Guest guest Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Hey , No, I don't think its too late. And I don't think you need to make a big deal about walking away, maybe just say you were young and overwhelmed with emotion. And now a story. When my boyfriend was in high school, his best friend died of a congenital heart disease. This changed my boyfriend's whole world. The gammut of emotions - from rage to sadness to happiness for great shared memories. So about 3 years ago, I suggested he dedicate a series of artwork to friend's memory (boyfriend is an artist). We decided to call the friend's parents and tell them what we were up to (I say we, but I only did the publicity for the show). The parents agreed to meet with us, but they were pretty disengaged. It seemed they were to upset to face their feelings and relive their emotions. They did spend about 1/2 hour with us, but I was kind of surprised by how noncommital, unexcited and disinterested they were. They never even came to see the full show (one piece per month for an entire year) displayed in a gallery. We didn't take it personally, we just chalked it up to being their emotions that maybe they hadn't dealt with. Their older son had died of the same thing. Sheesh, imagine watching 2 children slowly die. . . horrible. Anyway, a lot of friend's siblings (I think he had 3 sisters, only boys were suseptable to this inherited disease) followed the shows, watched them unveiled online and sent wonderful feedback. A couple of mutual friends from high school broke down right in noisy tears full force in public when we told them what we were doing. It moved a lot of people. So my point for you , is what if you did a fundraiser or memorial? That's probably what I would do. XOXO, Girlscout On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 9:36 PM, christine.depizan < christine.depizan@...> wrote: > > > Yenaine,thank you *so much* for your suggestions and ideas!!! Your post was > great!!!! > > I changed the thread title since this isn't so much about Bunny now > (although he is ever present in my heart lol) > > Wow,it's extremely helpful to get this kind of feedback from someone who > deals with these issues on a professional basis and who knows how to handle > them.What you wrote is not too much at all--I sincerely,totally appreciate > your thoughtful post > > Ok,so...trying not to write a book here ...as I was reading your > suggestions I realized that my main blockage truly is the Ellen's mother > question.I feel like I can't possibly proceed or even decide if I would > proceed without trying to resolve that issue.That if I could meet with > her,it could unblock me and the way forward would be much much more > clear.And then I could decide about the rest. > > What you said about mothers of deceased children being grateful that anyone > even remembers their child was *extremely helpful*!!! Yes,I believe this is > equally true of Ellen's mother.She became " friends " with my nada for those > two years we knew eachother before Ellen died--then after the funeral nada > dropped her pretty much,I think because of her own discomfort and not > knowing what to do or say,etc.It was definitely like nada's life went on and > she forgot.I have wanted so much to contact Ellen's mother but I'm just not > sure how to approach it.I'm too close to all of it emotionally--I'm > complicating it; I can't seem to simplify it down to what would I actually > say! What do you think,as an objective observer? I mean,any thoughts on how > to initiate contact in the first place,leaving out all the other reasons > why? > > I really would like to finally " bite the bullet " on this,as they > say,because seriously unless I get a better sense of where Ellen's mother is > with her death I just *can't* even contemplate making my version of events > public in any way. > > But here is why I haven't done it (although believe me,I've imagined doing > it many times over the years)--and tell me honestly if you think this is me > being a self castigating KO,too,ok?--the last impression Ellen's mother has > of me isn't of me as a sort of formless little five year old.Her last > impression of me is from when I was at the same school as Ellen's younger > sister,L. and also from an encounter she had with nada when I was living in > Paris,at which time nada ran into her in some store and told her all about > how I was this selfish horrible person who took off for Paris and left her > in the dust--which reinforced the unfavorable view I think that L. had of > me,which she would have shared with her mother. > > Maybe I'm thinking too much,but...I convinced nada and fada to let me apply > to a performing arts school in the city when I was fifteen and I got in.By > the end of that school year I had turned the school upside down and the > headmaster told me that I was not welcome to return.The story you told in > one of your posts about coming into school just to take your exams made me > laugh because it reminded me of me: by the time we had our end of the year > final exams I had been basically banned from the premises and had to sneak > into the building to take my exams.It's another long story!!! It was a great > school,very liberal and open,but the headmaster was a petty tyrant.I tried > to institute some changes,such as not dissecting dead kittens in biology > class,something the biology teacher agreed to when I protested,but when he > shipped the vat of dead kittens back to the evil lab they'd come from--for > the first time---and the headmaster found out that I had started a > successful protest,he was pissed off that a mere student would direct > " school policy " and when he decided to try to lord it over me,I launched > another protest and formed a sort of teacher/student union....and > inadvertantly started a little revolution with the teachers protesting his > policies and one of their protest actions was to put me in charge of a > theatre class,directing a play I had written,like an anarchist style > protest--and when the headmaster tried to shut the play down the teachers > threatened to strike and the other students threatened to walk out,so he had > to back down.And man,did he hate me by that point.He was always looking for > *any* infraction to punish me with.Silly reckless me,I then took on the > history teacher who was a *complete* misogynist who distorted women's roles > in history: to him,all female historical figures were just whores and when > we were studying the French Revolution he told us all these weird salacious > tales about the revolutionary's " mistresses " that were like cheap porno > instead of history and then one day he brought in a record of Poulenc's > opera about the beheading of the Carmelite nuns: the final chorus is the > nuns singing on their way to the guillotine and as their heads are chopped > off one by one the chorus diminishes until there's one last voice and > then--CHOP!--silence.He was pacing about the room as the nuns were beheaded > and he was clearly getting off on it like some psycho and as soon as the > record ended I stood up and stated that until he committed himself to > actually teaching us *history* rather than use the classroom as a platform > for his sick misogynistic biases that I was going to boycott his class and > did anyone want to join me? > > Of course nobody dared to,but I walked out.The headmaster then ordered that > I sit out that class in his office and as word spread about my protest,the > other students visited me in the office to offer their support and the > headmaster kept having to tell them to leave.The other teachers were > thanking me for protesting because they all thought the history teacher was > a creep and they wished he'd be fired. > > Near the end of the year this headmaster was constantly threatening me with > expulsion and arbitrarily ordering me to stay in his office.The teachers and > the students decided to stage a protest in the auditorium but the headmaster > responded in a rage saying he'd fire any teacher who participated ( " I have > all summer to hire new teachers " ) and that he'd suspend every single student > who participated if he had to: he was standing there screaming, " I have your > parent's phone numbers and I have all day! " They backed down--he took me > into his office and told me that I was banned from the school grounds. > > The other thing is that at the time I was a very vocal,very out lesbian.At > the time,anyway,I thought that was what I was.I discovered later that I like > men too--but at the time I was defiantly " out " and defying anyone to dare > bully me about it.Everyone knew.The highlight of that was that two gay male > students were empowered and emboldened by my stance to " come out " publically > too and the other students and most of the teachers were rallying around our > " right " to " free expression " while the headmaster was,again,going nuts > because he thought that the school was going to get a " reputation " .Then two > of the teachers,a male theatre teacher and a female dance teacher, " came out " > publically too in the interests of promoting a " safe environment " and when > the headmaster tried to sanction them for engaging in " unprofessional > behavior " we the students threatened to call the media and forced him to > leave them alone.I think he felt like he was losing control of his school > but most of us students were bonding and getting a buzz from all the > excitement.I knew,just knew,that at some point the head that was going to > roll would be mine.And although most of the students were having a blast > from all the protesting and uproar,there was a sizable minority who totally > resented all the commotion and who supported the headmaster in his efforts > to restore order--these students asked me on several occasions to cease and > desist and chided me for being such a disruption. > > Anyway,in the midst of all of this,one day a younger girl from one of the > junior classes approached me on the stairs and shyly asked me if I was from > X town.I said yes and she said, " You probably don't remember me... " > > I didn't recognize her.I told her,no,I didn't remember her but had we > worked together on a theatre project? > > She said hesitantly, " I was only a baby at the time but I think you were > friends with my sister Ellen... " > > As soon as she said that,I dissociated.Completely.I could not access that > experience.It was a personal taboo--and what did I do?,this breaker of > taboos who was known as being so " cool " ,I walked away.I frigging walked away > from her! Like a complete effing jerk.I wwnt blank and shut down and I just > turned and walked away.While in my head,my internal voice was screaming: How > can you be so rude?! What's wrong with you?! Don't do that to her!... But > like a zombie,I just walked away. > > L. was,at the time,one of the " younger students " the headmaster was trying > to " protect " from our decadence.L. was one of those students from the > conservative outlying suburbs who stayed out of the fray,never making waves > or calling any attention to herself.It was students like her,according to > the headmaster,who kept the school functioning as it should be: students who > attended their classes like quiet little mice.I didn't recognize her or know > who she was because she wasn't part of the core of students who were > firebombing " the establishment " with me. > > And the only reason why she had approached me at all was because she > thought I must be the from X town who had been her dead sister's > friend.And because I had known her sister,she was willing to strike up a > connection with me for sentimental reasons...and I frigging walked away from > her like she was a pariah.Not because I thought she was.But because my > conditioning was to automatically deny any thought of Ellen.Of course she > couldn't have known that. > > She also didn't know that,because of that encounter,I slowly and quietly > had a nervous breakdown.I couldn't stop crying at home,at night,although I > didn't know why.I felt like I was losing my mind from this grief I couldn't > even name.Nada very helpfully screamed at me to stop crying,she was " so > sick " of listening to me cry.I felt suicidal,but I didn't know why.I felt > like I was dying inside,too. > > When nada ran into Ellen's mother in that store,she said to me later that > Ellen's mother had seemed embarassed about me having attended the same > school as L and it was like she didn't know what to say to nada.Yes,that's > nada's unreliable word but I believe it because the last thing she knew > about me was that I had been this obnoxious lesbian iconoclast who > completely disrupted the school's functioning and that when her daughter had > kindly tried to approach me in spite of that,I had rudely walked away as if > I had no idea who Ellen was and didn't care at all--or worse,that I just > didn't want to know.So that's her impression of me. > > How do I do damage control on that? What could I say now? What would be my > reasons for wanting to contact her about Ellen now? How would I apologize to > L. for being so rude to her? > > I know that I can't tell Ellen's mother that I was in love with her > daughter...she's a devout Catholic...I seriously doubt that she'd want to > believe that her daughter might have grown up to be queer and honestly since > Ellen was only five when she died I can't say myself if that would have been > the case.That's the other problem with anything that I would write about > Ellen: the precocious but romantic nature of our friendship.I don't want to > edit that out but I also don't want to insult her memory,in her mother's > Catholic view of it. > > Any more ideas ????? I do know how I could find Ellen's mother so it's > only a matter now of figuring out how to initiate contact.I need basic > instruction here,I think--whatever simplicity there is to this situation is > eluding me entirely at the moment. > > Everything you wrote in your post was really helpful and I thank you!!!! > See,I wrote a " book " anyway and you know what I did try to keep it > brief...oh,well...But how is this for a new year's resolution: I will > contact Ellen's mother so I can find out what *she* thinks about the > whole thing...and go from there,armed with some knowledge,hopefully... > > Any thoughts you have to share with this neurotic KO would be very > gratefully received...I can't thank you enough for reaching out to give me > encouragement and support.Your words made me feel like I can actually do > this.You are a diamond,Yenaine!!!!! MWAH!!!!! Merci infiniment!!!!! > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Hey , No, I don't think its too late. And I don't think you need to make a big deal about walking away, maybe just say you were young and overwhelmed with emotion. And now a story. When my boyfriend was in high school, his best friend died of a congenital heart disease. This changed my boyfriend's whole world. The gammut of emotions - from rage to sadness to happiness for great shared memories. So about 3 years ago, I suggested he dedicate a series of artwork to friend's memory (boyfriend is an artist). We decided to call the friend's parents and tell them what we were up to (I say we, but I only did the publicity for the show). The parents agreed to meet with us, but they were pretty disengaged. It seemed they were to upset to face their feelings and relive their emotions. They did spend about 1/2 hour with us, but I was kind of surprised by how noncommital, unexcited and disinterested they were. They never even came to see the full show (one piece per month for an entire year) displayed in a gallery. We didn't take it personally, we just chalked it up to being their emotions that maybe they hadn't dealt with. Their older son had died of the same thing. Sheesh, imagine watching 2 children slowly die. . . horrible. Anyway, a lot of friend's siblings (I think he had 3 sisters, only boys were suseptable to this inherited disease) followed the shows, watched them unveiled online and sent wonderful feedback. A couple of mutual friends from high school broke down right in noisy tears full force in public when we told them what we were doing. It moved a lot of people. So my point for you , is what if you did a fundraiser or memorial? That's probably what I would do. XOXO, Girlscout On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 9:36 PM, christine.depizan < christine.depizan@...> wrote: > > > Yenaine,thank you *so much* for your suggestions and ideas!!! Your post was > great!!!! > > I changed the thread title since this isn't so much about Bunny now > (although he is ever present in my heart lol) > > Wow,it's extremely helpful to get this kind of feedback from someone who > deals with these issues on a professional basis and who knows how to handle > them.What you wrote is not too much at all--I sincerely,totally appreciate > your thoughtful post > > Ok,so...trying not to write a book here ...as I was reading your > suggestions I realized that my main blockage truly is the Ellen's mother > question.I feel like I can't possibly proceed or even decide if I would > proceed without trying to resolve that issue.That if I could meet with > her,it could unblock me and the way forward would be much much more > clear.And then I could decide about the rest. > > What you said about mothers of deceased children being grateful that anyone > even remembers their child was *extremely helpful*!!! Yes,I believe this is > equally true of Ellen's mother.She became " friends " with my nada for those > two years we knew eachother before Ellen died--then after the funeral nada > dropped her pretty much,I think because of her own discomfort and not > knowing what to do or say,etc.It was definitely like nada's life went on and > she forgot.I have wanted so much to contact Ellen's mother but I'm just not > sure how to approach it.I'm too close to all of it emotionally--I'm > complicating it; I can't seem to simplify it down to what would I actually > say! What do you think,as an objective observer? I mean,any thoughts on how > to initiate contact in the first place,leaving out all the other reasons > why? > > I really would like to finally " bite the bullet " on this,as they > say,because seriously unless I get a better sense of where Ellen's mother is > with her death I just *can't* even contemplate making my version of events > public in any way. > > But here is why I haven't done it (although believe me,I've imagined doing > it many times over the years)--and tell me honestly if you think this is me > being a self castigating KO,too,ok?--the last impression Ellen's mother has > of me isn't of me as a sort of formless little five year old.Her last > impression of me is from when I was at the same school as Ellen's younger > sister,L. and also from an encounter she had with nada when I was living in > Paris,at which time nada ran into her in some store and told her all about > how I was this selfish horrible person who took off for Paris and left her > in the dust--which reinforced the unfavorable view I think that L. had of > me,which she would have shared with her mother. > > Maybe I'm thinking too much,but...I convinced nada and fada to let me apply > to a performing arts school in the city when I was fifteen and I got in.By > the end of that school year I had turned the school upside down and the > headmaster told me that I was not welcome to return.The story you told in > one of your posts about coming into school just to take your exams made me > laugh because it reminded me of me: by the time we had our end of the year > final exams I had been basically banned from the premises and had to sneak > into the building to take my exams.It's another long story!!! It was a great > school,very liberal and open,but the headmaster was a petty tyrant.I tried > to institute some changes,such as not dissecting dead kittens in biology > class,something the biology teacher agreed to when I protested,but when he > shipped the vat of dead kittens back to the evil lab they'd come from--for > the first time---and the headmaster found out that I had started a > successful protest,he was pissed off that a mere student would direct > " school policy " and when he decided to try to lord it over me,I launched > another protest and formed a sort of teacher/student union....and > inadvertantly started a little revolution with the teachers protesting his > policies and one of their protest actions was to put me in charge of a > theatre class,directing a play I had written,like an anarchist style > protest--and when the headmaster tried to shut the play down the teachers > threatened to strike and the other students threatened to walk out,so he had > to back down.And man,did he hate me by that point.He was always looking for > *any* infraction to punish me with.Silly reckless me,I then took on the > history teacher who was a *complete* misogynist who distorted women's roles > in history: to him,all female historical figures were just whores and when > we were studying the French Revolution he told us all these weird salacious > tales about the revolutionary's " mistresses " that were like cheap porno > instead of history and then one day he brought in a record of Poulenc's > opera about the beheading of the Carmelite nuns: the final chorus is the > nuns singing on their way to the guillotine and as their heads are chopped > off one by one the chorus diminishes until there's one last voice and > then--CHOP!--silence.He was pacing about the room as the nuns were beheaded > and he was clearly getting off on it like some psycho and as soon as the > record ended I stood up and stated that until he committed himself to > actually teaching us *history* rather than use the classroom as a platform > for his sick misogynistic biases that I was going to boycott his class and > did anyone want to join me? > > Of course nobody dared to,but I walked out.The headmaster then ordered that > I sit out that class in his office and as word spread about my protest,the > other students visited me in the office to offer their support and the > headmaster kept having to tell them to leave.The other teachers were > thanking me for protesting because they all thought the history teacher was > a creep and they wished he'd be fired. > > Near the end of the year this headmaster was constantly threatening me with > expulsion and arbitrarily ordering me to stay in his office.The teachers and > the students decided to stage a protest in the auditorium but the headmaster > responded in a rage saying he'd fire any teacher who participated ( " I have > all summer to hire new teachers " ) and that he'd suspend every single student > who participated if he had to: he was standing there screaming, " I have your > parent's phone numbers and I have all day! " They backed down--he took me > into his office and told me that I was banned from the school grounds. > > The other thing is that at the time I was a very vocal,very out lesbian.At > the time,anyway,I thought that was what I was.I discovered later that I like > men too--but at the time I was defiantly " out " and defying anyone to dare > bully me about it.Everyone knew.The highlight of that was that two gay male > students were empowered and emboldened by my stance to " come out " publically > too and the other students and most of the teachers were rallying around our > " right " to " free expression " while the headmaster was,again,going nuts > because he thought that the school was going to get a " reputation " .Then two > of the teachers,a male theatre teacher and a female dance teacher, " came out " > publically too in the interests of promoting a " safe environment " and when > the headmaster tried to sanction them for engaging in " unprofessional > behavior " we the students threatened to call the media and forced him to > leave them alone.I think he felt like he was losing control of his school > but most of us students were bonding and getting a buzz from all the > excitement.I knew,just knew,that at some point the head that was going to > roll would be mine.And although most of the students were having a blast > from all the protesting and uproar,there was a sizable minority who totally > resented all the commotion and who supported the headmaster in his efforts > to restore order--these students asked me on several occasions to cease and > desist and chided me for being such a disruption. > > Anyway,in the midst of all of this,one day a younger girl from one of the > junior classes approached me on the stairs and shyly asked me if I was from > X town.I said yes and she said, " You probably don't remember me... " > > I didn't recognize her.I told her,no,I didn't remember her but had we > worked together on a theatre project? > > She said hesitantly, " I was only a baby at the time but I think you were > friends with my sister Ellen... " > > As soon as she said that,I dissociated.Completely.I could not access that > experience.It was a personal taboo--and what did I do?,this breaker of > taboos who was known as being so " cool " ,I walked away.I frigging walked away > from her! Like a complete effing jerk.I wwnt blank and shut down and I just > turned and walked away.While in my head,my internal voice was screaming: How > can you be so rude?! What's wrong with you?! Don't do that to her!... But > like a zombie,I just walked away. > > L. was,at the time,one of the " younger students " the headmaster was trying > to " protect " from our decadence.L. was one of those students from the > conservative outlying suburbs who stayed out of the fray,never making waves > or calling any attention to herself.It was students like her,according to > the headmaster,who kept the school functioning as it should be: students who > attended their classes like quiet little mice.I didn't recognize her or know > who she was because she wasn't part of the core of students who were > firebombing " the establishment " with me. > > And the only reason why she had approached me at all was because she > thought I must be the from X town who had been her dead sister's > friend.And because I had known her sister,she was willing to strike up a > connection with me for sentimental reasons...and I frigging walked away from > her like she was a pariah.Not because I thought she was.But because my > conditioning was to automatically deny any thought of Ellen.Of course she > couldn't have known that. > > She also didn't know that,because of that encounter,I slowly and quietly > had a nervous breakdown.I couldn't stop crying at home,at night,although I > didn't know why.I felt like I was losing my mind from this grief I couldn't > even name.Nada very helpfully screamed at me to stop crying,she was " so > sick " of listening to me cry.I felt suicidal,but I didn't know why.I felt > like I was dying inside,too. > > When nada ran into Ellen's mother in that store,she said to me later that > Ellen's mother had seemed embarassed about me having attended the same > school as L and it was like she didn't know what to say to nada.Yes,that's > nada's unreliable word but I believe it because the last thing she knew > about me was that I had been this obnoxious lesbian iconoclast who > completely disrupted the school's functioning and that when her daughter had > kindly tried to approach me in spite of that,I had rudely walked away as if > I had no idea who Ellen was and didn't care at all--or worse,that I just > didn't want to know.So that's her impression of me. > > How do I do damage control on that? What could I say now? What would be my > reasons for wanting to contact her about Ellen now? How would I apologize to > L. for being so rude to her? > > I know that I can't tell Ellen's mother that I was in love with her > daughter...she's a devout Catholic...I seriously doubt that she'd want to > believe that her daughter might have grown up to be queer and honestly since > Ellen was only five when she died I can't say myself if that would have been > the case.That's the other problem with anything that I would write about > Ellen: the precocious but romantic nature of our friendship.I don't want to > edit that out but I also don't want to insult her memory,in her mother's > Catholic view of it. > > Any more ideas ????? I do know how I could find Ellen's mother so it's > only a matter now of figuring out how to initiate contact.I need basic > instruction here,I think--whatever simplicity there is to this situation is > eluding me entirely at the moment. > > Everything you wrote in your post was really helpful and I thank you!!!! > See,I wrote a " book " anyway and you know what I did try to keep it > brief...oh,well...But how is this for a new year's resolution: I will > contact Ellen's mother so I can find out what *she* thinks about the > whole thing...and go from there,armed with some knowledge,hopefully... > > Any thoughts you have to share with this neurotic KO would be very > gratefully received...I can't thank you enough for reaching out to give me > encouragement and support.Your words made me feel like I can actually do > this.You are a diamond,Yenaine!!!!! MWAH!!!!! Merci infiniment!!!!! > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 ..That's the other problem with anything that I would write about Ellen: the precocious but romantic nature of our friendship.I don't want to edit that out but I also don't want to insult her memory,in her mother's Catholic view of it. Um, I don't mean to minimize what you are feeling (so I'm sorry if I do, I don't know how to say this in a better way) but IMO nobody is " in love " at 5 years old. Kids at that age start trying on little infatuations and mini-obsessions, sometimes even role play or pretend of a romantic nature, or even kissing or holding hands with other kids with genuine fondness, but it really has nothing to do with love or sexuality, IMO. It's just innocent. I think you'd be fine just telling Ellen's mother how much you loved and admired Ellen and that her friendship was important to you and you miss her. What good would it do to say anything more than that? If you have attached romantic feelings or feelings of idealized love to Ellen's memory (and I'm not saying you have, I don't know), it might be helpful for you to examine why...but let that be something to work out on your own. As far as being nervous about approaching the family given how you behaved in the past, I think that's understandable. I think they would probably appreciate your genuine apology and would probably even understand if you just told them the truth about how you didn't know how to deal with your feelings at the time. I know it's a big step to think about talking to them, and I think it might be very healing for you. I wish you all the best! KT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 ..That's the other problem with anything that I would write about Ellen: the precocious but romantic nature of our friendship.I don't want to edit that out but I also don't want to insult her memory,in her mother's Catholic view of it. Um, I don't mean to minimize what you are feeling (so I'm sorry if I do, I don't know how to say this in a better way) but IMO nobody is " in love " at 5 years old. Kids at that age start trying on little infatuations and mini-obsessions, sometimes even role play or pretend of a romantic nature, or even kissing or holding hands with other kids with genuine fondness, but it really has nothing to do with love or sexuality, IMO. It's just innocent. I think you'd be fine just telling Ellen's mother how much you loved and admired Ellen and that her friendship was important to you and you miss her. What good would it do to say anything more than that? If you have attached romantic feelings or feelings of idealized love to Ellen's memory (and I'm not saying you have, I don't know), it might be helpful for you to examine why...but let that be something to work out on your own. As far as being nervous about approaching the family given how you behaved in the past, I think that's understandable. I think they would probably appreciate your genuine apology and would probably even understand if you just told them the truth about how you didn't know how to deal with your feelings at the time. I know it's a big step to think about talking to them, and I think it might be very healing for you. I wish you all the best! KT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 ..That's the other problem with anything that I would write about Ellen: the precocious but romantic nature of our friendship.I don't want to edit that out but I also don't want to insult her memory,in her mother's Catholic view of it. Um, I don't mean to minimize what you are feeling (so I'm sorry if I do, I don't know how to say this in a better way) but IMO nobody is " in love " at 5 years old. Kids at that age start trying on little infatuations and mini-obsessions, sometimes even role play or pretend of a romantic nature, or even kissing or holding hands with other kids with genuine fondness, but it really has nothing to do with love or sexuality, IMO. It's just innocent. I think you'd be fine just telling Ellen's mother how much you loved and admired Ellen and that her friendship was important to you and you miss her. What good would it do to say anything more than that? If you have attached romantic feelings or feelings of idealized love to Ellen's memory (and I'm not saying you have, I don't know), it might be helpful for you to examine why...but let that be something to work out on your own. As far as being nervous about approaching the family given how you behaved in the past, I think that's understandable. I think they would probably appreciate your genuine apology and would probably even understand if you just told them the truth about how you didn't know how to deal with your feelings at the time. I know it's a big step to think about talking to them, and I think it might be very healing for you. I wish you all the best! KT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Hola ! Every person is different and react differently. So it is hard to me to say what would be the proper way to contact Ellen's mother. I would make it simple , honest , respectful , loving and with good intent (leaving out all the details which could disturb her to much). There is no way to predict what will happen ( not with her and not with you) doesn't matter how many scenarios you will imagine.. It is like trying to figure out if it is ok for you and for others to walk out from your flat in the morning - life always surprises you :-)) the most importnat is to fallow your true self and to try to do everything with your best intention :-) But whatever will happen - it would probably unblock some of your stuck energy. But these are my thoughts you have to think and decided for yourselves. Yenaine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Thank you,Girlscout! You're so sweet I agree with you--it's not necessary to make a big deal about how I walked away,but to simply apologize and to say something like: L.,I was very young and when you remembered that I had been friends with Ellen I just got overwhelmed and didn't know how to handle it.I hope you can forgive me. Thanks for your feedback Yes,having your best friend die when you're young can be life altering.That's so sad that your boyfriend's friend's parents lost two children to the same congenital disease.It seems to me that would be something exceptionally difficult to ever come to terms with as a parent.But it's lovely that your BF was able to honor his friend's memory through his own artwork. I think maybe the parent's reaction over the longterm when their child dies suddenly and unexpectedly from a tragedy that could have been prevented is that they do welcome knowing that others remember their child and still think of them.Ellen's death in that town was the subject of so much mindless gossip,it was gross.I overheard alot of it,nada talking to people.It was something of a scandal because apparently K.,the older girl who had been with Ellen when she drowned,had initially spoken to the police on her own steam with a complete fabrication: that she had seen a " man " abduct Ellen in his car and she even gave a description of the car and the state license plate.The police wasted resources and time searching for this non existent car and " abductor " until a witness came forward to tell them that she had in fact seen K. marching Ellen down the street in the direction of the local creek.K. then fessed up to having been with her but after her court hearing resulted in a " tragic accident " ruling,the rumors were that she was openly bragging about having gotten away with murder and laughing about what idiots the police were.The other rumor was that Ellen's mother had lost her mind and had been committed.The stuff I overheard was just disgusting and it was disgusting the way people seemed to be relishing an opportunity to gossip about the whole thing.Nada included!!!! What I don't think many people did,however,was to simply offer support to Ellen's family. My nada ran into Ellen's mother years later in a store and afterward Ellen's mother wrote her a letter just to tell her what a " shot in the arm " it had been to speak with nada and to know that nada still remembered them.She wrote about what her two surviving children were doing with their studies and said that she'd love to get together with nada some time for lunch.Nada never did get around to actually making a lunch date with her; she told me that she " got caught up " doing other things...but I now have that letter in my possession and what I am thinking of doing is sending Ellen's mother a letter of my own and leaving it up to her if she wants to reply.Nothing too long and involved,but something to let her know that I haven't forgotten her daughter and have fond memories of her as my first ever best friend.I'll think of some intro so it isn't just a letter coming out of the blue for no reason. Honestly,I'd LOVE to get together with Ellen's mother to talk about our memories of her...This thread has gone in the direction of me possibly writing a memoir of my childhood because a couple of people suggested it,not the first time someone has,so I'm sort of contemplating it.Ironically,fada died the same exact day as the day Ellen's body was found--and at the same time as when the fire stations in town had sounded their alarms to let the searchers know that Ellen's body had been found.Weird,huh? He has a scholarship in his name in town--I'm not sure how I'd put together a memorial but I'd like to know what Ellen's mother would think of establishing a scholarship fund in her name,such as one for a student who would like to pursue an art career,which is what Ellen wanted to do at the time when she died. We'll see!! Thanks so much again for sharing and for your suggestions ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Thank you,Girlscout! You're so sweet I agree with you--it's not necessary to make a big deal about how I walked away,but to simply apologize and to say something like: L.,I was very young and when you remembered that I had been friends with Ellen I just got overwhelmed and didn't know how to handle it.I hope you can forgive me. Thanks for your feedback Yes,having your best friend die when you're young can be life altering.That's so sad that your boyfriend's friend's parents lost two children to the same congenital disease.It seems to me that would be something exceptionally difficult to ever come to terms with as a parent.But it's lovely that your BF was able to honor his friend's memory through his own artwork. I think maybe the parent's reaction over the longterm when their child dies suddenly and unexpectedly from a tragedy that could have been prevented is that they do welcome knowing that others remember their child and still think of them.Ellen's death in that town was the subject of so much mindless gossip,it was gross.I overheard alot of it,nada talking to people.It was something of a scandal because apparently K.,the older girl who had been with Ellen when she drowned,had initially spoken to the police on her own steam with a complete fabrication: that she had seen a " man " abduct Ellen in his car and she even gave a description of the car and the state license plate.The police wasted resources and time searching for this non existent car and " abductor " until a witness came forward to tell them that she had in fact seen K. marching Ellen down the street in the direction of the local creek.K. then fessed up to having been with her but after her court hearing resulted in a " tragic accident " ruling,the rumors were that she was openly bragging about having gotten away with murder and laughing about what idiots the police were.The other rumor was that Ellen's mother had lost her mind and had been committed.The stuff I overheard was just disgusting and it was disgusting the way people seemed to be relishing an opportunity to gossip about the whole thing.Nada included!!!! What I don't think many people did,however,was to simply offer support to Ellen's family. My nada ran into Ellen's mother years later in a store and afterward Ellen's mother wrote her a letter just to tell her what a " shot in the arm " it had been to speak with nada and to know that nada still remembered them.She wrote about what her two surviving children were doing with their studies and said that she'd love to get together with nada some time for lunch.Nada never did get around to actually making a lunch date with her; she told me that she " got caught up " doing other things...but I now have that letter in my possession and what I am thinking of doing is sending Ellen's mother a letter of my own and leaving it up to her if she wants to reply.Nothing too long and involved,but something to let her know that I haven't forgotten her daughter and have fond memories of her as my first ever best friend.I'll think of some intro so it isn't just a letter coming out of the blue for no reason. Honestly,I'd LOVE to get together with Ellen's mother to talk about our memories of her...This thread has gone in the direction of me possibly writing a memoir of my childhood because a couple of people suggested it,not the first time someone has,so I'm sort of contemplating it.Ironically,fada died the same exact day as the day Ellen's body was found--and at the same time as when the fire stations in town had sounded their alarms to let the searchers know that Ellen's body had been found.Weird,huh? He has a scholarship in his name in town--I'm not sure how I'd put together a memorial but I'd like to know what Ellen's mother would think of establishing a scholarship fund in her name,such as one for a student who would like to pursue an art career,which is what Ellen wanted to do at the time when she died. We'll see!! Thanks so much again for sharing and for your suggestions ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 KT,I have no intentions of telling Ellen's mother that I had romantic feelings for her daughter.One: I wouldn't expect her to understand that.Two: I simply would not put that on her,to suddenly re-appear to this mother who lost her child with some weird thing about how our friendship was more of a romance for me.I think that would be selfish and even cruel. Many people have said to me that I " should " write a " book " about my life with nada and what I'm doing in this thread is musing aloud as to whether or not that would even be a viable project.It sounds interesting on the surface of it but in the details it's quite problematic. I have MASSIVE Survivor Guilt because I survived an attack from the same girl who probably murdered my friend Ellen.Added to that,there is,for me,a desire to make some meaning of my suffering at nada's hands and to help others in either the same situation or to help to raise awareness of the fact that " Medea mothers " like my nada really do exist and if the example of my own childhood could be used as a consciousness raiser,I'd share it publically. Your post illustrates to me that publishing my own story,from *my* perspective,*my* truth,could unfortunately have the effect of discrediting the child abuse awareness movement.Something that,obviously,I would never want to do. I don't know if you read the post I wrote previously in this thread about my concerns that my experience is too outside of the norm to serve as a " child abuse auotbiography " and that in order for my experience to be credible that I'd have to explain that these are the memories of a child with an IQ in an a-typical range. When I was five,I was functioning at the mental level of a twelve year old.So imagine a " first love " experience from a twelve year old's perspective and maybe it will make more sense why I said that as a five year old I had romantic feelings for Ellen.I don't know what you know about so called " profoundly gifted " children but the kinds of feelings I was having at that age weren't what a more typical five year old would experience and it's fairly common for " profoundly gifted " children to be able to care deeply about others at a level beyond the norm for their age group. I've given my relationship with Ellen much thought over the years and this isn't a case of having unexamined " attached romantic feelings " or " idealized love " for her memory.And I just want to make it very clear that I am not " sexualizing " a relationship between two children.I'm a sex abuse survivor and believe me I have had to think long and hard about issues of innocence and what that is.My relationship with Ellen occured just before the sex abuse began and for me there is a MAJOR " before and after " --the sense of personal freedom I had before the abuse began and the kind of self esteeem I had before the abuse began,and how these were shattered by the abuse.I am not,as an adult,looking back and seeing some sick " idealized love " that never existed or " sexualizing " our relationship.I'm not going to go into graphic details but trust me I am KEENLY aware as a sex abuse survivor of what is healthy sexuality and what is not.Being with Ellen was the first time in my life that I had a friend who really got me.This was mutual because Ellen was also not within in the norm.I can't even describe what it's like to not be on the same level as your peers,how depressingly alienating that is.It's surreal and nightmarish.Ellen,for example,wanted to be a conductor when she grew up.She was lucky because she had parents who nurtured her interests.If I had said I wanted to be a conductor,nada and fada would have just laughed at me.One of the games we played together was her being the symphony conductor while I played the parts of the various musicians in the symphony and we had so much fun and bonded so deeply...when before we met she had been playmates with kids who not only had no idea what a conductor is but didn't know what a symphony is,either--and if Ellen tried to share her interests with her so called " peers " she found herself alone with kids who had *no idea* what she was talking about.I had had this same problem trying to share my inner world with my own " peers " and so when we met it was absolutely fantastic to have a real friend on the same intellectual level.It was the first time in my life I could have a real conversation with another kid and we had the most heady,joyous conversations,really sharing our thoughts and really being heard and understood.She was the only person on the face of the planet,as far as I had experienced,who completely shared my utter disgust at that Nixon campaign ad with the little girl picking flowers in a field as a nuclear mushroom cloud rises up behind her--do you remember that ad? It pissed me off!!!! The naked attempt at emotional manipulation,using an innocent child to terrorize the electorate.We both thought that ad was evil.And we both thought a public service ad on tv about kids eating lead paint from peeling windowsills was really stupid: did they really think children are so stupid,to eat paint? Or the " like father,like son " public service ad: why didn't they have a " like mother,like daughter ad " to go along with it,didn't they think we're important too? It was such a RUSH to find someone who thought the way I did,who saw the world the way I did.It was incredible! We cherished one another and at the time we wanted to spend the rest of our lives together.If you met someone who really really got you,would you not cherish them? Ellen and I imagined together what our life would be like and planned how our house would be,where we'd live...We met in story hour at the library and when the children's librarian read the " Madeline " books we decided we wanted to live in Paris.I loved geography and so did she and yes we did have an awareness of France being another country and that it was across the ocean.She also wanted to be a painter and I thought I'd like to be a writer.We imagined having a house with a studio for her and a library for me.Nada did like classical music and had exposed me to Debussy,my favorite.Ellen was fond of Mozart,having heard that at home.The library lent out records and after story hour we picked out records to share with eachother,me turning her on to Debussy and Ravel,her turning me on to Mozart and Chopin...we promised to listen to the music at the same time of day,so we could be " together " .I remember sitting on the floor in my bedroom at age four listening to one of those records for one of our " music dates " with my eyes closed,imagining her across town listening to the music I had picked out for her and the music itself eclipsing all temporal distance,so it was like we were in the same exact spiritual space and just feeling as if I was basking in eternity and I was so blissed out I felt like my soul would just explode.On one of the Debussy albums there was a blurb about how he had been inspired to write his composition " La Mer " while looking out over a field of undulating grasses next to the parc in St Germain en Laye,where he lived,and Ellen and I promised eachother we'd go there some day to see what Debussy had seen,this " ocean of grass " ...and we thought maybe we'd have a house in St Germain en Laye...we could both read before the age of five.I taught myself to read at two.Anyway I ended up going to Paris and making that pilgrammage to St Germain en Laye alone,because she was dead.On my fifth birthday,at my party,we snuck off to my bedroom and had a secret ceremony pretending to get married and promising eachother that we would always love one another; previous to that Ellen herself had had an idea at the playground we played in to cut our arms with a piece of glass we found to mingle our blood to bind us.That was the last time I ever saw her alive,at my fifth birthday party.Being with her had opened up this entire universe of hope and possibility to me and our being together had been so wonderful,magical,beautiful.Obviously,I have no idea if that would have continued to be the case if she had lived.I had my first kiss with Ellen,in my bedroom the day we got " married " because we sealed it with a kiss--my experience isn't " normal " but that is what it was--and yes,it was like a romance.And to me,all the sweeter in my memory in comparison to the horror of being raped later.And having said all of that,I know we were kids.I have no idea if our affection or our relationship would have endured over the long term if Ellen had lived.Maybe it wouldn't have.But as it *is*,the time we had together was beautiful.I can listen to Debussy now--anything--and go right back to the feeling tone of those days and remember that ecstasy of possibility that I felt.I also remember the day,at three and a half,that I finally grasped what possibility *is*,standing one morning on the hill by the lake near my house listening to the church bells pealing across town and hearing the lowing of a tugboat on the river and it was Spring and a delicious soft blossomy breeze was blowing and I *knew* that there was more to the world than where I was and that I could go anywhere and my next thought was to share this idea with Ellen and...oh my god...life felt so beautiful... I am not seeking validation for how I perceived my relationship with Ellen by wanting to meet with her mother.Mainly,I want to know,if I can find out without causing her pain,what she believes about the circumstances of Ellen's death and if she has considered that she was probably murdered.Because if I ever wrote a memoir that would be a big part of it.It's complicated and I've gone over this in previous posts.I actually have SO MUCH in my head about Ellen that I'm going to have to censor if I meet her mother.I also want to get some sense of how her mother perceives Ellen's giftedness.Many questions but I know I will have to be discrete. As far as writing a memoir is concerned,I'm very concerned that my experience is so outside the norm that I am going to have reactions similar to your post.I grew up being misunderstood like this.The absolute last thing I'd want is for my story to discredit the child abuse awareness movement.When Dave Pelzer published " A Child Called It " ,about his own " Medea mother " ,it raised awareness,but his story was more of a " typical " child and the other thing is that he was rescued at twelve and placed into foster care so he had " evidence " of how bad it was to back up his allegations.I have the story of seventeen years of abuse from nada and fada that is just my own account.It's extreme like Pelzer's story but if writing about things like my experience with Ellen would discredit the rest of what I have to say...I felt really frustrated reading your post because you're talking about regular or average five year olds and then I wondered: where did I fail to dot the i's and cross the t's in my last post and do I have to go on and on and on with careful explanations and if I try condense a post down for the sake of brevity am I just going to be misunderstood...and I don't know if I can even explain my out of the norms world.I'm not angry with you,KT.I'm just dismayed,but not surprised,at how thoroughly you misunderstood me.I suspect that this is exactly what would happen if I wrote a memoir.My entire experience of life is different from most people: I examine why minutely and constantly,a million little whys...I do thank you for your feedback and I mean that sincerely because you've given me an idea for the fictional novel I'm plotting out at the moment that is very helpful,no kidding ..And is probably what I am going to end up writing instead of a memoir,so...thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 KT,I have no intentions of telling Ellen's mother that I had romantic feelings for her daughter.One: I wouldn't expect her to understand that.Two: I simply would not put that on her,to suddenly re-appear to this mother who lost her child with some weird thing about how our friendship was more of a romance for me.I think that would be selfish and even cruel. Many people have said to me that I " should " write a " book " about my life with nada and what I'm doing in this thread is musing aloud as to whether or not that would even be a viable project.It sounds interesting on the surface of it but in the details it's quite problematic. I have MASSIVE Survivor Guilt because I survived an attack from the same girl who probably murdered my friend Ellen.Added to that,there is,for me,a desire to make some meaning of my suffering at nada's hands and to help others in either the same situation or to help to raise awareness of the fact that " Medea mothers " like my nada really do exist and if the example of my own childhood could be used as a consciousness raiser,I'd share it publically. Your post illustrates to me that publishing my own story,from *my* perspective,*my* truth,could unfortunately have the effect of discrediting the child abuse awareness movement.Something that,obviously,I would never want to do. I don't know if you read the post I wrote previously in this thread about my concerns that my experience is too outside of the norm to serve as a " child abuse auotbiography " and that in order for my experience to be credible that I'd have to explain that these are the memories of a child with an IQ in an a-typical range. When I was five,I was functioning at the mental level of a twelve year old.So imagine a " first love " experience from a twelve year old's perspective and maybe it will make more sense why I said that as a five year old I had romantic feelings for Ellen.I don't know what you know about so called " profoundly gifted " children but the kinds of feelings I was having at that age weren't what a more typical five year old would experience and it's fairly common for " profoundly gifted " children to be able to care deeply about others at a level beyond the norm for their age group. I've given my relationship with Ellen much thought over the years and this isn't a case of having unexamined " attached romantic feelings " or " idealized love " for her memory.And I just want to make it very clear that I am not " sexualizing " a relationship between two children.I'm a sex abuse survivor and believe me I have had to think long and hard about issues of innocence and what that is.My relationship with Ellen occured just before the sex abuse began and for me there is a MAJOR " before and after " --the sense of personal freedom I had before the abuse began and the kind of self esteeem I had before the abuse began,and how these were shattered by the abuse.I am not,as an adult,looking back and seeing some sick " idealized love " that never existed or " sexualizing " our relationship.I'm not going to go into graphic details but trust me I am KEENLY aware as a sex abuse survivor of what is healthy sexuality and what is not.Being with Ellen was the first time in my life that I had a friend who really got me.This was mutual because Ellen was also not within in the norm.I can't even describe what it's like to not be on the same level as your peers,how depressingly alienating that is.It's surreal and nightmarish.Ellen,for example,wanted to be a conductor when she grew up.She was lucky because she had parents who nurtured her interests.If I had said I wanted to be a conductor,nada and fada would have just laughed at me.One of the games we played together was her being the symphony conductor while I played the parts of the various musicians in the symphony and we had so much fun and bonded so deeply...when before we met she had been playmates with kids who not only had no idea what a conductor is but didn't know what a symphony is,either--and if Ellen tried to share her interests with her so called " peers " she found herself alone with kids who had *no idea* what she was talking about.I had had this same problem trying to share my inner world with my own " peers " and so when we met it was absolutely fantastic to have a real friend on the same intellectual level.It was the first time in my life I could have a real conversation with another kid and we had the most heady,joyous conversations,really sharing our thoughts and really being heard and understood.She was the only person on the face of the planet,as far as I had experienced,who completely shared my utter disgust at that Nixon campaign ad with the little girl picking flowers in a field as a nuclear mushroom cloud rises up behind her--do you remember that ad? It pissed me off!!!! The naked attempt at emotional manipulation,using an innocent child to terrorize the electorate.We both thought that ad was evil.And we both thought a public service ad on tv about kids eating lead paint from peeling windowsills was really stupid: did they really think children are so stupid,to eat paint? Or the " like father,like son " public service ad: why didn't they have a " like mother,like daughter ad " to go along with it,didn't they think we're important too? It was such a RUSH to find someone who thought the way I did,who saw the world the way I did.It was incredible! We cherished one another and at the time we wanted to spend the rest of our lives together.If you met someone who really really got you,would you not cherish them? Ellen and I imagined together what our life would be like and planned how our house would be,where we'd live...We met in story hour at the library and when the children's librarian read the " Madeline " books we decided we wanted to live in Paris.I loved geography and so did she and yes we did have an awareness of France being another country and that it was across the ocean.She also wanted to be a painter and I thought I'd like to be a writer.We imagined having a house with a studio for her and a library for me.Nada did like classical music and had exposed me to Debussy,my favorite.Ellen was fond of Mozart,having heard that at home.The library lent out records and after story hour we picked out records to share with eachother,me turning her on to Debussy and Ravel,her turning me on to Mozart and Chopin...we promised to listen to the music at the same time of day,so we could be " together " .I remember sitting on the floor in my bedroom at age four listening to one of those records for one of our " music dates " with my eyes closed,imagining her across town listening to the music I had picked out for her and the music itself eclipsing all temporal distance,so it was like we were in the same exact spiritual space and just feeling as if I was basking in eternity and I was so blissed out I felt like my soul would just explode.On one of the Debussy albums there was a blurb about how he had been inspired to write his composition " La Mer " while looking out over a field of undulating grasses next to the parc in St Germain en Laye,where he lived,and Ellen and I promised eachother we'd go there some day to see what Debussy had seen,this " ocean of grass " ...and we thought maybe we'd have a house in St Germain en Laye...we could both read before the age of five.I taught myself to read at two.Anyway I ended up going to Paris and making that pilgrammage to St Germain en Laye alone,because she was dead.On my fifth birthday,at my party,we snuck off to my bedroom and had a secret ceremony pretending to get married and promising eachother that we would always love one another; previous to that Ellen herself had had an idea at the playground we played in to cut our arms with a piece of glass we found to mingle our blood to bind us.That was the last time I ever saw her alive,at my fifth birthday party.Being with her had opened up this entire universe of hope and possibility to me and our being together had been so wonderful,magical,beautiful.Obviously,I have no idea if that would have continued to be the case if she had lived.I had my first kiss with Ellen,in my bedroom the day we got " married " because we sealed it with a kiss--my experience isn't " normal " but that is what it was--and yes,it was like a romance.And to me,all the sweeter in my memory in comparison to the horror of being raped later.And having said all of that,I know we were kids.I have no idea if our affection or our relationship would have endured over the long term if Ellen had lived.Maybe it wouldn't have.But as it *is*,the time we had together was beautiful.I can listen to Debussy now--anything--and go right back to the feeling tone of those days and remember that ecstasy of possibility that I felt.I also remember the day,at three and a half,that I finally grasped what possibility *is*,standing one morning on the hill by the lake near my house listening to the church bells pealing across town and hearing the lowing of a tugboat on the river and it was Spring and a delicious soft blossomy breeze was blowing and I *knew* that there was more to the world than where I was and that I could go anywhere and my next thought was to share this idea with Ellen and...oh my god...life felt so beautiful... I am not seeking validation for how I perceived my relationship with Ellen by wanting to meet with her mother.Mainly,I want to know,if I can find out without causing her pain,what she believes about the circumstances of Ellen's death and if she has considered that she was probably murdered.Because if I ever wrote a memoir that would be a big part of it.It's complicated and I've gone over this in previous posts.I actually have SO MUCH in my head about Ellen that I'm going to have to censor if I meet her mother.I also want to get some sense of how her mother perceives Ellen's giftedness.Many questions but I know I will have to be discrete. As far as writing a memoir is concerned,I'm very concerned that my experience is so outside the norm that I am going to have reactions similar to your post.I grew up being misunderstood like this.The absolute last thing I'd want is for my story to discredit the child abuse awareness movement.When Dave Pelzer published " A Child Called It " ,about his own " Medea mother " ,it raised awareness,but his story was more of a " typical " child and the other thing is that he was rescued at twelve and placed into foster care so he had " evidence " of how bad it was to back up his allegations.I have the story of seventeen years of abuse from nada and fada that is just my own account.It's extreme like Pelzer's story but if writing about things like my experience with Ellen would discredit the rest of what I have to say...I felt really frustrated reading your post because you're talking about regular or average five year olds and then I wondered: where did I fail to dot the i's and cross the t's in my last post and do I have to go on and on and on with careful explanations and if I try condense a post down for the sake of brevity am I just going to be misunderstood...and I don't know if I can even explain my out of the norms world.I'm not angry with you,KT.I'm just dismayed,but not surprised,at how thoroughly you misunderstood me.I suspect that this is exactly what would happen if I wrote a memoir.My entire experience of life is different from most people: I examine why minutely and constantly,a million little whys...I do thank you for your feedback and I mean that sincerely because you've given me an idea for the fictional novel I'm plotting out at the moment that is very helpful,no kidding ..And is probably what I am going to end up writing instead of a memoir,so...thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 KT,I have no intentions of telling Ellen's mother that I had romantic feelings for her daughter.One: I wouldn't expect her to understand that.Two: I simply would not put that on her,to suddenly re-appear to this mother who lost her child with some weird thing about how our friendship was more of a romance for me.I think that would be selfish and even cruel. Many people have said to me that I " should " write a " book " about my life with nada and what I'm doing in this thread is musing aloud as to whether or not that would even be a viable project.It sounds interesting on the surface of it but in the details it's quite problematic. I have MASSIVE Survivor Guilt because I survived an attack from the same girl who probably murdered my friend Ellen.Added to that,there is,for me,a desire to make some meaning of my suffering at nada's hands and to help others in either the same situation or to help to raise awareness of the fact that " Medea mothers " like my nada really do exist and if the example of my own childhood could be used as a consciousness raiser,I'd share it publically. Your post illustrates to me that publishing my own story,from *my* perspective,*my* truth,could unfortunately have the effect of discrediting the child abuse awareness movement.Something that,obviously,I would never want to do. I don't know if you read the post I wrote previously in this thread about my concerns that my experience is too outside of the norm to serve as a " child abuse auotbiography " and that in order for my experience to be credible that I'd have to explain that these are the memories of a child with an IQ in an a-typical range. When I was five,I was functioning at the mental level of a twelve year old.So imagine a " first love " experience from a twelve year old's perspective and maybe it will make more sense why I said that as a five year old I had romantic feelings for Ellen.I don't know what you know about so called " profoundly gifted " children but the kinds of feelings I was having at that age weren't what a more typical five year old would experience and it's fairly common for " profoundly gifted " children to be able to care deeply about others at a level beyond the norm for their age group. I've given my relationship with Ellen much thought over the years and this isn't a case of having unexamined " attached romantic feelings " or " idealized love " for her memory.And I just want to make it very clear that I am not " sexualizing " a relationship between two children.I'm a sex abuse survivor and believe me I have had to think long and hard about issues of innocence and what that is.My relationship with Ellen occured just before the sex abuse began and for me there is a MAJOR " before and after " --the sense of personal freedom I had before the abuse began and the kind of self esteeem I had before the abuse began,and how these were shattered by the abuse.I am not,as an adult,looking back and seeing some sick " idealized love " that never existed or " sexualizing " our relationship.I'm not going to go into graphic details but trust me I am KEENLY aware as a sex abuse survivor of what is healthy sexuality and what is not.Being with Ellen was the first time in my life that I had a friend who really got me.This was mutual because Ellen was also not within in the norm.I can't even describe what it's like to not be on the same level as your peers,how depressingly alienating that is.It's surreal and nightmarish.Ellen,for example,wanted to be a conductor when she grew up.She was lucky because she had parents who nurtured her interests.If I had said I wanted to be a conductor,nada and fada would have just laughed at me.One of the games we played together was her being the symphony conductor while I played the parts of the various musicians in the symphony and we had so much fun and bonded so deeply...when before we met she had been playmates with kids who not only had no idea what a conductor is but didn't know what a symphony is,either--and if Ellen tried to share her interests with her so called " peers " she found herself alone with kids who had *no idea* what she was talking about.I had had this same problem trying to share my inner world with my own " peers " and so when we met it was absolutely fantastic to have a real friend on the same intellectual level.It was the first time in my life I could have a real conversation with another kid and we had the most heady,joyous conversations,really sharing our thoughts and really being heard and understood.She was the only person on the face of the planet,as far as I had experienced,who completely shared my utter disgust at that Nixon campaign ad with the little girl picking flowers in a field as a nuclear mushroom cloud rises up behind her--do you remember that ad? It pissed me off!!!! The naked attempt at emotional manipulation,using an innocent child to terrorize the electorate.We both thought that ad was evil.And we both thought a public service ad on tv about kids eating lead paint from peeling windowsills was really stupid: did they really think children are so stupid,to eat paint? Or the " like father,like son " public service ad: why didn't they have a " like mother,like daughter ad " to go along with it,didn't they think we're important too? It was such a RUSH to find someone who thought the way I did,who saw the world the way I did.It was incredible! We cherished one another and at the time we wanted to spend the rest of our lives together.If you met someone who really really got you,would you not cherish them? Ellen and I imagined together what our life would be like and planned how our house would be,where we'd live...We met in story hour at the library and when the children's librarian read the " Madeline " books we decided we wanted to live in Paris.I loved geography and so did she and yes we did have an awareness of France being another country and that it was across the ocean.She also wanted to be a painter and I thought I'd like to be a writer.We imagined having a house with a studio for her and a library for me.Nada did like classical music and had exposed me to Debussy,my favorite.Ellen was fond of Mozart,having heard that at home.The library lent out records and after story hour we picked out records to share with eachother,me turning her on to Debussy and Ravel,her turning me on to Mozart and Chopin...we promised to listen to the music at the same time of day,so we could be " together " .I remember sitting on the floor in my bedroom at age four listening to one of those records for one of our " music dates " with my eyes closed,imagining her across town listening to the music I had picked out for her and the music itself eclipsing all temporal distance,so it was like we were in the same exact spiritual space and just feeling as if I was basking in eternity and I was so blissed out I felt like my soul would just explode.On one of the Debussy albums there was a blurb about how he had been inspired to write his composition " La Mer " while looking out over a field of undulating grasses next to the parc in St Germain en Laye,where he lived,and Ellen and I promised eachother we'd go there some day to see what Debussy had seen,this " ocean of grass " ...and we thought maybe we'd have a house in St Germain en Laye...we could both read before the age of five.I taught myself to read at two.Anyway I ended up going to Paris and making that pilgrammage to St Germain en Laye alone,because she was dead.On my fifth birthday,at my party,we snuck off to my bedroom and had a secret ceremony pretending to get married and promising eachother that we would always love one another; previous to that Ellen herself had had an idea at the playground we played in to cut our arms with a piece of glass we found to mingle our blood to bind us.That was the last time I ever saw her alive,at my fifth birthday party.Being with her had opened up this entire universe of hope and possibility to me and our being together had been so wonderful,magical,beautiful.Obviously,I have no idea if that would have continued to be the case if she had lived.I had my first kiss with Ellen,in my bedroom the day we got " married " because we sealed it with a kiss--my experience isn't " normal " but that is what it was--and yes,it was like a romance.And to me,all the sweeter in my memory in comparison to the horror of being raped later.And having said all of that,I know we were kids.I have no idea if our affection or our relationship would have endured over the long term if Ellen had lived.Maybe it wouldn't have.But as it *is*,the time we had together was beautiful.I can listen to Debussy now--anything--and go right back to the feeling tone of those days and remember that ecstasy of possibility that I felt.I also remember the day,at three and a half,that I finally grasped what possibility *is*,standing one morning on the hill by the lake near my house listening to the church bells pealing across town and hearing the lowing of a tugboat on the river and it was Spring and a delicious soft blossomy breeze was blowing and I *knew* that there was more to the world than where I was and that I could go anywhere and my next thought was to share this idea with Ellen and...oh my god...life felt so beautiful... I am not seeking validation for how I perceived my relationship with Ellen by wanting to meet with her mother.Mainly,I want to know,if I can find out without causing her pain,what she believes about the circumstances of Ellen's death and if she has considered that she was probably murdered.Because if I ever wrote a memoir that would be a big part of it.It's complicated and I've gone over this in previous posts.I actually have SO MUCH in my head about Ellen that I'm going to have to censor if I meet her mother.I also want to get some sense of how her mother perceives Ellen's giftedness.Many questions but I know I will have to be discrete. As far as writing a memoir is concerned,I'm very concerned that my experience is so outside the norm that I am going to have reactions similar to your post.I grew up being misunderstood like this.The absolute last thing I'd want is for my story to discredit the child abuse awareness movement.When Dave Pelzer published " A Child Called It " ,about his own " Medea mother " ,it raised awareness,but his story was more of a " typical " child and the other thing is that he was rescued at twelve and placed into foster care so he had " evidence " of how bad it was to back up his allegations.I have the story of seventeen years of abuse from nada and fada that is just my own account.It's extreme like Pelzer's story but if writing about things like my experience with Ellen would discredit the rest of what I have to say...I felt really frustrated reading your post because you're talking about regular or average five year olds and then I wondered: where did I fail to dot the i's and cross the t's in my last post and do I have to go on and on and on with careful explanations and if I try condense a post down for the sake of brevity am I just going to be misunderstood...and I don't know if I can even explain my out of the norms world.I'm not angry with you,KT.I'm just dismayed,but not surprised,at how thoroughly you misunderstood me.I suspect that this is exactly what would happen if I wrote a memoir.My entire experience of life is different from most people: I examine why minutely and constantly,a million little whys...I do thank you for your feedback and I mean that sincerely because you've given me an idea for the fictional novel I'm plotting out at the moment that is very helpful,no kidding ..And is probably what I am going to end up writing instead of a memoir,so...thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Chistine, you wrote: Being with Ellen was the first time in my life that I had a friend who really got me. I don't find this strange at all, in fact some of the most romantic books and movies use this premise that adults should love as innocently as children, and that the love between children is the purest of all, and what romantic lovers should aspire to. Having been married for thirty years I know that love deepens and changes and my love for my husband becomes less concerned with the physical and more with the purer aspect of true friendship, though when I see him, I still see " my boyfriend " of thirty-five years ago but it is a much deeper,purer feeling. I also remember " marrying my neighbor " Christy at the age of five and remember kissing. I think I was the groom, anyway we were at the top of the porch and I picked her up to carry her over the threshold and we both fell from the top of the porch down a flight of concrete steps rolling over and over, after that the marriage was annulled. By all means write your story, if you really feel you want it to come out on paper. Publishers are always looking for a different twist for books and since yours is genuine it may be a beautiful story. Quite frankly I have no desire to read the lovely bones but is touted as a beautiful story, just because I can't receive that book in the proper spirit doesn't mean it shouldn't have been written. Even if you didn't get it published it might help you heal. As KO's we all have to learn we can't control what others think of us. It's your story and if you want to put it on paper do not worry about what others think. And who knows how many KO's you might help on the road to healing? And to quote Doug sort of (my apologies if I don't get it exactly right) " aren't we all on here to help us heal ourselves? " Good luck with your writing. Kay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Just wanted to give you a hug (((((()))))) This is so sad & touching. Mia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Just wanted to give you a hug (((((()))))) This is so sad & touching. Mia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Just wanted to give you a hug (((((()))))) This is so sad & touching. Mia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Thank you, Kay Your " marriage annulment " made me laugh!!! I've never read " The Lovely Bones " either because it's about a murder victim,isn't it? Or a dead person's narrative.Anyway not something I felt much like reading.At times I will avoid a book like this and then when I do get around to reading it,I enjoy it and then I wonder why I didn't read it sooner... " As KO's we all have to learn we can't control what others think of us " --AMEN,sister!!!! I am still working on that.A thorny issue for me! There was a time in my life when I really didn't give a GD but recently I've become more sensitive or insecure.I'm not sure why. If I knew that I had helped someone else I could definitely bear being doubted by others. Yes--we are all here to help heal ourselves and I thank you so much for your kind encouragement! > > Being with Ellen was the first time in my life that I had a friend who really got me. > > I don't find this strange at all, in fact some of the most romantic books and movies use this premise that adults should love as innocently as children, and that the love between children is the purest of all, and what romantic lovers should aspire to. Having been married for thirty years I know that love deepens and changes and my love for my husband becomes less concerned with the physical and more with the purer aspect of true friendship, though when I see him, I still see " my boyfriend " of thirty-five years ago but it is a much deeper,purer feeling. I also remember " marrying my neighbor " Christy at the age of five and remember kissing. I think I was the groom, anyway we were at the top of the porch and I picked her up to carry her over the threshold and we both fell from the top of the porch down a flight of concrete steps rolling over and over, after that the marriage was annulled. By all means write your story, if you really feel you want it to come out on paper. Publishers are always looking for a different twist for books and since yours is genuine it may be a beautiful story. Quite frankly I have no desire to read the lovely bones but is touted as a beautiful story, just because I can't receive that book in the proper spirit doesn't mean it shouldn't have been written. Even if you didn't get it published it might help you heal. s KAO's we all have to learn we can't control what others think of us. It's your story and if you want to put it on paper do not worry about what others think. And who knows how many KO's you might help on the road to healing? And to quote Doug sort of (my apologies if I don't get it exactly right) " aren't we all on here to help us heal ourselves? " > Good luck with your writing. > Kay > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Hola,que tal? Yenaine Do you remember the Gipsy Kings? Did you guys have them in your neck of the woods? Anyway I'm listening to their song " Quiero Saber " ,it's very pretty. I know that I have to decide for myself.I like to think aloud and get feedback if it's something that I have so many conflicting feelings about doing,such as contacting Ellen's mother,but I take sole responsibility for whatever conclusions I come to I think my best course of action here is to write her a letter since a telephone call could possibly put her on the spot.So I'll leave it up to her to reply or not.I know that I can't predict the outcome or control it...I wish I could though!!!!! All I can do is put a bit of influence in the direction I want it to go in.... I have good intentions and you know I tend to usually have the best intentions in the hopefully naive way of uncalculating people...and in my memory of her,Ellen's mother was similarly nice,so we'll see what happens. So I'll just do it and try not to torment myself with all the possible scenarios. Muchas gracias por todos vuestros comentarios y pensamientos > > Hola ! > Every person is different and react differently. So it is hard to me to say what would be the proper way to contact Ellen's mother. I would make it simple , honest , respectful , loving and with good intent (leaving out all the details which could disturb her to much). There is no way to predict what will happen ( not with her and not with you) doesn't matter how many scenarios you will imagine.. It is like trying to figure out if it is ok for you and for others to walk out from your flat in the morning - life always surprises you :-)) the most importnat is to fallow your true self and to try to do everything with your best intention :-) > But whatever will happen - it would probably unblock some of your stuck energy. But these are my thoughts you have to think and decided for yourselves. > Yenaine > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Hola,que tal? Yenaine Do you remember the Gipsy Kings? Did you guys have them in your neck of the woods? Anyway I'm listening to their song " Quiero Saber " ,it's very pretty. I know that I have to decide for myself.I like to think aloud and get feedback if it's something that I have so many conflicting feelings about doing,such as contacting Ellen's mother,but I take sole responsibility for whatever conclusions I come to I think my best course of action here is to write her a letter since a telephone call could possibly put her on the spot.So I'll leave it up to her to reply or not.I know that I can't predict the outcome or control it...I wish I could though!!!!! All I can do is put a bit of influence in the direction I want it to go in.... I have good intentions and you know I tend to usually have the best intentions in the hopefully naive way of uncalculating people...and in my memory of her,Ellen's mother was similarly nice,so we'll see what happens. So I'll just do it and try not to torment myself with all the possible scenarios. Muchas gracias por todos vuestros comentarios y pensamientos > > Hola ! > Every person is different and react differently. So it is hard to me to say what would be the proper way to contact Ellen's mother. I would make it simple , honest , respectful , loving and with good intent (leaving out all the details which could disturb her to much). There is no way to predict what will happen ( not with her and not with you) doesn't matter how many scenarios you will imagine.. It is like trying to figure out if it is ok for you and for others to walk out from your flat in the morning - life always surprises you :-)) the most importnat is to fallow your true self and to try to do everything with your best intention :-) > But whatever will happen - it would probably unblock some of your stuck energy. But these are my thoughts you have to think and decided for yourselves. > Yenaine > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.