Re: BPD's can control their behavior?

[Guest guest]

Yes, it sounds like your fada has several traits of pd, including embracing the

" professional victim " position: never taking personal responsibility for his own

actions or accepting the consequences those actions generate. Blame is always

assigned outside the pd individual, nothing is ever his fault. Its " just the

way I am so deal with it. "

Maybe its possible that on some level a person with bpd (or other personality

disorder) does have an inkling that there might be something wrong with them and

that their problems are not always, ALWAYS someone else's fault, but if they do

have an inkling they appear to push that unpleasant speculation away, bury it

deep, and instead cling tenaciously to denial.

This is what my nada shrieked on one memorable occasion about 18 months ago,

directed at Sister. Nada had been going to therapy for about 6 months and

seemed to be stabilizing, gaining personal insight and some improved control of

her acting-out behaviors... but this is what she was apparently actually

thinking: (imagine it in all caps)

" There's nothing wrong with me! I've only been going to that therapist because

you forced me to! I have always been a perfect mother to you two! Its you who

are the crazy, hateful, mean ones! Its you who are the liars! There's nothing

wrong with me..!! "

I agree with you, I think we are just on the very threshold of understanding the

brain and how it works, and what is going on when it doesn't work right. I

think why and how and all that will be figured out eventually, if we don't blow

ourselves up first.

-Annie

>

> Annie, my fada is always a victim, too. So much so that I have coined the

term: " professional victim " however he also has a standard reply for every

request for him to try to cooperate more with the family. " I can't help it,

don't you know I'm different " If he knows he's different and uses that for an

excuse, or as a reason for his victim mentality then that should be the first

step in the desire to to change. My cerebral palsy kids know they're different

and they want to be as much like everyone else as possible. Granted, some of my

students with various etiologies are so low level I'm not sure they know what

different means but they respond to the lessons I prepare for them. I just have

a hard time believing that at some level these BP's know that it is their fault.

I know that some of the books say that BP's aren't manipulative but I've watched

my father manipulate his brothers and sisters into taking care of him his whole

life and now he is trying to do it to me and my family and I have a hard time

believing that he doesn't know what he's doing. He used to scream and yell at

his brothers and sisters and demand that they help him and then when they

weren't looking he'd get this sly little grin on his face. My physician calls

him an " emotional terrorist " and I'm to the point where no new caretakers are

coming into the home unless they agree to read portions of SWOE. My son who is

bi-polar has made the comment that " every new caretaker who enters the home

broadens the front on the war against emotional terrorism " because the first

thing my father does is engage them in a pity campaign so they will come and

tell me how miserable he is and imply that my family ignores him. I think we all

need to learn so much more about the brain and mental illness and mental

retardation because there is a link somewhere and if we keep urging the

researchers on we may come to a day when there are more psychotherapeutic drugs

for every one. I just know that even when my son was cycling in and out of his

manic and depressive phases and he could not control any of his emotions he said

there was a part of his brain that was aware and that he kept giving himself pep

talks so he could get better. I just think there is so much we don't know about

the brain and I've watched my Dad since I was little and I just don't believe

that he doesn't enjoy a part of this. As my husband says " he's not happy until

he has something to be miserable about "

> Thanks for letting me air my opinion.

> Kay

[Guest guest]

Annie, that description of BPD as a disorder of intimacy really resonates with

me too. My theory is that it is those who are emotionally close to the BPD who

have the most power to hurt them. Because they are so fragile with no solid

sense of self, the potential power of children and mates to hurt them is a

terrifying thing (subconscious) so consciously they try to dominate and control

those people in particular for their safety and well-being. The times I have

triggered this in my nada it was as if she was fighting for her life in

attacking me trying to " make " me fall back into line so she could be safe again.

The scary thing is how very small a perceived threat can be to her ego to set

off this response. But for those are outside/the public the BPD only fears

social disapproval or exclusion leading to more functional behavior.

I can totally relate to your description of how your nada thought you owed her

and had to love her anyway. That a parent somehow has this special right to be

automatically be forgiven anything because they didn't dump you out naked in the

street. I'm not saying that " they can't help it " but more that they are

strongly drawn to be the way they are... Kinda like the amount of willpower it

takes for an alcoholic not to drink a shot put in front of him is far greater

than for a non-alcoholic.

I don't know if you relate to this but for me there's a deep conflict between

the part of me which wants to absolve her as " just " mentally ill and the part of

me that wants to blame her for every bit of it and every consequence resulting

from it. My gut tells me the answer is inbetween...some of it could have been

helped with more effort on her part, and some not.

>

> Interesting theory; you're saying (if I understand correctly) that the

behavior of only unleashing rage at the kids and the spouse is not under the

bpd's conscious control.

>

> According to some article or other I read, bpd is a disorder of intimacy,

which means that the children of a bpd are peculiarly and most specifically

vulnerable or targeted for abuse by a bpd parent. The spouse or SO of a bpd

would also be especially vulnerable to abuse, and to a lesser degree a non-pd

parent of a child with bpd.

>

> I guess in this case it boils down to a philosophical point or a personal

interpretation.

>

> I think my nada controlled her behaviors in public because she wanted to badly

enough; she wanted above all to be seen as perfect.

>

> She let loose at Sister, dad and me in private because she could, and yet

still look perfect to the outside world.

>

> She felt entitled to unleash her rage and frustration at us in private because

we " made her " so angry and deserved it, because we " owed her " as her children to

subject ourselves to her will, we were her possessions, and she felt safe

unleashing at us because we as children did not have the option of leaving her

and we wouldn't tell. We were too afraid of her to tell. According to my nada

we " had to love her anyway. " Dad had that option to leave, but for reasons of

his own chose " til death do us part " and stayed and took the abuse.

>

> I do agree wholeheartedly that there is not just one " nada " behavior. The

breakdown of bpd behaviors into Waif (dependency), Hermit (anxiety) , Queen

(narcissistic), and Witch (antisocial) is a really good way of indicating this

variation. There is also the variation of " high-functioning " vs

" low-functioning " . And those 4 sub-categories don't take into account other

mental illnesses that might be present at the same time. I think in addition to

being a " walking Cluster B " my nada also has obsessive-compulsive personality

disorder (rigid adhering to rules and lists, perfectionism, hoarding behaviors)

and some depression as well.

>

> So, yes, I think you make some interesting and valid points.

>

> -Annie

>

>

[Guest guest]

Annie, that description of BPD as a disorder of intimacy really resonates with

me too. My theory is that it is those who are emotionally close to the BPD who

have the most power to hurt them. Because they are so fragile with no solid

sense of self, the potential power of children and mates to hurt them is a

terrifying thing (subconscious) so consciously they try to dominate and control

those people in particular for their safety and well-being. The times I have

triggered this in my nada it was as if she was fighting for her life in

attacking me trying to " make " me fall back into line so she could be safe again.

The scary thing is how very small a perceived threat can be to her ego to set

off this response. But for those are outside/the public the BPD only fears

social disapproval or exclusion leading to more functional behavior.

I can totally relate to your description of how your nada thought you owed her

and had to love her anyway. That a parent somehow has this special right to be

automatically be forgiven anything because they didn't dump you out naked in the

street. I'm not saying that " they can't help it " but more that they are

strongly drawn to be the way they are... Kinda like the amount of willpower it

takes for an alcoholic not to drink a shot put in front of him is far greater

than for a non-alcoholic.

I don't know if you relate to this but for me there's a deep conflict between

the part of me which wants to absolve her as " just " mentally ill and the part of

me that wants to blame her for every bit of it and every consequence resulting

from it. My gut tells me the answer is inbetween...some of it could have been

helped with more effort on her part, and some not.

>

> Interesting theory; you're saying (if I understand correctly) that the

behavior of only unleashing rage at the kids and the spouse is not under the

bpd's conscious control.

>

> According to some article or other I read, bpd is a disorder of intimacy,

which means that the children of a bpd are peculiarly and most specifically

vulnerable or targeted for abuse by a bpd parent. The spouse or SO of a bpd

would also be especially vulnerable to abuse, and to a lesser degree a non-pd

parent of a child with bpd.

>

> I guess in this case it boils down to a philosophical point or a personal

interpretation.

>

> I think my nada controlled her behaviors in public because she wanted to badly

enough; she wanted above all to be seen as perfect.

>

> She let loose at Sister, dad and me in private because she could, and yet

still look perfect to the outside world.

>

> She felt entitled to unleash her rage and frustration at us in private because

we " made her " so angry and deserved it, because we " owed her " as her children to

subject ourselves to her will, we were her possessions, and she felt safe

unleashing at us because we as children did not have the option of leaving her

and we wouldn't tell. We were too afraid of her to tell. According to my nada

we " had to love her anyway. " Dad had that option to leave, but for reasons of

his own chose " til death do us part " and stayed and took the abuse.

>

> I do agree wholeheartedly that there is not just one " nada " behavior. The

breakdown of bpd behaviors into Waif (dependency), Hermit (anxiety) , Queen

(narcissistic), and Witch (antisocial) is a really good way of indicating this

variation. There is also the variation of " high-functioning " vs

" low-functioning " . And those 4 sub-categories don't take into account other

mental illnesses that might be present at the same time. I think in addition to

being a " walking Cluster B " my nada also has obsessive-compulsive personality

disorder (rigid adhering to rules and lists, perfectionism, hoarding behaviors)

and some depression as well.

>

> So, yes, I think you make some interesting and valid points.

>

> -Annie

>

>

[Guest guest]

My mother was very manipulative in controlling me. I think she had to know what

she was saying and doing was wrong, but I guess the million dollar question is

whether or not she could control it. For instance, she would say things like,

" Do you want me to tell your teacher what a liar you are? " That told me, I

would be embarrassed if my teacher knew what I had done (whether it was a lie or

not) and I did not want her to know (or anyone for that matter). Do you see how

manipulative that is? So she knew if she got caught doing something, she would

be held accountable so she had to keep me quiet about it by telling me SHE would

be the one to tell and then I'd be laughed at and embarrassed and my teacher (or

whoever..a neighbor, another family member) would think I was just an idiot.

I remember I once went to a birthday party and I was very reclusive at the

party. I think sometimes my behavior was perceived as being pouty, but

apparently I was acting mad at everyone. The mom later told my mother and asked

what was wrong with me. My mother didn't let me spend the night anywhere for a

year or so because she would constantly remind me what a " retard " I was at

's house and how I had " embarrassed her " so badly.

Re: BPD's can control their behavior?

Interesting theory; you're saying (if I understand correctly) that the behavior

of only unleashing rage at the kids and the spouse is not under the bpd's

conscious control.

According to some article or other I read, bpd is a disorder of intimacy, which

means that the children of a bpd are peculiarly and most specifically vulnerable

or targeted for abuse by a bpd parent. The spouse or SO of a bpd would also be

especially vulnerable to abuse, and to a lesser degree a non-pd parent of a

child with bpd.

I guess in this case it boils down to a philosophical point or a personal

interpretation.

I think my nada controlled her behaviors in public because she wanted to badly

enough; she wanted above all to be seen as perfect.

She let loose at Sister, dad and me in private because she could, and yet still

look perfect to the outside world.

She felt entitled to unleash her rage and frustration at us in private because

we " made her " so angry and deserved it, because we " owed her " as her children to

subject ourselves to her will, we were her possessions, and she felt safe

unleashing at us because we as children did not have the option of leaving her

and we wouldn't tell. We were too afraid of her to tell. According to my nada we

" had to love her anyway. " Dad had that option to leave, but for reasons of his

own chose " til death do us part " and stayed and took the abuse.

I do agree wholeheartedly that there is not just one " nada " behavior. The

breakdown of bpd behaviors into Waif (dependency), Hermit (anxiety) , Queen

(narcissistic), and Witch (antisocial) is a really good way of indicating this

variation. There is also the variation of " high-functioning " vs

" low-functioning " . And those 4 sub-categories don't take into account other

mental illnesses that might be present at the same time. I think in addition to

being a " walking Cluster B " my nada also has obsessive-compulsive personality

disorder (rigid adhering to rules and lists, perfectionism, hoarding behaviors)

and some depression as well.

So, yes, I think you make some interesting and valid points.

-Annie

>

> Part of what complicates this question is that there are big individual

variations amongst BPD's. We often write here about " nada " often as if we all

have the same mother the similarities sometimes are so startling. But there are

differences in level of functioning, severity of the abuse, and context.

>

> This is just my opinion based on my own experience of thirty years of chronic

depression and observing the personality disorders within my own family. There

is a range in which a person's free will can act, but the range can be

determined and limited by factors outside of their control. The person's

genetics, unique brain chemistry/structure, their formative experiences all go

into determining what that free will range is.

>

> So let's say there's a nada who puts on a nice face in public and let's fly

with the FOG in private - this part seems pretty universal for most of us.

Perhaps it is in the very nature of BPD that they will do exactly that with a

vulnerable person who they have control over? And you could say well she could

exercise free will and not FOG her kid but perhaps that is the only way she

*can* relate to a dependent other because of the threat that person represents

to her. A need to control/own those who are close and appease those who are

not....a need which may have been put in place by factors the BPD never did

control.

>

> Just my musings,

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

My mother was very manipulative in controlling me. I think she had to know what

she was saying and doing was wrong, but I guess the million dollar question is

whether or not she could control it. For instance, she would say things like,

" Do you want me to tell your teacher what a liar you are? " That told me, I

would be embarrassed if my teacher knew what I had done (whether it was a lie or

not) and I did not want her to know (or anyone for that matter). Do you see how

manipulative that is? So she knew if she got caught doing something, she would

be held accountable so she had to keep me quiet about it by telling me SHE would

be the one to tell and then I'd be laughed at and embarrassed and my teacher (or

whoever..a neighbor, another family member) would think I was just an idiot.

I remember I once went to a birthday party and I was very reclusive at the

party. I think sometimes my behavior was perceived as being pouty, but

apparently I was acting mad at everyone. The mom later told my mother and asked

what was wrong with me. My mother didn't let me spend the night anywhere for a

year or so because she would constantly remind me what a " retard " I was at

's house and how I had " embarrassed her " so badly.

Re: BPD's can control their behavior?

Interesting theory; you're saying (if I understand correctly) that the behavior

of only unleashing rage at the kids and the spouse is not under the bpd's

conscious control.

According to some article or other I read, bpd is a disorder of intimacy, which

means that the children of a bpd are peculiarly and most specifically vulnerable

or targeted for abuse by a bpd parent. The spouse or SO of a bpd would also be

especially vulnerable to abuse, and to a lesser degree a non-pd parent of a

child with bpd.

I guess in this case it boils down to a philosophical point or a personal

interpretation.

I think my nada controlled her behaviors in public because she wanted to badly

enough; she wanted above all to be seen as perfect.

She let loose at Sister, dad and me in private because she could, and yet still

look perfect to the outside world.

She felt entitled to unleash her rage and frustration at us in private because

we " made her " so angry and deserved it, because we " owed her " as her children to

subject ourselves to her will, we were her possessions, and she felt safe

unleashing at us because we as children did not have the option of leaving her

and we wouldn't tell. We were too afraid of her to tell. According to my nada we

" had to love her anyway. " Dad had that option to leave, but for reasons of his

own chose " til death do us part " and stayed and took the abuse.

I do agree wholeheartedly that there is not just one " nada " behavior. The

breakdown of bpd behaviors into Waif (dependency), Hermit (anxiety) , Queen

(narcissistic), and Witch (antisocial) is a really good way of indicating this

variation. There is also the variation of " high-functioning " vs

" low-functioning " . And those 4 sub-categories don't take into account other

mental illnesses that might be present at the same time. I think in addition to

being a " walking Cluster B " my nada also has obsessive-compulsive personality

disorder (rigid adhering to rules and lists, perfectionism, hoarding behaviors)

and some depression as well.

So, yes, I think you make some interesting and valid points.

-Annie

>

> Part of what complicates this question is that there are big individual

variations amongst BPD's. We often write here about " nada " often as if we all

have the same mother the similarities sometimes are so startling. But there are

differences in level of functioning, severity of the abuse, and context.

>

> This is just my opinion based on my own experience of thirty years of chronic

depression and observing the personality disorders within my own family. There

is a range in which a person's free will can act, but the range can be

determined and limited by factors outside of their control. The person's

genetics, unique brain chemistry/structure, their formative experiences all go

into determining what that free will range is.

>

> So let's say there's a nada who puts on a nice face in public and let's fly

with the FOG in private - this part seems pretty universal for most of us.

Perhaps it is in the very nature of BPD that they will do exactly that with a

vulnerable person who they have control over? And you could say well she could

exercise free will and not FOG her kid but perhaps that is the only way she

*can* relate to a dependent other because of the threat that person represents

to her. A need to control/own those who are close and appease those who are

not....a need which may have been put in place by factors the BPD never did

control.

>

> Just my musings,

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think some aspects of personality disorder are not under the individual's

conscious control, and that's the cognitive distortion, the emotional

dysregulation, and the transient breaks with reality.

But I think that on a moment-by-moment basis we as human beings do have control

over how we react to things, whatever the emotional context.

At any moment when my nada was building up a rage or even was suddenly triggered

into a rage she could have chosen to go walk outside and calm down, hit a

pillow, anything, but she never did. It was more important to her to dump her

rage on her helpless, terrified, screaming little children and " relieve "

herself. She even knew that doing that to us was wrong, because half the time

she'd turn weepy and beg us for forgiveness afterward. (The other half of the

time she'd act like nothing had just happened, and was even perky and cheerful.)

She sure as hell chose to " rein in " her rage at work and at her neighbors,

though. She was obsequious and deferential to any authority figure,

particularly if it was a male. My nada would try charming her way out of a

traffic ticket instead of screaming in mindless rage at an officer, I can tell

you. Instead, she'd scream at me after the fact.

I also think that lying, manipulative behaviors, and revenge behaviors take

planning which requires volition: an act of choice or will. I believe my nada

actively chooses to lie, to manipulate and to exact revenge or punish those who

have thwarted or disrespected her.

And its all because whatever my nada wants and needs and feels is more important

than anyone else's needs or feelings. Always.

But that's just my opinion, based on my nada's behaviors. I'm sure other nadas

have different ranges of behaviors or are lower-functioning or have other

co-morbidities. My nada I believe has narcissistic pd and some antisocial pd

traits and some obsessive-compulsive personality disorder traits as well as the

emotional dysregulation of bpd.

-Annie

> >

> > Part of what complicates this question is that there are big individual

variations amongst BPD's. We often write here about " nada " often as if we all

have the same mother the similarities sometimes are so startling. But there are

differences in level of functioning, severity of the abuse, and context.

> >

> > This is just my opinion based on my own experience of thirty years of

chronic depression and observing the personality disorders within my own family.

There is a range in which a person's free will can act, but the range can be

determined and limited by factors outside of their control. The person's

genetics, unique brain chemistry/structure, their formative experiences all go

into determining what that free will range is.

> >

> > So let's say there's a nada who puts on a nice face in public and let's fly

with the FOG in private - this part seems pretty universal for most of us.

Perhaps it is in the very nature of BPD that they will do exactly that with a

vulnerable person who they have control over? And you could say well she could

exercise free will and not FOG her kid but perhaps that is the only way she

*can* relate to a dependent other because of the threat that person represents

to her. A need to control/own those who are close and appease those who are

not....a need which may have been put in place by factors the BPD never did

control.

> >

> > Just my musings,

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

AAAAAAAAAAAAEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGgggggggggggggggggggggggg\

gggggggg!!!1

That was a blood curdling scream.

And it was in response to I can t help it, don t you know I m different.

Oh, boy was that one of nada s favorites! I m depressed. Then talk to

a counselor and get help. I can t , I just want drugs ( xanix), and I m

different, my shrink says talk therapy is what i need, so as long as I

m talking to anyone who will still listen, I m getting therapy.

Mom, talking to someone you just met, or your girl friends, or a

stranger you know only by phone calls, is NOT talk therapy, you need to

be TALKING to a professional counselor.

Well, the one I used to go to is not around anymore and I can t go to

another one.

And round and round we go. BP s can argue you in circles forever. You

will never win the arguement. Cause they are different , of course.

What you can do, and I did, was set boundaries. I will not listen to

you complain about being depressed since you refuse to go to counseling.

If you will not permit your Dr to talk to me about your treatment and

involve me so I know what he is really telling you about it, I will not

take you to the Dr or drugstore to get your meds. Since you deflect

every suggestion for feeling lonely, won t go for walks, go to social

outings, come to family gatherings, I will not listen and give you aww

poor baby responses if you want to talk about it.

But yea, I m different drove me crazy.

>

> Annie, my fada is always a victim, too. So much so that I have coined

the term: " professional victim " however he also has a standard reply for

every request for him to try to cooperate more with the family. " I can't

help it, don't you know I'm different " If he knows he's different and

uses that for an excuse, or as a reason for his victim mentality then

that should be the first step in the desire to to change.

I know that some of the books say that BP's aren't manipulative but I've

watched my father manipulate his brothers and sisters into taking care

of him his whole life and now he is trying to do it to me and my family

and I have a hard time believing that he doesn't know what he's doing.

You show me a book that says BP s are not manipulative and the sailor in

me will come out and castigate and cast aspersions on the ancestry of

the author in the kind of language that causes ships to need repainting

on a regular basis.

Bullshit. They are the most manipulative sons of bitches the world has

ever seen. I suggest the authors of such books adopt one and live with

him for a year.

My physician calls him an " emotional terrorist " and I'm to the point

where no new caretakers are coming into the home unless they agree to

read portions of SWOE. My son who is bi-polar has made the comment that

" every new caretaker who enters the home broadens the front on the war

against emotional terrorism " because the first thing my father does is

engage them in a pity campaign so they will come and tell me how

miserable he is and imply that my family ignores him.

Excllent term. Emotional terrorist, indeed. In any other situation

except where you must have contact, if a BP is doing the I m a victim

and my children are assholes routine, I d confront them with it, in the

presence of the caretakers, and then say , see ya, bitch, and go to NC

or LC.

I think we all need to learn so much more about the brain and mental

illness and mental retardation because there is a link somewhere and if

we keep urging the researchers on we may come to a day when there are

more psychotherapeutic drugs for every one. I just know that even when

my son was cycling in and out of his manic and depressive phases and he

could not control any of his emotions he said there was a part of his

brain that was aware and that he kept giving himself pep talks so he

could get better. I just think there is so much we don't know about the

brain and I've watched my Dad since I was little and I just don't

believe that he doesn't enjoy a part of this. As my husband says " he's

not happy until he has something to be miserable about "

Your husband is entirely right. BP s are never happy till they are

miserable.

> Thanks for letting me air my opinion.

> Kay

Doug

[Guest guest]

AAAAAAAAAAAAEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGgggggggggggggggggggggggg\

gggggggg!!!1

That was a blood curdling scream.

And it was in response to I can t help it, don t you know I m different.

Oh, boy was that one of nada s favorites! I m depressed. Then talk to

a counselor and get help. I can t , I just want drugs ( xanix), and I m

different, my shrink says talk therapy is what i need, so as long as I

m talking to anyone who will still listen, I m getting therapy.

Mom, talking to someone you just met, or your girl friends, or a

stranger you know only by phone calls, is NOT talk therapy, you need to

be TALKING to a professional counselor.

Well, the one I used to go to is not around anymore and I can t go to

another one.

And round and round we go. BP s can argue you in circles forever. You

will never win the arguement. Cause they are different , of course.

What you can do, and I did, was set boundaries. I will not listen to

you complain about being depressed since you refuse to go to counseling.

If you will not permit your Dr to talk to me about your treatment and

involve me so I know what he is really telling you about it, I will not

take you to the Dr or drugstore to get your meds. Since you deflect

every suggestion for feeling lonely, won t go for walks, go to social

outings, come to family gatherings, I will not listen and give you aww

poor baby responses if you want to talk about it.

But yea, I m different drove me crazy.

>

> Annie, my fada is always a victim, too. So much so that I have coined

the term: " professional victim " however he also has a standard reply for

every request for him to try to cooperate more with the family. " I can't

help it, don't you know I'm different " If he knows he's different and

uses that for an excuse, or as a reason for his victim mentality then

that should be the first step in the desire to to change.

I know that some of the books say that BP's aren't manipulative but I've

watched my father manipulate his brothers and sisters into taking care

of him his whole life and now he is trying to do it to me and my family

and I have a hard time believing that he doesn't know what he's doing.

You show me a book that says BP s are not manipulative and the sailor in

me will come out and castigate and cast aspersions on the ancestry of

the author in the kind of language that causes ships to need repainting

on a regular basis.

Bullshit. They are the most manipulative sons of bitches the world has

ever seen. I suggest the authors of such books adopt one and live with

him for a year.

My physician calls him an " emotional terrorist " and I'm to the point

where no new caretakers are coming into the home unless they agree to

read portions of SWOE. My son who is bi-polar has made the comment that

" every new caretaker who enters the home broadens the front on the war

against emotional terrorism " because the first thing my father does is

engage them in a pity campaign so they will come and tell me how

miserable he is and imply that my family ignores him.

Excllent term. Emotional terrorist, indeed. In any other situation

except where you must have contact, if a BP is doing the I m a victim

and my children are assholes routine, I d confront them with it, in the

presence of the caretakers, and then say , see ya, bitch, and go to NC

or LC.

I think we all need to learn so much more about the brain and mental

illness and mental retardation because there is a link somewhere and if

we keep urging the researchers on we may come to a day when there are

more psychotherapeutic drugs for every one. I just know that even when

my son was cycling in and out of his manic and depressive phases and he

could not control any of his emotions he said there was a part of his

brain that was aware and that he kept giving himself pep talks so he

could get better. I just think there is so much we don't know about the

brain and I've watched my Dad since I was little and I just don't

believe that he doesn't enjoy a part of this. As my husband says " he's

not happy until he has something to be miserable about "

Your husband is entirely right. BP s are never happy till they are

miserable.

> Thanks for letting me air my opinion.

> Kay

Doug

[Guest guest]

" And it was in response to I can t help it, don t you know I m different. "

YESYES YES

My nada believed she was different inside and out. She thought she was

physicall different and medical information did not apply to her. Yes, she

said it. Basically just like that. I still can't believe it.

>

>

> AAAAAAAAAAAAEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGgggggggggggggggggggggggg\

> gggggggg!!!1

>

> That was a blood curdling scream.

>

> And it was in response to I can t help it, don t you know I m different.

> Oh, boy was that one of nada s favorites! I m depressed. Then talk to

> a counselor and get help. I can t , I just want drugs ( xanix), and I m

> different, my shrink says talk therapy is what i need, so as long as I

> m talking to anyone who will still listen, I m getting therapy.

>

> Mom, talking to someone you just met, or your girl friends, or a

> stranger you know only by phone calls, is NOT talk therapy, you need to

> be TALKING to a professional counselor.

>

> Well, the one I used to go to is not around anymore and I can t go to

> another one.

>

> And round and round we go. BP s can argue you in circles forever. You

> will never win the arguement. Cause they are different , of course.

>

> What you can do, and I did, was set boundaries. I will not listen to

> you complain about being depressed since you refuse to go to counseling.

> If you will not permit your Dr to talk to me about your treatment and

> involve me so I know what he is really telling you about it, I will not

> take you to the Dr or drugstore to get your meds. Since you deflect

> every suggestion for feeling lonely, won t go for walks, go to social

> outings, come to family gatherings, I will not listen and give you aww

> poor baby responses if you want to talk about it.

>

> But yea, I m different drove me crazy.

>

>

>

> >

> > Annie, my fada is always a victim, too. So much so that I have coined

> the term: " professional victim " however he also has a standard reply for

> every request for him to try to cooperate more with the family. " I can't

> help it, don't you know I'm different " If he knows he's different and

> uses that for an excuse, or as a reason for his victim mentality then

> that should be the first step in the desire to to change.

>

> I know that some of the books say that BP's aren't manipulative but I've

> watched my father manipulate his brothers and sisters into taking care

> of him his whole life and now he is trying to do it to me and my family

> and I have a hard time believing that he doesn't know what he's doing.

>

> You show me a book that says BP s are not manipulative and the sailor in

> me will come out and castigate and cast aspersions on the ancestry of

> the author in the kind of language that causes ships to need repainting

> on a regular basis.

>

> Bullshit. They are the most manipulative sons of bitches the world has

> ever seen. I suggest the authors of such books adopt one and live with

> him for a year.

>

>

> My physician calls him an " emotional terrorist " and I'm to the point

> where no new caretakers are coming into the home unless they agree to

> read portions of SWOE. My son who is bi-polar has made the comment that

> " every new caretaker who enters the home broadens the front on the war

> against emotional terrorism " because the first thing my father does is

> engage them in a pity campaign so they will come and tell me how

> miserable he is and imply that my family ignores him.

>

> Excllent term. Emotional terrorist, indeed. In any other situation

> except where you must have contact, if a BP is doing the I m a victim

> and my children are assholes routine, I d confront them with it, in the

> presence of the caretakers, and then say , see ya, bitch, and go to NC

> or LC.

>

>

> I think we all need to learn so much more about the brain and mental

> illness and mental retardation because there is a link somewhere and if

> we keep urging the researchers on we may come to a day when there are

> more psychotherapeutic drugs for every one. I just know that even when

> my son was cycling in and out of his manic and depressive phases and he

> could not control any of his emotions he said there was a part of his

> brain that was aware and that he kept giving himself pep talks so he

> could get better. I just think there is so much we don't know about the

> brain and I've watched my Dad since I was little and I just don't

> believe that he doesn't enjoy a part of this. As my husband says " he's

> not happy until he has something to be miserable about "

>

> Your husband is entirely right. BP s are never happy till they are

> miserable.

>

>

> > Thanks for letting me air my opinion.

>

> > Kay

>

> Doug

>

>

[Guest guest]

" And it was in response to I can t help it, don t you know I m different. "

YESYES YES

My nada believed she was different inside and out. She thought she was

physicall different and medical information did not apply to her. Yes, she

said it. Basically just like that. I still can't believe it.

>

>

> AAAAAAAAAAAAEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGgggggggggggggggggggggggg\

> gggggggg!!!1

>

> That was a blood curdling scream.

>

> And it was in response to I can t help it, don t you know I m different.

> Oh, boy was that one of nada s favorites! I m depressed. Then talk to

> a counselor and get help. I can t , I just want drugs ( xanix), and I m

> different, my shrink says talk therapy is what i need, so as long as I

> m talking to anyone who will still listen, I m getting therapy.

>

> Mom, talking to someone you just met, or your girl friends, or a

> stranger you know only by phone calls, is NOT talk therapy, you need to

> be TALKING to a professional counselor.

>

> Well, the one I used to go to is not around anymore and I can t go to

> another one.

>

> And round and round we go. BP s can argue you in circles forever. You

> will never win the arguement. Cause they are different , of course.

>

> What you can do, and I did, was set boundaries. I will not listen to

> you complain about being depressed since you refuse to go to counseling.

> If you will not permit your Dr to talk to me about your treatment and

> involve me so I know what he is really telling you about it, I will not

> take you to the Dr or drugstore to get your meds. Since you deflect

> every suggestion for feeling lonely, won t go for walks, go to social

> outings, come to family gatherings, I will not listen and give you aww

> poor baby responses if you want to talk about it.

>

> But yea, I m different drove me crazy.

>

>

>

> >

> > Annie, my fada is always a victim, too. So much so that I have coined

> the term: " professional victim " however he also has a standard reply for

> every request for him to try to cooperate more with the family. " I can't

> help it, don't you know I'm different " If he knows he's different and

> uses that for an excuse, or as a reason for his victim mentality then

> that should be the first step in the desire to to change.

>

> I know that some of the books say that BP's aren't manipulative but I've

> watched my father manipulate his brothers and sisters into taking care

> of him his whole life and now he is trying to do it to me and my family

> and I have a hard time believing that he doesn't know what he's doing.

>

> You show me a book that says BP s are not manipulative and the sailor in

> me will come out and castigate and cast aspersions on the ancestry of

> the author in the kind of language that causes ships to need repainting

> on a regular basis.

>

> Bullshit. They are the most manipulative sons of bitches the world has

> ever seen. I suggest the authors of such books adopt one and live with

> him for a year.

>

>

> My physician calls him an " emotional terrorist " and I'm to the point

> where no new caretakers are coming into the home unless they agree to

> read portions of SWOE. My son who is bi-polar has made the comment that

> " every new caretaker who enters the home broadens the front on the war

> against emotional terrorism " because the first thing my father does is

> engage them in a pity campaign so they will come and tell me how

> miserable he is and imply that my family ignores him.

>

> Excllent term. Emotional terrorist, indeed. In any other situation

> except where you must have contact, if a BP is doing the I m a victim

> and my children are assholes routine, I d confront them with it, in the

> presence of the caretakers, and then say , see ya, bitch, and go to NC

> or LC.

>

>

> I think we all need to learn so much more about the brain and mental

> illness and mental retardation because there is a link somewhere and if

> we keep urging the researchers on we may come to a day when there are

> more psychotherapeutic drugs for every one. I just know that even when

> my son was cycling in and out of his manic and depressive phases and he

> could not control any of his emotions he said there was a part of his

> brain that was aware and that he kept giving himself pep talks so he

> could get better. I just think there is so much we don't know about the

> brain and I've watched my Dad since I was little and I just don't

> believe that he doesn't enjoy a part of this. As my husband says " he's

> not happy until he has something to be miserable about "

>

> Your husband is entirely right. BP s are never happy till they are

> miserable.

>

>

> > Thanks for letting me air my opinion.

>

> > Kay

>

> Doug

>

>

[Guest guest]

Love that scream. I can so relate! Thanks for all of your responses. How

validating to hear from you. I think I read that in Surviving the BP parent. I

can't find that book right now, I put it some place safe, but I'll revisit it. I

couldn't believe my eyes when I read that, but since I'm 56 maybe I didn't read

it right. But thank God you agree that BP's are manipulitive. I thought I was

going back to Oz when I read that. If I read it correctly they were saying the

BP's don't manipulate (because their thought processes are telling them they're

always right and they don't have to manipulate) I gotta find that book. I think

that the authors are perhaps arguing a semantic point because they say it feels

like manipulation but it really isn't. I agree let them live with a BP for a

year.

Thank you from the bottom of my validated heart!

Kay

> >

> > Annie, my fada is always a victim, too. So much so that I have coined

> the term: " professional victim " however he also has a standard reply for

> every request for him to try to cooperate more with the family. " I can't

> help it, don't you know I'm different " If he knows he's different and

> uses that for an excuse, or as a reason for his victim mentality then

> that should be the first step in the desire to to change.

>

>

>

>

> I know that some of the books say that BP's aren't manipulative but I've

> watched my father manipulate his brothers and sisters into taking care

> of him his whole life and now he is trying to do it to me and my family

> and I have a hard time believing that he doesn't know what he's doing.

>

> You show me a book that says BP s are not manipulative and the sailor in

> me will come out and castigate and cast aspersions on the ancestry of

> the author in the kind of language that causes ships to need repainting

> on a regular basis.

>

> Bullshit. They are the most manipulative sons of bitches the world has

> ever seen. I suggest the authors of such books adopt one and live with

> him for a year.

>

> My physician calls him an " emotional terrorist " and I'm to the point

> where no new caretakers are coming into the home unless they agree to

> read portions of SWOE. My son who is bi-polar has made the comment that

> " every new caretaker who enters the home broadens the front on the war

> against emotional terrorism " because the first thing my father does is

> engage them in a pity campaign so they will come and tell me how

> miserable he is and imply that my family ignores him.

>

> Excllent term. Emotional terrorist, indeed. In any other situation

> except where you must have contact, if a BP is doing the I m a victim

> and my children are assholes routine, I d confront them with it, in the

> presence of the caretakers, and then say , see ya, bitch, and go to NC

> or LC.

>

>

>

> I think we all need to learn so much more about the brain and mental

> illness and mental retardation because there is a link somewhere and if

> we keep urging the researchers on we may come to a day when there are

> more psychotherapeutic drugs for every one. I just know that even when

> my son was cycling in and out of his manic and depressive phases and he

> could not control any of his emotions he said there was a part of his

> brain that was aware and that he kept giving himself pep talks so he

> could get better. I just think there is so much we don't know about the

> brain and I've watched my Dad since I was little and I just don't

> believe that he doesn't enjoy a part of this. As my husband says " he's

> not happy until he has something to be miserable about "

>

> Your husband is entirely right. BP s are never happy till they are

> miserable.

>

>

> > Thanks for letting me air my opinion.

>

>

>

> > Kay

>

>

> Doug

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Love that scream. I can so relate! Thanks for all of your responses. How

validating to hear from you. I think I read that in Surviving the BP parent. I

can't find that book right now, I put it some place safe, but I'll revisit it. I

couldn't believe my eyes when I read that, but since I'm 56 maybe I didn't read

it right. But thank God you agree that BP's are manipulitive. I thought I was

going back to Oz when I read that. If I read it correctly they were saying the

BP's don't manipulate (because their thought processes are telling them they're

always right and they don't have to manipulate) I gotta find that book. I think

that the authors are perhaps arguing a semantic point because they say it feels

like manipulation but it really isn't. I agree let them live with a BP for a

year.

Thank you from the bottom of my validated heart!

Kay

> >

> > Annie, my fada is always a victim, too. So much so that I have coined

> the term: " professional victim " however he also has a standard reply for

> every request for him to try to cooperate more with the family. " I can't

> help it, don't you know I'm different " If he knows he's different and

> uses that for an excuse, or as a reason for his victim mentality then

> that should be the first step in the desire to to change.

>

>

>

>

> I know that some of the books say that BP's aren't manipulative but I've

> watched my father manipulate his brothers and sisters into taking care

> of him his whole life and now he is trying to do it to me and my family

> and I have a hard time believing that he doesn't know what he's doing.

>

> You show me a book that says BP s are not manipulative and the sailor in

> me will come out and castigate and cast aspersions on the ancestry of

> the author in the kind of language that causes ships to need repainting

> on a regular basis.

>

> Bullshit. They are the most manipulative sons of bitches the world has

> ever seen. I suggest the authors of such books adopt one and live with

> him for a year.

>

> My physician calls him an " emotional terrorist " and I'm to the point

> where no new caretakers are coming into the home unless they agree to

> read portions of SWOE. My son who is bi-polar has made the comment that

> " every new caretaker who enters the home broadens the front on the war

> against emotional terrorism " because the first thing my father does is

> engage them in a pity campaign so they will come and tell me how

> miserable he is and imply that my family ignores him.

>

> Excllent term. Emotional terrorist, indeed. In any other situation

> except where you must have contact, if a BP is doing the I m a victim

> and my children are assholes routine, I d confront them with it, in the

> presence of the caretakers, and then say , see ya, bitch, and go to NC

> or LC.

>

>

>

> I think we all need to learn so much more about the brain and mental

> illness and mental retardation because there is a link somewhere and if

> we keep urging the researchers on we may come to a day when there are

> more psychotherapeutic drugs for every one. I just know that even when

> my son was cycling in and out of his manic and depressive phases and he

> could not control any of his emotions he said there was a part of his

> brain that was aware and that he kept giving himself pep talks so he

> could get better. I just think there is so much we don't know about the

> brain and I've watched my Dad since I was little and I just don't

> believe that he doesn't enjoy a part of this. As my husband says " he's

> not happy until he has something to be miserable about "

>

> Your husband is entirely right. BP s are never happy till they are

> miserable.

>

>

> > Thanks for letting me air my opinion.

>

>

>

> > Kay

>

>

> Doug

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Oh he** yes they manipulate! Whether they realize it or not, it's

manipulation. I also think my nada did use it in her favor and was most

likely VERY aware of what she was doing many times.

I think she had a super secret mental list full of special lies &

manipulation for every occasion!

Mia

>

>

> Love that scream. I can so relate! Thanks for all of your responses. How

> validating to hear from you. I think I read that in Surviving the BP parent.

> I can't find that book right now, I put it some place safe, but I'll revisit

> it. I couldn't believe my eyes when I read that, but since I'm 56 maybe I

> didn't read it right. But thank God you agree that BP's are manipulitive. I

> thought I was going back to Oz when I read that. If I read it correctly they

> were saying the BP's don't manipulate (because their thought processes are

> telling them they're always right and they don't have to manipulate) I gotta

> find that book. I think that the authors are perhaps arguing a semantic

> point because they say it feels like manipulation but it really isn't. I

> agree let them live with a BP for a year.

> Thank you from the bottom of my validated heart!

> Kay

>

[Guest guest]

According to an article I read about personality-disordered people a a site

called Counseling Resources, even very little children can be manipulative; its

about getting something they want when they want it from someone who can give it

to them.

Its normal for even mentally healthy people to be manipulative *sometimes*

(rarely, occasionally) but if it becomes an individual's only or preferred way

of relating to other people, that's when its a problem and an indicator that

there is an underlying personality disorder behind the behavior.

Frequent lying and manipulative behaviors are traits of narcissistic pd and

antisocial pd, but, its not unusual for someone with borderline pd to display

other Cluster B personality disorder traits or have other mental illnesses at

the same time (have co-morbidities).

Here's the Counseling Resources article about personality disorder:

http://counsellingresource.com/distress/personality-disorders/understanding/inde\

x.html

-Annie

>

> >

> >

> > Love that scream. I can so relate! Thanks for all of your responses. How

> > validating to hear from you. I think I read that in Surviving the BP parent.

> > I can't find that book right now, I put it some place safe, but I'll revisit

> > it. I couldn't believe my eyes when I read that, but since I'm 56 maybe I

> > didn't read it right. But thank God you agree that BP's are manipulitive. I

> > thought I was going back to Oz when I read that. If I read it correctly they

> > were saying the BP's don't manipulate (because their thought processes are

> > telling them they're always right and they don't have to manipulate) I gotta

> > find that book. I think that the authors are perhaps arguing a semantic

> > point because they say it feels like manipulation but it really isn't. I

> > agree let them live with a BP for a year.

> > Thank you from the bottom of my validated heart!

> > Kay

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

According to an article I read about personality-disordered people a a site

called Counseling Resources, even very little children can be manipulative; its

about getting something they want when they want it from someone who can give it

to them.

Its normal for even mentally healthy people to be manipulative *sometimes*

(rarely, occasionally) but if it becomes an individual's only or preferred way

of relating to other people, that's when its a problem and an indicator that

there is an underlying personality disorder behind the behavior.

Frequent lying and manipulative behaviors are traits of narcissistic pd and

antisocial pd, but, its not unusual for someone with borderline pd to display

other Cluster B personality disorder traits or have other mental illnesses at

the same time (have co-morbidities).

Here's the Counseling Resources article about personality disorder:

http://counsellingresource.com/distress/personality-disorders/understanding/inde\

x.html

-Annie

>

> >

> >

> > Love that scream. I can so relate! Thanks for all of your responses. How

> > validating to hear from you. I think I read that in Surviving the BP parent.

> > I can't find that book right now, I put it some place safe, but I'll revisit

> > it. I couldn't believe my eyes when I read that, but since I'm 56 maybe I

> > didn't read it right. But thank God you agree that BP's are manipulitive. I

> > thought I was going back to Oz when I read that. If I read it correctly they

> > were saying the BP's don't manipulate (because their thought processes are

> > telling them they're always right and they don't have to manipulate) I gotta

> > find that book. I think that the authors are perhaps arguing a semantic

> > point because they say it feels like manipulation but it really isn't. I

> > agree let them live with a BP for a year.

> > Thank you from the bottom of my validated heart!

> > Kay

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Oh I agree Annie. I think manipualtion is a human trait. All of the BPD

traits are human, however, when taken to that extreme that's when it becomes

an illness.

Just like you were saying with the OCD thing (I loved that, thank you)...

it's like a bell curve... these traits are normal somewhere in the middle,

but on either end of the bell, that's when it's an issue.

In fact, as I was learning in one of my nursing classes about cultural

diversity, in some cultures manipulation is a respected trait. I get it,

but I admit it kinda creeped me out lol.

Mia

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 11:45 AM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> According to an article I read about personality-disordered people a a site

> called Counseling Resources, even very little children can be manipulative;

> its about getting something they want when they want it from someone who can

> give it to them.

>

> Its normal for even mentally healthy people to be manipulative *sometimes*

> (rarely, occasionally) but if it becomes an individual's only or preferred

> way of relating to other people, that's when its a problem and an indicator

> that there is an underlying personality disorder behind the behavior.

>

> Frequent lying and manipulative behaviors are traits of narcissistic pd and

> antisocial pd, but, its not unusual for someone with borderline pd to

> display other Cluster B personality disorder traits or have other mental

> illnesses at the same time (have co-morbidities).

>

> Here's the Counseling Resources article about personality disorder:

>

>

>

http://counsellingresource.com/distress/personality-disorders/understanding/inde\

x.html

>

> -Annie

>

>

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > Love that scream. I can so relate! Thanks for all of your responses.

> How

> > > validating to hear from you. I think I read that in Surviving the BP

> parent.

> > > I can't find that book right now, I put it some place safe, but I'll

> revisit

> > > it. I couldn't believe my eyes when I read that, but since I'm 56 maybe

> I

> > > didn't read it right. But thank God you agree that BP's are

> manipulitive. I

> > > thought I was going back to Oz when I read that. If I read it correctly

> they

> > > were saying the BP's don't manipulate (because their thought processes

> are

> > > telling them they're always right and they don't have to manipulate) I

> gotta

> > > find that book. I think that the authors are perhaps arguing a semantic

> > > point because they say it feels like manipulation but it really isn't.

> I

> > > agree let them live with a BP for a year.

> > > Thank you from the bottom of my validated heart!

> > > Kay

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Oh I agree Annie. I think manipualtion is a human trait. All of the BPD

traits are human, however, when taken to that extreme that's when it becomes

an illness.

Just like you were saying with the OCD thing (I loved that, thank you)...

it's like a bell curve... these traits are normal somewhere in the middle,

but on either end of the bell, that's when it's an issue.

In fact, as I was learning in one of my nursing classes about cultural

diversity, in some cultures manipulation is a respected trait. I get it,

but I admit it kinda creeped me out lol.

Mia

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 11:45 AM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> According to an article I read about personality-disordered people a a site

> called Counseling Resources, even very little children can be manipulative;

> its about getting something they want when they want it from someone who can

> give it to them.

>

> Its normal for even mentally healthy people to be manipulative *sometimes*

> (rarely, occasionally) but if it becomes an individual's only or preferred

> way of relating to other people, that's when its a problem and an indicator

> that there is an underlying personality disorder behind the behavior.

>

> Frequent lying and manipulative behaviors are traits of narcissistic pd and

> antisocial pd, but, its not unusual for someone with borderline pd to

> display other Cluster B personality disorder traits or have other mental

> illnesses at the same time (have co-morbidities).

>

> Here's the Counseling Resources article about personality disorder:

>

>

>

http://counsellingresource.com/distress/personality-disorders/understanding/inde\

x.html

>

> -Annie

>

>

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > Love that scream. I can so relate! Thanks for all of your responses.

> How

> > > validating to hear from you. I think I read that in Surviving the BP

> parent.

> > > I can't find that book right now, I put it some place safe, but I'll

> revisit

> > > it. I couldn't believe my eyes when I read that, but since I'm 56 maybe

> I

> > > didn't read it right. But thank God you agree that BP's are

> manipulitive. I

> > > thought I was going back to Oz when I read that. If I read it correctly

> they

> > > were saying the BP's don't manipulate (because their thought processes

> are

> > > telling them they're always right and they don't have to manipulate) I

> gotta

> > > find that book. I think that the authors are perhaps arguing a semantic

> > > point because they say it feels like manipulation but it really isn't.

> I

> > > agree let them live with a BP for a year.

> > > Thank you from the bottom of my validated heart!

> > > Kay

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Oh I agree Annie. I think manipualtion is a human trait. All of the BPD

traits are human, however, when taken to that extreme that's when it becomes

an illness.

Just like you were saying with the OCD thing (I loved that, thank you)...

it's like a bell curve... these traits are normal somewhere in the middle,

but on either end of the bell, that's when it's an issue.

In fact, as I was learning in one of my nursing classes about cultural

diversity, in some cultures manipulation is a respected trait. I get it,

but I admit it kinda creeped me out lol.

Mia

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 11:45 AM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> According to an article I read about personality-disordered people a a site

> called Counseling Resources, even very little children can be manipulative;

> its about getting something they want when they want it from someone who can

> give it to them.

>

> Its normal for even mentally healthy people to be manipulative *sometimes*

> (rarely, occasionally) but if it becomes an individual's only or preferred

> way of relating to other people, that's when its a problem and an indicator

> that there is an underlying personality disorder behind the behavior.

>

> Frequent lying and manipulative behaviors are traits of narcissistic pd and

> antisocial pd, but, its not unusual for someone with borderline pd to

> display other Cluster B personality disorder traits or have other mental

> illnesses at the same time (have co-morbidities).

>

> Here's the Counseling Resources article about personality disorder:

>

>

>

http://counsellingresource.com/distress/personality-disorders/understanding/inde\

x.html

>

> -Annie

>

>

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > Love that scream. I can so relate! Thanks for all of your responses.

> How

> > > validating to hear from you. I think I read that in Surviving the BP

> parent.

> > > I can't find that book right now, I put it some place safe, but I'll

> revisit

> > > it. I couldn't believe my eyes when I read that, but since I'm 56 maybe

> I

> > > didn't read it right. But thank God you agree that BP's are

> manipulitive. I

> > > thought I was going back to Oz when I read that. If I read it correctly

> they

> > > were saying the BP's don't manipulate (because their thought processes

> are

> > > telling them they're always right and they don't have to manipulate) I

> gotta

> > > find that book. I think that the authors are perhaps arguing a semantic

> > > point because they say it feels like manipulation but it really isn't.

> I

> > > agree let them live with a BP for a year.

> > > Thank you from the bottom of my validated heart!

> > > Kay

> > >

> >

> >

> >