Guest guest Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Hi Kay, That was my comment that you're quoting. I like hearing about this research. I find it validating somehow to know that this research reflects my own experience. I always wondered why I was able to survive this screwed up family dynamic--and part of me wondered if it was just luck and that one day it would run out. But hearing about your class and what you're learning reassures me in a way that it's not just luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 I am reading all this with wonder. To find others who understand is such a gift of validation of my sanity. In reference to resilient children, I always wondered why I seemed to rise above, or not be as beaten down by my mother's behavior as my brothers, I always attributed it to my reading. As a child I was a voracious reader, especially loved were Little women, Little men, Heidi, The seven little peppers and how they grew and Indian Captive. I believed through them I was able to see and incorporate what a loving family, loving parent was and could recognize that my parents, my family was not as it should be. I gave myself the image of what a family should be and did not accept the dysfunctional one I lived with. Or am I giving myself too much credit and it is simply a matter of a personality trait I was born with? I would rather think that somehow I was able to protect and nurture myself in some small way. > > Annie, > > It is interesting how we all react differently. In another thread here, some were comparing how their mothers demanded academic excellence from them, etc. My mother never demanded this from me, but I excelled academically anyways, in the hopes that it would get me noticed as a person, not just as a possession. Didn't work. My mother was proud of me as a possession not as a person. And that always hurt. It's really hard to hear her say the words " I'm so proud of you " because there is something so weird about the way she says it. It's not believable, and, to me, she's proud of me in some way that allows her to brag about me to friends. Yet she never had anything to do with any of my success. > > I also never equated her behavior with normal. (I never knew it was a disorder, I just thought it was her.) I knew other people's families didn't behave that way. I think that the survival of the KO in the BPD environment is largely affected by how they are cared for by other adults. I realize now that I had many other adults in my life that I looked up to and replaced as role models over my parents. Unfortunately, some KOs will not have other caring adults in their lives. I worry for them. > > But make no mistake, even with other adults in my life, I still am susceptible to FOG, hoovering, emotional triggers, etc. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Hi Annie It's fascinating to me why some people who were abused as children grow up to reject that legacy and why others perpetuate it.Great idea for a thread... About Dave Pelzer...I think a major factor in his resilience is the fact that he was *rescued*.His distress was acknowledged and attended to.I can't even imagine what a difference that would have made for me,personally.I got the opposite of that.If one person had validated my reality let alone gotten me out of there,I think that I'd be much much further along in my healing by now.I really don't think that the healing power of rescue and validation of abuse can be under estimated. Aileen Wournos seems to have had some serious PD resulting from her abuse---I can only speculate that it was only the result of her abuse and not something organic that was also going on but a difference between her and Pelzer is that one: she was not rescued and two: I recall reading that she was sexually abused as a child.The sexual abuse along with never being rescued adds a layer of trauma complexity that is more than Pelzer endured,although what he endured is undoubtably horrific. I was an " it " to nada like Pelzer and I guess the sex abuse I went through was as devastating as Aileen's and although I wasn't unscathed by it by any means I think that I have been able to stay off of death row lol because I continued as a child to have faith in humanity in general.I had no real examples of this in my daily life but I held out hope that the rest of the world was better than what I knew.I no longer have that faith but at the time when my brain was developing I held tight to it--to the very notion of possibility,of hope--and that is what prevented my mind from permanently warping even though I wasn't rescued but continuously abused until I got out. One of my favorite poems is by the ultra sensitive Hungarian poet Atila f, " To Sit To Stand To Kill To Die " ,the concluding lines of which are: " You bring laughter,you bring weeping Oh my life,you make me choose. " It seems to me that resilience is deciding that we do have a choice. > > There is a book about bpd, one of the earliest published on the subject (I think) called: > " I Hate You, Don't Leave Me. " > > The last line in Jaie's most recent poem could be the mirror image of that sentiment: > " I Love You, But Go Away. " > > Yes, I believe there is a great need for more books from the KO's perspective, because the parent-child bond is the first and most influential relationship in a person's life. You only get one shot at being a one-year-old, an eight-year-old, etc., and the home environment/the parental relationship can have such an enormous impact on development. > > " A Child Called 'It' " is about a young boy singled out from his brothers for shocking physical and emotional abuse and deprivation by his undiagnosed but probably paranoid-schizophrenic or psychopathic pd mother. His father was mostly away from home and at first tried to protect this son, but then he pretty much abandoned his family. " It " was designated the family servant; he had to do all the housework except anything involving food, and not doing the chores " right " got him beaten, burned, slammed around hard enough to break bones, and even stabbed with a kitchen knife in the liver. His mother denied him any food and forced him to live in the basement. " It " managed to survive for years scavenging garbage, the pet's food, and filching bits of his classmates' food at school. Oddly enough, the mother insisted that " It " attend school obviously neglected, ragged, battered and malnourished as he was! > > Finally his teacher and the principal were made aware of the food-stealing, then noticed the boy's condition (the malnourishment, the old and new wounds, the ragged, ill-fitting clothes and shoes), notified the proper authorities and the boy was rescued. > > The point of all this is that this hideous physical and emotional abuse didn't break this particular boy's mind and spirit. He managed to survive without turning into an abuser or a criminal himself, his intelligence and his humanity intact. And now as a husband and father himself, he advocates for awareness of mental illness and child protection. > > I can only speculate that different individuals must have innately different levels of resilience. Do some children have a unique inner core of strength that allows them to endure the most unspeakable abuse and yet survive it with their humanity intact, while other children wind up emotionally broken and crippled by their mistreatment, or become savage abusers themselves? > > Its an interesting conundrum: why some people survive abuse with less damage, and some don't. I can't help but be fascinated and wonder why some abused children like Aileen Wuornos become abusers or worse as adults and others like Dave Pelzer, the child called " It " , transcend it. > > -Annie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Hi Annie It's fascinating to me why some people who were abused as children grow up to reject that legacy and why others perpetuate it.Great idea for a thread... About Dave Pelzer...I think a major factor in his resilience is the fact that he was *rescued*.His distress was acknowledged and attended to.I can't even imagine what a difference that would have made for me,personally.I got the opposite of that.If one person had validated my reality let alone gotten me out of there,I think that I'd be much much further along in my healing by now.I really don't think that the healing power of rescue and validation of abuse can be under estimated. Aileen Wournos seems to have had some serious PD resulting from her abuse---I can only speculate that it was only the result of her abuse and not something organic that was also going on but a difference between her and Pelzer is that one: she was not rescued and two: I recall reading that she was sexually abused as a child.The sexual abuse along with never being rescued adds a layer of trauma complexity that is more than Pelzer endured,although what he endured is undoubtably horrific. I was an " it " to nada like Pelzer and I guess the sex abuse I went through was as devastating as Aileen's and although I wasn't unscathed by it by any means I think that I have been able to stay off of death row lol because I continued as a child to have faith in humanity in general.I had no real examples of this in my daily life but I held out hope that the rest of the world was better than what I knew.I no longer have that faith but at the time when my brain was developing I held tight to it--to the very notion of possibility,of hope--and that is what prevented my mind from permanently warping even though I wasn't rescued but continuously abused until I got out. One of my favorite poems is by the ultra sensitive Hungarian poet Atila f, " To Sit To Stand To Kill To Die " ,the concluding lines of which are: " You bring laughter,you bring weeping Oh my life,you make me choose. " It seems to me that resilience is deciding that we do have a choice. > > There is a book about bpd, one of the earliest published on the subject (I think) called: > " I Hate You, Don't Leave Me. " > > The last line in Jaie's most recent poem could be the mirror image of that sentiment: > " I Love You, But Go Away. " > > Yes, I believe there is a great need for more books from the KO's perspective, because the parent-child bond is the first and most influential relationship in a person's life. You only get one shot at being a one-year-old, an eight-year-old, etc., and the home environment/the parental relationship can have such an enormous impact on development. > > " A Child Called 'It' " is about a young boy singled out from his brothers for shocking physical and emotional abuse and deprivation by his undiagnosed but probably paranoid-schizophrenic or psychopathic pd mother. His father was mostly away from home and at first tried to protect this son, but then he pretty much abandoned his family. " It " was designated the family servant; he had to do all the housework except anything involving food, and not doing the chores " right " got him beaten, burned, slammed around hard enough to break bones, and even stabbed with a kitchen knife in the liver. His mother denied him any food and forced him to live in the basement. " It " managed to survive for years scavenging garbage, the pet's food, and filching bits of his classmates' food at school. Oddly enough, the mother insisted that " It " attend school obviously neglected, ragged, battered and malnourished as he was! > > Finally his teacher and the principal were made aware of the food-stealing, then noticed the boy's condition (the malnourishment, the old and new wounds, the ragged, ill-fitting clothes and shoes), notified the proper authorities and the boy was rescued. > > The point of all this is that this hideous physical and emotional abuse didn't break this particular boy's mind and spirit. He managed to survive without turning into an abuser or a criminal himself, his intelligence and his humanity intact. And now as a husband and father himself, he advocates for awareness of mental illness and child protection. > > I can only speculate that different individuals must have innately different levels of resilience. Do some children have a unique inner core of strength that allows them to endure the most unspeakable abuse and yet survive it with their humanity intact, while other children wind up emotionally broken and crippled by their mistreatment, or become savage abusers themselves? > > Its an interesting conundrum: why some people survive abuse with less damage, and some don't. I can't help but be fascinated and wonder why some abused children like Aileen Wuornos become abusers or worse as adults and others like Dave Pelzer, the child called " It " , transcend it. > > -Annie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Hi Annie It's fascinating to me why some people who were abused as children grow up to reject that legacy and why others perpetuate it.Great idea for a thread... About Dave Pelzer...I think a major factor in his resilience is the fact that he was *rescued*.His distress was acknowledged and attended to.I can't even imagine what a difference that would have made for me,personally.I got the opposite of that.If one person had validated my reality let alone gotten me out of there,I think that I'd be much much further along in my healing by now.I really don't think that the healing power of rescue and validation of abuse can be under estimated. Aileen Wournos seems to have had some serious PD resulting from her abuse---I can only speculate that it was only the result of her abuse and not something organic that was also going on but a difference between her and Pelzer is that one: she was not rescued and two: I recall reading that she was sexually abused as a child.The sexual abuse along with never being rescued adds a layer of trauma complexity that is more than Pelzer endured,although what he endured is undoubtably horrific. I was an " it " to nada like Pelzer and I guess the sex abuse I went through was as devastating as Aileen's and although I wasn't unscathed by it by any means I think that I have been able to stay off of death row lol because I continued as a child to have faith in humanity in general.I had no real examples of this in my daily life but I held out hope that the rest of the world was better than what I knew.I no longer have that faith but at the time when my brain was developing I held tight to it--to the very notion of possibility,of hope--and that is what prevented my mind from permanently warping even though I wasn't rescued but continuously abused until I got out. One of my favorite poems is by the ultra sensitive Hungarian poet Atila f, " To Sit To Stand To Kill To Die " ,the concluding lines of which are: " You bring laughter,you bring weeping Oh my life,you make me choose. " It seems to me that resilience is deciding that we do have a choice. > > There is a book about bpd, one of the earliest published on the subject (I think) called: > " I Hate You, Don't Leave Me. " > > The last line in Jaie's most recent poem could be the mirror image of that sentiment: > " I Love You, But Go Away. " > > Yes, I believe there is a great need for more books from the KO's perspective, because the parent-child bond is the first and most influential relationship in a person's life. You only get one shot at being a one-year-old, an eight-year-old, etc., and the home environment/the parental relationship can have such an enormous impact on development. > > " A Child Called 'It' " is about a young boy singled out from his brothers for shocking physical and emotional abuse and deprivation by his undiagnosed but probably paranoid-schizophrenic or psychopathic pd mother. His father was mostly away from home and at first tried to protect this son, but then he pretty much abandoned his family. " It " was designated the family servant; he had to do all the housework except anything involving food, and not doing the chores " right " got him beaten, burned, slammed around hard enough to break bones, and even stabbed with a kitchen knife in the liver. His mother denied him any food and forced him to live in the basement. " It " managed to survive for years scavenging garbage, the pet's food, and filching bits of his classmates' food at school. Oddly enough, the mother insisted that " It " attend school obviously neglected, ragged, battered and malnourished as he was! > > Finally his teacher and the principal were made aware of the food-stealing, then noticed the boy's condition (the malnourishment, the old and new wounds, the ragged, ill-fitting clothes and shoes), notified the proper authorities and the boy was rescued. > > The point of all this is that this hideous physical and emotional abuse didn't break this particular boy's mind and spirit. He managed to survive without turning into an abuser or a criminal himself, his intelligence and his humanity intact. And now as a husband and father himself, he advocates for awareness of mental illness and child protection. > > I can only speculate that different individuals must have innately different levels of resilience. Do some children have a unique inner core of strength that allows them to endure the most unspeakable abuse and yet survive it with their humanity intact, while other children wind up emotionally broken and crippled by their mistreatment, or become savage abusers themselves? > > Its an interesting conundrum: why some people survive abuse with less damage, and some don't. I can't help but be fascinated and wonder why some abused children like Aileen Wuornos become abusers or worse as adults and others like Dave Pelzer, the child called " It " , transcend it. > > -Annie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 I think it's a combination of the events in our early lives - other adults taking an interest and exposure to helpful ideas - and also our genetics. Siblings can have very different genetics, and something as simple as one gene such as the serotonin transporter gene can determine the brain's ability to self-soothe and recover from stress. And that's just one gene there's no doubt other aspects of the brain that are hardwired from birth to determine a person's vulnerability to long-term damage from trauma. > > > > Annie, > > > > It is interesting how we all react differently. In another thread here, some were comparing how their mothers demanded academic excellence from them, etc. My mother never demanded this from me, but I excelled academically anyways, in the hopes that it would get me noticed as a person, not just as a possession. Didn't work. My mother was proud of me as a possession not as a person. And that always hurt. It's really hard to hear her say the words " I'm so proud of you " because there is something so weird about the way she says it. It's not believable, and, to me, she's proud of me in some way that allows her to brag about me to friends. Yet she never had anything to do with any of my success. > > > > I also never equated her behavior with normal. (I never knew it was a disorder, I just thought it was her.) I knew other people's families didn't behave that way. I think that the survival of the KO in the BPD environment is largely affected by how they are cared for by other adults. I realize now that I had many other adults in my life that I looked up to and replaced as role models over my parents. Unfortunately, some KOs will not have other caring adults in their lives. I worry for them. > > > > But make no mistake, even with other adults in my life, I still am susceptible to FOG, hoovering, emotional triggers, etc. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 I think it's a combination of the events in our early lives - other adults taking an interest and exposure to helpful ideas - and also our genetics. Siblings can have very different genetics, and something as simple as one gene such as the serotonin transporter gene can determine the brain's ability to self-soothe and recover from stress. And that's just one gene there's no doubt other aspects of the brain that are hardwired from birth to determine a person's vulnerability to long-term damage from trauma. > > > > Annie, > > > > It is interesting how we all react differently. In another thread here, some were comparing how their mothers demanded academic excellence from them, etc. My mother never demanded this from me, but I excelled academically anyways, in the hopes that it would get me noticed as a person, not just as a possession. Didn't work. My mother was proud of me as a possession not as a person. And that always hurt. It's really hard to hear her say the words " I'm so proud of you " because there is something so weird about the way she says it. It's not believable, and, to me, she's proud of me in some way that allows her to brag about me to friends. Yet she never had anything to do with any of my success. > > > > I also never equated her behavior with normal. (I never knew it was a disorder, I just thought it was her.) I knew other people's families didn't behave that way. I think that the survival of the KO in the BPD environment is largely affected by how they are cared for by other adults. I realize now that I had many other adults in my life that I looked up to and replaced as role models over my parents. Unfortunately, some KOs will not have other caring adults in their lives. I worry for them. > > > > But make no mistake, even with other adults in my life, I still am susceptible to FOG, hoovering, emotional triggers, etc. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 I think that, in addition to having a " helping witness " as a child, two other things may come into play. One is having something you're good at and get praised for, so you know you have good things about you and you know you're competent at something. The other I think must have to do with the amount of inherited brain dysfunction you got from nada or fada (or, in the case of some really unfortunate folks, nada *and* fada.) Looking back at my own family history, I hear stories told about my great grandmother that people called " lazy " way back when, but actually sound like severe clinical depression. Then I look at my grandfather's behavior and wonder if he isn't actually borderline as well. Both nada and aunt have severe emotional problems. Then there is my uncle, their brother, who got out relatively unscathed. That with all the new research has me thinking a lot about the heritability of the trait having something to do with this. --. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 Research studies over the last few years have been leaning toward the conclusion that personality disorder occurs due to a combination of genetic predisposition PLUS an invalidating environment. So... If a child is born with very high resilience, then that particular child can endure more negative environmental factors with less damage. A child born with very low resilience is going to receive more damage from even a mildly invalidating environment. So its an interplay between the child's innate temperamental factors and the parenting or environment the child is subjected to. Another fascinating study shows that the actual brain structure /neural network of infants and toddlers can be negatively impacted if they do not receive enough skin-to-skin touch and positive eye-contact /positive mirroring from the mother or primary care-giver; sufficient positive touch and emotional interaction is crucial to normal brain development in babies. When babies don't get enough touch or interaction with the mother or when babies are actually abused or neglected, the resulting damage is called " attachment disorder " and it has the potential to affect the child for life. Genes + environment makes a lot of sense to me. -Annie > > I think that, in addition to having a " helping witness " as a child, two other things may come into play. One is having something you're good at and get praised for, so you know you have good things about you and you know you're competent at something. The other I think must have to do with the amount of inherited brain dysfunction you got from nada or fada (or, in the case of some really unfortunate folks, nada *and* fada.) > > Looking back at my own family history, I hear stories told about my great grandmother that people called " lazy " way back when, but actually sound like severe clinical depression. Then I look at my grandfather's behavior and wonder if he isn't actually borderline as well. Both nada and aunt have severe emotional problems. Then there is my uncle, their brother, who got out relatively unscathed. That with all the new research has me thinking a lot about the heritability of the trait having something to do with this. > > --. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 Research studies over the last few years have been leaning toward the conclusion that personality disorder occurs due to a combination of genetic predisposition PLUS an invalidating environment. So... If a child is born with very high resilience, then that particular child can endure more negative environmental factors with less damage. A child born with very low resilience is going to receive more damage from even a mildly invalidating environment. So its an interplay between the child's innate temperamental factors and the parenting or environment the child is subjected to. Another fascinating study shows that the actual brain structure /neural network of infants and toddlers can be negatively impacted if they do not receive enough skin-to-skin touch and positive eye-contact /positive mirroring from the mother or primary care-giver; sufficient positive touch and emotional interaction is crucial to normal brain development in babies. When babies don't get enough touch or interaction with the mother or when babies are actually abused or neglected, the resulting damage is called " attachment disorder " and it has the potential to affect the child for life. Genes + environment makes a lot of sense to me. -Annie > > I think that, in addition to having a " helping witness " as a child, two other things may come into play. One is having something you're good at and get praised for, so you know you have good things about you and you know you're competent at something. The other I think must have to do with the amount of inherited brain dysfunction you got from nada or fada (or, in the case of some really unfortunate folks, nada *and* fada.) > > Looking back at my own family history, I hear stories told about my great grandmother that people called " lazy " way back when, but actually sound like severe clinical depression. Then I look at my grandfather's behavior and wonder if he isn't actually borderline as well. Both nada and aunt have severe emotional problems. Then there is my uncle, their brother, who got out relatively unscathed. That with all the new research has me thinking a lot about the heritability of the trait having something to do with this. > > --. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Yenaine - YES! You are very right. I think it is harder, or at least just plain hard, for the " golden " child. I was my father's golden child. I could do no wrong--as long as I always did as he said and agreed with me. As long as I wasn't noisy. As long as I sat around reading books. As long as I didn't show any interest in boys or show signs that I was growing up. For some reason, my father really disliked my brother. I don't know if I will ever know why. [My father is dead.] I can feel myself even now, getting upset about this, how my father would use me against my brother. " Why can't you be more like your sister? Your sister did it right? Why can't you? " One memory I will never, ever forget and that I have trouble understanding WHY my father did this: my brother loved his comic books. Even now, he loves them. My father could be very, very mean and mean-spirited. He saw how much my brother relished his comics. So one day, he gets on my brother's case about something he did wrong, so my father says to me, " Fiona, bring me the comic books. " My brother started to scream. [it is very, very hard to write this.] I said no. He said, " Fiona NOW. " So I brought them to him. Compliant and obedient. He slowly and with a big smile ripped them up in front of my brother. It was so cruel. I still feel such shame and guilt over that and so many other times my father chose me over my brother and I hated my father for it. I hated being liked by him. I became my brother's rescuer and cheerleader, to the point of codependence. Now, I avoid his company, I'm sure in part because of all these dynamics, but also because it's just hard to be around him. He's a very melancholy, solitary person and it takes me so much energy to take in all he has to say. I know that I know that I know my father scarred him for life, emotionally. But he won't get help. Anyway, yes, it sucks being the golden one. I'm glad I'm not any more. I wish I'd had the courage to grab the comics and run out of the room. Fiona > > > > > > Annie, > > > > > > It is interesting how we all react differently. In another thread here, some were comparing how their mothers demanded academic excellence from them, etc. My mother never demanded this from me, but I excelled academically anyways, in the hopes that it would get me noticed as a person, not just as a possession. Didn't work. My mother was proud of me as a possession not as a person. And that always hurt. It's really hard to hear her say the words " I'm so proud of you " because there is something so weird about the way she says it. It's not believable, and, to me, she's proud of me in some way that allows her to brag about me to friends. Yet she never had anything to do with any of my success. > > > > > > I also never equated her behavior with normal. (I never knew it was a disorder, I just thought it was her.) I knew other people's families didn't behave that way. I think that the survival of the KO in the BPD environment is largely affected by how they are cared for by other adults. I realize now that I had many other adults in my life that I looked up to and replaced as role models over my parents. Unfortunately, some KOs will not have other caring adults in their lives. I worry for them. > > > > > > But make no mistake, even with other adults in my life, I still am susceptible to FOG, hoovering, emotional triggers, etc. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Yenaine - YES! You are very right. I think it is harder, or at least just plain hard, for the " golden " child. I was my father's golden child. I could do no wrong--as long as I always did as he said and agreed with me. As long as I wasn't noisy. As long as I sat around reading books. As long as I didn't show any interest in boys or show signs that I was growing up. For some reason, my father really disliked my brother. I don't know if I will ever know why. [My father is dead.] I can feel myself even now, getting upset about this, how my father would use me against my brother. " Why can't you be more like your sister? Your sister did it right? Why can't you? " One memory I will never, ever forget and that I have trouble understanding WHY my father did this: my brother loved his comic books. Even now, he loves them. My father could be very, very mean and mean-spirited. He saw how much my brother relished his comics. So one day, he gets on my brother's case about something he did wrong, so my father says to me, " Fiona, bring me the comic books. " My brother started to scream. [it is very, very hard to write this.] I said no. He said, " Fiona NOW. " So I brought them to him. Compliant and obedient. He slowly and with a big smile ripped them up in front of my brother. It was so cruel. I still feel such shame and guilt over that and so many other times my father chose me over my brother and I hated my father for it. I hated being liked by him. I became my brother's rescuer and cheerleader, to the point of codependence. Now, I avoid his company, I'm sure in part because of all these dynamics, but also because it's just hard to be around him. He's a very melancholy, solitary person and it takes me so much energy to take in all he has to say. I know that I know that I know my father scarred him for life, emotionally. But he won't get help. Anyway, yes, it sucks being the golden one. I'm glad I'm not any more. I wish I'd had the courage to grab the comics and run out of the room. Fiona > > > > > > Annie, > > > > > > It is interesting how we all react differently. In another thread here, some were comparing how their mothers demanded academic excellence from them, etc. My mother never demanded this from me, but I excelled academically anyways, in the hopes that it would get me noticed as a person, not just as a possession. Didn't work. My mother was proud of me as a possession not as a person. And that always hurt. It's really hard to hear her say the words " I'm so proud of you " because there is something so weird about the way she says it. It's not believable, and, to me, she's proud of me in some way that allows her to brag about me to friends. Yet she never had anything to do with any of my success. > > > > > > I also never equated her behavior with normal. (I never knew it was a disorder, I just thought it was her.) I knew other people's families didn't behave that way. I think that the survival of the KO in the BPD environment is largely affected by how they are cared for by other adults. I realize now that I had many other adults in my life that I looked up to and replaced as role models over my parents. Unfortunately, some KOs will not have other caring adults in their lives. I worry for them. > > > > > > But make no mistake, even with other adults in my life, I still am susceptible to FOG, hoovering, emotional triggers, etc. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 as " golden " is like a calf penned up and fatted to become a meal. All the calf knows is that it gets lots of food, but it can't run around and play, its stuck in the small pen. The calf's world is so highly restricted that it doesn't grow normally, but the calf doesn't know any different: that's its reality Annie that is such a good analogy. I have 2 friends who where " golden " child too and I'm always surprised how it is hard for them to recognize even the hardest abuse and how they struggle to expres thier will or do something about it. Being a bad one it really is like being a feral child . You have to struggle from the beginning to survive. It can break you and you are lost in a dark or it can give you enormous power. Both have a lot of problems when they grow up but the way how to cope with it is different. Like you said my intelligence helped me to survive but sometimes I wonder what it would happened if I would use it for some other things not just for surviving and fixing my damaged self almost all my life. I achieve quite a lot in my life but still....what a waste. Yenaine 2011/1/19 anuria67854 > > > Thanks for sharing your amazing childhood with us, Yenaine. You have such > an unusual situation: your super-high intelligence helped you survive and > escape from your toxic family dynamics. (I think its incredibly rare for a > 3-year-old to be able to teach herself how to read! Wow!) And I think your > assessment that the " golden child " in some ways has it worse than the > " scapegoat " child is correct. I agree. > > In some ways the child designated . And if it were released, it would be > too weak and obese to function adequately; it would need to be > " rehabilitated " to normal functioning levels. > > The child designated as the " scapegoat " child and the " invisible " child are > being abused too, but in different ways. > > The " invisible " child is basically abandoned, left to raise herself like a > feral child; and the " scapegoat " child is actually actively persecuted and > tormented, so these two have no motive to stick around the family of origin. > > I'm so sorry your sister didn't survive, but I'm very glad that you did, > Yenaine. > > -Annie > > > > > > > > > > > Annie, > > > > > > > > It is interesting how we all react differently. In another thread > here, some were comparing how their mothers demanded academic excellence > from them, etc. My mother never demanded this from me, but I excelled > academically anyways, in the hopes that it would get me noticed as a person, > not just as a possession. Didn't work. My mother was proud of me as a > possession not as a person. And that always hurt. It's really hard to hear > her say the words " I'm so proud of you " because there is something so weird > about the way she says it. It's not believable, and, to me, she's proud of > me in some way that allows her to brag about me to friends. Yet she never > had anything to do with any of my success. > > > > > > > > I also never equated her behavior with normal. (I never knew it was a > disorder, I just thought it was her.) I knew other people's families didn't > behave that way. I think that the survival of the KO in the BPD environment > is largely affected by how they are cared for by other adults. I realize now > that I had many other adults in my life that I looked up to and replaced as > role models over my parents. Unfortunately, some KOs will not have other > caring adults in their lives. I worry for them. > > > > > > > > But make no mistake, even with other adults in my life, I still am > susceptible to FOG, hoovering, emotional triggers, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Yenaine,I can relate to alot of what you wrote here! The teaching yourself to read: highly intelligent children are able to do that and as adults they will remember how they did it and in such cases trickery is often involved when the desire of a young child to learn is discounted by adults who just don't understand that this expression of interest in learning on the child's part is an indication of actual ability not just a caprice.You were very resourceful to use the words on the news to learn how to read...and then you grew up to become a journalist...No coincidence there,I think I remember my own nada refusing to teach me to read although I asked her to,kind of sneering at me.She did read to me,though,so I did have that help.I had a couple of books I really liked and knew by heart,so my " tricking " nada was having her read me those books and I concentrated on following what she said from the first word on the page and one day when I was two it all just made sense and I could *read* the words of those stories I knew so well. I don't know about you,but when I got to kindergarten I could already read everything the teacher was teaching us and I was so bored. What you said about finding out there were alot of different realities outside your crazy family and little town and that you just had to protect yourself until you could run away--wow--I could have said the exact same thing myself!!! I was *fascinated* with foreign countries and " the rest of the world " .I dreamed and dreamed of leaving that shitty little town,of the day when I finally could I also realized the year I was twelve that I didn't have parents and I was on my own and that I'd have to do it all by myself.The outcome of that,for me also,was a bit crazy! I literally thought that I had to completely depend on myself.That I had to figure everything out for myself.I seemed very self confident but deep down I wasn't.Deep down I felt lost and alone,but I didn't know how to reach out for help.I ended up having to learn most things the hard way,through very painful trial and much error. Yes,it's ultimately liberating when you can see what your problems are.It's a point of focus to know what you need to change.My brother was the " golden " one and it's like he was devoured whole by nada and fada and like you said he never apprehended what was hideously wrong about our upbringing when for me I had suffered so much from it that it was more obvious,but he lost all true sense of self.He resents me and despises me...I'm so sorry your sister died indirectly from getting caught in the net of your family's dysfunction.The need to disengage is clearer to the " split bad " for sure but making your own way without a map or a compass...it's still so hard to break out of the family prison,like clawing your way out! My brother,in my case,has been sitting on his hands and blaming *me* but long story subject for another topic: I think he's got some personality disorder of his own going on. Anyway thanks for sharing about your early reading,your awareness of a world bigger than the one you were in,the realization of needing to raise yourself...I lived a similar subjective reality! > > The books were my solution too. I don't remember neither one person who would help me in any way when I was living with my prmial family. > > But when I was 3 years old I learned how to read - by myself. They refused to teach me saying I'm too young for that so I tricked them :-) I watched tv news with them always asking " what is written on screen " ( for example , from Paris, or London, or.....) > > In primary school I have already read books for grown ups including books about psychology ( from university) and soon I've found out that that there are a lot of different realities outside my crazy family and little town where I lived and that I have to protect myself to survive until I can ran away. > > So I decided to raise myself - I didn't have anybody else to do it... I was about 12 - 13 years old. The outcome was a little bit crazy :-) - problems with excepting help because of my total independence and not trusting others, problems with authorities, lack of some " normal " social skills...but I'm proud that I escaped from craziness of my family and I did managed to crate my own (healthier) world. There were moments when I reacted similar like nada or fada but I managed ( with a looooot of effort to heal and change that) > > My sister wasn't that lucky. They sucked her into their craziness ( all family was crazy one way or another), she refuse to see that she had problems and refuse to confront with her past. She is dead now - indirectly because of that ( long story). > > Sometimes she said to me - You are so lucky you have enough power for changes...But this power came out from little steps I did ( confronting, trying, falling, trying again, learning, trying , falling again...) and bit by bit knowledge and power came. I was not so " powerfull " at the beginning of my journey, I was totally scared, confused when I was little......the same like her. But she was kind of conformist, she always choose the easier ways and shortcuts, she always refuse to take ( even small) steps, she just trying to find others who would do things for her and until the very and she was convinced that one day some miracle will happen and everything will be different. > > Maybe because she was a " golden " child and I was a " bed " one. I think it's much harder for the " golden " ones - it is harder to recognize that something is terribly , terribly wrong - the abuse is not so obviouse. > > Yenaine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Yenaine,I can relate to alot of what you wrote here! The teaching yourself to read: highly intelligent children are able to do that and as adults they will remember how they did it and in such cases trickery is often involved when the desire of a young child to learn is discounted by adults who just don't understand that this expression of interest in learning on the child's part is an indication of actual ability not just a caprice.You were very resourceful to use the words on the news to learn how to read...and then you grew up to become a journalist...No coincidence there,I think I remember my own nada refusing to teach me to read although I asked her to,kind of sneering at me.She did read to me,though,so I did have that help.I had a couple of books I really liked and knew by heart,so my " tricking " nada was having her read me those books and I concentrated on following what she said from the first word on the page and one day when I was two it all just made sense and I could *read* the words of those stories I knew so well. I don't know about you,but when I got to kindergarten I could already read everything the teacher was teaching us and I was so bored. What you said about finding out there were alot of different realities outside your crazy family and little town and that you just had to protect yourself until you could run away--wow--I could have said the exact same thing myself!!! I was *fascinated* with foreign countries and " the rest of the world " .I dreamed and dreamed of leaving that shitty little town,of the day when I finally could I also realized the year I was twelve that I didn't have parents and I was on my own and that I'd have to do it all by myself.The outcome of that,for me also,was a bit crazy! I literally thought that I had to completely depend on myself.That I had to figure everything out for myself.I seemed very self confident but deep down I wasn't.Deep down I felt lost and alone,but I didn't know how to reach out for help.I ended up having to learn most things the hard way,through very painful trial and much error. Yes,it's ultimately liberating when you can see what your problems are.It's a point of focus to know what you need to change.My brother was the " golden " one and it's like he was devoured whole by nada and fada and like you said he never apprehended what was hideously wrong about our upbringing when for me I had suffered so much from it that it was more obvious,but he lost all true sense of self.He resents me and despises me...I'm so sorry your sister died indirectly from getting caught in the net of your family's dysfunction.The need to disengage is clearer to the " split bad " for sure but making your own way without a map or a compass...it's still so hard to break out of the family prison,like clawing your way out! My brother,in my case,has been sitting on his hands and blaming *me* but long story subject for another topic: I think he's got some personality disorder of his own going on. Anyway thanks for sharing about your early reading,your awareness of a world bigger than the one you were in,the realization of needing to raise yourself...I lived a similar subjective reality! > > The books were my solution too. I don't remember neither one person who would help me in any way when I was living with my prmial family. > > But when I was 3 years old I learned how to read - by myself. They refused to teach me saying I'm too young for that so I tricked them :-) I watched tv news with them always asking " what is written on screen " ( for example , from Paris, or London, or.....) > > In primary school I have already read books for grown ups including books about psychology ( from university) and soon I've found out that that there are a lot of different realities outside my crazy family and little town where I lived and that I have to protect myself to survive until I can ran away. > > So I decided to raise myself - I didn't have anybody else to do it... I was about 12 - 13 years old. The outcome was a little bit crazy :-) - problems with excepting help because of my total independence and not trusting others, problems with authorities, lack of some " normal " social skills...but I'm proud that I escaped from craziness of my family and I did managed to crate my own (healthier) world. There were moments when I reacted similar like nada or fada but I managed ( with a looooot of effort to heal and change that) > > My sister wasn't that lucky. They sucked her into their craziness ( all family was crazy one way or another), she refuse to see that she had problems and refuse to confront with her past. She is dead now - indirectly because of that ( long story). > > Sometimes she said to me - You are so lucky you have enough power for changes...But this power came out from little steps I did ( confronting, trying, falling, trying again, learning, trying , falling again...) and bit by bit knowledge and power came. I was not so " powerfull " at the beginning of my journey, I was totally scared, confused when I was little......the same like her. But she was kind of conformist, she always choose the easier ways and shortcuts, she always refuse to take ( even small) steps, she just trying to find others who would do things for her and until the very and she was convinced that one day some miracle will happen and everything will be different. > > Maybe because she was a " golden " child and I was a " bed " one. I think it's much harder for the " golden " ones - it is harder to recognize that something is terribly , terribly wrong - the abuse is not so obviouse. > > Yenaine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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