Re: Frustrated With the BPD Books that say....

[Guest guest]

Which books say *that!?* I'd like to know so that I can read them and recommend

that they be avoided as abusive to the KOs of abusive pd parents!

-Annie

>

> The non-BPD should NEVER set boundaries and NEVER use tough love because you

are only wounding someone who cannot help it. So, this approach to me is

abusive. To me, it is the same as telling the victim of rape to shut up and

color and let her attacker do it over and over again and she isn't entitled to

rights or safety or sanity because the rapist obviously has a disorder.

>

> Granted, BPDs have it tough - no doubt about it but to put more blame on the

non-BPD than the BPD already has and make it absolutely impossible for them to

protect themselves just makes me incredulous. I wonder if those individuals

have ever suffered physical abuse from nada because they didn't tip toe quietly

enough through the house or shred them verbally because they left a speck on the

dish they just washed at 8 years old or humilated and invalidated them when they

cried out to another adult for help from abuse and nada intervened and convinced

that adult that they were just a sympathy seeking pathological liar. To me,

such actions define abuse and abusers do not get to continue to abuse their

victims. By requiring that we must stand still and not take insult (when we try

but always do at some level) we just create more psychoses for the psychiatrists

to untangle. I have suffered Post-Traumatic Event Syndrome nada episodes

playing over and over in my head, hyper-vigilant thoughts for months, never

knowing from which direction the next attack was going to come. My only safety

and sanity was to get away from her so I could be emotionally safe, where her

energy vampirism could not deplete me, where her words could no longer harm me.

I suffered guilt for the longest time and I read these words by an author today

- " You cannot set boundaries with a BPD because they don't work and it will just

hurt them further. " OMG! WTF? Seriously?! Wow, REALLY? You just said that?

Okay, so back to the rapist...he might be mentally and physically harmed in jail

so you bad evil victims, just shut up and color, okay?

>

> Okay, I'm not really mad but I'm frustrated that just because my nada has a

personality disorder, I'm supposed to excuse her insidious, painful, vile and

vengeful emotional and verbal abuse? I don't care who you are or what you

have...I've got a lot on my plate being a single mother of 4 kids, a demanding

job and lots of plates always in the air. I will not tolerate any form of abuse

in my life for any reason.

>

> What kind of insensitive person would require a victim to shut up and color?

I don't get it. BPD diagnosis is not an excuse and a shield to hide abuse

behind. Just like alcoholism...when the alcoholics get tired of the

consequences in their lives, they are told to go get help and family members are

never manipulated by programs into staying when they've been abused or hurt.

Alcoholism is also called a disease and it causes great harm to its host but is

no excuse for bad behavior. Lots of personality disorders exist but should not

excuse people from harm. Okay - so wait, I have a strong bill-paying aversion

that runs deep and connects to a deep seated childhood fear of poverty and so

must repeatedly scream at, threaten and abuse my creditors even though I charge

my accounts up like the best of them. How long do you think my case will last

in court? Get help and knock off your bad behavior is going to be the outcome.

After lawsuits for bad behavior, of course.

>

> I am empathetic towards those with personality disorders, absolutely and I

include so many in my prayers every night but I get to make choices in life

despite my fears just as they do. Abusive behavior is NOT okay. Using a

diagnosis to excuse bad behavior, is not okay. BPDs should be understood,

absolutely, not engaging in behavior that would be purposely hurtful to them -

right! I get that, no way, wouldn't even dream of it but if setting a boundary

to protect myself is necessary in my opinion, it's done and any pain I cause is

not intentional. It is a matter of emotional self-preservation.

>

> Okay, my soap box is back under the bed now. LOL

>

[Guest guest]

She was the mother, you were the child. So by default she should have cared

for you and nurtured you. In a phrase - you are right and she is wrong.

My T and I are just this week delving into what people are evil. My nada is.

For sure. Diagnosed without a doubt. She doesn't get my empathy.

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 5:24 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Which books say *that!?* I'd like to know so that I can read them and

> recommend that they be avoided as abusive to the KOs of abusive pd parents!

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > The non-BPD should NEVER set boundaries and NEVER use tough love because

> you are only wounding someone who cannot help it. So, this approach to me is

> abusive. To me, it is the same as telling the victim of rape to shut up and

> color and let her attacker do it over and over again and she isn't entitled

> to rights or safety or sanity because the rapist obviously has a disorder.

> >

> > Granted, BPDs have it tough - no doubt about it but to put more blame on

> the non-BPD than the BPD already has and make it absolutely impossible for

> them to protect themselves just makes me incredulous. I wonder if those

> individuals have ever suffered physical abuse from nada because they didn't

> tip toe quietly enough through the house or shred them verbally because they

> left a speck on the dish they just washed at 8 years old or humilated and

> invalidated them when they cried out to another adult for help from abuse

> and nada intervened and convinced that adult that they were just a sympathy

> seeking pathological liar. To me, such actions define abuse and abusers do

> not get to continue to abuse their victims. By requiring that we must stand

> still and not take insult (when we try but always do at some level) we just

> create more psychoses for the psychiatrists to untangle. I have suffered

> Post-Traumatic Event Syndrome nada episodes playing over and over in my

> head, hyper-vigilant thoughts for months, never knowing from which direction

> the next attack was going to come. My only safety and sanity was to get away

> from her so I could be emotionally safe, where her energy vampirism could

> not deplete me, where her words could no longer harm me. I suffered guilt

> for the longest time and I read these words by an author today - " You cannot

> set boundaries with a BPD because they don't work and it will just hurt them

> further. " OMG! WTF? Seriously?! Wow, REALLY? You just said that? Okay, so

> back to the rapist...he might be mentally and physically harmed in jail so

> you bad evil victims, just shut up and color, okay?

> >

> > Okay, I'm not really mad but I'm frustrated that just because my nada has

> a personality disorder, I'm supposed to excuse her insidious, painful, vile

> and vengeful emotional and verbal abuse? I don't care who you are or what

> you have...I've got a lot on my plate being a single mother of 4 kids, a

> demanding job and lots of plates always in the air. I will not tolerate any

> form of abuse in my life for any reason.

> >

> > What kind of insensitive person would require a victim to shut up and

> color? I don't get it. BPD diagnosis is not an excuse and a shield to hide

> abuse behind. Just like alcoholism...when the alcoholics get tired of the

> consequences in their lives, they are told to go get help and family members

> are never manipulated by programs into staying when they've been abused or

> hurt. Alcoholism is also called a disease and it causes great harm to its

> host but is no excuse for bad behavior. Lots of personality disorders exist

> but should not excuse people from harm. Okay - so wait, I have a strong

> bill-paying aversion that runs deep and connects to a deep seated childhood

> fear of poverty and so must repeatedly scream at, threaten and abuse my

> creditors even though I charge my accounts up like the best of them. How

> long do you think my case will last in court? Get help and knock off your

> bad behavior is going to be the outcome. After lawsuits for bad behavior, of

> course.

> >

> > I am empathetic towards those with personality disorders, absolutely and

> I include so many in my prayers every night but I get to make choices in

> life despite my fears just as they do. Abusive behavior is NOT okay. Using a

> diagnosis to excuse bad behavior, is not okay. BPDs should be understood,

> absolutely, not engaging in behavior that would be purposely hurtful to them

> - right! I get that, no way, wouldn't even dream of it but if setting a

> boundary to protect myself is necessary in my opinion, it's done and any

> pain I cause is not intentional. It is a matter of emotional

> self-preservation.

> >

> > Okay, my soap box is back under the bed now. LOL

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

She was the mother, you were the child. So by default she should have cared

for you and nurtured you. In a phrase - you are right and she is wrong.

My T and I are just this week delving into what people are evil. My nada is.

For sure. Diagnosed without a doubt. She doesn't get my empathy.

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 5:24 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Which books say *that!?* I'd like to know so that I can read them and

> recommend that they be avoided as abusive to the KOs of abusive pd parents!

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > The non-BPD should NEVER set boundaries and NEVER use tough love because

> you are only wounding someone who cannot help it. So, this approach to me is

> abusive. To me, it is the same as telling the victim of rape to shut up and

> color and let her attacker do it over and over again and she isn't entitled

> to rights or safety or sanity because the rapist obviously has a disorder.

> >

> > Granted, BPDs have it tough - no doubt about it but to put more blame on

> the non-BPD than the BPD already has and make it absolutely impossible for

> them to protect themselves just makes me incredulous. I wonder if those

> individuals have ever suffered physical abuse from nada because they didn't

> tip toe quietly enough through the house or shred them verbally because they

> left a speck on the dish they just washed at 8 years old or humilated and

> invalidated them when they cried out to another adult for help from abuse

> and nada intervened and convinced that adult that they were just a sympathy

> seeking pathological liar. To me, such actions define abuse and abusers do

> not get to continue to abuse their victims. By requiring that we must stand

> still and not take insult (when we try but always do at some level) we just

> create more psychoses for the psychiatrists to untangle. I have suffered

> Post-Traumatic Event Syndrome nada episodes playing over and over in my

> head, hyper-vigilant thoughts for months, never knowing from which direction

> the next attack was going to come. My only safety and sanity was to get away

> from her so I could be emotionally safe, where her energy vampirism could

> not deplete me, where her words could no longer harm me. I suffered guilt

> for the longest time and I read these words by an author today - " You cannot

> set boundaries with a BPD because they don't work and it will just hurt them

> further. " OMG! WTF? Seriously?! Wow, REALLY? You just said that? Okay, so

> back to the rapist...he might be mentally and physically harmed in jail so

> you bad evil victims, just shut up and color, okay?

> >

> > Okay, I'm not really mad but I'm frustrated that just because my nada has

> a personality disorder, I'm supposed to excuse her insidious, painful, vile

> and vengeful emotional and verbal abuse? I don't care who you are or what

> you have...I've got a lot on my plate being a single mother of 4 kids, a

> demanding job and lots of plates always in the air. I will not tolerate any

> form of abuse in my life for any reason.

> >

> > What kind of insensitive person would require a victim to shut up and

> color? I don't get it. BPD diagnosis is not an excuse and a shield to hide

> abuse behind. Just like alcoholism...when the alcoholics get tired of the

> consequences in their lives, they are told to go get help and family members

> are never manipulated by programs into staying when they've been abused or

> hurt. Alcoholism is also called a disease and it causes great harm to its

> host but is no excuse for bad behavior. Lots of personality disorders exist

> but should not excuse people from harm. Okay - so wait, I have a strong

> bill-paying aversion that runs deep and connects to a deep seated childhood

> fear of poverty and so must repeatedly scream at, threaten and abuse my

> creditors even though I charge my accounts up like the best of them. How

> long do you think my case will last in court? Get help and knock off your

> bad behavior is going to be the outcome. After lawsuits for bad behavior, of

> course.

> >

> > I am empathetic towards those with personality disorders, absolutely and

> I include so many in my prayers every night but I get to make choices in

> life despite my fears just as they do. Abusive behavior is NOT okay. Using a

> diagnosis to excuse bad behavior, is not okay. BPDs should be understood,

> absolutely, not engaging in behavior that would be purposely hurtful to them

> - right! I get that, no way, wouldn't even dream of it but if setting a

> boundary to protect myself is necessary in my opinion, it's done and any

> pain I cause is not intentional. It is a matter of emotional

> self-preservation.

> >

> > Okay, my soap box is back under the bed now. LOL

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

She was the mother, you were the child. So by default she should have cared

for you and nurtured you. In a phrase - you are right and she is wrong.

My T and I are just this week delving into what people are evil. My nada is.

For sure. Diagnosed without a doubt. She doesn't get my empathy.

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 5:24 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Which books say *that!?* I'd like to know so that I can read them and

> recommend that they be avoided as abusive to the KOs of abusive pd parents!

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > The non-BPD should NEVER set boundaries and NEVER use tough love because

> you are only wounding someone who cannot help it. So, this approach to me is

> abusive. To me, it is the same as telling the victim of rape to shut up and

> color and let her attacker do it over and over again and she isn't entitled

> to rights or safety or sanity because the rapist obviously has a disorder.

> >

> > Granted, BPDs have it tough - no doubt about it but to put more blame on

> the non-BPD than the BPD already has and make it absolutely impossible for

> them to protect themselves just makes me incredulous. I wonder if those

> individuals have ever suffered physical abuse from nada because they didn't

> tip toe quietly enough through the house or shred them verbally because they

> left a speck on the dish they just washed at 8 years old or humilated and

> invalidated them when they cried out to another adult for help from abuse

> and nada intervened and convinced that adult that they were just a sympathy

> seeking pathological liar. To me, such actions define abuse and abusers do

> not get to continue to abuse their victims. By requiring that we must stand

> still and not take insult (when we try but always do at some level) we just

> create more psychoses for the psychiatrists to untangle. I have suffered

> Post-Traumatic Event Syndrome nada episodes playing over and over in my

> head, hyper-vigilant thoughts for months, never knowing from which direction

> the next attack was going to come. My only safety and sanity was to get away

> from her so I could be emotionally safe, where her energy vampirism could

> not deplete me, where her words could no longer harm me. I suffered guilt

> for the longest time and I read these words by an author today - " You cannot

> set boundaries with a BPD because they don't work and it will just hurt them

> further. " OMG! WTF? Seriously?! Wow, REALLY? You just said that? Okay, so

> back to the rapist...he might be mentally and physically harmed in jail so

> you bad evil victims, just shut up and color, okay?

> >

> > Okay, I'm not really mad but I'm frustrated that just because my nada has

> a personality disorder, I'm supposed to excuse her insidious, painful, vile

> and vengeful emotional and verbal abuse? I don't care who you are or what

> you have...I've got a lot on my plate being a single mother of 4 kids, a

> demanding job and lots of plates always in the air. I will not tolerate any

> form of abuse in my life for any reason.

> >

> > What kind of insensitive person would require a victim to shut up and

> color? I don't get it. BPD diagnosis is not an excuse and a shield to hide

> abuse behind. Just like alcoholism...when the alcoholics get tired of the

> consequences in their lives, they are told to go get help and family members

> are never manipulated by programs into staying when they've been abused or

> hurt. Alcoholism is also called a disease and it causes great harm to its

> host but is no excuse for bad behavior. Lots of personality disorders exist

> but should not excuse people from harm. Okay - so wait, I have a strong

> bill-paying aversion that runs deep and connects to a deep seated childhood

> fear of poverty and so must repeatedly scream at, threaten and abuse my

> creditors even though I charge my accounts up like the best of them. How

> long do you think my case will last in court? Get help and knock off your

> bad behavior is going to be the outcome. After lawsuits for bad behavior, of

> course.

> >

> > I am empathetic towards those with personality disorders, absolutely and

> I include so many in my prayers every night but I get to make choices in

> life despite my fears just as they do. Abusive behavior is NOT okay. Using a

> diagnosis to excuse bad behavior, is not okay. BPDs should be understood,

> absolutely, not engaging in behavior that would be purposely hurtful to them

> - right! I get that, no way, wouldn't even dream of it but if setting a

> boundary to protect myself is necessary in my opinion, it's done and any

> pain I cause is not intentional. It is a matter of emotional

> self-preservation.

> >

> > Okay, my soap box is back under the bed now. LOL

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I can't remember the title, nor the complete name. It was Polacek or

something like that. I also saw lots of youtube videos mentioning the same

thing. (Which, I get - for a BPD that is not in treatment - if you even

insinuate that you will not talk to them until they can treat you more

respectfully or discuss in a civil tone - you'd be setting off WWIII). I would

like to assume positive intent but helping the BPD at the cost of sending

someone else into PTSD, sorry, that's a non-starter and the ones recommending

that the non-BPDs just suck it up and realize it isn't about you need to

understand that only goes so far. Until we are ascended masters in this frame

(which most of us will never be), there is only a small percent of us that could

withstand continual abuse and be totally okay with it (because we know this is

just a play and someone else's psychology has nothing to do with us). It's

never okay and there is no excuse for bad behavior...if it's caused by an

illness, treatment is the best course to keep the disordered from remaining in a

perpetual state of consequence. For the non-BPD, whatever healthy path chosen

to emotionally protect self--LC, NC or sheer white-knuckling compassion and

understanding - it's a choice, not is wrong or right. Every situation is

different.

> >

> > The non-BPD should NEVER set boundaries and NEVER use tough love because you

are only wounding someone who cannot help it. So, this approach to me is

abusive. To me, it is the same as telling the victim of rape to shut up and

color and let her attacker do it over and over again and she isn't entitled to

rights or safety or sanity because the rapist obviously has a disorder.

> >

> > Granted, BPDs have it tough - no doubt about it but to put more blame on the

non-BPD than the BPD already has and make it absolutely impossible for them to

protect themselves just makes me incredulous. I wonder if those individuals

have ever suffered physical abuse from nada because they didn't tip toe quietly

enough through the house or shred them verbally because they left a speck on the

dish they just washed at 8 years old or humilated and invalidated them when they

cried out to another adult for help from abuse and nada intervened and convinced

that adult that they were just a sympathy seeking pathological liar. To me,

such actions define abuse and abusers do not get to continue to abuse their

victims. By requiring that we must stand still and not take insult (when we try

but always do at some level) we just create more psychoses for the psychiatrists

to untangle. I have suffered Post-Traumatic Event Syndrome nada episodes

playing over and over in my head, hyper-vigilant thoughts for months, never

knowing from which direction the next attack was going to come. My only safety

and sanity was to get away from her so I could be emotionally safe, where her

energy vampirism could not deplete me, where her words could no longer harm me.

I suffered guilt for the longest time and I read these words by an author today

- " You cannot set boundaries with a BPD because they don't work and it will just

hurt them further. " OMG! WTF? Seriously?! Wow, REALLY? You just said that?

Okay, so back to the rapist...he might be mentally and physically harmed in jail

so you bad evil victims, just shut up and color, okay?

> >

> > Okay, I'm not really mad but I'm frustrated that just because my nada has a

personality disorder, I'm supposed to excuse her insidious, painful, vile and

vengeful emotional and verbal abuse? I don't care who you are or what you

have...I've got a lot on my plate being a single mother of 4 kids, a demanding

job and lots of plates always in the air. I will not tolerate any form of abuse

in my life for any reason.

> >

> > What kind of insensitive person would require a victim to shut up and color?

I don't get it. BPD diagnosis is not an excuse and a shield to hide abuse

behind. Just like alcoholism...when the alcoholics get tired of the

consequences in their lives, they are told to go get help and family members are

never manipulated by programs into staying when they've been abused or hurt.

Alcoholism is also called a disease and it causes great harm to its host but is

no excuse for bad behavior. Lots of personality disorders exist but should not

excuse people from harm. Okay - so wait, I have a strong bill-paying aversion

that runs deep and connects to a deep seated childhood fear of poverty and so

must repeatedly scream at, threaten and abuse my creditors even though I charge

my accounts up like the best of them. How long do you think my case will last

in court? Get help and knock off your bad behavior is going to be the outcome.

After lawsuits for bad behavior, of course.

> >

> > I am empathetic towards those with personality disorders, absolutely and I

include so many in my prayers every night but I get to make choices in life

despite my fears just as they do. Abusive behavior is NOT okay. Using a

diagnosis to excuse bad behavior, is not okay. BPDs should be understood,

absolutely, not engaging in behavior that would be purposely hurtful to them -

right! I get that, no way, wouldn't even dream of it but if setting a boundary

to protect myself is necessary in my opinion, it's done and any pain I cause is

not intentional. It is a matter of emotional self-preservation.

> >

> > Okay, my soap box is back under the bed now. LOL

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I can't remember the title, nor the complete name. It was Polacek or

something like that. I also saw lots of youtube videos mentioning the same

thing. (Which, I get - for a BPD that is not in treatment - if you even

insinuate that you will not talk to them until they can treat you more

respectfully or discuss in a civil tone - you'd be setting off WWIII). I would

like to assume positive intent but helping the BPD at the cost of sending

someone else into PTSD, sorry, that's a non-starter and the ones recommending

that the non-BPDs just suck it up and realize it isn't about you need to

understand that only goes so far. Until we are ascended masters in this frame

(which most of us will never be), there is only a small percent of us that could

withstand continual abuse and be totally okay with it (because we know this is

just a play and someone else's psychology has nothing to do with us). It's

never okay and there is no excuse for bad behavior...if it's caused by an

illness, treatment is the best course to keep the disordered from remaining in a

perpetual state of consequence. For the non-BPD, whatever healthy path chosen

to emotionally protect self--LC, NC or sheer white-knuckling compassion and

understanding - it's a choice, not is wrong or right. Every situation is

different.

> >

> > The non-BPD should NEVER set boundaries and NEVER use tough love because you

are only wounding someone who cannot help it. So, this approach to me is

abusive. To me, it is the same as telling the victim of rape to shut up and

color and let her attacker do it over and over again and she isn't entitled to

rights or safety or sanity because the rapist obviously has a disorder.

> >

> > Granted, BPDs have it tough - no doubt about it but to put more blame on the

non-BPD than the BPD already has and make it absolutely impossible for them to

protect themselves just makes me incredulous. I wonder if those individuals

have ever suffered physical abuse from nada because they didn't tip toe quietly

enough through the house or shred them verbally because they left a speck on the

dish they just washed at 8 years old or humilated and invalidated them when they

cried out to another adult for help from abuse and nada intervened and convinced

that adult that they were just a sympathy seeking pathological liar. To me,

such actions define abuse and abusers do not get to continue to abuse their

victims. By requiring that we must stand still and not take insult (when we try

but always do at some level) we just create more psychoses for the psychiatrists

to untangle. I have suffered Post-Traumatic Event Syndrome nada episodes

playing over and over in my head, hyper-vigilant thoughts for months, never

knowing from which direction the next attack was going to come. My only safety

and sanity was to get away from her so I could be emotionally safe, where her

energy vampirism could not deplete me, where her words could no longer harm me.

I suffered guilt for the longest time and I read these words by an author today

- " You cannot set boundaries with a BPD because they don't work and it will just

hurt them further. " OMG! WTF? Seriously?! Wow, REALLY? You just said that?

Okay, so back to the rapist...he might be mentally and physically harmed in jail

so you bad evil victims, just shut up and color, okay?

> >

> > Okay, I'm not really mad but I'm frustrated that just because my nada has a

personality disorder, I'm supposed to excuse her insidious, painful, vile and

vengeful emotional and verbal abuse? I don't care who you are or what you

have...I've got a lot on my plate being a single mother of 4 kids, a demanding

job and lots of plates always in the air. I will not tolerate any form of abuse

in my life for any reason.

> >

> > What kind of insensitive person would require a victim to shut up and color?

I don't get it. BPD diagnosis is not an excuse and a shield to hide abuse

behind. Just like alcoholism...when the alcoholics get tired of the

consequences in their lives, they are told to go get help and family members are

never manipulated by programs into staying when they've been abused or hurt.

Alcoholism is also called a disease and it causes great harm to its host but is

no excuse for bad behavior. Lots of personality disorders exist but should not

excuse people from harm. Okay - so wait, I have a strong bill-paying aversion

that runs deep and connects to a deep seated childhood fear of poverty and so

must repeatedly scream at, threaten and abuse my creditors even though I charge

my accounts up like the best of them. How long do you think my case will last

in court? Get help and knock off your bad behavior is going to be the outcome.

After lawsuits for bad behavior, of course.

> >

> > I am empathetic towards those with personality disorders, absolutely and I

include so many in my prayers every night but I get to make choices in life

despite my fears just as they do. Abusive behavior is NOT okay. Using a

diagnosis to excuse bad behavior, is not okay. BPDs should be understood,

absolutely, not engaging in behavior that would be purposely hurtful to them -

right! I get that, no way, wouldn't even dream of it but if setting a boundary

to protect myself is necessary in my opinion, it's done and any pain I cause is

not intentional. It is a matter of emotional self-preservation.

> >

> > Okay, my soap box is back under the bed now. LOL

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Girlscout! As a mother, I focus on my role to care for my children and

be the best mother I can be. I know that my nada was the best mother she was

capable of or interested in being. It wasn't okay with me but you can't go back

in time and change things and you certainly don't have to succumb to abuse today

out of guilt anyone tries to lay upon you. LC and NC are last resorts we all

come to and with good reason. Guilt is tough enough. Don't need it from

insensitive authors along with family members. LOL

Many blessings to you!

> > >

> > > The non-BPD should NEVER set boundaries and NEVER use tough love because

> > you are only wounding someone who cannot help it. So, this approach to me is

> > abusive. To me, it is the same as telling the victim of rape to shut up and

> > color and let her attacker do it over and over again and she isn't entitled

> > to rights or safety or sanity because the rapist obviously has a disorder.

> > >

> > > Granted, BPDs have it tough - no doubt about it but to put more blame on

> > the non-BPD than the BPD already has and make it absolutely impossible for

> > them to protect themselves just makes me incredulous. I wonder if those

> > individuals have ever suffered physical abuse from nada because they didn't

> > tip toe quietly enough through the house or shred them verbally because they

> > left a speck on the dish they just washed at 8 years old or humilated and

> > invalidated them when they cried out to another adult for help from abuse

> > and nada intervened and convinced that adult that they were just a sympathy

> > seeking pathological liar. To me, such actions define abuse and abusers do

> > not get to continue to abuse their victims. By requiring that we must stand

> > still and not take insult (when we try but always do at some level) we just

> > create more psychoses for the psychiatrists to untangle. I have suffered

> > Post-Traumatic Event Syndrome nada episodes playing over and over in my

> > head, hyper-vigilant thoughts for months, never knowing from which direction

> > the next attack was going to come. My only safety and sanity was to get away

> > from her so I could be emotionally safe, where her energy vampirism could

> > not deplete me, where her words could no longer harm me. I suffered guilt

> > for the longest time and I read these words by an author today - " You cannot

> > set boundaries with a BPD because they don't work and it will just hurt them

> > further. " OMG! WTF? Seriously?! Wow, REALLY? You just said that? Okay, so

> > back to the rapist...he might be mentally and physically harmed in jail so

> > you bad evil victims, just shut up and color, okay?

> > >

> > > Okay, I'm not really mad but I'm frustrated that just because my nada has

> > a personality disorder, I'm supposed to excuse her insidious, painful, vile

> > and vengeful emotional and verbal abuse? I don't care who you are or what

> > you have...I've got a lot on my plate being a single mother of 4 kids, a

> > demanding job and lots of plates always in the air. I will not tolerate any

> > form of abuse in my life for any reason.

> > >

> > > What kind of insensitive person would require a victim to shut up and

> > color? I don't get it. BPD diagnosis is not an excuse and a shield to hide

> > abuse behind. Just like alcoholism...when the alcoholics get tired of the

> > consequences in their lives, they are told to go get help and family members

> > are never manipulated by programs into staying when they've been abused or

> > hurt. Alcoholism is also called a disease and it causes great harm to its

> > host but is no excuse for bad behavior. Lots of personality disorders exist

> > but should not excuse people from harm. Okay - so wait, I have a strong

> > bill-paying aversion that runs deep and connects to a deep seated childhood

> > fear of poverty and so must repeatedly scream at, threaten and abuse my

> > creditors even though I charge my accounts up like the best of them. How

> > long do you think my case will last in court? Get help and knock off your

> > bad behavior is going to be the outcome. After lawsuits for bad behavior, of

> > course.

> > >

> > > I am empathetic towards those with personality disorders, absolutely and

> > I include so many in my prayers every night but I get to make choices in

> > life despite my fears just as they do. Abusive behavior is NOT okay. Using a

> > diagnosis to excuse bad behavior, is not okay. BPDs should be understood,

> > absolutely, not engaging in behavior that would be purposely hurtful to them

> > - right! I get that, no way, wouldn't even dream of it but if setting a

> > boundary to protect myself is necessary in my opinion, it's done and any

> > pain I cause is not intentional. It is a matter of emotional

> > self-preservation.

> > >

> > > Okay, my soap box is back under the bed now. LOL

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Girlscout! As a mother, I focus on my role to care for my children and

be the best mother I can be. I know that my nada was the best mother she was

capable of or interested in being. It wasn't okay with me but you can't go back

in time and change things and you certainly don't have to succumb to abuse today

out of guilt anyone tries to lay upon you. LC and NC are last resorts we all

come to and with good reason. Guilt is tough enough. Don't need it from

insensitive authors along with family members. LOL

Many blessings to you!

> > >

> > > The non-BPD should NEVER set boundaries and NEVER use tough love because

> > you are only wounding someone who cannot help it. So, this approach to me is

> > abusive. To me, it is the same as telling the victim of rape to shut up and

> > color and let her attacker do it over and over again and she isn't entitled

> > to rights or safety or sanity because the rapist obviously has a disorder.

> > >

> > > Granted, BPDs have it tough - no doubt about it but to put more blame on

> > the non-BPD than the BPD already has and make it absolutely impossible for

> > them to protect themselves just makes me incredulous. I wonder if those

> > individuals have ever suffered physical abuse from nada because they didn't

> > tip toe quietly enough through the house or shred them verbally because they

> > left a speck on the dish they just washed at 8 years old or humilated and

> > invalidated them when they cried out to another adult for help from abuse

> > and nada intervened and convinced that adult that they were just a sympathy

> > seeking pathological liar. To me, such actions define abuse and abusers do

> > not get to continue to abuse their victims. By requiring that we must stand

> > still and not take insult (when we try but always do at some level) we just

> > create more psychoses for the psychiatrists to untangle. I have suffered

> > Post-Traumatic Event Syndrome nada episodes playing over and over in my

> > head, hyper-vigilant thoughts for months, never knowing from which direction

> > the next attack was going to come. My only safety and sanity was to get away

> > from her so I could be emotionally safe, where her energy vampirism could

> > not deplete me, where her words could no longer harm me. I suffered guilt

> > for the longest time and I read these words by an author today - " You cannot

> > set boundaries with a BPD because they don't work and it will just hurt them

> > further. " OMG! WTF? Seriously?! Wow, REALLY? You just said that? Okay, so

> > back to the rapist...he might be mentally and physically harmed in jail so

> > you bad evil victims, just shut up and color, okay?

> > >

> > > Okay, I'm not really mad but I'm frustrated that just because my nada has

> > a personality disorder, I'm supposed to excuse her insidious, painful, vile

> > and vengeful emotional and verbal abuse? I don't care who you are or what

> > you have...I've got a lot on my plate being a single mother of 4 kids, a

> > demanding job and lots of plates always in the air. I will not tolerate any

> > form of abuse in my life for any reason.

> > >

> > > What kind of insensitive person would require a victim to shut up and

> > color? I don't get it. BPD diagnosis is not an excuse and a shield to hide

> > abuse behind. Just like alcoholism...when the alcoholics get tired of the

> > consequences in their lives, they are told to go get help and family members

> > are never manipulated by programs into staying when they've been abused or

> > hurt. Alcoholism is also called a disease and it causes great harm to its

> > host but is no excuse for bad behavior. Lots of personality disorders exist

> > but should not excuse people from harm. Okay - so wait, I have a strong

> > bill-paying aversion that runs deep and connects to a deep seated childhood

> > fear of poverty and so must repeatedly scream at, threaten and abuse my

> > creditors even though I charge my accounts up like the best of them. How

> > long do you think my case will last in court? Get help and knock off your

> > bad behavior is going to be the outcome. After lawsuits for bad behavior, of

> > course.

> > >

> > > I am empathetic towards those with personality disorders, absolutely and

> > I include so many in my prayers every night but I get to make choices in

> > life despite my fears just as they do. Abusive behavior is NOT okay. Using a

> > diagnosis to excuse bad behavior, is not okay. BPDs should be understood,

> > absolutely, not engaging in behavior that would be purposely hurtful to them

> > - right! I get that, no way, wouldn't even dream of it but if setting a

> > boundary to protect myself is necessary in my opinion, it's done and any

> > pain I cause is not intentional. It is a matter of emotional

> > self-preservation.

> > >

> > > Okay, my soap box is back under the bed now. LOL

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wow. Well, thats onne book I won't be reading. I had enough of my family telling

me that I shouldn't " abandon " someone in their time of need, that if she had a

broken leg, I wouldn't walk away from her! HA!

Broken leg my ass.

I have a certain amount of empathy for my mother, for all our mothers. I don't

know what it's like to live in their own personal hell, driving everyone away,

living with paranoia, living in a world where they are the perpetual victim, and

the focus of their own delusions.

I think perhaps deep down she wants the same thing that I do. A loving,

nurturing relationship.

But I'm also a realist. It's never going to happen. Even if, one day she woke up

and was completely changed, it would take a LOT of effort on her part to prove

it to me.

So, in the meantime, I make the choice to be mentally healthy, I protect my

children from her taint and I set up appropriate boundaries.

>

> The non-BPD should NEVER set boundaries and NEVER use tough love because you

are only wounding someone who cannot help it. So, this approach to me is

abusive. To me, it is the same as telling the victim of rape to shut up and

color and let her attacker do it over and over again and she isn't entitled to

rights or safety or sanity because the rapist obviously has a disorder.

>

> Granted, BPDs have it tough - no doubt about it but to put more blame on the

non-BPD than the BPD already has and make it absolutely impossible for them to

protect themselves just makes me incredulous. I wonder if those individuals

have ever suffered physical abuse from nada because they didn't tip toe quietly

enough through the house or shred them verbally because they left a speck on the

dish they just washed at 8 years old or humilated and invalidated them when they

cried out to another adult for help from abuse and nada intervened and convinced

that adult that they were just a sympathy seeking pathological liar. To me,

such actions define abuse and abusers do not get to continue to abuse their

victims. By requiring that we must stand still and not take insult (when we try

but always do at some level) we just create more psychoses for the psychiatrists

to untangle. I have suffered Post-Traumatic Event Syndrome nada episodes

playing over and over in my head, hyper-vigilant thoughts for months, never

knowing from which direction the next attack was going to come. My only safety

and sanity was to get away from her so I could be emotionally safe, where her

energy vampirism could not deplete me, where her words could no longer harm me.

I suffered guilt for the longest time and I read these words by an author today

- " You cannot set boundaries with a BPD because they don't work and it will just

hurt them further. " OMG! WTF? Seriously?! Wow, REALLY? You just said that?

Okay, so back to the rapist...he might be mentally and physically harmed in jail

so you bad evil victims, just shut up and color, okay?

>

> Okay, I'm not really mad but I'm frustrated that just because my nada has a

personality disorder, I'm supposed to excuse her insidious, painful, vile and

vengeful emotional and verbal abuse? I don't care who you are or what you

have...I've got a lot on my plate being a single mother of 4 kids, a demanding

job and lots of plates always in the air. I will not tolerate any form of abuse

in my life for any reason.

>

> What kind of insensitive person would require a victim to shut up and color?

I don't get it. BPD diagnosis is not an excuse and a shield to hide abuse

behind. Just like alcoholism...when the alcoholics get tired of the

consequences in their lives, they are told to go get help and family members are

never manipulated by programs into staying when they've been abused or hurt.

Alcoholism is also called a disease and it causes great harm to its host but is

no excuse for bad behavior. Lots of personality disorders exist but should not

excuse people from harm. Okay - so wait, I have a strong bill-paying aversion

that runs deep and connects to a deep seated childhood fear of poverty and so

must repeatedly scream at, threaten and abuse my creditors even though I charge

my accounts up like the best of them. How long do you think my case will last

in court? Get help and knock off your bad behavior is going to be the outcome.

After lawsuits for bad behavior, of course.

>

> I am empathetic towards those with personality disorders, absolutely and I

include so many in my prayers every night but I get to make choices in life

despite my fears just as they do. Abusive behavior is NOT okay. Using a

diagnosis to excuse bad behavior, is not okay. BPDs should be understood,

absolutely, not engaging in behavior that would be purposely hurtful to them -

right! I get that, no way, wouldn't even dream of it but if setting a boundary

to protect myself is necessary in my opinion, it's done and any pain I cause is

not intentional. It is a matter of emotional self-preservation.

>

> Okay, my soap box is back under the bed now. LOL

>

[Guest guest]

Wow. Well, thats onne book I won't be reading. I had enough of my family telling

me that I shouldn't " abandon " someone in their time of need, that if she had a

broken leg, I wouldn't walk away from her! HA!

Broken leg my ass.

I have a certain amount of empathy for my mother, for all our mothers. I don't

know what it's like to live in their own personal hell, driving everyone away,

living with paranoia, living in a world where they are the perpetual victim, and

the focus of their own delusions.

I think perhaps deep down she wants the same thing that I do. A loving,

nurturing relationship.

But I'm also a realist. It's never going to happen. Even if, one day she woke up

and was completely changed, it would take a LOT of effort on her part to prove

it to me.

So, in the meantime, I make the choice to be mentally healthy, I protect my

children from her taint and I set up appropriate boundaries.

>

> The non-BPD should NEVER set boundaries and NEVER use tough love because you

are only wounding someone who cannot help it. So, this approach to me is

abusive. To me, it is the same as telling the victim of rape to shut up and

color and let her attacker do it over and over again and she isn't entitled to

rights or safety or sanity because the rapist obviously has a disorder.

>

> Granted, BPDs have it tough - no doubt about it but to put more blame on the

non-BPD than the BPD already has and make it absolutely impossible for them to

protect themselves just makes me incredulous. I wonder if those individuals

have ever suffered physical abuse from nada because they didn't tip toe quietly

enough through the house or shred them verbally because they left a speck on the

dish they just washed at 8 years old or humilated and invalidated them when they

cried out to another adult for help from abuse and nada intervened and convinced

that adult that they were just a sympathy seeking pathological liar. To me,

such actions define abuse and abusers do not get to continue to abuse their

victims. By requiring that we must stand still and not take insult (when we try

but always do at some level) we just create more psychoses for the psychiatrists

to untangle. I have suffered Post-Traumatic Event Syndrome nada episodes

playing over and over in my head, hyper-vigilant thoughts for months, never

knowing from which direction the next attack was going to come. My only safety

and sanity was to get away from her so I could be emotionally safe, where her

energy vampirism could not deplete me, where her words could no longer harm me.

I suffered guilt for the longest time and I read these words by an author today

- " You cannot set boundaries with a BPD because they don't work and it will just

hurt them further. " OMG! WTF? Seriously?! Wow, REALLY? You just said that?

Okay, so back to the rapist...he might be mentally and physically harmed in jail

so you bad evil victims, just shut up and color, okay?

>

> Okay, I'm not really mad but I'm frustrated that just because my nada has a

personality disorder, I'm supposed to excuse her insidious, painful, vile and

vengeful emotional and verbal abuse? I don't care who you are or what you

have...I've got a lot on my plate being a single mother of 4 kids, a demanding

job and lots of plates always in the air. I will not tolerate any form of abuse

in my life for any reason.

>

> What kind of insensitive person would require a victim to shut up and color?

I don't get it. BPD diagnosis is not an excuse and a shield to hide abuse

behind. Just like alcoholism...when the alcoholics get tired of the

consequences in their lives, they are told to go get help and family members are

never manipulated by programs into staying when they've been abused or hurt.

Alcoholism is also called a disease and it causes great harm to its host but is

no excuse for bad behavior. Lots of personality disorders exist but should not

excuse people from harm. Okay - so wait, I have a strong bill-paying aversion

that runs deep and connects to a deep seated childhood fear of poverty and so

must repeatedly scream at, threaten and abuse my creditors even though I charge

my accounts up like the best of them. How long do you think my case will last

in court? Get help and knock off your bad behavior is going to be the outcome.

After lawsuits for bad behavior, of course.

>

> I am empathetic towards those with personality disorders, absolutely and I

include so many in my prayers every night but I get to make choices in life

despite my fears just as they do. Abusive behavior is NOT okay. Using a

diagnosis to excuse bad behavior, is not okay. BPDs should be understood,

absolutely, not engaging in behavior that would be purposely hurtful to them -

right! I get that, no way, wouldn't even dream of it but if setting a boundary

to protect myself is necessary in my opinion, it's done and any pain I cause is

not intentional. It is a matter of emotional self-preservation.

>

> Okay, my soap box is back under the bed now. LOL

>

[Guest guest]

Ugh, sounds like that author has no idea what it's like to be a KO! So many

books I see are about how to help the BP, and so few are good for helping people

affected by BPs.

Maybe we read the same book! I recently read sections of Overcoming Borderline

Personality Disorder, by Porr, and found it similarly frustrating,

because she seems to be writing to adults who have spouses or children with BPD,

and not KOs, who have experienced powerlessness and devastating abuse at the

hands of the BP. Porr also discourages setting formal boundaries, because to the

BP, they seem arbitrary and are impossible for the BP to follow. She writes

something like, " People with BPD may interpret boundaries as a punishment, or as

an attempt to control them. " Well, that can be true, but for us KOs, boundaries

can mean survival!

She also encourages validation, and gives some scripts for talking through a

problem with a BP, which can be helpful for those of us in contact or LC with

relatively high-functioning Nadas. But much of her advice makes it sound like

she has no idea what it's like to just want to feel safe and sane. We need

validation, too!

>

> The non-BPD should NEVER set boundaries and NEVER use tough love because you

are only wounding someone who cannot help it. So, this approach to me is

abusive. To me, it is the same as telling the victim of rape to shut up and

color and let her attacker do it over and over again and she isn't entitled to

rights or safety or sanity because the rapist obviously has a disorder.

>

> Granted, BPDs have it tough - no doubt about it but to put more blame on the

non-BPD than the BPD already has and make it absolutely impossible for them to

protect themselves just makes me incredulous. I wonder if those individuals

have ever suffered physical abuse from nada because they didn't tip toe quietly

enough through the house or shred them verbally because they left a speck on the

dish they just washed at 8 years old or humilated and invalidated them when they

cried out to another adult for help from abuse and nada intervened and convinced

that adult that they were just a sympathy seeking pathological liar. To me,

such actions define abuse and abusers do not get to continue to abuse their

victims. By requiring that we must stand still and not take insult (when we try

but always do at some level) we just create more psychoses for the psychiatrists

to untangle. I have suffered Post-Traumatic Event Syndrome nada episodes

playing over and over in my head, hyper-vigilant thoughts for months, never

knowing from which direction the next attack was going to come. My only safety

and sanity was to get away from her so I could be emotionally safe, where her

energy vampirism could not deplete me, where her words could no longer harm me.

I suffered guilt for the longest time and I read these words by an author today

- " You cannot set boundaries with a BPD because they don't work and it will just

hurt them further. " OMG! WTF? Seriously?! Wow, REALLY? You just said that?

Okay, so back to the rapist...he might be mentally and physically harmed in jail

so you bad evil victims, just shut up and color, okay?

>

> Okay, I'm not really mad but I'm frustrated that just because my nada has a

personality disorder, I'm supposed to excuse her insidious, painful, vile and

vengeful emotional and verbal abuse? I don't care who you are or what you

have...I've got a lot on my plate being a single mother of 4 kids, a demanding

job and lots of plates always in the air. I will not tolerate any form of abuse

in my life for any reason.

>

> What kind of insensitive person would require a victim to shut up and color?

I don't get it. BPD diagnosis is not an excuse and a shield to hide abuse

behind. Just like alcoholism...when the alcoholics get tired of the

consequences in their lives, they are told to go get help and family members are

never manipulated by programs into staying when they've been abused or hurt.

Alcoholism is also called a disease and it causes great harm to its host but is

no excuse for bad behavior. Lots of personality disorders exist but should not

excuse people from harm. Okay - so wait, I have a strong bill-paying aversion

that runs deep and connects to a deep seated childhood fear of poverty and so

must repeatedly scream at, threaten and abuse my creditors even though I charge

my accounts up like the best of them. How long do you think my case will last

in court? Get help and knock off your bad behavior is going to be the outcome.

After lawsuits for bad behavior, of course.

>

> I am empathetic towards those with personality disorders, absolutely and I

include so many in my prayers every night but I get to make choices in life

despite my fears just as they do. Abusive behavior is NOT okay. Using a

diagnosis to excuse bad behavior, is not okay. BPDs should be understood,

absolutely, not engaging in behavior that would be purposely hurtful to them -

right! I get that, no way, wouldn't even dream of it but if setting a boundary

to protect myself is necessary in my opinion, it's done and any pain I cause is

not intentional. It is a matter of emotional self-preservation.

>

> Okay, my soap box is back under the bed now. LOL

>

[Guest guest]

Ugh, sounds like that author has no idea what it's like to be a KO! So many

books I see are about how to help the BP, and so few are good for helping people

affected by BPs.

Maybe we read the same book! I recently read sections of Overcoming Borderline

Personality Disorder, by Porr, and found it similarly frustrating,

because she seems to be writing to adults who have spouses or children with BPD,

and not KOs, who have experienced powerlessness and devastating abuse at the

hands of the BP. Porr also discourages setting formal boundaries, because to the

BP, they seem arbitrary and are impossible for the BP to follow. She writes

something like, " People with BPD may interpret boundaries as a punishment, or as

an attempt to control them. " Well, that can be true, but for us KOs, boundaries

can mean survival!

She also encourages validation, and gives some scripts for talking through a

problem with a BP, which can be helpful for those of us in contact or LC with

relatively high-functioning Nadas. But much of her advice makes it sound like

she has no idea what it's like to just want to feel safe and sane. We need

validation, too!

>

> The non-BPD should NEVER set boundaries and NEVER use tough love because you

are only wounding someone who cannot help it. So, this approach to me is

abusive. To me, it is the same as telling the victim of rape to shut up and

color and let her attacker do it over and over again and she isn't entitled to

rights or safety or sanity because the rapist obviously has a disorder.

>

> Granted, BPDs have it tough - no doubt about it but to put more blame on the

non-BPD than the BPD already has and make it absolutely impossible for them to

protect themselves just makes me incredulous. I wonder if those individuals

have ever suffered physical abuse from nada because they didn't tip toe quietly

enough through the house or shred them verbally because they left a speck on the

dish they just washed at 8 years old or humilated and invalidated them when they

cried out to another adult for help from abuse and nada intervened and convinced

that adult that they were just a sympathy seeking pathological liar. To me,

such actions define abuse and abusers do not get to continue to abuse their

victims. By requiring that we must stand still and not take insult (when we try

but always do at some level) we just create more psychoses for the psychiatrists

to untangle. I have suffered Post-Traumatic Event Syndrome nada episodes

playing over and over in my head, hyper-vigilant thoughts for months, never

knowing from which direction the next attack was going to come. My only safety

and sanity was to get away from her so I could be emotionally safe, where her

energy vampirism could not deplete me, where her words could no longer harm me.

I suffered guilt for the longest time and I read these words by an author today

- " You cannot set boundaries with a BPD because they don't work and it will just

hurt them further. " OMG! WTF? Seriously?! Wow, REALLY? You just said that?

Okay, so back to the rapist...he might be mentally and physically harmed in jail

so you bad evil victims, just shut up and color, okay?

>

> Okay, I'm not really mad but I'm frustrated that just because my nada has a

personality disorder, I'm supposed to excuse her insidious, painful, vile and

vengeful emotional and verbal abuse? I don't care who you are or what you

have...I've got a lot on my plate being a single mother of 4 kids, a demanding

job and lots of plates always in the air. I will not tolerate any form of abuse

in my life for any reason.

>

> What kind of insensitive person would require a victim to shut up and color?

I don't get it. BPD diagnosis is not an excuse and a shield to hide abuse

behind. Just like alcoholism...when the alcoholics get tired of the

consequences in their lives, they are told to go get help and family members are

never manipulated by programs into staying when they've been abused or hurt.

Alcoholism is also called a disease and it causes great harm to its host but is

no excuse for bad behavior. Lots of personality disorders exist but should not

excuse people from harm. Okay - so wait, I have a strong bill-paying aversion

that runs deep and connects to a deep seated childhood fear of poverty and so

must repeatedly scream at, threaten and abuse my creditors even though I charge

my accounts up like the best of them. How long do you think my case will last

in court? Get help and knock off your bad behavior is going to be the outcome.

After lawsuits for bad behavior, of course.

>

> I am empathetic towards those with personality disorders, absolutely and I

include so many in my prayers every night but I get to make choices in life

despite my fears just as they do. Abusive behavior is NOT okay. Using a

diagnosis to excuse bad behavior, is not okay. BPDs should be understood,

absolutely, not engaging in behavior that would be purposely hurtful to them -

right! I get that, no way, wouldn't even dream of it but if setting a boundary

to protect myself is necessary in my opinion, it's done and any pain I cause is

not intentional. It is a matter of emotional self-preservation.

>

> Okay, my soap box is back under the bed now. LOL

>

[Guest guest]

Ugh, sounds like that author has no idea what it's like to be a KO! So many

books I see are about how to help the BP, and so few are good for helping people

affected by BPs.

Maybe we read the same book! I recently read sections of Overcoming Borderline

Personality Disorder, by Porr, and found it similarly frustrating,

because she seems to be writing to adults who have spouses or children with BPD,

and not KOs, who have experienced powerlessness and devastating abuse at the

hands of the BP. Porr also discourages setting formal boundaries, because to the

BP, they seem arbitrary and are impossible for the BP to follow. She writes

something like, " People with BPD may interpret boundaries as a punishment, or as

an attempt to control them. " Well, that can be true, but for us KOs, boundaries

can mean survival!

She also encourages validation, and gives some scripts for talking through a

problem with a BP, which can be helpful for those of us in contact or LC with

relatively high-functioning Nadas. But much of her advice makes it sound like

she has no idea what it's like to just want to feel safe and sane. We need

validation, too!

>

> The non-BPD should NEVER set boundaries and NEVER use tough love because you

are only wounding someone who cannot help it. So, this approach to me is

abusive. To me, it is the same as telling the victim of rape to shut up and

color and let her attacker do it over and over again and she isn't entitled to

rights or safety or sanity because the rapist obviously has a disorder.

>

> Granted, BPDs have it tough - no doubt about it but to put more blame on the

non-BPD than the BPD already has and make it absolutely impossible for them to

protect themselves just makes me incredulous. I wonder if those individuals

have ever suffered physical abuse from nada because they didn't tip toe quietly

enough through the house or shred them verbally because they left a speck on the

dish they just washed at 8 years old or humilated and invalidated them when they

cried out to another adult for help from abuse and nada intervened and convinced

that adult that they were just a sympathy seeking pathological liar. To me,

such actions define abuse and abusers do not get to continue to abuse their

victims. By requiring that we must stand still and not take insult (when we try

but always do at some level) we just create more psychoses for the psychiatrists

to untangle. I have suffered Post-Traumatic Event Syndrome nada episodes

playing over and over in my head, hyper-vigilant thoughts for months, never

knowing from which direction the next attack was going to come. My only safety

and sanity was to get away from her so I could be emotionally safe, where her

energy vampirism could not deplete me, where her words could no longer harm me.

I suffered guilt for the longest time and I read these words by an author today

- " You cannot set boundaries with a BPD because they don't work and it will just

hurt them further. " OMG! WTF? Seriously?! Wow, REALLY? You just said that?

Okay, so back to the rapist...he might be mentally and physically harmed in jail

so you bad evil victims, just shut up and color, okay?

>

> Okay, I'm not really mad but I'm frustrated that just because my nada has a

personality disorder, I'm supposed to excuse her insidious, painful, vile and

vengeful emotional and verbal abuse? I don't care who you are or what you

have...I've got a lot on my plate being a single mother of 4 kids, a demanding

job and lots of plates always in the air. I will not tolerate any form of abuse

in my life for any reason.

>

> What kind of insensitive person would require a victim to shut up and color?

I don't get it. BPD diagnosis is not an excuse and a shield to hide abuse

behind. Just like alcoholism...when the alcoholics get tired of the

consequences in their lives, they are told to go get help and family members are

never manipulated by programs into staying when they've been abused or hurt.

Alcoholism is also called a disease and it causes great harm to its host but is

no excuse for bad behavior. Lots of personality disorders exist but should not

excuse people from harm. Okay - so wait, I have a strong bill-paying aversion

that runs deep and connects to a deep seated childhood fear of poverty and so

must repeatedly scream at, threaten and abuse my creditors even though I charge

my accounts up like the best of them. How long do you think my case will last

in court? Get help and knock off your bad behavior is going to be the outcome.

After lawsuits for bad behavior, of course.

>

> I am empathetic towards those with personality disorders, absolutely and I

include so many in my prayers every night but I get to make choices in life

despite my fears just as they do. Abusive behavior is NOT okay. Using a

diagnosis to excuse bad behavior, is not okay. BPDs should be understood,

absolutely, not engaging in behavior that would be purposely hurtful to them -

right! I get that, no way, wouldn't even dream of it but if setting a boundary

to protect myself is necessary in my opinion, it's done and any pain I cause is

not intentional. It is a matter of emotional self-preservation.

>

> Okay, my soap box is back under the bed now. LOL

>

[Guest guest]

Yep, I agree that its an individual choice for an *adult* non whether to stay in

a chosen relationship with a bpd partner/spouse or remain in contact with a bpd

parent, because every individual with bpd has their own unique degree and flavor

of dysfunction.

Some with personality disorder have fewer traits, and display them with less

intensity and less frequency. And others with personality disorder are freaking

off the rails and harmful to themselves and to others.

An *adult* can choose whether to " white knuckle " it through the emotional

dysregulation episodes, choose to attempt dialectical behavioral therapy

techniques with their bpd loved one, choose to attempt to set reasonable,

rational boundaries and enforce them with their person with bpd, or just call it

quits and walk away...

but minor children of a person with bpd have no such options. Children of those

with bpd are in a uniquely vulnerable and helpless position.

Since personality disorder and borderline personality disorder in particular

shows its worst aspects in intimate relationships, the children of a bpd person

are at THE MOST risk for emotional and physical injury and sexual exploitation

from a bpd parent, moreso than ANY chosen partner or acquaintance or co-worker

or neighbor.

My own personal opinion is that the children of those with untreated personality

disorder who are being mistreated, even children who are " only " enduring

emotional abuse, should be removed from the pd parent's (or parents') care until

the pd individual goes into treatment and shows real comprehension of their

condition and how they're impacting their child(ren), and a willingness to

change their behaviors, and a willingness to be monitored about it.

I think children should have only supervised visitation with a parent or other

relative with personality disorder for their own safety.

In my opinion, no child should be left alone with a parent who at any moment

could trigger into a screaming rage and batter his or her child, who might

threaten suicide and may even decide to " take her child to heaven " with her, who

might decide that her infant or child is actually a demon from hell who is there

to torment her, who might decide that the child is " all bad " and needs to be

locked in the basement without food or water for a few days to " teach her a

lesson " , etc.

No child should be left alone with a parent who sees the child as a mere object

with no needs and feelings of her own, who constantly criticizes, demeans and

shames the child, who is inappropriately intrusive and enmeshed with the child,

who treats the child as her substitute spouse, who gives the child no privacy

and no voice, and behaves in sexually inappropriate ways toward her child.

No child should be left alone with a parent who views her own child as a

disappointing burden or as a rival, who punishes her child for simply existing

or for hitting puberty, who has unrealistic expectations of her child and

exploits her child like a performing dog or a free housekeeping service, who

fails to protect her child from the sexual abuse of others, or who publicly

shames and ridicules the child for mistakes, or for having been sexually

exploited.

The kinds of abuse are too numerous to list, but I think I've made my point.

In my opinion the child of a parent with personality disorder (particularly when

its the bpd mother who is the primary caregiver) is *guaranteed* to receive

emotional injury, and possibly physical injury and sexual injury and its the

child's needs that should be given priority in such cases.

Bottom line: children cannot " manage " a relationship with a mentally ill parent

(or any adult, for that matter) and its unfair and irresponsible to even ask

them to.

-Annie

>

>

> I can't remember the title, nor the complete name. It was Polacek or

something like that. I also saw lots of youtube videos mentioning the same

thing. (Which, I get - for a BPD that is not in treatment - if you even

insinuate that you will not talk to them until they can treat you more

respectfully or discuss in a civil tone - you'd be setting off WWIII). I would

like to assume positive intent but helping the BPD at the cost of sending

someone else into PTSD, sorry, that's a non-starter and the ones recommending

that the non-BPDs just suck it up and realize it isn't about you need to

understand that only goes so far. Until we are ascended masters in this frame

(which most of us will never be), there is only a small percent of us that could

withstand continual abuse and be totally okay with it (because we know this is

just a play and someone else's psychology has nothing to do with us). It's

never okay and there is no excuse for bad behavior...if it's caused by an

illness, treatment is the best course to keep the disordered from remaining in a

perpetual state of consequence. For the non-BPD, whatever healthy path chosen

to emotionally protect self--LC, NC or sheer white-knuckling compassion and

understanding - it's a choice, not is wrong or right. Every situation is

different.

[Guest guest]

Yep, I agree that its an individual choice for an *adult* non whether to stay in

a chosen relationship with a bpd partner/spouse or remain in contact with a bpd

parent, because every individual with bpd has their own unique degree and flavor

of dysfunction.

Some with personality disorder have fewer traits, and display them with less

intensity and less frequency. And others with personality disorder are freaking

off the rails and harmful to themselves and to others.

An *adult* can choose whether to " white knuckle " it through the emotional

dysregulation episodes, choose to attempt dialectical behavioral therapy

techniques with their bpd loved one, choose to attempt to set reasonable,

rational boundaries and enforce them with their person with bpd, or just call it

quits and walk away...

but minor children of a person with bpd have no such options. Children of those

with bpd are in a uniquely vulnerable and helpless position.

Since personality disorder and borderline personality disorder in particular

shows its worst aspects in intimate relationships, the children of a bpd person

are at THE MOST risk for emotional and physical injury and sexual exploitation

from a bpd parent, moreso than ANY chosen partner or acquaintance or co-worker

or neighbor.

My own personal opinion is that the children of those with untreated personality

disorder who are being mistreated, even children who are " only " enduring

emotional abuse, should be removed from the pd parent's (or parents') care until

the pd individual goes into treatment and shows real comprehension of their

condition and how they're impacting their child(ren), and a willingness to

change their behaviors, and a willingness to be monitored about it.

I think children should have only supervised visitation with a parent or other

relative with personality disorder for their own safety.

In my opinion, no child should be left alone with a parent who at any moment

could trigger into a screaming rage and batter his or her child, who might

threaten suicide and may even decide to " take her child to heaven " with her, who

might decide that her infant or child is actually a demon from hell who is there

to torment her, who might decide that the child is " all bad " and needs to be

locked in the basement without food or water for a few days to " teach her a

lesson " , etc.

No child should be left alone with a parent who sees the child as a mere object

with no needs and feelings of her own, who constantly criticizes, demeans and

shames the child, who is inappropriately intrusive and enmeshed with the child,

who treats the child as her substitute spouse, who gives the child no privacy

and no voice, and behaves in sexually inappropriate ways toward her child.

No child should be left alone with a parent who views her own child as a

disappointing burden or as a rival, who punishes her child for simply existing

or for hitting puberty, who has unrealistic expectations of her child and

exploits her child like a performing dog or a free housekeeping service, who

fails to protect her child from the sexual abuse of others, or who publicly

shames and ridicules the child for mistakes, or for having been sexually

exploited.

The kinds of abuse are too numerous to list, but I think I've made my point.

In my opinion the child of a parent with personality disorder (particularly when

its the bpd mother who is the primary caregiver) is *guaranteed* to receive

emotional injury, and possibly physical injury and sexual injury and its the

child's needs that should be given priority in such cases.

Bottom line: children cannot " manage " a relationship with a mentally ill parent

(or any adult, for that matter) and its unfair and irresponsible to even ask

them to.

-Annie

>

>

> I can't remember the title, nor the complete name. It was Polacek or

something like that. I also saw lots of youtube videos mentioning the same

thing. (Which, I get - for a BPD that is not in treatment - if you even

insinuate that you will not talk to them until they can treat you more

respectfully or discuss in a civil tone - you'd be setting off WWIII). I would

like to assume positive intent but helping the BPD at the cost of sending

someone else into PTSD, sorry, that's a non-starter and the ones recommending

that the non-BPDs just suck it up and realize it isn't about you need to

understand that only goes so far. Until we are ascended masters in this frame

(which most of us will never be), there is only a small percent of us that could

withstand continual abuse and be totally okay with it (because we know this is

just a play and someone else's psychology has nothing to do with us). It's

never okay and there is no excuse for bad behavior...if it's caused by an

illness, treatment is the best course to keep the disordered from remaining in a

perpetual state of consequence. For the non-BPD, whatever healthy path chosen

to emotionally protect self--LC, NC or sheer white-knuckling compassion and

understanding - it's a choice, not is wrong or right. Every situation is

different.

[Guest guest]

Wow, yes, that author must not be the adult child of a personality-disordered

parent, is the only thing that occurs to me.

Its apples and oranges as far as I'm concerned.

I as an adult have equal power with any other adult (well, figuratively if not

literally; I can't choose to walk away from a policeman who has stopped me for a

traffic violation, for example) and I can choose whether to have that person in

my life or not.

I can even walk away from an abusive client, knowing that the consequences are

that I may not get paid and won't get that particular client's recommendation to

other potential clients. Its a risk I can choose to take, or not, because I do

have that power.

But children do not have equal power with adults, and particularly do not have

equal power with their parents. Its just not the same situation AT ALL.

A child is as vulnerable with any adult, as any adult is in a totalitarian

government that has the power to arrest you and throw you in prison without

legal representation, to take your property, or even just execute you at will,

with no consequences. Children don't have the same human rights or civil rights

as adults; children are more like real estate or cattle, they're more like

physical property than like small human beings.

(That's why I'd love it if children had free access to lawyers; I know its a

fantasy, but, I just love that concept. Man, I could have sued my nada for

assault and battery so many times, she'd probably still be in jail for it!)

-Annie

> >

> > The non-BPD should NEVER set boundaries and NEVER use tough love because you

are only wounding someone who cannot help it. So, this approach to me is

abusive. To me, it is the same as telling the victim of rape to shut up and

color and let her attacker do it over and over again and she isn't entitled to

rights or safety or sanity because the rapist obviously has a disorder.

> >

> > Granted, BPDs have it tough - no doubt about it but to put more blame on the

non-BPD than the BPD already has and make it absolutely impossible for them to

protect themselves just makes me incredulous. I wonder if those individuals

have ever suffered physical abuse from nada because they didn't tip toe quietly

enough through the house or shred them verbally because they left a speck on the

dish they just washed at 8 years old or humilated and invalidated them when they

cried out to another adult for help from abuse and nada intervened and convinced

that adult that they were just a sympathy seeking pathological liar. To me,

such actions define abuse and abusers do not get to continue to abuse their

victims. By requiring that we must stand still and not take insult (when we try

but always do at some level) we just create more psychoses for the psychiatrists

to untangle. I have suffered Post-Traumatic Event Syndrome nada episodes

playing over and over in my head, hyper-vigilant thoughts for months, never

knowing from which direction the next attack was going to come. My only safety

and sanity was to get away from her so I could be emotionally safe, where her

energy vampirism could not deplete me, where her words could no longer harm me.

I suffered guilt for the longest time and I read these words by an author today

- " You cannot set boundaries with a BPD because they don't work and it will just

hurt them further. " OMG! WTF? Seriously?! Wow, REALLY? You just said that?

Okay, so back to the rapist...he might be mentally and physically harmed in jail

so you bad evil victims, just shut up and color, okay?

> >

> > Okay, I'm not really mad but I'm frustrated that just because my nada has a

personality disorder, I'm supposed to excuse her insidious, painful, vile and

vengeful emotional and verbal abuse? I don't care who you are or what you

have...I've got a lot on my plate being a single mother of 4 kids, a demanding

job and lots of plates always in the air. I will not tolerate any form of abuse

in my life for any reason.

> >

> > What kind of insensitive person would require a victim to shut up and color?

I don't get it. BPD diagnosis is not an excuse and a shield to hide abuse

behind. Just like alcoholism...when the alcoholics get tired of the

consequences in their lives, they are told to go get help and family members are

never manipulated by programs into staying when they've been abused or hurt.

Alcoholism is also called a disease and it causes great harm to its host but is

no excuse for bad behavior. Lots of personality disorders exist but should not

excuse people from harm. Okay - so wait, I have a strong bill-paying aversion

that runs deep and connects to a deep seated childhood fear of poverty and so

must repeatedly scream at, threaten and abuse my creditors even though I charge

my accounts up like the best of them. How long do you think my case will last

in court? Get help and knock off your bad behavior is going to be the outcome.

After lawsuits for bad behavior, of course.

> >

> > I am empathetic towards those with personality disorders, absolutely and I

include so many in my prayers every night but I get to make choices in life

despite my fears just as they do. Abusive behavior is NOT okay. Using a

diagnosis to excuse bad behavior, is not okay. BPDs should be understood,

absolutely, not engaging in behavior that would be purposely hurtful to them -

right! I get that, no way, wouldn't even dream of it but if setting a boundary

to protect myself is necessary in my opinion, it's done and any pain I cause is

not intentional. It is a matter of emotional self-preservation.

> >

> > Okay, my soap box is back under the bed now. LOL

> >

>

[Guest guest]

It seems to me that being a KO,no matter how you choose to handle the

relationship with the parent (contact/no contact),is just fundamentally

different from any other relationship such as spouse of a BPD/parent of a

BPD.The parent/child relationship is unique and when you are the adult *child*

of a BPD who has conditioned you pretty much from birth to " accept "

abuse,boundaries are vitally necessary.If the author of a book on BPD doesn't

have an awareness of the unique dynamics that come from having been " parented "

by a BPD,then they can't really offer advice,bottom line,it seems to me.It

really needs to be a chapter unto itself if not the subject of the whole

book.Having been conditioned by a BPD parent while our brains were developing is

TOTALLY different from marrying one of them or raising one of them,just not the

same thing at all.

You cannot just " suck up " your reactions to conditioning that has been

detrimental to your very sense of self.Anyone who would advocate that does not

understand what it *is* to be a KO.

> >

> > Which books say *that!?* I'd like to know so that I can read them and

recommend that they be avoided as abusive to the KOs of abusive pd parents!

> >

> > -Annie

[Guest guest]

It seems to me that being a KO,no matter how you choose to handle the

relationship with the parent (contact/no contact),is just fundamentally

different from any other relationship such as spouse of a BPD/parent of a

BPD.The parent/child relationship is unique and when you are the adult *child*

of a BPD who has conditioned you pretty much from birth to " accept "

abuse,boundaries are vitally necessary.If the author of a book on BPD doesn't

have an awareness of the unique dynamics that come from having been " parented "

by a BPD,then they can't really offer advice,bottom line,it seems to me.It

really needs to be a chapter unto itself if not the subject of the whole

book.Having been conditioned by a BPD parent while our brains were developing is

TOTALLY different from marrying one of them or raising one of them,just not the

same thing at all.

You cannot just " suck up " your reactions to conditioning that has been

detrimental to your very sense of self.Anyone who would advocate that does not

understand what it *is* to be a KO.

> >

> > Which books say *that!?* I'd like to know so that I can read them and

recommend that they be avoided as abusive to the KOs of abusive pd parents!

> >

> > -Annie

[Guest guest]

I think I found what you are talking about. There is a book called

Overcoming Borderling Personality Disorder, by Porr, MA.

Excerpted from " An Afterward to Clinicians " the author says, in part

Avoid boundaries, limits, contracts, and tough love. These methods are

not effective with people with BPD. Be sure that families understand

that boundaries are generally viewed as punishment by people with BPD.

Be sure they understand how to change behavior by reinforcement,

punishment, shaping, and extinction so that they do not reinforce

maladaptive behaviors.

She also makes the point in the afterward that 70 % of BP s who enter

treatment drop out. Also, if you read carefully in the afterward, she

talks several times about excluding parents who are paying for the

therapy from the process.

In part of the text, she points out that these are DBT skills taught to

families, as an adjunct to therapy using DBT for the BP. This assumes

to some extent, the willingness and ability of the BP to be involved in

treatment.

She describes families of BP s as being in a state of " perpetual

traumatic stress disorder " . I like that! Sort of captures our

dynamic.

This approach assumes a family being involved with a loved one with BPD

who is participating in treatment, and in this case the success of the

treatment is primary, and the healing and coping of the family is

secondary.

I admit my first response when reading the post is this bitch must be

out of her mind to write a book like that! Can I get an amen?

But, in reading a bit more, I think her statement that families should

not use boundaries is based on the very specific situation in which the

BP is in DBT treatment, the family is trained in DBT techniques, and is

informed and an actual participant in the therapeutic process.

We would, I think, all love and welcome the chance to try these

techniques and see our Nada heal and become some semblance of normal.

We DO understand that they have a debilitating disorder. But, in that

we are children of BP s, we were and are never in the situation where we

can insist, or even beg, participation or information about their

therapy. Most of us are not in a place where Marsha Mclinahan or some

other DBT practitioner is available.

If these things would work, and give us a chance of a having a mother ,

instead of a nada, we would try. I would have tried.

Still, this is not our situation. Nada is an adult and can choose, and

rarely chooses anything that makes her deal with her stuff.

Our use of boundaries is NOT what this author is talking about, since it

is not a part of Nada s changing and healing. If we were dealing with a

BP child, this might be appropriate advice. But our boundaries are

about giving up, deciding that Nada is not about to change, and doing

the best we can to find a healthy life for ourselves.

http://www.amazon.com/reader/0195379586?_encoding=UTF8 & page=32#reader_01\

95379586

Here is the book on Amazon, and you can read the same excerpts I did.

I don think she was talking about our situation. But if she were, I

would default to " What are you TALKING about, bitch! "

Doug

[Guest guest]

Awesome reply Annie. Mothers that have BPD may very well love their children

but some with extreme symptoms are wholly incapable of rearing them in a healthy

way.

> >

> >

> > I can't remember the title, nor the complete name. It was Polacek

or something like that. I also saw lots of youtube videos mentioning the same

thing. (Which, I get - for a BPD that is not in treatment - if you even

insinuate that you will not talk to them until they can treat you more

respectfully or discuss in a civil tone - you'd be setting off WWIII). I would

like to assume positive intent but helping the BPD at the cost of sending

someone else into PTSD, sorry, that's a non-starter and the ones recommending

that the non-BPDs just suck it up and realize it isn't about you need to

understand that only goes so far. Until we are ascended masters in this frame

(which most of us will never be), there is only a small percent of us that could

withstand continual abuse and be totally okay with it (because we know this is

just a play and someone else's psychology has nothing to do with us). It's

never okay and there is no excuse for bad behavior...if it's caused by an

illness, treatment is the best course to keep the disordered from remaining in a

perpetual state of consequence. For the non-BPD, whatever healthy path chosen

to emotionally protect self--LC, NC or sheer white-knuckling compassion and

understanding - it's a choice, not is wrong or right. Every situation is

different.

>

[Guest guest]

Awesome reply Annie. Mothers that have BPD may very well love their children

but some with extreme symptoms are wholly incapable of rearing them in a healthy

way.

> >

> >

> > I can't remember the title, nor the complete name. It was Polacek

or something like that. I also saw lots of youtube videos mentioning the same

thing. (Which, I get - for a BPD that is not in treatment - if you even

insinuate that you will not talk to them until they can treat you more

respectfully or discuss in a civil tone - you'd be setting off WWIII). I would

like to assume positive intent but helping the BPD at the cost of sending

someone else into PTSD, sorry, that's a non-starter and the ones recommending

that the non-BPDs just suck it up and realize it isn't about you need to

understand that only goes so far. Until we are ascended masters in this frame

(which most of us will never be), there is only a small percent of us that could

withstand continual abuse and be totally okay with it (because we know this is

just a play and someone else's psychology has nothing to do with us). It's

never okay and there is no excuse for bad behavior...if it's caused by an

illness, treatment is the best course to keep the disordered from remaining in a

perpetual state of consequence. For the non-BPD, whatever healthy path chosen

to emotionally protect self--LC, NC or sheer white-knuckling compassion and

understanding - it's a choice, not is wrong or right. Every situation is

different.

>

[Guest guest]

Awesome reply Annie. Mothers that have BPD may very well love their children

but some with extreme symptoms are wholly incapable of rearing them in a healthy

way.

> >

> >

> > I can't remember the title, nor the complete name. It was Polacek

or something like that. I also saw lots of youtube videos mentioning the same

thing. (Which, I get - for a BPD that is not in treatment - if you even

insinuate that you will not talk to them until they can treat you more

respectfully or discuss in a civil tone - you'd be setting off WWIII). I would

like to assume positive intent but helping the BPD at the cost of sending

someone else into PTSD, sorry, that's a non-starter and the ones recommending

that the non-BPDs just suck it up and realize it isn't about you need to

understand that only goes so far. Until we are ascended masters in this frame

(which most of us will never be), there is only a small percent of us that could

withstand continual abuse and be totally okay with it (because we know this is

just a play and someone else's psychology has nothing to do with us). It's

never okay and there is no excuse for bad behavior...if it's caused by an

illness, treatment is the best course to keep the disordered from remaining in a

perpetual state of consequence. For the non-BPD, whatever healthy path chosen

to emotionally protect self--LC, NC or sheer white-knuckling compassion and

understanding - it's a choice, not is wrong or right. Every situation is

different.

>

[Guest guest]

Glad to help.

I believe that forgiveness is important. My own nada bitterly hated her

own mother till her dying day, and it made her a very bitter woman. I

do not believe she had cause, but was splitting on my grandmother and

assigning her the villain role.

It is important for us, KO s, to forgive our Nada s. The anger and hate

inside us does not faze them in the least, but it is an acid that eats

at our souls.

Forgiveness does not mean it is ok, that it doesnt mean anything. It

means, although I have the right, I forgo now and forever my right to

exact revenge from you for your wrongs to me. I wipe the slate clean.

It does NOT mean that we have to continue taking the abuse and hurt. We

have the right to make ourselves safe, and forgiveness notwithstanding,

does not give them the right to continue exacting it from us.

So when I say we ought to forgive, I don t mean we have to go back for

more, or that we cannot enforce our boundaries. I mean that we no longer

have to carry around the burden of pain that says, you hurt me and you

owe me, bitch!

We may feel that way, and it may be true. But they will never accept

it, nor will they ever acknowledge our pain or make any payment on it.

But we can be free from it by coming to the place of saying, I forgive

all the pain and abuse. It s no longer my job to take care of it. It

is between you and your God.

Now, I am free to heal from it. You no longer have power over me.

You wrote

But it is hard to stay in a state of forgiveness as the abuse continues

and I fail to realize at the level of the heart that everything she

says and does is not about me. It's about her and her own unhealed pain

but still it hurts, doubly so...to see someone I love in so much pain

and then to hear someone I love and who says they love me, shred me

brutally. It's hard.

Yes, it is. But understand that forgiveness does not mean it s ok to

keep doing this. It is fair and reasonable to say, I forgive yoiu for

doing XYZ to me, and for the pain it caused me. But I will no longer

let you do it to me from now on. The past is gone, and I give that to

you. I hope you heal, and come to me healthy some day to heal the

relationship. If you do, I ll be here.

But, until that time, I will no longer permit you to hurt me.

Doug

[Guest guest]

In my own case, I view what you're describing, Doug, as " detachment " , and

that's a good, healthy thing to achieve when someone is actively engaged in

attempting to hurt you.

For me, its simply deciding to not allow nada to abuse me any longer. Its

understanding and accepting that she is the way she is and can't or won't

change, and just... walking away from it and getting on with my own life. It's

not hate: I don't want to hurt her, and despite my fantasies of children with

high-powered lawyers, I don't want to " out " her, humiliate her, shame her, or

get revenge against her, either, but at the same time I can't pardon what she's

done to me and I don't love her; I simply don't want to be around her any more.

This has been a hard road for me, because my nada isn't all-bad. She's no

2-dimensional super-villain that everyone loves to boo and hiss. I know she has

a good side, I've felt her love for me, and I've spent my life aching to love

her without fear. But as a member at another support group put it, even if the

beautiful, delicious-looking cake has arsenic in it at only 2% of the total

ingredients, the cake will still kill you. No matter how many pretty sugar-roses

are on it, that 2% still makes it deadly.

So... I'm am at the point of... neutrality. Hate and Love both connect one

person to another, and I'm about reaching a state of non- connectedness, now.

My own personal definition of " forgiveness " has to do with a two-way

interaction. It has to do with realizing and caring that you've hurt someone,

seeking forgiveness from the person you've wronged, understanding how you've

hurt them, expressing genuine remorse, offering atonement, promising to not do

the hurtful thing again, and following through with the promise.

I've spent a lifetime forgiving my nada over and over and over and over again,

only to realize over and over again that her tears and remorse and promises are

very short-lived, and probably not based on anything other than her own fears of

abandonment. I don't think my nada has ever genuinely cared that she hurt me;

when she begs for forgiveness, its all about wiping her slate clean and becoming

perfect again.

So, my path to healing and peace may or may not include more forgiveness; at

this point another offering of forgiveness doesn't seem likely. But I truly

believe that I can achieve inner peace and joy and healing simply through

detachment, I feel I'm on my way there now. Just deciding, " ...no more... " is

very empowering for me.

I realize that each of us must seek his or her own path to peace and healing,

and if formally forgiving your nada works for you, then that's great. That's

what its all about, now: what works for each of us.

-Annie

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[Guest guest]

In my own case, I view what you're describing, Doug, as " detachment " , and

that's a good, healthy thing to achieve when someone is actively engaged in

attempting to hurt you.

For me, its simply deciding to not allow nada to abuse me any longer. Its

understanding and accepting that she is the way she is and can't or won't

change, and just... walking away from it and getting on with my own life. It's

not hate: I don't want to hurt her, and despite my fantasies of children with

high-powered lawyers, I don't want to " out " her, humiliate her, shame her, or

get revenge against her, either, but at the same time I can't pardon what she's

done to me and I don't love her; I simply don't want to be around her any more.

This has been a hard road for me, because my nada isn't all-bad. She's no

2-dimensional super-villain that everyone loves to boo and hiss. I know she has

a good side, I've felt her love for me, and I've spent my life aching to love

her without fear. But as a member at another support group put it, even if the

beautiful, delicious-looking cake has arsenic in it at only 2% of the total

ingredients, the cake will still kill you. No matter how many pretty sugar-roses

are on it, that 2% still makes it deadly.

So... I'm am at the point of... neutrality. Hate and Love both connect one

person to another, and I'm about reaching a state of non- connectedness, now.

My own personal definition of " forgiveness " has to do with a two-way

interaction. It has to do with realizing and caring that you've hurt someone,

seeking forgiveness from the person you've wronged, understanding how you've

hurt them, expressing genuine remorse, offering atonement, promising to not do

the hurtful thing again, and following through with the promise.

I've spent a lifetime forgiving my nada over and over and over and over again,

only to realize over and over again that her tears and remorse and promises are

very short-lived, and probably not based on anything other than her own fears of

abandonment. I don't think my nada has ever genuinely cared that she hurt me;

when she begs for forgiveness, its all about wiping her slate clean and becoming

perfect again.

So, my path to healing and peace may or may not include more forgiveness; at

this point another offering of forgiveness doesn't seem likely. But I truly

believe that I can achieve inner peace and joy and healing simply through

detachment, I feel I'm on my way there now. Just deciding, " ...no more... " is

very empowering for me.

I realize that each of us must seek his or her own path to peace and healing,

and if formally forgiving your nada works for you, then that's great. That's

what its all about, now: what works for each of us.

-Annie

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