Re: Another thread bites the dust...

[Guest guest]

Anuria wrote: discussed here (the book promotes the superiority of a rigid,

authoritarian,

perfectionism-based parenting style, which unfortunately is NOT exclusive to one

culture/race) offering her opinion that this parenting style is actually abusive

and promotes many pd behaviors as " good parenting. "

I am intrigued by the BPD behaviors that show up in cultures. I remember

watching a late night talk show where a Jewish comedian says he is married to an

Italian American and the arrangement was great He was teaching her guilt and she

was teaching him shame. Or was it the other way around? My aunt who was raised

in a small village in Italy was discussing the Italian-American community in my

city and we were talking about all the hurt that people through at you in the

guise of being concerned relatives and she spat out the words. Your home town is

just another ______________________. Insert unpronounceable name of her village

in Italy. As a culture we have such a long way to go. I thought I saw something

that Randi had written about working towards getting Congress to put more money

towards researching BPD. This is a cause I want to know more about and get

involved with, I think. Can anyone give me more info?

Kay

[Guest guest]

Anuria wrote: discussed here (the book promotes the superiority of a rigid,

authoritarian,

perfectionism-based parenting style, which unfortunately is NOT exclusive to one

culture/race) offering her opinion that this parenting style is actually abusive

and promotes many pd behaviors as " good parenting. "

I am intrigued by the BPD behaviors that show up in cultures. I remember

watching a late night talk show where a Jewish comedian says he is married to an

Italian American and the arrangement was great He was teaching her guilt and she

was teaching him shame. Or was it the other way around? My aunt who was raised

in a small village in Italy was discussing the Italian-American community in my

city and we were talking about all the hurt that people through at you in the

guise of being concerned relatives and she spat out the words. Your home town is

just another ______________________. Insert unpronounceable name of her village

in Italy. As a culture we have such a long way to go. I thought I saw something

that Randi had written about working towards getting Congress to put more money

towards researching BPD. This is a cause I want to know more about and get

involved with, I think. Can anyone give me more info?

Kay

[Guest guest]

Anuria wrote: discussed here (the book promotes the superiority of a rigid,

authoritarian,

perfectionism-based parenting style, which unfortunately is NOT exclusive to one

culture/race) offering her opinion that this parenting style is actually abusive

and promotes many pd behaviors as " good parenting. "

I am intrigued by the BPD behaviors that show up in cultures. I remember

watching a late night talk show where a Jewish comedian says he is married to an

Italian American and the arrangement was great He was teaching her guilt and she

was teaching him shame. Or was it the other way around? My aunt who was raised

in a small village in Italy was discussing the Italian-American community in my

city and we were talking about all the hurt that people through at you in the

guise of being concerned relatives and she spat out the words. Your home town is

just another ______________________. Insert unpronounceable name of her village

in Italy. As a culture we have such a long way to go. I thought I saw something

that Randi had written about working towards getting Congress to put more money

towards researching BPD. This is a cause I want to know more about and get

involved with, I think. Can anyone give me more info?

Kay

[Guest guest]

Yes! I second that--I am very appreciative that Randi has provided a place where

we as KOs can freely express the full range of our emotions about our BPD

parents.

It really does sound as if the mods at that other site have latched onto

" forgiveness " as a positive solution and just will not and cannot deal with any

thoughts that might complicate this notion.I'm not familiar with that site but

the censorship you're describing is imo kinda bizarre.

I agree with that poster who was concerned that some people might use

" The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother " as justification for their abuse.

Here's a brief excerpt from an article I read about the book.Maybe it's

just me but Chua's daughters sound like KO's--check out what the

younger,rebellious daughter Lulu says:

" In a coda to her book, Chua loosens up, describing how she gave her

daughters the manuscript and welcomed them as collaborators. The wise girls are

wary about getting roped in. " I'm sure it's all about you anyway, " Lulu says. As

they hunker down to criticize, and make her revise, revise, revise, Sophia, now

17, issues a warning well worth keeping in mind if, or when, the mommy wars

erupt over Chua's provocative portrait. " It's not possible for you to tell the

complete truth, " Sophia tells her mother. " You've left out so many facts. But

that means no one can really understand. " Let's not forget that it's only how

the girls themselves understand their mother's methods that really counts in the

end. "

from: http://www.slate.com/id/2280712/pagenum/2

[Guest guest]

Yes! I second that--I am very appreciative that Randi has provided a place where

we as KOs can freely express the full range of our emotions about our BPD

parents.

It really does sound as if the mods at that other site have latched onto

" forgiveness " as a positive solution and just will not and cannot deal with any

thoughts that might complicate this notion.I'm not familiar with that site but

the censorship you're describing is imo kinda bizarre.

I agree with that poster who was concerned that some people might use

" The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother " as justification for their abuse.

Here's a brief excerpt from an article I read about the book.Maybe it's

just me but Chua's daughters sound like KO's--check out what the

younger,rebellious daughter Lulu says:

" In a coda to her book, Chua loosens up, describing how she gave her

daughters the manuscript and welcomed them as collaborators. The wise girls are

wary about getting roped in. " I'm sure it's all about you anyway, " Lulu says. As

they hunker down to criticize, and make her revise, revise, revise, Sophia, now

17, issues a warning well worth keeping in mind if, or when, the mommy wars

erupt over Chua's provocative portrait. " It's not possible for you to tell the

complete truth, " Sophia tells her mother. " You've left out so many facts. But

that means no one can really understand. " Let's not forget that it's only how

the girls themselves understand their mother's methods that really counts in the

end. "

from: http://www.slate.com/id/2280712/pagenum/2

[Guest guest]

Yes! I second that--I am very appreciative that Randi has provided a place where

we as KOs can freely express the full range of our emotions about our BPD

parents.

It really does sound as if the mods at that other site have latched onto

" forgiveness " as a positive solution and just will not and cannot deal with any

thoughts that might complicate this notion.I'm not familiar with that site but

the censorship you're describing is imo kinda bizarre.

I agree with that poster who was concerned that some people might use

" The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother " as justification for their abuse.

Here's a brief excerpt from an article I read about the book.Maybe it's

just me but Chua's daughters sound like KO's--check out what the

younger,rebellious daughter Lulu says:

" In a coda to her book, Chua loosens up, describing how she gave her

daughters the manuscript and welcomed them as collaborators. The wise girls are

wary about getting roped in. " I'm sure it's all about you anyway, " Lulu says. As

they hunker down to criticize, and make her revise, revise, revise, Sophia, now

17, issues a warning well worth keeping in mind if, or when, the mommy wars

erupt over Chua's provocative portrait. " It's not possible for you to tell the

complete truth, " Sophia tells her mother. " You've left out so many facts. But

that means no one can really understand. " Let's not forget that it's only how

the girls themselves understand their mother's methods that really counts in the

end. "

from: http://www.slate.com/id/2280712/pagenum/2

[Guest guest]

I think your theory is probably correct: the mods at bpdfamily.com have their

own agenda (forgiveness=only righteous/healthy stance) and censor any posts that

go counter to it. I hope the members who have been reprimanded or muzzled will

find their way here, as I did.

RE the " Tiger Mother " book, thanks for the link! I went there and read the

article and was going to post a reply until I saw that there are over 400

comments already! I read through some of them, and I'm estimating that about

60% consider that style of parenting to be abusive and 40% think its awesome

and/or intend to utilize it with their own kids.

If that's the case, I predict that there will be a 40% increase in the number of

KOs out there who are going to need this support group in about 15 years.

-Annie

>

> Yes! I second that--I am very appreciative that Randi has provided a place

where we as KOs can freely express the full range of our emotions about our BPD

parents.

>

> It really does sound as if the mods at that other site have latched

onto " forgiveness " as a positive solution and just will not and cannot deal with

any thoughts that might complicate this notion.I'm not familiar with that site

but the censorship you're describing is imo kinda bizarre.

>

> I agree with that poster who was concerned that some people might use

" The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother " as justification for their abuse.

>

> Here's a brief excerpt from an article I read about the book.Maybe

it's just me but Chua's daughters sound like KO's--check out what the

younger,rebellious daughter Lulu says:

>

> " In a coda to her book, Chua loosens up, describing how she gave her

daughters the manuscript and welcomed them as collaborators. The wise girls are

wary about getting roped in. " I'm sure it's all about you anyway, " Lulu says. As

they hunker down to criticize, and make her revise, revise, revise, Sophia, now

17, issues a warning well worth keeping in mind if, or when, the mommy wars

erupt over Chua's provocative portrait. " It's not possible for you to tell the

complete truth, " Sophia tells her mother. " You've left out so many facts. But

that means no one can really understand. " Let's not forget that it's only how

the girls themselves understand their mother's methods that really counts in the

end. "

>

> from: http://www.slate.com/id/2280712/pagenum/2

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Such a good point, Annie.

Being able to express myself freely here and to read about others' experiences,

without censure, has been an incredible source of support.

I second Annie's thanks to Randi!!

>

> I admit I am (perhaps) morbidly fascinated that at bpdfamily.com, another

support group for those who have a person with bpd in their lives, yet another

thread has been " locked " in the section for those with parents, relatives or

in-laws with bpd... which means it will probably disappear along with the

" Compassion " thread, a thread discussing the disappearance of the " Compassion "

thread, and other posts/threads deemed too controversial.

>

> The mods there were (apparently) not happy that a member started a thread

about the newly-released book " Battle Hymn of the Chinese Mother " which we have

discussed here (the book promotes the superiority of a rigid, authoritarian,

perfectionism-based parenting style, which unfortunately is NOT exclusive to one

culture/race) offering her opinion that this parenting style is actually abusive

and promotes many pd behaviors as " good parenting. " The poster was afraid that

newly-fledged rigid, authoritarian, abusive, mentally ill parents would snatch

up the book and use it as a bible, a guideline and as justification/validation

for inflicting that kind of extreme parenting on their kids. The poster pointed

out that the author's own daughters, now grown, have vilified their mother's

abusive parenting style; big thumb's down from the victims. Good for them!

>

> I myself was subjected to unrealistic, perfectionistic standards of

achievement that I was not able to meet, and grew up feeling like a failure,

unworthy to occupy space, and a great disappointment to my parents who

nevertheless fed me and clothed me even though I didn't deserve it. So I know

personally what kind of damage that does (can you say " trauma-bonding " ?) and

guess what? Perfectionistic, rigid, rule-obsessed, tyrannical, manipulative,

punitive, superiority-worshipping behaviors ARE almost literally the diagnostic

criteria for obsessive-compulsive personality disorder and narcissistic pd.

>

> I'm truly very puzzled as to what the agenda is at bpdfamily.com! Its so...

NOT supportive to the survivors of childhood abuse by bpd parents, the very

people they're purporting to serve.

>

> I do NOT get it, honestly!!

>

> I am so thankful that Randi allows us to express our feelings and opinions

freely here. Perhaps we are more free to do so because this group is really not

for those with bpd. I can see how reading posts in which KOs freely express the

hurt, detail the abuses, vent the anger and righteous indignation we carry over

being victimized by our own parents and never rescued... would be very

triggering to someone with bpd.

>

> So thanks, Randi. You've provided what seems to be the only place on the 'net

that is truly for the survivors of childhood abuse by bpd parents, and for those

adult KOs still struggling to decide whether or not to continue having their bpd

parent in their lives... with no judgments and no hidden agenda.

>

> We appreciate it.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Yep, add a third to that list of thanks to Randi! I can't agree more with

what you guys have said about the freedom we have here to vent and it truly

does help us heal, IMO.

So yep, another thanks to Randi & to everyone here who makes this list the

phenomenal place that it is.

Mia

[Guest guest]

Yep, add a third to that list of thanks to Randi! I can't agree more with

what you guys have said about the freedom we have here to vent and it truly

does help us heal, IMO.

So yep, another thanks to Randi & to everyone here who makes this list the

phenomenal place that it is.

Mia

[Guest guest]

Yep, add a third to that list of thanks to Randi! I can't agree more with

what you guys have said about the freedom we have here to vent and it truly

does help us heal, IMO.

So yep, another thanks to Randi & to everyone here who makes this list the

phenomenal place that it is.

Mia

[Guest guest]

Being reprimanded or muzzled is not conducive to healing!!!! I also don't see

how anyone could work their way towards *true* forgiveness without first

processing through *all* of their feelings.It seems to me that arriving at a

" forgiveness " whereby you have denied your own emotional honesty amounts more to

stuffing it than truly forgiving.The mods at that other site are putting the

cart before the horse,in my opinion.

And besides,forgiveness isn't the only possible positive solution.I don't

" forgive " my nada for what she did to me because what she did to me is evil and

in my view of it it's up to *her* to seek forgiveness from the Universe because

it's out of my hands at this point.And in fact it was always out of my

hands--and if she is incapable of seeking that forgiveness it's not my

responsibility to do it for her.I want to *understand* why she behaved as she

did as that knowledge empowers me and for me it's being empowered with

understanding that is healing.I don't see that as the same as " forgiving " her.It

sounds like the folks at that other site are also trying to understand and

censoring their attempts at understanding is only going to retard their healing.

I mean,you can say: This person is mentally ill and that's all you need

to " understand " .Therefore,you can either protect yourself from their behavior or

you can forgive it.

But I'm not sure that for those of us who were actually raised by a

mentally ill parent if it's ever going to be so cut and dried on a purely

*emotional* level.Because as you yourself have pointed out,we are biologically

hard wired to bond with our parents,especially our mothers.Setting protective

boundaries has got to be more beneficial to *our own* mental health as a way of

understanding than " forgiving " our nadas/fadas their trespasses and

" understanding " them in that way.I think that no matter what there is going to

be grief and a grieving to go through because it's about the *parent*--and that

grief can definitely take the form of wanting to do the right thing whether that

right thing is getting our elderly parent situated in a nursing home although we

choose to maintain NC or LC--or--where that right thing is tending to ourselves

and our families so that the cycle of dysfunction is broken.The first example is

honoring our parents' essential humanity and the second example is honoring our

own essential humanity--which to me is a higher form of forgiveness than simply

" forgiving " our parents' disease.People who ask us to forgive the person because

of their disease seem to believe that in doing so we would be respecting that

person's basic humanity as if that alone is " enough " --I think personally that we

respect a person's basic humanity more when we acknowledge that the disease

itself has such a hold over them that we must react accordingly,not by

" forgiving " it,but by taking that person *as they are* by establishing

boundaries.A " forgiveness " that enables the expression of their disease does

nothing to promote access to the Higher Self,not for them and not for us.

" I forgive her/him because they just can't help it " has little to do with

transcending the tragedy that is mental illness,if we frame forgiveness itself

as an act of transcendence.That is actually pity,not forgiveness.Pitying the

poor soul does not truly respect or honor their essential humanity.Pity doesn't

lead to transcendence,nor is it the kind of love required for true

forgiveness.Loving someone enough to be *angry* about their behavior is an

acknowledgment that somewhere--somewhere--within this person there is a Higher

Self and our anger is a way of wanting that person to act more in accordance

with their Higher Self and it is also,I think,an expression of faith or a belief

in the existence of that person's Higher Self.We are angry in the first place

because this person has refused for whatever reasons to relate to us via their

loving,Higher Self and by being angry with them,we are actually recognizing

their humanity and their *potential*.A pitying " forgiveness " of their

condition,on the other hand,only says: I give up on your essential humanity,I

give up on the potential you have that is inherent in that very humanity.

If setting boundaries with our mentally ill parents is the only

recourse we have to transcending the tragedy of *their* inability to access

their better or higher selves,then that is a refusal to give up on the very idea

of transcendence: we will,by setting boundaries based on our parents *as they

are* and on their behavior *as it is*,transcend the tragedy as best we can which

is a way of honoring both their ability to do better as well as our own ability

to do better by guiding both parties away from the dysfunction or at the very

least by not simply enabling it.The rejection of dysfunction is an act of

respect for the humanity of both parties that,I think,goes much deeper and is

much more dynamic and life affirming than the pointless and static pity of

" forgiveness " .

In Marie Cardinal's memoir about her relationship with her viciously

abusive mother, " The Words To Say It " ,she writes about how the psychologist she

found to work with helped her to finally find the very words to express and

release her pain--by telling her, " Everything you feel is important " ,a simple

encouragement to explore with him the whole gamut of her emotions that turned

out to be the key to her healing.Without that,she wouldn't have gotten to the

moment one glorious,golden Spring day where she left his office *knowing* that

she had survived her mother's campaign to destroy her.Her therapy hadn't been

based on finding " forgiveness " in her heart but upon embracing the totality of

her heart-light dark and gradations of shadow--so that she could find her way

through the tangled thickets of her trauma.Unless we are empowered to pass

through the fullness of our being in this way,we can't have what I call a " Marie

Cardinal moment " : stepping out into the light of our own morning.We have a right

to--and even a need for--going through a KO " dark night of the soul " so that we

can *see* the dawn when it finally rises.

Demanding that we pour our energies into an emotionally dishonest

" forgiveness " before we have had a chance to plomb the dark depths of our own

pain and anger would be such a drain on our vitality that it seems to me we'd

fall asleep from sheer exhaustion without ever sighting the coming of our own

dawn that reveals the way forward: a true being in the day that allows us to

navigate our experience,which is genuine transcendence,which is meaning: and

finding a meaning that guides us into living our lives with our potential in

mind is a better honoring of our parents than being mired in pity for them.

[Guest guest]

Being reprimanded or muzzled is not conducive to healing!!!! I also don't see

how anyone could work their way towards *true* forgiveness without first

processing through *all* of their feelings.It seems to me that arriving at a

" forgiveness " whereby you have denied your own emotional honesty amounts more to

stuffing it than truly forgiving.The mods at that other site are putting the

cart before the horse,in my opinion.

And besides,forgiveness isn't the only possible positive solution.I don't

" forgive " my nada for what she did to me because what she did to me is evil and

in my view of it it's up to *her* to seek forgiveness from the Universe because

it's out of my hands at this point.And in fact it was always out of my

hands--and if she is incapable of seeking that forgiveness it's not my

responsibility to do it for her.I want to *understand* why she behaved as she

did as that knowledge empowers me and for me it's being empowered with

understanding that is healing.I don't see that as the same as " forgiving " her.It

sounds like the folks at that other site are also trying to understand and

censoring their attempts at understanding is only going to retard their healing.

I mean,you can say: This person is mentally ill and that's all you need

to " understand " .Therefore,you can either protect yourself from their behavior or

you can forgive it.

But I'm not sure that for those of us who were actually raised by a

mentally ill parent if it's ever going to be so cut and dried on a purely

*emotional* level.Because as you yourself have pointed out,we are biologically

hard wired to bond with our parents,especially our mothers.Setting protective

boundaries has got to be more beneficial to *our own* mental health as a way of

understanding than " forgiving " our nadas/fadas their trespasses and

" understanding " them in that way.I think that no matter what there is going to

be grief and a grieving to go through because it's about the *parent*--and that

grief can definitely take the form of wanting to do the right thing whether that

right thing is getting our elderly parent situated in a nursing home although we

choose to maintain NC or LC--or--where that right thing is tending to ourselves

and our families so that the cycle of dysfunction is broken.The first example is

honoring our parents' essential humanity and the second example is honoring our

own essential humanity--which to me is a higher form of forgiveness than simply

" forgiving " our parents' disease.People who ask us to forgive the person because

of their disease seem to believe that in doing so we would be respecting that

person's basic humanity as if that alone is " enough " --I think personally that we

respect a person's basic humanity more when we acknowledge that the disease

itself has such a hold over them that we must react accordingly,not by

" forgiving " it,but by taking that person *as they are* by establishing

boundaries.A " forgiveness " that enables the expression of their disease does

nothing to promote access to the Higher Self,not for them and not for us.

" I forgive her/him because they just can't help it " has little to do with

transcending the tragedy that is mental illness,if we frame forgiveness itself

as an act of transcendence.That is actually pity,not forgiveness.Pitying the

poor soul does not truly respect or honor their essential humanity.Pity doesn't

lead to transcendence,nor is it the kind of love required for true

forgiveness.Loving someone enough to be *angry* about their behavior is an

acknowledgment that somewhere--somewhere--within this person there is a Higher

Self and our anger is a way of wanting that person to act more in accordance

with their Higher Self and it is also,I think,an expression of faith or a belief

in the existence of that person's Higher Self.We are angry in the first place

because this person has refused for whatever reasons to relate to us via their

loving,Higher Self and by being angry with them,we are actually recognizing

their humanity and their *potential*.A pitying " forgiveness " of their

condition,on the other hand,only says: I give up on your essential humanity,I

give up on the potential you have that is inherent in that very humanity.

If setting boundaries with our mentally ill parents is the only

recourse we have to transcending the tragedy of *their* inability to access

their better or higher selves,then that is a refusal to give up on the very idea

of transcendence: we will,by setting boundaries based on our parents *as they

are* and on their behavior *as it is*,transcend the tragedy as best we can which

is a way of honoring both their ability to do better as well as our own ability

to do better by guiding both parties away from the dysfunction or at the very

least by not simply enabling it.The rejection of dysfunction is an act of

respect for the humanity of both parties that,I think,goes much deeper and is

much more dynamic and life affirming than the pointless and static pity of

" forgiveness " .

In Marie Cardinal's memoir about her relationship with her viciously

abusive mother, " The Words To Say It " ,she writes about how the psychologist she

found to work with helped her to finally find the very words to express and

release her pain--by telling her, " Everything you feel is important " ,a simple

encouragement to explore with him the whole gamut of her emotions that turned

out to be the key to her healing.Without that,she wouldn't have gotten to the

moment one glorious,golden Spring day where she left his office *knowing* that

she had survived her mother's campaign to destroy her.Her therapy hadn't been

based on finding " forgiveness " in her heart but upon embracing the totality of

her heart-light dark and gradations of shadow--so that she could find her way

through the tangled thickets of her trauma.Unless we are empowered to pass

through the fullness of our being in this way,we can't have what I call a " Marie

Cardinal moment " : stepping out into the light of our own morning.We have a right

to--and even a need for--going through a KO " dark night of the soul " so that we

can *see* the dawn when it finally rises.

Demanding that we pour our energies into an emotionally dishonest

" forgiveness " before we have had a chance to plomb the dark depths of our own

pain and anger would be such a drain on our vitality that it seems to me we'd

fall asleep from sheer exhaustion without ever sighting the coming of our own

dawn that reveals the way forward: a true being in the day that allows us to

navigate our experience,which is genuine transcendence,which is meaning: and

finding a meaning that guides us into living our lives with our potential in

mind is a better honoring of our parents than being mired in pity for them.

[Guest guest]

Being reprimanded or muzzled is not conducive to healing!!!! I also don't see

how anyone could work their way towards *true* forgiveness without first

processing through *all* of their feelings.It seems to me that arriving at a

" forgiveness " whereby you have denied your own emotional honesty amounts more to

stuffing it than truly forgiving.The mods at that other site are putting the

cart before the horse,in my opinion.

And besides,forgiveness isn't the only possible positive solution.I don't

" forgive " my nada for what she did to me because what she did to me is evil and

in my view of it it's up to *her* to seek forgiveness from the Universe because

it's out of my hands at this point.And in fact it was always out of my

hands--and if she is incapable of seeking that forgiveness it's not my

responsibility to do it for her.I want to *understand* why she behaved as she

did as that knowledge empowers me and for me it's being empowered with

understanding that is healing.I don't see that as the same as " forgiving " her.It

sounds like the folks at that other site are also trying to understand and

censoring their attempts at understanding is only going to retard their healing.

I mean,you can say: This person is mentally ill and that's all you need

to " understand " .Therefore,you can either protect yourself from their behavior or

you can forgive it.

But I'm not sure that for those of us who were actually raised by a

mentally ill parent if it's ever going to be so cut and dried on a purely

*emotional* level.Because as you yourself have pointed out,we are biologically

hard wired to bond with our parents,especially our mothers.Setting protective

boundaries has got to be more beneficial to *our own* mental health as a way of

understanding than " forgiving " our nadas/fadas their trespasses and

" understanding " them in that way.I think that no matter what there is going to

be grief and a grieving to go through because it's about the *parent*--and that

grief can definitely take the form of wanting to do the right thing whether that

right thing is getting our elderly parent situated in a nursing home although we

choose to maintain NC or LC--or--where that right thing is tending to ourselves

and our families so that the cycle of dysfunction is broken.The first example is

honoring our parents' essential humanity and the second example is honoring our

own essential humanity--which to me is a higher form of forgiveness than simply

" forgiving " our parents' disease.People who ask us to forgive the person because

of their disease seem to believe that in doing so we would be respecting that

person's basic humanity as if that alone is " enough " --I think personally that we

respect a person's basic humanity more when we acknowledge that the disease

itself has such a hold over them that we must react accordingly,not by

" forgiving " it,but by taking that person *as they are* by establishing

boundaries.A " forgiveness " that enables the expression of their disease does

nothing to promote access to the Higher Self,not for them and not for us.

" I forgive her/him because they just can't help it " has little to do with

transcending the tragedy that is mental illness,if we frame forgiveness itself

as an act of transcendence.That is actually pity,not forgiveness.Pitying the

poor soul does not truly respect or honor their essential humanity.Pity doesn't

lead to transcendence,nor is it the kind of love required for true

forgiveness.Loving someone enough to be *angry* about their behavior is an

acknowledgment that somewhere--somewhere--within this person there is a Higher

Self and our anger is a way of wanting that person to act more in accordance

with their Higher Self and it is also,I think,an expression of faith or a belief

in the existence of that person's Higher Self.We are angry in the first place

because this person has refused for whatever reasons to relate to us via their

loving,Higher Self and by being angry with them,we are actually recognizing

their humanity and their *potential*.A pitying " forgiveness " of their

condition,on the other hand,only says: I give up on your essential humanity,I

give up on the potential you have that is inherent in that very humanity.

If setting boundaries with our mentally ill parents is the only

recourse we have to transcending the tragedy of *their* inability to access

their better or higher selves,then that is a refusal to give up on the very idea

of transcendence: we will,by setting boundaries based on our parents *as they

are* and on their behavior *as it is*,transcend the tragedy as best we can which

is a way of honoring both their ability to do better as well as our own ability

to do better by guiding both parties away from the dysfunction or at the very

least by not simply enabling it.The rejection of dysfunction is an act of

respect for the humanity of both parties that,I think,goes much deeper and is

much more dynamic and life affirming than the pointless and static pity of

" forgiveness " .

In Marie Cardinal's memoir about her relationship with her viciously

abusive mother, " The Words To Say It " ,she writes about how the psychologist she

found to work with helped her to finally find the very words to express and

release her pain--by telling her, " Everything you feel is important " ,a simple

encouragement to explore with him the whole gamut of her emotions that turned

out to be the key to her healing.Without that,she wouldn't have gotten to the

moment one glorious,golden Spring day where she left his office *knowing* that

she had survived her mother's campaign to destroy her.Her therapy hadn't been

based on finding " forgiveness " in her heart but upon embracing the totality of

her heart-light dark and gradations of shadow--so that she could find her way

through the tangled thickets of her trauma.Unless we are empowered to pass

through the fullness of our being in this way,we can't have what I call a " Marie

Cardinal moment " : stepping out into the light of our own morning.We have a right

to--and even a need for--going through a KO " dark night of the soul " so that we

can *see* the dawn when it finally rises.

Demanding that we pour our energies into an emotionally dishonest

" forgiveness " before we have had a chance to plomb the dark depths of our own

pain and anger would be such a drain on our vitality that it seems to me we'd

fall asleep from sheer exhaustion without ever sighting the coming of our own

dawn that reveals the way forward: a true being in the day that allows us to

navigate our experience,which is genuine transcendence,which is meaning: and

finding a meaning that guides us into living our lives with our potential in

mind is a better honoring of our parents than being mired in pity for them.

[Guest guest]

> http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells

I was able to access the comments at this website (Randi's article) and then

click on the comments link to get to the other article and the comments

following it.

I had posted this before on this thread, but I don't see my post, so I'm sending

this again. Apologies if you got this in duplicate from me.

Walkingto Happiness.

[Guest guest]

> http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells

I was able to access the comments at this website (Randi's article) and then

click on the comments link to get to the other article and the comments

following it.

I had posted this before on this thread, but I don't see my post, so I'm sending

this again. Apologies if you got this in duplicate from me.

Walkingto Happiness.

[Guest guest]

> http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells

I was able to access the comments at this website (Randi's article) and then

click on the comments link to get to the other article and the comments

following it.

I had posted this before on this thread, but I don't see my post, so I'm sending

this again. Apologies if you got this in duplicate from me.

Walkingto Happiness.

[Guest guest]

http://bpd.about.com/b/2010/12/23/have-compassion.htm

This is the direct link to the comments list.

[Guest guest]

http://bpd.about.com/b/2010/12/23/have-compassion.htm

This is the direct link to the comments list.

[Guest guest]

The thread I was referring to that disappeared was at bpdfamily.com.

That thread included both the About.com blog-article by Kristalyn

Salters-Pedneault, PhD *and* Randi's Kreger's article at her " SWOE " blog at

Psychology Today, but the moderators at bpdfamily.com chose to shut down the

large thread generated by both those articles (a thread which the moderators

initiated) because the majority of the posts said that the family members tend

to be so compassionate that it shades over into enabling behavior, which tends

to result in further abuse.

The posters at bpdfamily.com tangentally discussed the points: when does

compassion turn into enabling, and should someone with bpd be held accountable

for their behaviors and for the damage they do? It also brought up how some

family members become completely burned out in their ability to be compassionate

after decades of abuse, and how some family members have to go No Contact

because their bpd parent is actively trying to harm them, etc.

The mods at that site were not happy with the direction the thread was going in,

so they axed it.

Both the About.com article and the Psychology Today article and *their* comment

threads are still up, however.

Its only the one at bpdfamily.com that was euthanized.

-Annie

>

> > http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells

>

>

> I was able to access the comments at this website (Randi's article) and then

click on the comments link to get to the other article and the comments

following it.

> I had posted this before on this thread, but I don't see my post, so I'm

sending this again. Apologies if you got this in duplicate from me.

>

> Walkingto Happiness.

>

[Guest guest]

The thread I was referring to that disappeared was at bpdfamily.com.

That thread included both the About.com blog-article by Kristalyn

Salters-Pedneault, PhD *and* Randi's Kreger's article at her " SWOE " blog at

Psychology Today, but the moderators at bpdfamily.com chose to shut down the

large thread generated by both those articles (a thread which the moderators

initiated) because the majority of the posts said that the family members tend

to be so compassionate that it shades over into enabling behavior, which tends

to result in further abuse.

The posters at bpdfamily.com tangentally discussed the points: when does

compassion turn into enabling, and should someone with bpd be held accountable

for their behaviors and for the damage they do? It also brought up how some

family members become completely burned out in their ability to be compassionate

after decades of abuse, and how some family members have to go No Contact

because their bpd parent is actively trying to harm them, etc.

The mods at that site were not happy with the direction the thread was going in,

so they axed it.

Both the About.com article and the Psychology Today article and *their* comment

threads are still up, however.

Its only the one at bpdfamily.com that was euthanized.

-Annie

>

> > http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells

>

>

> I was able to access the comments at this website (Randi's article) and then

click on the comments link to get to the other article and the comments

following it.

> I had posted this before on this thread, but I don't see my post, so I'm

sending this again. Apologies if you got this in duplicate from me.

>

> Walkingto Happiness.

>

[Guest guest]

The thread I was referring to that disappeared was at bpdfamily.com.

That thread included both the About.com blog-article by Kristalyn

Salters-Pedneault, PhD *and* Randi's Kreger's article at her " SWOE " blog at

Psychology Today, but the moderators at bpdfamily.com chose to shut down the

large thread generated by both those articles (a thread which the moderators

initiated) because the majority of the posts said that the family members tend

to be so compassionate that it shades over into enabling behavior, which tends

to result in further abuse.

The posters at bpdfamily.com tangentally discussed the points: when does

compassion turn into enabling, and should someone with bpd be held accountable

for their behaviors and for the damage they do? It also brought up how some

family members become completely burned out in their ability to be compassionate

after decades of abuse, and how some family members have to go No Contact

because their bpd parent is actively trying to harm them, etc.

The mods at that site were not happy with the direction the thread was going in,

so they axed it.

Both the About.com article and the Psychology Today article and *their* comment

threads are still up, however.

Its only the one at bpdfamily.com that was euthanized.

-Annie

>

> > http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells

>

>

> I was able to access the comments at this website (Randi's article) and then

click on the comments link to get to the other article and the comments

following it.

> I had posted this before on this thread, but I don't see my post, so I'm

sending this again. Apologies if you got this in duplicate from me.

>

> Walkingto Happiness.

>

[Guest guest]

So that thread is just...gone? As in, taken completely down???

I went over there looking, but I didn't see anything like this, so am asking.

Sheesh. Somebody should have gotten a screen shot.

No WONDER we need a book and blog.

--.

[Guest guest]

So that thread is just...gone? As in, taken completely down???

I went over there looking, but I didn't see anything like this, so am asking.

Sheesh. Somebody should have gotten a screen shot.

No WONDER we need a book and blog.

--.

[Guest guest]

I think you're right. Personality disorder (like other medical conditions) can

come in differing degrees of severity. Some are only mildly affected and some

are greatly affected. The level of severity impacts the individual with pd

which impacts their foo, and their chosen family.

And I agree with you that compassion and responsibility are in an entirely

different context depending on whether one is speaking of a non-pd parent with a

disordered child, as opposed to a non-pd child with a disordered, abusive

parent.

The support groups for non-pd parents who have a minor child or adult child with

bpd are hard for me to read because of the overwhelming guilt and anguish these

poor non-pd parents feel; they believe on some level that they must have caused

it, somehow. My heart goes out to them, their guilt and suffering are so deep.

From the posts and threads I've read, its only at the point where their child is

actively, repeatedly trying to kill herself or is threatening her parents & sibs

with killing them, that the parents can bring themselves to create some

emotional distance for their own safety and the safety of their other children.

That (to me) would be THE worst case scenario, the worst tragedy. I don't think

I would be able to survive having a child with bpd. Even though I would know

intellectually that I didn't " give " her bpd, the misplaced and inappropriate

guilt over not being able to " fix " it, not being able to relieve my child's

suffering would destroy me. I don't know how these parents handle it, truly.

Yes, I agree that its " comparing apples to oranges " when it comes to dealing

with such issues as feelings of responsibility, compassion and guilt that are

faced by non-pd parents with a pd child, vs us non-pd children of

personality-disordered parents.

-Annie

>

> I've looked at a lot of sites, and there seems to be a very strong distinction

between those who have a BP with whom they want to retain a

relationship......and those of us who want to break off the relationship as

being too toxic and destructive.  Parents of BPD children particularly stress

coping mechanisms.........as do people who are married to a BP and who cannot

see a way out, for whatever reason they might have.........including religion,

economic dependency, or other cultural or familial restrictions.  I also think

there might be *degrees* of BPD..........some BPs seem to behave MUCH better

than others.

>

> Alastriona