Re: KO Anger: still politically incorrect, it would seem

[Guest guest]

I would have liked to read that thread. A similar thing happened on the general

WTO thread. A woman came on a thread about something and posted a general

comment that everyone was being very negative about BPD and she was here to find

help and positive reinforcement as she tries to stay with her BPD partner. She

came from the point of view of someone who does get to choose whether to stay or

go, and had no awareness at all of people who are blood family members,

especially KOs, and that we don't always get a choice. At least not until we

turn 18--and that means we have to put up with a lot of abuse that we can't say

anything about because a lot of the time no one believes us or downplays the

situation, like we are bad children and are just complaining about being

disciplined or something.

Other commenters called her out on the fact that a lot of us don't have a safe

place to vent or express our anger, and she recognized that she came off as

callous. The conversation did take a turn and others started discussing

successful strategies for staying with a partner, but I think as KOs we do get

overlooked as victims of their abuse sometimes.

Coming to terms with the illness versus the person with the illness is something

I'm having a hard time dealing with right now. And to say I don't have a right

to my anger or that it's unfounded, are you KIDDING me?! When my mother attacked

me on Christmas, my anger isn't justified at her attempt to her me? My anger

towards her for that isn't justified? Isn't legitimate? That's ridiculous. Being

angry and being vengeful are two different things.

Expressing anger in healthy ways is essential to being a healthy person. To

suppress our anger will put us in the same boat as our BPD relatives--who cannot

express emotions appropriately.

[Guest guest]

Can you paste them for us to see Miss Annie, or does that violate some sort

of agreement? Thanks

>

>

> I would have liked to read that thread. A similar thing happened on the

> general WTO thread. A woman came on a thread about something and posted a

> general comment that everyone was being very negative about BPD and she was

> here to find help and positive reinforcement as she tries to stay with her

> BPD partner. She came from the point of view of someone who does get to

> choose whether to stay or go, and had no awareness at all of people who are

> blood family members, especially KOs, and that we don't always get a choice.

> At least not until we turn 18--and that means we have to put up with a lot

> of abuse that we can't say anything about because a lot of the time no one

> believes us or downplays the situation, like we are bad children and are

> just complaining about being disciplined or something.

>

> Other commenters called her out on the fact that a lot of us don't have a

> safe place to vent or express our anger, and she recognized that she came

> off as callous. The conversation did take a turn and others started

> discussing successful strategies for staying with a partner, but I think as

> KOs we do get overlooked as victims of their abuse sometimes.

>

> Coming to terms with the illness versus the person with the illness is

> something I'm having a hard time dealing with right now. And to say I don't

> have a right to my anger or that it's unfounded, are you KIDDING me?! When

> my mother attacked me on Christmas, my anger isn't justified at her attempt

> to her me? My anger towards her for that isn't justified? Isn't legitimate?

> That's ridiculous. Being angry and being vengeful are two different things.

>

> Expressing anger in healthy ways is essential to being a healthy person. To

> suppress our anger will put us in the same boat as our BPD relatives--who

> cannot express emotions appropriately.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Can you paste them for us to see Miss Annie, or does that violate some sort

of agreement? Thanks

>

>

> I would have liked to read that thread. A similar thing happened on the

> general WTO thread. A woman came on a thread about something and posted a

> general comment that everyone was being very negative about BPD and she was

> here to find help and positive reinforcement as she tries to stay with her

> BPD partner. She came from the point of view of someone who does get to

> choose whether to stay or go, and had no awareness at all of people who are

> blood family members, especially KOs, and that we don't always get a choice.

> At least not until we turn 18--and that means we have to put up with a lot

> of abuse that we can't say anything about because a lot of the time no one

> believes us or downplays the situation, like we are bad children and are

> just complaining about being disciplined or something.

>

> Other commenters called her out on the fact that a lot of us don't have a

> safe place to vent or express our anger, and she recognized that she came

> off as callous. The conversation did take a turn and others started

> discussing successful strategies for staying with a partner, but I think as

> KOs we do get overlooked as victims of their abuse sometimes.

>

> Coming to terms with the illness versus the person with the illness is

> something I'm having a hard time dealing with right now. And to say I don't

> have a right to my anger or that it's unfounded, are you KIDDING me?! When

> my mother attacked me on Christmas, my anger isn't justified at her attempt

> to her me? My anger towards her for that isn't justified? Isn't legitimate?

> That's ridiculous. Being angry and being vengeful are two different things.

>

> Expressing anger in healthy ways is essential to being a healthy person. To

> suppress our anger will put us in the same boat as our BPD relatives--who

> cannot express emotions appropriately.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure I have the right to re-post the bulk of an entire thread that

originated at another support group (Randi?) but I'll share that your sentiment

of " Are you kidding me? " was expressed often in various ways by various members.

I share that sentiment!

There are many such groups on the Internet now, some are mixed: for both those

with bpd and the family members of those with bpd, and others are exclusively

for one or the other. Its the mixed forums that seem to have generated the most

intense (and in some cases vitriolic) debate.

It just seems logical to me to separate the groups, because if one has bpd and

is easily triggered by criticism, then reading about horrific abuse and injuries

perpetrated by those with bpd and the resulting righteous indignation by the

victims would indeed be highly triggering.

However, I do think that its important for us adult survivors of child abuse to

speak out in public forums about the fact that our bpd/npd or Cluster B parents

did commit emotional and physical and even sexual abuse on us. According to

Randi (the list owner here and author of Stop Walking On Eggshells and other

books) high-functioning bpds are *virtually invisible* to the psychiatric

community because they don't seek treatment, and these high-functioning

personality-disordered parents are the ones committing the insidious, covert

abuse that does just as much damage (if not more) than the overt, obvious

physical abusers.

So, when you get a chance on a public forum like the comments section at the NY

Times RE an article about bpd, or at Psychology Today, or other public e-zines,

speak up. The general population and the psychiatric community needs to be more

aware that much child abuse is perpetrated by mentally ill parents (including

bpd parents) and alcoholic/substance abusing parents who may also be very

high-functioning, so its covert abuse, and the children endure it, alone and

voiceless.

-Annie

>

> I would have liked to read that thread. A similar thing happened on the

general WTO thread. A woman came on a thread about something and posted a

general comment that everyone was being very negative about BPD and she was here

to find help and positive reinforcement as she tries to stay with her BPD

partner. She came from the point of view of someone who does get to choose

whether to stay or go, and had no awareness at all of people who are blood

family members, especially KOs, and that we don't always get a choice. At least

not until we turn 18--and that means we have to put up with a lot of abuse that

we can't say anything about because a lot of the time no one believes us or

downplays the situation, like we are bad children and are just complaining about

being disciplined or something.

>

> Other commenters called her out on the fact that a lot of us don't have a safe

place to vent or express our anger, and she recognized that she came off as

callous. The conversation did take a turn and others started discussing

successful strategies for staying with a partner, but I think as KOs we do get

overlooked as victims of their abuse sometimes.

>

> Coming to terms with the illness versus the person with the illness is

something I'm having a hard time dealing with right now. And to say I don't have

a right to my anger or that it's unfounded, are you KIDDING me?! When my mother

attacked me on Christmas, my anger isn't justified at her attempt to her me? My

anger towards her for that isn't justified? Isn't legitimate? That's ridiculous.

Being angry and being vengeful are two different things.

>

> Expressing anger in healthy ways is essential to being a healthy person. To

suppress our anger will put us in the same boat as our BPD relatives--who cannot

express emotions appropriately.

>

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure I have the right to re-post the bulk of an entire thread that

originated at another support group (Randi?) but I'll share that your sentiment

of " Are you kidding me? " was expressed often in various ways by various members.

I share that sentiment!

There are many such groups on the Internet now, some are mixed: for both those

with bpd and the family members of those with bpd, and others are exclusively

for one or the other. Its the mixed forums that seem to have generated the most

intense (and in some cases vitriolic) debate.

It just seems logical to me to separate the groups, because if one has bpd and

is easily triggered by criticism, then reading about horrific abuse and injuries

perpetrated by those with bpd and the resulting righteous indignation by the

victims would indeed be highly triggering.

However, I do think that its important for us adult survivors of child abuse to

speak out in public forums about the fact that our bpd/npd or Cluster B parents

did commit emotional and physical and even sexual abuse on us. According to

Randi (the list owner here and author of Stop Walking On Eggshells and other

books) high-functioning bpds are *virtually invisible* to the psychiatric

community because they don't seek treatment, and these high-functioning

personality-disordered parents are the ones committing the insidious, covert

abuse that does just as much damage (if not more) than the overt, obvious

physical abusers.

So, when you get a chance on a public forum like the comments section at the NY

Times RE an article about bpd, or at Psychology Today, or other public e-zines,

speak up. The general population and the psychiatric community needs to be more

aware that much child abuse is perpetrated by mentally ill parents (including

bpd parents) and alcoholic/substance abusing parents who may also be very

high-functioning, so its covert abuse, and the children endure it, alone and

voiceless.

-Annie

>

> I would have liked to read that thread. A similar thing happened on the

general WTO thread. A woman came on a thread about something and posted a

general comment that everyone was being very negative about BPD and she was here

to find help and positive reinforcement as she tries to stay with her BPD

partner. She came from the point of view of someone who does get to choose

whether to stay or go, and had no awareness at all of people who are blood

family members, especially KOs, and that we don't always get a choice. At least

not until we turn 18--and that means we have to put up with a lot of abuse that

we can't say anything about because a lot of the time no one believes us or

downplays the situation, like we are bad children and are just complaining about

being disciplined or something.

>

> Other commenters called her out on the fact that a lot of us don't have a safe

place to vent or express our anger, and she recognized that she came off as

callous. The conversation did take a turn and others started discussing

successful strategies for staying with a partner, but I think as KOs we do get

overlooked as victims of their abuse sometimes.

>

> Coming to terms with the illness versus the person with the illness is

something I'm having a hard time dealing with right now. And to say I don't have

a right to my anger or that it's unfounded, are you KIDDING me?! When my mother

attacked me on Christmas, my anger isn't justified at her attempt to her me? My

anger towards her for that isn't justified? Isn't legitimate? That's ridiculous.

Being angry and being vengeful are two different things.

>

> Expressing anger in healthy ways is essential to being a healthy person. To

suppress our anger will put us in the same boat as our BPD relatives--who cannot

express emotions appropriately.

>

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure I have the right to re-post the bulk of an entire thread that

originated at another support group (Randi?) but I'll share that your sentiment

of " Are you kidding me? " was expressed often in various ways by various members.

I share that sentiment!

There are many such groups on the Internet now, some are mixed: for both those

with bpd and the family members of those with bpd, and others are exclusively

for one or the other. Its the mixed forums that seem to have generated the most

intense (and in some cases vitriolic) debate.

It just seems logical to me to separate the groups, because if one has bpd and

is easily triggered by criticism, then reading about horrific abuse and injuries

perpetrated by those with bpd and the resulting righteous indignation by the

victims would indeed be highly triggering.

However, I do think that its important for us adult survivors of child abuse to

speak out in public forums about the fact that our bpd/npd or Cluster B parents

did commit emotional and physical and even sexual abuse on us. According to

Randi (the list owner here and author of Stop Walking On Eggshells and other

books) high-functioning bpds are *virtually invisible* to the psychiatric

community because they don't seek treatment, and these high-functioning

personality-disordered parents are the ones committing the insidious, covert

abuse that does just as much damage (if not more) than the overt, obvious

physical abusers.

So, when you get a chance on a public forum like the comments section at the NY

Times RE an article about bpd, or at Psychology Today, or other public e-zines,

speak up. The general population and the psychiatric community needs to be more

aware that much child abuse is perpetrated by mentally ill parents (including

bpd parents) and alcoholic/substance abusing parents who may also be very

high-functioning, so its covert abuse, and the children endure it, alone and

voiceless.

-Annie

>

> I would have liked to read that thread. A similar thing happened on the

general WTO thread. A woman came on a thread about something and posted a

general comment that everyone was being very negative about BPD and she was here

to find help and positive reinforcement as she tries to stay with her BPD

partner. She came from the point of view of someone who does get to choose

whether to stay or go, and had no awareness at all of people who are blood

family members, especially KOs, and that we don't always get a choice. At least

not until we turn 18--and that means we have to put up with a lot of abuse that

we can't say anything about because a lot of the time no one believes us or

downplays the situation, like we are bad children and are just complaining about

being disciplined or something.

>

> Other commenters called her out on the fact that a lot of us don't have a safe

place to vent or express our anger, and she recognized that she came off as

callous. The conversation did take a turn and others started discussing

successful strategies for staying with a partner, but I think as KOs we do get

overlooked as victims of their abuse sometimes.

>

> Coming to terms with the illness versus the person with the illness is

something I'm having a hard time dealing with right now. And to say I don't have

a right to my anger or that it's unfounded, are you KIDDING me?! When my mother

attacked me on Christmas, my anger isn't justified at her attempt to her me? My

anger towards her for that isn't justified? Isn't legitimate? That's ridiculous.

Being angry and being vengeful are two different things.

>

> Expressing anger in healthy ways is essential to being a healthy person. To

suppress our anger will put us in the same boat as our BPD relatives--who cannot

express emotions appropriately.

>

[Guest guest]

Wow Annie, that really saddens me to hear that. Anger in it's self is not an

unhealthy emotion! It's not the anger so much as what the person

experiencing does with it that can make it " bad " .

But yes, I agree, I was also not allowed to express anger at all. It's

taken me years to get there, and even still I always cry when I'm super

angry.

ly it saddens me that they would take such a negative view point on

anger. Anger is a normal emotion and there are healthy ways to express it.

Sadly most KOs probably had to learn how to express it because it was

forbidden. And to make it forbidden on a list is not really fair. Healthy

anger is good.

Mia

[Guest guest]

Wow Annie, that really saddens me to hear that. Anger in it's self is not an

unhealthy emotion! It's not the anger so much as what the person

experiencing does with it that can make it " bad " .

But yes, I agree, I was also not allowed to express anger at all. It's

taken me years to get there, and even still I always cry when I'm super

angry.

ly it saddens me that they would take such a negative view point on

anger. Anger is a normal emotion and there are healthy ways to express it.

Sadly most KOs probably had to learn how to express it because it was

forbidden. And to make it forbidden on a list is not really fair. Healthy

anger is good.

Mia

[Guest guest]

My therapist that I had before I moved out of state did say that anger is a

normal, healthy emotion. I think as KOs we would think otherwise because of

our nadas/fadas telling us otherwise... maybe not with words, but in other,

non-verbal ways as well.

And it's good that you can feel the anger, Jill. Nothing wrong with

acknowledging it and knowing what it is instead of mislabeling it as guilt,

hurt, confusion, etc. But that's where it ends up when we can't put it in

the box that says " anger " .

Nothing at all wrong with being angry, IMO. It's what you do with it. But

in it's self, nope. Anger is not a bad thing.

Mia

[Guest guest]

Do you remember that book " Brightsided " ? I think this mentality of trying to

make everything positive and refusing to acknowledge real negative events and

reactions about everything in American culture is part of what is at play here.

The talk of forgiveness and letting go of anger is treated as superior and those

who still want to express their valid feelings are treated as needing to " let

go " and be more positive. It is maddening but it all comes down to the

moderators on a particular group what the tone ends up being. I was once on a

wonderful group for social anxiety where people shared real and raw stories of

their experiences. The mods changed to some sunshine and light folks and people

shut down, stopped being so honest, and in general the group became less healing

and open. So anywho, I hear ya.

>

> I was following a very lively and impassioned thread of discussion regarding

the question " Do the family members of those with bpd show enough compassion for

the bpd? " over at another group, bpdfamily.com.

>

> That thread was moved, then locked, then it vanished altogether. Fortunately,

I was able to copy and save most of it.

>

> The thread had provoked a large number of responses from many members because

the original short essays that began the thread (and the moderator who posted

the essays, in his his own comments) implied that family members need to show

more compassion toward their bpd relative and that expressing anger towards

those with bpd who have been abusive to us is inappropriate.

>

> The replies were all so very well-considered, intelligent and thoughtful, and

were not insulting or cruel: just extremely frank and honest. The most common

sentiment expressed was that the KOs *have been* (and in some cases still are)

showing much compassion for *decades* toward their abusive bpd parent, and the

only result was more abuse. Many of the posters shared that they had been

forbidden to show any anger about their mistreatment (or forbidden to express

anger at all, ever) and they now felt that finally they had a safe place to

openly speak of their hurt, their anger and their outrage and receive

compassionate validation and support for their wounded child.

>

> The moderators, though, kept attempting to reintroduce the idea that anger is

wrong, anger is unhealthy, anger is inappropriate, etc.

>

> The point I wanted to make, is that it still surprises me that *even in forums

and Groups that exist to support the healing of those who were abused by

mentally ill parents* it is still " politically incorrect " to lay the blame for

committing abuse at the feet of the abuser *because the abuser is mentally ill.*

Go figure!

>

> The overwhelming consensus by the member/posters was that it is healthy,

empowering, and appropriate to feel angry about being chronically abused and

unrescued, and it helps the adult survivor of child abuse heal, because its a

natural part of the grieving process, AND its healthy to direct the anger at the

source: at the perpetrator of the abuse, and making the abuser accountable for

their acts. NOT for the purposes of revenge, but for the purposes of feeling

that its finally OK for the victims to speak their truth and get validation, and

to gain protection from further abuse.

>

> But, like I said, that thread at that Forum has been magically poofed out of

existence. I find that both interesting and disturbing.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Do you remember that book " Brightsided " ? I think this mentality of trying to

make everything positive and refusing to acknowledge real negative events and

reactions about everything in American culture is part of what is at play here.

The talk of forgiveness and letting go of anger is treated as superior and those

who still want to express their valid feelings are treated as needing to " let

go " and be more positive. It is maddening but it all comes down to the

moderators on a particular group what the tone ends up being. I was once on a

wonderful group for social anxiety where people shared real and raw stories of

their experiences. The mods changed to some sunshine and light folks and people

shut down, stopped being so honest, and in general the group became less healing

and open. So anywho, I hear ya.

>

> I was following a very lively and impassioned thread of discussion regarding

the question " Do the family members of those with bpd show enough compassion for

the bpd? " over at another group, bpdfamily.com.

>

> That thread was moved, then locked, then it vanished altogether. Fortunately,

I was able to copy and save most of it.

>

> The thread had provoked a large number of responses from many members because

the original short essays that began the thread (and the moderator who posted

the essays, in his his own comments) implied that family members need to show

more compassion toward their bpd relative and that expressing anger towards

those with bpd who have been abusive to us is inappropriate.

>

> The replies were all so very well-considered, intelligent and thoughtful, and

were not insulting or cruel: just extremely frank and honest. The most common

sentiment expressed was that the KOs *have been* (and in some cases still are)

showing much compassion for *decades* toward their abusive bpd parent, and the

only result was more abuse. Many of the posters shared that they had been

forbidden to show any anger about their mistreatment (or forbidden to express

anger at all, ever) and they now felt that finally they had a safe place to

openly speak of their hurt, their anger and their outrage and receive

compassionate validation and support for their wounded child.

>

> The moderators, though, kept attempting to reintroduce the idea that anger is

wrong, anger is unhealthy, anger is inappropriate, etc.

>

> The point I wanted to make, is that it still surprises me that *even in forums

and Groups that exist to support the healing of those who were abused by

mentally ill parents* it is still " politically incorrect " to lay the blame for

committing abuse at the feet of the abuser *because the abuser is mentally ill.*

Go figure!

>

> The overwhelming consensus by the member/posters was that it is healthy,

empowering, and appropriate to feel angry about being chronically abused and

unrescued, and it helps the adult survivor of child abuse heal, because its a

natural part of the grieving process, AND its healthy to direct the anger at the

source: at the perpetrator of the abuse, and making the abuser accountable for

their acts. NOT for the purposes of revenge, but for the purposes of feeling

that its finally OK for the victims to speak their truth and get validation, and

to gain protection from further abuse.

>

> But, like I said, that thread at that Forum has been magically poofed out of

existence. I find that both interesting and disturbing.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Do you remember that book " Brightsided " ? I think this mentality of trying to

make everything positive and refusing to acknowledge real negative events and

reactions about everything in American culture is part of what is at play here.

The talk of forgiveness and letting go of anger is treated as superior and those

who still want to express their valid feelings are treated as needing to " let

go " and be more positive. It is maddening but it all comes down to the

moderators on a particular group what the tone ends up being. I was once on a

wonderful group for social anxiety where people shared real and raw stories of

their experiences. The mods changed to some sunshine and light folks and people

shut down, stopped being so honest, and in general the group became less healing

and open. So anywho, I hear ya.

>

> I was following a very lively and impassioned thread of discussion regarding

the question " Do the family members of those with bpd show enough compassion for

the bpd? " over at another group, bpdfamily.com.

>

> That thread was moved, then locked, then it vanished altogether. Fortunately,

I was able to copy and save most of it.

>

> The thread had provoked a large number of responses from many members because

the original short essays that began the thread (and the moderator who posted

the essays, in his his own comments) implied that family members need to show

more compassion toward their bpd relative and that expressing anger towards

those with bpd who have been abusive to us is inappropriate.

>

> The replies were all so very well-considered, intelligent and thoughtful, and

were not insulting or cruel: just extremely frank and honest. The most common

sentiment expressed was that the KOs *have been* (and in some cases still are)

showing much compassion for *decades* toward their abusive bpd parent, and the

only result was more abuse. Many of the posters shared that they had been

forbidden to show any anger about their mistreatment (or forbidden to express

anger at all, ever) and they now felt that finally they had a safe place to

openly speak of their hurt, their anger and their outrage and receive

compassionate validation and support for their wounded child.

>

> The moderators, though, kept attempting to reintroduce the idea that anger is

wrong, anger is unhealthy, anger is inappropriate, etc.

>

> The point I wanted to make, is that it still surprises me that *even in forums

and Groups that exist to support the healing of those who were abused by

mentally ill parents* it is still " politically incorrect " to lay the blame for

committing abuse at the feet of the abuser *because the abuser is mentally ill.*

Go figure!

>

> The overwhelming consensus by the member/posters was that it is healthy,

empowering, and appropriate to feel angry about being chronically abused and

unrescued, and it helps the adult survivor of child abuse heal, because its a

natural part of the grieving process, AND its healthy to direct the anger at the

source: at the perpetrator of the abuse, and making the abuser accountable for

their acts. NOT for the purposes of revenge, but for the purposes of feeling

that its finally OK for the victims to speak their truth and get validation, and

to gain protection from further abuse.

>

> But, like I said, that thread at that Forum has been magically poofed out of

existence. I find that both interesting and disturbing.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

((((Jill)))) Your dad has to make the decision on how he acts towards you

too. It's so sad that he allowed your stepnada to treat you that way. He

does have control over his behavior, and it's not acceptable IMO. I think

the BPD has a way of putting everyone into a FOG but yes, I do believe he

has the control.

Treat yourself with the love & respect you deserve because you do deserve

it! =)

Mia

>

>

> Mia,

>

> I had never thought about that--the guilt and hurt I felt might actually be

> anger, mislabeled. It's interesting that I can look back at the same event

> that used to trigger hurt and pain, and now that I know it's NOT my fault,

> I'm angry. You'd think, though, that because bpd is the real cause, I'd be

> more compassionate. But I'm not. I keep thinking about how much better Dad

> treated me before he married the stepnada, and that doesn't seem right. It

> seems like he should have more control over his behavior. And I think about

> how well both of them treat my stepsister (she fits the description of a

> golden child), and that makes it seem even more like their treatment of me

> is a choice and not pre-determined by the disease.

>

> Thank you for your insights!

>

> Jill

>

>

> >

> > My therapist that I had before I moved out of state did say that anger is

> a

> > normal, healthy emotion. I think as KOs we would think otherwise because

> of

> > our nadas/fadas telling us otherwise... maybe not with words, but in

> other,

> > non-verbal ways as well.

> >

> > And it's good that you can feel the anger, Jill. Nothing wrong with

> > acknowledging it and knowing what it is instead of mislabeling it as

> guilt,

> > hurt, confusion, etc. But that's where it ends up when we can't put it in

> > the box that says " anger " .

> >

> > Nothing at all wrong with being angry, IMO. It's what you do with it. But

> > in it's self, nope. Anger is not a bad thing.

> >

> > Mia

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

((((Jill)))) Your dad has to make the decision on how he acts towards you

too. It's so sad that he allowed your stepnada to treat you that way. He

does have control over his behavior, and it's not acceptable IMO. I think

the BPD has a way of putting everyone into a FOG but yes, I do believe he

has the control.

Treat yourself with the love & respect you deserve because you do deserve

it! =)

Mia

>

>

> Mia,

>

> I had never thought about that--the guilt and hurt I felt might actually be

> anger, mislabeled. It's interesting that I can look back at the same event

> that used to trigger hurt and pain, and now that I know it's NOT my fault,

> I'm angry. You'd think, though, that because bpd is the real cause, I'd be

> more compassionate. But I'm not. I keep thinking about how much better Dad

> treated me before he married the stepnada, and that doesn't seem right. It

> seems like he should have more control over his behavior. And I think about

> how well both of them treat my stepsister (she fits the description of a

> golden child), and that makes it seem even more like their treatment of me

> is a choice and not pre-determined by the disease.

>

> Thank you for your insights!

>

> Jill

>

>

> >

> > My therapist that I had before I moved out of state did say that anger is

> a

> > normal, healthy emotion. I think as KOs we would think otherwise because

> of

> > our nadas/fadas telling us otherwise... maybe not with words, but in

> other,

> > non-verbal ways as well.

> >

> > And it's good that you can feel the anger, Jill. Nothing wrong with

> > acknowledging it and knowing what it is instead of mislabeling it as

> guilt,

> > hurt, confusion, etc. But that's where it ends up when we can't put it in

> > the box that says " anger " .

> >

> > Nothing at all wrong with being angry, IMO. It's what you do with it. But

> > in it's self, nope. Anger is not a bad thing.

> >

> > Mia

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I agree with you Annie. You know I have seen this all over the internet and I

am trying to understand it rather then nut myself up with anger over it (I did

that at first...LOL). One thing that I found on the other support groups I've

run across is that the moderators were themselves diagnosed as BPD and I believe

they are asking for compassion but true to the diagnosis, they fail to recognize

the expression of compassion and love from their non-BPD family and friends.

Compassion and love to them seems to me to mean, you will do what I want you to

do, you will rescue me only in the manner with which I choose to impose upon you

and you will adore and lavish me with undying devotion and love no matter what I

say or do or you are wrong, unloving and hateful and I will extract insidious

revenge against you (you're all bad). The challenge is non-BPDs are not

permitted to be who they are because that act means that they are not being who

the BPD wants them to be.

This is the crux of the issue...the non-BPDs incredulous because they are

standing their loving and showing compassion and being verbally and emotionally

beaten for being uncaring, lacking compassion and selfish. It is the BPDs own

failure to consider their view is skewed and then add to that the illness

created by the BPD in the non-BPD of people pleasing, walking on eggshells,

doubting reality and wholly diminished self-esteem from taking the beatings.

There is no easy answer. BPDs not in treatment don't get to abuse people and

not have them react. See, non-BPDs have rights and they may exercise them

however they choose. I think of my own case...I feel so bad for nada, I

understand nada completely but with my high-stress life as it is, I am unable to

cope with the attacks, the verbal beatings, the fear, guilt, obligation,

outbursts etc. I am not strong enough. So, it is what it is. It is lack of

understanding that their mental health may in fact be compromised. However, the

non-BPDs who do realize their mental health has been compromised get help and

begin to heal but only if they can step away from the BPD. If the BPD does not

get help, like an alcoholic, they are forever lost - it is such a tragedy...but

its not our job to solve it. We did not create it. We can understand it and

try to work with it to the best of our ability. If we are angry, we have the

right to be angry and we need no support group to validate that and just because

moderators would like to avoid the conflict of BPDs or the pain of facing what

they created if they are themselves BPD, it doesn't make them right and us

wrong. It's a difficult diagnosis...but I always fall back to what I chose for

me, personally...I choose to be free of abuse period regardless of the source,

regardless of the reason, history, what have you. That's what I need to live a

healthy and productive life.

Many Blessings to All!

Jaie

[Guest guest]

I love this thread. I've complained a long while privately that " forgiveness "

has become the " new denial " in many circles. It's the dull panacea that puts a

halt to all that pesky complaining and cries of pain from victims, real victims,

not people playing the card to win points for their side.

I asked a rabbi about forgiveness, and he wisely advised that forgiveness is

appropriate where there is remorse. If the offending person is remorseful, aware

of how they have wronged you, and humbly asking for forgiveness, then it's

appropriate to extend forgiveness.

Small instances, say, where children make mistakes, or someone doesn't see me

and say hello or whatever, these kinds of things are forgiven on a daily basis

without remorse from the other side. The small child doesn't have capacity for

remorse. How can an adult be remorseful over a small oversight they don't even

know about? Better to let these go. But the big stuff like the transgressions of

Nada and Fada, despite how many times they've been pointed out, forgiveness is

not appropriate. Not only was there no remorse, there was a willful, ongoing

campaign to deny any wrongdoing--to paint them as 100% right and me 100% wrong.

We KOs cannot heal until we face and understand the truth of how our childhoods

have been robbed and betrayed. Our anger is the first line of defense, pointing

to the truth, ensuring we never let our guards down and forget. In my

experience, that is the way to healing.

AFB

[Guest guest]

I'm in the camp that feelings are feelings, and they are neither right or wrong,

that its unhealthy for a person to deny their feelings (didn't we get enough of

that growing up?), and the only way to get rid of the anger is to allow it to

surface, roll around in it for a while, then take a shower and rinse it off. At

least that has worked for me. At age 50, I was complaining constantly about my

childhood, to whomever would listen. Having dealt with it all, here I am 4 years

later freed of those emotions because they're gone.

I was in the WTOGrandparent group for a while and there was a lot of controversy

in that group between the mothers of BPDs vs the mothers-in-laws of BPDs. The

mothers were all for being compassionate and in my opinion enabling towards

their daughters while the MILs were angry and grief stricken over becoming

ostracized from their sons and grandchildren, now stockholmed by these

tyrannical women. The mothers of BPD took offense when the MILs expressed their

anger and truly that group needs to be divided into two, one for parents of BPD,

another for inlaws of BPD, for their issues are quite different.

I spent 25 years of my adult life being kind and compassionate to my BPD mother.

She viewed me as weak and in her mind I gave her permission to abuse me. For 2

years now I've been withdrawing from and setting boundaries within the

relationship. She's been on Good Behavior now since Thanksgiving and I believe

she's figured out that if she doesn't be nice to me, she'll never see me, her

only child, again.

I spent 5 years people-pleasing my BPD DIL. Again, I was viewed as weak and she

thrived on abusing me. We put our foot down last year and refused to attend her

birthday party because she's blown us off on special occasions for two years.

My husband was very frank with my son that we were not going to be treated like

this any more. It forced our son to open his eyes and progress is slowly being

made.

Children do not understand how it feels when they hit or bite, until someone

does it back to them. BPDs are emotional children and until you allow them to

feel the pain they dish out, they'll keep right on doing it. From my

experience, compassion does not work on BPD, in their minds compassion =

permission.

>

> I was following a very lively and impassioned thread of discussion regarding

the question " Do the family members of those with bpd show enough compassion for

the bpd? " over at another group, bpdfamily.com.

>

> That thread was moved, then locked, then it vanished altogether. Fortunately,

I was able to copy and save most of it.

>

> The thread had provoked a large number of responses from many members because

the original short essays that began the thread (and the moderator who posted

the essays, in his his own comments) implied that family members need to show

more compassion toward their bpd relative and that expressing anger towards

those with bpd who have been abusive to us is inappropriate.

>

> The replies were all so very well-considered, intelligent and thoughtful, and

were not insulting or cruel: just extremely frank and honest. The most common

sentiment expressed was that the KOs *have been* (and in some cases still are)

showing much compassion for *decades* toward their abusive bpd parent, and the

only result was more abuse. Many of the posters shared that they had been

forbidden to show any anger about their mistreatment (or forbidden to express

anger at all, ever) and they now felt that finally they had a safe place to

openly speak of their hurt, their anger and their outrage and receive

compassionate validation and support for their wounded child.

>

> The moderators, though, kept attempting to reintroduce the idea that anger is

wrong, anger is unhealthy, anger is inappropriate, etc.

>

> The point I wanted to make, is that it still surprises me that *even in forums

and Groups that exist to support the healing of those who were abused by

mentally ill parents* it is still " politically incorrect " to lay the blame for

committing abuse at the feet of the abuser *because the abuser is mentally ill.*

Go figure!

>

> The overwhelming consensus by the member/posters was that it is healthy,

empowering, and appropriate to feel angry about being chronically abused and

unrescued, and it helps the adult survivor of child abuse heal, because its a

natural part of the grieving process, AND its healthy to direct the anger at the

source: at the perpetrator of the abuse, and making the abuser accountable for

their acts. NOT for the purposes of revenge, but for the purposes of feeling

that its finally OK for the victims to speak their truth and get validation, and

to gain protection from further abuse.

>

> But, like I said, that thread at that Forum has been magically poofed out of

existence. I find that both interesting and disturbing.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

I'm in the camp that feelings are feelings, and they are neither right or wrong,

that its unhealthy for a person to deny their feelings (didn't we get enough of

that growing up?), and the only way to get rid of the anger is to allow it to

surface, roll around in it for a while, then take a shower and rinse it off. At

least that has worked for me. At age 50, I was complaining constantly about my

childhood, to whomever would listen. Having dealt with it all, here I am 4 years

later freed of those emotions because they're gone.

I was in the WTOGrandparent group for a while and there was a lot of controversy

in that group between the mothers of BPDs vs the mothers-in-laws of BPDs. The

mothers were all for being compassionate and in my opinion enabling towards

their daughters while the MILs were angry and grief stricken over becoming

ostracized from their sons and grandchildren, now stockholmed by these

tyrannical women. The mothers of BPD took offense when the MILs expressed their

anger and truly that group needs to be divided into two, one for parents of BPD,

another for inlaws of BPD, for their issues are quite different.

I spent 25 years of my adult life being kind and compassionate to my BPD mother.

She viewed me as weak and in her mind I gave her permission to abuse me. For 2

years now I've been withdrawing from and setting boundaries within the

relationship. She's been on Good Behavior now since Thanksgiving and I believe

she's figured out that if she doesn't be nice to me, she'll never see me, her

only child, again.

I spent 5 years people-pleasing my BPD DIL. Again, I was viewed as weak and she

thrived on abusing me. We put our foot down last year and refused to attend her

birthday party because she's blown us off on special occasions for two years.

My husband was very frank with my son that we were not going to be treated like

this any more. It forced our son to open his eyes and progress is slowly being

made.

Children do not understand how it feels when they hit or bite, until someone

does it back to them. BPDs are emotional children and until you allow them to

feel the pain they dish out, they'll keep right on doing it. From my

experience, compassion does not work on BPD, in their minds compassion =

permission.

>

> I was following a very lively and impassioned thread of discussion regarding

the question " Do the family members of those with bpd show enough compassion for

the bpd? " over at another group, bpdfamily.com.

>

> That thread was moved, then locked, then it vanished altogether. Fortunately,

I was able to copy and save most of it.

>

> The thread had provoked a large number of responses from many members because

the original short essays that began the thread (and the moderator who posted

the essays, in his his own comments) implied that family members need to show

more compassion toward their bpd relative and that expressing anger towards

those with bpd who have been abusive to us is inappropriate.

>

> The replies were all so very well-considered, intelligent and thoughtful, and

were not insulting or cruel: just extremely frank and honest. The most common

sentiment expressed was that the KOs *have been* (and in some cases still are)

showing much compassion for *decades* toward their abusive bpd parent, and the

only result was more abuse. Many of the posters shared that they had been

forbidden to show any anger about their mistreatment (or forbidden to express

anger at all, ever) and they now felt that finally they had a safe place to

openly speak of their hurt, their anger and their outrage and receive

compassionate validation and support for their wounded child.

>

> The moderators, though, kept attempting to reintroduce the idea that anger is

wrong, anger is unhealthy, anger is inappropriate, etc.

>

> The point I wanted to make, is that it still surprises me that *even in forums

and Groups that exist to support the healing of those who were abused by

mentally ill parents* it is still " politically incorrect " to lay the blame for

committing abuse at the feet of the abuser *because the abuser is mentally ill.*

Go figure!

>

> The overwhelming consensus by the member/posters was that it is healthy,

empowering, and appropriate to feel angry about being chronically abused and

unrescued, and it helps the adult survivor of child abuse heal, because its a

natural part of the grieving process, AND its healthy to direct the anger at the

source: at the perpetrator of the abuse, and making the abuser accountable for

their acts. NOT for the purposes of revenge, but for the purposes of feeling

that its finally OK for the victims to speak their truth and get validation, and

to gain protection from further abuse.

>

> But, like I said, that thread at that Forum has been magically poofed out of

existence. I find that both interesting and disturbing.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Another thought: The place that I've found in myself is probably best called

" acceptance. " I acknowledge the dysfunction of my family, I don't deny it or

brush feelings away, I accept, clear-eyed that it happened. I don't need to go

any further than that. With acceptance, I find peace. If I want to go back and

dredge up anger, I can do that, but acceptance seems to put it gently to bed,

allows me to turn my focus to other, productive things, like living my life to

the fullest. I don't need to boomerang between anger and forgiveness. I just

accept and move on.

AFB

--

[Guest guest]

Another thought: The place that I've found in myself is probably best called

" acceptance. " I acknowledge the dysfunction of my family, I don't deny it or

brush feelings away, I accept, clear-eyed that it happened. I don't need to go

any further than that. With acceptance, I find peace. If I want to go back and

dredge up anger, I can do that, but acceptance seems to put it gently to bed,

allows me to turn my focus to other, productive things, like living my life to

the fullest. I don't need to boomerang between anger and forgiveness. I just

accept and move on.

AFB

--

[Guest guest]

It's one thing to forgive and walk away. It's quite another to forgive and then

continue to let the person abuse you, which we KOs are forced to do our entire

lives.

Forgiving someone doesn't mean that their behavior won't make you angry again

when it re-emerges or that you should go right back to letting someone hurt you.

There's a difference between forgiving and sitting back and letting someone

continue to abuse you. That's what these " forgiveness/brightside " folks seem to

be preaching to me. Not forgiveness; because I can forgive my mother. I can

understand that it's a coping mechanism because of the awful incestual

molestation that occured when she was a child, and her own mother refused to

help her. I have complete compassion for her. But she's like a wounded animal.

And while I feel sorry for a wounded animal and can forgive it for it's

frightened behavior, I also am not going to stick my hand in its cage and let it

bite my fingers off.

Forgiveness doesn't mean we have to continue our relationships with the BPDs in

our lives.

[Guest guest]

It's one thing to forgive and walk away. It's quite another to forgive and then

continue to let the person abuse you, which we KOs are forced to do our entire

lives.

Forgiving someone doesn't mean that their behavior won't make you angry again

when it re-emerges or that you should go right back to letting someone hurt you.

There's a difference between forgiving and sitting back and letting someone

continue to abuse you. That's what these " forgiveness/brightside " folks seem to

be preaching to me. Not forgiveness; because I can forgive my mother. I can

understand that it's a coping mechanism because of the awful incestual

molestation that occured when she was a child, and her own mother refused to

help her. I have complete compassion for her. But she's like a wounded animal.

And while I feel sorry for a wounded animal and can forgive it for it's

frightened behavior, I also am not going to stick my hand in its cage and let it

bite my fingers off.

Forgiveness doesn't mean we have to continue our relationships with the BPDs in

our lives.

[Guest guest]

It's one thing to forgive and walk away. It's quite another to forgive and then

continue to let the person abuse you, which we KOs are forced to do our entire

lives.

Forgiving someone doesn't mean that their behavior won't make you angry again

when it re-emerges or that you should go right back to letting someone hurt you.

There's a difference between forgiving and sitting back and letting someone

continue to abuse you. That's what these " forgiveness/brightside " folks seem to

be preaching to me. Not forgiveness; because I can forgive my mother. I can

understand that it's a coping mechanism because of the awful incestual

molestation that occured when she was a child, and her own mother refused to

help her. I have complete compassion for her. But she's like a wounded animal.

And while I feel sorry for a wounded animal and can forgive it for it's

frightened behavior, I also am not going to stick my hand in its cage and let it

bite my fingers off.

Forgiveness doesn't mean we have to continue our relationships with the BPDs in

our lives.

[Guest guest]

Brilliantly said!

I'm currently very LC and debating NC with Nada. What has been swirling inside

of me (after 2+ years of weekly therapy with an excellent therapist) is this: I

can choose the relationship I will have with Nada. She'll always continue to

bite me when she's in BPD mode... but I don't have to have to put my hand in her

cage when she's snarling.. just because she wants to bite me. Hmmm... novel

concept, this whole thing of " me first and by my choices. "

I didn't know I could choose. It was always about what SHE wanted. Now it's

about what I want.

Freedom.

Lynnette

>

> It's one thing to forgive and walk away. It's quite another to forgive and

then continue to let the person abuse you, which we KOs are forced to do our

entire lives.

>

> Forgiving someone doesn't mean that their behavior won't make you angry again

when it re-emerges or that you should go right back to letting someone hurt you.

There's a difference between forgiving and sitting back and letting someone

continue to abuse you. That's what these " forgiveness/brightside " folks seem to

be preaching to me. Not forgiveness; because I can forgive my mother. I can

understand that it's a coping mechanism because of the awful incestual

molestation that occured when she was a child, and her own mother refused to

help her. I have complete compassion for her. But she's like a wounded animal.

And while I feel sorry for a wounded animal and can forgive it for it's

frightened behavior, I also am not going to stick my hand in its cage and let it

bite my fingers off.

>

> Forgiveness doesn't mean we have to continue our relationships with the BPDs

in our lives.

>

[Guest guest]

Brilliantly said!

I'm currently very LC and debating NC with Nada. What has been swirling inside

of me (after 2+ years of weekly therapy with an excellent therapist) is this: I

can choose the relationship I will have with Nada. She'll always continue to

bite me when she's in BPD mode... but I don't have to have to put my hand in her

cage when she's snarling.. just because she wants to bite me. Hmmm... novel

concept, this whole thing of " me first and by my choices. "

I didn't know I could choose. It was always about what SHE wanted. Now it's

about what I want.

Freedom.

Lynnette

>

> It's one thing to forgive and walk away. It's quite another to forgive and

then continue to let the person abuse you, which we KOs are forced to do our

entire lives.

>

> Forgiving someone doesn't mean that their behavior won't make you angry again

when it re-emerges or that you should go right back to letting someone hurt you.

There's a difference between forgiving and sitting back and letting someone

continue to abuse you. That's what these " forgiveness/brightside " folks seem to

be preaching to me. Not forgiveness; because I can forgive my mother. I can

understand that it's a coping mechanism because of the awful incestual

molestation that occured when she was a child, and her own mother refused to

help her. I have complete compassion for her. But she's like a wounded animal.

And while I feel sorry for a wounded animal and can forgive it for it's

frightened behavior, I also am not going to stick my hand in its cage and let it

bite my fingers off.

>

> Forgiveness doesn't mean we have to continue our relationships with the BPDs

in our lives.

>