Re: Is innate resilence the key?

[Guest guest]

Annie wrote: Its an interesting conundrum: why some people survive abuse with

less damage,

Annie, I took a class a few years ago taught by a very wonderful social worker

who specialized in children and preventing bullying and abuse etc. and she

discussed the 'resilient child' and that psychologists are finding that while

many children are damaged from abuse there are others who manage to transcend

it, enough so that they had given us a name the " resilient child " and one of the

most important aspects of our ability to survive was that there were adults

along the way who reached out to us. Since every one in the class was an

educator she urged us all to reach out to our students because even the

slightest attention could prove beneficial.Probably every one on this site is a

resilient child. I know that there were exercises in the class that I found so

disturbing that I walked out and went to the bathroom to cry. At the end of the

class she pulled me aside and said there had been another person in the AM Class

who had burst into tears too and not to feel bad that there were more of us out

there. I found that person from the AM class and we talked about our childhoods.

Quite healing! We need more research on BPD and resilient children.

Kay

[Guest guest]

Annie wrote: Its an interesting conundrum: why some people survive abuse with

less damage,

Annie, I took a class a few years ago taught by a very wonderful social worker

who specialized in children and preventing bullying and abuse etc. and she

discussed the 'resilient child' and that psychologists are finding that while

many children are damaged from abuse there are others who manage to transcend

it, enough so that they had given us a name the " resilient child " and one of the

most important aspects of our ability to survive was that there were adults

along the way who reached out to us. Since every one in the class was an

educator she urged us all to reach out to our students because even the

slightest attention could prove beneficial.Probably every one on this site is a

resilient child. I know that there were exercises in the class that I found so

disturbing that I walked out and went to the bathroom to cry. At the end of the

class she pulled me aside and said there had been another person in the AM Class

who had burst into tears too and not to feel bad that there were more of us out

there. I found that person from the AM class and we talked about our childhoods.

Quite healing! We need more research on BPD and resilient children.

Kay

[Guest guest]

Annie,

It is interesting how we all react differently. In another thread here, some

were comparing how their mothers demanded academic excellence from them, etc. My

mother never demanded this from me, but I excelled academically anyways, in the

hopes that it would get me noticed as a person, not just as a possession. Didn't

work. My mother was proud of me as a possession not as a person. And that always

hurt. It's really hard to hear her say the words " I'm so proud of you " because

there is something so weird about the way she says it. It's not believable, and,

to me, she's proud of me in some way that allows her to brag about me to

friends. Yet she never had anything to do with any of my success.

I also never equated her behavior with normal. (I never knew it was a disorder,

I just thought it was her.) I knew other people's families didn't behave that

way. I think that the survival of the KO in the BPD environment is largely

affected by how they are cared for by other adults. I realize now that I had

many other adults in my life that I looked up to and replaced as role models

over my parents. Unfortunately, some KOs will not have other caring adults in

their lives. I worry for them.

But make no mistake, even with other adults in my life, I still am susceptible

to FOG, hoovering, emotional triggers, etc.

[Guest guest]

Annie,

It is interesting how we all react differently. In another thread here, some

were comparing how their mothers demanded academic excellence from them, etc. My

mother never demanded this from me, but I excelled academically anyways, in the

hopes that it would get me noticed as a person, not just as a possession. Didn't

work. My mother was proud of me as a possession not as a person. And that always

hurt. It's really hard to hear her say the words " I'm so proud of you " because

there is something so weird about the way she says it. It's not believable, and,

to me, she's proud of me in some way that allows her to brag about me to

friends. Yet she never had anything to do with any of my success.

I also never equated her behavior with normal. (I never knew it was a disorder,

I just thought it was her.) I knew other people's families didn't behave that

way. I think that the survival of the KO in the BPD environment is largely

affected by how they are cared for by other adults. I realize now that I had

many other adults in my life that I looked up to and replaced as role models

over my parents. Unfortunately, some KOs will not have other caring adults in

their lives. I worry for them.

But make no mistake, even with other adults in my life, I still am susceptible

to FOG, hoovering, emotional triggers, etc.

[Guest guest]

Okay I'm having a hard time finding the original posters of threads. I thought

one of the last ones I responded to was Mia when it was really Holly. So I will

not address the poster by name, but, someone wrote:

I also never equated her behavior with normal. (I never knew it was a disorder,

I just thought it was her.) I knew other people's families didn't behave that

way. I think that the survival of the KO in the BPD environment is largely

affected by how they are cared for by other adults. I realize now that I had

many other adults in my life that I looked up to and replaced as role models.

According to the class I took; researchers are discovering that resilient

children seem to innately know that " other people don't behave that way " and

they do find positive role models outside of the family. Whoever wrote the

words above mirrors my childhood experiences as well.

To all resilients out there, Keep on healing. Kay

[Guest guest]

Okay I'm having a hard time finding the original posters of threads. I thought

one of the last ones I responded to was Mia when it was really Holly. So I will

not address the poster by name, but, someone wrote:

I also never equated her behavior with normal. (I never knew it was a disorder,

I just thought it was her.) I knew other people's families didn't behave that

way. I think that the survival of the KO in the BPD environment is largely

affected by how they are cared for by other adults. I realize now that I had

many other adults in my life that I looked up to and replaced as role models.

According to the class I took; researchers are discovering that resilient

children seem to innately know that " other people don't behave that way " and

they do find positive role models outside of the family. Whoever wrote the

words above mirrors my childhood experiences as well.

To all resilients out there, Keep on healing. Kay

[Guest guest]

I think about this all the time. I wonder why I " escaped " when my older

brother did not. He reacted with violence to the way we were raised, most of

it directed at me. I don't know if its his personality - i'm pretty sure he

had other adults who tried to reach him too.

>

>

>

> Okay I'm having a hard time finding the original posters of threads. I

> thought one of the last ones I responded to was Mia when it was really

> Holly. So I will not address the poster by name, but, someone wrote:

>

> I also never equated her behavior with normal. (I never knew it was a

> disorder,

> I just thought it was her.) I knew other people's families didn't behave

> that

> way. I think that the survival of the KO in the BPD environment is largely

> affected by how they are cared for by other adults. I realize now that I

> had

> many other adults in my life that I looked up to and replaced as role

> models.

>

> According to the class I took; researchers are discovering that resilient

> children seem to innately know that " other people don't behave that way " and

> they do find positive role models outside of the family. Whoever wrote the

> words above mirrors my childhood experiences as well.

>

> To all resilients out there, Keep on healing. Kay

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think about this all the time. I wonder why I " escaped " when my older

brother did not. He reacted with violence to the way we were raised, most of

it directed at me. I don't know if its his personality - i'm pretty sure he

had other adults who tried to reach him too.

>

>

>

> Okay I'm having a hard time finding the original posters of threads. I

> thought one of the last ones I responded to was Mia when it was really

> Holly. So I will not address the poster by name, but, someone wrote:

>

> I also never equated her behavior with normal. (I never knew it was a

> disorder,

> I just thought it was her.) I knew other people's families didn't behave

> that

> way. I think that the survival of the KO in the BPD environment is largely

> affected by how they are cared for by other adults. I realize now that I

> had

> many other adults in my life that I looked up to and replaced as role

> models.

>

> According to the class I took; researchers are discovering that resilient

> children seem to innately know that " other people don't behave that way " and

> they do find positive role models outside of the family. Whoever wrote the

> words above mirrors my childhood experiences as well.

>

> To all resilients out there, Keep on healing. Kay

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think about this all the time. I wonder why I " escaped " when my older

brother did not. He reacted with violence to the way we were raised, most of

it directed at me. I don't know if its his personality - i'm pretty sure he

had other adults who tried to reach him too.

>

>

>

> Okay I'm having a hard time finding the original posters of threads. I

> thought one of the last ones I responded to was Mia when it was really

> Holly. So I will not address the poster by name, but, someone wrote:

>

> I also never equated her behavior with normal. (I never knew it was a

> disorder,

> I just thought it was her.) I knew other people's families didn't behave

> that

> way. I think that the survival of the KO in the BPD environment is largely

> affected by how they are cared for by other adults. I realize now that I

> had

> many other adults in my life that I looked up to and replaced as role

> models.

>

> According to the class I took; researchers are discovering that resilient

> children seem to innately know that " other people don't behave that way " and

> they do find positive role models outside of the family. Whoever wrote the

> words above mirrors my childhood experiences as well.

>

> To all resilients out there, Keep on healing. Kay

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kay,

That was my comment that you're quoting. I like hearing about this research. I

find it validating somehow to know that this research reflects my own

experience. I always wondered why I was able to survive this screwed up family

dynamic--and part of me wondered if it was just luck and that one day it would

run out. But hearing about your class and what you're learning reassures me in a

way that it's not just luck.

[Guest guest]

I am reading all this with wonder. To find others who understand is such a gift

of validation of my sanity.

In reference to resilient children, I always wondered why I seemed to rise

above, or not be as beaten down by my mother's behavior as my brothers, I always

attributed it to my reading. As a child I was a voracious reader, especially

loved were Little women, Little men, Heidi, The seven little peppers and how

they grew and Indian Captive. I believed through them I was able to see and

incorporate what a loving family, loving parent was and could recognize that my

parents, my family was not as it should be.

I gave myself the image of what a family should be and did not accept the

dysfunctional one I lived with.

Or am I giving myself too much credit and it is simply a matter of a personality

trait I was born with? I would rather think that somehow I was able to protect

and nurture myself in some small way.

>

> Annie,

>

> It is interesting how we all react differently. In another thread here, some

were comparing how their mothers demanded academic excellence from them, etc. My

mother never demanded this from me, but I excelled academically anyways, in the

hopes that it would get me noticed as a person, not just as a possession. Didn't

work. My mother was proud of me as a possession not as a person. And that always

hurt. It's really hard to hear her say the words " I'm so proud of you " because

there is something so weird about the way she says it. It's not believable, and,

to me, she's proud of me in some way that allows her to brag about me to

friends. Yet she never had anything to do with any of my success.

>

> I also never equated her behavior with normal. (I never knew it was a

disorder, I just thought it was her.) I knew other people's families didn't

behave that way. I think that the survival of the KO in the BPD environment is

largely affected by how they are cared for by other adults. I realize now that I

had many other adults in my life that I looked up to and replaced as role models

over my parents. Unfortunately, some KOs will not have other caring adults in

their lives. I worry for them.

>

> But make no mistake, even with other adults in my life, I still am susceptible

to FOG, hoovering, emotional triggers, etc.

>

[Guest guest]

I am reading all this with wonder. To find others who understand is such a gift

of validation of my sanity.

In reference to resilient children, I always wondered why I seemed to rise

above, or not be as beaten down by my mother's behavior as my brothers, I always

attributed it to my reading. As a child I was a voracious reader, especially

loved were Little women, Little men, Heidi, The seven little peppers and how

they grew and Indian Captive. I believed through them I was able to see and

incorporate what a loving family, loving parent was and could recognize that my

parents, my family was not as it should be.

I gave myself the image of what a family should be and did not accept the

dysfunctional one I lived with.

Or am I giving myself too much credit and it is simply a matter of a personality

trait I was born with? I would rather think that somehow I was able to protect

and nurture myself in some small way.

>

> Annie,

>

> It is interesting how we all react differently. In another thread here, some

were comparing how their mothers demanded academic excellence from them, etc. My

mother never demanded this from me, but I excelled academically anyways, in the

hopes that it would get me noticed as a person, not just as a possession. Didn't

work. My mother was proud of me as a possession not as a person. And that always

hurt. It's really hard to hear her say the words " I'm so proud of you " because

there is something so weird about the way she says it. It's not believable, and,

to me, she's proud of me in some way that allows her to brag about me to

friends. Yet she never had anything to do with any of my success.

>

> I also never equated her behavior with normal. (I never knew it was a

disorder, I just thought it was her.) I knew other people's families didn't

behave that way. I think that the survival of the KO in the BPD environment is

largely affected by how they are cared for by other adults. I realize now that I

had many other adults in my life that I looked up to and replaced as role models

over my parents. Unfortunately, some KOs will not have other caring adults in

their lives. I worry for them.

>

> But make no mistake, even with other adults in my life, I still am susceptible

to FOG, hoovering, emotional triggers, etc.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi , I took that class about 4 or 5 years ago during a teacher's academy.

Around here a teacher's academy is a week of classes designed to improve your

teaching ability and they vary in content and sometimes you take one class for

five days or you can take 5 different classes a different class each day or 10

classes each class lasting half a day.

The woman who taught this class was absolutely wonderful, she was one of those

people who really practice what they preach and she was at such a level of calm

in her life. That class opened my eyes and helped me realize that I was not the

one at fault. What an eye opener to know there were lots of people like me and

that our parents really were the difficult ones. It was a very difficult day, I

left the class in tears, but after that I wasn't ashamed to talk about my

childhood, and I found another teacher (someone I had known for some time) who

was also a resilient and we had both commented on occasion about our difficult

childhoods but after that we really opened up to each other.

The instructor didn't give us a bibliography concerning that research but I do

know that the experts are beginning to look at resilients and how and why we not

only survive but often thrive.

Kay

[Guest guest]

Hi , I took that class about 4 or 5 years ago during a teacher's academy.

Around here a teacher's academy is a week of classes designed to improve your

teaching ability and they vary in content and sometimes you take one class for

five days or you can take 5 different classes a different class each day or 10

classes each class lasting half a day.

The woman who taught this class was absolutely wonderful, she was one of those

people who really practice what they preach and she was at such a level of calm

in her life. That class opened my eyes and helped me realize that I was not the

one at fault. What an eye opener to know there were lots of people like me and

that our parents really were the difficult ones. It was a very difficult day, I

left the class in tears, but after that I wasn't ashamed to talk about my

childhood, and I found another teacher (someone I had known for some time) who

was also a resilient and we had both commented on occasion about our difficult

childhoods but after that we really opened up to each other.

The instructor didn't give us a bibliography concerning that research but I do

know that the experts are beginning to look at resilients and how and why we not

only survive but often thrive.

Kay

[Guest guest]

Hi , I took that class about 4 or 5 years ago during a teacher's academy.

Around here a teacher's academy is a week of classes designed to improve your

teaching ability and they vary in content and sometimes you take one class for

five days or you can take 5 different classes a different class each day or 10

classes each class lasting half a day.

The woman who taught this class was absolutely wonderful, she was one of those

people who really practice what they preach and she was at such a level of calm

in her life. That class opened my eyes and helped me realize that I was not the

one at fault. What an eye opener to know there were lots of people like me and

that our parents really were the difficult ones. It was a very difficult day, I

left the class in tears, but after that I wasn't ashamed to talk about my

childhood, and I found another teacher (someone I had known for some time) who

was also a resilient and we had both commented on occasion about our difficult

childhoods but after that we really opened up to each other.

The instructor didn't give us a bibliography concerning that research but I do

know that the experts are beginning to look at resilients and how and why we not

only survive but often thrive.

Kay

[Guest guest]

Interesting...my younger brother did not make it out as well as I did. I'm in

Corporate America, he suffers the long-lasting affects of meth addiction. We

were raised the same. The one difference, you guessed it, I read like a fiend.

I escaped into books and I read The Little House on the Prairie books and I saw

a picture of what I thought or innately knew what a good family was supposed to

be like. I knew mine didn't measure up even if people in mine loved eachother.

Maybe that understanding inoculated me from further psychological damage? I

wonder. Anyone else have similar experiences?

My life and my brother's is like night and day. He chose the same addictive

path my parents did, I'm in Corporate America doing just fine but healing. I

will be fine and totally okay, I know that...I think somewhere I always knew

that. Even though I knew things weren't right, there was a part of my spirit

they could never touch. A part that remained whole and strong. Survivor

instinct from an emotional perspective? I don't even know.

>

> I am reading all this with wonder. To find others who understand is such a

gift of validation of my sanity.

> In reference to resilient children, I always wondered why I seemed to rise

above, or not be as beaten down by my mother's behavior as my brothers, I always

attributed it to my reading. As a child I was a voracious reader, especially

loved were Little women, Little men, Heidi, The seven little peppers and how

they grew and Indian Captive. I believed through them I was able to see and

incorporate what a loving family, loving parent was and could recognize that my

parents, my family was not as it should be.

> I gave myself the image of what a family should be and did not accept the

dysfunctional one I lived with.

> Or am I giving myself too much credit and it is simply a matter of a

personality trait I was born with? I would rather think that somehow I was able

to protect and nurture myself in some small way.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The books were my solution too. I don't remember neither one person who would

help me in any way when I was living with my prmial family.

But when I was 3 years old I learned how to read - by myself. They refused to

teach me saying I'm too young for that so I tricked them :-) I watched tv news

with them always asking " what is written on screen " ( for example , from Paris,

or London, or.....)

In primary school I have already read books for grown ups including books about

psychology ( from university) and soon I've found out that that there are a lot

of different realities outside my crazy family and little town where I lived and

that I have to protect myself to survive until I can ran away.

So I decided to raise myself - I didn't have anybody else to do it... I was

about 12 - 13 years old. The outcome was a little bit crazy :-) - problems with

excepting help because of my total independence and not trusting others,

problems with authorities, lack of some " normal " social skills...but I'm proud

that I escaped from craziness of my family and I did managed to crate my own

(healthier) world. There were moments when I reacted similar like nada or fada

but I managed ( with a looooot of effort to heal and change that)

My sister wasn't that lucky. They sucked her into their craziness ( all family

was crazy one way or another), she refuse to see that she had problems and

refuse to confront with her past. She is dead now - indirectly because of that (

long story).

Sometimes she said to me - You are so lucky you have enough power for

changes...But this power came out from little steps I did ( confronting,

trying, falling, trying again, learning, trying , falling again...) and bit by

bit knowledge and power came. I was not so " powerfull " at the beginning of my

journey, I was totally scared, confused when I was little......the same like

her. But she was kind of conformist, she always choose the easier ways and

shortcuts, she always refuse to take ( even small) steps, she just trying to

find others who would do things for her and until the very and she was convinced

that one day some miracle will happen and everything will be different.

Maybe because she was a " golden " child and I was a " bed " one. I think it's much

harder for the " golden " ones - it is harder to recognize that something is

terribly , terribly wrong - the abuse is not so obviouse.

Yenaine

> >

> > Annie,

> >

> > It is interesting how we all react differently. In another thread here, some

were comparing how their mothers demanded academic excellence from them, etc. My

mother never demanded this from me, but I excelled academically anyways, in the

hopes that it would get me noticed as a person, not just as a possession. Didn't

work. My mother was proud of me as a possession not as a person. And that always

hurt. It's really hard to hear her say the words " I'm so proud of you " because

there is something so weird about the way she says it. It's not believable, and,

to me, she's proud of me in some way that allows her to brag about me to

friends. Yet she never had anything to do with any of my success.

> >

> > I also never equated her behavior with normal. (I never knew it was a

disorder, I just thought it was her.) I knew other people's families didn't

behave that way. I think that the survival of the KO in the BPD environment is

largely affected by how they are cared for by other adults. I realize now that I

had many other adults in my life that I looked up to and replaced as role models

over my parents. Unfortunately, some KOs will not have other caring adults in

their lives. I worry for them.

> >

> > But make no mistake, even with other adults in my life, I still am

susceptible to FOG, hoovering, emotional triggers, etc.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Agreed; it has to be genes + environment......b/c there are a lot of us that

have siblings with BPD/NPD, but we do not...............it must be the genes

mix, plus perhaps our birth order, plus perhaps other factors, such as excelling

academically, or being particularly lovely, or having very high energy......or,

as another person mentioned, having the good luck to have had a healthy adult

reach out and help us when we are in trouble.

Alastriona

Subject: Re: Is innate resilence the key?

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2011, 10:14 PM

Research studies over the last few years have been leaning toward the conclusion

that personality disorder occurs due to a combination of genetic predisposition

PLUS an invalidating environment. 

So...

If a child is born with very high resilience, then that particular child can

endure more negative environmental factors with less damage.

A child born with very low resilience is going to receive more damage from even

a mildly invalidating environment.

So its an interplay between the child's innate temperamental factors  and the

parenting or environment the child is subjected to.

Another fascinating study shows that the actual brain structure /neural network

of infants and toddlers can be negatively impacted if they do not receive enough

skin-to-skin touch and positive eye-contact /positive mirroring from the mother

or primary care-giver; sufficient positive touch and emotional interaction is

crucial to normal brain development in babies.  When babies don't get enough

touch or interaction with the mother or when babies are actually abused or

neglected,  the resulting damage is called " attachment disorder " and it has the

potential to affect the child for life.

Genes + environment makes a lot of sense to me.

-Annie

>

> I think that, in addition to having a " helping witness " as a child, two other

things may come into play.  One is having something you're good at and get

praised for, so you know you have good things about you and you know you're

competent at something.  The other I think must have to do with the amount of

inherited brain dysfunction you got from nada or fada (or, in the case of some

really unfortunate folks, nada *and* fada.)

>

> Looking back at my own family history, I hear stories told about my great

grandmother that people called " lazy " way back when, but actually sound like

severe clinical depression.  Then I look at my grandfather's behavior and wonder

if he isn't actually borderline as well.  Both nada and aunt have severe

emotional problems.  Then there is my uncle, their brother, who got out

relatively unscathed.  That with all the new research has me thinking a lot

about the heritability of the trait having something to do with this.

>

> --.

>

------------------------------------

**This group is based on principles in Randi Kreger's new book The Essential

Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder: New Tips and Tools to Stop

Walking on Eggshells, available at www.BPDCentral.com.** Problems? Write

@.... DO NOT RESPOND ON THE LIST.

To unsub from this list, send a blank email to

WTOAdultChildren1-unsubscribe .

Recommended: " Toxic Parents, " " Surviving a Borderline Parent, " and

" Understanding the Borderline Mother " (hard to find)

[Guest guest]

Agreed; it has to be genes + environment......b/c there are a lot of us that

have siblings with BPD/NPD, but we do not...............it must be the genes

mix, plus perhaps our birth order, plus perhaps other factors, such as excelling

academically, or being particularly lovely, or having very high energy......or,

as another person mentioned, having the good luck to have had a healthy adult

reach out and help us when we are in trouble.

Alastriona

Subject: Re: Is innate resilence the key?

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2011, 10:14 PM

Research studies over the last few years have been leaning toward the conclusion

that personality disorder occurs due to a combination of genetic predisposition

PLUS an invalidating environment. 

So...

If a child is born with very high resilience, then that particular child can

endure more negative environmental factors with less damage.

A child born with very low resilience is going to receive more damage from even

a mildly invalidating environment.

So its an interplay between the child's innate temperamental factors  and the

parenting or environment the child is subjected to.

Another fascinating study shows that the actual brain structure /neural network

of infants and toddlers can be negatively impacted if they do not receive enough

skin-to-skin touch and positive eye-contact /positive mirroring from the mother

or primary care-giver; sufficient positive touch and emotional interaction is

crucial to normal brain development in babies.  When babies don't get enough

touch or interaction with the mother or when babies are actually abused or

neglected,  the resulting damage is called " attachment disorder " and it has the

potential to affect the child for life.

Genes + environment makes a lot of sense to me.

-Annie

>

> I think that, in addition to having a " helping witness " as a child, two other

things may come into play.  One is having something you're good at and get

praised for, so you know you have good things about you and you know you're

competent at something.  The other I think must have to do with the amount of

inherited brain dysfunction you got from nada or fada (or, in the case of some

really unfortunate folks, nada *and* fada.)

>

> Looking back at my own family history, I hear stories told about my great

grandmother that people called " lazy " way back when, but actually sound like

severe clinical depression.  Then I look at my grandfather's behavior and wonder

if he isn't actually borderline as well.  Both nada and aunt have severe

emotional problems.  Then there is my uncle, their brother, who got out

relatively unscathed.  That with all the new research has me thinking a lot

about the heritability of the trait having something to do with this.

>

> --.

>

------------------------------------

**This group is based on principles in Randi Kreger's new book The Essential

Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder: New Tips and Tools to Stop

Walking on Eggshells, available at www.BPDCentral.com.** Problems? Write

@.... DO NOT RESPOND ON THE LIST.

To unsub from this list, send a blank email to

WTOAdultChildren1-unsubscribe .

Recommended: " Toxic Parents, " " Surviving a Borderline Parent, " and

" Understanding the Borderline Mother " (hard to find)

[Guest guest]

Books were my salvation, too....I was reading Green Mansions and Les Miserables

and Lorna Doone and all of Dickens and a ton more, when I was in junior

high/middle school........it was a world " outside " and greatly expanded my

horizons.

Alastriona

Subject: Re: Is innate resilence the key?

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2011, 8:29 AM

The books were my solution too. I don't remember neither one person who would

help me in any way when I was living with my prmial family.

But  when I was 3 years old I learned how to read  - by myself. They refused to

teach me saying I'm too young for that so I tricked them :-) I watched tv news

with them always asking " what is written on screen " ( for example , from Paris,

or London, or.....)

In primary school I have already read books for grown ups including books about

psychology ( from university)  and soon I've found out that that there are a lot

of different realities outside my crazy family and little town where I lived and

that I have to protect myself to survive until I can ran away.

So I decided to raise myself - I didn't have anybody else to do it... I was

about 12 - 13  years old. The outcome was a little bit crazy :-) - problems with

excepting help because of my total independence and not trusting others,

problems with authorities,  lack of some " normal " social skills...but I'm proud

that I escaped from craziness of my family and I did managed to crate my own

(healthier) world. There were moments when I reacted similar like nada or fada

but I managed ( with a looooot of effort to heal and  change that)

My sister wasn't that lucky. They sucked her into their craziness ( all family

was crazy one way or another), she refuse to see that she had problems  and

refuse to confront with her past. She is dead now - indirectly because of that (

long story).

Sometimes she said to me - You are so lucky you have enough power for

changes...But this power came out from little steps I did  ( confronting,

trying, falling, trying again, learning, trying , falling again...) and bit by

bit knowledge and power came. I was not so " powerfull " at the beginning of my

journey, I was totally scared, confused when I was little......the same like

her.  But she was kind of conformist, she always choose the easier ways and

shortcuts,  she always refuse to take ( even small) steps, she just trying to

find others who would do things for her and until the very and she was convinced

that one day some miracle will happen and everything will be different.

Maybe because she was a " golden " child and I was a " bed " one. I think it's much

harder for the " golden " ones -  it is harder to recognize that something is

terribly , terribly wrong - the abuse is not so obviouse.

Yenaine

> >

> > Annie,

> >

> > It is interesting how we all react differently. In another thread here, some

were comparing how their mothers demanded academic excellence from them, etc. My

mother never demanded this from me, but I excelled academically anyways, in the

hopes that it would get me noticed as a person, not just as a possession. Didn't

work. My mother was proud of me as a possession not as a person. And that always

hurt. It's really hard to hear her say the words " I'm so proud of you " because

there is something so weird about the way she says it. It's not believable, and,

to me, she's proud of me in some way that allows her to brag about me to

friends. Yet she never had anything to do with any of my success.

> >

> > I also never equated her behavior with normal. (I never knew it was a

disorder, I just thought it was her.) I knew other people's families didn't

behave that way. I think that the survival of the KO in the BPD environment is

largely affected by how they are cared for by other adults. I realize now that I

had many other adults in my life that I looked up to and replaced as role models

over my parents. Unfortunately, some KOs will not have other caring adults in

their lives. I worry for them.

> >

> > But make no mistake, even with other adults in my life, I still am

susceptible to FOG, hoovering, emotional triggers, etc.

> >

>

------------------------------------

**This group is based on principles in Randi Kreger's new book The Essential

Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder: New Tips and Tools to Stop

Walking on Eggshells, available at www.BPDCentral.com.** Problems? Write

@.... DO NOT RESPOND ON THE LIST.

To unsub from this list, send a blank email to

WTOAdultChildren1-unsubscribe .

Recommended: " Toxic Parents, " " Surviving a Borderline Parent, " and

" Understanding the Borderline Mother " (hard to find)

[Guest guest]

Books were my salvation, too....I was reading Green Mansions and Les Miserables

and Lorna Doone and all of Dickens and a ton more, when I was in junior

high/middle school........it was a world " outside " and greatly expanded my

horizons.

Alastriona

Subject: Re: Is innate resilence the key?

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2011, 8:29 AM

The books were my solution too. I don't remember neither one person who would

help me in any way when I was living with my prmial family.

But  when I was 3 years old I learned how to read  - by myself. They refused to

teach me saying I'm too young for that so I tricked them :-) I watched tv news

with them always asking " what is written on screen " ( for example , from Paris,

or London, or.....)

In primary school I have already read books for grown ups including books about

psychology ( from university)  and soon I've found out that that there are a lot

of different realities outside my crazy family and little town where I lived and

that I have to protect myself to survive until I can ran away.

So I decided to raise myself - I didn't have anybody else to do it... I was

about 12 - 13  years old. The outcome was a little bit crazy :-) - problems with

excepting help because of my total independence and not trusting others,

problems with authorities,  lack of some " normal " social skills...but I'm proud

that I escaped from craziness of my family and I did managed to crate my own

(healthier) world. There were moments when I reacted similar like nada or fada

but I managed ( with a looooot of effort to heal and  change that)

My sister wasn't that lucky. They sucked her into their craziness ( all family

was crazy one way or another), she refuse to see that she had problems  and

refuse to confront with her past. She is dead now - indirectly because of that (

long story).

Sometimes she said to me - You are so lucky you have enough power for

changes...But this power came out from little steps I did  ( confronting,

trying, falling, trying again, learning, trying , falling again...) and bit by

bit knowledge and power came. I was not so " powerfull " at the beginning of my

journey, I was totally scared, confused when I was little......the same like

her.  But she was kind of conformist, she always choose the easier ways and

shortcuts,  she always refuse to take ( even small) steps, she just trying to

find others who would do things for her and until the very and she was convinced

that one day some miracle will happen and everything will be different.

Maybe because she was a " golden " child and I was a " bed " one. I think it's much

harder for the " golden " ones -  it is harder to recognize that something is

terribly , terribly wrong - the abuse is not so obviouse.

Yenaine

> >

> > Annie,

> >

> > It is interesting how we all react differently. In another thread here, some

were comparing how their mothers demanded academic excellence from them, etc. My

mother never demanded this from me, but I excelled academically anyways, in the

hopes that it would get me noticed as a person, not just as a possession. Didn't

work. My mother was proud of me as a possession not as a person. And that always

hurt. It's really hard to hear her say the words " I'm so proud of you " because

there is something so weird about the way she says it. It's not believable, and,

to me, she's proud of me in some way that allows her to brag about me to

friends. Yet she never had anything to do with any of my success.

> >

> > I also never equated her behavior with normal. (I never knew it was a

disorder, I just thought it was her.) I knew other people's families didn't

behave that way. I think that the survival of the KO in the BPD environment is

largely affected by how they are cared for by other adults. I realize now that I

had many other adults in my life that I looked up to and replaced as role models

over my parents. Unfortunately, some KOs will not have other caring adults in

their lives. I worry for them.

> >

> > But make no mistake, even with other adults in my life, I still am

susceptible to FOG, hoovering, emotional triggers, etc.

> >

>

------------------------------------

**This group is based on principles in Randi Kreger's new book The Essential

Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder: New Tips and Tools to Stop

Walking on Eggshells, available at www.BPDCentral.com.** Problems? Write

@.... DO NOT RESPOND ON THE LIST.

To unsub from this list, send a blank email to

WTOAdultChildren1-unsubscribe .

Recommended: " Toxic Parents, " " Surviving a Borderline Parent, " and

" Understanding the Borderline Mother " (hard to find)

[Guest guest]

Books were my salvation, too....I was reading Green Mansions and Les Miserables

and Lorna Doone and all of Dickens and a ton more, when I was in junior

high/middle school........it was a world " outside " and greatly expanded my

horizons.

Alastriona

Subject: Re: Is innate resilence the key?

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2011, 8:29 AM

The books were my solution too. I don't remember neither one person who would

help me in any way when I was living with my prmial family.

But  when I was 3 years old I learned how to read  - by myself. They refused to

teach me saying I'm too young for that so I tricked them :-) I watched tv news

with them always asking " what is written on screen " ( for example , from Paris,

or London, or.....)

In primary school I have already read books for grown ups including books about

psychology ( from university)  and soon I've found out that that there are a lot

of different realities outside my crazy family and little town where I lived and

that I have to protect myself to survive until I can ran away.

So I decided to raise myself - I didn't have anybody else to do it... I was

about 12 - 13  years old. The outcome was a little bit crazy :-) - problems with

excepting help because of my total independence and not trusting others,

problems with authorities,  lack of some " normal " social skills...but I'm proud

that I escaped from craziness of my family and I did managed to crate my own

(healthier) world. There were moments when I reacted similar like nada or fada

but I managed ( with a looooot of effort to heal and  change that)

My sister wasn't that lucky. They sucked her into their craziness ( all family

was crazy one way or another), she refuse to see that she had problems  and

refuse to confront with her past. She is dead now - indirectly because of that (

long story).

Sometimes she said to me - You are so lucky you have enough power for

changes...But this power came out from little steps I did  ( confronting,

trying, falling, trying again, learning, trying , falling again...) and bit by

bit knowledge and power came. I was not so " powerfull " at the beginning of my

journey, I was totally scared, confused when I was little......the same like

her.  But she was kind of conformist, she always choose the easier ways and

shortcuts,  she always refuse to take ( even small) steps, she just trying to

find others who would do things for her and until the very and she was convinced

that one day some miracle will happen and everything will be different.

Maybe because she was a " golden " child and I was a " bed " one. I think it's much

harder for the " golden " ones -  it is harder to recognize that something is

terribly , terribly wrong - the abuse is not so obviouse.

Yenaine

> >

> > Annie,

> >

> > It is interesting how we all react differently. In another thread here, some

were comparing how their mothers demanded academic excellence from them, etc. My

mother never demanded this from me, but I excelled academically anyways, in the

hopes that it would get me noticed as a person, not just as a possession. Didn't

work. My mother was proud of me as a possession not as a person. And that always

hurt. It's really hard to hear her say the words " I'm so proud of you " because

there is something so weird about the way she says it. It's not believable, and,

to me, she's proud of me in some way that allows her to brag about me to

friends. Yet she never had anything to do with any of my success.

> >

> > I also never equated her behavior with normal. (I never knew it was a

disorder, I just thought it was her.) I knew other people's families didn't

behave that way. I think that the survival of the KO in the BPD environment is

largely affected by how they are cared for by other adults. I realize now that I

had many other adults in my life that I looked up to and replaced as role models

over my parents. Unfortunately, some KOs will not have other caring adults in

their lives. I worry for them.

> >

> > But make no mistake, even with other adults in my life, I still am

susceptible to FOG, hoovering, emotional triggers, etc.

> >

>

------------------------------------

**This group is based on principles in Randi Kreger's new book The Essential

Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder: New Tips and Tools to Stop

Walking on Eggshells, available at www.BPDCentral.com.** Problems? Write

@.... DO NOT RESPOND ON THE LIST.

To unsub from this list, send a blank email to

WTOAdultChildren1-unsubscribe .

Recommended: " Toxic Parents, " " Surviving a Borderline Parent, " and

" Understanding the Borderline Mother " (hard to find)

[Guest guest]

Thanks for sharing your amazing childhood with us, Yenaine. You have such an

unusual situation: your super-high intelligence helped you survive and escape

from your toxic family dynamics. (I think its incredibly rare for a 3-year-old

to be able to teach herself how to read! Wow!) And I think your assessment

that the " golden child " in some ways has it worse than the " scapegoat " child is

correct. I agree.

In some ways the child designated as " golden " is like a calf penned up and

fatted to become a meal. All the calf knows is that it gets lots of food, but

it can't run around and play, its stuck in the small pen. The calf's world is

so highly restricted that it doesn't grow normally, but the calf doesn't know

any different: that's its reality. And if it were released, it would be too

weak and obese to function adequately; it would need to be " rehabilitated " to

normal functioning levels.

The child designated as the " scapegoat " child and the " invisible " child are

being abused too, but in different ways.

The " invisible " child is basically abandoned, left to raise herself like a feral

child; and the " scapegoat " child is actually actively persecuted and tormented,

so these two have no motive to stick around the family of origin.

I'm so sorry your sister didn't survive, but I'm very glad that you did,

Yenaine.

-Annie

> > >

> > > Annie,

> > >

> > > It is interesting how we all react differently. In another thread here,

some were comparing how their mothers demanded academic excellence from them,

etc. My mother never demanded this from me, but I excelled academically anyways,

in the hopes that it would get me noticed as a person, not just as a possession.

Didn't work. My mother was proud of me as a possession not as a person. And that

always hurt. It's really hard to hear her say the words " I'm so proud of you "

because there is something so weird about the way she says it. It's not

believable, and, to me, she's proud of me in some way that allows her to brag

about me to friends. Yet she never had anything to do with any of my success.

> > >

> > > I also never equated her behavior with normal. (I never knew it was a

disorder, I just thought it was her.) I knew other people's families didn't

behave that way. I think that the survival of the KO in the BPD environment is

largely affected by how they are cared for by other adults. I realize now that I

had many other adults in my life that I looked up to and replaced as role models

over my parents. Unfortunately, some KOs will not have other caring adults in

their lives. I worry for them.

> > >

> > > But make no mistake, even with other adults in my life, I still am

susceptible to FOG, hoovering, emotional triggers, etc.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yes; seems to me that there must be many possible, potential combinations of

factors/variables that result in bpd, otherwise we'd already know what causes it

and there would be preventions and effective treatments or even cures in place.

Unfortunately, personality disorder does not seem to have one single cause, like

a single nasty virus that we can develop a vaccine for and inoculate everyone

against.

-Annie

>

> Agreed; it has to be genes + environment......b/c there are a lot of us that

have siblings with BPD/NPD, but we do not...............it must be the genes

mix, plus perhaps our birth order, plus perhaps other factors, such as excelling

academically, or being particularly lovely, or having very high energy......or,

as another person mentioned, having the good luck to have had a healthy adult

reach out and help us when we are in trouble.

>

> Alastriona

[Guest guest]

Yes; seems to me that there must be many possible, potential combinations of

factors/variables that result in bpd, otherwise we'd already know what causes it

and there would be preventions and effective treatments or even cures in place.

Unfortunately, personality disorder does not seem to have one single cause, like

a single nasty virus that we can develop a vaccine for and inoculate everyone

against.

-Annie

>

> Agreed; it has to be genes + environment......b/c there are a lot of us that

have siblings with BPD/NPD, but we do not...............it must be the genes

mix, plus perhaps our birth order, plus perhaps other factors, such as excelling

academically, or being particularly lovely, or having very high energy......or,

as another person mentioned, having the good luck to have had a healthy adult

reach out and help us when we are in trouble.

>

> Alastriona