Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS response to Cheney incident

February 17, 2006

Man....if I get on 45 today and I'm in a wreck so bad my head is hanging on by a

thread...... I want you guys to come get me..... you really do show a passion

and devotion to professionalism. Truly there seems to be a much higher standard

of practice among the people on this site...... and a devotion to academic

questions. A lot fewer mistakes are made by people who are left brained and

always thinking of the science of something.

Debra Parsons

hatfield wrote:

I beg to differ, if he made the trip to Kingsville by ground, then he was in

a facility that could have at least provided stabilization, which I am

certain they did. If he was stabilized, then why would he need air transport

from there? Smoother? Not hardly, not the birds I have been in, I would take

a bus any day. Age and birdshot alone do not constitute the need for air

transport.

Mike

Hatfield FF/EMT-P

Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS response

to Cheney incident

One answer is to look at the times:

Halo Flight arrived at Kingsville at 7:29pm; arrived at Chriistus Spohn in

Corpus at 8:09pm. Given 5-10 minutes on the ground to start with, that

gives a flight of about 30-35 minutes. Ground ambulance travel time on the

same route would be about triple that, and would be a rougher trip - for a

78 year old with a number of unnatural holes in his body.

Christus Spohn is a Level III trauma facility; the Kingsville hospital is

a Level IV. Greater capabilities and more experience with GSW.

As for why he wasn't flown to Kingsville, that is also shown by the times.

It took about 25 minutes to get him to Kingsville by ground ambulance; it

took about the same amount of time to get the bird to Kingsville once it was

called - meaning he got to the hospital in Kingsville more quickly by

ground. So, transport by air was not only not needed for that portion, it

was a worse choice for the patient.

For the transfer to the higher-level facility, transport by air was much

faster and smoother for the patient. Reasonable call again, and a medical

one that the Kingsville hospital would have made on a routine basis.

wegandy1938@... wrote:

Well, I wouldn't think, sight unseen or otherwise, that the 78 year old

needed to be flown. What would a helo flight do for him? Nothing except up

his bill $10,000.

Not only that, but his risk of death or injury quadruples the minute he gets

into that pile of nuts, bolts, and wires just waiting to fly apart.

No flight for this guy.

Gene G.

> Everything about the entire incident is tainted with politics..... medical

> judgments in those situations always come in second... You would think,

> sight unseen, that any 78 year old would need the flight... especially one

who

> has good medical coverage, that is factor sometimes to as the system

works.

> You know they were trying to keep it quiet.... and you know their people

made

> the decisions... not the EMS providers.

>

> ExLngHrn@... wrote: Comments on the aeromedical aspect?

>

> -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT-B

> Austin, Texas

>

> Anatomy of medical response to shooting

> Secret Service alerts an air ambulance at 6 p.m. initially

> By Corpus Christi Caller-Times

> February 16, 2006

>

> In the minutes following Vice President Dick Cheney's accidental shooting

of

> Austin lawyer Harry Whittington, Cheney's medical crew scrambled to treat

> the injured man while the Secret Service called for medical backup.

> Whittington, 78, was struck on the face, neck and chest between 5:30 and

> 5:50 p.m. Saturday while quail hunting at the 50,000-acre Armstrong Ranch

in

> Kenedy County.

> " That's approximate from the information we have got, " Secret Service

> spokesman Zahren said of the accident's time. " That's coming from our

people

> that were down there and the local agents from Mc. "

> Whittington had stepped away from Cheney and fellow hunter Pam Willeford,

> U.S. ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein, to retrieve downed

quail, and

> Cheney accidentally sprayed him with birdshot while firing on a second

covey

> of quail.

> The Secret Service notified HALO-Flight dispatch about 6 p.m., putting the

> air ambulance service on standby in case Whittington needed to be flown to

> Christus Spohn Hospital Memorial, the area's trauma center, said

HALO-Flight

> executive director Randy Rowe. Minutes later, Christus Spohn Hospital

Kleberg in

> Kingsville was notified that Whittington was en route.

> Both Cheney's office and the Secret Service have said the decision to take

> Whittington to Kingsville first was made by medical personnel who travel

with

> Cheney, who has a history of heart problems.

> " I can't comment to why he wasn't flown, " Zahren said. " The medical folks

> that were there would have weighed more into that than our people on the

scene.

> Decisions were made on their advice at that point. "

> Whittington was taken by ambulance to the Kingsville hospital about 6:20

> p.m., Zahren said.

> " It was an ambulance on standby for the vice president's visit, " Zahren

> said. " It had been dedicated and it was given up to treat the victim. "

> The ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital between 6:45 and 6:50

p.m.,

> Christus Spohn spokeswoman Wheeler said.

> HALO-Flight was called again at 7:07 p.m. after Spohn Kleberg medical

> personnel decided Whittington needed more advanced treatment.

> " Typically, why we get calls for transfers is for a higher level of care

or

> a doctor preference, " Rowe said.

> The air ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital at 7:29 p.m. and

landed

> at the Corpus Christi trauma center at 8:19 p.m., Rowe said. Whittington

was

> awake and talking during the flight, he said.

> Contact at 886-3716 or HYPERLINK mailto:powellj@...

> powellj@...

>

February 17, 2006

We have 2 sections of farmland south of Stratford(Pheasant Capital of Texas).

The first couple of days of pheasant season, I'll guarantee that a few hunters

will get peppered by shot. Usually not a big deal, ask Stratford EMS how many

times they have called a helicopter for a 'peppering'. I suppose since this is

the second VP who has shot somebody ( Hamilton was the first), the

press has to overblow it.

-MH

>>> ExLngHrn@... 2/16/2006 4:19 pm >>>

Comments on the aeromedical aspect?

-Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT-B

Austin, Texas

Anatomy of medical response to shooting

Secret Service alerts an air ambulance at 6 p.m. initially

By Corpus Christi Caller-Times

February 16, 2006

In the minutes following Vice President Dick Cheney's accidental shooting of

Austin lawyer Harry Whittington, Cheney's medical crew scrambled to treat the

injured man while the Secret Service called for medical backup.

Whittington, 78, was struck on the face, neck and chest between 5:30 and 5:50

p.m. Saturday while quail hunting at the 50,000-acre Armstrong Ranch in Kenedy

County.

" That's approximate from the information we have got, " Secret Service spokesman

Zahren said of the accident's time. " That's coming from our people that

were down there and the local agents from Mc. "

Whittington had stepped away from Cheney and fellow hunter Pam Willeford, U.S.

ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein, to retrieve downed quail, and

Cheney accidentally sprayed him with birdshot while firing on a second covey of

quail.

The Secret Service notified HALO-Flight dispatch about 6 p.m., putting the air

ambulance service on standby in case Whittington needed to be flown to Christus

Spohn Hospital Memorial, the area's trauma center, said HALO-Flight executive

director Randy Rowe. Minutes later, Christus Spohn Hospital Kleberg in

Kingsville was notified that Whittington was en route.

Both Cheney's office and the Secret Service have said the decision to take

Whittington to Kingsville first was made by medical personnel who travel with

Cheney, who has a history of heart problems.

" I can't comment to why he wasn't flown, " Zahren said. " The medical folks that

were there would have weighed more into that than our people on the scene.

Decisions were made on their advice at that point. "

Whittington was taken by ambulance to the Kingsville hospital about 6:20 p.m.,

Zahren said.

" It was an ambulance on standby for the vice president's visit, " Zahren said.

" It had been dedicated and it was given up to treat the victim. "

The ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital between 6:45 and 6:50 p.m.,

Christus Spohn spokeswoman Wheeler said.

HALO-Flight was called again at 7:07 p.m. after Spohn Kleberg medical personnel

decided Whittington needed more advanced treatment.

" Typically, why we get calls for transfers is for a higher level of care or a

doctor preference, " Rowe said.

The air ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital at 7:29 p.m. and landed at

the Corpus Christi trauma center at 8:19 p.m., Rowe said. Whittington was awake

and talking during the flight, he said.

Contact at 886-3716 or HYPERLINK mailto:powellj@...

powellj@...

February 17, 2006

We have 2 sections of farmland south of Stratford(Pheasant Capital of Texas).

The first couple of days of pheasant season, I'll guarantee that a few hunters

will get peppered by shot. Usually not a big deal, ask Stratford EMS how many

times they have called a helicopter for a 'peppering'. I suppose since this is

the second VP who has shot somebody ( Hamilton was the first), the

press has to overblow it.

-MH

>>> ExLngHrn@... 2/16/2006 4:19 pm >>>

Comments on the aeromedical aspect?

-Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT-B

Austin, Texas

Anatomy of medical response to shooting

Secret Service alerts an air ambulance at 6 p.m. initially

By Corpus Christi Caller-Times

February 16, 2006

In the minutes following Vice President Dick Cheney's accidental shooting of

Austin lawyer Harry Whittington, Cheney's medical crew scrambled to treat the

injured man while the Secret Service called for medical backup.

Whittington, 78, was struck on the face, neck and chest between 5:30 and 5:50

p.m. Saturday while quail hunting at the 50,000-acre Armstrong Ranch in Kenedy

County.

" That's approximate from the information we have got, " Secret Service spokesman

Zahren said of the accident's time. " That's coming from our people that

were down there and the local agents from Mc. "

Whittington had stepped away from Cheney and fellow hunter Pam Willeford, U.S.

ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein, to retrieve downed quail, and

Cheney accidentally sprayed him with birdshot while firing on a second covey of

quail.

The Secret Service notified HALO-Flight dispatch about 6 p.m., putting the air

ambulance service on standby in case Whittington needed to be flown to Christus

Spohn Hospital Memorial, the area's trauma center, said HALO-Flight executive

director Randy Rowe. Minutes later, Christus Spohn Hospital Kleberg in

Kingsville was notified that Whittington was en route.

Both Cheney's office and the Secret Service have said the decision to take

Whittington to Kingsville first was made by medical personnel who travel with

Cheney, who has a history of heart problems.

" I can't comment to why he wasn't flown, " Zahren said. " The medical folks that

were there would have weighed more into that than our people on the scene.

Decisions were made on their advice at that point. "

Whittington was taken by ambulance to the Kingsville hospital about 6:20 p.m.,

Zahren said.

" It was an ambulance on standby for the vice president's visit, " Zahren said.

" It had been dedicated and it was given up to treat the victim. "

The ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital between 6:45 and 6:50 p.m.,

Christus Spohn spokeswoman Wheeler said.

HALO-Flight was called again at 7:07 p.m. after Spohn Kleberg medical personnel

decided Whittington needed more advanced treatment.

" Typically, why we get calls for transfers is for a higher level of care or a

doctor preference, " Rowe said.

The air ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital at 7:29 p.m. and landed at

the Corpus Christi trauma center at 8:19 p.m., Rowe said. Whittington was awake

and talking during the flight, he said.

Contact at 886-3716 or HYPERLINK mailto:powellj@...

powellj@...

February 17, 2006

Ok I have read all the post and will reply to Mike's because it was the

last one I read. I will say up front that I would have flown this

gentleman to the closest trauma center. Several questions first.

1. How many pellets in 7.5 or 8 bird shot?

2. Can bird shot kill?

3. Is a human hide tougher to penetrate than a bird, rabbit ect...?

Answer:

1. A bunch

2. Yea it can

3. No it is not

Even though this guy was conscious and talking I would have assumed

immediately that the shot penetrated the chest cavity. Which makes this

man shot multiple times in the chest and neck. The only place this guy

needs to be is in a trauma center immediately. Unless ground can get him

there before the helicopter including any wait time for the bird then he

needs to go by helicopter.

Multiple gunshot wounds to the chest and neck should be reason enough

for any arm chair medic, doctor or lawyer to fly this guy. I think if

this gentleman walks out of the hospital without any problems he is a

very very lucky man. A littler closer or a few more shot hitting vital

organs and this would have been a different story. Everyone in

government is trying to down play this incident in regards to the

patients condition for obvious reasons. They can down play it all they

want but it was very serious.

Lets talk about hunting today. I have been a bird hunter since I was big

enough to pick up a shot gun and pull the trigger. Safety has always

been a big concern and I preach it to my son who is a better bird hunter

than I am. I have been hunting for at least 40 years and have seen minor

lapses in safety for whatever reason or another. None of those have been

because the other hunter did not have safety on his mind while hunting.

Hell that why they call them hunting accidents. If not they would be

called hunting murder or hunting blow your ass up.

I would bet that the Vice President (even though he is a republican) had

every intention of being a safe hunter that day.

At the end of the day here is what you do:

Fly the patient when necessary and practice safe hunting.

Henry

PS. What I would like to see occur on this list server is less dogging

of the helicopter issue and more instruction and or education on when it

is appropriate to fly. Dr. B, Gene and others that people look up to, if

we keep going down this path younger medics that read your post may

interpret that helicopters have no place in EMS and should not be used.

I firmly believe that they have a place and provide a service that we

can take advantage of when it is necessary. Kinda like the baby and bath

water thing.

hatfield wrote:

> Because he is 78, he needs to be flown? Because he was hit with

> birdshot, he

> needs to be flown? What about his true medical condition? What of

> that,

> required flight? The fact that he has good medical coverage? This is a

>

> factor when flying?

>

> Mike

>

> And I stand corrected, he was flown.

>

> Hatfield FF/EMT-P

>

> Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS

> response

> to Cheney incident

>

> Everything about the entire incident is tainted with politics.....

> medical

> judgments in those situations always come in second... You would

> think,

> sight unseen, that any 78 year old would need the flight... especially

> one

> who has good medical coverage, that is factor sometimes to as the

> system

> works. You know they were trying to keep it quiet.... and you know

> their

> people made the decisions... not the EMS providers.

>

> ExLngHrn@... wrote: Comments on the aeromedical aspect?

>

> -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT-B

> Austin, Texas

>

> Anatomy of medical response to shooting

> Secret Service alerts an air ambulance at 6 p.m. initially

> By Corpus Christi Caller-Times

> February 16, 2006

>

> In the minutes following Vice President Dick Cheney's accidental

> shooting of

> Austin lawyer Harry Whittington, Cheney's medical crew scrambled to

> treat

> the injured man while the Secret Service called for medical backup.

> Whittington, 78, was struck on the face, neck and chest between 5:30

> and

> 5:50 p.m. Saturday while quail hunting at the 50,000-acre Armstrong

> Ranch in

> Kenedy County.

> " That's approximate from the information we have got, " Secret Service

> spokesman Zahren said of the accident's time. " That's coming from

> our

> people that were down there and the local agents from Mc. "

> Whittington had stepped away from Cheney and fellow hunter Pam

> Willeford,

> U.S. ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein, to retrieve downed

> quail,

> and Cheney accidentally sprayed him with birdshot while firing on a

> second

> covey of quail.

> The Secret Service notified HALO-Flight dispatch about 6 p.m., putting

> the

> air ambulance service on standby in case Whittington needed to be

> flown to

> Christus Spohn Hospital Memorial, the area's trauma center, said

> HALO-Flight

> executive director Randy Rowe. Minutes later, Christus Spohn Hospital

> Kleberg in Kingsville was notified that Whittington was en route.

> Both Cheney's office and the Secret Service have said the decision to

> take

> Whittington to Kingsville first was made by medical personnel who

> travel

> with Cheney, who has a history of heart problems.

> " I can't comment to why he wasn't flown, " Zahren said. " The medical

> folks

> that were there would have weighed more into that than our people on

> the

> scene. Decisions were made on their advice at that point. "

> Whittington was taken by ambulance to the Kingsville hospital about

> 6:20

> p.m., Zahren said.

> " It was an ambulance on standby for the vice president's visit, "

> Zahren

> said. " It had been dedicated and it was given up to treat the victim. "

>

> The ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital between 6:45 and 6:50

> p.m.,

> Christus Spohn spokeswoman Wheeler said.

> HALO-Flight was called again at 7:07 p.m. after Spohn Kleberg medical

> personnel decided Whittington needed more advanced treatment.

> " Typically, why we get calls for transfers is for a higher level of

> care or

> a doctor preference, " Rowe said.

> The air ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital at 7:29 p.m. and

> landed

> at the Corpus Christi trauma center at 8:19 p.m., Rowe said.

> Whittington was

> awake and talking during the flight, he said.

> Contact at 886-3716 or HYPERLINK

> mailto:powellj@...

> powellj@...

>

February 17, 2006

Ok I have read all the post and will reply to Mike's because it was the

last one I read. I will say up front that I would have flown this

gentleman to the closest trauma center. Several questions first.

1. How many pellets in 7.5 or 8 bird shot?

2. Can bird shot kill?

3. Is a human hide tougher to penetrate than a bird, rabbit ect...?

Answer:

1. A bunch

2. Yea it can

3. No it is not

Even though this guy was conscious and talking I would have assumed

immediately that the shot penetrated the chest cavity. Which makes this

man shot multiple times in the chest and neck. The only place this guy

needs to be is in a trauma center immediately. Unless ground can get him

there before the helicopter including any wait time for the bird then he

needs to go by helicopter.

Multiple gunshot wounds to the chest and neck should be reason enough

for any arm chair medic, doctor or lawyer to fly this guy. I think if

this gentleman walks out of the hospital without any problems he is a

very very lucky man. A littler closer or a few more shot hitting vital

organs and this would have been a different story. Everyone in

government is trying to down play this incident in regards to the

patients condition for obvious reasons. They can down play it all they

want but it was very serious.

Lets talk about hunting today. I have been a bird hunter since I was big

enough to pick up a shot gun and pull the trigger. Safety has always

been a big concern and I preach it to my son who is a better bird hunter

than I am. I have been hunting for at least 40 years and have seen minor

lapses in safety for whatever reason or another. None of those have been

because the other hunter did not have safety on his mind while hunting.

Hell that why they call them hunting accidents. If not they would be

called hunting murder or hunting blow your ass up.

I would bet that the Vice President (even though he is a republican) had

every intention of being a safe hunter that day.

At the end of the day here is what you do:

Fly the patient when necessary and practice safe hunting.

Henry

PS. What I would like to see occur on this list server is less dogging

of the helicopter issue and more instruction and or education on when it

is appropriate to fly. Dr. B, Gene and others that people look up to, if

we keep going down this path younger medics that read your post may

interpret that helicopters have no place in EMS and should not be used.

I firmly believe that they have a place and provide a service that we

can take advantage of when it is necessary. Kinda like the baby and bath

water thing.

hatfield wrote:

> Because he is 78, he needs to be flown? Because he was hit with

> birdshot, he

> needs to be flown? What about his true medical condition? What of

> that,

> required flight? The fact that he has good medical coverage? This is a

>

> factor when flying?

>

> Mike

>

> And I stand corrected, he was flown.

>

> Hatfield FF/EMT-P

>

> Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS

> response

> to Cheney incident

>

> Everything about the entire incident is tainted with politics.....

> medical

> judgments in those situations always come in second... You would

> think,

> sight unseen, that any 78 year old would need the flight... especially

> one

> who has good medical coverage, that is factor sometimes to as the

> system

> works. You know they were trying to keep it quiet.... and you know

> their

> people made the decisions... not the EMS providers.

>

> ExLngHrn@... wrote: Comments on the aeromedical aspect?

>

> -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT-B

> Austin, Texas

>

> Anatomy of medical response to shooting

> Secret Service alerts an air ambulance at 6 p.m. initially

> By Corpus Christi Caller-Times

> February 16, 2006

>

> In the minutes following Vice President Dick Cheney's accidental

> shooting of

> Austin lawyer Harry Whittington, Cheney's medical crew scrambled to

> treat

> the injured man while the Secret Service called for medical backup.

> Whittington, 78, was struck on the face, neck and chest between 5:30

> and

> 5:50 p.m. Saturday while quail hunting at the 50,000-acre Armstrong

> Ranch in

> Kenedy County.

> " That's approximate from the information we have got, " Secret Service

> spokesman Zahren said of the accident's time. " That's coming from

> our

> people that were down there and the local agents from Mc. "

> Whittington had stepped away from Cheney and fellow hunter Pam

> Willeford,

> U.S. ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein, to retrieve downed

> quail,

> and Cheney accidentally sprayed him with birdshot while firing on a

> second

> covey of quail.

> The Secret Service notified HALO-Flight dispatch about 6 p.m., putting

> the

> air ambulance service on standby in case Whittington needed to be

> flown to

> Christus Spohn Hospital Memorial, the area's trauma center, said

> HALO-Flight

> executive director Randy Rowe. Minutes later, Christus Spohn Hospital

> Kleberg in Kingsville was notified that Whittington was en route.

> Both Cheney's office and the Secret Service have said the decision to

> take

> Whittington to Kingsville first was made by medical personnel who

> travel

> with Cheney, who has a history of heart problems.

> " I can't comment to why he wasn't flown, " Zahren said. " The medical

> folks

> that were there would have weighed more into that than our people on

> the

> scene. Decisions were made on their advice at that point. "

> Whittington was taken by ambulance to the Kingsville hospital about

> 6:20

> p.m., Zahren said.

> " It was an ambulance on standby for the vice president's visit, "

> Zahren

> said. " It had been dedicated and it was given up to treat the victim. "

>

> The ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital between 6:45 and 6:50

> p.m.,

> Christus Spohn spokeswoman Wheeler said.

> HALO-Flight was called again at 7:07 p.m. after Spohn Kleberg medical

> personnel decided Whittington needed more advanced treatment.

> " Typically, why we get calls for transfers is for a higher level of

> care or

> a doctor preference, " Rowe said.

> The air ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital at 7:29 p.m. and

> landed

> at the Corpus Christi trauma center at 8:19 p.m., Rowe said.

> Whittington was

> awake and talking during the flight, he said.

> Contact at 886-3716 or HYPERLINK

> mailto:powellj@...

> powellj@...

>

February 17, 2006

Ok I have read all the post and will reply to Mike's because it was the

last one I read. I will say up front that I would have flown this

gentleman to the closest trauma center. Several questions first.

1. How many pellets in 7.5 or 8 bird shot?

2. Can bird shot kill?

3. Is a human hide tougher to penetrate than a bird, rabbit ect...?

Answer:

1. A bunch

2. Yea it can

3. No it is not

Even though this guy was conscious and talking I would have assumed

immediately that the shot penetrated the chest cavity. Which makes this

man shot multiple times in the chest and neck. The only place this guy

needs to be is in a trauma center immediately. Unless ground can get him

there before the helicopter including any wait time for the bird then he

needs to go by helicopter.

Multiple gunshot wounds to the chest and neck should be reason enough

for any arm chair medic, doctor or lawyer to fly this guy. I think if

this gentleman walks out of the hospital without any problems he is a

very very lucky man. A littler closer or a few more shot hitting vital

organs and this would have been a different story. Everyone in

government is trying to down play this incident in regards to the

patients condition for obvious reasons. They can down play it all they

want but it was very serious.

Lets talk about hunting today. I have been a bird hunter since I was big

enough to pick up a shot gun and pull the trigger. Safety has always

been a big concern and I preach it to my son who is a better bird hunter

than I am. I have been hunting for at least 40 years and have seen minor

lapses in safety for whatever reason or another. None of those have been

because the other hunter did not have safety on his mind while hunting.

Hell that why they call them hunting accidents. If not they would be

called hunting murder or hunting blow your ass up.

I would bet that the Vice President (even though he is a republican) had

every intention of being a safe hunter that day.

At the end of the day here is what you do:

Fly the patient when necessary and practice safe hunting.

Henry

PS. What I would like to see occur on this list server is less dogging

of the helicopter issue and more instruction and or education on when it

is appropriate to fly. Dr. B, Gene and others that people look up to, if

we keep going down this path younger medics that read your post may

interpret that helicopters have no place in EMS and should not be used.

I firmly believe that they have a place and provide a service that we

can take advantage of when it is necessary. Kinda like the baby and bath

water thing.

hatfield wrote:

> Because he is 78, he needs to be flown? Because he was hit with

> birdshot, he

> needs to be flown? What about his true medical condition? What of

> that,

> required flight? The fact that he has good medical coverage? This is a

>

> factor when flying?

>

> Mike

>

> And I stand corrected, he was flown.

>

> Hatfield FF/EMT-P

>

> Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS

> response

> to Cheney incident

>

> Everything about the entire incident is tainted with politics.....

> medical

> judgments in those situations always come in second... You would

> think,

> sight unseen, that any 78 year old would need the flight... especially

> one

> who has good medical coverage, that is factor sometimes to as the

> system

> works. You know they were trying to keep it quiet.... and you know

> their

> people made the decisions... not the EMS providers.

>

> ExLngHrn@... wrote: Comments on the aeromedical aspect?

>

> -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT-B

> Austin, Texas

>

> Anatomy of medical response to shooting

> Secret Service alerts an air ambulance at 6 p.m. initially

> By Corpus Christi Caller-Times

> February 16, 2006

>

> In the minutes following Vice President Dick Cheney's accidental

> shooting of

> Austin lawyer Harry Whittington, Cheney's medical crew scrambled to

> treat

> the injured man while the Secret Service called for medical backup.

> Whittington, 78, was struck on the face, neck and chest between 5:30

> and

> 5:50 p.m. Saturday while quail hunting at the 50,000-acre Armstrong

> Ranch in

> Kenedy County.

> " That's approximate from the information we have got, " Secret Service

> spokesman Zahren said of the accident's time. " That's coming from

> our

> people that were down there and the local agents from Mc. "

> Whittington had stepped away from Cheney and fellow hunter Pam

> Willeford,

> U.S. ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein, to retrieve downed

> quail,

> and Cheney accidentally sprayed him with birdshot while firing on a

> second

> covey of quail.

> The Secret Service notified HALO-Flight dispatch about 6 p.m., putting

> the

> air ambulance service on standby in case Whittington needed to be

> flown to

> Christus Spohn Hospital Memorial, the area's trauma center, said

> HALO-Flight

> executive director Randy Rowe. Minutes later, Christus Spohn Hospital

> Kleberg in Kingsville was notified that Whittington was en route.

> Both Cheney's office and the Secret Service have said the decision to

> take

> Whittington to Kingsville first was made by medical personnel who

> travel

> with Cheney, who has a history of heart problems.

> " I can't comment to why he wasn't flown, " Zahren said. " The medical

> folks

> that were there would have weighed more into that than our people on

> the

> scene. Decisions were made on their advice at that point. "

> Whittington was taken by ambulance to the Kingsville hospital about

> 6:20

> p.m., Zahren said.

> " It was an ambulance on standby for the vice president's visit, "

> Zahren

> said. " It had been dedicated and it was given up to treat the victim. "

>

> The ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital between 6:45 and 6:50

> p.m.,

> Christus Spohn spokeswoman Wheeler said.

> HALO-Flight was called again at 7:07 p.m. after Spohn Kleberg medical

> personnel decided Whittington needed more advanced treatment.

> " Typically, why we get calls for transfers is for a higher level of

> care or

> a doctor preference, " Rowe said.

> The air ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital at 7:29 p.m. and

> landed

> at the Corpus Christi trauma center at 8:19 p.m., Rowe said.

> Whittington was

> awake and talking during the flight, he said.

> Contact at 886-3716 or HYPERLINK

> mailto:powellj@...

> powellj@...

>

February 17, 2006

A followup question, if I may...

How do we decide which trauma facility to transport (either by ground or air) to

transport a patient to?

In this case, the patient is now at a Level III center in Corpus Christi. Would

a trip to a Level I facility in San been appropriate?

-Wes

Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS

> response

> to Cheney incident

>

> Everything about the entire incident is tainted with politics.....

> medical

> judgments in those situations always come in second... You would

> think,

> sight unseen, that any 78 year old would need the flight... especially

> one

> who has good medical coverage, that is factor sometimes to as the

> system

> works. You know they were trying to keep it quiet.... and you know

> their

> people made the decisions... not the EMS providers.

>

> ExLngHrn@... wrote: Comments on the aeromedical aspect?

>

> -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT-B

> Austin, Texas

>

> Anatomy of medical response to shooting

> Secret Service alerts an air ambulance at 6 p.m. initially

> By Corpus Christi Caller-Times

> February 16, 2006

>

> In the minutes following Vice President Dick Cheney's accidental

> shooting of

> Austin lawyer Harry Whittington, Cheney's medical crew scrambled to

> treat

> the injured man while the Secret Service called for medical backup.

> Whittington, 78, was struck on the face, neck and chest between 5:30

> and

> 5:50 p.m. Saturday while quail hunting at the 50,000-acre Armstrong

> Ranch in

> Kenedy County.

> " That's approximate from the information we have got, " Secret Service

> spokesman Zahren said of the accident's time. " That's coming from

> our

> people that were down there and the local agents from Mc. "

> Whittington had stepped away from Cheney and fellow hunter Pam

> Willeford,

> U.S. ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein, to retrieve downed

> quail,

> and Cheney accidentally sprayed him with birdshot while firing on a

> second

> covey of quail.

> The Secret Service notified HALO-Flight dispatch about 6 p.m., putting

> the

> air ambulance service on standby in case Whittington needed to be

> flown to

> Christus Spohn Hospital Memorial, the area's trauma center, said

> HALO-Flight

> executive director Randy Rowe. Minutes later, Christus Spohn Hospital

> Kleberg in Kingsville was notified that Whittington was en route.

> Both Cheney's office and the Secret Service have said the decision to

> take

> Whittington to Kingsville first was made by medical personnel who

> travel

> with Cheney, who has a history of heart problems.

> " I can't comment to why he wasn't flown, " Zahren said. " The medical

> folks

> that were there would have weighed more into that than our people on

> the

> scene. Decisions were made on their advice at that point. "

> Whittington was taken by ambulance to the Kingsville hospital about

> 6:20

> p.m., Zahren said.

> " It was an ambulance on standby for the vice president's visit, "

> Zahren

> said. " It had been dedicated and it was given up to treat the victim. "

>

> The ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital between 6:45 and 6:50

> p.m.,

> Christus Spohn spokeswoman Wheeler said.

> HALO-Flight was called again at 7:07 p.m. after Spohn Kleberg medical

> personnel decided Whittington needed more advanced treatment.

> " Typically, why we get calls for transfers is for a higher level of

> care or

> a doctor preference, " Rowe said.

> The air ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital at 7:29 p.m. and

> landed

> at the Corpus Christi trauma center at 8:19 p.m., Rowe said.

> Whittington was

> awake and talking during the flight, he said.

> Contact at 886-3716 or HYPERLINK

> mailto:powellj@...

> powellj@...

>

February 17, 2006

A followup question, if I may...

How do we decide which trauma facility to transport (either by ground or air) to

transport a patient to?

In this case, the patient is now at a Level III center in Corpus Christi. Would

a trip to a Level I facility in San been appropriate?

-Wes

Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS

> response

> to Cheney incident

>

> Everything about the entire incident is tainted with politics.....

> medical

> judgments in those situations always come in second... You would

> think,

> sight unseen, that any 78 year old would need the flight... especially

> one

> who has good medical coverage, that is factor sometimes to as the

> system

> works. You know they were trying to keep it quiet.... and you know

> their

> people made the decisions... not the EMS providers.

>

> ExLngHrn@... wrote: Comments on the aeromedical aspect?

>

> -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT-B

> Austin, Texas

>

> Anatomy of medical response to shooting

> Secret Service alerts an air ambulance at 6 p.m. initially

> By Corpus Christi Caller-Times

> February 16, 2006

>

> In the minutes following Vice President Dick Cheney's accidental

> shooting of

> Austin lawyer Harry Whittington, Cheney's medical crew scrambled to

> treat

> the injured man while the Secret Service called for medical backup.

> Whittington, 78, was struck on the face, neck and chest between 5:30

> and

> 5:50 p.m. Saturday while quail hunting at the 50,000-acre Armstrong

> Ranch in

> Kenedy County.

> " That's approximate from the information we have got, " Secret Service

> spokesman Zahren said of the accident's time. " That's coming from

> our

> people that were down there and the local agents from Mc. "

> Whittington had stepped away from Cheney and fellow hunter Pam

> Willeford,

> U.S. ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein, to retrieve downed

> quail,

> and Cheney accidentally sprayed him with birdshot while firing on a

> second

> covey of quail.

> The Secret Service notified HALO-Flight dispatch about 6 p.m., putting

> the

> air ambulance service on standby in case Whittington needed to be

> flown to

> Christus Spohn Hospital Memorial, the area's trauma center, said

> HALO-Flight

> executive director Randy Rowe. Minutes later, Christus Spohn Hospital

> Kleberg in Kingsville was notified that Whittington was en route.

> Both Cheney's office and the Secret Service have said the decision to

> take

> Whittington to Kingsville first was made by medical personnel who

> travel

> with Cheney, who has a history of heart problems.

> " I can't comment to why he wasn't flown, " Zahren said. " The medical

> folks

> that were there would have weighed more into that than our people on

> the

> scene. Decisions were made on their advice at that point. "

> Whittington was taken by ambulance to the Kingsville hospital about

> 6:20

> p.m., Zahren said.

> " It was an ambulance on standby for the vice president's visit, "

> Zahren

> said. " It had been dedicated and it was given up to treat the victim. "

>

> The ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital between 6:45 and 6:50

> p.m.,

> Christus Spohn spokeswoman Wheeler said.

> HALO-Flight was called again at 7:07 p.m. after Spohn Kleberg medical

> personnel decided Whittington needed more advanced treatment.

> " Typically, why we get calls for transfers is for a higher level of

> care or

> a doctor preference, " Rowe said.

> The air ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital at 7:29 p.m. and

> landed

> at the Corpus Christi trauma center at 8:19 p.m., Rowe said.

> Whittington was

> awake and talking during the flight, he said.

> Contact at 886-3716 or HYPERLINK

> mailto:powellj@...

> powellj@...

>

February 17, 2006

A followup question, if I may...

How do we decide which trauma facility to transport (either by ground or air) to

transport a patient to?

In this case, the patient is now at a Level III center in Corpus Christi. Would

a trip to a Level I facility in San been appropriate?

-Wes

Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS

> response

> to Cheney incident

>

> Everything about the entire incident is tainted with politics.....

> medical

> judgments in those situations always come in second... You would

> think,

> sight unseen, that any 78 year old would need the flight... especially

> one

> who has good medical coverage, that is factor sometimes to as the

> system

> works. You know they were trying to keep it quiet.... and you know

> their

> people made the decisions... not the EMS providers.

>

> ExLngHrn@... wrote: Comments on the aeromedical aspect?

>

> -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT-B

> Austin, Texas

>

> Anatomy of medical response to shooting

> Secret Service alerts an air ambulance at 6 p.m. initially

> By Corpus Christi Caller-Times

> February 16, 2006

>

> In the minutes following Vice President Dick Cheney's accidental

> shooting of

> Austin lawyer Harry Whittington, Cheney's medical crew scrambled to

> treat

> the injured man while the Secret Service called for medical backup.

> Whittington, 78, was struck on the face, neck and chest between 5:30

> and

> 5:50 p.m. Saturday while quail hunting at the 50,000-acre Armstrong

> Ranch in

> Kenedy County.

> " That's approximate from the information we have got, " Secret Service

> spokesman Zahren said of the accident's time. " That's coming from

> our

> people that were down there and the local agents from Mc. "

> Whittington had stepped away from Cheney and fellow hunter Pam

> Willeford,

> U.S. ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein, to retrieve downed

> quail,

> and Cheney accidentally sprayed him with birdshot while firing on a

> second

> covey of quail.

> The Secret Service notified HALO-Flight dispatch about 6 p.m., putting

> the

> air ambulance service on standby in case Whittington needed to be

> flown to

> Christus Spohn Hospital Memorial, the area's trauma center, said

> HALO-Flight

> executive director Randy Rowe. Minutes later, Christus Spohn Hospital

> Kleberg in Kingsville was notified that Whittington was en route.

> Both Cheney's office and the Secret Service have said the decision to

> take

> Whittington to Kingsville first was made by medical personnel who

> travel

> with Cheney, who has a history of heart problems.

> " I can't comment to why he wasn't flown, " Zahren said. " The medical

> folks

> that were there would have weighed more into that than our people on

> the

> scene. Decisions were made on their advice at that point. "

> Whittington was taken by ambulance to the Kingsville hospital about

> 6:20

> p.m., Zahren said.

> " It was an ambulance on standby for the vice president's visit, "

> Zahren

> said. " It had been dedicated and it was given up to treat the victim. "

>

> The ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital between 6:45 and 6:50

> p.m.,

> Christus Spohn spokeswoman Wheeler said.

> HALO-Flight was called again at 7:07 p.m. after Spohn Kleberg medical

> personnel decided Whittington needed more advanced treatment.

> " Typically, why we get calls for transfers is for a higher level of

> care or

> a doctor preference, " Rowe said.

> The air ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital at 7:29 p.m. and

> landed

> at the Corpus Christi trauma center at 8:19 p.m., Rowe said.

> Whittington was

> awake and talking during the flight, he said.

> Contact at 886-3716 or HYPERLINK

> mailto:powellj@...

> powellj@...

>

February 17, 2006

Why stop there. Why not medevac to the airport and fly by fixed wing to

Walter or even better Ramstein AFB hospital in Germany? (Tongue

firmly in cheek). When do you say enough is enough?

AJL

________________________________

From: [mailto: ] On

Behalf Of ExLngHrn@...

Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 8:35 AM

To:

Subject: Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS

response to Cheney incident

A followup question, if I may...

How do we decide which trauma facility to transport (either by ground or

air) to transport a patient to?

In this case, the patient is now at a Level III center in Corpus

Christi. Would a trip to a Level I facility in San been

appropriate?

-Wes

Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS

response to Cheney incident

Ok I have read all the post and will reply to Mike's because it was the

last one I read. I will say up front that I would have flown this

gentleman to the closest trauma center. Several questions first.

1. How many pellets in 7.5 or 8 bird shot?

2. Can bird shot kill?

3. Is a human hide tougher to penetrate than a bird, rabbit ect...?

Answer:

1. A bunch

2. Yea it can

3. No it is not

Even though this guy was conscious and talking I would have assumed

immediately that the shot penetrated the chest cavity. Which makes this

man shot multiple times in the chest and neck. The only place this guy

needs to be is in a trauma center immediately. Unless ground can get him

there before the helicopter including any wait time for the bird then he

needs to go by helicopter.

Multiple gunshot wounds to the chest and neck should be reason enough

for any arm chair medic, doctor or lawyer to fly this guy. I think if

this gentleman walks out of the hospital without any problems he is a

very very lucky man. A littler closer or a few more shot hitting vital

organs and this would have been a different story. Everyone in

government is trying to down play this incident in regards to the

patients condition for obvious reasons. They can down play it all they

want but it was very serious.

Lets talk about hunting today. I have been a bird hunter since I was big

enough to pick up a shot gun and pull the trigger. Safety has always

been a big concern and I preach it to my son who is a better bird hunter

than I am. I have been hunting for at least 40 years and have seen minor

lapses in safety for whatever reason or another. None of those have been

because the other hunter did not have safety on his mind while hunting.

Hell that why they call them hunting accidents. If not they would be

called hunting murder or hunting blow your ass up.

I would bet that the Vice President (even though he is a republican) had

every intention of being a safe hunter that day.

At the end of the day here is what you do:

Fly the patient when necessary and practice safe hunting.

Henry

PS. What I would like to see occur on this list server is less dogging

of the helicopter issue and more instruction and or education on when it

is appropriate to fly. Dr. B, Gene and others that people look up to, if

we keep going down this path younger medics that read your post may

interpret that helicopters have no place in EMS and should not be used.

I firmly believe that they have a place and provide a service that we

can take advantage of when it is necessary. Kinda like the baby and bath

water thing.

hatfield wrote:

February 17, 2006

Why stop there. Why not medevac to the airport and fly by fixed wing to

Walter or even better Ramstein AFB hospital in Germany? (Tongue

firmly in cheek). When do you say enough is enough?

AJL

________________________________

From: [mailto: ] On

Behalf Of ExLngHrn@...

Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 8:35 AM

To:

Subject: Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS

response to Cheney incident

A followup question, if I may...

How do we decide which trauma facility to transport (either by ground or

air) to transport a patient to?

In this case, the patient is now at a Level III center in Corpus

Christi. Would a trip to a Level I facility in San been

appropriate?

-Wes

Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS

response to Cheney incident

Ok I have read all the post and will reply to Mike's because it was the

last one I read. I will say up front that I would have flown this

gentleman to the closest trauma center. Several questions first.

1. How many pellets in 7.5 or 8 bird shot?

2. Can bird shot kill?

3. Is a human hide tougher to penetrate than a bird, rabbit ect...?

Answer:

1. A bunch

2. Yea it can

3. No it is not

Even though this guy was conscious and talking I would have assumed

immediately that the shot penetrated the chest cavity. Which makes this

man shot multiple times in the chest and neck. The only place this guy

needs to be is in a trauma center immediately. Unless ground can get him

there before the helicopter including any wait time for the bird then he

needs to go by helicopter.

Multiple gunshot wounds to the chest and neck should be reason enough

for any arm chair medic, doctor or lawyer to fly this guy. I think if

this gentleman walks out of the hospital without any problems he is a

very very lucky man. A littler closer or a few more shot hitting vital

organs and this would have been a different story. Everyone in

government is trying to down play this incident in regards to the

patients condition for obvious reasons. They can down play it all they

want but it was very serious.

Lets talk about hunting today. I have been a bird hunter since I was big

enough to pick up a shot gun and pull the trigger. Safety has always

been a big concern and I preach it to my son who is a better bird hunter

than I am. I have been hunting for at least 40 years and have seen minor

lapses in safety for whatever reason or another. None of those have been

because the other hunter did not have safety on his mind while hunting.

Hell that why they call them hunting accidents. If not they would be

called hunting murder or hunting blow your ass up.

I would bet that the Vice President (even though he is a republican) had

every intention of being a safe hunter that day.

At the end of the day here is what you do:

Fly the patient when necessary and practice safe hunting.

Henry

PS. What I would like to see occur on this list server is less dogging

of the helicopter issue and more instruction and or education on when it

is appropriate to fly. Dr. B, Gene and others that people look up to, if

we keep going down this path younger medics that read your post may

interpret that helicopters have no place in EMS and should not be used.

I firmly believe that they have a place and provide a service that we

can take advantage of when it is necessary. Kinda like the baby and bath

water thing.

hatfield wrote:

February 17, 2006

Why stop there. Why not medevac to the airport and fly by fixed wing to

Walter or even better Ramstein AFB hospital in Germany? (Tongue

firmly in cheek). When do you say enough is enough?

AJL

________________________________

From: [mailto: ] On

Behalf Of ExLngHrn@...

Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 8:35 AM

To:

Subject: Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS

response to Cheney incident

A followup question, if I may...

How do we decide which trauma facility to transport (either by ground or

air) to transport a patient to?

In this case, the patient is now at a Level III center in Corpus

Christi. Would a trip to a Level I facility in San been

appropriate?

-Wes

Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS

response to Cheney incident

Ok I have read all the post and will reply to Mike's because it was the

last one I read. I will say up front that I would have flown this

gentleman to the closest trauma center. Several questions first.

1. How many pellets in 7.5 or 8 bird shot?

2. Can bird shot kill?

3. Is a human hide tougher to penetrate than a bird, rabbit ect...?

Answer:

1. A bunch

2. Yea it can

3. No it is not

Even though this guy was conscious and talking I would have assumed

immediately that the shot penetrated the chest cavity. Which makes this

man shot multiple times in the chest and neck. The only place this guy

needs to be is in a trauma center immediately. Unless ground can get him

there before the helicopter including any wait time for the bird then he

needs to go by helicopter.

Multiple gunshot wounds to the chest and neck should be reason enough

for any arm chair medic, doctor or lawyer to fly this guy. I think if

this gentleman walks out of the hospital without any problems he is a

very very lucky man. A littler closer or a few more shot hitting vital

organs and this would have been a different story. Everyone in

government is trying to down play this incident in regards to the

patients condition for obvious reasons. They can down play it all they

want but it was very serious.

Lets talk about hunting today. I have been a bird hunter since I was big

enough to pick up a shot gun and pull the trigger. Safety has always

been a big concern and I preach it to my son who is a better bird hunter

than I am. I have been hunting for at least 40 years and have seen minor

lapses in safety for whatever reason or another. None of those have been

because the other hunter did not have safety on his mind while hunting.

Hell that why they call them hunting accidents. If not they would be

called hunting murder or hunting blow your ass up.

I would bet that the Vice President (even though he is a republican) had

every intention of being a safe hunter that day.

At the end of the day here is what you do:

Fly the patient when necessary and practice safe hunting.

Henry

PS. What I would like to see occur on this list server is less dogging

of the helicopter issue and more instruction and or education on when it

is appropriate to fly. Dr. B, Gene and others that people look up to, if

we keep going down this path younger medics that read your post may

interpret that helicopters have no place in EMS and should not be used.

I firmly believe that they have a place and provide a service that we

can take advantage of when it is necessary. Kinda like the baby and bath

water thing.

hatfield wrote:

February 17, 2006

>>Dr. B, Gene and others that people look up to, if

we keep going down this path younger medics that read your post may

interpret that helicopters have no place in EMS and should not be used.

<<

Replace helicopters with PASG, Isuprel, intracardiac epi and bicarb

every 10 min and you would be reviving another debate over

unscientifically proven procedures.

With all due respect most hospitals (despite what their staff may state

privately) will advertise that they can treat any given patient at any

given time. If the local county hospital has an emergency room sign in

front of their doors they can stabilize all but the most complex trauma.

Just like the other meds and procedures that I mentioned the role of

helicopter transport will and must change in the future.

AJL

________________________________

From: [mailto: ] On

Behalf Of Henry

Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 8:25 AM

To:

Subject: Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS

response to Cheney incident

Ok I have read all the post and will reply to Mike's because it was the

last one I read. I will say up front that I would have flown this

gentleman to the closest trauma center. Several questions first.

1. How many pellets in 7.5 or 8 bird shot?

2. Can bird shot kill?

3. Is a human hide tougher to penetrate than a bird, rabbit ect...?

Answer:

1. A bunch

2. Yea it can

3. No it is not

Even though this guy was conscious and talking I would have assumed

immediately that the shot penetrated the chest cavity. Which makes this

man shot multiple times in the chest and neck. The only place this guy

needs to be is in a trauma center immediately. Unless ground can get him

there before the helicopter including any wait time for the bird then he

needs to go by helicopter.

Multiple gunshot wounds to the chest and neck should be reason enough

for any arm chair medic, doctor or lawyer to fly this guy. I think if

this gentleman walks out of the hospital without any problems he is a

very very lucky man. A littler closer or a few more shot hitting vital

organs and this would have been a different story. Everyone in

government is trying to down play this incident in regards to the

patients condition for obvious reasons. They can down play it all they

want but it was very serious.

Lets talk about hunting today. I have been a bird hunter since I was big

enough to pick up a shot gun and pull the trigger. Safety has always

been a big concern and I preach it to my son who is a better bird hunter

than I am. I have been hunting for at least 40 years and have seen minor

lapses in safety for whatever reason or another. None of those have been

because the other hunter did not have safety on his mind while hunting.

Hell that why they call them hunting accidents. If not they would be

called hunting murder or hunting blow your ass up.

I would bet that the Vice President (even though he is a republican) had

every intention of being a safe hunter that day.

At the end of the day here is what you do:

Fly the patient when necessary and practice safe hunting.

Henry

PS. What I would like to see occur on this list server is less dogging

of the helicopter issue and more instruction and or education on when it

is appropriate to fly. Dr. B, Gene and others that people look up to, if

we keep going down this path younger medics that read your post may

interpret that helicopters have no place in EMS and should not be used.

I firmly believe that they have a place and provide a service that we

can take advantage of when it is necessary. Kinda like the baby and bath

water thing.

hatfield wrote:

> Because he is 78, he needs to be flown? Because he was hit with

> birdshot, he

> needs to be flown? What about his true medical condition? What of

> that,

> required flight? The fact that he has good medical coverage? This is a

>

> factor when flying?

>

> Mike

>

> And I stand corrected, he was flown.

>

> Hatfield FF/EMT-P

>

> Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS

> response

> to Cheney incident

>

> Everything about the entire incident is tainted with politics.....

> medical

> judgments in those situations always come in second... You would

> think,

> sight unseen, that any 78 year old would need the flight... especially

> one

> who has good medical coverage, that is factor sometimes to as the

> system

> works. You know they were trying to keep it quiet.... and you know

> their

> people made the decisions... not the EMS providers.

>

> ExLngHrn@... wrote: Comments on the aeromedical aspect?

>

> -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT-B

> Austin, Texas

>

> Anatomy of medical response to shooting

> Secret Service alerts an air ambulance at 6 p.m. initially

> By Corpus Christi Caller-Times

> February 16, 2006

>

> In the minutes following Vice President Dick Cheney's accidental

> shooting of

> Austin lawyer Harry Whittington, Cheney's medical crew scrambled to

> treat

> the injured man while the Secret Service called for medical backup.

> Whittington, 78, was struck on the face, neck and chest between 5:30

> and

> 5:50 p.m. Saturday while quail hunting at the 50,000-acre Armstrong

> Ranch in

> Kenedy County.

> " That's approximate from the information we have got, " Secret Service

> spokesman Zahren said of the accident's time. " That's coming from

> our

> people that were down there and the local agents from Mc. "

> Whittington had stepped away from Cheney and fellow hunter Pam

> Willeford,

> U.S. ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein, to retrieve downed

> quail,

> and Cheney accidentally sprayed him with birdshot while firing on a

> second

> covey of quail.

> The Secret Service notified HALO-Flight dispatch about 6 p.m., putting

> the

> air ambulance service on standby in case Whittington needed to be

> flown to

> Christus Spohn Hospital Memorial, the area's trauma center, said

> HALO-Flight

> executive director Randy Rowe. Minutes later, Christus Spohn Hospital

> Kleberg in Kingsville was notified that Whittington was en route.

> Both Cheney's office and the Secret Service have said the decision to

> take

> Whittington to Kingsville first was made by medical personnel who

> travel

> with Cheney, who has a history of heart problems.

> " I can't comment to why he wasn't flown, " Zahren said. " The medical

> folks

> that were there would have weighed more into that than our people on

> the

> scene. Decisions were made on their advice at that point. "

> Whittington was taken by ambulance to the Kingsville hospital about

> 6:20

> p.m., Zahren said.

> " It was an ambulance on standby for the vice president's visit, "

> Zahren

> said. " It had been dedicated and it was given up to treat the victim. "

>

> The ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital between 6:45 and 6:50

> p.m.,

> Christus Spohn spokeswoman Wheeler said.

> HALO-Flight was called again at 7:07 p.m. after Spohn Kleberg medical

> personnel decided Whittington needed more advanced treatment.

> " Typically, why we get calls for transfers is for a higher level of

> care or

> a doctor preference, " Rowe said.

> The air ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital at 7:29 p.m. and

> landed

> at the Corpus Christi trauma center at 8:19 p.m., Rowe said.

> Whittington was

> awake and talking during the flight, he said.

> Contact at 886-3716 or HYPERLINK

> mailto:powellj@...

> powellj@...

>

February 17, 2006

>>Dr. B, Gene and others that people look up to, if

we keep going down this path younger medics that read your post may

interpret that helicopters have no place in EMS and should not be used.

<<

Replace helicopters with PASG, Isuprel, intracardiac epi and bicarb

every 10 min and you would be reviving another debate over

unscientifically proven procedures.

With all due respect most hospitals (despite what their staff may state

privately) will advertise that they can treat any given patient at any

given time. If the local county hospital has an emergency room sign in

front of their doors they can stabilize all but the most complex trauma.

Just like the other meds and procedures that I mentioned the role of

helicopter transport will and must change in the future.

AJL

________________________________

From: [mailto: ] On

Behalf Of Henry

Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 8:25 AM

To:

Subject: Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS

response to Cheney incident

Ok I have read all the post and will reply to Mike's because it was the

last one I read. I will say up front that I would have flown this

gentleman to the closest trauma center. Several questions first.

1. How many pellets in 7.5 or 8 bird shot?

2. Can bird shot kill?

3. Is a human hide tougher to penetrate than a bird, rabbit ect...?

Answer:

1. A bunch

2. Yea it can

3. No it is not

Even though this guy was conscious and talking I would have assumed

immediately that the shot penetrated the chest cavity. Which makes this

man shot multiple times in the chest and neck. The only place this guy

needs to be is in a trauma center immediately. Unless ground can get him

there before the helicopter including any wait time for the bird then he

needs to go by helicopter.

Multiple gunshot wounds to the chest and neck should be reason enough

for any arm chair medic, doctor or lawyer to fly this guy. I think if

this gentleman walks out of the hospital without any problems he is a

very very lucky man. A littler closer or a few more shot hitting vital

organs and this would have been a different story. Everyone in

government is trying to down play this incident in regards to the

patients condition for obvious reasons. They can down play it all they

want but it was very serious.

Lets talk about hunting today. I have been a bird hunter since I was big

enough to pick up a shot gun and pull the trigger. Safety has always

been a big concern and I preach it to my son who is a better bird hunter

than I am. I have been hunting for at least 40 years and have seen minor

lapses in safety for whatever reason or another. None of those have been

because the other hunter did not have safety on his mind while hunting.

Hell that why they call them hunting accidents. If not they would be

called hunting murder or hunting blow your ass up.

I would bet that the Vice President (even though he is a republican) had

every intention of being a safe hunter that day.

At the end of the day here is what you do:

Fly the patient when necessary and practice safe hunting.

Henry

PS. What I would like to see occur on this list server is less dogging

of the helicopter issue and more instruction and or education on when it

is appropriate to fly. Dr. B, Gene and others that people look up to, if

we keep going down this path younger medics that read your post may

interpret that helicopters have no place in EMS and should not be used.

I firmly believe that they have a place and provide a service that we

can take advantage of when it is necessary. Kinda like the baby and bath

water thing.

hatfield wrote:

> Because he is 78, he needs to be flown? Because he was hit with

> birdshot, he

> needs to be flown? What about his true medical condition? What of

> that,

> required flight? The fact that he has good medical coverage? This is a

>

> factor when flying?

>

> Mike

>

> And I stand corrected, he was flown.

>

> Hatfield FF/EMT-P

>

> Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS

> response

> to Cheney incident

>

> Everything about the entire incident is tainted with politics.....

> medical

> judgments in those situations always come in second... You would

> think,

> sight unseen, that any 78 year old would need the flight... especially

> one

> who has good medical coverage, that is factor sometimes to as the

> system

> works. You know they were trying to keep it quiet.... and you know

> their

> people made the decisions... not the EMS providers.

>

> ExLngHrn@... wrote: Comments on the aeromedical aspect?

>

> -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT-B

> Austin, Texas

>

> Anatomy of medical response to shooting

> Secret Service alerts an air ambulance at 6 p.m. initially

> By Corpus Christi Caller-Times

> February 16, 2006

>

> In the minutes following Vice President Dick Cheney's accidental

> shooting of

> Austin lawyer Harry Whittington, Cheney's medical crew scrambled to

> treat

> the injured man while the Secret Service called for medical backup.

> Whittington, 78, was struck on the face, neck and chest between 5:30

> and

> 5:50 p.m. Saturday while quail hunting at the 50,000-acre Armstrong

> Ranch in

> Kenedy County.

> " That's approximate from the information we have got, " Secret Service

> spokesman Zahren said of the accident's time. " That's coming from

> our

> people that were down there and the local agents from Mc. "

> Whittington had stepped away from Cheney and fellow hunter Pam

> Willeford,

> U.S. ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein, to retrieve downed

> quail,

> and Cheney accidentally sprayed him with birdshot while firing on a

> second

> covey of quail.

> The Secret Service notified HALO-Flight dispatch about 6 p.m., putting

> the

> air ambulance service on standby in case Whittington needed to be

> flown to

> Christus Spohn Hospital Memorial, the area's trauma center, said

> HALO-Flight

> executive director Randy Rowe. Minutes later, Christus Spohn Hospital

> Kleberg in Kingsville was notified that Whittington was en route.

> Both Cheney's office and the Secret Service have said the decision to

> take

> Whittington to Kingsville first was made by medical personnel who

> travel

> with Cheney, who has a history of heart problems.

> " I can't comment to why he wasn't flown, " Zahren said. " The medical

> folks

> that were there would have weighed more into that than our people on

> the

> scene. Decisions were made on their advice at that point. "

> Whittington was taken by ambulance to the Kingsville hospital about

> 6:20

> p.m., Zahren said.

> " It was an ambulance on standby for the vice president's visit, "

> Zahren

> said. " It had been dedicated and it was given up to treat the victim. "

>

> The ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital between 6:45 and 6:50

> p.m.,

> Christus Spohn spokeswoman Wheeler said.

> HALO-Flight was called again at 7:07 p.m. after Spohn Kleberg medical

> personnel decided Whittington needed more advanced treatment.

> " Typically, why we get calls for transfers is for a higher level of

> care or

> a doctor preference, " Rowe said.

> The air ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital at 7:29 p.m. and

> landed

> at the Corpus Christi trauma center at 8:19 p.m., Rowe said.

> Whittington was

> awake and talking during the flight, he said.

> Contact at 886-3716 or HYPERLINK

> mailto:powellj@...

> powellj@...

>

February 17, 2006

>>Dr. B, Gene and others that people look up to, if

we keep going down this path younger medics that read your post may

interpret that helicopters have no place in EMS and should not be used.

<<

Replace helicopters with PASG, Isuprel, intracardiac epi and bicarb

every 10 min and you would be reviving another debate over

unscientifically proven procedures.

With all due respect most hospitals (despite what their staff may state

privately) will advertise that they can treat any given patient at any

given time. If the local county hospital has an emergency room sign in

front of their doors they can stabilize all but the most complex trauma.

Just like the other meds and procedures that I mentioned the role of

helicopter transport will and must change in the future.

AJL

________________________________

From: [mailto: ] On

Behalf Of Henry

Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 8:25 AM

To:

Subject: Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS

response to Cheney incident

Ok I have read all the post and will reply to Mike's because it was the

last one I read. I will say up front that I would have flown this

gentleman to the closest trauma center. Several questions first.

1. How many pellets in 7.5 or 8 bird shot?

2. Can bird shot kill?

3. Is a human hide tougher to penetrate than a bird, rabbit ect...?

Answer:

1. A bunch

2. Yea it can

3. No it is not

Even though this guy was conscious and talking I would have assumed

immediately that the shot penetrated the chest cavity. Which makes this

man shot multiple times in the chest and neck. The only place this guy

needs to be is in a trauma center immediately. Unless ground can get him

there before the helicopter including any wait time for the bird then he

needs to go by helicopter.

Multiple gunshot wounds to the chest and neck should be reason enough

for any arm chair medic, doctor or lawyer to fly this guy. I think if

this gentleman walks out of the hospital without any problems he is a

very very lucky man. A littler closer or a few more shot hitting vital

organs and this would have been a different story. Everyone in

government is trying to down play this incident in regards to the

patients condition for obvious reasons. They can down play it all they

want but it was very serious.

Lets talk about hunting today. I have been a bird hunter since I was big

enough to pick up a shot gun and pull the trigger. Safety has always

been a big concern and I preach it to my son who is a better bird hunter

than I am. I have been hunting for at least 40 years and have seen minor

lapses in safety for whatever reason or another. None of those have been

because the other hunter did not have safety on his mind while hunting.

Hell that why they call them hunting accidents. If not they would be

called hunting murder or hunting blow your ass up.

I would bet that the Vice President (even though he is a republican) had

every intention of being a safe hunter that day.

At the end of the day here is what you do:

Fly the patient when necessary and practice safe hunting.

Henry

PS. What I would like to see occur on this list server is less dogging

of the helicopter issue and more instruction and or education on when it

is appropriate to fly. Dr. B, Gene and others that people look up to, if

we keep going down this path younger medics that read your post may

interpret that helicopters have no place in EMS and should not be used.

I firmly believe that they have a place and provide a service that we

can take advantage of when it is necessary. Kinda like the baby and bath

water thing.

hatfield wrote:

> Because he is 78, he needs to be flown? Because he was hit with

> birdshot, he

> needs to be flown? What about his true medical condition? What of

> that,

> required flight? The fact that he has good medical coverage? This is a

>

> factor when flying?

>

> Mike

>

> And I stand corrected, he was flown.

>

> Hatfield FF/EMT-P

>

> Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS

> response

> to Cheney incident

>

> Everything about the entire incident is tainted with politics.....

> medical

> judgments in those situations always come in second... You would

> think,

> sight unseen, that any 78 year old would need the flight... especially

> one

> who has good medical coverage, that is factor sometimes to as the

> system

> works. You know they were trying to keep it quiet.... and you know

> their

> people made the decisions... not the EMS providers.

>

> ExLngHrn@... wrote: Comments on the aeromedical aspect?

>

> -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT-B

> Austin, Texas

>

> Anatomy of medical response to shooting

> Secret Service alerts an air ambulance at 6 p.m. initially

> By Corpus Christi Caller-Times

> February 16, 2006

>

> In the minutes following Vice President Dick Cheney's accidental

> shooting of

> Austin lawyer Harry Whittington, Cheney's medical crew scrambled to

> treat

> the injured man while the Secret Service called for medical backup.

> Whittington, 78, was struck on the face, neck and chest between 5:30

> and

> 5:50 p.m. Saturday while quail hunting at the 50,000-acre Armstrong

> Ranch in

> Kenedy County.

> " That's approximate from the information we have got, " Secret Service

> spokesman Zahren said of the accident's time. " That's coming from

> our

> people that were down there and the local agents from Mc. "

> Whittington had stepped away from Cheney and fellow hunter Pam

> Willeford,

> U.S. ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein, to retrieve downed

> quail,

> and Cheney accidentally sprayed him with birdshot while firing on a

> second

> covey of quail.

> The Secret Service notified HALO-Flight dispatch about 6 p.m., putting

> the

> air ambulance service on standby in case Whittington needed to be

> flown to

> Christus Spohn Hospital Memorial, the area's trauma center, said

> HALO-Flight

> executive director Randy Rowe. Minutes later, Christus Spohn Hospital

> Kleberg in Kingsville was notified that Whittington was en route.

> Both Cheney's office and the Secret Service have said the decision to

> take

> Whittington to Kingsville first was made by medical personnel who

> travel

> with Cheney, who has a history of heart problems.

> " I can't comment to why he wasn't flown, " Zahren said. " The medical

> folks

> that were there would have weighed more into that than our people on

> the

> scene. Decisions were made on their advice at that point. "

> Whittington was taken by ambulance to the Kingsville hospital about

> 6:20

> p.m., Zahren said.

> " It was an ambulance on standby for the vice president's visit, "

> Zahren

> said. " It had been dedicated and it was given up to treat the victim. "

>

> The ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital between 6:45 and 6:50

> p.m.,

> Christus Spohn spokeswoman Wheeler said.

> HALO-Flight was called again at 7:07 p.m. after Spohn Kleberg medical

> personnel decided Whittington needed more advanced treatment.

> " Typically, why we get calls for transfers is for a higher level of

> care or

> a doctor preference, " Rowe said.

> The air ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital at 7:29 p.m. and

> landed

> at the Corpus Christi trauma center at 8:19 p.m., Rowe said.

> Whittington was

> awake and talking during the flight, he said.

> Contact at 886-3716 or HYPERLINK

> mailto:powellj@...

> powellj@...

>

February 17, 2006

This is absoluely correct...The press wants to be able to say that

Cheney killed a man...it's political crap..

If this had been a friend of mine and me this wouldn't even be an

issue.

The man did and is receiving excellant care and is still alive

whether he was transported by air or ground. He was transported by

both and is now in a level III facility. Whatever decisions were

made were obviously beneficial to the patient. The bullet moving

into his coronary system happened well after he'd been in the

hospital and reported by the press as " stable and in good condition " .

The ONLY reason this has become so public is because the press wants

to crucify Cheney to the wall, and Bush by proxy.

HIPPA QUESTION - Cheney couldn't have given out info on the incident

prior to getting approval from the pt himself cause it would have

violated the pt's rights...am I correct? or am I wrong?

Comments on the aeromedical aspect?

> >

> > -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT-B

> > Austin, Texas

> >

> > Anatomy of medical response to shooting

> > Secret Service alerts an air ambulance at 6 p.m. initially

> > By Corpus Christi Caller-Times

> > February 16, 2006

> >

> > In the minutes following Vice President Dick Cheney's accidental

shooting of

> > Austin lawyer Harry Whittington, Cheney's medical crew scrambled

to treat

> > the injured man while the Secret Service called for medical

backup.

> > Whittington, 78, was struck on the face, neck and chest between

5:30 and

> > 5:50 p.m. Saturday while quail hunting at the 50,000-acre

Armstrong Ranch in

> > Kenedy County.

> > " That's approximate from the information we have got, " Secret

Service

> > spokesman Zahren said of the accident's time. " That's

coming from our people

> > that were down there and the local agents from Mc. "

> > Whittington had stepped away from Cheney and fellow hunter Pam

Willeford,

> > U.S. ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein, to retrieve

downed quail, and

> > Cheney accidentally sprayed him with birdshot while firing on a

second covey

> > of quail.

> > The Secret Service notified HALO-Flight dispatch about 6 p.m.,

putting the

> > air ambulance service on standby in case Whittington needed to

be flown to

> > Christus Spohn Hospital Memorial, the area's trauma center, said

HALO-Flight

> > executive director Randy Rowe. Minutes later, Christus Spohn

Hospital Kleberg in

> > Kingsville was notified that Whittington was en route.

> > Both Cheney's office and the Secret Service have said the

decision to take

> > Whittington to Kingsville first was made by medical personnel

who travel with

> > Cheney, who has a history of heart problems.

> > " I can't comment to why he wasn't flown, " Zahren said. " The

medical folks

> > that were there would have weighed more into that than our

people on the scene.

> > Decisions were made on their advice at that point. "

> > Whittington was taken by ambulance to the Kingsville hospital

about 6:20

> > p.m., Zahren said.

> > " It was an ambulance on standby for the vice president's visit, "

Zahren

> > said. " It had been dedicated and it was given up to treat the

victim. "

> > The ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital between 6:45

and 6:50 p.m.,

> > Christus Spohn spokeswoman Wheeler said.

> > HALO-Flight was called again at 7:07 p.m. after Spohn Kleberg

medical

> > personnel decided Whittington needed more advanced treatment.

> > " Typically, why we get calls for transfers is for a higher level

of care or

> > a doctor preference, " Rowe said.

> > The air ambulance arrived at the Kingsville hospital at 7:29

p.m. and landed

> > at the Corpus Christi trauma center at 8:19 p.m., Rowe said.

Whittington was

> > awake and talking during the flight, he said.

> > Contact at 886-3716 or HYPERLINK mailto:powellj@...

> > powellj@...

> >

February 17, 2006

HIPAA restrictions would not apply to Cheney because he is

not a medical person and the victim was not his patient.

Maxine Pate

hire-Pattison EMS

---- Original message ----

>Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 15:51:17 -0000

>

>HIPPA QUESTION - Cheney couldnâ€˜t have given out info on the

incident

>prior to getting approval from the pt himself cause it would

have

>violated the ptâ€˜s rights...am I correct? or am I wrong?

>

February 17, 2006

Salavdor, how would helicopter transport helped your motorcycle accident

patient? Would it have healed his spinal cord? Was there any treatment

necessary that required transport where a few minutes makes a difference.

There is a risk in everything, from typing on this computer to skydiving.

You always have to measure the risk against any benefit. The risk of ground

ambulance transport while real, is better that the risk of air ambulance

transport. Even transport by donkey cart has risk-you have to measure them.

_____

From: [mailto: ] On

Behalf Of salvador capuchino

Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 9:17 AM

To:

Subject: Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS response

to Cheney incident

Good answer Henry. I agree. I would have flown him

out as well considering that Armstrong is at least 1

hour away from any hospital north or south. This is a

trauma patient and as per RAC protocol the mechanism

is significant enough to warrant a bird. Some medics

from a particular service have been trained and taught

that they can handle any call no matter how bad it is

and that if you call a bird you are a wimp. That in

my opinion is very wrong. Some of these guys have

gone to work for a rural service and learned the hard

way that you simply cannot think that way when you are

in the middle of nowhere. When I used to work for

that service a supervisor refused to allow me to fly

out a teenager from a motorcycle accident at a dirt

bike track. The kid had paralysis from the neck down

after the bike landed on his back. Apparently the kid

was thrown off the bike in the air. The location was

at least 15-20 minutes from the nearest level III

trauma center.

Salvador Capuchino Jr

EMT-P

--- Henry wrote:

> Ok I have read all the post and will reply to Mike's

> because it was the

> last one I read. I will say up front that I would

> have flown this

> gentleman to the closest trauma center. Several

> questions first.

> 1. How many pellets in 7.5 or 8 bird shot?

> 2. Can bird shot kill?

> 3. Is a human hide tougher to penetrate than a bird,

> rabbit ect...?

>

> Answer:

> 1. A bunch

> 2. Yea it can

> 3. No it is not

>

> Even though this guy was conscious and talking I

> would have assumed

> immediately that the shot penetrated the chest

> cavity. Which makes this

> man shot multiple times in the chest and neck. The

> only place this guy

> needs to be is in a trauma center immediately.

> Unless ground can get him

> there before the helicopter including any wait time

> for the bird then he

> needs to go by helicopter.

>

> Multiple gunshot wounds to the chest and neck should

> be reason enough

> for any arm chair medic, doctor or lawyer to fly

> this guy. I think if

> this gentleman walks out of the hospital without any

> problems he is a

> very very lucky man. A littler closer or a few more

> shot hitting vital

> organs and this would have been a different story.

> Everyone in

> government is trying to down play this incident in

> regards to the

> patients condition for obvious reasons. They can

> down play it all they

> want but it was very serious.

>

> Lets talk about hunting today. I have been a bird

> hunter since I was big

> enough to pick up a shot gun and pull the trigger.

> Safety has always

> been a big concern and I preach it to my son who is

> a better bird hunter

> than I am. I have been hunting for at least 40 years

> and have seen minor

> lapses in safety for whatever reason or another.

> None of those have been

> because the other hunter did not have safety on his

> mind while hunting.

> Hell that why they call them hunting accidents. If

> not they would be

> called hunting murder or hunting blow your ass up.

>

> I would bet that the Vice President (even though he

> is a republican) had

> every intention of being a safe hunter that day.

>

> At the end of the day here is what you do:

>

> Fly the patient when necessary and practice safe

> hunting.

>

> Henry

>

> PS. What I would like to see occur on this list

> server is less dogging

> of the helicopter issue and more instruction and or

> education on when it

> is appropriate to fly. Dr. B, Gene and others that

> people look up to, if

> we keep going down this path younger medics that

> read your post may

> interpret that helicopters have no place in EMS and

> should not be used.

> I firmly believe that they have a place and provide

> a service that we

> can take advantage of when it is necessary. Kinda

> like the baby and bath

> water thing.

>

> hatfield wrote:

>

> > Because he is 78, he needs to be flown? Because

> he was hit with

> > birdshot, he

> > needs to be flown? What about his true medical

> condition? What of

> > that,

> > required flight? The fact that he has good medical

> coverage? This is a

> >

> > factor when flying?

> >

> > Mike

> >

> > And I stand corrected, he was flown.

> >

> > Hatfield FF/EMT-P

> >

> > Re: Corpus Christi newspaper

> reports on EMS

> > response

> > to Cheney incident

> >

> > Everything about the entire incident is tainted

> with politics.....

> > medical

> > judgments in those situations always come in

> second... You would

> > think,

> > sight unseen, that any 78 year old would need the

> flight... especially

> > one

> > who has good medical coverage, that is factor

> sometimes to as the

> > system

> > works. You know they were trying to keep it

> quiet.... and you know

> > their

> > people made the decisions... not the EMS

> providers.

> >

> > ExLngHrn@... wrote: Comments on the

> aeromedical aspect?

> >

> > -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT-B

> > Austin, Texas

> >

> > Anatomy of medical response to shooting

> > Secret Service alerts an air ambulance at 6 p.m.

> initially

> > By Corpus Christi Caller-Times

> > February 16, 2006

> >

> > In the minutes following Vice President Dick

> Cheney's accidental

> > shooting of

> > Austin lawyer Harry Whittington, Cheney's medical

> crew scrambled to

> > treat

> > the injured man while the Secret Service called

> for medical backup.

> > Whittington, 78, was struck on the face, neck and

> chest between 5:30

> > and

> > 5:50 p.m. Saturday while quail hunting at the

> 50,000-acre Armstrong

> > Ranch in

> > Kenedy County.

> > " That's approximate from the information we have

> got, " Secret Service

> > spokesman Zahren said of the accident's time.

> " That's coming from

> > our

> > people that were down there and the local agents

> from Mc. "

> > Whittington had stepped away from Cheney and

> fellow hunter Pam

> > Willeford,

> > U.S. ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein,

> to retrieve downed

> > quail,

> > and Cheney accidentally sprayed him with birdshot

> while firing on a

> > second

> > covey of quail.

> > The Secret Service notified HALO-Flight dispatch

> about 6 p.m., putting

> > the

> > air ambulance service on standby in case

> Whittington needed to be

> > flown to

> > Christus Spohn Hospital Memorial, the area's

> trauma center, said

> > HALO-Flight

>

=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________

February 17, 2006

Salavdor, how would helicopter transport helped your motorcycle accident

patient? Would it have healed his spinal cord? Was there any treatment

necessary that required transport where a few minutes makes a difference.

There is a risk in everything, from typing on this computer to skydiving.

You always have to measure the risk against any benefit. The risk of ground

ambulance transport while real, is better that the risk of air ambulance

transport. Even transport by donkey cart has risk-you have to measure them.

_____

From: [mailto: ] On

Behalf Of salvador capuchino

Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 9:17 AM

To:

Subject: Re: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS response

to Cheney incident

Good answer Henry. I agree. I would have flown him

out as well considering that Armstrong is at least 1

hour away from any hospital north or south. This is a

trauma patient and as per RAC protocol the mechanism

is significant enough to warrant a bird. Some medics

from a particular service have been trained and taught

that they can handle any call no matter how bad it is

and that if you call a bird you are a wimp. That in

my opinion is very wrong. Some of these guys have

gone to work for a rural service and learned the hard

way that you simply cannot think that way when you are

in the middle of nowhere. When I used to work for

that service a supervisor refused to allow me to fly

out a teenager from a motorcycle accident at a dirt

bike track. The kid had paralysis from the neck down

after the bike landed on his back. Apparently the kid

was thrown off the bike in the air. The location was

at least 15-20 minutes from the nearest level III

trauma center.

Salvador Capuchino Jr

EMT-P

--- Henry wrote:

> Ok I have read all the post and will reply to Mike's

> because it was the

> last one I read. I will say up front that I would

> have flown this

> gentleman to the closest trauma center. Several

> questions first.

> 1. How many pellets in 7.5 or 8 bird shot?

> 2. Can bird shot kill?

> 3. Is a human hide tougher to penetrate than a bird,

> rabbit ect...?

>

> Answer:

> 1. A bunch

> 2. Yea it can

> 3. No it is not

>

> Even though this guy was conscious and talking I

> would have assumed

> immediately that the shot penetrated the chest

> cavity. Which makes this

> man shot multiple times in the chest and neck. The

> only place this guy

> needs to be is in a trauma center immediately.

> Unless ground can get him

> there before the helicopter including any wait time

> for the bird then he

> needs to go by helicopter.

>

> Multiple gunshot wounds to the chest and neck should

> be reason enough

> for any arm chair medic, doctor or lawyer to fly

> this guy. I think if

> this gentleman walks out of the hospital without any

> problems he is a

> very very lucky man. A littler closer or a few more

> shot hitting vital

> organs and this would have been a different story.

> Everyone in

> government is trying to down play this incident in

> regards to the

> patients condition for obvious reasons. They can

> down play it all they

> want but it was very serious.

>

> Lets talk about hunting today. I have been a bird

> hunter since I was big

> enough to pick up a shot gun and pull the trigger.

> Safety has always

> been a big concern and I preach it to my son who is

> a better bird hunter

> than I am. I have been hunting for at least 40 years

> and have seen minor

> lapses in safety for whatever reason or another.

> None of those have been

> because the other hunter did not have safety on his

> mind while hunting.

> Hell that why they call them hunting accidents. If

> not they would be

> called hunting murder or hunting blow your ass up.

>

> I would bet that the Vice President (even though he

> is a republican) had

> every intention of being a safe hunter that day.

>

> At the end of the day here is what you do:

>

> Fly the patient when necessary and practice safe

> hunting.

>

> Henry

>

> PS. What I would like to see occur on this list

> server is less dogging

> of the helicopter issue and more instruction and or

> education on when it

> is appropriate to fly. Dr. B, Gene and others that

> people look up to, if

> we keep going down this path younger medics that

> read your post may

> interpret that helicopters have no place in EMS and

> should not be used.

> I firmly believe that they have a place and provide

> a service that we

> can take advantage of when it is necessary. Kinda

> like the baby and bath

> water thing.

>

> hatfield wrote:

>

> > Because he is 78, he needs to be flown? Because

> he was hit with

> > birdshot, he

> > needs to be flown? What about his true medical

> condition? What of

> > that,

> > required flight? The fact that he has good medical

> coverage? This is a

> >

> > factor when flying?

> >

> > Mike

> >

> > And I stand corrected, he was flown.

> >

> > Hatfield FF/EMT-P

> >

> > Re: Corpus Christi newspaper

> reports on EMS

> > response

> > to Cheney incident

> >

> > Everything about the entire incident is tainted

> with politics.....

> > medical

> > judgments in those situations always come in

> second... You would

> > think,

> > sight unseen, that any 78 year old would need the

> flight... especially

> > one

> > who has good medical coverage, that is factor

> sometimes to as the

> > system

> > works. You know they were trying to keep it

> quiet.... and you know

> > their

> > people made the decisions... not the EMS

> providers.

> >

> > ExLngHrn@... wrote: Comments on the

> aeromedical aspect?

> >

> > -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT-B

> > Austin, Texas

> >

> > Anatomy of medical response to shooting

> > Secret Service alerts an air ambulance at 6 p.m.

> initially

> > By Corpus Christi Caller-Times

> > February 16, 2006

> >

> > In the minutes following Vice President Dick

> Cheney's accidental

> > shooting of

> > Austin lawyer Harry Whittington, Cheney's medical

> crew scrambled to

> > treat

> > the injured man while the Secret Service called

> for medical backup.

> > Whittington, 78, was struck on the face, neck and

> chest between 5:30

> > and

> > 5:50 p.m. Saturday while quail hunting at the

> 50,000-acre Armstrong

> > Ranch in

> > Kenedy County.

> > " That's approximate from the information we have

> got, " Secret Service

> > spokesman Zahren said of the accident's time.

> " That's coming from

> > our

> > people that were down there and the local agents

> from Mc. "

> > Whittington had stepped away from Cheney and

> fellow hunter Pam

> > Willeford,

> > U.S. ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein,

> to retrieve downed

> > quail,

> > and Cheney accidentally sprayed him with birdshot

> while firing on a

> > second

> > covey of quail.

> > The Secret Service notified HALO-Flight dispatch

> about 6 p.m., putting

> > the

> > air ambulance service on standby in case

> Whittington needed to be

> > flown to

> > Christus Spohn Hospital Memorial, the area's

> trauma center, said

> > HALO-Flight

>

=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________

February 17, 2006

Because the surgeons are very slow to change their dogma. The ATLS course

has gotten so bad that there over 100 physicians signed a petition to get

them to update an area of controversy and they refused. It takes time get

the necessary articles into the journals. For example, our helicopter

meta-analysis was accepted in June and has yet to publish. The system moves

slow and, from some standpoints, that is good. Look at the changes that have

occurred: abandonment of the MAST, permissive hypotension, selective spinal

immobilization. It took time to get these in the mainstream and it will take

time to address the helicopter issue. Conversations like this help. I have

been told several times that changes have been made in some EMS systems just

based upon a topic we brought up at a conference. They researched it,

agreed, and changed their practice. The problem there is now it is a for

profit industry and everybody wants a piece of the pie. Challenge them and

they wrap themselves in the flag citing capitalism, freedom, and so on.

While that is right, why don't more of them put their helicopters where

needed like in small towns?

BEB

_____

From: [mailto: ] On

Behalf Of Danny

Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 11:26 AM

To:

Subject: RE: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on EMS response

to Cheney incident

So why if " speed " is not essential to good patient outcome are students from

the ECA thru Paramedic level still being taught speed to a trauma facility

is best?

If we are to change the attitude we must change the teaching.

What is the answer to making EMT's of all levels better clinicians?

Because that is the only way understand how to properly use the resources we

have.

" Bledsoe, DO " wrote:

There is a role of helicopters in EMS-but very limited. In the overall

scheme of things, speed makes a difference in probably less than 1% of

patients. We are working to revise the usage criteria for helicopters.

Mechanism of injury, save for ejection from the vehicle, are poor predictors

of needs a helicopter (or trauma center). Instead, physiologic criteria

should be used.

When you look at the trauma survival rate in the US, it is no better that

other industrialized countries that do not use helicopters to the same

degree (Canada, Israel, Australia, New Zealand, England). First, in a study

we have coming soon in the Journal of Trauma 65% of all trauma patients in

the study (n=36,350) had minor injuries by TS, TRISS, RTS, and ISS. Thus, we

know that 2 our of 3 trauma scene patients currently being flown are not

critical. There is absolutely NO evidence to show that interhospital

transfer of patients by helicopter improves outcome. The burn surgeons and

the burn centers keep writing " don't send burn patients by helicopter " but

we do. Once a person is burned, they are burned. Neither the speed or the

mystique of a helicopter will improve their condition.

Medicare and the insurance companies are starting to deny payments more and

more on non-essential helicopter usage. Believe it or not, there are

non-air-conditioned helicopters in Texas. Would TDSHS credential one of

your ambulances that was not air conditioned.

And then there is the safety issue. The increased number of medical

helicopters (now approaching 800 in the US) has diluted out the

pilot/nurse/paramedic crew. Coupled with the retirement of Vietnam-era

pilots, this has caused the air ambulance industry to continually lower

pilot qualifications. So, as we saw in Indiana a few weeks ago, bad

decisions are being made despite NTSB and FAA warnings-all in the name of

profit. In terms of care, we saw little if any litigation over helicopter

EMS. In the last year I have been contacted by lawyers here in Texas suing

two Texas private EMS providers over unrecognized esophageal intubations

following RSI. I received a similar inquiry two weeks ago from another state

regarding a helicopter quality of care issue.

Based on current stats, we will crash around 20 helicopters in 2006 and kill

12-15 people and injure quite a few more. Dr. Baker, in a current

ls of Emergency Medicine article, wrote, " In addition to concern for

survival of patients is the occupational risk to pilots, paramedics, and

flight nurses. Based on estimates of the numbers of crewmembers and crew

deaths during 1995 to 2001,the death rate of helicopter EMS crewmembers was

75 per 100,000 person-years, 16 times the occupational injury death rate of

4.6 for all US workers during this period. reported an average rate

during 2000 to 2004 of 1.8 fatal helicopter EMS crashes per 100,000 flight

hours. At this rate, a helicopter EMS pilot or crewmember flying 20 hours

per week during a 20-year career would have a 37% chance of being in a fatal

crash (20X52X20X1.8/100,000=37%).

Looking at this another way (deaths per 100,000 person years):

Average worker = 4.6

Firefighting = 11

General EMS = 12

Police Work = 13

Farming = 26

Mining = 27

Medical Helicopter = 75

Alaska Crab Fishing = 77

*Source: s Hopkins University School of Public Health

Note too that these numbers are pre-2001. The incidence of crashes has

increased since 2001 significantly and is probably higher.

We need to find a way to use this expensive and dangerous resource so that

it will truly help those who stand to benefit from it without placing others

at risk. If you are really interested, see my PowerPoint at:

http://www.bryanbledsoe.com/handouts.html and clink on the PowerPoint icon

for Medical Helicopter Accidents.

February 17, 2006