctor, but they don't understand because most of society isn't dealing with

someone with BPD. Like I said, I agree... but I also agree to some extent

with society. It would probably cause a HUGE conflict, but what do you think

might happen if you made the appointment, didn't tell her, and just picked

her up & told her you were taking her to lunch or something? Like I said...

HUGE conflict with doing something like this (most likely)... but I'm

curious what your thoughts are on something like this. You know her so much

better than I do!

What about getting a doctor who does house calls? We actually are seeing

more doctors do that here in this area. Is there anyone near you doing

this?

I do think with her making suicidal threats that something needs to be done.

But again, suicidal threats seem to be common with many BPD mothers,

especially waifs. =( And I'm not sure if putting her in the hospital would

be a good thing or make it worse. With some it seems that they like going

to hospital because they get attention there. With others, it could

backfire. I have no idea what I would do in your situation.

Sorry you have to go through all of this. Wishing you lots of luck & sanity

too! (Goodness knows we all need a little bit of that lol)

Mia

>

>

> My BPD mother (yes, maybe someday I will call her nada, but five years of

> Spanish taught me that nada means nothing and she is not nothing even as a

> mother but yes, she did nearly ruin my life so let's not get stuck on

> semantics) is a mean nasty miserable person. Right now she is old and

> disabled and clearly in the early to middle stages of dementia,

> hallucinating and nodding off all the time. But she refuses to see a doctor

> about this. She cancels the appointments I make for her, and she rages at me

> " How dare you make appointments for me? " ... Then she goes back to telling

> me how sad and scared and miserable and suicidal she feels. Begging for

> help, then refusing all help. So I feel useless and cruel and paralyzed and

> angry. Nobody wants to go to their doctors and get tested for dementia -- no

> one. So can I blame her for being so upset about this? No? Yes? I don't even

> know. It's just the same old BPD thing where she's the most negative unhappy

> person on earth and her unhappiness controls everything and everyone's life.

>

> Does she have legitimate reasons to be unhappy? Yes. Old. Disabled.

> Widowed. Can't drive anymore. Getting demented. No relatives (who haven't

> gone NC) except me.

>

> Does she have legitimate reasons not to be unhappy? Who knows. Alive. Has

> at least one person on earth who cares about her. Has her own home to live

> in. Has a paid helper who helps. Not in pain.

>

> Society would say, " FORCE her to see her doctor asap. TAKE her to the

> doctor yourSELF. " ... Ah, but society doesn't have a BPD parent.

>

> Is it a BPD thing, this dynamic where they make it impossible to help them,

> then make you feel terrible for being unable to help them? Where they're

> crying and screaming all the time, sad and furious, but when you try to help

> they either (a) undo your efforts, ( criticize your efforts, © ignore

> your efforts, and/or (d) make things worse....

>

> I'm not fishing for gratitude. I know she has troubles and I can't expect

> her to ... I don't even know what to say here, as our reality as the

> children of BPDs is so skewed. How do normal parents who are depressed and

> troubled and ill treat their children? Do they let their children help them?

> Do they scream and curse at their children? Do they tell their children in

> every conversation that they want to kill themselves?

>

> How can I be angry at someone who's in terrible shape? Someone with a

> terrible life?

>

> Husband says BPD Mom gave herself that terrible life by making terrible

> choices that impacted her health bigtime. Having BPD, she would never

> understand that, and although it has been explained to her -- while she was

> making those choices -- she just kept at it, because BPDs never learn from

> their experiences and act like three-year-olds (without the joy).

>

> I am about to make yet another doctor's appointment for her, but I cannot

> force her to go, short of flying 500 miles and shoving her into a taxi (I

> don't drive either). And you know ... other adults would do that for their

> parents. They would say, " I love Dad or Mom so much that I'll get him or her

> the best care possible by any means necessary. " Why don't I say that? Why am

> I not that person? Hmmm....

>

> But I'm so conflicted. I try and she rejects my help. Again. Again. Nothing

> will change her. Seeing the doctor will only get us a diagnosis, which will

> allow me to make some decisions regarding her future care (so it's out of

> her hands -- oh just what I love, additional responsibility over the life of

> a mean nasty paranoid BPD).

>

> Sorry to ramble here. Just got off the phone after a very conflicting

> long-distance conversation.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I really do feel for you and what you are going through.

You should refer to her with whatever term you are comfortable with. I use

nada because for me, mine was " nada mother " . Nothing like a mother should

be. I also sometimes use momster. And with people who know me that I am

comfortable talking to about her, I use her first name. I am simply not

comfortable calling her mom or mother. She's never was what a mother should

be. Not to try & put a label on what all mom's have to be like... but there

are certain things that mothers should do. Mine did not, hence nada.

Anyway, I'm rambling (as I tend to do!) so I apologize! My point was, you

refer to her with whatever word you feel comfortable with =)

As for your situation here, it's your mother's choice to be happy & find

some joy in life. Does that mean she won't still have bad days where she

doesn't feel good? No. But to get through all that muck & find some joy in

life... That's her responsibility. No one else can do it for her. Not you,

not anyone. Only her. I also tend to agree with your hubby about her making

her own choices & the BPD getting in the way of her seeing that.

A lot of BPD mothers see themselves as flawless... nothing is their fault,

and I believe that makes some of them cold, bitter & angry. Does not mean

that all people who are cold, bitter & angry are BPD, but it is something I

believe can happen to them. Since no two people with BPD are alike, some

BPD mothers behave & end up feeling differently. But in my non-professional

opinion, your mother almost seems to sound waify... maybe she's the waif BPD

mother.

She is crying out for you to help her, but when you do she gets angry &

cancels doctor appointments, etc. This to me just reinforces the waif

thing. It sounds like she wants to be miserable, and in that she is trying

to suck you in. Misery loves company... especially BPD misery.

It sounds like she just wants pity from you & others. And this is her

choice, but it is also everyone else's choice to decide if they will give it

to her.

I just want you to know that you are not responsible for her decisions. I

know you love her and want to help her, but if she won't let you, what can

you do? I wish so badly you didn't have to suffer along with her =(

I agree with what you said about society saying to just take her to the

doctor, but they don't understand because most of society isn't dealing with

someone with BPD. Like I said, I agree... but I also agree to some extent

with society. It would probably cause a HUGE conflict, but what do you think

might happen if you made the appointment, didn't tell her, and just picked

her up & told her you were taking her to lunch or something? Like I said...

HUGE conflict with doing something like this (most likely)... but I'm

curious what your thoughts are on something like this. You know her so much

better than I do!

What about getting a doctor who does house calls? We actually are seeing

more doctors do that here in this area. Is there anyone near you doing

this?

I do think with her making suicidal threats that something needs to be done.

But again, suicidal threats seem to be common with many BPD mothers,

especially waifs. =( And I'm not sure if putting her in the hospital would

be a good thing or make it worse. With some it seems that they like going

to hospital because they get attention there. With others, it could

backfire. I have no idea what I would do in your situation.

Sorry you have to go through all of this. Wishing you lots of luck & sanity

too! (Goodness knows we all need a little bit of that lol)

Mia

>

>

> My BPD mother (yes, maybe someday I will call her nada, but five years of

> Spanish taught me that nada means nothing and she is not nothing even as a

> mother but yes, she did nearly ruin my life so let's not get stuck on

> semantics) is a mean nasty miserable person. Right now she is old and

> disabled and clearly in the early to middle stages of dementia,

> hallucinating and nodding off all the time. But she refuses to see a doctor

> about this. She cancels the appointments I make for her, and she rages at me

> " How dare you make appointments for me? " ... Then she goes back to telling

> me how sad and scared and miserable and suicidal she feels. Begging for

> help, then refusing all help. So I feel useless and cruel and paralyzed and

> angry. Nobody wants to go to their doctors and get tested for dementia -- no

> one. So can I blame her for being so upset about this? No? Yes? I don't even

> know. It's just the same old BPD thing where she's the most negative unhappy

> person on earth and her unhappiness controls everything and everyone's life.

>

> Does she have legitimate reasons to be unhappy? Yes. Old. Disabled.

> Widowed. Can't drive anymore. Getting demented. No relatives (who haven't

> gone NC) except me.

>

> Does she have legitimate reasons not to be unhappy? Who knows. Alive. Has

> at least one person on earth who cares about her. Has her own home to live

> in. Has a paid helper who helps. Not in pain.

>

> Society would say, " FORCE her to see her doctor asap. TAKE her to the

> doctor yourSELF. " ... Ah, but society doesn't have a BPD parent.

>

> Is it a BPD thing, this dynamic where they make it impossible to help them,

> then make you feel terrible for being unable to help them? Where they're

> crying and screaming all the time, sad and furious, but when you try to help

> they either (a) undo your efforts, ( criticize your efforts, © ignore

> your efforts, and/or (d) make things worse....

>

> I'm not fishing for gratitude. I know she has troubles and I can't expect

> her to ... I don't even know what to say here, as our reality as the

> children of BPDs is so skewed. How do normal parents who are depressed and

> troubled and ill treat their children? Do they let their children help them?

> Do they scream and curse at their children? Do they tell their children in

> every conversation that they want to kill themselves?

>

> How can I be angry at someone who's in terrible shape? Someone with a

> terrible life?

>

> Husband says BPD Mom gave herself that terrible life by making terrible

> choices that impacted her health bigtime. Having BPD, she would never

> understand that, and although it has been explained to her -- while she was

> making those choices -- she just kept at it, because BPDs never learn from

> their experiences and act like three-year-olds (without the joy).

>

> I am about to make yet another doctor's appointment for her, but I cannot

> force her to go, short of flying 500 miles and shoving her into a taxi (I

> don't drive either). And you know ... other adults would do that for their

> parents. They would say, " I love Dad or Mom so much that I'll get him or her

> the best care possible by any means necessary. " Why don't I say that? Why am

> I not that person? Hmmm....

>

> But I'm so conflicted. I try and she rejects my help. Again. Again. Nothing

> will change her. Seeing the doctor will only get us a diagnosis, which will

> allow me to make some decisions regarding her future care (so it's out of

> her hands -- oh just what I love, additional responsibility over the life of

> a mean nasty paranoid BPD).

>

> Sorry to ramble here. Just got off the phone after a very conflicting

> long-distance conversation.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I wish I had the answers for you. I'm going through the same thing with mine.

She's 82, angry, negative and demanding. She can't drive any more. My husband

and I take care of things around the house for her, do the shopping and yard

work. I'm an only child so I'm thankful my husband is so willing to be involved.

Mine hates her doctor, thinks he doesn't care and is hiding some dread diagnosis

from her but she refuses to change. It's a losing battle. Like you, I do what I

can, try to tune out all the garbage she says and then wait for some incident to

take place that will change things. She won't move out of her house even though

it's too much for her.

There are ways to have her evaluated at home discreetly without dragging her to

the doctor's office. If her doctor is willing to talk to you (my nada's doctor

won't talk to me after she told him I was financially abusing her), ask to have

a home nurse sent to her house for some reason. She would probably like the

attention and the nurse can check on her physical abilities, mental

understanding and such. My husband is a hospice volunteer and has to do a weekly

assessment of these types of things with his patient.

Perhaps that would help. As the Adult Protection Services told us, she needs to

be evaluated by a doctor and then if she needs to be moved out of the house, it

will be the doctor's decision, not yours. S/he will be the bad guy and have the

authority to make it happen.

>

> My BPD mother (yes, maybe someday I will call her nada, but five years of

Spanish taught me that nada means nothing and she is not nothing even as a

mother but yes, she did nearly ruin my life so let's not get stuck on semantics)

is a mean nasty miserable person. Right now she is old and disabled and clearly

in the early to middle stages of dementia, hallucinating and nodding off all the

time. But she refuses to see a doctor about this. She cancels the appointments I

make for her, and she rages at me " How dare you make appointments for me? " ...

Then she goes back to telling me how sad and scared and miserable and suicidal

she feels. Begging for help, then refusing all help. So I feel useless and cruel

and paralyzed and angry. Nobody wants to go to their doctors and get tested for

dementia -- no one. So can I blame her for being so upset about this? No? Yes? I

don't even know. It's just the same old BPD thing where she's the most negative

unhappy person on earth and her unhappiness controls everything and everyone's

life.

>

> Does she have legitimate reasons to be unhappy? Yes. Old. Disabled. Widowed.

Can't drive anymore. Getting demented. No relatives (who haven't gone NC) except

me.

>

> Does she have legitimate reasons not to be unhappy? Who knows. Alive. Has at

least one person on earth who cares about her. Has her own home to live in. Has

a paid helper who helps. Not in pain.

>

> Society would say, " FORCE her to see her doctor asap. TAKE her to the doctor

yourSELF. " ... Ah, but society doesn't have a BPD parent.

>

> Is it a BPD thing, this dynamic where they make it impossible to help them,

then make you feel terrible for being unable to help them? Where they're crying

and screaming all the time, sad and furious, but when you try to help they

either (a) undo your efforts, ( criticize your efforts, © ignore your

efforts, and/or (d) make things worse....

>

> I'm not fishing for gratitude. I know she has troubles and I can't expect her

to ... I don't even know what to say here, as our reality as the children of

BPDs is so skewed. How do normal parents who are depressed and troubled and ill

treat their children? Do they let their children help them? Do they scream and

curse at their children? Do they tell their children in every conversation that

they want to kill themselves?

>

> How can I be angry at someone who's in terrible shape? Someone with a terrible

life?

>

> Husband says BPD Mom gave herself that terrible life by making terrible

choices that impacted her health bigtime. Having BPD, she would never understand

that, and although it has been explained to her -- while she was making those

choices -- she just kept at it, because BPDs never learn from their experiences

and act like three-year-olds (without the joy).

>

> I am about to make yet another doctor's appointment for her, but I cannot

force her to go, short of flying 500 miles and shoving her into a taxi (I don't

drive either). And you know ... other adults would do that for their parents.

They would say, " I love Dad or Mom so much that I'll get him or her the best

care possible by any means necessary. " Why don't I say that? Why am I not that

person? Hmmm....

>

> But I'm so conflicted. I try and she rejects my help. Again. Again. Nothing

will change her. Seeing the doctor will only get us a diagnosis, which will

allow me to make some decisions regarding her future care (so it's out of her

hands -- oh just what I love, additional responsibility over the life of a mean

nasty paranoid BPD).

>

> Sorry to ramble here. Just got off the phone after a very conflicting

long-distance conversation.

>

[Guest guest]

Good advice Irene.

Mia

>

>

> I wish I had the answers for you. I'm going through the same thing with

> mine. She's 82, angry, negative and demanding. She can't drive any more. My

> husband and I take care of things around the house for her, do the shopping

> and yard work. I'm an only child so I'm thankful my husband is so willing to

> be involved. Mine hates her doctor, thinks he doesn't care and is hiding

> some dread diagnosis from her but she refuses to change. It's a losing

> battle. Like you, I do what I can, try to tune out all the garbage she says

> and then wait for some incident to take place that will change things. She

> won't move out of her house even though it's too much for her.

>

> There are ways to have her evaluated at home discreetly without dragging

> her to the doctor's office. If her doctor is willing to talk to you (my

> nada's doctor won't talk to me after she told him I was financially abusing

> her), ask to have a home nurse sent to her house for some reason. She would

> probably like the attention and the nurse can check on her physical

> abilities, mental understanding and such. My husband is a hospice volunteer

> and has to do a weekly assessment of these types of things with his patient.

>

>

> Perhaps that would help. As the Adult Protection Services told us, she

> needs to be evaluated by a doctor and then if she needs to be moved out of

> the house, it will be the doctor's decision, not yours. S/he will be the bad

> guy and have the authority to make it happen.

>

>

>

> >

> > My BPD mother (yes, maybe someday I will call her nada, but five years of

> Spanish taught me that nada means nothing and she is not nothing even as a

> mother but yes, she did nearly ruin my life so let's not get stuck on

> semantics) is a mean nasty miserable person. Right now she is old and

> disabled and clearly in the early to middle stages of dementia,

> hallucinating and nodding off all the time. But she refuses to see a doctor

> about this. She cancels the appointments I make for her, and she rages at me

> " How dare you make appointments for me? " ... Then she goes back to telling

> me how sad and scared and miserable and suicidal she feels. Begging for

> help, then refusing all help. So I feel useless and cruel and paralyzed and

> angry. Nobody wants to go to their doctors and get tested for dementia -- no

> one. So can I blame her for being so upset about this? No? Yes? I don't even

> know. It's just the same old BPD thing where she's the most negative unhappy

> person on earth and her unhappiness controls everything and everyone's life.

> >

> > Does she have legitimate reasons to be unhappy? Yes. Old. Disabled.

> Widowed. Can't drive anymore. Getting demented. No relatives (who haven't

> gone NC) except me.

> >

> > Does she have legitimate reasons not to be unhappy? Who knows. Alive. Has

> at least one person on earth who cares about her. Has her own home to live

> in. Has a paid helper who helps. Not in pain.

> >

> > Society would say, " FORCE her to see her doctor asap. TAKE her to the

> doctor yourSELF. " ... Ah, but society doesn't have a BPD parent.

> >

> > Is it a BPD thing, this dynamic where they make it impossible to help

> them, then make you feel terrible for being unable to help them? Where

> they're crying and screaming all the time, sad and furious, but when you try

> to help they either (a) undo your efforts, ( criticize your efforts, ©

> ignore your efforts, and/or (d) make things worse....

> >

> > I'm not fishing for gratitude. I know she has troubles and I can't expect

> her to ... I don't even know what to say here, as our reality as the

> children of BPDs is so skewed. How do normal parents who are depressed and

> troubled and ill treat their children? Do they let their children help them?

> Do they scream and curse at their children? Do they tell their children in

> every conversation that they want to kill themselves?

> >

> > How can I be angry at someone who's in terrible shape? Someone with a

> terrible life?

> >

> > Husband says BPD Mom gave herself that terrible life by making terrible

> choices that impacted her health bigtime. Having BPD, she would never

> understand that, and although it has been explained to her -- while she was

> making those choices -- she just kept at it, because BPDs never learn from

> their experiences and act like three-year-olds (without the joy).

> >

> > I am about to make yet another doctor's appointment for her, but I cannot

> force her to go, short of flying 500 miles and shoving her into a taxi (I

> don't drive either). And you know ... other adults would do that for their

> parents. They would say, " I love Dad or Mom so much that I'll get him or her

> the best care possible by any means necessary. " Why don't I say that? Why am

> I not that person? Hmmm....

> >

> > But I'm so conflicted. I try and she rejects my help. Again. Again.

> Nothing will change her. Seeing the doctor will only get us a diagnosis,

> which will allow me to make some decisions regarding her future care (so

> it's out of her hands -- oh just what I love, additional responsibility over

> the life of a mean nasty paranoid BPD).

> >

> > Sorry to ramble here. Just got off the phone after a very conflicting

> long-distance conversation.

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Good advice Irene.

Mia

>

>

> I wish I had the answers for you. I'm going through the same thing with

> mine. She's 82, angry, negative and demanding. She can't drive any more. My

> husband and I take care of things around the house for her, do the shopping

> and yard work. I'm an only child so I'm thankful my husband is so willing to

> be involved. Mine hates her doctor, thinks he doesn't care and is hiding

> some dread diagnosis from her but she refuses to change. It's a losing

> battle. Like you, I do what I can, try to tune out all the garbage she says

> and then wait for some incident to take place that will change things. She

> won't move out of her house even though it's too much for her.

>

> There are ways to have her evaluated at home discreetly without dragging

> her to the doctor's office. If her doctor is willing to talk to you (my

> nada's doctor won't talk to me after she told him I was financially abusing

> her), ask to have a home nurse sent to her house for some reason. She would

> probably like the attention and the nurse can check on her physical

> abilities, mental understanding and such. My husband is a hospice volunteer

> and has to do a weekly assessment of these types of things with his patient.

>

>

> Perhaps that would help. As the Adult Protection Services told us, she

> needs to be evaluated by a doctor and then if she needs to be moved out of

> the house, it will be the doctor's decision, not yours. S/he will be the bad

> guy and have the authority to make it happen.

>

>

>

> >

> > My BPD mother (yes, maybe someday I will call her nada, but five years of

> Spanish taught me that nada means nothing and she is not nothing even as a

> mother but yes, she did nearly ruin my life so let's not get stuck on

> semantics) is a mean nasty miserable person. Right now she is old and

> disabled and clearly in the early to middle stages of dementia,

> hallucinating and nodding off all the time. But she refuses to see a doctor

> about this. She cancels the appointments I make for her, and she rages at me

> " How dare you make appointments for me? " ... Then she goes back to telling

> me how sad and scared and miserable and suicidal she feels. Begging for

> help, then refusing all help. So I feel useless and cruel and paralyzed and

> angry. Nobody wants to go to their doctors and get tested for dementia -- no

> one. So can I blame her for being so upset about this? No? Yes? I don't even

> know. It's just the same old BPD thing where she's the most negative unhappy

> person on earth and her unhappiness controls everything and everyone's life.

> >

> > Does she have legitimate reasons to be unhappy? Yes. Old. Disabled.

> Widowed. Can't drive anymore. Getting demented. No relatives (who haven't

> gone NC) except me.

> >

> > Does she have legitimate reasons not to be unhappy? Who knows. Alive. Has

> at least one person on earth who cares about her. Has her own home to live

> in. Has a paid helper who helps. Not in pain.

> >

> > Society would say, " FORCE her to see her doctor asap. TAKE her to the

> doctor yourSELF. " ... Ah, but society doesn't have a BPD parent.

> >

> > Is it a BPD thing, this dynamic where they make it impossible to help

> them, then make you feel terrible for being unable to help them? Where

> they're crying and screaming all the time, sad and furious, but when you try

> to help they either (a) undo your efforts, ( criticize your efforts, ©

> ignore your efforts, and/or (d) make things worse....

> >

> > I'm not fishing for gratitude. I know she has troubles and I can't expect

> her to ... I don't even know what to say here, as our reality as the

> children of BPDs is so skewed. How do normal parents who are depressed and

> troubled and ill treat their children? Do they let their children help them?

> Do they scream and curse at their children? Do they tell their children in

> every conversation that they want to kill themselves?

> >

> > How can I be angry at someone who's in terrible shape? Someone with a

> terrible life?

> >

> > Husband says BPD Mom gave herself that terrible life by making terrible

> choices that impacted her health bigtime. Having BPD, she would never

> understand that, and although it has been explained to her -- while she was

> making those choices -- she just kept at it, because BPDs never learn from

> their experiences and act like three-year-olds (without the joy).

> >

> > I am about to make yet another doctor's appointment for her, but I cannot

> force her to go, short of flying 500 miles and shoving her into a taxi (I

> don't drive either). And you know ... other adults would do that for their

> parents. They would say, " I love Dad or Mom so much that I'll get him or her

> the best care possible by any means necessary. " Why don't I say that? Why am

> I not that person? Hmmm....

> >

> > But I'm so conflicted. I try and she rejects my help. Again. Again.

> Nothing will change her. Seeing the doctor will only get us a diagnosis,

> which will allow me to make some decisions regarding her future care (so

> it's out of her hands -- oh just what I love, additional responsibility over

> the life of a mean nasty paranoid BPD).

> >

> > Sorry to ramble here. Just got off the phone after a very conflicting

> long-distance conversation.

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Good advice Irene.

Mia

>

>

> I wish I had the answers for you. I'm going through the same thing with

> mine. She's 82, angry, negative and demanding. She can't drive any more. My

> husband and I take care of things around the house for her, do the shopping

> and yard work. I'm an only child so I'm thankful my husband is so willing to

> be involved. Mine hates her doctor, thinks he doesn't care and is hiding

> some dread diagnosis from her but she refuses to change. It's a losing

> battle. Like you, I do what I can, try to tune out all the garbage she says

> and then wait for some incident to take place that will change things. She

> won't move out of her house even though it's too much for her.

>

> There are ways to have her evaluated at home discreetly without dragging

> her to the doctor's office. If her doctor is willing to talk to you (my

> nada's doctor won't talk to me after she told him I was financially abusing

> her), ask to have a home nurse sent to her house for some reason. She would

> probably like the attention and the nurse can check on her physical

> abilities, mental understanding and such. My husband is a hospice volunteer

> and has to do a weekly assessment of these types of things with his patient.

>

>

> Perhaps that would help. As the Adult Protection Services told us, she

> needs to be evaluated by a doctor and then if she needs to be moved out of

> the house, it will be the doctor's decision, not yours. S/he will be the bad

> guy and have the authority to make it happen.

>

>

>

> >

> > My BPD mother (yes, maybe someday I will call her nada, but five years of

> Spanish taught me that nada means nothing and she is not nothing even as a

> mother but yes, she did nearly ruin my life so let's not get stuck on

> semantics) is a mean nasty miserable person. Right now she is old and

> disabled and clearly in the early to middle stages of dementia,

> hallucinating and nodding off all the time. But she refuses to see a doctor

> about this. She cancels the appointments I make for her, and she rages at me

> " How dare you make appointments for me? " ... Then she goes back to telling

> me how sad and scared and miserable and suicidal she feels. Begging for

> help, then refusing all help. So I feel useless and cruel and paralyzed and

> angry. Nobody wants to go to their doctors and get tested for dementia -- no

> one. So can I blame her for being so upset about this? No? Yes? I don't even

> know. It's just the same old BPD thing where she's the most negative unhappy

> person on earth and her unhappiness controls everything and everyone's life.

> >

> > Does she have legitimate reasons to be unhappy? Yes. Old. Disabled.

> Widowed. Can't drive anymore. Getting demented. No relatives (who haven't

> gone NC) except me.

> >

> > Does she have legitimate reasons not to be unhappy? Who knows. Alive. Has

> at least one person on earth who cares about her. Has her own home to live

> in. Has a paid helper who helps. Not in pain.

> >

> > Society would say, " FORCE her to see her doctor asap. TAKE her to the

> doctor yourSELF. " ... Ah, but society doesn't have a BPD parent.

> >

> > Is it a BPD thing, this dynamic where they make it impossible to help

> them, then make you feel terrible for being unable to help them? Where

> they're crying and screaming all the time, sad and furious, but when you try

> to help they either (a) undo your efforts, ( criticize your efforts, ©

> ignore your efforts, and/or (d) make things worse....

> >

> > I'm not fishing for gratitude. I know she has troubles and I can't expect

> her to ... I don't even know what to say here, as our reality as the

> children of BPDs is so skewed. How do normal parents who are depressed and

> troubled and ill treat their children? Do they let their children help them?

> Do they scream and curse at their children? Do they tell their children in

> every conversation that they want to kill themselves?

> >

> > How can I be angry at someone who's in terrible shape? Someone with a

> terrible life?

> >

> > Husband says BPD Mom gave herself that terrible life by making terrible

> choices that impacted her health bigtime. Having BPD, she would never

> understand that, and although it has been explained to her -- while she was

> making those choices -- she just kept at it, because BPDs never learn from

> their experiences and act like three-year-olds (without the joy).

> >

> > I am about to make yet another doctor's appointment for her, but I cannot

> force her to go, short of flying 500 miles and shoving her into a taxi (I

> don't drive either). And you know ... other adults would do that for their

> parents. They would say, " I love Dad or Mom so much that I'll get him or her

> the best care possible by any means necessary. " Why don't I say that? Why am

> I not that person? Hmmm....

> >

> > But I'm so conflicted. I try and she rejects my help. Again. Again.

> Nothing will change her. Seeing the doctor will only get us a diagnosis,

> which will allow me to make some decisions regarding her future care (so

> it's out of her hands -- oh just what I love, additional responsibility over

> the life of a mean nasty paranoid BPD).

> >

> > Sorry to ramble here. Just got off the phone after a very conflicting

> long-distance conversation.

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You make a great point that there are people who specialize in dealing with

elderly dementia. For the first time, our BPD parent enters a zone of mental

illness that is socially recognized that has some precedents for how it should

be dealt with. I hope that will help us all out, hope it will help me as I

think the time is coming soon for my own nada as well.

Much sympathies to you JusticeCamp, it is a brutally hard problem. Please don't

hold yourself up to the ideal of " that person " because society's image is based

on an ideal that has nothing to do with the reality.

> >My BPD mother (yes, maybe someday I will call her nada, but

> >five years of Spanish taught me that nada means nothing and she

> >is not nothing even as a mother but yes, she did nearly ruin my

> >life so let's not get stuck on semantics) is a mean nasty

> >miserable person. Right now she is old and disabled and clearly

> >in the early to middle stages of dementia, hallucinating and

> >nodding off all the time. But she refuses to see a doctor about

> >this. She cancels the appointments I make for her, and she

> >rages at me " How dare you make appointments for me? " ... Then

> >she goes back to telling me how sad and scared and miserable

> >and suicidal she feels. Begging for help, then refusing all

> >help. So I feel useless and cruel and paralyzed and angry.

> >Nobody wants to go to their doctors and get tested for dementia

> >-- no one. So can I blame her for being so upset about this?

> >No? Yes? I don't even know. It's just the same old BPD thing

> >where she's the most negative unhappy person on earth and her

> >unhappiness controls everything and everyone's life.

> >

> >Does she have legitimate reasons to be unhappy? Yes. Old.

> >Disabled. Widowed. Can't drive anymore. Getting demented. No

> >relatives (who haven't gone NC) except me.

> >

> >Does she have legitimate reasons not to be unhappy? Who knows.

> >Alive. Has at least one person on earth who cares about her.

> >Has her own home to live in. Has a paid helper who helps. Not

> >in pain.

> >

> >Society would say, " FORCE her to see her doctor asap. TAKE her

> >to the doctor yourSELF. " ... Ah, but society doesn't have a BPD

> >parent.

> >

> >Is it a BPD thing, this dynamic where they make it impossible

> >to help them, then make you feel terrible for being unable to

> >help them? Where they're crying and screaming all the time, sad

> >and furious, but when you try to help they either (a) undo your

> >efforts, ( criticize your efforts, © ignore your efforts,

> >and/or (d) make things worse....

> >

> >I'm not fishing for gratitude. I know she has troubles and I

> >can't expect her to ... I don't even know what to say here, as

> >our reality as the children of BPDs is so skewed. How do normal

> >parents who are depressed and troubled and ill treat their

> >children? Do they let their children help them? Do they scream

> >and curse at their children? Do they tell their children in

> >every conversation that they want to kill themselves?

> >

> >How can I be angry at someone who's in terrible shape? Someone

> >with a terrible life?

> >

> >Husband says BPD Mom gave herself that terrible life by making

> >terrible choices that impacted her health bigtime. Having BPD,

> >she would never understand that, and although it has been

> >explained to her -- while she was making those choices -- she

> >just kept at it, because BPDs never learn from their

> >experiences and act like three-year-olds (without the joy).

> >

> >I am about to make yet another doctor's appointment for her,

> >but I cannot force her to go, short of flying 500 miles and

> >shoving her into a taxi (I don't drive either). And you know

> >... other adults would do that for their parents. They would

> >say, " I love Dad or Mom so much that I'll get him or her the

> >best care possible by any means necessary. " Why don't I say

> >that? Why am I not that person? Hmmm....

> >

> >But I'm so conflicted. I try and she rejects my help. Again.

> >Again. Nothing will change her. Seeing the doctor will only get

> >us a diagnosis, which will allow me to make some decisions

> >regarding her future care (so it's out of her hands -- oh just

> >what I love, additional responsibility over the life of a mean

> >nasty paranoid BPD).

> >

> >Sorry to ramble here. Just got off the phone after a very

> >conflicting long-distance conversation.

>

> --

> Katrina

>

[Guest guest]

You make a great point that there are people who specialize in dealing with

elderly dementia. For the first time, our BPD parent enters a zone of mental

illness that is socially recognized that has some precedents for how it should

be dealt with. I hope that will help us all out, hope it will help me as I

think the time is coming soon for my own nada as well.

Much sympathies to you JusticeCamp, it is a brutally hard problem. Please don't

hold yourself up to the ideal of " that person " because society's image is based

on an ideal that has nothing to do with the reality.

> >My BPD mother (yes, maybe someday I will call her nada, but

> >five years of Spanish taught me that nada means nothing and she

> >is not nothing even as a mother but yes, she did nearly ruin my

> >life so let's not get stuck on semantics) is a mean nasty

> >miserable person. Right now she is old and disabled and clearly

> >in the early to middle stages of dementia, hallucinating and

> >nodding off all the time. But she refuses to see a doctor about

> >this. She cancels the appointments I make for her, and she

> >rages at me " How dare you make appointments for me? " ... Then

> >she goes back to telling me how sad and scared and miserable

> >and suicidal she feels. Begging for help, then refusing all

> >help. So I feel useless and cruel and paralyzed and angry.

> >Nobody wants to go to their doctors and get tested for dementia

> >-- no one. So can I blame her for being so upset about this?

> >No? Yes? I don't even know. It's just the same old BPD thing

> >where she's the most negative unhappy person on earth and her

> >unhappiness controls everything and everyone's life.

> >

> >Does she have legitimate reasons to be unhappy? Yes. Old.

> >Disabled. Widowed. Can't drive anymore. Getting demented. No

> >relatives (who haven't gone NC) except me.

> >

> >Does she have legitimate reasons not to be unhappy? Who knows.

> >Alive. Has at least one person on earth who cares about her.

> >Has her own home to live in. Has a paid helper who helps. Not

> >in pain.

> >

> >Society would say, " FORCE her to see her doctor asap. TAKE her

> >to the doctor yourSELF. " ... Ah, but society doesn't have a BPD

> >parent.

> >

> >Is it a BPD thing, this dynamic where they make it impossible

> >to help them, then make you feel terrible for being unable to

> >help them? Where they're crying and screaming all the time, sad

> >and furious, but when you try to help they either (a) undo your

> >efforts, ( criticize your efforts, © ignore your efforts,

> >and/or (d) make things worse....

> >

> >I'm not fishing for gratitude. I know she has troubles and I

> >can't expect her to ... I don't even know what to say here, as

> >our reality as the children of BPDs is so skewed. How do normal

> >parents who are depressed and troubled and ill treat their

> >children? Do they let their children help them? Do they scream

> >and curse at their children? Do they tell their children in

> >every conversation that they want to kill themselves?

> >

> >How can I be angry at someone who's in terrible shape? Someone

> >with a terrible life?

> >

> >Husband says BPD Mom gave herself that terrible life by making

> >terrible choices that impacted her health bigtime. Having BPD,

> >she would never understand that, and although it has been

> >explained to her -- while she was making those choices -- she

> >just kept at it, because BPDs never learn from their

> >experiences and act like three-year-olds (without the joy).

> >

> >I am about to make yet another doctor's appointment for her,

> >but I cannot force her to go, short of flying 500 miles and

> >shoving her into a taxi (I don't drive either). And you know

> >... other adults would do that for their parents. They would

> >say, " I love Dad or Mom so much that I'll get him or her the

> >best care possible by any means necessary. " Why don't I say

> >that? Why am I not that person? Hmmm....

> >

> >But I'm so conflicted. I try and she rejects my help. Again.

> >Again. Nothing will change her. Seeing the doctor will only get

> >us a diagnosis, which will allow me to make some decisions

> >regarding her future care (so it's out of her hands -- oh just

> >what I love, additional responsibility over the life of a mean

> >nasty paranoid BPD).

> >

> >Sorry to ramble here. Just got off the phone after a very

> >conflicting long-distance conversation.

>

> --

> Katrina

>

[Guest guest]

You make a great point that there are people who specialize in dealing with

elderly dementia. For the first time, our BPD parent enters a zone of mental

illness that is socially recognized that has some precedents for how it should

be dealt with. I hope that will help us all out, hope it will help me as I

think the time is coming soon for my own nada as well.

Much sympathies to you JusticeCamp, it is a brutally hard problem. Please don't

hold yourself up to the ideal of " that person " because society's image is based

on an ideal that has nothing to do with the reality.

> >My BPD mother (yes, maybe someday I will call her nada, but

> >five years of Spanish taught me that nada means nothing and she

> >is not nothing even as a mother but yes, she did nearly ruin my

> >life so let's not get stuck on semantics) is a mean nasty

> >miserable person. Right now she is old and disabled and clearly

> >in the early to middle stages of dementia, hallucinating and

> >nodding off all the time. But she refuses to see a doctor about

> >this. She cancels the appointments I make for her, and she

> >rages at me " How dare you make appointments for me? " ... Then

> >she goes back to telling me how sad and scared and miserable

> >and suicidal she feels. Begging for help, then refusing all

> >help. So I feel useless and cruel and paralyzed and angry.

> >Nobody wants to go to their doctors and get tested for dementia

> >-- no one. So can I blame her for being so upset about this?

> >No? Yes? I don't even know. It's just the same old BPD thing

> >where she's the most negative unhappy person on earth and her

> >unhappiness controls everything and everyone's life.

> >

> >Does she have legitimate reasons to be unhappy? Yes. Old.

> >Disabled. Widowed. Can't drive anymore. Getting demented. No

> >relatives (who haven't gone NC) except me.

> >

> >Does she have legitimate reasons not to be unhappy? Who knows.

> >Alive. Has at least one person on earth who cares about her.

> >Has her own home to live in. Has a paid helper who helps. Not

> >in pain.

> >

> >Society would say, " FORCE her to see her doctor asap. TAKE her

> >to the doctor yourSELF. " ... Ah, but society doesn't have a BPD

> >parent.

> >

> >Is it a BPD thing, this dynamic where they make it impossible

> >to help them, then make you feel terrible for being unable to

> >help them? Where they're crying and screaming all the time, sad

> >and furious, but when you try to help they either (a) undo your

> >efforts, ( criticize your efforts, © ignore your efforts,

> >and/or (d) make things worse....

> >

> >I'm not fishing for gratitude. I know she has troubles and I

> >can't expect her to ... I don't even know what to say here, as

> >our reality as the children of BPDs is so skewed. How do normal

> >parents who are depressed and troubled and ill treat their

> >children? Do they let their children help them? Do they scream

> >and curse at their children? Do they tell their children in

> >every conversation that they want to kill themselves?

> >

> >How can I be angry at someone who's in terrible shape? Someone

> >with a terrible life?

> >

> >Husband says BPD Mom gave herself that terrible life by making

> >terrible choices that impacted her health bigtime. Having BPD,

> >she would never understand that, and although it has been

> >explained to her -- while she was making those choices -- she

> >just kept at it, because BPDs never learn from their

> >experiences and act like three-year-olds (without the joy).

> >

> >I am about to make yet another doctor's appointment for her,

> >but I cannot force her to go, short of flying 500 miles and

> >shoving her into a taxi (I don't drive either). And you know

> >... other adults would do that for their parents. They would

> >say, " I love Dad or Mom so much that I'll get him or her the

> >best care possible by any means necessary. " Why don't I say

> >that? Why am I not that person? Hmmm....

> >

> >But I'm so conflicted. I try and she rejects my help. Again.

> >Again. Nothing will change her. Seeing the doctor will only get

> >us a diagnosis, which will allow me to make some decisions

> >regarding her future care (so it's out of her hands -- oh just

> >what I love, additional responsibility over the life of a mean

> >nasty paranoid BPD).

> >

> >Sorry to ramble here. Just got off the phone after a very

> >conflicting long-distance conversation.

>

> --

> Katrina

>

[Guest guest]

We are under no rules of operation here. Our BP mothers are just that.

For those who choose to catagorize it as a Nada, ( not a mother) that is

how it helps them deal. For those who do not, you don t owe anyone an

explanation or apology.

We , all of us, have or had, a parent who was or is, a BPD. That is our

reality.

I read in some of the BP literature in the past, the phrase, I hate

you, Don t leave me. I believe that may have been a title. But it sums

up nicely what you are describing with your mom. She is desperately

afraid of you leaving or ceasing to deal with her problems, but she is

not about to co operate with you.

Aside from the degree to which BP is involved in it, dementia causes

people to make unreasonable demands and decisions. When my aunt was

suffering Alzhiemers, after a lifetime of other mental issues, she was

angry, manipulative, and hateful toward those who loved her best and

tried to help.

This sometimes requires a person who is competent taking over the

affairs of the one who is not, and making decisions they dont like. They

will not love you for it , or thank you for it.

Your choices, as I see them , are 3.

1. Stay as it is, letting a person with a mind unbalances in several

ways, make the decisions, based on irrational thought processes, and

stay and take the abuse and pain she dishes out to you.

2. Determine that she is going to make her own decisions, but that

those are so hurtful to you that you are not willing to be around and be

hurt by her words or actions.

3. Take charge, formally, legally, obtaining a court ruling that she is

not competent to manage her affairs or make her medical decision, and

having yourself named her legal guardian.

None of these are pleasant choices. But they are the essence of what

you may do with the situation you are dealing with.

By the way, I ll mention in passing, that in my Mom s final few years of

life, I was the only family member who was not NC with her, either by

her choice, or by theirs. So I understand the pressures you are

feeling. It is horrible that we find ourselves there.

Can you blame her for not wanting to go to the Dr and be tested for a

condition that is making her life, and yours, and the whole relationship

entenable, and miserable. Well, I would not use the word blame, but I

would hold her accountable for it.

By the way, the situation is cruel, and it requires some hard decisions

and hard outcomes. Making those hard , cruel decisions does NOT make

you a cruel person. No more so than the Dr who amputates the gangrenous

leg of a child is cruel. In both cases, the responsible person did the

best they could to minimize the bad outcome of a bad situation.

Taking legal control of a senile parent is unpleasant at best. Add to

it the decades of FOG from a BP and it is even worse.

And the dementia may not be a normal aging senility, it may be something

more sinister, or it may be a result of decades of the thought patterns

of a BP. In any case, a Dr should examine her to determine why.

You can discuss it with a Dr, letting him know she refuses her appts,

and is delusional, and get advice there. Depending on where you live,

there are ways to force the issue. If necessary, she can be forcibly

taken to hospital for evaluation. You may find a Dr thru some home

health agency that will examine her at home. In my state, if 2 Dr s

agree, they can certify to a court that she is not competent and the

court can rule to place a guardian in charge.

A few more comments and observations below, alongside some of your post:

>

> Society would say, " FORCE her to see her doctor asap. TAKE her to the

doctor yourSELF. " ... Ah, but society doesn't have a BPD parent.

Never mind what society says. What your fellow KO s will tell you is

this. Your first responsibility is to yourself. Do what you must for

your own physical and mental health, and what your conscience permits

you to do. Nothing in the deal of being born says you have to stand and

take it as you have been, and continue even when she refuses to do

anything to help. Again, as I laid out above, you can force the

situation, or you can leave it in her hands. But you also have a perfect

right to say, fine, do it your way. But don t call me.

> Is it a BPD thing, this dynamic where they make it impossible to help

them, then make you feel terrible for being unable to help them? Where

they're crying and screaming all the time, sad and furious, but when you

try to help they either (a) undo your efforts, ( criticize your

efforts, © ignore your efforts, and/or (d) make things worse....

Can I get a witness? Can I get an AMEN? And let all the Children say

ABSOLUTELY!!!! It is very much a BP trait, one with which many of us,

yours truly included, have suffered. That is part of the whole I

hate you, don t leave me, dynamic of BP. You cannot change it. At her

age, getting her to change is hard, if not impossible. But you can make

choices about what you will endure. She may have a mental illness. One

can debate whether or not she is capable of making good choices to heal.

But nothing obligates you to be the victim of her pd. IMHO, if someone

has a mental illness, or PD, we can offer them help. If they refuse,

and we are not able , legally , to force it, as is often the case, then

neither are we under an obligation to stay and endure it. If society,

the courts, or whoever judges them competent enough to make their own

life choices, in spite of the fact that their BPD causes those choices

to be horrible, and the outcomes terrible, the by those same judgements,

we, their children, are free, legally, morally, and ethically to

separate ourselves from those choices and do what is right for us.

>

> I'm not fishing for gratitude. I know she has troubles and I can't

expect her to ... I don't even know what to say here, as our reality as

the children of BPDs is so skewed.

Understanding reality is difficult for KOs. The fact that you recognize

that is a step toward healing.

Wow, bunch of questions. Ok, here goes...

How do normal parents who are depressed and troubled and ill treat their

children?

Depression effects lots of people. Me included. It makes us unhappy,

and grouchy, and uncaring about our lives. It affects our children and

those around us.

Do they let their children help them?

Sometimes, sometimes not.

Do they scream and curse at their children?

They may have emotional reactions, and be angry with them. If they are

unkind, they apologize and ask forgiveness. BP s rarely do so. And

what we have trouble realizing, is that what normal folks who are angry

or depressed do , by way of yelling or cursing, and the hideous screams

and vile cursing that our BP parents subjected us to, are 2 very

different things indeed. Short answer, no , most kids whose parents are

not BPD do not experience what we do in this regard.

Do they tell their children in every conversation that they want to

kill themselves?

Absolutely not. And BP s who do this need to be called on it. If your

mom is telling you that on a regular basis, you can talk to a Dr or

health care provider, and they can force a 24 hr committment for

observation and evaluation. My mom used the suicidal ideations to

manipulate me for decades. One day she did one in the presense of her

Dr. He forced her to go into a psych hospital for evaluation, no matter

how she tried to back pedal. She was angry but she never pulled that

crap on me or anyone again till the day she died.

How can I be angry at someone who's in terrible shape?

Because she hurts you deeply and has twisted and damaged your life. You

may have some compassion and understanding that there is an illness

involved, but you are still going to be angry at the abuse you have

suffered. And all of us are angry at our perception that there IS help

available, but they fight any attempt to help, and seem to choose to

stay sick.

Without taking up again the debate of CAN a BP choose to get better, (

IMHO , Hell yes. They can, but it is very hard, and so they don t. Not

can t, don t. They prefer us to suffer whatever we do, than to suffer

whatever pain their own therapy would cause them. ) the fact remains

that unless they do so choose, we are the punching bag for a lifetime of

their bad choices. Hell yes we are angry.

Someone with a terrible life?

>

> Husband says BPD Mom gave herself that terrible life by making

terrible choices that impacted her health bigtime. Having BPD, she would

never understand that, and although it has been explained to her --

while she was making those choices -- she just kept at it, because BPDs

never learn from their experiences and act like three-year-olds (without

the joy).

Spot on. He is exactly right. I differ slightly, in that it is not she

doesnt understand her bad choices cause bad results, it is that she will

never accept any blame. She will deflect the blame for every thing

negative in her life to someone else.

EG. My mom spends 500 a month on long distance phone calls to guys in

prison. As a result, she is in constant financial trouble. So is it

her fault? No, the church should pay for it because it is a ministry.

God wants her to do it, and no one should criticize her because she is

doing God s work. Her damned landlord is just a moneygrubbing sob and

all he thinks about is his money. And so on, ad nauseum .

>

> I am about to make yet another doctor's appointment for her, but I

cannot force her to go, short of flying 500 miles and shoving her into a

taxi (I don't drive either). And you know ... other adults would do that

for their parents. They would say, " I love Dad or Mom so much that I'll

get him or her the best care possible by any means necessary. " Why don't

I say that? Why am I not that person? Hmmm....

You are wrong. The FOG is making you make unrealistic demands on

yourself. No, most children would not drive 500 miles and shove mom in

a taxi. Especially when she cancels or blows off the appointments.

You know what they call it when you do the same thing over and over, and

expect a different result? Insanity. Ours is a form of insanity,

caused by our BP parent.

Why do you assume you know what kids in normal situations would do? No

one would fly 500 miles to get a parent who refuses to go to the Dr to

fight them about getting in a taxi. And she would you know. You being

there would not change her willingness to go see the Dr. Unless you are

prepared to have her declared legally incompetent, and force her, if

necessary by having a deputy sheriff forcibly put her in a car, you

cannot force an adult to do something, even in their best interest. My

mom chose for some time to sleep in her car because her home was so

filthy from the hoarding she could not get in the door. And short of

those steps, which in that situation, they would not accept as

justification for the ruling, I could not change it.

The FOG of a BP mom has you saying " I m supposed to say ( guilt) I love

Mom so much that ( obligation) I ll get her the best care by any means

necessary, ( fear...that she will suffer, or be neglected , or die. )

The reality is, mom is refusing any help, making another in a lifetime

of bad choices, and expecting me to be responsible for the results.

> But I'm so conflicted. I try and she rejects my help. Again. Again.

Nothing will change her.

Yes, you are right. She will. Again and again and again.

So, tell me again why you are going to make another appointment that she

won t keep? She can dial a phone. If she wants to go to the Dr, let her

make the appointment and be responsible to get there. If she needs

your help, let her ask for it.

Seeing the doctor will only get us a diagnosis, which will allow me to

make some decisions regarding her future care (so it's out of her hands

-- oh just what I love, additional responsibility over the life of a

mean nasty paranoid BPD).

I tell you again, and others on here will chime in and second what I m

saying, it is difficult in the extreme to get a BP, no matter how bad

the choices they make, declared incompetent and take charge of thier

affairs. Even if you have that legal authority, she s 500 miles away.

She wont do what you say unless you forcibly make it happen. If you

truly want to do that, then you need to speak to an attorney, not a Dr.

Besides, they can often turn the crazy off and on, and may fool a Dr

once or twice.

If she can t keep a caregiver because of her behaviors, and you have no

control over that, then put it back on her plate. Mom, I don t know

what to tell you. If you keep being mean to them, they ll keep quitting.

Mom, xyz seem to be happening, and you need to see a Dr. You wont, well

ok, then xyz are your responsiblity.

I m sorry to tell you that you need to treat your elderly, disabled

mother like a spoiled 3 year old. But that is our reality.

She will not change. She will continue to suck you dry emotionally,

financially, physically. You feel obligated to let her, because you are

a KO, and have a lifetime of being conditioned by a BP parent.

But you are NOT obligated. You can expect, and demand , reasonable

behavior, even from Mom. This comes as a shock to KO s when they first

realize it, but it is true. Really.

>

[Guest guest]

Awesome advice, Doug. Really really awesome.

And yes, " I hate you don't leave me " is a book about BPD. I looked for it

at the library today, no luck. I'll have to see if I can get it used on

Amazon or something.

I also like the idea of taking charge of her mother legally. It might be

time for that, sadly.

Mia

>

>

> We are under no rules of operation here. Our BP mothers are just that.

> For those who choose to catagorize it as a Nada, ( not a mother) that is

> how it helps them deal. For those who do not, you don t owe anyone an

> explanation or apology.

>

> We , all of us, have or had, a parent who was or is, a BPD. That is our

> reality.

>

> I read in some of the BP literature in the past, the phrase, I hate

> you, Don t leave me. I believe that may have been a title. But it sums

> up nicely what you are describing with your mom. She is desperately

> afraid of you leaving or ceasing to deal with her problems, but she is

> not about to co operate with you.

>

> Aside from the degree to which BP is involved in it, dementia causes

> people to make unreasonable demands and decisions. When my aunt was

> suffering Alzhiemers, after a lifetime of other mental issues, she was

> angry, manipulative, and hateful toward those who loved her best and

> tried to help.

>

> This sometimes requires a person who is competent taking over the

> affairs of the one who is not, and making decisions they dont like. They

> will not love you for it , or thank you for it.

>

> Your choices, as I see them , are 3.

>

> 1. Stay as it is, letting a person with a mind unbalances in several

> ways, make the decisions, based on irrational thought processes, and

> stay and take the abuse and pain she dishes out to you.

>

> 2. Determine that she is going to make her own decisions, but that

> those are so hurtful to you that you are not willing to be around and be

> hurt by her words or actions.

>

> 3. Take charge, formally, legally, obtaining a court ruling that she is

> not competent to manage her affairs or make her medical decision, and

> having yourself named her legal guardian.

>

> None of these are pleasant choices. But they are the essence of what

> you may do with the situation you are dealing with.

>

> By the way, I ll mention in passing, that in my Mom s final few years of

> life, I was the only family member who was not NC with her, either by

> her choice, or by theirs. So I understand the pressures you are

> feeling. It is horrible that we find ourselves there.

>

> Can you blame her for not wanting to go to the Dr and be tested for a

> condition that is making her life, and yours, and the whole relationship

> entenable, and miserable. Well, I would not use the word blame, but I

> would hold her accountable for it.

>

> By the way, the situation is cruel, and it requires some hard decisions

> and hard outcomes. Making those hard , cruel decisions does NOT make

> you a cruel person. No more so than the Dr who amputates the gangrenous

> leg of a child is cruel. In both cases, the responsible person did the

> best they could to minimize the bad outcome of a bad situation.

>

> Taking legal control of a senile parent is unpleasant at best. Add to

> it the decades of FOG from a BP and it is even worse.

>

> And the dementia may not be a normal aging senility, it may be something

> more sinister, or it may be a result of decades of the thought patterns

> of a BP. In any case, a Dr should examine her to determine why.

>

> You can discuss it with a Dr, letting him know she refuses her appts,

> and is delusional, and get advice there. Depending on where you live,

> there are ways to force the issue. If necessary, she can be forcibly

> taken to hospital for evaluation. You may find a Dr thru some home

> health agency that will examine her at home. In my state, if 2 Dr s

> agree, they can certify to a court that she is not competent and the

> court can rule to place a guardian in charge.

>

> A few more comments and observations below, alongside some of your post:

>

[Guest guest]

Awesome advice, Doug. Really really awesome.

And yes, " I hate you don't leave me " is a book about BPD. I looked for it

at the library today, no luck. I'll have to see if I can get it used on

Amazon or something.

I also like the idea of taking charge of her mother legally. It might be

time for that, sadly.

Mia

>

>

> We are under no rules of operation here. Our BP mothers are just that.

> For those who choose to catagorize it as a Nada, ( not a mother) that is

> how it helps them deal. For those who do not, you don t owe anyone an

> explanation or apology.

>

> We , all of us, have or had, a parent who was or is, a BPD. That is our

> reality.

>

> I read in some of the BP literature in the past, the phrase, I hate

> you, Don t leave me. I believe that may have been a title. But it sums

> up nicely what you are describing with your mom. She is desperately

> afraid of you leaving or ceasing to deal with her problems, but she is

> not about to co operate with you.

>

> Aside from the degree to which BP is involved in it, dementia causes

> people to make unreasonable demands and decisions. When my aunt was

> suffering Alzhiemers, after a lifetime of other mental issues, she was

> angry, manipulative, and hateful toward those who loved her best and

> tried to help.

>

> This sometimes requires a person who is competent taking over the

> affairs of the one who is not, and making decisions they dont like. They

> will not love you for it , or thank you for it.

>

> Your choices, as I see them , are 3.

>

> 1. Stay as it is, letting a person with a mind unbalances in several

> ways, make the decisions, based on irrational thought processes, and

> stay and take the abuse and pain she dishes out to you.

>

> 2. Determine that she is going to make her own decisions, but that

> those are so hurtful to you that you are not willing to be around and be

> hurt by her words or actions.

>

> 3. Take charge, formally, legally, obtaining a court ruling that she is

> not competent to manage her affairs or make her medical decision, and

> having yourself named her legal guardian.

>

> None of these are pleasant choices. But they are the essence of what

> you may do with the situation you are dealing with.

>

> By the way, I ll mention in passing, that in my Mom s final few years of

> life, I was the only family member who was not NC with her, either by

> her choice, or by theirs. So I understand the pressures you are

> feeling. It is horrible that we find ourselves there.

>

> Can you blame her for not wanting to go to the Dr and be tested for a

> condition that is making her life, and yours, and the whole relationship

> entenable, and miserable. Well, I would not use the word blame, but I

> would hold her accountable for it.

>

> By the way, the situation is cruel, and it requires some hard decisions

> and hard outcomes. Making those hard , cruel decisions does NOT make

> you a cruel person. No more so than the Dr who amputates the gangrenous

> leg of a child is cruel. In both cases, the responsible person did the

> best they could to minimize the bad outcome of a bad situation.

>

> Taking legal control of a senile parent is unpleasant at best. Add to

> it the decades of FOG from a BP and it is even worse.

>

> And the dementia may not be a normal aging senility, it may be something

> more sinister, or it may be a result of decades of the thought patterns

> of a BP. In any case, a Dr should examine her to determine why.

>

> You can discuss it with a Dr, letting him know she refuses her appts,

> and is delusional, and get advice there. Depending on where you live,

> there are ways to force the issue. If necessary, she can be forcibly

> taken to hospital for evaluation. You may find a Dr thru some home

> health agency that will examine her at home. In my state, if 2 Dr s

> agree, they can certify to a court that she is not competent and the

> court can rule to place a guardian in charge.

>

> A few more comments and observations below, alongside some of your post:

>

[Guest guest]

One note about " I hate you don't leave me, " it's slightly outdated (sorry if

it's been mentioned already). I read that book and it has really good

information in there, but it's based on DSM-III, and we're nearly to DSM-V

already.

Okay, turning off my librarian self for now

>

>

> Awesome advice, Doug. Really really awesome.

>

> And yes, " I hate you don't leave me " is a book about BPD. I looked for it

> at the library today, no luck. I'll have to see if I can get it used on

> Amazon or something.

>

> I also like the idea of taking charge of her mother legally. It might be

> time for that, sadly.

>

> Mia

>

> On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 5:03 PM, <doug883@... <doug883%40yahoo.com>>

> wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > We are under no rules of operation here. Our BP mothers are just that.

> > For those who choose to catagorize it as a Nada, ( not a mother) that is

> > how it helps them deal. For those who do not, you don t owe anyone an

> > explanation or apology.

> >

> > We , all of us, have or had, a parent who was or is, a BPD. That is our

> > reality.

> >

> > I read in some of the BP literature in the past, the phrase, I hate

> > you, Don t leave me. I believe that may have been a title. But it sums

> > up nicely what you are describing with your mom. She is desperately

> > afraid of you leaving or ceasing to deal with her problems, but she is

> > not about to co operate with you.

> >

> > Aside from the degree to which BP is involved in it, dementia causes

> > people to make unreasonable demands and decisions. When my aunt was

> > suffering Alzhiemers, after a lifetime of other mental issues, she was

> > angry, manipulative, and hateful toward those who loved her best and

> > tried to help.

> >

> > This sometimes requires a person who is competent taking over the

> > affairs of the one who is not, and making decisions they dont like. They

> > will not love you for it , or thank you for it.

> >

> > Your choices, as I see them , are 3.

> >

> > 1. Stay as it is, letting a person with a mind unbalances in several

> > ways, make the decisions, based on irrational thought processes, and

> > stay and take the abuse and pain she dishes out to you.

> >

> > 2. Determine that she is going to make her own decisions, but that

> > those are so hurtful to you that you are not willing to be around and be

> > hurt by her words or actions.

> >

> > 3. Take charge, formally, legally, obtaining a court ruling that she is

> > not competent to manage her affairs or make her medical decision, and

> > having yourself named her legal guardian.

> >

> > None of these are pleasant choices. But they are the essence of what

> > you may do with the situation you are dealing with.

> >

> > By the way, I ll mention in passing, that in my Mom s final few years of

> > life, I was the only family member who was not NC with her, either by

> > her choice, or by theirs. So I understand the pressures you are

> > feeling. It is horrible that we find ourselves there.

> >

> > Can you blame her for not wanting to go to the Dr and be tested for a

> > condition that is making her life, and yours, and the whole relationship

> > entenable, and miserable. Well, I would not use the word blame, but I

> > would hold her accountable for it.

> >

> > By the way, the situation is cruel, and it requires some hard decisions

> > and hard outcomes. Making those hard , cruel decisions does NOT make

> > you a cruel person. No more so than the Dr who amputates the gangrenous

> > leg of a child is cruel. In both cases, the responsible person did the

> > best they could to minimize the bad outcome of a bad situation.

> >

> > Taking legal control of a senile parent is unpleasant at best. Add to

> > it the decades of FOG from a BP and it is even worse.

> >

> > And the dementia may not be a normal aging senility, it may be something

> > more sinister, or it may be a result of decades of the thought patterns

> > of a BP. In any case, a Dr should examine her to determine why.

> >

> > You can discuss it with a Dr, letting him know she refuses her appts,

> > and is delusional, and get advice there. Depending on where you live,

> > there are ways to force the issue. If necessary, she can be forcibly

> > taken to hospital for evaluation. You may find a Dr thru some home

> > health agency that will examine her at home. In my state, if 2 Dr s

> > agree, they can certify to a court that she is not competent and the

> > court can rule to place a guardian in charge.

> >

> > A few more comments and observations below, alongside some of your post:

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

One note about " I hate you don't leave me, " it's slightly outdated (sorry if

it's been mentioned already). I read that book and it has really good

information in there, but it's based on DSM-III, and we're nearly to DSM-V

already.

Okay, turning off my librarian self for now

>

>

> Awesome advice, Doug. Really really awesome.

>

> And yes, " I hate you don't leave me " is a book about BPD. I looked for it

> at the library today, no luck. I'll have to see if I can get it used on

> Amazon or something.

>

> I also like the idea of taking charge of her mother legally. It might be

> time for that, sadly.

>

> Mia

>

> On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 5:03 PM, <doug883@... <doug883%40yahoo.com>>

> wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > We are under no rules of operation here. Our BP mothers are just that.

> > For those who choose to catagorize it as a Nada, ( not a mother) that is

> > how it helps them deal. For those who do not, you don t owe anyone an

> > explanation or apology.

> >

> > We , all of us, have or had, a parent who was or is, a BPD. That is our

> > reality.

> >

> > I read in some of the BP literature in the past, the phrase, I hate

> > you, Don t leave me. I believe that may have been a title. But it sums

> > up nicely what you are describing with your mom. She is desperately

> > afraid of you leaving or ceasing to deal with her problems, but she is

> > not about to co operate with you.

> >

> > Aside from the degree to which BP is involved in it, dementia causes

> > people to make unreasonable demands and decisions. When my aunt was

> > suffering Alzhiemers, after a lifetime of other mental issues, she was

> > angry, manipulative, and hateful toward those who loved her best and

> > tried to help.

> >

> > This sometimes requires a person who is competent taking over the

> > affairs of the one who is not, and making decisions they dont like. They

> > will not love you for it , or thank you for it.

> >

> > Your choices, as I see them , are 3.

> >

> > 1. Stay as it is, letting a person with a mind unbalances in several

> > ways, make the decisions, based on irrational thought processes, and

> > stay and take the abuse and pain she dishes out to you.

> >

> > 2. Determine that she is going to make her own decisions, but that

> > those are so hurtful to you that you are not willing to be around and be

> > hurt by her words or actions.

> >

> > 3. Take charge, formally, legally, obtaining a court ruling that she is

> > not competent to manage her affairs or make her medical decision, and

> > having yourself named her legal guardian.

> >

> > None of these are pleasant choices. But they are the essence of what

> > you may do with the situation you are dealing with.

> >

> > By the way, I ll mention in passing, that in my Mom s final few years of

> > life, I was the only family member who was not NC with her, either by

> > her choice, or by theirs. So I understand the pressures you are

> > feeling. It is horrible that we find ourselves there.

> >

> > Can you blame her for not wanting to go to the Dr and be tested for a

> > condition that is making her life, and yours, and the whole relationship

> > entenable, and miserable. Well, I would not use the word blame, but I

> > would hold her accountable for it.

> >

> > By the way, the situation is cruel, and it requires some hard decisions

> > and hard outcomes. Making those hard , cruel decisions does NOT make

> > you a cruel person. No more so than the Dr who amputates the gangrenous

> > leg of a child is cruel. In both cases, the responsible person did the

> > best they could to minimize the bad outcome of a bad situation.

> >

> > Taking legal control of a senile parent is unpleasant at best. Add to

> > it the decades of FOG from a BP and it is even worse.

> >

> > And the dementia may not be a normal aging senility, it may be something

> > more sinister, or it may be a result of decades of the thought patterns

> > of a BP. In any case, a Dr should examine her to determine why.

> >

> > You can discuss it with a Dr, letting him know she refuses her appts,

> > and is delusional, and get advice there. Depending on where you live,

> > there are ways to force the issue. If necessary, she can be forcibly

> > taken to hospital for evaluation. You may find a Dr thru some home

> > health agency that will examine her at home. In my state, if 2 Dr s

> > agree, they can certify to a court that she is not competent and the

> > court can rule to place a guardian in charge.

> >

> > A few more comments and observations below, alongside some of your post:

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

FYI, I hate you don't leave me is available through Kindle apps. I downloaded it

and read it on the flight home after the episode with my mother (on my phone).

You can download it to your computer and read it too.

>

> >

> >

> > We are under no rules of operation here. Our BP mothers are just that.

> > For those who choose to catagorize it as a Nada, ( not a mother) that is

> > how it helps them deal. For those who do not, you don t owe anyone an

> > explanation or apology.

> >

> > We , all of us, have or had, a parent who was or is, a BPD. That is our

> > reality.

> >

> > I read in some of the BP literature in the past, the phrase, I hate

> > you, Don t leave me. I believe that may have been a title. But it sums

> > up nicely what you are describing with your mom. She is desperately

> > afraid of you leaving or ceasing to deal with her problems, but she is

> > not about to co operate with you.

> >

> > Aside from the degree to which BP is involved in it, dementia causes

> > people to make unreasonable demands and decisions. When my aunt was

> > suffering Alzhiemers, after a lifetime of other mental issues, she was

> > angry, manipulative, and hateful toward those who loved her best and

> > tried to help.

> >

> > This sometimes requires a person who is competent taking over the

> > affairs of the one who is not, and making decisions they dont like. They

> > will not love you for it , or thank you for it.

> >

> > Your choices, as I see them , are 3.

> >

> > 1. Stay as it is, letting a person with a mind unbalances in several

> > ways, make the decisions, based on irrational thought processes, and

> > stay and take the abuse and pain she dishes out to you.

> >

> > 2. Determine that she is going to make her own decisions, but that

> > those are so hurtful to you that you are not willing to be around and be

> > hurt by her words or actions.

> >

> > 3. Take charge, formally, legally, obtaining a court ruling that she is

> > not competent to manage her affairs or make her medical decision, and

> > having yourself named her legal guardian.

> >

> > None of these are pleasant choices. But they are the essence of what

> > you may do with the situation you are dealing with.

> >

> > By the way, I ll mention in passing, that in my Mom s final few years of

> > life, I was the only family member who was not NC with her, either by

> > her choice, or by theirs. So I understand the pressures you are

> > feeling. It is horrible that we find ourselves there.

> >

> > Can you blame her for not wanting to go to the Dr and be tested for a

> > condition that is making her life, and yours, and the whole relationship

> > entenable, and miserable. Well, I would not use the word blame, but I

> > would hold her accountable for it.

> >

> > By the way, the situation is cruel, and it requires some hard decisions

> > and hard outcomes. Making those hard , cruel decisions does NOT make

> > you a cruel person. No more so than the Dr who amputates the gangrenous

> > leg of a child is cruel. In both cases, the responsible person did the

> > best they could to minimize the bad outcome of a bad situation.

> >

> > Taking legal control of a senile parent is unpleasant at best. Add to

> > it the decades of FOG from a BP and it is even worse.

> >

> > And the dementia may not be a normal aging senility, it may be something

> > more sinister, or it may be a result of decades of the thought patterns

> > of a BP. In any case, a Dr should examine her to determine why.

> >

> > You can discuss it with a Dr, letting him know she refuses her appts,

> > and is delusional, and get advice there. Depending on where you live,

> > there are ways to force the issue. If necessary, she can be forcibly

> > taken to hospital for evaluation. You may find a Dr thru some home

> > health agency that will examine her at home. In my state, if 2 Dr s

> > agree, they can certify to a court that she is not competent and the

> > court can rule to place a guardian in charge.

> >

> > A few more comments and observations below, alongside some of your post:

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Everyone loves a librarian. Especially booky people like me!

The book may be obsolete, but the title is very apropos to the world of

the BP.

Doug

>

> One note about " I hate you don't leave me, " it's slightly outdated

(sorry if

> it's been mentioned already). I read that book and it has really good

> information in there, but it's based on DSM-III, and we're nearly to

DSM-V

> already.

>

> Okay, turning off my librarian self for now

>

[Guest guest]

Wow -- thank you so much, everyone. I'm so grateful for all of you....