Re: thoughts sparked by jared loughner situation

[Guest guest]

We're in the world where extreme-ism seems to rule instead of a balanced,

rational approach to the issue of those with mental illness.

Correct me if I'm wrong, guys, but this is my take on the history of this issue:

Up until about 30 or so years ago, the other end of this extreme was the " norm. "

A person could be declared mentally ill or incompetent way too easily. Such

persons could be virtually imprisoned against their will in a state mental

institution and denied their civil rights, like being allowed recourse to legal

representation. Exposee journalism uncovered the appalling state of

government-run mental institutions or " human warehouses " , shocking and

embarrassing the country into rethinking the laws/policies RE the mentally ill.

I think it was during the Regan presidency that he and congress decided to swing

the pendulum over to favor patients' rights. The mental institutions were

emptied; the patients regained their personal freedom and civil rights... and

became the wandering homeless. The new policies/laws made it a much more

involved and difficult procedure to have someone declared a danger to themselves

and to others, plus there was no government housing (or warehousing) for them.

We can only hope that the pendulum will settle in the middle somehow, so that

there can be an educated, reasoned, thoughtful and balanced decision-making

process regarding patients' rights vs the family's right to safety/society's

rights to public safety when a family member is showing signs of dangerous,

violent or self-harming mentally ill behaviors.

-Annie

>

> I've been closely following the terrible shooting and the details about

Loughner. I read an article about how hard it is for parents to get their

children teenager or an adult mental health help or committed if needed here:

>

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-01-14/jared-loughners-mental\

-illness-why-wasnt-he-committed/

>

> And it makes me think, if it's *that* hard for the parent who has the legal

authority to make a clearly mentally ill / dangerous child get help...then what

hope did we KO's ever have? First off we were the children, so if anyone were

to have forced our BPD parents to get help it would have been their parents or

related family. See article...they don't have much chance. Add to that that

so many BPD's are able to function normally to outsiders and there is so little

proof it brings the odds down to zero that any intervention can happen.

>

> In the last paragraph on the second page of the article they detail a case

where it's an elderly parent who has gone dangerously batshit crazy and the

judge *will not* help the terrified family and just tells them to get a

restraining order. What kind of crazy world is this?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

We're in the world where extreme-ism seems to rule instead of a balanced,

rational approach to the issue of those with mental illness.

Correct me if I'm wrong, guys, but this is my take on the history of this issue:

Up until about 30 or so years ago, the other end of this extreme was the " norm. "

A person could be declared mentally ill or incompetent way too easily. Such

persons could be virtually imprisoned against their will in a state mental

institution and denied their civil rights, like being allowed recourse to legal

representation. Exposee journalism uncovered the appalling state of

government-run mental institutions or " human warehouses " , shocking and

embarrassing the country into rethinking the laws/policies RE the mentally ill.

I think it was during the Regan presidency that he and congress decided to swing

the pendulum over to favor patients' rights. The mental institutions were

emptied; the patients regained their personal freedom and civil rights... and

became the wandering homeless. The new policies/laws made it a much more

involved and difficult procedure to have someone declared a danger to themselves

and to others, plus there was no government housing (or warehousing) for them.

We can only hope that the pendulum will settle in the middle somehow, so that

there can be an educated, reasoned, thoughtful and balanced decision-making

process regarding patients' rights vs the family's right to safety/society's

rights to public safety when a family member is showing signs of dangerous,

violent or self-harming mentally ill behaviors.

-Annie

>

> I've been closely following the terrible shooting and the details about

Loughner. I read an article about how hard it is for parents to get their

children teenager or an adult mental health help or committed if needed here:

>

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-01-14/jared-loughners-mental\

-illness-why-wasnt-he-committed/

>

> And it makes me think, if it's *that* hard for the parent who has the legal

authority to make a clearly mentally ill / dangerous child get help...then what

hope did we KO's ever have? First off we were the children, so if anyone were

to have forced our BPD parents to get help it would have been their parents or

related family. See article...they don't have much chance. Add to that that

so many BPD's are able to function normally to outsiders and there is so little

proof it brings the odds down to zero that any intervention can happen.

>

> In the last paragraph on the second page of the article they detail a case

where it's an elderly parent who has gone dangerously batshit crazy and the

judge *will not* help the terrified family and just tells them to get a

restraining order. What kind of crazy world is this?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

We're in the world where extreme-ism seems to rule instead of a balanced,

rational approach to the issue of those with mental illness.

Correct me if I'm wrong, guys, but this is my take on the history of this issue:

Up until about 30 or so years ago, the other end of this extreme was the " norm. "

A person could be declared mentally ill or incompetent way too easily. Such

persons could be virtually imprisoned against their will in a state mental

institution and denied their civil rights, like being allowed recourse to legal

representation. Exposee journalism uncovered the appalling state of

government-run mental institutions or " human warehouses " , shocking and

embarrassing the country into rethinking the laws/policies RE the mentally ill.

I think it was during the Regan presidency that he and congress decided to swing

the pendulum over to favor patients' rights. The mental institutions were

emptied; the patients regained their personal freedom and civil rights... and

became the wandering homeless. The new policies/laws made it a much more

involved and difficult procedure to have someone declared a danger to themselves

and to others, plus there was no government housing (or warehousing) for them.

We can only hope that the pendulum will settle in the middle somehow, so that

there can be an educated, reasoned, thoughtful and balanced decision-making

process regarding patients' rights vs the family's right to safety/society's

rights to public safety when a family member is showing signs of dangerous,

violent or self-harming mentally ill behaviors.

-Annie

>

> I've been closely following the terrible shooting and the details about

Loughner. I read an article about how hard it is for parents to get their

children teenager or an adult mental health help or committed if needed here:

>

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-01-14/jared-loughners-mental\

-illness-why-wasnt-he-committed/

>

> And it makes me think, if it's *that* hard for the parent who has the legal

authority to make a clearly mentally ill / dangerous child get help...then what

hope did we KO's ever have? First off we were the children, so if anyone were

to have forced our BPD parents to get help it would have been their parents or

related family. See article...they don't have much chance. Add to that that

so many BPD's are able to function normally to outsiders and there is so little

proof it brings the odds down to zero that any intervention can happen.

>

> In the last paragraph on the second page of the article they detail a case

where it's an elderly parent who has gone dangerously batshit crazy and the

judge *will not* help the terrified family and just tells them to get a

restraining order. What kind of crazy world is this?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Annie & ...you are so both right.

I know a very close friend who does those specific evaluations. It's a very

involved process. At least here in Virginia, if you can substantiate that the

person is a danger to themselves or others (by quoting threats made or current

attempts) or that they cannot protect themselves from harm or provide for their

basic needs (either so psychotic or so decompensated they aren't taking care of

basic self care), they can receive an emergency evaluation and that can lead to

involuntary hospitalization if the person refuses. She used to see anywhere

between 20-40 people a week on these types of evaluations. Most she says are

warranted, a small percentage are bogus family disputes where the family is

hoping for a lecture from the evaluator or is seeking retribution against the

person.

So, if there's some degree of proof either with statements or they have harmed

themselves, that gives you a right to request an eval.

The country did see a lot of cases come forth, because people were hospitalizing

people for the wrong reasons, maybe BP's hospitalizing kids for revenge.

Anyhoo, they swung exactly as Annie said toward patient rights and

deinstitutionalization. We, in Virginia, still have a few state hospitals

sprinkled throughout the state for severe cases. People generally go to a

private hospital first though. From what I have heard, quite a few states are

set up this way.

With all that said, it doesn't change that most people do not know what to do

when they have a in their family and/or they could be scared. It is very

sad. I think also sometimes fanaticism flies under the radar sometimes. People

sometimes applaud it and encourage it. Sometimes the " it " isn't just a belief

or a belief system that someone won't act on, sometimes it is legitimate mental

illness and if that's the case anything can happen. We just have to be careful.

The Tucson tradegy saddens me. I am glad that a spirited examination of mental

health laws is coming out of this tragedy. It has been long needed. I heard a

advocate on the radio say yesterday that our governors and state legislatures

need to be on the hook for adjusting these laws, because it is their

responsibility. In Virginia, our laws were changed ever so slightly after the

Virginia Tech tragedy.

Why does it take tragedy for change in our society?

[Guest guest]

Annie & ...you are so both right.

I know a very close friend who does those specific evaluations. It's a very

involved process. At least here in Virginia, if you can substantiate that the

person is a danger to themselves or others (by quoting threats made or current

attempts) or that they cannot protect themselves from harm or provide for their

basic needs (either so psychotic or so decompensated they aren't taking care of

basic self care), they can receive an emergency evaluation and that can lead to

involuntary hospitalization if the person refuses. She used to see anywhere

between 20-40 people a week on these types of evaluations. Most she says are

warranted, a small percentage are bogus family disputes where the family is

hoping for a lecture from the evaluator or is seeking retribution against the

person.

So, if there's some degree of proof either with statements or they have harmed

themselves, that gives you a right to request an eval.

The country did see a lot of cases come forth, because people were hospitalizing

people for the wrong reasons, maybe BP's hospitalizing kids for revenge.

Anyhoo, they swung exactly as Annie said toward patient rights and

deinstitutionalization. We, in Virginia, still have a few state hospitals

sprinkled throughout the state for severe cases. People generally go to a

private hospital first though. From what I have heard, quite a few states are

set up this way.

With all that said, it doesn't change that most people do not know what to do

when they have a in their family and/or they could be scared. It is very

sad. I think also sometimes fanaticism flies under the radar sometimes. People

sometimes applaud it and encourage it. Sometimes the " it " isn't just a belief

or a belief system that someone won't act on, sometimes it is legitimate mental

illness and if that's the case anything can happen. We just have to be careful.

The Tucson tradegy saddens me. I am glad that a spirited examination of mental

health laws is coming out of this tragedy. It has been long needed. I heard a

advocate on the radio say yesterday that our governors and state legislatures

need to be on the hook for adjusting these laws, because it is their

responsibility. In Virginia, our laws were changed ever so slightly after the

Virginia Tech tragedy.

Why does it take tragedy for change in our society?

[Guest guest]

Amen Annie. It seems so often that pendulum swings so slowly & remains at

either end of the extreme far too long. It's time for it to stop & settle

in the middle.

Mia

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Amen Annie. It seems so often that pendulum swings so slowly & remains at

either end of the extreme far too long. It's time for it to stop & settle

in the middle.

Mia

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Amen Annie. It seems so often that pendulum swings so slowly & remains at

either end of the extreme far too long. It's time for it to stop & settle

in the middle.

Mia

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah, i've been following that case too. What is it about criminal mental

illness that makes me unable to look away? I guess in a word - its nada.

>

>

> Amen Annie. It seems so often that pendulum swings so slowly & remains at

> either end of the extreme far too long. It's time for it to stop & settle

> in the middle.

>

> Mia

>

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Adding another amen Annie. There's got to be some rational middle ground

somewhere. I surely don't want to go back to the days where philandering

husbands could get their wives committed and keep their family money. I've read

this was a fairly common scenario. But yet there are extreme circumstances of

mental illness that sometimes DO require intervention...and who intervenes, how?

Girlscout, that may be what's going on with me too I'm always fascinated by

these criminally insane people too. I want to know how did they get that way?

Could it have been stopped? Is it all in the genes? Etc....guess I'm looking

for that nugget of insight that'll help my nada make sense to me.

>

> >

[Guest guest]

Adding another amen Annie. There's got to be some rational middle ground

somewhere. I surely don't want to go back to the days where philandering

husbands could get their wives committed and keep their family money. I've read

this was a fairly common scenario. But yet there are extreme circumstances of

mental illness that sometimes DO require intervention...and who intervenes, how?

Girlscout, that may be what's going on with me too I'm always fascinated by

these criminally insane people too. I want to know how did they get that way?

Could it have been stopped? Is it all in the genes? Etc....guess I'm looking

for that nugget of insight that'll help my nada make sense to me.

>

> >

[Guest guest]

Latasha, that's very interesting about your friend's work in Virginia. It

sounds like you guys have a system in place at least. And that your friend is a

good evaluator - if someone wasn't it would be awful if a person could lose

their freedom because of relatives with an agenda. I wish it didn't take

tragedy to force discussion and change too.

>

> Annie & ...you are so both right.

>

> I know a very close friend who does those specific evaluations. It's a very

involved process. At least here in Virginia, if you can substantiate that the

person is a danger to themselves or others (by quoting threats made or current

attempts) or that they cannot protect themselves from harm or provide for their

basic needs (either so psychotic or so decompensated they aren't taking care of

basic self care), they can receive an emergency evaluation and that can lead to

involuntary hospitalization if the person refuses. She used to see anywhere

between 20-40 people a week on these types of evaluations. Most she says are

warranted, a small percentage are bogus family disputes where the family is

hoping for a lecture from the evaluator or is seeking retribution against the

person.

>

> So, if there's some degree of proof either with statements or they have harmed

themselves, that gives you a right to request an eval.

>

> The country did see a lot of cases come forth, because people were

hospitalizing people for the wrong reasons, maybe BP's hospitalizing kids for

revenge. Anyhoo, they swung exactly as Annie said toward patient rights and

deinstitutionalization. We, in Virginia, still have a few state hospitals

sprinkled throughout the state for severe cases. People generally go to a

private hospital first though. From what I have heard, quite a few states are

set up this way.

>

> With all that said, it doesn't change that most people do not know what to do

when they have a in their family and/or they could be scared. It is very

sad. I think also sometimes fanaticism flies under the radar sometimes. People

sometimes applaud it and encourage it. Sometimes the " it " isn't just a belief

or a belief system that someone won't act on, sometimes it is legitimate mental

illness and if that's the case anything can happen. We just have to be careful.

>

> The Tucson tradegy saddens me. I am glad that a spirited examination of

mental health laws is coming out of this tragedy. It has been long needed. I

heard a advocate on the radio say yesterday that our governors and state

legislatures need to be on the hook for adjusting these laws, because it is

their responsibility. In Virginia, our laws were changed ever so slightly after

the Virginia Tech tragedy.

>

> Why does it take tragedy for change in our society?

>

[Guest guest]

Latasha, that's very interesting about your friend's work in Virginia. It

sounds like you guys have a system in place at least. And that your friend is a

good evaluator - if someone wasn't it would be awful if a person could lose

their freedom because of relatives with an agenda. I wish it didn't take

tragedy to force discussion and change too.

>

> Annie & ...you are so both right.

>

> I know a very close friend who does those specific evaluations. It's a very

involved process. At least here in Virginia, if you can substantiate that the

person is a danger to themselves or others (by quoting threats made or current

attempts) or that they cannot protect themselves from harm or provide for their

basic needs (either so psychotic or so decompensated they aren't taking care of

basic self care), they can receive an emergency evaluation and that can lead to

involuntary hospitalization if the person refuses. She used to see anywhere

between 20-40 people a week on these types of evaluations. Most she says are

warranted, a small percentage are bogus family disputes where the family is

hoping for a lecture from the evaluator or is seeking retribution against the

person.

>

> So, if there's some degree of proof either with statements or they have harmed

themselves, that gives you a right to request an eval.

>

> The country did see a lot of cases come forth, because people were

hospitalizing people for the wrong reasons, maybe BP's hospitalizing kids for

revenge. Anyhoo, they swung exactly as Annie said toward patient rights and

deinstitutionalization. We, in Virginia, still have a few state hospitals

sprinkled throughout the state for severe cases. People generally go to a

private hospital first though. From what I have heard, quite a few states are

set up this way.

>

> With all that said, it doesn't change that most people do not know what to do

when they have a in their family and/or they could be scared. It is very

sad. I think also sometimes fanaticism flies under the radar sometimes. People

sometimes applaud it and encourage it. Sometimes the " it " isn't just a belief

or a belief system that someone won't act on, sometimes it is legitimate mental

illness and if that's the case anything can happen. We just have to be careful.

>

> The Tucson tradegy saddens me. I am glad that a spirited examination of

mental health laws is coming out of this tragedy. It has been long needed. I

heard a advocate on the radio say yesterday that our governors and state

legislatures need to be on the hook for adjusting these laws, because it is

their responsibility. In Virginia, our laws were changed ever so slightly after

the Virginia Tech tragedy.

>

> Why does it take tragedy for change in our society?

>

[Guest guest]

I find myself fascinated by these nut jobs like also from a psychological

standpoint. I agree. It must be because of nada. If she were abusing me and

torturing me today though I would have been taken away from her I believe and my

4th grade teacher who YEARS later asked me if had been abused by nada because

she suspected as much, would have lost her teaching position for not reporting

nada to authorities, but back then you could do anything short of murder to your

child and no one said a thing.

[Guest guest]

I find myself fascinated by these nut jobs like also from a psychological

standpoint. I agree. It must be because of nada. If she were abusing me and

torturing me today though I would have been taken away from her I believe and my

4th grade teacher who YEARS later asked me if had been abused by nada because

she suspected as much, would have lost her teaching position for not reporting

nada to authorities, but back then you could do anything short of murder to your

child and no one said a thing.

[Guest guest]

I find myself fascinated by these nut jobs like also from a psychological

standpoint. I agree. It must be because of nada. If she were abusing me and

torturing me today though I would have been taken away from her I believe and my

4th grade teacher who YEARS later asked me if had been abused by nada because

she suspected as much, would have lost her teaching position for not reporting

nada to authorities, but back then you could do anything short of murder to your

child and no one said a thing.

[Guest guest]

my mother just died.  take me off this list!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>

>

> Amen Annie. It seems so often that pendulum swings so slowly & remains at

> either end of the extreme far too long. It's time for it to stop & settle

> in the middle.

>

> Mia

>

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

my mother just died.  take me off this list!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>

>

> Amen Annie. It seems so often that pendulum swings so slowly & remains at

> either end of the extreme far too long. It's time for it to stop & settle

> in the middle.

>

> Mia

>

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Even when we have a parent who is mentally ill and abusive, and even if we are

estranged from them, losing a parent can be a big shock. I send you my

heartfelt condolences, and wishes for your healing and inner peace.

You can un-join the Group easily and immediately at the Yahoo! Group site

online: Select " Edit Membership " , and at the bottom of the right-hand corner of

the page, select " Leave Group. "

-Annie

>

> >

> >

> > Amen Annie. It seems so often that pendulum swings so slowly & remains at

> > either end of the extreme far too long. It's time for it to stop & settle

> > in the middle.

> >

> > Mia

> >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Even when we have a parent who is mentally ill and abusive, and even if we are

estranged from them, losing a parent can be a big shock. I send you my

heartfelt condolences, and wishes for your healing and inner peace.

You can un-join the Group easily and immediately at the Yahoo! Group site

online: Select " Edit Membership " , and at the bottom of the right-hand corner of

the page, select " Leave Group. "

-Annie

>

> >

> >

> > Amen Annie. It seems so often that pendulum swings so slowly & remains at

> > either end of the extreme far too long. It's time for it to stop & settle

> > in the middle.

> >

> > Mia

> >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Even when we have a parent who is mentally ill and abusive, and even if we are

estranged from them, losing a parent can be a big shock. I send you my

heartfelt condolences, and wishes for your healing and inner peace.

You can un-join the Group easily and immediately at the Yahoo! Group site

online: Select " Edit Membership " , and at the bottom of the right-hand corner of

the page, select " Leave Group. "

-Annie

>

> >

> >

> > Amen Annie. It seems so often that pendulum swings so slowly & remains at

> > either end of the extreme far too long. It's time for it to stop & settle

> > in the middle.

> >

> > Mia

> >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

The only thing that occurs to me is that we human beings are SO genetically

hardwired and culturally, historically pressured to be attached and loyal to our

parents... that its like part of our autonomic nervous system, like breathing.

And that's fine, EXCEPT when the parent(s) happens to be mentally ill and

abusive. Society/culture can't absorb and accept the concept that there are

parents who are actively malicious and destructive to their own children; its so

disturbing that they " don't want to hear it. "

From what I've read, Loughner may have fried his brain on psychoactive

substances like LSD and hallucinogenic mushrooms, but I've also heard

discussions on the radio that made it sound like his parents were like hermits

and never went outside or let go outside or have a normal social life,

either.

I will read with interest what other information about his background and

parents turns up.

-Annie

>

> The thing that amazed me is how quickly the news programs have psychologists

evaluate any clues about the perpetrator, and how quickly the psychologists say

" he demonstrates szichophrenic " " paranoid " " delusional " etc behavior, thoughts,

etc. After someone does something horrific like this, everyone jumps in with a

label, it seems.

> For those of us who deal and have dealt with the mentally ill on a daily

basis, we get articles like the one on Psychology today (that was discussed here

recently) asking us to have more compassion.

> What is wrong with this world?

>

[Guest guest]

The only thing that occurs to me is that we human beings are SO genetically

hardwired and culturally, historically pressured to be attached and loyal to our

parents... that its like part of our autonomic nervous system, like breathing.

And that's fine, EXCEPT when the parent(s) happens to be mentally ill and

abusive. Society/culture can't absorb and accept the concept that there are

parents who are actively malicious and destructive to their own children; its so

disturbing that they " don't want to hear it. "

From what I've read, Loughner may have fried his brain on psychoactive

substances like LSD and hallucinogenic mushrooms, but I've also heard

discussions on the radio that made it sound like his parents were like hermits

and never went outside or let go outside or have a normal social life,

either.

I will read with interest what other information about his background and

parents turns up.

-Annie

>

> The thing that amazed me is how quickly the news programs have psychologists

evaluate any clues about the perpetrator, and how quickly the psychologists say

" he demonstrates szichophrenic " " paranoid " " delusional " etc behavior, thoughts,

etc. After someone does something horrific like this, everyone jumps in with a

label, it seems.

> For those of us who deal and have dealt with the mentally ill on a daily

basis, we get articles like the one on Psychology today (that was discussed here

recently) asking us to have more compassion.

> What is wrong with this world?

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with you; I think education about what mentally ill behaviors look like

and sound like, vs what mentally healthy behaviors look like and sound like,

would go a long way toward preventing abuse and damage and crimes like this one.

-Annie

> >

> > The thing that amazed me is how quickly the news programs have psychologists

evaluate any clues about the perpetrator, and how quickly the psychologists say

" he demonstrates szichophrenic " " paranoid " " delusional " etc behavior, thoughts,

etc. After someone does something horrific like this, everyone jumps in with a

label, it seems.

> > For those of us who deal and have dealt with the mentally ill on a daily

basis, we get articles like the one on Psychology today (that was discussed here

recently) asking us to have more compassion.

> > What is wrong with this world?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with you; I think education about what mentally ill behaviors look like

and sound like, vs what mentally healthy behaviors look like and sound like,

would go a long way toward preventing abuse and damage and crimes like this one.

-Annie

> >

> > The thing that amazed me is how quickly the news programs have psychologists

evaluate any clues about the perpetrator, and how quickly the psychologists say

" he demonstrates szichophrenic " " paranoid " " delusional " etc behavior, thoughts,

etc. After someone does something horrific like this, everyone jumps in with a

label, it seems.

> > For those of us who deal and have dealt with the mentally ill on a daily

basis, we get articles like the one on Psychology today (that was discussed here

recently) asking us to have more compassion.

> > What is wrong with this world?

> >

>