Re: Seeking Advice

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> However, we are having difficulty convincing his doctors that this

> may be the cause. A CAT scan did not reveal anything unusual. They

> are wanting to do an ERCP early next week. We think that this is

> potentially very dangerous for a man of his age with diabetes,

> kidney failure, and now liver disease. We think that if it is

> cholestasis caused by allopurinol, an ERCP may well prove to be

> negative (cf. small duct PSC). We think that an ultrasound and an

> MRCP would be less invasive. What do you all think? Are we being too

> cautious? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

-- For what it's worth, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Sometimes the drs. seem to forget that the person behind the diseases

has extremely limited strength and stamina. You already know the

importance of being a strong advocate for your loved ones, and you have

very sound knowledge and instincts. Trust your gut feelings!!

When my father-in-law (at age 86) showed signs that his recurrent

bladder cancer had spread to the liver, the drs. immediately wanted to

do biopsies, chemo, radiation, PET scans, pulmonary function tests,

etc., etc. even though Dad had made it quite clear that he wanted no

further treatment. My husband and I tried our best to point out the

folly of subjecting an elderly man (with diabetes, and several recent

strokes in addition to the fast-moving cancer) to such a painful

procedure as a biopsy when it would not change the course of treatment.

Unfortunately, the drs. won out with the approval of my sister-in-law.

While I don't think his life was necessarily shortened by the additional

medical procedures, I do know he had a good deal more pain because of

them for those last 2-3 months of his life.

I'm a firm believer in keeping tests to the least invasive level possible.

Our prayers are with you and your entire family.

Regards,

Carolyn B. in SC

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> However, we are having difficulty convincing his doctors that this

> may be the cause. A CAT scan did not reveal anything unusual. They

> are wanting to do an ERCP early next week. We think that this is

> potentially very dangerous for a man of his age with diabetes,

> kidney failure, and now liver disease. We think that if it is

> cholestasis caused by allopurinol, an ERCP may well prove to be

> negative (cf. small duct PSC). We think that an ultrasound and an

> MRCP would be less invasive. What do you all think? Are we being too

> cautious? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

-- For what it's worth, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Sometimes the drs. seem to forget that the person behind the diseases

has extremely limited strength and stamina. You already know the

importance of being a strong advocate for your loved ones, and you have

very sound knowledge and instincts. Trust your gut feelings!!

When my father-in-law (at age 86) showed signs that his recurrent

bladder cancer had spread to the liver, the drs. immediately wanted to

do biopsies, chemo, radiation, PET scans, pulmonary function tests,

etc., etc. even though Dad had made it quite clear that he wanted no

further treatment. My husband and I tried our best to point out the

folly of subjecting an elderly man (with diabetes, and several recent

strokes in addition to the fast-moving cancer) to such a painful

procedure as a biopsy when it would not change the course of treatment.

Unfortunately, the drs. won out with the approval of my sister-in-law.

While I don't think his life was necessarily shortened by the additional

medical procedures, I do know he had a good deal more pain because of

them for those last 2-3 months of his life.

I'm a firm believer in keeping tests to the least invasive level possible.

Our prayers are with you and your entire family.

Regards,

Carolyn B. in SC

[Guest guest]

Dear Carolyn;

Thanks for the sound advice about trusting our instincts and gut

feelings! If it is all caused by allopurinol, we just don't see how

an ERCP can possibly help?

I wish I had read this article on the allopurinol hypersensitivity

syndrome:

http://www.ima.org.il/imaj/ar05oct-12.pdf

before Judy's father took this drug. It's pretty obvious that this

drug should not be given to patients with renal failure and poor

creatinine clearance who are also taking certain diuretics:

" The practice of giving urate-lowering agents to

patients with asymptomatic hyperuricemia and cardiovascular

disease or renal failure is no longer acceptable [1]. Danger

from allopurinol therapy increases, as previously shown, with

concomitant renal failure or with thiazide drug administration. "

I only hope that we stopped him from taking it soon enough, before

irreversible liver damage has taken place.

Best wishes,

Dave

(father of (20); PSC 07/03; UC 08/03)

[Guest guest]

Dear Carolyn;

Thanks for the sound advice about trusting our instincts and gut

feelings! If it is all caused by allopurinol, we just don't see how

an ERCP can possibly help?

I wish I had read this article on the allopurinol hypersensitivity

syndrome:

http://www.ima.org.il/imaj/ar05oct-12.pdf

before Judy's father took this drug. It's pretty obvious that this

drug should not be given to patients with renal failure and poor

creatinine clearance who are also taking certain diuretics:

" The practice of giving urate-lowering agents to

patients with asymptomatic hyperuricemia and cardiovascular

disease or renal failure is no longer acceptable [1]. Danger

from allopurinol therapy increases, as previously shown, with

concomitant renal failure or with thiazide drug administration. "

I only hope that we stopped him from taking it soon enough, before

irreversible liver damage has taken place.

Best wishes,

Dave

(father of (20); PSC 07/03; UC 08/03)

[Guest guest]

Dear Carolyn;

Thanks for the sound advice about trusting our instincts and gut

feelings! If it is all caused by allopurinol, we just don't see how

an ERCP can possibly help?

I wish I had read this article on the allopurinol hypersensitivity

syndrome:

http://www.ima.org.il/imaj/ar05oct-12.pdf

before Judy's father took this drug. It's pretty obvious that this

drug should not be given to patients with renal failure and poor

creatinine clearance who are also taking certain diuretics:

" The practice of giving urate-lowering agents to

patients with asymptomatic hyperuricemia and cardiovascular

disease or renal failure is no longer acceptable [1]. Danger

from allopurinol therapy increases, as previously shown, with

concomitant renal failure or with thiazide drug administration. "

I only hope that we stopped him from taking it soon enough, before

irreversible liver damage has taken place.

Best wishes,

Dave

(father of (20); PSC 07/03; UC 08/03)

[Guest guest]

,

I guess my

advice on this topic would be no matter the age start with MRCP. And as we

learned from Dr. Slivka make sure you get a good person doing the test and the

reading. (and of course that the machine is up to snuff.)

I would worry

about a pancreatitis issue in this case especially. Which when Noah was going

through it, we were warned that it could land him in the ICU. I think you are

thoughtfully proceeding and maybe should bring in another set of eyes for this

if you can’t get some sort of agreement.

Best Wishes,

Mom of Zoe (13) My very normal (teenager normal) soccer player;

Noah (8) Indeterminate colitis, PSC, Osteopenia (1-4 lumbar

vertebrae);

Aidan (4 1/2) Moderately-severe SNHL bilaterally

Recycle

Yourself

Become an

Organ Donor

[Guest guest]

,

I guess my

advice on this topic would be no matter the age start with MRCP. And as we

learned from Dr. Slivka make sure you get a good person doing the test and the

reading. (and of course that the machine is up to snuff.)

I would worry

about a pancreatitis issue in this case especially. Which when Noah was going

through it, we were warned that it could land him in the ICU. I think you are

thoughtfully proceeding and maybe should bring in another set of eyes for this

if you can’t get some sort of agreement.

Best Wishes,

Mom of Zoe (13) My very normal (teenager normal) soccer player;

Noah (8) Indeterminate colitis, PSC, Osteopenia (1-4 lumbar

vertebrae);

Aidan (4 1/2) Moderately-severe SNHL bilaterally

Recycle

Yourself

Become an

Organ Donor

[Guest guest]

,

I guess my

advice on this topic would be no matter the age start with MRCP. And as we

learned from Dr. Slivka make sure you get a good person doing the test and the

reading. (and of course that the machine is up to snuff.)

I would worry

about a pancreatitis issue in this case especially. Which when Noah was going

through it, we were warned that it could land him in the ICU. I think you are

thoughtfully proceeding and maybe should bring in another set of eyes for this

if you can’t get some sort of agreement.

Best Wishes,

Mom of Zoe (13) My very normal (teenager normal) soccer player;

Noah (8) Indeterminate colitis, PSC, Osteopenia (1-4 lumbar

vertebrae);

Aidan (4 1/2) Moderately-severe SNHL bilaterally

Recycle

Yourself

Become an

Organ Donor

[Guest guest]

>

> Dear Carolyn;

>

> Thanks for the sound advice about trusting our instincts and gut

> feelings! If it is all caused by allopurinol, we just don't see how

> an ERCP can possibly help?

For what it's worth, I concur with Carolyn, and you .

Pancreatitis sounds dreadful, and in this case it doesn't seem worth

the risk. Not because he's 86. How would the treatment change after

ERCP? If they are concerned about cancer, which doesn't seem likely

given the allopurinol history, they should start with imaging in any

case. MRCP may not have sufficient resolution for this condition?

Perhaps that's why they are not suggesting it, but they need to

explain themselves.

Martha (MA)

[Guest guest]

>

> Dear Carolyn;

>

> Thanks for the sound advice about trusting our instincts and gut

> feelings! If it is all caused by allopurinol, we just don't see how

> an ERCP can possibly help?

For what it's worth, I concur with Carolyn, and you .

Pancreatitis sounds dreadful, and in this case it doesn't seem worth

the risk. Not because he's 86. How would the treatment change after

ERCP? If they are concerned about cancer, which doesn't seem likely

given the allopurinol history, they should start with imaging in any

case. MRCP may not have sufficient resolution for this condition?

Perhaps that's why they are not suggesting it, but they need to

explain themselves.

Martha (MA)

[Guest guest]

- I'm guessing that your wife's father, with kidney failure

secondary to long standing diabetes, probably has other diseases as

well, like hypertension and heart problems, and at 86 probably others.

I would ask his doctor, or a good internal medicine physician, to

carefully review all of his medicines to be sure of interactions and

side effects (some diuretics - water pills, can cause gout). Liver

function, as you know, can vary because of a multitude of factors,

including medication - including diabetes and cholesterol meds, and

with multiple complex medical diagnosis. I would want close scrutiny

of all possible causes before doing invasive testing with potentially

serious complications.

I agree with Carolyn too - to again discuss (or initiate discussion if

not done in the past) with your father-in-law, his doctor, and with

other close family members) - general discussion on what are his

values and how does he define his quality of life - what has meaning

to him? At this time in his life with his current physical health, in

the " big picture " - does he want invasive testing or intervention if

it could prolong his life? Or only if it would prolong and improve

the quality of his life? And are the risks of a certain procedure

worth what you might gain by doing the procedure?

At his age, with his complex, chronic illnesses that do not have a

cure, he may want to focus on comfort - minimize symptoms, control

pain, and have the best quality of life possible for the rest of his

life. This is not giving up, this is choosing the focus on his care -

and controlling pain and symtoms often is challenging and takes

effort. It is also supporting your father-in-law in his choices and

values at this time in his life. Some older people have suffered

greatly for many years with their chronic illness and truly do want to

be comfortable, but not stuck and tested without gaining better

quality of living.

Again, I'm wordy, but his situation is more complex. I wouldn't just

focus on one medication, but would try to sort out multiple issues.

Best wishes to all of you. And thanks for thinking of us Mom's today.

You are thoughtful and so incredibly knowledgable. I know others

would agree with me, you offer all of us so much information and

support - Thank You.

Joanne

(, Ca; mom of - nearly 16, UC/PSC 2-06)

[Guest guest]

- I'm guessing that your wife's father, with kidney failure

secondary to long standing diabetes, probably has other diseases as

well, like hypertension and heart problems, and at 86 probably others.

I would ask his doctor, or a good internal medicine physician, to

carefully review all of his medicines to be sure of interactions and

side effects (some diuretics - water pills, can cause gout). Liver

function, as you know, can vary because of a multitude of factors,

including medication - including diabetes and cholesterol meds, and

with multiple complex medical diagnosis. I would want close scrutiny

of all possible causes before doing invasive testing with potentially

serious complications.

I agree with Carolyn too - to again discuss (or initiate discussion if

not done in the past) with your father-in-law, his doctor, and with

other close family members) - general discussion on what are his

values and how does he define his quality of life - what has meaning

to him? At this time in his life with his current physical health, in

the " big picture " - does he want invasive testing or intervention if

it could prolong his life? Or only if it would prolong and improve

the quality of his life? And are the risks of a certain procedure

worth what you might gain by doing the procedure?

At his age, with his complex, chronic illnesses that do not have a

cure, he may want to focus on comfort - minimize symptoms, control

pain, and have the best quality of life possible for the rest of his

life. This is not giving up, this is choosing the focus on his care -

and controlling pain and symtoms often is challenging and takes

effort. It is also supporting your father-in-law in his choices and

values at this time in his life. Some older people have suffered

greatly for many years with their chronic illness and truly do want to

be comfortable, but not stuck and tested without gaining better

quality of living.

Again, I'm wordy, but his situation is more complex. I wouldn't just

focus on one medication, but would try to sort out multiple issues.

Best wishes to all of you. And thanks for thinking of us Mom's today.

You are thoughtful and so incredibly knowledgable. I know others

would agree with me, you offer all of us so much information and

support - Thank You.

Joanne

(, Ca; mom of - nearly 16, UC/PSC 2-06)

[Guest guest]

Judy's father is 92 this year. He was diagnosed with prostate cancer when

he was 85 after surgery for blocked carotid arteries. They picked a less

aggressive treatment for his prostate cancer (hormone injections) vs.

surgery. It has served him well, obviously.

Judy also had a co-worker's father who was admitted with jaundice. In his

case, gallstones were the issue, exacerbated by dehydration. He was back to

normal within a couple of days after the gallstones were removed.

Ultrasounds are cheap and can be quite telling. I think your caution is

well founded, and your suggestion sounds reasonable to me. CTs can be

misleading, depending on the characteristics of what you're trying to image.

In my case, neither MRI nor CT showed the bone overgrowth on my vertebrae

(pinching a nerve) - too porous to be imaged. I could see porosity in

gallstones being similar, but easily seen with ultrasound. I'm surprised

they haven't tried that first. I had ultrasounds each time prior to an

ERCP.

ERCPs are " minimally invasive " (!), but the side effects can be debilitating

(pancreatitis, in my case). I wouldn't want to go through it at that age

unless other, less invasive procedures are tried first.

I think you're on the right track, but the cause may be simpler than

allopurinol-induced cholestasis.

Arne

54 - UC 1977, PSC 2000

Alive and (mostly) well in Minnesota

-----Original Message-----

From: [mailto: ] On

Behalf Of

....A CAT scan did not reveal anything unusual. They are wanting to do an

ERCP early next week. We think that this is potentially very dangerous for a

man of his age with diabetes, kidney failure, and now liver disease. We

think that if it is cholestasis caused by allopurinol, an ERCP may well

prove to be negative (cf. small duct PSC). We think that an ultrasound and

an MRCP would be less invasive. What do you all think? Are we being too

cautious? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,

Dave

(father of (20); PSC 07/03; UC 08/03)

[Guest guest]

Judy's father is 92 this year. He was diagnosed with prostate cancer when

he was 85 after surgery for blocked carotid arteries. They picked a less

aggressive treatment for his prostate cancer (hormone injections) vs.

surgery. It has served him well, obviously.

Judy also had a co-worker's father who was admitted with jaundice. In his

case, gallstones were the issue, exacerbated by dehydration. He was back to

normal within a couple of days after the gallstones were removed.

Ultrasounds are cheap and can be quite telling. I think your caution is

well founded, and your suggestion sounds reasonable to me. CTs can be

misleading, depending on the characteristics of what you're trying to image.

In my case, neither MRI nor CT showed the bone overgrowth on my vertebrae

(pinching a nerve) - too porous to be imaged. I could see porosity in

gallstones being similar, but easily seen with ultrasound. I'm surprised

they haven't tried that first. I had ultrasounds each time prior to an

ERCP.

ERCPs are " minimally invasive " (!), but the side effects can be debilitating

(pancreatitis, in my case). I wouldn't want to go through it at that age

unless other, less invasive procedures are tried first.

I think you're on the right track, but the cause may be simpler than

allopurinol-induced cholestasis.

Arne

54 - UC 1977, PSC 2000

Alive and (mostly) well in Minnesota

-----Original Message-----

From: [mailto: ] On

Behalf Of

....A CAT scan did not reveal anything unusual. They are wanting to do an

ERCP early next week. We think that this is potentially very dangerous for a

man of his age with diabetes, kidney failure, and now liver disease. We

think that if it is cholestasis caused by allopurinol, an ERCP may well

prove to be negative (cf. small duct PSC). We think that an ultrasound and

an MRCP would be less invasive. What do you all think? Are we being too

cautious? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,

Dave

(father of (20); PSC 07/03; UC 08/03)

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I wish I had the medical expertise to offer you advice, because you always

have the perfect wise words for all of us. I agree with everyone who has

sent you answers, encouraging you to follow your gut and err on the side of

caution for your father-in-law. Judy and you both have the knowledge and

good judgment to make the right decisions for your father-in-law, and he is

so lucky to have you both as his advocates. Don and I are sending

heartfelt prayers your way.

Ricky

Re: Seeking advice

- I'm guessing that your wife's father, with kidney failure

secondary to long standing diabetes, probably has other diseases as

well, like hypertension and heart problems, and at 86 probably others.

Joanne

(, Ca; mom of - nearly 16, UC/PSC 2-06)

[Guest guest]

Dr. Reitman in Hollywood is wonderful, my kids have been seeing her for years!

[Guest guest]

Dr. Reitman in Hollywood is wonderful, my kids have been seeing her for years!

[Guest guest]

Hi & welcome to the list. There is no definitive answer to your questions.

I think it really depends on the extent of BPD & abuse. For example with

myself, my BPD nada (mother) was physically & verbally/emotionally abusive.

For me, it has caused problems with depression & complex post traumatic

stress disorder.

I think the best thing you can do to prevent long term effects & to help the

children cope would be to give them a safe outlet to vent, such as therapy.

This will help them to define & strengthen their boundaries and know how to

cope with not only a BPD parent but also other difficult life situations.

It also gives them a safe place where they can talk about anything without

feeling like they are pitting one parent against the other. Aside from that,

providing them with a normal, safe & loving home would go a long way to help

too.

I'm a child of a BPD and I'm also the future step mom to 2 kids with a most

likely BPD mother. This is what my fiance & I are doing to try and make

sure the kids are safe and healthy... his daughter is in therapy, his son is

going for an evaluation and we try to provide normalcy here along with love,

attention & loving discipline.

It is by no means the be all end all to a situation like this. But in my

humble opinion, it is a good start.

Lots of luck, Mia

>

[Guest guest]

Hi & welcome to the list. There is no definitive answer to your questions.

I think it really depends on the extent of BPD & abuse. For example with

myself, my BPD nada (mother) was physically & verbally/emotionally abusive.

For me, it has caused problems with depression & complex post traumatic

stress disorder.

I think the best thing you can do to prevent long term effects & to help the

children cope would be to give them a safe outlet to vent, such as therapy.

This will help them to define & strengthen their boundaries and know how to

cope with not only a BPD parent but also other difficult life situations.

It also gives them a safe place where they can talk about anything without

feeling like they are pitting one parent against the other. Aside from that,

providing them with a normal, safe & loving home would go a long way to help

too.

I'm a child of a BPD and I'm also the future step mom to 2 kids with a most

likely BPD mother. This is what my fiance & I are doing to try and make

sure the kids are safe and healthy... his daughter is in therapy, his son is

going for an evaluation and we try to provide normalcy here along with love,

attention & loving discipline.

It is by no means the be all end all to a situation like this. But in my

humble opinion, it is a good start.

Lots of luck, Mia

>

[Guest guest]

>

> How does having a parent with BPD affect someone in childhood, and then as an

adult? In our situation, since the children have two homes, what can my husband

and I do to protect the children from >these effects? This may be impossible -

so what can we do to >minimize those effects?

Hi, glad you found this board!

There are quite a lot of ways that having a PD'd parent might affect us. We

become highly anxious and depressed, we suffer from PTSD and nightmares, we are

often extremely passive or extremely aggressive, we develop chronic physical

pain (headaches, fibromyalgia, etc.), we have very weak personal boundaries and

become vulnerable to abuse from other people, and we develop a sense of chronic

guilt, among other things. Some of us, if we have no recourse or support, go on

to develop BPD or other personality disorders ourselves, or at least learn many

of the PD behaviors. Keep browsing through the messages to get an idea of what

life is like for us KOs (Kids Of Borderline parents), or you can also use the

search feature if you have a more specific topic you'd like to read about.

A parent is one of the most powerful influences in a child's life, and children

have a need to believe that their parent knows the truth about them. It is

incredibly damaging having an emotionally and psychologically (or otherwise)

abusive parent, because we internalize the messages we receive from our parent,

coming to believe that we are responsible for ensuring our pwBPD's happiness and

also the cause of all their misery. It takes a lot of work to un-learn all of

the unhealthy things our parents taught us to believe.

Your SSs are so incredibly lucky to have caregivers who are invested in their

well-being, and to get started on that work at such a young age. Knowing that

someone believes them will be so helpful for them. I get the feeling that most

of us here never had that kind of validation or support--I know I didn't.

IMO, the most important message you can give the boys is to tell them it's not

their fault. Even if they've done something maybe they shouldn't have, they are

good people and it's not their fault when their mother is upset. We are

bombarded with messages that tell us otherwise, and we really do need to hear

the truth over and over until we can believe it. (Did you ever see " Good Will

Hunting? " )

The next most important message will be that you and your husband love them and

want them to tell you when anyone makes them uncomfortable or upset or treats

them unfairly. They will need to know that someone believes them and that they

have a safe place to talk.

They will need to feel free to share their thoughts and feelings about their

mother, and to have someone who truly hears them and can validate their

experience. They will need to be taught tools for how to safely say no to their

mother when she is inappropriate, how to love her without enabling her, and how

to develop and maintain their own identities. They may feel more secure if they

have help and know it is okay to make a plan for how to escape when they do not

feel safe.

Have you and your husband ever given them the opportunity to visit with a

Therapist? If not, it could be very helpful. A trained therapist will also be

able to help guide you and your husband as you try to provide a safe and

nurturing environment where the boys can grow and heal. That would probably be

one of the best resources you could pursue for them.

Thank you for caring, thank you for reaching out for them. It may very well save

them.

KT

[Guest guest]

>

> How does having a parent with BPD affect someone in childhood, and then as an

adult? In our situation, since the children have two homes, what can my husband

and I do to protect the children from >these effects? This may be impossible -

so what can we do to >minimize those effects?

Hi, glad you found this board!

There are quite a lot of ways that having a PD'd parent might affect us. We

become highly anxious and depressed, we suffer from PTSD and nightmares, we are

often extremely passive or extremely aggressive, we develop chronic physical

pain (headaches, fibromyalgia, etc.), we have very weak personal boundaries and

become vulnerable to abuse from other people, and we develop a sense of chronic

guilt, among other things. Some of us, if we have no recourse or support, go on

to develop BPD or other personality disorders ourselves, or at least learn many

of the PD behaviors. Keep browsing through the messages to get an idea of what

life is like for us KOs (Kids Of Borderline parents), or you can also use the

search feature if you have a more specific topic you'd like to read about.

A parent is one of the most powerful influences in a child's life, and children

have a need to believe that their parent knows the truth about them. It is

incredibly damaging having an emotionally and psychologically (or otherwise)

abusive parent, because we internalize the messages we receive from our parent,

coming to believe that we are responsible for ensuring our pwBPD's happiness and

also the cause of all their misery. It takes a lot of work to un-learn all of

the unhealthy things our parents taught us to believe.

Your SSs are so incredibly lucky to have caregivers who are invested in their

well-being, and to get started on that work at such a young age. Knowing that

someone believes them will be so helpful for them. I get the feeling that most

of us here never had that kind of validation or support--I know I didn't.

IMO, the most important message you can give the boys is to tell them it's not

their fault. Even if they've done something maybe they shouldn't have, they are

good people and it's not their fault when their mother is upset. We are

bombarded with messages that tell us otherwise, and we really do need to hear

the truth over and over until we can believe it. (Did you ever see " Good Will

Hunting? " )

The next most important message will be that you and your husband love them and

want them to tell you when anyone makes them uncomfortable or upset or treats

them unfairly. They will need to know that someone believes them and that they

have a safe place to talk.

They will need to feel free to share their thoughts and feelings about their

mother, and to have someone who truly hears them and can validate their

experience. They will need to be taught tools for how to safely say no to their

mother when she is inappropriate, how to love her without enabling her, and how

to develop and maintain their own identities. They may feel more secure if they

have help and know it is okay to make a plan for how to escape when they do not

feel safe.

Have you and your husband ever given them the opportunity to visit with a

Therapist? If not, it could be very helpful. A trained therapist will also be

able to help guide you and your husband as you try to provide a safe and

nurturing environment where the boys can grow and heal. That would probably be

one of the best resources you could pursue for them.

Thank you for caring, thank you for reaching out for them. It may very well save

them.

KT

[Guest guest]

I speak as the adult child of a BPD mom.

I ll try to answer your questions.

I recently found this list serv and am looking for the following

information/advice:

>

> How does having a parent with BPD affect someone in childhood, and

then as an adult?

Being raised by, or around , a BPD parent is one of the most profoundly

debilitating, traumatic things that can occur to a child. It

emotionally wounds them , very deeply. If you spend any time on this

board, and read posts of some of the long timers, you will find that

virtually none of us are without a therapist. For decades, perhaps for

life.

We struggle with depression, anxiety, addictions, sexual dysfunctions,

extreme co dependency issues. Most of us were raised by it, and had no

idea what was being done to us till decades later. So as

impressionable children we were subject to the constant barrage of fear,

obligation, and guilt that a BP parent will inflict on children.

Instead of being nurtured by them, we were the object of fulfillment of

their bottomless pit of emotional needs. It left us convinced of what

a failure we were, because Mom made it clear we were here to take care

of her, then we couldnt.

Oh, and jolly old fun, the suicide attempts. Mine would wait for me to

come home from school, perfectly timed mind you, never a hint of it with

any adult around, then scream and lunge for the pill bottles. She would

keep this up , forcing me to wrest them from her hand, while crying

hysterically that I was the only one who loved her, that she would die

if I ever stopped loving her, then beg me to tell her I loved her.

I grew to hate being touched by her. It was difficult in the extreme to

say I loved her, because it never felt like just what I wanted to say,

but rather something I knew she expected and demanded.

She was highly inappropriate in sexual matters. This was both in terms

of what she did around me with her boyfriends, what she talked about to

me, and in front of me, and age inappropriate information she forced on

me. It amounted to emotional incest.

You will find that a good number of us, most of us, have very similar

stories.

In our situation, since the children have two homes, what can my husband

and I do to protect the children from these effects?

Look at bpdcentral.com, and order the CD set You re My World.

http://www.bpdcentral.com/cds/youremyworld.php

It is an excellent resource for all the pitfalls of your, or similar

situations.

But just from a very personal perspective, based on what I wish someone

would have done in my case, let me add the following.

If you have the slightest affection and care for those poor little boys,

and want to save them from a truly awful life and being twisted severly

in their emotions, then get a lawyer, get a therapist, sell the house

if you have to, and get them the hell away from that BPD mom. Go back

to court, get the custody modified. Do what it takes.

It is awful. You will never know how bad, for she will never show you

what they are subjected to, and they are children, who love their mom,

and think they are supposed to love their mom, no matter what. But you

are an adult. You are gaining an understanding of just what BPD is. Get

them out of there.

My unwavering rule of thumb for all advice I give here re children and

BPD. s is NEVER leave a child alone with a bpd. If you want her to

visit, fine, but never alone with them.

This may be impossible - so what can we do to minimize those effects?

If that proves impossible, or if you are not willing to take such a step

yet, then find a good psychologist or therapist who specializes in

children, make sure they also understand BPD, and that they have a mom

with a diagnosis with whom they spend time, and get them some

professional help now.

> Thank you so much in advance.

I know my advice may seem rather strong. You ll find a number will

jump in and second it. No one who hasnt lived with it can appreciate

how thoroughly it can screw you up. All of us lament and bemoan one

fact over and over.

Why, if they could seem that mom was so screwy, that something was

wrong with her, didnt some of the other adults in my life come and

rescue me? Why didnt anyone care enough to get me the hell out of

there.

I promise you , someday, those boys will wonder the same thing.

Ok, direct from the gut. You asked my advice and counsel, and there it

is.

Good luck

Doug

>

[Guest guest]

I speak as the adult child of a BPD mom.

I ll try to answer your questions.

I recently found this list serv and am looking for the following

information/advice:

>

> How does having a parent with BPD affect someone in childhood, and

then as an adult?

Being raised by, or around , a BPD parent is one of the most profoundly

debilitating, traumatic things that can occur to a child. It

emotionally wounds them , very deeply. If you spend any time on this

board, and read posts of some of the long timers, you will find that

virtually none of us are without a therapist. For decades, perhaps for

life.

We struggle with depression, anxiety, addictions, sexual dysfunctions,

extreme co dependency issues. Most of us were raised by it, and had no

idea what was being done to us till decades later. So as

impressionable children we were subject to the constant barrage of fear,

obligation, and guilt that a BP parent will inflict on children.

Instead of being nurtured by them, we were the object of fulfillment of

their bottomless pit of emotional needs. It left us convinced of what

a failure we were, because Mom made it clear we were here to take care

of her, then we couldnt.

Oh, and jolly old fun, the suicide attempts. Mine would wait for me to

come home from school, perfectly timed mind you, never a hint of it with

any adult around, then scream and lunge for the pill bottles. She would

keep this up , forcing me to wrest them from her hand, while crying

hysterically that I was the only one who loved her, that she would die

if I ever stopped loving her, then beg me to tell her I loved her.

I grew to hate being touched by her. It was difficult in the extreme to

say I loved her, because it never felt like just what I wanted to say,

but rather something I knew she expected and demanded.

She was highly inappropriate in sexual matters. This was both in terms

of what she did around me with her boyfriends, what she talked about to

me, and in front of me, and age inappropriate information she forced on

me. It amounted to emotional incest.

You will find that a good number of us, most of us, have very similar

stories.

In our situation, since the children have two homes, what can my husband

and I do to protect the children from these effects?

Look at bpdcentral.com, and order the CD set You re My World.

http://www.bpdcentral.com/cds/youremyworld.php

It is an excellent resource for all the pitfalls of your, or similar

situations.

But just from a very personal perspective, based on what I wish someone

would have done in my case, let me add the following.

If you have the slightest affection and care for those poor little boys,

and want to save them from a truly awful life and being twisted severly

in their emotions, then get a lawyer, get a therapist, sell the house

if you have to, and get them the hell away from that BPD mom. Go back

to court, get the custody modified. Do what it takes.

It is awful. You will never know how bad, for she will never show you

what they are subjected to, and they are children, who love their mom,

and think they are supposed to love their mom, no matter what. But you

are an adult. You are gaining an understanding of just what BPD is. Get

them out of there.

My unwavering rule of thumb for all advice I give here re children and

BPD. s is NEVER leave a child alone with a bpd. If you want her to

visit, fine, but never alone with them.

This may be impossible - so what can we do to minimize those effects?

If that proves impossible, or if you are not willing to take such a step

yet, then find a good psychologist or therapist who specializes in

children, make sure they also understand BPD, and that they have a mom

with a diagnosis with whom they spend time, and get them some

professional help now.

> Thank you so much in advance.

I know my advice may seem rather strong. You ll find a number will

jump in and second it. No one who hasnt lived with it can appreciate

how thoroughly it can screw you up. All of us lament and bemoan one

fact over and over.

Why, if they could seem that mom was so screwy, that something was

wrong with her, didnt some of the other adults in my life come and

rescue me? Why didnt anyone care enough to get me the hell out of

there.

I promise you , someday, those boys will wonder the same thing.

Ok, direct from the gut. You asked my advice and counsel, and there it

is.

Good luck

Doug

>

[Guest guest]

I speak as the adult child of a BPD mom.

I ll try to answer your questions.

I recently found this list serv and am looking for the following

information/advice:

>

> How does having a parent with BPD affect someone in childhood, and

then as an adult?

Being raised by, or around , a BPD parent is one of the most profoundly

debilitating, traumatic things that can occur to a child. It

emotionally wounds them , very deeply. If you spend any time on this

board, and read posts of some of the long timers, you will find that

virtually none of us are without a therapist. For decades, perhaps for

life.

We struggle with depression, anxiety, addictions, sexual dysfunctions,

extreme co dependency issues. Most of us were raised by it, and had no

idea what was being done to us till decades later. So as

impressionable children we were subject to the constant barrage of fear,

obligation, and guilt that a BP parent will inflict on children.

Instead of being nurtured by them, we were the object of fulfillment of

their bottomless pit of emotional needs. It left us convinced of what

a failure we were, because Mom made it clear we were here to take care

of her, then we couldnt.

Oh, and jolly old fun, the suicide attempts. Mine would wait for me to

come home from school, perfectly timed mind you, never a hint of it with

any adult around, then scream and lunge for the pill bottles. She would

keep this up , forcing me to wrest them from her hand, while crying

hysterically that I was the only one who loved her, that she would die

if I ever stopped loving her, then beg me to tell her I loved her.

I grew to hate being touched by her. It was difficult in the extreme to

say I loved her, because it never felt like just what I wanted to say,

but rather something I knew she expected and demanded.

She was highly inappropriate in sexual matters. This was both in terms

of what she did around me with her boyfriends, what she talked about to

me, and in front of me, and age inappropriate information she forced on

me. It amounted to emotional incest.

You will find that a good number of us, most of us, have very similar

stories.

In our situation, since the children have two homes, what can my husband

and I do to protect the children from these effects?

Look at bpdcentral.com, and order the CD set You re My World.

http://www.bpdcentral.com/cds/youremyworld.php

It is an excellent resource for all the pitfalls of your, or similar

situations.

But just from a very personal perspective, based on what I wish someone

would have done in my case, let me add the following.

If you have the slightest affection and care for those poor little boys,

and want to save them from a truly awful life and being twisted severly

in their emotions, then get a lawyer, get a therapist, sell the house

if you have to, and get them the hell away from that BPD mom. Go back

to court, get the custody modified. Do what it takes.

It is awful. You will never know how bad, for she will never show you

what they are subjected to, and they are children, who love their mom,

and think they are supposed to love their mom, no matter what. But you

are an adult. You are gaining an understanding of just what BPD is. Get

them out of there.

My unwavering rule of thumb for all advice I give here re children and

BPD. s is NEVER leave a child alone with a bpd. If you want her to

visit, fine, but never alone with them.

This may be impossible - so what can we do to minimize those effects?

If that proves impossible, or if you are not willing to take such a step

yet, then find a good psychologist or therapist who specializes in

children, make sure they also understand BPD, and that they have a mom

with a diagnosis with whom they spend time, and get them some

professional help now.

> Thank you so much in advance.

I know my advice may seem rather strong. You ll find a number will

jump in and second it. No one who hasnt lived with it can appreciate

how thoroughly it can screw you up. All of us lament and bemoan one

fact over and over.

Why, if they could seem that mom was so screwy, that something was

wrong with her, didnt some of the other adults in my life come and

rescue me? Why didnt anyone care enough to get me the hell out of

there.

I promise you , someday, those boys will wonder the same thing.

Ok, direct from the gut. You asked my advice and counsel, and there it

is.

Good luck

Doug

>

[Guest guest]

I second Doug's advice to rescue children from an undiagnosed, untreated,

severely emotionally dysregulated, abusive or negligent, volatile, punitive,

blame-projecting, manipulative, empathyless, personality-disordered parent.

If getting sole custody is simply not possible, then (a) get the children into a

good therapist ASAP: an experienced, compassionate therapist who understands the

kind of damage having a severely bpd mom does to kids and ( provide the

children with the most emotionally stable, calm, rational, predictable,

consistent, and loving home you can humanly provide.

If you can't get sole custody, then I suggest sending the boys to live at a

boarding school if that will get them away from their abusive mother more

effectively, and sending them to a sleep-away summer camp as well. Anything

that breaks their daily exposure to abuse by their mother is better than their

being trapped with her half the time.

When they're with you, the children need to know for the sake of their own

mental health and emotional growth that they are good kids, and they did not

make their mother mentally ill. Tell them that no child deserves abuse or

neglect. The boys will need to hear that and feel that reassurance from you over

and over and over again: that they are good kids, and they aren't to blame for

their mother's personality disorder.

These boys will very likely feel torn in two, because on the one hand they are

hardwired to be loyal to and protective of their mother, even though she is

abusive to them and shredding their sense of self-worth. Its a paradox called

" trauma bonding. "

You'll have your work cut out for you to try to counteract the emotional damage

they're sustaining without going in the opposite direction (which is equally

damaging) and spoiling them: overindulging them; giving praise for no effort;

giving no consequences for bad behavior.

I also suggest getting yourself as educated as possible RE what personality

disorder is by reading books like " Understanding The Borderline Mother " and

" Surviving A Borderline Parent " . Read up about trauma bonding. Read up about

the issues of raising children when they've had a history of abuse/neglect.

Maybe take some parenting classes.

I hope that helps.

-Annie

> I know my advice may seem rather strong. You ll find a number will

> jump in and second it. No one who hasnt lived with it can appreciate

> how thoroughly it can screw you up. All of us lament and bemoan one

> fact over and over.

>

> Why, if they could seem that mom was so screwy, that something was

> wrong with her, didnt some of the other adults in my life come and

> rescue me? Why didnt anyone care enough to get me the hell out of

> there.

>

> I promise you , someday, those boys will wonder the same thing.

>

> Ok, direct from the gut. You asked my advice and counsel, and there it

> is.

>

> Good luck

>

> Doug

> >

>

>

>

>