Re: Fascinating study on Cluster B pds RE psychopathy

[Guest guest]

Great article, Annie. My nada also has all those traits - borderline, NPD,

and histrionic. And my T has on several occaisions suggested she might be a

sociopath. She said this after hearing how my mother would repeat gory

details of car accidents and such to me before I was even in kindergarten.

Shudder. I teach 9 year olds as a volunteer, and I think I'd murder someone

who did that to them. T said the fact that she took such pleasure in other

people's suffering suggested sociopath to her.

I would have to agree. Other people's pain pretty much made her world go

round.

On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 3:26 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article

> promoting the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related

> to psychopathy than previously considered.

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother

> seems to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from

> time to time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap

> between the diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that

> these traits and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of

> psychopathy.

>

> Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

>

>

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

>

> A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a

> subscriber to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't

> been able to locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about

> it:

>

> " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

> psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

> previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

>

> Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

> Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

>

> Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE

> my wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

> " psychopathy lite " ?

>

> It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

> well.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Great article, Annie. My nada also has all those traits - borderline, NPD,

and histrionic. And my T has on several occaisions suggested she might be a

sociopath. She said this after hearing how my mother would repeat gory

details of car accidents and such to me before I was even in kindergarten.

Shudder. I teach 9 year olds as a volunteer, and I think I'd murder someone

who did that to them. T said the fact that she took such pleasure in other

people's suffering suggested sociopath to her.

I would have to agree. Other people's pain pretty much made her world go

round.

On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 3:26 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article

> promoting the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related

> to psychopathy than previously considered.

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother

> seems to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from

> time to time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap

> between the diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that

> these traits and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of

> psychopathy.

>

> Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

>

>

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

>

> A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a

> subscriber to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't

> been able to locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about

> it:

>

> " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

> psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

> previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

>

> Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

> Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

>

> Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE

> my wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

> " psychopathy lite " ?

>

> It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

> well.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Great article, Annie. My nada also has all those traits - borderline, NPD,

and histrionic. And my T has on several occaisions suggested she might be a

sociopath. She said this after hearing how my mother would repeat gory

details of car accidents and such to me before I was even in kindergarten.

Shudder. I teach 9 year olds as a volunteer, and I think I'd murder someone

who did that to them. T said the fact that she took such pleasure in other

people's suffering suggested sociopath to her.

I would have to agree. Other people's pain pretty much made her world go

round.

On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 3:26 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article

> promoting the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related

> to psychopathy than previously considered.

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother

> seems to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from

> time to time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap

> between the diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that

> these traits and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of

> psychopathy.

>

> Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

>

>

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

>

> A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a

> subscriber to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't

> been able to locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about

> it:

>

> " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

> psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

> previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

>

> Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

> Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

>

> Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE

> my wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

> " psychopathy lite " ?

>

> It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

> well.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wow! Just Wow! What cracks me up is how defensive and all goody two shoes

people go on me when I mention ABUSE, DANGEROUS and NPD or BPD in a sentence as

my own experience calling me inappropriately judgemental and telling me I need

to take accountability for my part of the abuse. Which is???? UGH. I had two

VERY, VERY ANTI-SOCIAL and DANGEROUS people in my life. They are so flipping

charming and good at hiding their psychoses - Calling them unsafe is being

really polite. One was my husband (NPD) the other is so clearly my BPD nada.

She is way anti-social in her behavior...manipulative as the day is long. When

i read these articles I always sigh thinking " Tell me what I don't know. " Some

BPDs and NPDs are worse than rattle snakes and in my opinion always correctly

judged at least emotionally dangerous.

I wish more of these would be more broadly published! Thank you so much for

sharing this. I plan to educate the unwary that they better get themselves some

outside assistance if they think they are going to tango with a BPD or NPD and I

no longer care who calls me judgmental (hehehe, the only ones that would are

bleeding heart out of touch new agers or the NPDs or BPDs themselves).

Any way, thanks again!

>

> Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article promoting

the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related to

psychopathy than previously considered.

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother seems

to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from time to

time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap between the

diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that these traits

and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of psychopathy.

>

> Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

>

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

>

> A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a subscriber

to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't been able to

locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about it:

>

> " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

>

> Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

>

> Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE my

wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

" psychopathy lite " ?

>

> It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

well.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

You're welcome!

I think that mental illnesses including the Cluster B personality disorders

occur in a spectrum of severity (much in the same way that our sense of sight

exists within a range of functionality, from excellent vision to total

blindness.)

I agree with you that some with bpd and some " bpd apologists " do not appear to

want to acknowledge that there IS a spectrum of severity and that some

individuals with bpd do have it in an extreme and dangerous form that includes

psychopathic behaviors.

These folks apparently do not want to admit that some with borderline pd engage

in covert child abuse and neglect, stalking, harassing, identity theft,

destruction of property, physical violence / threatening physical violence,

perpetrating smear campaigns in an attempt to destroy their target's good

reputation (libel and slander), making false claims of child abuse with Child

Protective Services, making false claims of elder abuse, etc.

Lying, manipulating, theft, making false claims, physical violence, and child

abuse/molestation/neglect *are* antisocial, psychopathic behaviors.

My stance is: address the behaviors. If a person's behaviors are destructive

and dangerous to themselves or to others, *then deal with it appropriately.*

Protect yourself and your family.

I believe that when these things can be discussed openly and honestly, that's

when real progress can happen. But when the discussion of dangerous and

destructive behaviors is banned or condemned as " insensitive " , " judgmental " or

" showing a lack of compassion " ; when dangerous or destructive behaviors are

ignored, minimized, explained away, " forgiven " or otherwise not openly

addressed... then no progress can be made; then only more abuse and more silent

suffering on the part of the children of such individuals will continue.

-Annie

>

> Wow! Just Wow! What cracks me up is how defensive and all goody two shoes

people go on me when I mention ABUSE, DANGEROUS and NPD or BPD in a sentence as

my own experience calling me inappropriately judgemental and telling me I need

to take accountability for my part of the abuse. Which is???? UGH. I had two

VERY, VERY ANTI-SOCIAL and DANGEROUS people in my life. They are so flipping

charming and good at hiding their psychoses - Calling them unsafe is being

really polite. One was my husband (NPD) the other is so clearly my BPD nada.

She is way anti-social in her behavior...manipulative as the day is long. When

i read these articles I always sigh thinking " Tell me what I don't know. " Some

BPDs and NPDs are worse than rattle snakes and in my opinion always correctly

judged at least emotionally dangerous.

>

> I wish more of these would be more broadly published! Thank you so much for

sharing this. I plan to educate the unwary that they better get themselves some

outside assistance if they think they are going to tango with a BPD or NPD and I

no longer care who calls me judgmental (hehehe, the only ones that would are

bleeding heart out of touch new agers or the NPDs or BPDs themselves).

>

> Any way, thanks again!

[Guest guest]

You're welcome!

I think that mental illnesses including the Cluster B personality disorders

occur in a spectrum of severity (much in the same way that our sense of sight

exists within a range of functionality, from excellent vision to total

blindness.)

I agree with you that some with bpd and some " bpd apologists " do not appear to

want to acknowledge that there IS a spectrum of severity and that some

individuals with bpd do have it in an extreme and dangerous form that includes

psychopathic behaviors.

These folks apparently do not want to admit that some with borderline pd engage

in covert child abuse and neglect, stalking, harassing, identity theft,

destruction of property, physical violence / threatening physical violence,

perpetrating smear campaigns in an attempt to destroy their target's good

reputation (libel and slander), making false claims of child abuse with Child

Protective Services, making false claims of elder abuse, etc.

Lying, manipulating, theft, making false claims, physical violence, and child

abuse/molestation/neglect *are* antisocial, psychopathic behaviors.

My stance is: address the behaviors. If a person's behaviors are destructive

and dangerous to themselves or to others, *then deal with it appropriately.*

Protect yourself and your family.

I believe that when these things can be discussed openly and honestly, that's

when real progress can happen. But when the discussion of dangerous and

destructive behaviors is banned or condemned as " insensitive " , " judgmental " or

" showing a lack of compassion " ; when dangerous or destructive behaviors are

ignored, minimized, explained away, " forgiven " or otherwise not openly

addressed... then no progress can be made; then only more abuse and more silent

suffering on the part of the children of such individuals will continue.

-Annie

>

> Wow! Just Wow! What cracks me up is how defensive and all goody two shoes

people go on me when I mention ABUSE, DANGEROUS and NPD or BPD in a sentence as

my own experience calling me inappropriately judgemental and telling me I need

to take accountability for my part of the abuse. Which is???? UGH. I had two

VERY, VERY ANTI-SOCIAL and DANGEROUS people in my life. They are so flipping

charming and good at hiding their psychoses - Calling them unsafe is being

really polite. One was my husband (NPD) the other is so clearly my BPD nada.

She is way anti-social in her behavior...manipulative as the day is long. When

i read these articles I always sigh thinking " Tell me what I don't know. " Some

BPDs and NPDs are worse than rattle snakes and in my opinion always correctly

judged at least emotionally dangerous.

>

> I wish more of these would be more broadly published! Thank you so much for

sharing this. I plan to educate the unwary that they better get themselves some

outside assistance if they think they are going to tango with a BPD or NPD and I

no longer care who calls me judgmental (hehehe, the only ones that would are

bleeding heart out of touch new agers or the NPDs or BPDs themselves).

>

> Any way, thanks again!

[Guest guest]

I'm with you there. Great assessment. There can be no understanding until the

problem...until this tragedy is discussed openly without fear of judgment and

retribution. Victims can't heal without telling their story. If people don't

want to hear it, they can say so but to take a step further and try to attack or

insult a victim or to sweep us under the rug, I'm sorry, that's just not going

to happen! I don't beat up on me, I don't let nada beat up on me and I will not

allow the spiritually elite abuse me either! LOL

> >

> > Wow! Just Wow! What cracks me up is how defensive and all goody two shoes

people go on me when I mention ABUSE, DANGEROUS and NPD or BPD in a sentence as

my own experience calling me inappropriately judgemental and telling me I need

to take accountability for my part of the abuse. Which is???? UGH. I had two

VERY, VERY ANTI-SOCIAL and DANGEROUS people in my life. They are so flipping

charming and good at hiding their psychoses - Calling them unsafe is being

really polite. One was my husband (NPD) the other is so clearly my BPD nada.

She is way anti-social in her behavior...manipulative as the day is long. When

i read these articles I always sigh thinking " Tell me what I don't know. " Some

BPDs and NPDs are worse than rattle snakes and in my opinion always correctly

judged at least emotionally dangerous.

> >

> > I wish more of these would be more broadly published! Thank you so much for

sharing this. I plan to educate the unwary that they better get themselves some

outside assistance if they think they are going to tango with a BPD or NPD and I

no longer care who calls me judgmental (hehehe, the only ones that would are

bleeding heart out of touch new agers or the NPDs or BPDs themselves).

> >

> > Any way, thanks again!

>

[Guest guest]

I'm with you there. Great assessment. There can be no understanding until the

problem...until this tragedy is discussed openly without fear of judgment and

retribution. Victims can't heal without telling their story. If people don't

want to hear it, they can say so but to take a step further and try to attack or

insult a victim or to sweep us under the rug, I'm sorry, that's just not going

to happen! I don't beat up on me, I don't let nada beat up on me and I will not

allow the spiritually elite abuse me either! LOL

> >

> > Wow! Just Wow! What cracks me up is how defensive and all goody two shoes

people go on me when I mention ABUSE, DANGEROUS and NPD or BPD in a sentence as

my own experience calling me inappropriately judgemental and telling me I need

to take accountability for my part of the abuse. Which is???? UGH. I had two

VERY, VERY ANTI-SOCIAL and DANGEROUS people in my life. They are so flipping

charming and good at hiding their psychoses - Calling them unsafe is being

really polite. One was my husband (NPD) the other is so clearly my BPD nada.

She is way anti-social in her behavior...manipulative as the day is long. When

i read these articles I always sigh thinking " Tell me what I don't know. " Some

BPDs and NPDs are worse than rattle snakes and in my opinion always correctly

judged at least emotionally dangerous.

> >

> > I wish more of these would be more broadly published! Thank you so much for

sharing this. I plan to educate the unwary that they better get themselves some

outside assistance if they think they are going to tango with a BPD or NPD and I

no longer care who calls me judgmental (hehehe, the only ones that would are

bleeding heart out of touch new agers or the NPDs or BPDs themselves).

> >

> > Any way, thanks again!

>

[Guest guest]

I'm with you there. Great assessment. There can be no understanding until the

problem...until this tragedy is discussed openly without fear of judgment and

retribution. Victims can't heal without telling their story. If people don't

want to hear it, they can say so but to take a step further and try to attack or

insult a victim or to sweep us under the rug, I'm sorry, that's just not going

to happen! I don't beat up on me, I don't let nada beat up on me and I will not

allow the spiritually elite abuse me either! LOL

> >

> > Wow! Just Wow! What cracks me up is how defensive and all goody two shoes

people go on me when I mention ABUSE, DANGEROUS and NPD or BPD in a sentence as

my own experience calling me inappropriately judgemental and telling me I need

to take accountability for my part of the abuse. Which is???? UGH. I had two

VERY, VERY ANTI-SOCIAL and DANGEROUS people in my life. They are so flipping

charming and good at hiding their psychoses - Calling them unsafe is being

really polite. One was my husband (NPD) the other is so clearly my BPD nada.

She is way anti-social in her behavior...manipulative as the day is long. When

i read these articles I always sigh thinking " Tell me what I don't know. " Some

BPDs and NPDs are worse than rattle snakes and in my opinion always correctly

judged at least emotionally dangerous.

> >

> > I wish more of these would be more broadly published! Thank you so much for

sharing this. I plan to educate the unwary that they better get themselves some

outside assistance if they think they are going to tango with a BPD or NPD and I

no longer care who calls me judgmental (hehehe, the only ones that would are

bleeding heart out of touch new agers or the NPDs or BPDs themselves).

> >

> > Any way, thanks again!

>

[Guest guest]

Woohoo...because DH is still working on his thesis at an university (while

getting started on his second masters) he had the good fortune because that

university's library subscribes to Behavioral Sciences and the Law, and thus

we were able to find the article in PDF! It provides data tables on their

research, and is quite helpful.

I'd gladly share the copy of the PDF, but I don't know what the copyright

laws are, very well. I don't want to accidentally overstep any bounds. I do

advise that you check with your library, or if you are in school, check with

that school's library holdings. Some academic libraries offer free ILL

(interlibrary loan), some charge a small fee.

So if anyone has some knowledge of copyright laws, please, let me know so I

know whether I can share the PDF...

Holly

On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 4:26 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article

> promoting the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related

> to psychopathy than previously considered.

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother

> seems to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from

> time to time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap

> between the diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that

> these traits and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of

> psychopathy.

>

> Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

>

>

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

>

> A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a

> subscriber to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't

> been able to locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about

> it:

>

> " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

> psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

> previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

>

> Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

> Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

>

> Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE

> my wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

> " psychopathy lite " ?

>

> It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

> well.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Woohoo...because DH is still working on his thesis at an university (while

getting started on his second masters) he had the good fortune because that

university's library subscribes to Behavioral Sciences and the Law, and thus

we were able to find the article in PDF! It provides data tables on their

research, and is quite helpful.

I'd gladly share the copy of the PDF, but I don't know what the copyright

laws are, very well. I don't want to accidentally overstep any bounds. I do

advise that you check with your library, or if you are in school, check with

that school's library holdings. Some academic libraries offer free ILL

(interlibrary loan), some charge a small fee.

So if anyone has some knowledge of copyright laws, please, let me know so I

know whether I can share the PDF...

Holly

On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 4:26 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article

> promoting the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related

> to psychopathy than previously considered.

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother

> seems to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from

> time to time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap

> between the diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that

> these traits and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of

> psychopathy.

>

> Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

>

>

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

>

> A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a

> subscriber to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't

> been able to locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about

> it:

>

> " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

> psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

> previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

>

> Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

> Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

>

> Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE

> my wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

> " psychopathy lite " ?

>

> It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

> well.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Woohoo...because DH is still working on his thesis at an university (while

getting started on his second masters) he had the good fortune because that

university's library subscribes to Behavioral Sciences and the Law, and thus

we were able to find the article in PDF! It provides data tables on their

research, and is quite helpful.

I'd gladly share the copy of the PDF, but I don't know what the copyright

laws are, very well. I don't want to accidentally overstep any bounds. I do

advise that you check with your library, or if you are in school, check with

that school's library holdings. Some academic libraries offer free ILL

(interlibrary loan), some charge a small fee.

So if anyone has some knowledge of copyright laws, please, let me know so I

know whether I can share the PDF...

Holly

On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 4:26 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article

> promoting the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related

> to psychopathy than previously considered.

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother

> seems to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from

> time to time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap

> between the diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that

> these traits and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of

> psychopathy.

>

> Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

>

>

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

>

> A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a

> subscriber to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't

> been able to locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about

> it:

>

> " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

> psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

> previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

>

> Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

> Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

>

> Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE

> my wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

> " psychopathy lite " ?

>

> It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

> well.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

That's terrific that your husband has access so that both of you can read the

whole article! I think you're right that its probably not legal to re-post it

without permission. I wrote an e-mail to the publication and asked how much it

would cost to gain access to it as a PDF file; and if its not very much, I'll

ask them if downloading it means I can quote parts of it for public consumption.

I'm mainly interested in reading the conclusion: the results of the study.

Thanks!

-Annie

>

> Woohoo...because DH is still working on his thesis at an university (while

> getting started on his second masters) he had the good fortune because that

> university's library subscribes to Behavioral Sciences and the Law, and thus

> we were able to find the article in PDF! It provides data tables on their

> research, and is quite helpful.

>

> I'd gladly share the copy of the PDF, but I don't know what the copyright

> laws are, very well. I don't want to accidentally overstep any bounds. I do

> advise that you check with your library, or if you are in school, check with

> that school's library holdings. Some academic libraries offer free ILL

> (interlibrary loan), some charge a small fee.

>

> So if anyone has some knowledge of copyright laws, please, let me know so I

> know whether I can share the PDF...

>

> Holly

[Guest guest]

That's terrific that your husband has access so that both of you can read the

whole article! I think you're right that its probably not legal to re-post it

without permission. I wrote an e-mail to the publication and asked how much it

would cost to gain access to it as a PDF file; and if its not very much, I'll

ask them if downloading it means I can quote parts of it for public consumption.

I'm mainly interested in reading the conclusion: the results of the study.

Thanks!

-Annie

>

> Woohoo...because DH is still working on his thesis at an university (while

> getting started on his second masters) he had the good fortune because that

> university's library subscribes to Behavioral Sciences and the Law, and thus

> we were able to find the article in PDF! It provides data tables on their

> research, and is quite helpful.

>

> I'd gladly share the copy of the PDF, but I don't know what the copyright

> laws are, very well. I don't want to accidentally overstep any bounds. I do

> advise that you check with your library, or if you are in school, check with

> that school's library holdings. Some academic libraries offer free ILL

> (interlibrary loan), some charge a small fee.

>

> So if anyone has some knowledge of copyright laws, please, let me know so I

> know whether I can share the PDF...

>

> Holly

[Guest guest]

That's terrific that your husband has access so that both of you can read the

whole article! I think you're right that its probably not legal to re-post it

without permission. I wrote an e-mail to the publication and asked how much it

would cost to gain access to it as a PDF file; and if its not very much, I'll

ask them if downloading it means I can quote parts of it for public consumption.

I'm mainly interested in reading the conclusion: the results of the study.

Thanks!

-Annie

>

> Woohoo...because DH is still working on his thesis at an university (while

> getting started on his second masters) he had the good fortune because that

> university's library subscribes to Behavioral Sciences and the Law, and thus

> we were able to find the article in PDF! It provides data tables on their

> research, and is quite helpful.

>

> I'd gladly share the copy of the PDF, but I don't know what the copyright

> laws are, very well. I don't want to accidentally overstep any bounds. I do

> advise that you check with your library, or if you are in school, check with

> that school's library holdings. Some academic libraries offer free ILL

> (interlibrary loan), some charge a small fee.

>

> So if anyone has some knowledge of copyright laws, please, let me know so I

> know whether I can share the PDF...

>

> Holly

[Guest guest]

Great article Annie!

It makes sense given the paranoia/violence and complete lack of empathy/sympathy

towards others that my mother has. Oh, and my fatherss complete selfishness.

>

> Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article promoting

the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related to

psychopathy than previously considered.

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother seems

to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from time to

time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap between the

diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that these traits

and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of psychopathy.

>

> Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

>

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

>

> A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a subscriber

to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't been able to

locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about it:

>

> " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

>

> Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

>

> Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE my

wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

" psychopathy lite " ?

>

> It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

well.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Great article Annie!

It makes sense given the paranoia/violence and complete lack of empathy/sympathy

towards others that my mother has. Oh, and my fatherss complete selfishness.

>

> Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article promoting

the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related to

psychopathy than previously considered.

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother seems

to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from time to

time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap between the

diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that these traits

and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of psychopathy.

>

> Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

>

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

>

> A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a subscriber

to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't been able to

locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about it:

>

> " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

>

> Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

>

> Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE my

wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

" psychopathy lite " ?

>

> It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

well.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

My own take on this is that the personality-disordered individual (and I'm

referring to those with Cluster B pds and those with psychopathic pd) will

target certain individuals for specific reasons, but it boils down to: the pd

individual will attack someone whom they feel they have the right to attack

(sense of entitlement, feeling justified) IF they can get away with attacking

this person.

So they choose someone who can't fight back because they're smaller, weaker,

dependent on the pd individual or in a power-down position in relation to the pd

individual: someone who can't or won't tell/ " out " them out of love or loyalty,

someone who they believe can't or won't leave them, someone who has no authority

over the pd individual and/or someone they feel they " own. " This would mostly

be close family members, employees, domestic servants, service persons

(waitresses, clerks) or clients/patients (elderly, frail, ill, mentally

deficient, bedridden, Alzheimers, etc.) who are unable to defend themselves.

All I know is that my bpd/npd mom was/is rather charming and servile around

those whom she considers her social betters or those in authority or

power-positions over her; she only treated/treats us kids, dad, and her own

older sister badly, for the most part. Although, I have to say that early on I

realized it wasn't a good idea for me to have my friends over to play at my

house, at it would tend to irritate nada and she was likely to scream at me and

humiliate me in front of my friends, so, she felt it was OK to treat other

people's children badly, too.

So, seems to me that either a non-criminal or a criminal pd individual will

target someone as a victim based on whether they can get away with their desired

use of that targeted person or not.

-Annie

>

> I have a question - I think most of us are familiar with the fact that the

> personality disordered and sociopaths tend to attack the people who are

> close to them. They leave strangers alone. There are more rare cases of

> sociopaths who target strangers.

>

> My question is this - why do the sociopaths attack their children, students,

> spouses, siblings, boyscout troups and co-workers etc instead of strangers?

> Is it just easier to do? Or are those kids more vulnerable because they are

> in their care or social circle?

>

> I guess I'm thinking like a loving person and not like a sociopath, but I

> can't imagine attacking a child in my care and trying to destroy their

> individuality like my nada did to me.

>

> Thanks guys.

[Guest guest]

My own take on this is that the personality-disordered individual (and I'm

referring to those with Cluster B pds and those with psychopathic pd) will

target certain individuals for specific reasons, but it boils down to: the pd

individual will attack someone whom they feel they have the right to attack

(sense of entitlement, feeling justified) IF they can get away with attacking

this person.

So they choose someone who can't fight back because they're smaller, weaker,

dependent on the pd individual or in a power-down position in relation to the pd

individual: someone who can't or won't tell/ " out " them out of love or loyalty,

someone who they believe can't or won't leave them, someone who has no authority

over the pd individual and/or someone they feel they " own. " This would mostly

be close family members, employees, domestic servants, service persons

(waitresses, clerks) or clients/patients (elderly, frail, ill, mentally

deficient, bedridden, Alzheimers, etc.) who are unable to defend themselves.

All I know is that my bpd/npd mom was/is rather charming and servile around

those whom she considers her social betters or those in authority or

power-positions over her; she only treated/treats us kids, dad, and her own

older sister badly, for the most part. Although, I have to say that early on I

realized it wasn't a good idea for me to have my friends over to play at my

house, at it would tend to irritate nada and she was likely to scream at me and

humiliate me in front of my friends, so, she felt it was OK to treat other

people's children badly, too.

So, seems to me that either a non-criminal or a criminal pd individual will

target someone as a victim based on whether they can get away with their desired

use of that targeted person or not.

-Annie

>

> I have a question - I think most of us are familiar with the fact that the

> personality disordered and sociopaths tend to attack the people who are

> close to them. They leave strangers alone. There are more rare cases of

> sociopaths who target strangers.

>

> My question is this - why do the sociopaths attack their children, students,

> spouses, siblings, boyscout troups and co-workers etc instead of strangers?

> Is it just easier to do? Or are those kids more vulnerable because they are

> in their care or social circle?

>

> I guess I'm thinking like a loving person and not like a sociopath, but I

> can't imagine attacking a child in my care and trying to destroy their

> individuality like my nada did to me.

>

> Thanks guys.

[Guest guest]

Annie, I think you are right. Thank you

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 2:13 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> My own take on this is that the personality-disordered individual (and I'm

> referring to those with Cluster B pds and those with psychopathic pd) will

> target certain individuals for specific reasons, but it boils down to: the

> pd individual will attack someone whom they feel they have the right to

> attack (sense of entitlement, feeling justified) IF they can get away with

> attacking this person.

>

> So they choose someone who can't fight back because they're smaller,

> weaker, dependent on the pd individual or in a power-down position in

> relation to the pd individual: someone who can't or won't tell/ " out " them

> out of love or loyalty, someone who they believe can't or won't leave them,

> someone who has no authority over the pd individual and/or someone they feel

> they " own. " This would mostly be close family members, employees, domestic

> servants, service persons (waitresses, clerks) or clients/patients (elderly,

> frail, ill, mentally deficient, bedridden, Alzheimers, etc.) who are unable

> to defend themselves.

>

> All I know is that my bpd/npd mom was/is rather charming and servile around

> those whom she considers her social betters or those in authority or

> power-positions over her; she only treated/treats us kids, dad, and her own

> older sister badly, for the most part. Although, I have to say that early on

> I realized it wasn't a good idea for me to have my friends over to play at

> my house, at it would tend to irritate nada and she was likely to scream at

> me and humiliate me in front of my friends, so, she felt it was OK to treat

> other people's children badly, too.

>

> So, seems to me that either a non-criminal or a criminal pd individual will

> target someone as a victim based on whether they can get away with their

> desired use of that targeted person or not.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > I have a question - I think most of us are familiar with the fact that

> the

> > personality disordered and sociopaths tend to attack the people who are

> > close to them. They leave strangers alone. There are more rare cases of

> > sociopaths who target strangers.

> >

> > My question is this - why do the sociopaths attack their children,

> students,

> > spouses, siblings, boyscout troups and co-workers etc instead of

> strangers?

> > Is it just easier to do? Or are those kids more vulnerable because they

> are

> > in their care or social circle?

> >

> > I guess I'm thinking like a loving person and not like a sociopath, but I

> > can't imagine attacking a child in my care and trying to destroy their

> > individuality like my nada did to me.

> >

> > Thanks guys.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Annie, I think you are right. Thank you

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 2:13 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> My own take on this is that the personality-disordered individual (and I'm

> referring to those with Cluster B pds and those with psychopathic pd) will

> target certain individuals for specific reasons, but it boils down to: the

> pd individual will attack someone whom they feel they have the right to

> attack (sense of entitlement, feeling justified) IF they can get away with

> attacking this person.

>

> So they choose someone who can't fight back because they're smaller,

> weaker, dependent on the pd individual or in a power-down position in

> relation to the pd individual: someone who can't or won't tell/ " out " them

> out of love or loyalty, someone who they believe can't or won't leave them,

> someone who has no authority over the pd individual and/or someone they feel

> they " own. " This would mostly be close family members, employees, domestic

> servants, service persons (waitresses, clerks) or clients/patients (elderly,

> frail, ill, mentally deficient, bedridden, Alzheimers, etc.) who are unable

> to defend themselves.

>

> All I know is that my bpd/npd mom was/is rather charming and servile around

> those whom she considers her social betters or those in authority or

> power-positions over her; she only treated/treats us kids, dad, and her own

> older sister badly, for the most part. Although, I have to say that early on

> I realized it wasn't a good idea for me to have my friends over to play at

> my house, at it would tend to irritate nada and she was likely to scream at

> me and humiliate me in front of my friends, so, she felt it was OK to treat

> other people's children badly, too.

>

> So, seems to me that either a non-criminal or a criminal pd individual will

> target someone as a victim based on whether they can get away with their

> desired use of that targeted person or not.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > I have a question - I think most of us are familiar with the fact that

> the

> > personality disordered and sociopaths tend to attack the people who are

> > close to them. They leave strangers alone. There are more rare cases of

> > sociopaths who target strangers.

> >

> > My question is this - why do the sociopaths attack their children,

> students,

> > spouses, siblings, boyscout troups and co-workers etc instead of

> strangers?

> > Is it just easier to do? Or are those kids more vulnerable because they

> are

> > in their care or social circle?

> >

> > I guess I'm thinking like a loving person and not like a sociopath, but I

> > can't imagine attacking a child in my care and trying to destroy their

> > individuality like my nada did to me.

> >

> > Thanks guys.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Annie, I think you are right. Thank you

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 2:13 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> My own take on this is that the personality-disordered individual (and I'm

> referring to those with Cluster B pds and those with psychopathic pd) will

> target certain individuals for specific reasons, but it boils down to: the

> pd individual will attack someone whom they feel they have the right to

> attack (sense of entitlement, feeling justified) IF they can get away with

> attacking this person.

>

> So they choose someone who can't fight back because they're smaller,

> weaker, dependent on the pd individual or in a power-down position in

> relation to the pd individual: someone who can't or won't tell/ " out " them

> out of love or loyalty, someone who they believe can't or won't leave them,

> someone who has no authority over the pd individual and/or someone they feel

> they " own. " This would mostly be close family members, employees, domestic

> servants, service persons (waitresses, clerks) or clients/patients (elderly,

> frail, ill, mentally deficient, bedridden, Alzheimers, etc.) who are unable

> to defend themselves.

>

> All I know is that my bpd/npd mom was/is rather charming and servile around

> those whom she considers her social betters or those in authority or

> power-positions over her; she only treated/treats us kids, dad, and her own

> older sister badly, for the most part. Although, I have to say that early on

> I realized it wasn't a good idea for me to have my friends over to play at

> my house, at it would tend to irritate nada and she was likely to scream at

> me and humiliate me in front of my friends, so, she felt it was OK to treat

> other people's children badly, too.

>

> So, seems to me that either a non-criminal or a criminal pd individual will

> target someone as a victim based on whether they can get away with their

> desired use of that targeted person or not.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > I have a question - I think most of us are familiar with the fact that

> the

> > personality disordered and sociopaths tend to attack the people who are

> > close to them. They leave strangers alone. There are more rare cases of

> > sociopaths who target strangers.

> >

> > My question is this - why do the sociopaths attack their children,

> students,

> > spouses, siblings, boyscout troups and co-workers etc instead of

> strangers?

> > Is it just easier to do? Or are those kids more vulnerable because they

> are

> > in their care or social circle?

> >

> > I guess I'm thinking like a loving person and not like a sociopath, but I

> > can't imagine attacking a child in my care and trying to destroy their

> > individuality like my nada did to me.

> >

> > Thanks guys.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm still somewhat on the fence about lumping sociopaths and ClusterB's

together...more on that later, but Girlscout here's my two cents on your

question:

- for cluster b's (not sociopaths) they attack those closest to them because

those people are the greatest threat to their non-existent since of self. It is

those close to them that can trigger the crazy inside of them *because* they

matter. A stranger's actions has much less impact on the PD'd person's

self-esteem or core which is so very fragile.

- for sociopaths they attack those around them because they are available, they

are there, they have the most information on them to use to manipulate them

with. And of course the more power and proximity they've got with someone the

more their sociopathic side will " come out to play " .

While I do see some sociopathic traits in my nada who might also have NPD as

well, most of her actions her self-protective. Ultimately she's trying to

shore up an incredible fragile sense of self which feels pain for irrational

reasons from normal human interactions. Her actions of defense become attack

on the outside. I have personally known a couple of sociopaths and their

actions come from a different place. They aren't acting to protect a fragile

core - they are acting for their own pleasure. They *enjoy* manipulating people

like puppets on a string, it is a matter of skill and fun to them.

Do I believe some Cluster B's have sociopathic tendencies as well...absolutely.

But I think we have to determine what the core motivation is for their

manipulation and their lying - is it ultimately for their own defense (from

their perspective) or for power and amusement? To me that's that's the

difference between the BPD and sociopath.

>

> I have a question - I think most of us are familiar with the fact that the

> personality disordered and sociopaths tend to attack the people who are

> close to them. They leave strangers alone. There are more rare cases of

> sociopaths who target strangers.

>

> My question is this - why do the sociopaths attack their children, students,

> spouses, siblings, boyscout troups and co-workers etc instead of strangers?

> Is it just easier to do? Or are those kids more vulnerable because they are

> in their care or social circle?

>

> I guess I'm thinking like a loving person and not like a sociopath, but I

> can't imagine attacking a child in my care and trying to destroy their

> individuality like my nada did to me.

>

> Thanks guys.

>

[Guest guest]

I'm still somewhat on the fence about lumping sociopaths and ClusterB's

together...more on that later, but Girlscout here's my two cents on your

question:

- for cluster b's (not sociopaths) they attack those closest to them because

those people are the greatest threat to their non-existent since of self. It is

those close to them that can trigger the crazy inside of them *because* they

matter. A stranger's actions has much less impact on the PD'd person's

self-esteem or core which is so very fragile.

- for sociopaths they attack those around them because they are available, they

are there, they have the most information on them to use to manipulate them

with. And of course the more power and proximity they've got with someone the

more their sociopathic side will " come out to play " .

While I do see some sociopathic traits in my nada who might also have NPD as

well, most of her actions her self-protective. Ultimately she's trying to

shore up an incredible fragile sense of self which feels pain for irrational

reasons from normal human interactions. Her actions of defense become attack

on the outside. I have personally known a couple of sociopaths and their

actions come from a different place. They aren't acting to protect a fragile

core - they are acting for their own pleasure. They *enjoy* manipulating people

like puppets on a string, it is a matter of skill and fun to them.

Do I believe some Cluster B's have sociopathic tendencies as well...absolutely.

But I think we have to determine what the core motivation is for their

manipulation and their lying - is it ultimately for their own defense (from

their perspective) or for power and amusement? To me that's that's the

difference between the BPD and sociopath.

>

> I have a question - I think most of us are familiar with the fact that the

> personality disordered and sociopaths tend to attack the people who are

> close to them. They leave strangers alone. There are more rare cases of

> sociopaths who target strangers.

>

> My question is this - why do the sociopaths attack their children, students,

> spouses, siblings, boyscout troups and co-workers etc instead of strangers?

> Is it just easier to do? Or are those kids more vulnerable because they are

> in their care or social circle?

>

> I guess I'm thinking like a loving person and not like a sociopath, but I

> can't imagine attacking a child in my care and trying to destroy their

> individuality like my nada did to me.

>

> Thanks guys.

>

[Guest guest]

I'm still somewhat on the fence about lumping sociopaths and ClusterB's

together...more on that later, but Girlscout here's my two cents on your

question:

- for cluster b's (not sociopaths) they attack those closest to them because

those people are the greatest threat to their non-existent since of self. It is

those close to them that can trigger the crazy inside of them *because* they

matter. A stranger's actions has much less impact on the PD'd person's

self-esteem or core which is so very fragile.

- for sociopaths they attack those around them because they are available, they

are there, they have the most information on them to use to manipulate them

with. And of course the more power and proximity they've got with someone the

more their sociopathic side will " come out to play " .

While I do see some sociopathic traits in my nada who might also have NPD as

well, most of her actions her self-protective. Ultimately she's trying to

shore up an incredible fragile sense of self which feels pain for irrational

reasons from normal human interactions. Her actions of defense become attack

on the outside. I have personally known a couple of sociopaths and their

actions come from a different place. They aren't acting to protect a fragile

core - they are acting for their own pleasure. They *enjoy* manipulating people

like puppets on a string, it is a matter of skill and fun to them.

Do I believe some Cluster B's have sociopathic tendencies as well...absolutely.

But I think we have to determine what the core motivation is for their

manipulation and their lying - is it ultimately for their own defense (from

their perspective) or for power and amusement? To me that's that's the

difference between the BPD and sociopath.

>

> I have a question - I think most of us are familiar with the fact that the

> personality disordered and sociopaths tend to attack the people who are

> close to them. They leave strangers alone. There are more rare cases of

> sociopaths who target strangers.

>

> My question is this - why do the sociopaths attack their children, students,

> spouses, siblings, boyscout troups and co-workers etc instead of strangers?

> Is it just easier to do? Or are those kids more vulnerable because they are

> in their care or social circle?

>

> I guess I'm thinking like a loving person and not like a sociopath, but I

> can't imagine attacking a child in my care and trying to destroy their

> individuality like my nada did to me.

>

> Thanks guys.

>